(title edited -matt)

Sucko for Brevin Knight and a pick


EDIT: The third post in this thread should be the first post. -Glenn

^Wet dream.

Darko trade rumors/speculation.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/printedition/cs-060206smith,1,4570528.column?coll=cs-sports-print


Begging last week for trades: Denver's Earl Watson, Toronto's Eric Williams and Seattle's Danny Fortson. The talk is a top-10 draft pick will give you a shot at Detroit's Darko Milicic.

The issue right now is that you don't know which teams are going to be top ten pick teams as the league is so mediocre outside the elite teams.

Sucko for Brevin Knight and a pick


I'd do Darko & Arroyo for Knight, Jumaine Jones (backup for Tay, expiring deal) and a future 1st.

Would they?

We'd immediately be improving the value of that 1st by sending them Darko, especially if they play him.

Bobcats seem to balk at spending cash...so they might not want to pick up Darko only to find out that they can't afford him or don't want to pony up the necessary funds.

Charlotte would want to protect the pick - and that's something I wouldn't want to do considering the could improve rather quickly if they got a Morrison or Gay in this years draft, added to a healthy Okafor and Raymond Felton.

Maybe if the deal was that they'd have to trade their top three pick to fall back in the draft(no later than 8th) and then send us that pick sorta deal. This way they'd still be getting rewarded for winning the lottery as they'd be getting a solid player in return for droping from top three to eighth(at worst).

The issue right now is that you don't know which teams are going to be top ten pick teams as the league is so mediocre outside the elite teams.

the seasons half over...the bobcats have one of the worst records no?

yes....I like arroyo though....lets get ray felton so esther baxter can come to all the games [smilie=arrgh.jpg]

Yeah Charlotte is a non-playoff team, however they'll want to top three protect their pick(if not more). And with a real chance they end up with at worst the 4th pick, we wouldn't get their pick this year. Next year might be a better draft class, however they could be a play-off team this time next year wit Okafor, Milicic, Felton and Morrison sorta deal.

Looking at the standings I onl think you can say five teams are locks to miss the play-offs - Charlotte, Atlanta, NYK, Portland and probably Seattle.

I'd do something with Atlanta where we'd send them Milicic for an unprotected first round pick, but I don't think they'd touch that. And much like the Charlotte situation. They get an Aldridge or Morrison trade their pick for a true pointguard and they could be a play-off team next year and they'd owe PHX the pick first.

Nic (Mt. Pleasant): Does any team think they can make darko into an nba player and if so what do you think the pistons can get for him?

John Hollinger: (3:39 PM ET ) You'd be surprised how many teams still think highly of him. The Pistons could get a decent player or a fairly high draft pick for him even now.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=10749

Nic (Mt. Pleasant): Does any team think they can make darko into an nba player and if so what do you think the pistons can get for him?

John Hollinger: (3:39 PM ET ) You'd be surprised how many teams still think highly of him. The Pistons could get a decent player or a fairly high draft pick for him even now.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=10749

I want both a decent player for him and a fairly high draft pick.

Nic (Mt. Pleasant): Does any team think they can make darko into an nba player and if so what do you think the pistons can get for him?

John Hollinger: (3:39 PM ET ) You'd be surprised how many teams still think highly of him. The Pistons could get a decent player or a fairly high draft pick for him even now.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=10749

I want both a decent player for him and a fairly high draft pick.

All I want is for Tay and Gecko to stop fighting.

Nic (Mt. Pleasant): Does any team think they can make darko into an nba player and if so what do you think the pistons can get for him?

John Hollinger: (3:39 PM ET ) You'd be surprised how many teams still think highly of him. The Pistons could get a decent player or a fairly high draft pick for him even now.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=10749

I want both a decent player for him and a fairly high draft pick.

All I want is for Tay and Gecko to stop fighting.

LOL. I love Tay. I respect him and I know he feels the same about me. Just wait until the next election. Fists a flying.

Nic (Mt. Pleasant): Does any team think they can make darko into an nba player and if so what do you think the pistons can get for him?

John Hollinger: (3:39 PM ET ) You'd be surprised how many teams still think highly of him. The Pistons could get a decent player or a fairly high draft pick for him even now.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=10749

I want both a decent player for him and a fairly high draft pick.

All I want is for Tay and Gecko to stop fighting.

LOL. I love Tay. I respect him and I know he feels the same about me. Just wait until the next election. Fists a flying.

http://www.personal.psu.edu/syy106/hug.JPG

Any chance Portland would give up either Blake or Dixon for Darko? It gives us someone to backup Chauncey when Arroyo is feeling eratic (often) and Lindsey is feelings 47 (even more often). Maybe we can even send one of those two along (they could keep Arroyo and maybe even start him or Lindsey is an expiring deal) and our pick for their pick.

Bah--I don't like it at all straight up. But say Blake or Dixon/pick for Darko/Arroyo I would think about.

This has been rumored for a while now, I wonder why they are re-reporting it now?

http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060211/SPORTS/602110324/1002/SPORTS


Magic may do a deal with Pistons

BY JOHN DENTON
FLORIDA TODAY

ORLANDO - The Orlando Magic have made inquiries into possibly trading for Detroit Pistons reserve power forward Darko Milicic and point guard Carlos Arroyo, but assistant general manager Otis Smith said no deal is imminent.

The Magic could be offering reserve center Kelvin Cato, who has played just 23 games this season because of ankle, foot and shoulder injuries. The 6-foot-11, 275-pound center hasn't played since Jan. 18 after spraining his ankle. Cato has a cracked bone in his right foot and isn't expected to play until after the All-Star break.

If healthy, Cato could give the Pistons another center for the playoffs against possible foes Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan and Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

Detroit might be willing to make Milicic, 20, available considering the tremendously disappointing start to his career. He was the second overall choice of the 2003 NBA Draft -- ahead of Carmelo Anthony, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh and Kirk Hinrich -- but has played sparingly the past three seasons, scoring just 152 points in 95 games.

He's played a total of 137 minutes in 24 games this season.

Arroyo is expendable now that Lindsey Hunter is back after missing the first three months of the season with surgery on his left ankle.

"We've talked with them, but we've talked to a lot of teams," Smith said. "I still like the team that we've assembled, but we just haven't been able to see it together because of injuries. So we're having to look at some different things. You can't just be stagnant. Like they say, if you're not getting better, you're getting worse."

For crissakes, we're not going to deal Arroyo and Milicic for Kelvin freaking Cato. Keep dreaming Orlando.

I could see Cato and an unprotected 1st

or

Cato and Nelson

or

a combo of those in a three way deal where we send Cato and his expiring deal somewhere for a PG

or

Cato and some premium Amway products

I'd want Cato, Nelson and a protected first to even consider such a deal. And I'd keep Cato, for depth as Milicic was supposed top be part of our big man depth this season.

Milicic is a 7'1" 260lb lefty with all the skill and talent in the world, however with a bitchmade attitude(that will probably be cured with PT). Jameer Nelson is a fine pointguard, but his level of talent is really not too hard to find.

Orlando would have to drool at the prospects of Howard and Milicic in their frontcourt for the next decade.

The Magic could be offering reserve center Kelvin Cato, who has played just 23 games this season because of ankle, foot and shoulder injuries

ankle, foot, and shoulder injuries??

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3185/career

the guy's never played a full NBA season, is injury prone, and he's 32 years old. why on earth would we want him?

The Magic could be offering reserve center Kelvin Cato, who has played just 23 games this season because of ankle, foot and shoulder injuries

ankle, foot, and shoulder injuries??

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3185/career

the guy's never played a full NBA season, is injury prone, and he's 32 years old. why on earth would we want him?

Because he is an expiring contract and Detroit needs to free up cap space to re-sign Ben Wallace this off-season

How seriously is Nelson injured?

A little birdy tells me that there is really something going on here with Joe and Orlando.

And no, I can't elaborate.

Darko in a Magic uniform? The wrath of diddy probably creamed his pants at the idea.

Hurons posted in his blog about talking ot Milicic's peeps(friends/roomates/hangers on) after a recent game at the Palace and the posse indicated that Milicic is on his way out and even mentioned Orlando as a likely destination. Of course they added that Detroit will regret it.

Also I can't find the source but it is being said that a local Detroit beat writer "killed" any Milicic deal saying that Dumars had decided to keep him unless he got a blow away offer, instead content to watch Milicic play in the World Championships this summer and make a decision then whether to cut his losses or move McDyess and make room for Milicic in the Big 3. If the local beat writer is McCosky, he's writing exactly what Dumars is telling him to to try and raise the return in any Milicic deal, if it's one of the more legit scribes, he might be going nowhere.

re: Nelson

I found this on NBA.com in their fantasy section (blurb was dated 2/10/06).


Nelson had a nice little run of fantasy production, but a sprained right foot has caused him to miss the last nine games. Now wearing a protective boot, I would not expect Nelson back for another two weeks.

I'd definitely trade Darko, Arroyo, and Minnesota's 2nd rounder for Cato, Nelson, and a top 3 protected first rounder. I wonder if Orlando would.

With as much as we're going to be paying our starters, we're going to have to build our bench through the draft, because we're not going to be able to afford to use our entire MLE every year. Orlando currently has the 9th pick in the draft, so it'd be protected if they got lucky in the lottery. Nelson would be a great PG backup for Chauncey.

This is what I have heard, a few weeks ago, appox Jan 25th:


Orlando and Detroit are trying to hammer out a deal. They said a deal is a strong posibility at this point.

The orginal offer was Kato and a first for Darko and Arroyo. Joe countered with the fact he wanted Nelson and the pick with Cato. The Magic said no.

However recently the Magic countered with Cato, Vasquez and Nelson for Darko, Arroyo, and the Minny second. Joe apparently then replied with another counter. Darko, Arroyo the Minny second and a future first for Cato, Vasquez, Nelson and an unprotected first.

Joe likes Vasquez but rumor has it he may not be interesting coming overseas for another year or two, so Joe wants a lottery pick if that is true.

Talks have been slow but steady it should be noted Joe has several quaility offers on the table, but I don't know what McCoskey or Joe consider a blow you away deal?

This is what I have heard, a few weeks ago, appox Jan 25th:


Orlando and Detroit are trying to hammer out a deal. They said a deal is a strong posibility at this point.

The orginal offer was Kato and a first for Darko and Arroyo. Joe countered with the fact he wanted Nelson and the pick with Cato. The Magic said no.

However recently the Magic countered with Cato, Vasquez and Nelson for Darko, Arroyo, and the Minny second. Joe apparently then replied with another counter. Darko, Arroyo the Minny second and a future first for Cato, Vasquez, Nelson and an unprotected first.

Joe likes Vasquez but rumor has it he may not be interesting coming overseas for another year or two, so Joe wants a lottery pick if that is true.

Talks have been slow but steady it should be noted Joe has several quaility offers on the table, but I don't know what McCoskey or Joe consider a blow you away deal?

I'd even do the final counter without Vazquez.

Darko, Arroyo, Minnesota's 2nd rounder, and a 2008 1st round draft pick for Cato, Nelson, and Orlando's first rounder, top 5 protected forever.

This is what I have heard, a few weeks ago, appox Jan 25th:


Orlando and Detroit are trying to hammer out a deal. They said a deal is a strong posibility at this point.

The orginal offer was Kato and a first for Darko and Arroyo. Joe countered with the fact he wanted Nelson and the pick with Cato. The Magic said no.

However recently the Magic countered with Cato, Vasquez and Nelson for Darko, Arroyo, and the Minny second. Joe apparently then replied with another counter. Darko, Arroyo the Minny second and a future first for Cato, Vasquez, Nelson and an unprotected first.

Joe likes Vasquez but rumor has it he may not be interesting coming overseas for another year or two, so Joe wants a lottery pick if that is true.

Talks have been slow but steady it should be noted Joe has several quaility offers on the table, but I don't know what McCoskey or Joe consider a blow you away deal?

wow an unprotected first rounder? that'd be nice...any info on Vasquez?

It sounds like Dumars is leaving the door for a counter which would protect the pick a certain level. It has been said that Dumars really likes somebody in this years draft and that is why he is so keen on getting a lottery pick this year. Any ideas??(maybe JJ Redick) However if that is the case, he might not accept a protection.

