Apparently Joe played this one very well. A 5 year/$50 mil deal only starts at around $8 million. Assuming Charlie V signs for $6 mil or less, we'd have enough cash to go out and get a THIRD (ariza?) free agent.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/david-kaplan-chicago-sports/2009/07/gordon-to-sign-with-pistons.html


Gordon To Sign With Pistons
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David Kaplan on 07.01.09 | no comments | share
According to my guy K.C. Johnson's most recent blog post on Chicago Tribune's sports site, Ben Gordon is on his way to Detroit to sign with the Pistons. Having just worked the phones on this, a source tells me that barring a last second change of heart, Gordon will be a member of the team by the end of the day.

Johnson is reporting the deal for Gordon is "in the neighborhood of $50 million over five years". The source I talked to confirmed BG is in Detroit now and is set to meet with Pistons GM Joe Dumars.

Can't see Ariza with all the SF's we drafted (and Charlie can backup that spot too).

I think it allows him to take on salary in another deal (like a Max for Kaman type).

that's a good option too.

I think if he signs Gordon and Charlie and has 5-6 mill left over he'll expore all big men trades that he can save that team 5-6 mil. utah, clippers and suns could all shed salaries in the post.

Kwame, RIP and Max will all be the possible pieces going out.

Glan, do we have enough SGs yet?

I'm not really following what Joe's doing here. He drafted 3 SFs. He has a SG that he's excited about coming in from Europe. He's just about to sign a SG, and possibly a SF/PF later on this week. So our big men would be Kwame and Max... and Charlie V? Is there a trade that he is ready to pull the trigger on?

Okafor???

He has to by eyeing trades or this season will be a disaster up front.

Did anybody else realize Gordon and V and former college teammates?

Did anyone care?

Did anybody else realize Gordon and V and former college teammates?

I dont think they played at the same time together, just the same university.

They were drafted one year apart.

He also played with Okafor, I smell a trade coming!

I dont think they played at the same time together, just the same university.


They were both on the title team.

They were both on the title team.
Correct.

And it would be sweet to unite them with Okafor. 3/5 of the 2004 NCAA champs.

how we get Okafor?

Okfaor+Bell for RIP if we still got 3-5 mil capspace left?

Rip for Okafor or Brand (providing Kander signs off) would make me happy.

Apparently, we never even paid Turkoglu a phone call, for all the talk about us being interested in him.

Apparently, we never even paid Turkoglu a phone call, for all the talk about us being interested in him.

Smoke screen so Gordon's price was lower (thinking Joe had another route he could go)?

can't be bothered to read back through the thread to see if this was already mentioned.....but according to ESPN, the first 2 FAs we hosted were gordon and charlie V.

pretty much spells out who our 2 top targets are.

I love Gordon as a go-to guy and V as a super-sub, possibly starter along with a stud shot blocker.

"We're definitely in the mode of reshaping our roster," Joe Dumars, Detroit's president for basketball operations, said last week. "We need to add about three or four talented players by drafting them, signing them or trading for them."

Clue #586 Rip is gone.

I dont think they played at the same time together, just the same university.
That was mentioned.

and DENIED.

http://connecticut.scout.com/a.z?s=342&p=8&c=2&nid=375&yr=2003

Apparently Rudy Fernandez is furious the Blazers want Turkoglu, and wants out of Portland.

If we deal tayshaun, he might be an option via trade.

Maybe we can get Josh Boone too!

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/david-kaplan-chicago-sports/2009/07/ben-gordon-is-not-gone-just-yet.html


Ben Gordon is Not Gone Just Yet

David Kaplan on 07.01.09

Outstanding NBA sources that I just spoke to with direct knowledge of the negotiations tell me that Ben Gordon is still in Detroit as of 3:31 p.m. CST. In addition, he has told friends that he will call John Paxson and Gar Forman to offer the Bulls a chance to match Detroit's offer which I am being told will be for roughly 50 million over 5 years but could creep a little higher if that is what it takes to keep the Bulls from matching. Stay tuned....

The Pistons are also meeting with Avery Johnson today. Joe D has been busy.

Am i the only one not excited about Charlie V and Ben Gordon being our big off season acquisitions?

WHo exactly said they would be the only acquisitions? Who were you expecting them to sign?

Am i the only one not excited about Charlie V and Ben Gordon being our big off season acquisitions?
Nope.

Yahoo says it's official...5 yrs/55 mill

Ok, that's about fair market value.