Orlando has really come up from Cato and a Pick for Milicic and Arroyo though. Now they've agreed to Nelson's inclusion and throw in Vasquez for the Minnesota 2nd rounder. Vasquez coming over in a couple of years wouldn't be bad because we don't have to pay him first round money right now and he'll be coming over when Davis is off the books and Rasheed and Ben start slowing down.

I will be absolutely gobsmacked if this trade happens. Orlando fans will commit mass suicide.

Cato is a nothing player to us, just cap fodder. He'd be out sixth bigman off the bench, though decent insurance. He's probably worth the Minnesota 2nd rounder.

So now the trade is essentially Milicic, Arroyo, and a 2008 first for Jameer Nelson, Fran Vasquez and 2006 first. Orlando made a big time stretch pick when they drafted Vasquez - DraftExpress had him going 22nd and didn't really like him too much. Orlando wanted size and couldn't trade down so they took him at 11. Since he isn't going to come around for a couple of years, our 2008 first rounder will be right around when he decides to come over. Don't forget that we'll have to pay him slotted money. That makes this trade Arroyo and Milicic for Jameer Nelson and an unprotected first rounder, and as long as Orlando doesn't make the play-offs I could live with it. Right now Orlando would have the 8th pick in the draft and is five games behind the 8th seed in the play-offs.

Is 8th pick and Jameer Nelson for Carlos Arroyo and Darko Milicic a solid enough return? It would all depend on your belief in Milicic. DX mock-up has a top eight of Aldridge, Bargnini, Morrison, Gay, Splitter, Thomas, Reddick, and Brewer. After the first four, I think we start losing on the deal if Milicic comes anywhere near his potential

The sooner this happens, the better.

I think Joe would try to sell off Cato to a team looking for cap relief and try to get back a person that could help come playoff time at the 3. A better wing/SF defender would be nice if Tay is sitting. I like Evans and Delfino but I would mind a defensive Hawk who can handle bigger SF's.

Maybe even swap Cato for an expiring deal from a non playoff team like Sac to get back a guy like Wells.

I have heard that NO is looking to move Mason for cap room salaries would match and Mason is an above average defender.

Well Cato's been injured and is always injured. What team would want that? Well actually, I'm willing to bet the Hawks would take him considering the fact their only big is Zaza. Well who knows.

I know we wont get Vascuez nor Nelson.

BTW, if there was a trade, Cato and a First for Arroyo and Darko, that first is i think the 9th pick. (CM says its 8) With that pick, we might be able to get a point in possibly Daniel Gibson out of Texas or Rajon Rondo out of Kentucky. If that were to happen, Hunter could retire and give either of them so help. That only leaves us with 2 problems. WTF do we do with Cato and who is going to be our backup 1? Well signing Atkins to a one year deal would have been smart. It's either Hunter or Acker, I'm going to guess Hunter. I highly doubt the Magic sends us Nelson because Francis is hot under the trade radar. I can see Orlando easily accepting this trade. A front court of Darko and Howard and a pair of guards, Arroyo and Nelson.

I'm just anticipating on what Joe will do.

The sooner this happens, the better.


I agree with Anthony.

Also, this is totally not in the discussion, but does anyone know if Mickael Pietrus is available?

How about Ruben Patterson?? The guy has his off-court issues(Nanny...registered sex offender), but he's intense as hell on the court and a very physical defender. Is Portland really looking to trade him and what would it take?? Are they looking for a salary dump? Cato and Evans for Patterson and fodder??

Chauncey Billups|Jameer Nelson|Lindsay Hunter
Richard Hamilton|Carlos Delfino
Tayshaun Prince|Ruben Patterson
Ben Wallace|Dale Davis
Rasheed Wallace|Antonio McDyess|Jason Maxiell

if we trade darko, we NEED to get a high pick in return. getting nelson and a high pick would be a very good trade.

i'll be sad to see darko go, though.

if he is traded to the magic, my guess is that he'd be a good fantasy pick up. i wouldnt be surprised at all to see him avg 15 and 6. that is assuming he gets thrown in the fire.

How about Ruben Patterson?? The guy has his off-court issues(Nanny...registered sex offender), but he's intense as hell on the court and a very physical defender. Is Portland really looking to trade him and what would it take?? Are they looking for a salary dump? Cato and Evans for Patterson and fodder??

Chauncey Billups|Jameer Nelson|Lindsay Hunter
Richard Hamilton|Carlos Delfino
Tayshaun Prince|Ruben Patterson
Ben Wallace|Dale Davis
Rasheed Wallace|Antonio McDyess|Jason Maxiell

As much as I would like Patterson's defense off the bench, I am not sure adding Patterson to the team would be a good decision, chemistry-wise.

Patterson would be a gamble, but his defense wouldn't be much of a drop off should Prince need to miss time. Would Patterson be happy with twelve-fourteen minutes off Detroit's bench??

It doesn't really matter because it isn't likely to happen unless Detroit is waiting until Nelson is healthy before pulling the trigger sorta deal. We couldn't get Patterson without using Cato's expiring deal as the bait.

Jameer Nelson would give us a back-up point guard with the ability to score - which we need in a back-up with Ben Wallace being a offensive non-entity.

Nelson, Patterson and an unprotected 2006 Orlando first rounder is a solid return for Arroyo, Milicic and a future first rounder.

Arroyo has value in the league, just not for the Pistons. He doesn't have a jumpshot and isn't a scorer. Teams don't respect his shot and will give it too him all the time, and if you put him on the floor with Ben Wallace, you're essentially playing 5-on-3 offensively.

Billups backed up by Nelson, Hamilton backed up by Delfino, Prince backed up by Patterson, Sheed backed up by McDyess and Big Ben backed up by Davis would give us really solid back-ups across the board.

My only problem with Patterson is the fact that he complained about his minutes earlier in the season and I am not sure how he would react to the limited playing time with us.

My only problem with Patterson is the fact that he complained about his minutes earlier in the season and I am not sure how he would react to the limited playing time with us.

It's amazing how people who are complaining about minutes will stop complaining when they are traded from a lottry team to the favorites to win it all!

My only problem with Patterson is the fact that he complained about his minutes earlier in the season and I am not sure how he would react to the limited playing time with us.

It's amazing how people who are complaining about minutes will stop complaining when they are traded from a lottry team to the favorites to win it all!

I agree. It is something Dumars would have to look into. I think it's one thing to be getting fifteen minutes a game in Portland backing up DMiles and Dixon it is another thing altogether playing fifteen minutes a game for a championship contender backing up All-Star Rip Hamilton and Tayshaun Prince. We don't have any rats on this team - like Bruce Bowen, guys who will go hard at players defensively and get under their skin. Nothing dirty, just physical.

Why trade for Patterson when we've got Delfino?

Why trade for Patterson when we've got Delfino?

I'm not comfortable playing Delfino close to 30 minutes yet and I think Delfino is much more effective playing the 2-guard. Besides I don't like Evans and think we could use more depth at the 2/3 and Patterson's defense would be needed should Prince go down for any length of time. Delfino is still too much on an unknown.

I don't think Dumars and Davidson would want him because of his checkered past - especially the whole sex offender registry issue. That's terrible press and probably not worth the hassle.

What about Eric Williams of the Raps...

Yeah, I dont like the idea of Patterson. I do however like Nelson and a pick for Arroyo and Darko and whatever else the deal needs to work.

I agree with B Diddy. We need to get a high pick.

Also, I dont want Patterson. He complained about his minutes. Although he will be on a great team, I dont want to take the risk of having him.

Why trade for Patterson when we've got Delfino?

I'm not comfortable playing Delfino close to 30 minutes yet and I think Delfino is much more effective playing the 2-guard. Besides I don't like Evans and think we could use more depth at the 2/3 and Patterson's defense would be needed should Prince go down for any length of time. Delfino is still too much on an unknown.

I don't buy it. Tayshaun was an "unknown" in the playoffs in '03, but he saved our asses from what I recall. If you don't give him a shot, you will NEVER find out if he can get it done. And I'd be interested to hear what aspects of his game you think he's lacking in? What makes you think he couldn't step in and play 30-ish minutes in case Tayshaun went down or something?



What about Eric Williams of the Raps...

I'd also be interested to hear why you think Eric Williams would be a better option than Delfino in that situation. Is it just because he's older? He's putting up a Darko-esque 1 and 1 on 31% shooting this year in Delfino-like minutes.

I would definately pull the trigger on those deals. I would also send Cato and Evans for Eric Williams just to spell Tay some on defense.

If Darko, Evans, Arroyo and a first can net us Nelson, orlando's first and Eric Williams that would be great. We'd have no holes, and since Darko will never get the PT here to develop...we'd be in great shape with a good pick.

This is from Lee McPherson's Mlive blog:


Orlando offers another deal for Darko
The Pistons confirm to Sports Radio 1130 Detroit Sunday that Orlando has once again asked the pistons about Darko. The Magic are offering a first round pick and Kelvin Cato for Darko and Carlos Arroyo (sic). This is the 2nd time in the last 30 days the Magic have tried to make this deal happen.

This is from Lee McPherson's Mlive blog:


Orlando offers another deal for Darko
The Pistons confirm to Sports Radio 1130 Detroit Sunday that Orlando has once again asked the pistons about Darko. The Magic are offering a first round pick and Kelvin Cato for Darko and Carlos Arroyo (sic). This is the 2nd time in the last 30 days the Magic have tried to make this deal happen.

i just heard WDFN announce the rumored deal proposal as well.

DO THIS DEAL, JOE!!!

As long as the pick isn't lottery protected, its a perfect deal.

To obtain $8 mil in cap space and a chance to get a potential top 8 pick, as a "make up" for scewing up the #2 pick?

Sounds to me like yet another totally solid recovery from yet another really bad high draft pick for Joe D.

It ain't about how you screw up, its about how you recover. If the Pistons got $8 mil in cap space and a top 8 pick in 2006 for the #2 pick in the 2003 draft, I'd say its a pretty nice recovery.

there was no mention of Jameer Nelson this morning, btw.

if joe can get cato, jameer, and an unprotected 1st rounder for darko/arroyo, i say pull the trigger.

No shit. thats an easy no brainer. Both those guys> Darko and Arroyo.

there was no mention of Jameer Nelson this morning, btw.

if joe can get cato, jameer, and an unprotected 1st rounder for darko/arroyo, i say pull the trigger.

I honestly don't think they're doing Jameer for Darko straight up. This is a wtfdetroit fantasy of ours.

Should I start getting exctied or will this deal fall off the table. I just don't see Orlando giving up both an unprotected lottery pick and Jameer Nelson + Cato.

Seems like Orlando would be giving up too much doesn't it? I am trying to play GM of the Magic here. The Magic are really trading the #8 for Darko which I can see as a win/win. Jameer for Arroyo is a lose/Win for the Magic.

Maybe they think Arroyo is a better fit for them?
Anyways, who cares about Orlando here, I dont understand why Joe d. wouldnt take this deal if thats what they're offering.

Maybe they think Arroyo is a better fit for them?
Anyways, who cares about Orlando here, I dont understand why Joe d. wouldnt take this deal if thats what they're offering.

No one would think Arroyo would be a better fit for them over Jameer.

Maybe they think Arroyo is a better fit for them?
Anyways, who cares about Orlando here, I dont understand why Joe d. wouldnt take this deal if thats what they're offering.

my guess would be that joeD might be trying to pry away Jameer, saying that we need a backup PG. maybe the magic would do it if pick is protected? just my guess, of course.

As much as Arroyo doesn't fit in Detroit - heis not a bad player. He isn't a fit in Detroit because he isn't a scoring pointguard like Saunders likes and because Ben Wallace is an offensive non-entity under Saunders offense and he cannot be on the floor at the same time as Big Ben as a result.

The only way I would even consider this deal without Jameer Nelson is if we can find a "right fit" point guard that could be acquired for Kelvin Cato's expiring deal.

And even then I think we're being ripped off because I think Milicic's attitude will be much, much better in Orlando, where he can see 20 yr old Dwight Howard busting his ass and dominating and might try to do the same. Milicic has all the talent in the world and I think you dangle the carrot of playing time in front of his face and he'll break out in a big way.

I don't think there is a player available at the 8th pick that will have near the potential of Milicic. If we won the lottery, maybe. But I think this is a four deep draft and then a big drop-off(then again the 2003 draft was the big three then a dropoff.

Here's what I'd do. We know Milicic wants to be traded right. Why not invite Orlando scouts and GM to the Palace and hold an open practice where Milicic would no doubt bust his balls to try and earn his way out of Detroit. I think if Orlando saw Milicic going full bore with all his bag of tricks, they'd make the Nelson, unprotected 2006 first rounder and Cato for Milicic and Arroyo before they left the practice facility.

I wouldn't do the Cato and a first for Arroyo and Darko. And I wouldn't accept a protected pick if they added Nelson. I would include a sweetner of sorts though, either the Minnesota 2nd rounder or a future Detroit first sorta deal.

Ladies and gentlemen:

This is a Trade Rumor Central - Darko Edition thread. It is not a trade proposal thread.

It is only WTFers discussing Jameer Nelson. There has never been any actual trade rumor involving Orlando included Jameer Nelson in any packages.

The first proposal was Cato for Darko and Arroyo - straight up salary swap. Cato = $8 mil and Darko and Arroyo combined = $8 mil.

Detroit rejected, and now Orlando has sweetened the deal to Cato and a 1st round pick for Darko and Arroyo.

That is the rumor.

If you're discussing Jameer Nelson, perhaps it should be in a different thread, like a trade idea thread or something. People are starting to get confused as to what's actually on the table.

Anyway, back to actual Darko Trade Rumor Central...

I'd trade Darko and Arroyo for Cato and a 1st round pick, no question, as long as the pick isn't lottery protected.

DO IT NOW, JOE!!!!

I don't trade Darko and Arroyo for Cato and a 1st round pick...we need a backup PG...

I don't trade Darko and Arroyo for Cato and a 1st round pick...we need a backup PG...

Not with Joe's draft history, for sure.

I want at least one solid contributor now for this season.

Now if we still had Chucky in play...

Actually JS mentioned Nelson in his insider rumors - so there. We're legit. [smilie=bootyshake.:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/5328270


Item: The Pistons became only the second team in history to have four players voted to the All-Star team by the coaches — Chauncey Billups, Richard Hamilton, Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace — none of whom were elected by the fans to start in the game. Tayshaun Prince was the lone Pistons starter left off the unit.

What this really means: The 1967-68 San Francisco Warriors were the other team to accomplish that feat, but finished only 43-39. The Pistons have already won 41 of the first 50 games. They obviously have a special starting lineup that the coaches duly recognized, but that's not the question. The question is their depth and ultimately their ability to deal with the Heat in the conference finals. Their teamwork at both ends of the floor is unparalleled, with coach Flip Saunders replacing Larry Brown seamlessly as they vie for their third consecutive Eastern Conference title.

But what we don't know is if they can hold off a Heat team, now coached by Pat Riley. The time has apparently come for president Joe Dumars to get past holding on to the No. 2 pick of the 2003 draft — Darko Milicic. The reasons why Milicic doesn't contribute a lick in his third year are now irrelevant. The window to win is still now. It's time to move on presuming he has decent trade value. Get a veteran power player to help deal with Shaquille O'Neal and some scoring off the bench. Everybody wanted to believe Darko would develop, and we're cool with the perspective that Prince was a good fit — despite the availability of Carmelo Anthony. But just imagine if that pick had been Dwyane Wade ... think he would fit into those 144 minutes divided between the two guard spots and small forward? Just consider that would be 36 minutes apiece for Billups, Hamilton, Prince and Wade!

if we're giving up Arroyo and not getting Jameer back (as it seems, since Jameer was mere speculation on our part), i'm against the trade.

that'd leave us with Hunter as backup PG. with his age and him coming off a half-season long injury, i'd much rather have Arroyo off our bench.

ASB:



The problem with this deal as it stands is it only really provides Detroit with some salary cap relief soon (Cato comes off the books after this season) and a first round pick in this upcoming draft, that from what i've been hearing from scouts, is pretty weak beyond the top 5 or so players. They're not crazy about the idea of moving Carlos Arroyo who, if you really think about it, is about as good a backup point guard as you'll find in the NBA. The only way I see this deal happening as it stands now is if Darko or Carlos demands a trade. If that happens, then Joe D. and company might feel the best thing for team harmony's sake is to move them. Otherwise, I think they'll stand pat until this summer or early next fall to decide what to do with one or both of them.

I think Orlando is bring ridiculous even making these offers. Arroyo can start in this league if he is playing with four scorers on the floor.

I'd be willing to take a unprotected 2007 pick in stead of a pick from this years draft. That way if Orlando got lucky they could have Arroyo at the point with Howard, Milicic, Morrison/Gay and trade Francis for a upper echelon SG and they'd be a play-off contender. And the trade would work out to be Milicic and Arroyo for Jameer Nelson and a 14th-17th pick.

Is Arroyo and Milicic worth JJ Redick? And the fact you obviously weaken the team for this season...

This will only work if Delfino all of a sudden becomes like Marco Jaric and plays the PG.


say no to lindsey..NOOO

Here's some garbage that I found on a Magic board...definite "grain of salt" material here, guys.


Well I was going to address with with Dave as an I told you so, but I will rather wait for everything to get out....But if you prefer to know how things have led up to this point I can explain that easily.

Detroit approached the Magic about Cato back in November. The deal was primarily to get Arroyo off the books and the Magic wanted Darko. However, Cato was hurt and it was early in the season so neither team really had an idea of what they had as a team.

The deal was only in a "discussion" at that point and nothing real hot about it.

In Late December Dumars approached the Magic again about Cato's health and it was thought at that point that Cato would be back soon. Had he returned and played well, the deal was to go through for Darko/Carlos for Cato with the Magic and Detroit swapping this year pick with each other.

Since then the Magic found out he had a Broken Foot and would not return until AFTER the all star break. Dumars then approached Smith and the discussion was about Battie. Last I heard the idea was thrown out there by Dumars trying to trade for a package which included Battie and Hedo, but his main focus was on a front court player. Alot of ideas were thrown around to see what would stick. BUT whatever might stick Dumars wanted this years pick from the Magic with any Battie trade.

Now the way I understand it is that Dumars and Smith heated up talks again about Cato but instead of swapping this years picks, Smith offered this years pick UNCONDITIONALLY to Dumars. It is my understanding that the main reasons DUMARS is thinking about it is Cato return after the all-star break and his insistence on having DeShawn Stevenson included in the deal if Cato is not able to make a full recovery.

I am hearing that if this deal goes through, the Magic are going to DUMP Steve Francis contract to NY for Penny. This is the main reason the Denver deal did not go through, because the Magic put a stop to the Denver deal. The Magic want to develop around Dwight and Jameer and not bring in players that will not compliment that. Basically long term looking toward a free agent class where they can decided what players best fit around Dwight and Jameer. From what I hear, Crawford was not looked at as a good long term solution as a SG, nor did they want to deal with the possiblity of the injured Nene, as well as the contracts that went along with the deal.

In the end we could have ended up trading Penny in 1999 for Garrity, CapSpace(McGrady/Hill), Darko, Arroyo & 2005-2006 Cap Sapce.

Or you can just say we traded Penny 1999 for Tmac 2004 for Darko/Penny 2005

Now les see how things play out until Feb 23.

GD, this written by the Orl beat writer or someone with inside info? It's well written and pretty authoritive, though it still might be bunk. It sounds to me to have some validity.

Joe must have something up his sleeve for a backup PG.

That is a work of fiction. We were looking to trade Arroyo to give us a seventh bigman and make 60th overall pick Alex Acker our back-up pointguard for atleast three months??

We were going to flip-flop a pick we don't even have??

Me thinks the kid wants to sound like has some sort of insider knowledge...

GD, this written by the Orl beat writer or someone with inside info? It's well written and pretty authoritive, though it still might be bunk. It sounds to me to have some validity.

Joe must have something up his sleeve for a backup PG.

someone with inside info who's dad and bro work for the magic
[smilie=bullshit.gi:

There is no way Joe is after Cato this badly. DD is better than him. IMO, Joe really wants something besides Cato (pick?, Nelson?, both?) and when asked about he he just says they are in talks for Cato. Joe is not dumb enough to persue Cato like that. Even Toronto and NY wouldn't persue Cato like that.

I'll never forget that dunk that Cato had at the Palace in the NCAA tournament (the only time I've ever seen the tourney live).

But he's a pretty useless player nowadays. He's nothing but an expiring contract. Any thoughts that Joe D actually wants him as a rotation player are way off base, IMO.

anyone else get the feeling orlando is a smoke screen?

I don't know about a smokescreen, but I think it isn't nearly as serious as some of us fanboys are taking it to be. Orlando leaked the news and since Dumars runs a tight ship and we don't hear rumors all that much we jumped all over it a fatkid on cake.

I agree with Kilo, I doubt any of this is a smokescreen, if another deal happens it is because ORL dropped the ball.

To address the Nelson issue, as much as many of you think it is a pipedream or a wtf thing, it isn't. Joe has insisted that MR. D will pay what it takes to keep the team together. Plus Joe has not wavered on Darko publicly. So I cannot see 8 million in cap space, and a new crapshoot pick to be enough for two guys who can be rotation players, one who will thrive on bad team, and the other who will increase his value being a starting PG. I think any deal is going to need to include Nelson or Fasquez. The only way I see a deal for just Cato and a pick happening is if like was stated before CAto is being sent to a third team.

the reason i smell smokescreen is because mlive is reporting the news of the trade via the pistons.

http://www.mlive.com/weblogs/beyondthearc/index.ssf?/mtlogs/mlive_beyondthearc/archives/2006_02.html#112362

why would joe confirm another team's trade offer? my guess is that he wants to move darko, but not for the deal offered.

the reason i smell smokescreen is because mlive is reporting the news of the trade via the pistons.

http://www.mlive.com/weblogs/beyondthearc/index.ssf?/mtlogs/mlive_beyondthearc/archives/2006_02.html#112362

why would joe confirm another team's trade offer? my guess is that he wants to move darko, but not for the deal offered.

I agree with your premise but I think there is legit talks with Orlando. Hollinger, Ford, Bucher and a few others have said recently Joe has had several offers for Darko. I don't think Joe is using ORL, if a deal happens with another team, I just think it was better offer or Orlando wouldn't meet Joe' demands, not that Joe played anyone.

Orlando could be hesitant to include Jameer Nelson and Detroit is trying to play the media to force their hand a little bit to up their offer or miss out. Dumars usually plays his cards very close to his vest, and this is the second time Milicic has been "put on the block" bu the media. AS Blakley comes out today saying that Dumars won't make the deal and that he doesn't need to make the deal - basically probably re-affirming what Dumars has told the Orlando general managers when he made his counter offer and Orlando balked.

I for one have no interest in Vasquez. I really want Jameer Nelson in order to part with Milicic. Of course I'm from the camp that believes Milicic is going to explode once he starts getting playing time and that Dwight Howard would be a very good onfluence on Milicic as Dwight is Darko's age and busts his ass in a quest for greatness.

Both teams are playing hardball. But when it comes down to the bare bones of it all, Joe Dumars doesn't need to make the trade. Orlando wants Milicic, it's up to them to make it worth it for Detroit.

Orlando could be hesitant to include Jameer Nelson and Detroit is trying to play the media to force their hand a little bit to up their offer or miss out. Dumars usually plays his cards very close to his vest, and this is the second time Milicic has been "put on the block" bu the media. AS Blakley comes out today saying that Dumars won't make the deal and that he doesn't need to make the deal - basically probably re-affirming what Dumars has told the Orlando general managers when he made his counter offer and Orlando balked.

I for one have no interest in Vasquez. I really want Jameer Nelson in order to part with Milicic. Of course I'm from the camp that believes Milicic is going to explode once he starts getting playing time and that Dwight Howard would be a very good onfluence on Milicic as Dwight is Darko's age and busts his ass in a quest for greatness.