WHo exactly said they would be the only acquisitions? Who were you expecting them to sign?
I was hoping to be nicely surprised by someone I didnt expect. This isnt a nice surprise...

then quite frankly, you're spoiled.

"as of 3 pm today, joe dumars is king"

to

"well, who else did you expect him to sign".

thats why i think your a clown, kstat.

getting gordon adds some international flavor to the team. sort of.

and Villanueva kinda sounds like Vanilla Wafer

getting gordon adds some international flavor to the team. sort of.

I forgot he was British.

I forgot he was British.

still is actually.

That's solid.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/This-is-Detroit-s-haul-;_ylt=AiiAQH5fOs8kRd2mieh8uX.8vLYF?urn=nba,174064


could we have done better? are you happy with CV, Gordon?=

Frankly, I'm shocked that Joe went this route with almost all of the cap space as opposed to making a trade for a stud on a cash strapped team for a 2nd round pick (ala Camby last year).

I thought he'd sign 1 big $ FA, not two.

hopefully will still have about $4mil to spend:

If the deal for Villanueva is a 5 year $35 million dollar contract, than that is a starting salary of almost $6.1 million dollars. That would be a very good deal for the Pistons. If Gordon's contract is the 5 year $55 million dollar deal that starts out at less than $9.5 million, that means that Joe Dumars will still have around $4.4 million dollars in cap space to spend on another free agent or to facilitate a salary cap trade to bring in another big man. Stay tuned...

could we still see a deal for a guy like boozer though? i think rip would work real well with a great PG like williams, and utah surely wants to dump one of their bigs now that both memo and boozer have opted to stay another season.

word is they definitely want to keep milsap, especially with those 2 guys playing on 1 year deals....for longterm security they'll want to keep millsap. but would they keep all 3 this season at that pricetag?

i think we should be giving them a call seeing if they are interested in rip.....i think given that we still should have a bit of wiggle room under the cap, a 1 for 1 deal could work- IF they were into it.

if we don't make at least 1 significant trade, i'll be VERY disappointed and view our offseason altogether differently. but it's still very early and i have to assume we'll be actively pursuing a big move or 2. something to really propel us going into next season.

if not, we're in trouble.

Boozer makes only slightly more than Rip. Memo makes less.

Maybe. We'd get a 1 year rental out of him and then we could either re-sign him, S&T him or let him walk and try to open up some cap space again.

It's seems kind of patchworky to me.

we need Okafor, or another guy who plays center and can pulls down 10 rebs a game, worst case RIP for Dalembert :/

somebody bring tree rollins out of retirement!

might leon powe be a possibility with some of that leftover money? probably not. but IMO he is the type of serviceable young guy i'd go after.

i'm sure we want to maintain our flexibility for the trade market though. and powe probably isn't interested in us and/or can get a bit more $.

Powe ripped his ACL, so he's not serviceable at the moment.

precisely. he could come on the cheap. didn't he do that early in the year? so he could be back soon.

maybe i'm wrong. but he's a guy who is worth a look. guess you'd want him healthy first but somebody may go for him before he's all the way back.

Well that was an exciting first day... or not.

I agree with Gl'enn's sig.

Yahoo is reporting Powder as 5 yrs/$35 mil.

Anyone good at math working out the starting salaries and remaining space?

If the deal for Villanueva is a 5 year $35 million dollar contract, than that is a starting salary of almost $6.1 million dollars. That would be a very good deal for the Pistons. If Gordon's contract is the 5 year $55 million dollar deal that starts out at less than $9.5 million, that means that Joe Dumars will still have around $4.4 million dollars in cap space to spend on another free agent or to facilitate a salary cap trade to bring in another big man. Stay tuned...

Damn!

Higher - it took me ages to work out the yearly salaries.

And I needed help to do it.

And you're right.

Best Case Scenario (Powder 5/35, Gordon 5/50) = we still have almost 5 mil

Worst Case Scenario (Powder 5/40, Gordon 5/55) = approx 3.5 mil

That's with us having $19 mil space to begin with

ESPN says $40m for Charlie and other sources say $35m.

I'm curious to see who is right.

Surely ESPN wouldnt be wrong

On a sidenote - let me know when I can start bragging about how I was right about everything. Thanks in advance.

What were you right about? Finally getting a second senator?

The fact that the Iverson trade was awful on all angles. The fact that even though we had a ton of cap room, we wouldnt' be able to utilize it. Our "big free agent signings" were Charlie Villinueva and Ben Gordon. The fact that every one of us were going to be disappointed by the end of the offseason.