Both teams are playing hardball. But when it comes down to the bare bones of it all, Joe Dumars doesn't need to make the trade. Orlando wants Milicic, it's up to them to make it worth it for Detroit.

Absolutely. I gave up on Darko a really long time ago but the fact is, he is young and on a bad team, he could get a good amount of playing time and maybe, just maybe, that could be the motivation he needs to live up to his "potential". If he did that, and was paired with Dwight Howard, that would be a very scary team for a very long time. If Orlando truly likes Darko as a player, they give up Jameer Nelson just for that possibility. If they don't but figure "What the hell, lets take a chance on the kid?" than they keep Jameer Nelson.

If Dumars gets Jameer Nelson and than ships off Cato's expiring deal for a solid bench player than you can sign, seal, and deliver another championship to Detroit and there's not a damn thing anyone else can do about it

My guess here is that Dumars will pursue Dooling, since Nelson will likely be unavailable. The deal being offered is probably something along the lines of their #1, Keyon Dooling, and Cato. If it was Nelson, I don't think Dumars would even think a second, and the deal would have been accepted already.

Don't forget that Joe D has had a hard on for Dooling for awhile now, and wanted to draft him as well.

i like dooling...but he seems like a bitch...hed start something over nothing

I think Orlando is bring ridiculous even making these offers. Arroyo can start in this league if he is playing with four scorers on the floor.

I'd be willing to take a unprotected 2007 pick in stead of a pick from this years draft. That way if Orlando got lucky they could have Arroyo at the point with Howard, Milicic, Morrison/Gay and trade Francis for a upper echelon SG and they'd be a play-off contender. And the trade would work out to be Milicic and Arroyo for Jameer Nelson and a 14th-17th pick.

Is Arroyo and Milicic worth JJ Redick? And the fact you obviously weaken the team for this season...

Who said we were going to take Redick? I would love Gibson out of Texas. Redick's a great shooter but he is a SG I beleive. With Arroyo out, we should take a PG whether it's Rondo out of Kentucky or Gibson.

Our team is getting weaker by giving up Arroyo. We get an expiring contract. This would help sign Ben.

IMO, Joe's not done. He COULD make another trade, not sure for who though... Orlando doesn't give up Nelson though. With Francis in a few trade rumors, I think Brian Hill is up to something. Nelson would start and if the trade were to go down, Arroyo would back him up.

More "McCosky Magic"

http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060214/SPORTS0102/602140396/1127


Risk taker

As a player and in front office, Dumars never has feared failure

Chris McCosky / The Detroit News

AUBURN HILLS -- Just because his team has the best record in basketball and is cruising toward a third straight appearance in the NBA Finals, don't think for a minute Joe Dumars has stopped looking for ways to improve.

If Dumars has proved anything since he has taken control of basketball operations in the summer of 2000, it's he's not afraid to take risks.

"You know what, I have never been afraid to take chances, because I know I will live with the failure," Dumars said.

The rigors of his 14-year playing career instilled that quality in him.

"Being in all those big games and having to take big shots and having to walk out there and try to guard Michael Jordan or Reggie Miller -- putting yourself on the line knowing it was success or failure right in front of millions of people, right then and there -- that prepares you to take chances," he said. "I am not afraid to take chances because I am not afraid to fail."

That is why he continues to pick up the phone and listen to offers from other teams as the Feb. 23 trade deadline looms. That is why last Friday in Orlando, he sat down with Magic assistant general manager Dave Twardzik to revisit a potential trade he had already turned down a month ago.

The Magic have been interested in acquiring point guard Carlos Arroyo and forward Darko Milicic. They are offering the Pistons a partially protected first-round pick and center Kelvin Cato, whose $8.5 million contract expires after this season. This trade, which is still being discussed, would have virtually no impact on the Pistons this season. Arroyo has been averaging less than 10 minutes for the past month or more, and that time might be cut further once Lindsey Hunter returns to game shape. Milicic is out of the rotation.

The Pistons likely would waive Cato, who has been hurt all year.

But, with the pick (which would be protected for the first five or seven picks) and the $8.5 million of salary cap relief, the Pistons would be addressing some long-term needs.

They don't have a first-round pick in this year's draft, and the cap relief would come in when they have to re-sign Ben Wallace.

Dumars is aware if he made the trade, he would be admitting drafting Milicic second overall was a mistake.

"If something doesn't work out, you have to move forward," he said, speaking in generalities. "You are going to make mistakes in this business. The key is to keep moving forward and correct the mistakes as quickly as you can."

You are also going to hit the occasional home run. Like he did in February 2004, when he pulled off the Rasheed Wallace deal.

"My wife (Debbie) says she wishes people knew how I almost drove myself crazy over that deal," Dumars said, laughing.

It took more than a month to construct the deal because Wallace's salary was more than $15 million. So, Dumars had to involve two other teams (Boston and Atlanta) in order to clear the necessary cap space.

He convinced Atlanta to unload Wallace, even though New Jersey and other teams were begging Hawks general manager Billy Knight not to do it. In return, the Hawks got the expiring contracts of Bobby Sura, Zeljko Rebraca and Boston's Chris Mills.

Boston agreed to send Mike James to the Pistons for Chucky Atkins, Lindsey Hunter and $3 million. Boston also agreed it would waive Hunter, so the Pistons could re-sign him.

"That was the hardest, most stressful situation I ever went through with a trade," Dumars said. "Teams kept backing out."

At several points, and as late as 35 minutes before the trade deadline would pass, the deal was killed. Atlanta didn't agree until 9 a.m. Feb. 19. The trade deadline was 3 p.m. that day.

Boston's Danny Ainge was in a car, driving from San Diego to Oakland. Twice that day, while talking on the cell phone, Ainge declined the deal. Twice, the last at about 2:15, Dumars had to tweak the deal (add cash) to bring Boston back in.

"You know what, we made it all back ten-fold," he said.

The Pistons have posted a 103-30 record since Wallace joined the team, and a 31-17 postseason mark that includes a championship and a heartbreaking loss in Game 7.

Ten days until the deadline.

Don't sleep on Dumars.

McCosky makes his annual. I know I just totally dismissed a possible deal so now I'll write an article that doesn't contradict my statement and still allows me to say "see I was on to it too".

Danny Ainge made that deal in his car? LOL @ the championship being decided from a cell phone on the I-5.

The text in red is what I found most interesting about this McCosky masterpeice.

Is this the first hint of an admission by Joe that Darko was a mistake?

Also, I really can't see Joe making this deal and then cutting Cato outright. The ONLY way that makes sense is if he's got somebody else ready to sign (Elden?) and/or another deal for a PG in the works. Otherwise, this deal makes us weaker THIS YEAR, something that Joe is not really in support of, I would think.

But do we really need Elden. All we need to do is get DD ready and either a pick or possibly Dooling.

Cross, no we don't "need" Elden, but if we have the roster slot, we could certainly do a lot worse. Even if Elden's presence is just a psychological edge against Miami.

Elden could be kept inactive for a while and the kids (Acker/Amir) could dress once in a while and if we get a blowout they could get some run.

Orlando, like the Knicks, is desperately trying to revamp its team. The Magic have another deal in place with the Pistons that includes Darko Milicic and Carlos Arroyo coming to Orlando in return for Kelvin Cato and a first-round pick. That deal is contingent on Orlando's three-team trade with the Knicks and Denver being completed.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/391251p-331880c.html

Thanks for that bit Glenn.

Doesnt that 3 team trade involve Francis going to the Nuggets? That proves Nelson will go no where and Arroyo would back up Nelson for a flashy point guard duo. I think the deal could still happen without the 3 team trade going down.

Shit, if these articles are to be believed, Dumars and Co. must believe that not only is Milicic a lost cause here, he'll be a lost cause elsewhere. That's depressing as hell. I still can't see us shipping out Arroyo and then cutting Cato outright.

Orlando trades a disgruntled Francis, expiring and injured Cato and an unprotected first rounder in a weak draft and gets Nene Hilario, Jamal Crawford, Trevor Ariza, Carlos Arroyo and Darko Milicic??

Denver gives up Nene, Earl Watson, Kenyon Martin and Vashon Lenard and gets Francis, David Lee and Penny Hardaway. Denver is not going to have any interior presence - doesn't make any sense.

New York gives up Penny Hardaway, Jamal Crawford, David Lee and Trevor Ariza and gets Kenyon Martin, Earl Watson, Voshon Lenard.

Didn't Denver back out on taking Francis due to the money involved?

Sure they get a little cap relief but essentially they're just switching the $$$ from the frontcourt into the backcourt.

Miller Camby, and Carmela all will have huge salaries.

If you've got to choose between Martin or Francis don't you choose the big man (unless his injury is worse than first thought)?

I think the Orlando/Detroit deal should go through regardless of this 3-team idea though.

Send us Dooling, Cato and protect the pick (Top 5) and call it even.

Dooling, Cato and a PROTECTED pick and I think I'll throw up. Most of you don't know this but I gave up my left nut in order to "win the lottery" back on that fateful day. Orlando wins the lottery and we have Keyon Dooling and a non-lottery pick to show for this deal in a year??

Just keep Arroyo and Milicic for crying out loud. Milicic's value can't be any lower than it is now. Maybe a summer playing for his national team will raise his stock.

I agree with Kilo, I doubt any of this is a smokescreen, if another deal happens it is because ORL dropped the ball.

To address the Nelson issue, as much as many of you think it is a pipedream or a wtf thing, it isn't. Joe has insisted that MR. D will pay what it takes to keep the team together. Plus Joe has not wavered on Darko publicly. So I cannot see 8 million in cap space, and a new crapshoot pick to be enough for two guys who can be rotation players, one who will thrive on bad team, and the other who will increase his value being a starting PG. I think any deal is going to need to include Nelson or Fasquez. The only way I see a deal for just Cato and a pick happening is if like was stated before CAto is being sent to a third team.

If we get Nelson, we'll be the team giving up a pick or something of value, at this point a lot of Darko's value has been lost and not because people don't think he has talent, but the fact that the world has seen his awful work ethic. As for "wavering", come on JS, no smart GM EVER wavers on their own player(you think he's going to ruin the value of a tradeable guy? Are you serious?)...Joe had nothing but positive things to say about Rodney White even after he was gone. Also, I'd rather have the cap relief of Cato to the rights to Fran Vasquez anyway, the guy has like a 3 yr deal to play in Europe and he makes more there, the NBA may not see him anytime soon.

Um, TOP 5 protected pick =

Our pick around #8 in 2006.

WTF - you guys think Orlando are gonna win the Lotto?

That franchise is cursed

Eighth pick in this years draft is like 15th-20th pick in most years though. This is a weak college class before you took out the high schoolers afterall.

How is this deal going to save us money - we'll have to pay a draft pick first round slot money, and we'll probably have to use the MLE on a back-up pointguard in the off-season. Sure we could draft a PG and seemingly kill two birds with one stone, however we'll need another bigman - and they never come cheap.

Um, TOP 5 protected pick =

Our pick around #8 in 2006.

WTF - you guys think Orlando are gonna win the Lotto?

That franchise is cursed

They may be cursed, but they've gotten the 1st overall pick 3 times in the last like 13 years. They've selected the correct player each time too, that player just leaves or gets injured...poor Dwight Howard, he looked so promising. :)

Eighth pick in this years draft is like 15th-20th pick in most years though. This is a weak college class before you took out the high schoolers afterall.

Bullshit - it's even after the top 5 picks and just because there are no High Schoolers in the Draft doesn't mean shit.

Which HS player drafted in 2005 is playing well?

People say every year the Draft is weak and it always turns out to be bullshit. There are a decent amount of bigs and wings in this Draft and some PG's could shine in the tourney and in workouts.

So it's not weak - just more even than usual.



How is this deal going to save us money - we'll have to pay a draft pick first round slot money, and we'll probably have to use the MLE on a back-up pointguard in the off-season. Sure we could draft a PG and seemingly kill two birds with one stone, however we'll need another bigman - and they never come cheap.