To name a few...

we basically traded billups for gordon and charlie v

given the age difference, i'd take that in a heartbeat.

we basically traded billups for gordon and charlie v


more like billups & sheed, really...

but either way I'll take it

Yeah, given their age and what billups will be making well into his twilight, I don't even see an argument there.

V and Gordon can grow into more complete players and even all-stars, like Rip Chauncey and Ben did.

A lot of people bashed Joe for locking up guys like Wallace, Billups, Rip to long-term deals. Some people never learn.

The fact that the Iverson trade was awful on all angles. The fact that even though we had a ton of cap room, we wouldnt' be able to utilize it. Our "big free agent signings" were Charlie Villinueva and Ben Gordon. The fact that every one of us were going to be disappointed by the end of the offseason.

To name a few...

Damn dude, then I hate when you are right.

Anyone else feel like we just signed two guys that are best slated as a great 6th man?

they were the two best out there that were attainable.

And no, I think Gordon has grown into an all-star caliber starter. V has some work to do, but he's also younger.

Regardless of how you feel about these two players, this team isn't constructed well right now. Joe has to do something with Rip and/or Tay right now because this could be the most guard heavy team in the NBA right now.

That's a given. He has to trade Rip. McCosky can deny is all he wants, but Joe has to be shopping Rip around right now.

You will need a new sig.

You will need a new sig.


haven't updated the one I have in years.

they were the two best out there that were attainable.
Paul Millsap and Ron Artest think otherwise.

Paul Millsap and Ron Artest think otherwise.
A restricted free agent that Utah holds rights to and a 31-year old psychotic.

Yeah, I like the guys we got better.

Paul Millsap and Ron Artest think otherwise.

Yeah, cause Utah have no intention on matching any reasonable offer for Millsap. None at all.

And Artest? Please - he might have gone to the Lakers for the MLE but he wasn't gonna come here for that amount.

And if Joe offered him anything more than a cup of water he should be fired.

should read: cup of warm piss but I'm trying not to post swearing for a change

Key word: attainable

First off, Artest is a batshit crazy fucker. I could believe he'd sign for the MLE here because it'd further his rap career, or because he'd delight in seeing the Palace Brawl footage 24x7, or because a tattoo parlor told him so. You can't say "no way would he accept a deal".

If you gave Artest the MLE, and most of the rest to Millsap, I doubt that Utah would match and the only folks we'd be competing with are Oklahoma. Millsap probably wouldn't be worth the stupid payday he's likely to get, but then again, I doubt Gordon is either.

Well, then that's a great idea:

If we gave Artest $6 mil as a starting salary AND he agreed to it you are saying we should give Millsap "most of the rest" of our space?

How much is "most"? $10 mil?

And because it's widely believed we are overpaying Gordon and that's a bad thing why is it a good thing to instead overpay Millsap?

Is it because he's a PF?

I personally never thought Millsap was "attainable" and I certainly dont think Artest was "attainable" either.

But to each his own.

I just don't see how you can bash Joe for overpaying Gordon and then turn around and wish they overpaid for Millsap.

Overpaying is stupid - regardless of who you buy or what position they play.

Never have I agreed with Pharaoh so much over anything.

As a PF, my take is that Millsap is a better choice than Charlie V, especially for team who need some toughness and rebounding. As a wing player, my sense is that Artest is a better choice as a player than Ben Gordon, because Artest's offense > Gordon's defense. Of course, Artest is a character issue waiting to explode, but that doesn't make him less attainable -- just not desirable without an elite coach that can handle characters -- a Daly or Zen Fuck Jackson.

he wasn't attainable, which is the overall point.

Notice how NOBODY is throwing a lot of money at Millsapp? Everyone believes Utah will match if they have to and they don't want to get screwed by being frozen for a week.

exactly...

now on to brandon bass....? i could definitely be happy with using the remaining cap room on him. obviously i'd explore trades and other moves as we badly need to.

but i think bass is a tough, physical player who is very underrated on both ends of the floor. he plays much bigger than his size and i'd love to have him. the cheaper the deal, the better. but i'm guessing he'll cost a couple a year+.

just saw somewhere that sean may was not given a qualifying offer and is an URFA. while i understand he's coming off an injury- and a career of injuries so far- he's a guy i really like. not sure what his market value will be, given his health status.

but he's someone i'm very intrigued by.

So you're thinking that Cuban lets him go because he'll likely have Gortat instead?