Why would we use the MLE on a PG if we got Dooling? I said send us Dooling, Cato and a Top 5 protected pick and I'll call it even. He'd be the back-up PG.

As for needing another big man - why?

Won't Jason Maxiell deserve minutes next season? Or wouldn't our draft pick get to play the Darko role?

Having a Top 10 pick in any Draft opens up all kinds of options and personally I'm tired of Darko and Arroyo.

$8,000,000 (or $16 mil if we include luxury tax) and for what?

Fuck that.

NOTE: I don't even know if it works with Dooling in the deal.

I'm iffy on the deal with Dooling, but definately on board for Nelson.

Does this pretty much put to rest that Darko sucks and has no chance in the NBA? Dumars may not be good at drafting players but he's a genius when it comes to current talent and he's seen enough of this pile of crap to realize that he won't cut it.

Careful Cliffy.

Some still believe Darko has "franchise C potential" and if we trade him we'll get robbed in the deal.

Personally I believe that if he had that potential Joe wouldnt fucking trade him. He'd be stupid to trade him after all this time if he still thought Darko could develop into a stud.

High schoolers might not be doing anything this year - but we wouldn't draft one anyways. Other teams would and they would push back the college and international players deeper into the draft. 2005 seems to have been a bad year for high scoolers to make instant impacts - but that doesn't mean they'll all be busts. This desire for instant gratification is what is forcing us to trade Milicic.

You can call bullshit all you like. I don't watch NCAA's all that much, I can just go by what the "experts" are saying.

I'll be terribly disappointed in an Orlando trade as it is being reported. Then again, I thought we'd rue the day we dealt Roddy White for picks and stiffs.

This desire for instant gratification is what is forcing us to trade Milicic.


We'll have to agree to disagree on the Draft since this ain't the thread for that.

Back on topic:

Instant Gratification?

It's 2006 - Darko was drafted in 2003.

If that's instant thank the Lord I don't drink coffee at your house.

Fact is we've trained and developed and carried Darko for 2 and a half seasons, spending more than $12,000,000 on the fucking exercise and the net result is....

NOTHING!

It's the biggest waste of money since my woman bought a treadmill.

Send him packing while we can and get something for his pathetic ass.

Instant gratification on Milicic's end. We wouldn't trade him if he was giving 100% effort and understood his role was as the future of this team. Instead he is sulking like a 4 yr old because he isn't playing now like Lebron and Howard. He's a 20 yr old kid who wants it all now and think he is owed as much since he was drafted 2nd overall. He was drafted on future potential not because anybody thought he could step in and play.

This desire for instant gratification is what is forcing us to trade Milicic.


We'll have to agree to disagree on the Draft since this ain't the thread for that.

Back on topic:

Instant Gratification?

It's 2006 - Darko was drafted in 2003.

If that's instant thank the Lord I don't drink coffee at your house.

Fact is we've trained and developed and carried Darko for 2 and a half seasons, spending more than $12,000,000 on the fucking exercise and the net result is....

NOTHING!

It's the biggest waste of money since my woman bought a treadmill.

Send him packing while we can and get something for his pathetic ass.

^classic stuff, this is great reading.

LOL@GD

Question: How concerned is Davidson in going over the luxury cap to sign players? Doesn't a move like this tell you that he is opposed to going over?

Pharaoh?

(Edited so Pharaoh doesn't kill you) - Mo

Careful Cliffy.

Some still believe Darko has "franchise C potential" and if we trade him we'll get robbed in the deal.

Personally I believe that if he had that potential Joe wouldnt fucking trade him. He'd be stupid to trade him after all this time if he still thought Darko could develop into a stud.

I agree with the bolded part. If Joe thought he'd be a star still we'd try and extend him cheap, or match a FA offer. Worst case he'd force Darko to take the qualifying offer. But he wouldn't trade him if he thought Darko was that good.

I think he's a solid 16 and 9 player some day. He could be like Memo is for the Jazz. Problem is that he doesn't show the desire to be more than that. He also isn't ready to be a 16 and 9 player now, and he won't be by the time his contract is up either. part of me wishes we had something come up where Ben/Sheed/Dyess had to miss a month but wasn't something lingering at the beginning of the season so we could get a good sample of his potential. As it stands, we'll never know how good he is here. I'm almost hoping Sheed gets suspended a few times for technicals so that Darko can play some good minutes. I just want to know whether we should be deciding between Dyess and Darko in a couple years, or whether he still won't be good enough then.

We need a PG if we trade Arroyo...Lindsey Hunter is NOT a PG, he can't shot, he can't pass, he cant do anything beside playing awesome D...it was a pain in the ass watching Lindsey as the only sub for CB and RIP in the finals, worst FG% in the playoffs ever i think...now our human victory cigar for a top 10 pick is fine, but Arroyo for nothing is not an option...

having such a good team (us) getting a pick that high really frakked things up. Not being able to offer the kind of minutes he needs.
I'm actually more than a bit worried that none of our "future" players will end up staying here. I could see in 2 or 3 years Maxiell bolting when his contract is up because he got no playing time either. players just wanna play first and foremost even if its not major minutes, just feel like they contribute. mike james and memo are two guys who already left cause they couldnt get good playing time and it wont stop with our starting 5 this good AND our coaches' unwillingness to give minutes. Players dont develop on the bench, something's gotta give.

Oh, one other thing, I'm not convinced this draft is going to be as bad as everyone says it is. Whenever EVERYBODY is repeating the same thing about something that's not happened yet, I alwasy get wary, it feels like one of those things a few sports news guys said and everybody repeats it ad nauseum (you know, kinda like how the Pistons were not giong to be as good without Larry Brown, its amazing how it was basically accepted fact until we started tearing it up at the beginning of the year). Virtually every draft has produced some great players and I think this one will too.. It wont be the lebron draft or the 2007 draft but theres things to be had.

No need to say frakked here. Just go ahead and say fucked. You'll feel much better in the morning.

I'm actually more than a bit worried that none of our "future" players will end up staying here. I could see in 2 or 3 years Maxiell bolting when his contract is up because he got no playing time either. players just wanna play first and foremost even if its not major minutes, just feel like they contribute. mike james and memo are two guys who already left cause they couldnt get good playing time and it wont stop with our starting 5 this good AND our coaches' unwillingness to give minutes. Players dont develop on the bench, something's gotta give.


I'm not worried about Max. His idol is Ben, and I think he'll eventually take over his role in a few years. I think Max might stay just to learn under Ben and replace him.

I do understand what you are saying though. And it could happen with Delfino. If Flip continues to play Delfino and Evans sparingly like he is, Delfino could walk after his contract is up. He's too talented to not be a 6th/7th man eventually (or start on a bad team). As much as I like Evans, I'd like to see Delfino get more run than he is.

Not to mention that Max might actually start getting some PT once Darko's fragile ego is out of the picture.

We can have Delfino locked up until 08/09 at a very low salary if we want to. No worries.

2005/6: $969K
2006/7: $1.04M
2007/8: $1.9M (team option)
2008/9: $2.7M (qualifying offer)

Sorta off topic, but do we know for a fact we get this years Minnesota second rounder?? If I remember the trade announcement, it was for a future second rounder...

If Dumars is starting to admit his mistake, all bets are off IMO, we would be lucky to get the number 8 pick.

I am going to be honest here Joe is a moron if he has sat by passing over better offers for Darko, now all of a sudden he is saying my bad cap space and a pick are good enough.

I would rather have a Desmond Mason and the 21st pick.

Bring back the Al Harrington deal!

People were bitching that all we were going to get was Harrington who was going to walk, but even if he walks it's better than getting Cato just to waive him.

But then we wouldn't have the sweet assed first rounder...

Just think what this has come to. We could have traded Milicic last year and be going for a friggin three-peat.

Bring back the Al Harrington deal!

People were bitching that all we were going to get was Harrington who was going to walk, but even if he walks it's better than getting Cato just to waive him.

No, we would have a first rounder.

The problem with the Al deal is that he wouldn't play much with Dyess here. If Dyess were not here, the deal makes sense. But if Dyess were not here, Darko would be playing and we wouldn't have this discussion. He'd either be playing well, or playing too bad to draw Al in a trade in the first place.

But then we wouldn't have the sweet assed first rounder...

Just think what this has come to. We could have traded Milicic last year and be going for a friggin three-peat.

^ugh.

A draft pick doesn't help us this year.

At this point all I care about is getting a solid contributor that helps us win it all this year (preferably somebody that can score in the post). I don't care if the guy walks after the year, I don't care if it's a bad contract (unless it causes us to lose a key player in the future), I don't care if Uncle Bill has to pay luxury tax dollars.

You don't bring a team to this point during your career very often. One solid addition could very likely put us over the top again.

Can Joe make the right move? Did he learn from last year?

First rounder? hmm....In that case I rather Dumars of not extended Sucko and shipped him off last year for last years draft. Someone like Granger would of been awesome to backup Tay.

Bring back the Al Harrington deal!

People were bitching that all we were going to get was Harrington who was going to walk, but even if he walks it's better than getting Cato just to waive him.

No, we would have a first rounder.

The problem with the Al deal is that he wouldn't play much with Dyess here. If Dyess were not here, the deal makes sense. But if Dyess were not here, Darko would be playing and we wouldn't have this discussion. He'd either be playing well, or playing too bad to draw Al in a trade in the first place.

Don't you think that if we had Harrington we could trade either him or Dice for more than what we are getting for Darko at the deadline?

I have to agree with Kilo, the thought of this deal pisses me off because if Joe trades Darko one year ago, we could be looking at a 3rd championship.

A draft pick doesn't help us this year.

At this point all I care about is getting a solid contributor that helps us win it all this year(preferably somebody that can score in the post). I don't care if the guy walks after the year, I don't care if it's a bad contract (unless it causes us to lose a key player in the future), I don't care if Uncle Bill has to pay luxury tax dollars.

You don't bring a team to this point during your career very often. One solid addition could very likely put us over the top again.

Can Joe make the right move? Did he learn from last year?

I do care. I don't want a one year player. Not for Darko. Not for a former #2 pick. If you want to rent a player for one year, that is fine. But you can do that with junk picks and/or expiring deals. Not with something of value (he has value to some teams). I'm all for bringing in a piece to help this year (a defensive swingman or PG to replace Arroyo). But why sell Darko for that purpose when you can sell less?

I'm in favor of the Nelson/cato/pick deal, not just Cato and a pick.

Anyone remember how well Darko played in the pre-season (well, at times)? *sigh* Even if he is good enough (which I somewhat doubt), perhaps Joe realizes how much Darko dislikes being here and that, in all likelihood, Darko would bolt after his contract is up. Therefore, maybe Dumars feels the need to trade now while the kid is still mysterious to most.

PS I'd love Arroyo/Darko/2nd/Future first for Nelson/Cato/Top 3 protected.

>>Then trade Cato to team looking for capspace or cut him outright.

I'm in favor of the Nelson/cato/pick deal, not just Cato and a pick.

So you agree that if it's Cato and a pick that ends up getting done that it is a bad move?

I'm in favor of the Nelson/cato/pick deal, not just Cato and a pick.

So you agree that if it's Cato and a pick that ends up getting done that it is a bad move?

If the deal is Darko and Arroyo for Cato and a protected pick, yes it's a bad move.

As much as I dislike Arroyo, we need him or a better option. I won't risk a Billups injury giving us Hunter and Acker running the team. Hunter is a good energy guy, but not for more than 15 minutes a night.

If the deal is Darko, Arroyo, our first for Cato, Nelson, protected first...do the deal. I'd throw in Evans if they want him too.

I know it isn't possible, but would you deal Milicic for a guarenteed championship this year? I would. I've given up hope of a long run at the top. We have to maximize wins with this current team - future be damned. I'd rather win now and have to completely rebuild that shortchange this team in hopes that we can still be competitive when Ben, Rasheed, Chauncey are gone.

I don't believe you can truely contend now while building for the future at the same time. I mean we're going to have keep having late round draft picks that will not develop because they need PT - not exactly the guys that will make up the next championship core.

Ben, Rasheed and Chauncey retire, you deal Prince and Hamilton for picks and start rebuilding again. We have a championship calibre group of guys together now - lets maximize their chances.

I'm in favor of the Nelson/cato/pick deal, not just Cato and a pick.

So you agree that if it's Cato and a pick that ends up getting done that it is a bad move?

It's only a bad move cause it will be one of the few times that Dumars has held onto his hand too long. Is it me or does it appear that Darko's trade value is dropping?

I'm with you Kilo.

We are at a place in time that you hope to reach when you start building a team. Go for the kill while you can.

Why rebuild just to hope to get to this point again?

If we were the Sonics, for argument sake, sitting here in our current position, and we had a chance to deal a player that is stuck behind a logjam of quality players for a player that fills a need and improves your championship chances, you do it.

If I were to make a poker analogy, I would say that it is time to go "all in".

The problem is that you're going all in when large bet is enough to win the pot. You don't need to go all in to intimidate someone out of a pot. You can bet enough to make someone pot committed with most of their chips, and they are forced to fold or go all in themselves. Why pay 50 grand for a ford tauras when you can buy one for 20 grand?

My point isn't that we couldn't get something to help now. It's that we can get something and spend less.

I guess it would help if you had actual senarios. What actual players can be had that would almost assure us of a championship? For arguments sake, lets assume a solid backup SF OR PG will put us over the top. What player(s) fits that and can be had?

Then I could tell you whether I would risk Darko on that deal, or I would pass unless we could send less (ie Dale Davis and a pick).

Brevin Knight, Jumaine Jones, Melvin Ely from Charlotte for Milicic and Arroyo.

Morris Peterson and Mike James from Toronto for Milicic and Arroyo.


Why does the draft pick have to be from this year?? Orlando could draft a new Jameer in this years draft if they kept this years pick. Darius Washinton, Rondo, Gibson and Co. could all be had, pick ot the litter, when Orlando would pick if they keep this years pick.

They only get a big man if they win the lottery(Aldridge, Bargnini), they could "win the lottery now" and draft a replacement PG.

We could get a 2007 or 2008 pick and it wouldn't really matter to us. It could actually be better as we might have more playing time for them then, also we wouldn't have to pay for them now, where first round slotted money could help push us into the luxury tax threshold. From our current roster I believe only Hunter is likely to leave. It's not like we are going to have room or playing time for them right now.

Why in the world would Charlotte or Toronto pull the trigger on those deals?

Because they think much higher of Milicic than you do. It seems like I could substitute in the word "Dog Shit" for "Darko", "Milicic" or "Darko Milicic" and you wouldn't notice any difference and it wouldn't change the discussion one bit.

I think Milicic has value, and I think Arroyo has value to other teams that run the right fit offense for him.

The way I peg things is that if Milicic was to miraculously be added back in this years draft AT WORST he'd go fifth behind Aldridge, Bargnini, Morrison and Gay.

Earlier in the game tonight they showed Dumars sitting in his box and low and behold Wobb Parker and Dumars were having a discussion. I wonder what Wobb will have to say about the Milicic situation tomorrow.

Some guys on the Mlive forum are saying that they heard someone on ESPN say that the deal is done and should be completed within the next 48 hours. They are just deciding the protection of the 1st round pick.

Orlando board ballboy is saying that ESPN's Ric Bucher is saying the deal is done and it should be announced tomorrow. It is said the only hold up is the level of protection. I really hope there is none - otherwise we could end up with a 2007 pick in the mid-teens.

I wonder if Hunters nine minutes vs Arroyo's five and Darko's ugly half assed three pointer "sealed the deal".

I'm coming around on the deal. Get me a top six pick and I'm okay with it at this point. Jameer wouldn't get the PT here anyways. We'll probably draft a Washinton or Rondo if we end up with a 8-13 pick.

Let's hope it is unprotected and the Magic dump Franchise for Penny and a couple NY kids(Ariza and Lee).

ESPN is reporting it as a DONE DEAL!!! Many others are confirming the ESPN account. Last piece to work out is the level of protection!!

Well, the protection part should be a huge deal of the trade. I can see that they might want top 3 protection or something like that. But we don't know how close they really are.

if its really a done deal, this is fucking lame, Arroyo is more worth than capspace, so we get a lottery pick? great, Joe D will waste it anyway...Darko, White...awesome [smilie=angryfire.g:


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2331049




Pistons reportedly close to trading Milicic to MagicBy Marc Stein
ESPN.com


Two things it now appears that these Detroit Pistons won't do: Win 70 games or continue the Darko Milicic experiment.

Darko Milicic
Forward-Center
Detroit Pistons

Profile
2006 SEASON STATISTICS
GM PPG RPG APG FG% FT%
24 1.5 1.2 0.4 53.125 37.500


NBA front-office sources told ESPN.com on Tuesday night that the Pistons and Orlando Magic were close to completing a long-discussed trade that would relocate Milicic, 2003's No. 2 overall pick, to central Florida. The trade could be completed as early as Wednesday, sources said, with only one potential snag.

The sides, according to sources, are bartering over the extent of lottery protection Orlando would have on the first-round pick it has agreed to send Detroit along with center Kelvin Cato for Milicic and guard Carlos Arroyo.

It's thought Orlando is seeking to retain this year's first-round pick -- and convey its 2007 first-rounder to Detroit instead -- if the Magic's pick winds up in the top seven of the June draft. The deal would collapse if the sides can't come to a resolution -- with Detroit looking to reduce Orlando's level of protection by a few spots -- but it's clear the Pistons have made the decision to move Milicic before the Feb. 23 trading deadline after giving him a chance to earn a rotation spot under new coach Flip Saunders.

Milicic hasn't played much more for Saunders than he did for Larry Brown, unleashing a new wave of second-guesses on Detroit's decision to draft the Serbian 7-footer over Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade ... even though the Pistons won the championship in Darko's rookie season and came within one game of a repeat title last season.

Yet, even if Milicic had established himself as a rotation regular under Saunders, it's doubtful the Pistons could have afforded to retain him beyond this summer. With Ben Wallace bound for free agency in July and Chauncey Billups expected to seek a lucrative contract extension before becoming a free agent in the summer of 2007, Detroit needs Cato's expiring contract ($8.6 million this season) to create the salary-cap space to re-sign both comfortably and keep together its vaunted starting lineup.

After Wallace and Billups re-sign, all five Pistons starters will possess contracts averaging at least $10 million per season -- an NBA rarity but a necessity for Pistons president Joe Dumars given the success and relative youth (Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace are both 31) of the group.

While Orlando continues to explore its Steve Francis trade options, this move would give the Magic two highly touted but unproven European big men to surround franchise forward Dwight Howard: Milicic and 2005 first-round pick Fran Vazquez, who elected to play in Spain this season instead of joining the Magic.

Marc Stein is the senior NBA writer for ESPN.com. To e-mail him, click here.

so this means hunter is the new official backup, i wonder if something else is going to happen?

if this has too high of protection I dont like the deal

this will be a double slap in the face if darko turns out

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2331049


The deal would collapse if the sides can't come to a resolution -- with Detroit looking to reduce Orlando's level of protection by a few spots -- but it's clear the Pistons have made the decision to move Milicic before the Feb. 23 trading deadline after giving him a chance to earn a rotation spot under new coach Flip Saunders.

if we're not getting a backup PG, we're pinning out hopes on Lindsey Hunter this season??

Yeah this is retarded if they trade away arroyo too without a backup pg.

LAME. I'm virtually certain we could have gotten more for Darko/Arroyo than that. ugh.
Clearly they want Darko. Joe D should DEMAND no protection.

I know. What kind of bullshit trade is this? They may as well just waive Darko and keep arroyo. I bet Toronto would have done Darko for Mike James straight up.

LAME. I'm virtually certain we could have gotten more for Darko/Arroyo than that. ugh.
Clearly they want Darko. Joe D should DEMAND no protection.

maybe Joe D will insist on a level of protection that he knows the Magic won't agree to....this publicity could spur counter offers from other ball clubs. i'm talking out of my ass, of course. :)

Joe said he is going to try to pick up a backup point guard after this deal. What do we have to offer up though? Amir Johnson? What free agents are out there? Howard Eisley?

Top seven protection?? That's ridiculous, especially considering it looks like the Magic are going to tank the rest of the season. Next years pick better be completely unprotected - top pick and all. And then we have to hope that Howard goes down with an injury of some sort or Milicic remains shit, because you get add a Rudy Gay to Jameer Nelson and Dwight Howard, and Milicic starts showing his potential and we're looking at a 14-18 pick next year.

I also hope that if we don't move Cato for a PG, that we don't just cut him. I mean might as well keep another big body around.

I like the 2007 draft better than this one, so protect this year all you want.

DUDE.

I want Jameer Nelson. Fuck this trade.

not liking the deal, top 3 protected yes, top 7 ehhhhhhhh

give me darko for mike james

Joe D suckz with lottery picks, always picking guys with potential...i want a proven player who makes us better now ffs... [smilie=bullshit.gi:

Didn't McLeod or Kelser say during the game that Joe D had told them TODAY that if they ended up trading Arroyo, they would be getting another PG back in return?

Joe said he is going to try to pick up a backup point guard after this deal. What do we have to offer up though? Amir Johnson? What free agents are out there? Howard Eisley?

Minnesota 2nd rounder and Mo Evans?? I really doubt there will be any match outthere for Cato's monster contract.

Didn't McLeod or Kelser say during the game that Joe D had told them TODAY that if they ended up trading Arroyo, they would be getting another PG back in return?

interesting....i didn't watch the game on TV. did anyone else here this?

DUDE.

I want Jameer Nelson. Fuck this trade.

I'm hoping that Fran Vasquez is an alias of Jameer Nelson, or that Joe D. has something kickass coming.

Big enough money for Cato is tough though.

A. Miller, Watson and Leonard, who is looking to get under the cap/more.

Duhon?

Hey we always said that we would trade Darko away for a bag of balls and Best buy gift card, well...

I've got to throw it out there:

Detroit trades:
Kelvin Cato
draft pick (not the Orlando one)

Denver trades:
Earl Watson
Voshon Lenard

Maybe Denver wants cap relief? Watson does have a huge deal for a 3rd string point guard.

Leonard + Watson for Kato

Sign Elden for the stretch run.

Don't quote me or hold me to this, but apparently there may already be a secondary deal in place for Cato.

Bring back SOUP

If Denver is really looking to cut costs for Carmello's eventual resigning, what about moving Cato and Evans to Denver for Najara and Watson??

Of course the trade would have to be made a three way. And the saving cap room aspect would have to be thrown out the window...

glad there is some excitement around here.

LOL - we all look to Denver at the same time. I like Najera because he's give us the bigger more physical SF to back-up Tayshaun.

Watson would be the ideal backup PG, his contract doesnt look that good but Darko,Arroyo for a lottery pick and Watson would be a Joe D type of deal...

Orlando trying to get a top 7 protection just makes me want to go smack every player on the Magic five times. they're already getting two players from us that they will be using.

I'm guessing the size of Darko's own qualifying offer and that caphit thing hindered many possible deals. 13 mil? I still dont understand how that works, but the general idea is that it could burden down other teams wanting to be under the cap in 2007.

i do hope we get something back that we can be comfortable with. i'd hate for Darko to blow up in the future and for us to look back and say, "that's all they got for Darko?" a high lotto pick would be a great way to ensure we get some potential talent back. i really hope the deal isn't just Cato + a pick. i just feels like we could have gotten more for him...

first time i've been pissed at joe.

this is some bullshit.

top 7 protected?!?!?!

thats all he's worth?!?! you've got to be fucking kidding me.

another deal better be brewing.

fuck a salary dump in the middle of a championship season.

i'll say it right now, detroit is going to look very bad for this trade for a very long time. bold prediction, but im calling it. even if we move cato for najera and watson (dont see how thats possible without using that pick we just got) does that really make us any better? marginally, maybe.

first time i've been pissed at joe.

this is some bullshit.

top 7 protected?!?!?!

thats all he's worth?!?! you've got to be fucking kidding me.

another deal better be brewing.

fuck a salary dump in the middle of a championship season.

i'll say it right now, detroit is going to look very bad for this trade for a very long time. bold prediction, but im calling it. even if we move cato for najera and watson (dont see how thats possible without using that pick we just got) does that really make us any better? marginally, maybe.

that's all contingent on how Darko pans out in Orlando. if Darko turns out to be a bust in Orlando with all the potential playing time he's expected to get, we might come away better off with a draft pick and the ability to resign Ben.

if we don't trade Darko, JoeD would have had to make the decision to resign him to big bucks without an ounce of proving himself.....or we let him walk away with our hands empty. right?

but for the record, i'm hoping JoeD gets "more" in the deal.

damn. I'm still pissed about it.

I fully expect Milicic to blow up in Orlando. His bitchmade attitude stemmed from lack of playing time. Give him all the PT he wants and he'll be a starter in this league for the next decade.

He's out to prove everybody wrong now - that's a powerful incentive. I believe we play Orlando one more time this year as well, I hope it is in Detroit...

if it makes you feel anybetter. right now nbadraft has orlando's pick taking jj redick.

in the 2 minutes a game he would get for us, im sure he would make a jumper with perfect form.

of course, right now orlando is #6, so we wouldnt even get jj.

maybe we'll find a player with as much potential as rodney white.

I fully expect Milicic to blow up in Orlando. His bitchmade attitude stemmed from lack of playing time. Give him all the PT he wants and he'll be a starter in this league for the next decade.

He's out to prove everybody wrong now - that's a powerful incentive. I believe we play Orlando one more time this year as well, I hope it is in Detroit...

eh, wasn't that his incentive this season?

Maybe you Darko nutriders are finally realizing that he's worth shit because he is shit. LOL@Kilo for standing by his man.

[smilie=angry.gif] [smilie=angryfire.g:

Why Joe? Why?

If there isn't a 2nd deal already lined up that gives us a backup PG I am going to stop watching the Pistons.....

OK, I won't, but I'll be pissed. [smilie=angry.gif]


[smilie=404.gif] [smilie=behead.gif] [smilie=death.gif] [smilie=faeuste_bal: [smilie=fatality.gi: [smilie=firing.gif] [smilie=firedevil.g: [smilie=hammertime.:

Damnit all!

if there's one thing that will help Darko, it's that Dwight Howard is such a beast on the boards, no one will notice that Darko can't seem to grab rebounds.

Yeah and he started off with a him against the world attitude. However he quickly realized that the PT again wasn't going to be there. Flip likes to ride his starters, and McDyess would pick any remaining minutes.

It has ALWAYS been about PT for Milicic. I guess it's put up or shut up time for him now.

I hope Joe Dumars is playing hardball with the protection. Orlando fans are creaming themselves over this deal and Detroit fans are all WTF? over it.

Maybe you Darko nutriders are finally realizing that he's worth shit because he is shit. LOL@Kilo for standing by his man.

You should see my recent addition in our fantasy league...

Oh yes I did.

right now, this isnt a basketball trade, its a salary dump. if another move isnt made, do we think this is joe's trade, or bill davidson's?

joe should have pulled a rob babcock and fallen on his sword rather than doing this trade.

we re certainly trading Darko for shit, we gave up a first for Arroyo too...the Wiz got Butler and Chucky for fucking Kwame Brown...i dont believe this until its actually done.....bah, time to visit a Knicks board

if there's one thing that will help Darko, it's that Dwight Howard is such a beast on the boards, no one will notice that Darko can't seem to grab rebounds.

Also like Milicic, Howard is 20 yrs old and I think Milicic will relate much, much better to him and his incredible work ethic will rub off on him. Milicic was treated more like a little brother/mascot than a teammate here and I think he resented it.

I am sorry but I hate the deal Joe fucked up the 9th pick, 14th pick and 2nd pick, why should we believe a top 5 pick or top 10 pick matters longterm?

i think i said on pg 7 he'd be a good fantasy pick up. he's getting teens and 6 rebounds in orlando. wouldnt be a bad bigman on the bench...

What do you guys think of Rajon Rondo?

I'm guessing he sucks because I haven't heard of him.

I am sorry but I hate the deal Joe fucked up the 9th pick, 14th pick and 2nd pick, why should we believe a top 5 pick or top 10 pick matters longterm?

Because this draft is absolute garbage. A number 10 pick in this draft is like a pick in the mid-20s in a normal draft.

and to those who think another deal is in place, i read somewhere (think espn insider) that joe was expected to waive cato if the trade was made.

we'll see.

So this trade cost us the 30th pick, Arroyo, Darko and a championhip to get maybe the 7th pick.

and to those who think another deal is in place, i read somewhere (think espn insider) that joe was expected to waive cato if the trade was made.

we'll see.

If we're waiving Cato, it means we want the roster spot. Maybe Zeke is coing out of retirement to try and repair his sullied image.

Seriously though what recently retired PG's would fit here?? What is Mailman Jenkins up to these days?? Jay Williams??

This is Corliss Williamson for DC Part 2

So this trade cost us the 30th pick, Arroyo, Darko and a championhip to get maybe the 7th pick.

Who's the 30th pick?? If that is Arroyo/Utah trade, we can't trade "him" twice.

We made this move last year to get Harrington and we're the odds on favorites for a friggin threepeat. I think I'm gunna throw-up.

i just can't believe that Joe Dumars, would risk our championship hopes by trading away our backup PG and getting nothing in return......expecting a 30+ year old PG who missed more half the season to injury to just come in and play substantial minutes.

why take that huge risk right now?

Bill Davidson rewards the consecutive sell-out streak and the best fans in the world with a money move - tight-assed dumbo-eared geezer.

So this trade cost us the 30th pick, Arroyo, Darko and a championhip to get maybe the 7th pick.

can we at least sign Isiah as the draft guy for this pick as soon as he's got fired as Knicks GM ? [smilie=2thumbsup.g:

Carlos Arroyo does not hold the cards to us winning a Championship.

What do you guys think of Rajon Rondo?

Yes I love ranch dressing but only if it's the buttermilk stuff.

What do you guys think of Rajon Rondo?

I think Stern won't let us bring him in this year. [smilie=angryfire.g: [smilie=404.gif]

Bye bye backup PG. Bye Bye Championship. Once we realize that Lindsey can't run the offense for shit (He'll make Arroyo look like Nash) it will only be a matter of time before Chauncey is putting in 48 minute games regularly.

How about Darius Washington?




Guys, this is NOT a Championship breaking trade. Joe said he'll bring somebody in, we'llbe fine.

Carlos Arroyo does not hold the cards to us winning a Championship.

as much as everyone thinks he's struggled this season, he's our primary backup PG. i think we can all agree that Lindsey, while great on D, isn't nearly the playmaker that Arroyo is.

bottomline is that we're screwing with our chemistry right now....that's dangerous. Lindsey's durability and his capabilities in Flip's system are questionable. no one know if he'll succeed or even struggle more than Arroyo did. so, i disagree. while Arroyo doesn't necessarily "hold the cards" to us winning a title....we are taking an unnecessary risk by getting rid of Arroyo and getting nothing in return.

And the last shot of Darko Milicic's Pistons Career: A 21 foot shot that went 14 feet. Darko, it was a pleasure.

Bill Davidson rewards the consecutive sell-out streak and the best fans in the world with a money move - tight-assed dumbo-eared geezer.

Is anyone surprised? He's cheap as hell. Mike Illitch had a $75 mil payroll with a freaking hockey team and half the revenue.

If we just waive Cato doesn't this show that Mr. D is an overrated owner who is a cheap ass? I mean how can you say that money doesn't matter then make 2 trades in championship seasons that are cash moves.

i feel queasy at the thought of Darko going on a tear in Orlando........maybe this is how Orlando fans feel when they see Ben Wallace winning DPOY's and a title....

i feel queasy at the thought of Darko going on a tear in Orlando........maybe this is how Orlando fans feel when they see Ben Wallace winning DPOY's and a title....

It is similar but much worse considering Darko was picked ahead of Superstars and all we will have is the 7th pick to show for it, on top of that for him to do well only compounds how stupid the double D are.

We better get a backup PG in return or I am going to be real pissed.
[smilie=angryfire.g: [smilie=404.gif]



PS 600th post.

At least we can refer to Delfino as "Carlos" now.

and to those who think another deal is in place, i read somewhere (think espn insider) that joe was expected to waive cato if the trade was made.

we'll see.

So what is the fucking point of doing the trade if he is just going to waive him?

At least we can refer to Delfino as "Carlos" now.

RIP, LosDos

the most underrated nickname in Detroit.

Cato was included because he's an expiring contract and the salaries are a match. He's oft-injured and would be our 6th bigman off the bench. He isn't that bad when healthy though, and somebdoy thought enough of him to play him almost $9M/season at one point in his career.

and to those who think another deal is in place, i read somewhere (think espn insider) that joe was expected to waive cato if the trade was made.

we'll see.

So what is the fucking point of doing the trade if he is just going to waive him?

That was courtesy of McDouchebag the man who said no way Joe trades Darko, not to mention his other countless fuck ups.

Waiving Cato may happen but until I hear it from a reliable writer, all bets are off.

What are the rules regarding trading a player we just acquired? Do we have to wait 30 days or something like that?

What are the rules regarding trading a player we just acquired? Do we have to wait 30 days or something like that?


You can flip them if you want until the TD. Remember everyone said Sheed couldn't be traded here after 48 hours past when he was traded to ATL but we got him anyway.

from Orlando's point of view, this is a fanastic deal. i can see why they're excited. they get Darko, who gives them HUGE upside compared to anything Cato could offer. they also get a PG that looks to become their starter after they deal away Franchise. they basically give up a lottery pick in a draft regarded as many as a weak one and a guy who doesn't even play, for two starters.

i'm going to sleep now.....here's to hoping JoeD can work some magic and we get more in this deal.

also, i hate to go the route of sour grapes, but i hope Darko doesn't play anything close to being worthy of a #2 pick in orlando.

i mean, it'd bad enough to watch Melo, Wade, and Bosh becoming stars in the NBA. i don't think i can stomach watching Darko suddenly become a star on another team. [smilie=sad2.gif]

What are the rules regarding trading a player we just acquired? Do we have to wait 30 days or something like that?


You can flip them if you want until the TD. Remember everyone said Sheed couldn't be traded here after 48 hours past when he was traded to ATL but we got him anyway.

I remember something about not being able to trade guys after you sign them for 30 days, so that's why I thought it might apply to guys who are traded too.

But it's good that we still have the option of trading Cato for some immediate help.


also, i hate to go the route of sour grapes, but i hope Darko doesn't play anything close to being worthy of a #2 pick in orlando.

i mean, it'd bad enough to watch Melo, Wade, and Bosh becoming stars in the NBA. i don't think i can stomach watching Darko suddenly become a star on another team. [smilie=sad2.gif]

I don't know if Darko will ever live up to #2 status but I am pretty sure he will have a breakout year in Orlando.

also, i hate to go the route of sour grapes, but i hope Darko doesn't play anything close to being worthy of a #2 pick in orlando.

i mean, it'd bad enough to watch Melo, Wade, and Bosh becoming stars in the NBA. i don't think i can stomach watching Darko suddenly become a star on another team. [smilie=sad2.gif]

I don't know if Darko will ever live up to #2 status but I am pretty sure he will have a breakout year in Orlando.

yeah, while Darko was here, i've always wanted him to play well. i've defended him many times, saying that he's got the talent to play well. if i had to wager, i'd think Darko will play well on a bad team with lots of PT. it's just going to suck watching it from a distance.

here's to hoping we win a title to ease that pain....

[smilie=drunk22.gif]

[smilie=cheers.gif] [smilie=beer.gif]

Cheers to that thought and good night.

Maybe this is Dumar's way of getting his soul back that he gave up in the Ben Wallace trade?

Seriously, this trade would be fine with no protection on the pick but with top 7 protection, the Pistons probably end up getting a 13-15 pick next year.

Unless there is another trade involving Cato already on the table, this is a dumbass trade and I dislike Arroyo and Darko as players.

Maybe this is Dumar's way of getting his soul back that he gave up in the Ben Wallace trade?

Seriously, this trade would be fine with no protection on the pick but with top 7 protection, the Pistons probably end up getting a 13-15 pick next year.

Unless there is another trade involving Cato already on the table, this is a dumbass trade and I dislike Arroyo and Darko as players.

I agree 1000%

If Darko isn't in Detroit there is no question in my mind thatI hope he turns into a horrible bust. Having him turn out decent to good would be yet another slap in the face in this Darko drama.

At least get us the rights to Fran Vasquez in the deal. Let us have some shred of dignity after throwing away the "Wade/Melo/Bosh Pick". Even if he doesn't ever play in the NBA, it at least looks like we have a chance at getting something out of this.

This draft is virtually useless outside of the Top 4 - 5 selections. Darko has more potential than almost all of the guys in this draft.

People, like my main man Skelly said, trading Arroyo is not going to make or break a championship season.
Hopefully, Joe can get a top 3 protected pick (or did the deal offically go down?). If he does, its good for both sides.

Dakro is garbage, and so is Arroyo.


I like Hunter, and I'm pretty sure Joe is going to pick up a PG or has another deal on the table
In Joe I trust.
He built the best team in the NBA. He's not a stupid man.

This draft is virtually useless outside of the Top 4 - 5 selections. Darko has more potential than almost all of the guys in this draft.

Here is something that was just brought up to me, there could possibly be a twist to this or at very least a new angle.

In our eyes this a salary dump, but it may a way of getting cost certainity. There is nothing to say both Cato and the pick can't be moved to upgrade the roster. An 8 million dollar expiring deal and a top 10 first could bring us a viable player that makes up 10 million per. With Arroyo an Darko a team must have needed both to make a deal.

As Far as cost certainity goes given Darko's pending FA it could got ugly paryoll wise.

Thats all fine and dandy if that trade is already on the table.

My main point is that I do not have a problem giving up Arroyo and Darko for Cato and a top 10 pick this year wherever it may fall.

My problem is that if that Pick protected, we won't recieve it until next year when Orlando will be much improve. I would give up Darko for a top 10 pick, not a 15th pick. If thats the case, wait until the summer to dump the bum.

with a little bit more luck in the draft this could not only be the best team in the NBA but a true dynasty ...

so who's are the alternatives at PG? u know Seattle has been in the market for a backup PG for a long time now, and coudnt get it done...

With a little bit of luck? We had amazing luck in the draft in 2003 and look what has happened.

Our scouts suck and our GM is terrible with high picks. A high pick is pretty much worthless to this organization. I want Sucko gone more than anyone but if we don't get a proven player that can help this team right now trading Megabust is pointless. This team still has flaws and if we give away our only non-rotation asset I'm am really going to be pissed off.

With a little bit of luck? We had amazing luck in the draft in 2003 and look what has happened.

Our scouts suck and our GM is terrible with high picks. A high pick is pretty much worthless to this organization. I want Sucko gone more than anyone but if we don't get a proven player that can help this team right now trading Megabust is pointless. This team still has flaws and if we give away our only non-rotation asset I'm am really going to be pissed off.

No doubt. Trading Darko for the right piece could virtually guarantee the 2006 championship to Detroit.

As worthless as I think he is, you're better off holding him for something better. If nothing else better ever comes, who cares? Let him walk for nothing and all your out is a worthless pick.

I will say that If Dumars makes this trade, Darko has ZERO chance of being anything in this league. There is no way he just gives a player away that he was so high on for virtually NOTHING. If this trades happens, Darko is worse than even I thought.

I will say that If Dumars makes this trade, Darko has ZERO chance of being anything in this league. There is no way he just gives a player away that he was so high on for virtually NOTHING. If this trades happens, Darko is worse than even I thought.
I wouldn't count on it.

He may never live upto his #2 pick status, but he will definitely turn into solid pro. Remember his performaces with his National Team and during the pre-season? Imagine how well he would do if he got minutes like that consistently.

Yeah Darko looked ok against the not yet ready for NBDL players he faced over the summer.

I am still waiting for Atlanta to step up and offer Tony Delk, Josh Childress and a 1st round pick for Darko and Arroyo.

Not only are they high on Darko, Orlando is a divisional rival for them. So hopefully they will consider jumping in just to keep him away from Orlando.

This deal is not about the players we get in return, it is strictly about the cap space afforded by moving Darko and Arroyo. Cato has an 8.6 million dollar expiring contract and we need that money to extend Ben and Chauncey.

This thread makes me sick. When Diddy is against Darko leaving you know the trade is terrible.

People praying that this nets Watson. Thats how terrible this trade is, its driving people to a 5 mill a year back-up PG who's only talent is the same as the only other back-up PG we have on this team.

This can't be the end of the deal. Something else has to be planned and waiting. Dumars doesn't do deals like this.

This deal is not about the players we get in return, it is strictly about the cap space afforded by moving Darko and Arroyo. Cato has an 8.6 million dollar expiring contract and we need that money to extend Ben and Chauncey.

No we don't.

This deal is not about the players we get in return, it is strictly about the cap space afforded by moving Darko and Arroyo. Cato has an 8.6 million dollar expiring contract and we need that money to extend Ben and Chauncey.

No we don't.

Even if we max out both guys the payroll would be at 61 million in 06-07, and 68 million in 07-08. Niether guy is likely going to get maxed they both may be close so IMO if money is an issue Davidson is just a cheap bastard. Even at 61-75 million this roster is a bargain. I am sorry but the old fucker and Dumars have been blessed with a low payroll, now that guys are delivering above the salary they are paid it is time to cut payroll. How deoes that makes sense?That is bullshit IMO they should be thankful for the success with the low payroll and realize that the time has come to spend what it takes to keep the team together.

I am still waiting for Atlanta to step up and offer Tony Delk, Josh Childress and a 1st round pick for Darko and Arroyo.

Not only are they high on Darko, Orlando is a divisional rival for them. So hopefully they will consider jumping in just to keep him away from Orlando.

I sure hope they offer something like that.

H1's trade with Atlanta would be absolutely awesome for us. Delfino and Childress would be great swingmen to groom. They seem a lot like Billups and Hamilton in their ability to be athletic, shoot well, handle the ball, make free throws, and defend. In that trade we are gaining 3 nice assets, a good pick from a team with no direction, a solid player in Childress, and a PG who can compete with Hunter and be cap space at the end of the season. Can't script it any better than that.

If Dumars does the Orlando trade with protection on the pick AND no other PG, I am going to be pissed. Their better be another move in his back pocket.

I agree H1's deal is better but the problem is unless they trade Al and get back a pick no way are they parting with another first. They already owe two future firsts, I doubt they would want to part with a third.

Trade May Come After Weekend
Feb 15 - The Pistons likely won't decide whether to trade Darko Milicic and Carlos Arroyo to Orlando for Kelvin Cato and a first round pick, until after this weekend's All-Star game, reports MLive.com. According to the site, one of the Pistons concerns is the idea of losing Arroyo, who has been the team's primary backup to point guard Chauncey Billups.

In some ways I believe this delay is either to find a second deal for Cato or force Orl to giving up a PG. I mean if they do trade for Crawford, Penny and Ariza for Francis, why do they need Nelson, Dooling, Arroyo, Diener and Crawford? Even leaving Diener out of the mix, 4 PG's is beyond having depth.

I like the Watson/Lenard deal. We could also trade Cato and a pick for Miller straight up, but I don't know why they'd do it unless they feel that they cannot move Watson and won't pay Miller this offseason.

Plus I don't know how we'd be able to pay Miller either (depends on what he is looking for). We'd have bird rights, but we'd have to worry about taxes eventually.

Trade May Come After Weekend
Feb 15 - The Pistons likely won't decide whether to trade Darko Milicic and Carlos Arroyo to Orlando for Kelvin Cato and a first round pick, until after this weekend's All-Star game, reports MLive.com. According to the site, one of the Pistons concerns is the idea of losing Arroyo, who has been the team's primary backup to point guard Chauncey Billups.


In some ways I believe this delay is either to find a second deal for Cato or force Orl to giving up a PG. I mean if they do trade for Crawford, Penny and Ariza for Francis, why do they need Nelson, Dooling, Arroyo, Diener and Crawford? Even leaving Diener out of the mix, 4 PG's is beyond having depth.

i really hope so.

ugh, i'm listening to Woody on wdfn and he seems to know less than everyone here. he was talking about Cato actually playing for the Pistons...and then he talked about Darko needing a new start to flourish like how, supposedly, "Arroyo got a breath of fresh air and flourished in Detroit"....lol@woody

http://www.fox2detroit.com/dynamic/images/stories/personalities/woody_woodriffe.jpg

I wonder if Dumars wants to see what Orlando gets for Francis. I mean if he agrees to top five protection and then the Magic do a salary dump with Francis and tank the season, we have little shot at the pick, and with all of the cap room, the Magic would improve quickly with the right FA signing and top five draft pick.

Can Dumars not make this trade now that Arroyo and Milicic's names have been "put out there" and confiremed for the most part?

I think an agreement has been reached in principal, however depends on Dumars' ability to find a back-up PG for the Pistons.

Maybe Dumars is still playing hardball because Orlando wants any protection on the pick, and he's hoping they get nervous waiting until early next week and give Dumars what he wants reguarding the pick to "get their man".

Its obvious that Orlando wants the protection this season so they can play Darko, and not worry about wins. In fact, they may be even banking on it. Ideally for them, they move Francis for Crawford and Penny, and then plan to lose out the rest of the season playing them together. They will have a high draft pick and keep it, and then start Howard, Darko, Nelson, Crawford, and have either Hill or their top pick at SF next season. Express rebuild.

I'm still hoping one of two things:

1. This is a ploy by Joe to get a better deal from someone else. He is being very open about all of this, which isn't his normal style. I'm hoping that they are just floating this Orlando deal out there through the local media mouthpieces to get Atlanta, Portland or somebody else to step up.

2. That the hold up is just Joe working on moving Cato's deal for a quality PG to replace Arroyo. There simply aren't any free agent PGs out there that are capable of running a chamionship calibre team.

Also, if we end up including Evans in a deal for a PG, would Joe re-consider Latrell Sprewell?

I'm still hoping one of two things:

Also, if we end up including Evans in a deal for a PG, would Joe re-consider Latrell Sprewell?

dear lord, i hope not. i wouldn't mind if Delfino gets all of Evan's minutes if we trade him for a PG. delfino's recent play earns him at least 20 minutes a game, imo.

RGM wiretap has Al Harrington having an MRI on his knee and believe it COULD be a precursor to trade discussions(i.e. making sure Al could pass a physical).

Of course we wouldn't get a draft pick of any sorts in the deal, but we could always S&T Harrington in the off-season.

As excited as all of the Magic fans are about this deal, if another team swoops in and acquires Darko I'm going to have a boner the size of Texas.

This is a ploy by Joe to get a better deal from someone else. He is being very open about all of this, which isn't his normal style. I'm hoping that they are just floating this Orlando deal out there through the local media mouthpieces to get Atlanta, Portland or somebody else to step up.You make a ton of sense. Give this man a raise!!!

Why would Joe have played Arroyo or Darko (especially him) if a deal was this close?

hmmmmm

Something is rotten in Denmark.

As excited as all of the Magic fans are about this deal, if another team swoops in and acquires Darko I'm going to have a boner the size of Texas.

No shit. They're all diddling themselves with the thoughts of this trade, yet all keep saying they want protection on the draft pick. I hope their greed causes Dumars to send Milicic elsewhere. The way I look at it is that Aldridge, Bargnini and Milicic are all basically equal players right now - even if the pick was unprotected and Detroit got top pick and selected Aldridge, we traded Milicic and Arroyo for him - that's not a rip-off by any stretch. If anything it makes it a fair deal.

They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want Milicic, a top pick and to move Franchise, and then send us a mid-teens pick in next years draft.

So they could look something like -
pg-Jameer Nelson| Carlos Arroyo
sg-Jamal Crawford|Hedo Turkoglu(sp)
sf-Rudy Gay|Grant Hill
ce-Darko Milicic|Tony Battie
pf-Dwight Howard

Greed is one of the seven deadly sins...