Bass is unrestricted, but do the Mavs have his Bird rights?

just saw somewhere that sean may was not given a qualifying offer and is an URFA. while i understand he's coming off an injury- and a career of injuries so far- he's a guy i really like. not sure what his market value will be, given his health status.

but he's someone i'm very intrigued by.

Leon Powe is in a similar situation, would you rather have May or Powe?

With the limited margin of error that we have, I'd probably pass on both.

That said, I'd still deal Rip for Brand.

i'm pretty sure the mavs let him walk...at least, it seems like he's halfway out the door anyway.

i remember watching this kid and wondering where this athletic, tough, aggressive 7 footer came from. then i saw he's only 6-8. he definitely can hold his own like a 7 footer and plays and even looks much bigger than his size.

Here are some other unrestricted bigs:

Dice
Zaza Pachulia
Mikki Moore
Leon Powe
Sean May
Andy Varejao
Bass
Johan Petro
Rasho
Mihm
Magliore
Collins twins
Mel Ely
Wilcox
Rob Swift
Stro Swift
Channing Frye
LaFrentz
Diogu
Gooden
Voskuhl


As you can see, not much to get excited about there.

Dice is by far the best rebounder on that list. Probably the best player on that list period.

And no, I think Gordon has grown into an all-star caliber starter..
All star or not, he's a better 6th man than starter. Grown? His game hasn't changed much over the past few years. Wait, he finishes at the basket better than he used to. Otherwise he still chucks too much to play 35 mpg, has way too many issues defending SG's, and will probably never be an efficient player in extended minutes. Again I reiterate that though i'm alone on this, I like the prospect of him being a "super sub" VJ like guy off the bench. also like that unlike AI he embraces the idea of being such. Did we overpay for that service? Yes. But I dont care about overpaying him to take a ginobli like role.

I honestly worry more about resigning Dyess and who our HC will be.

he "chucks" from distance at a better clip than Chauncey Billups, Joe Dumars and Reggie Miller.

Among 20ppg scorers last season, only Kevin Durant shot a better 3-point%.

When you take the adjusted FG% into account, only four 20ppg scorers (out of 20) shot a better field goal percentage: Dwight Howard, LeBron James, Amare Stoudemire and Chis Paul.

he "chucks" from distance at a better clip than Chauncey Billups, Joe Dumars and Reggie Miller.
But overall is behind Miller in in overall FG % immensely. And I'mma say comparing him to an elite PG is a stretch. If that were an even comparison of positions AI trade woulda' worked. Nice skew though K. Either way I'm saying he's to much of a chucker to start on a successful contender. If you believe that out shooting our former pg proves that wrong, so be it.

Chauncey was our best 3-point shooter by a country mile. I don't care what position he played.

he "chucks" from distance at a better clip than Chauncey Billups, Joe Dumars and Reggie Miller.

Among 20ppg scorers last season, only Kevin Durant shot a better 3-point%.

When you take the adjusted FG% into account, only four 20ppg scorers (out of 20) shot a better field goal percentage: Dwight Howard, LeBron James, Amare Stoudemire and Chis Paul.
Damn you skewed edit on top of the skew. Again good luck with the funneling of info to convince yourself that he's an efficient shooter.

I don't need to convince anybody. It's called evidence. All you have are empty assumptions.

The only high-volume scorers in the NBA last year that scored more efficiently were Amare, LeBron, Howard and Paul.

He scored at a more efficient rate than Wade, Granger, Tony Parker, Brandon Roy, Kevin Durant, Paul Piece, Dirk Nowitzki, Kobe Bryant, Chris Bosh, Kevin Martin and Joe Johnson.

Chauncey was our best 3-point shooter by a country mile. I don't care what position he played.
Ooookkkkk??????WTF is your point in relevance to this meaning something about Gordon being an efficient player? Are you going somewhere worth typing over with this? Gordon is better 3 point shooter than Billups, so is Kapono. Don't get what you're fizzing out here.

I don't need to convince anybody. It's called evidence. All you have are empty assumptions.

The only high-volume scorers in the NBA last year that scored more efficiently were Amare, LeBron, Howard and Paul.
HUH? This is getting scary K? He's efficient among other high scoring chuckers? great, that proves that among his chucking peers he's top notch. But OVERALL he's not an efficient scorer. Accept that reality w/o spinning it.

I accept that as a 3 point shooter he's a beast, that doesn't equate to overall efficiency. Honestly I like the guy, just not as a starter.

except Kapono is never the focus of a defense. A #1 scorer shooting a high 3-point% is far more impressive than a spot-up shooter like Eddie House or Jason Kapono, who take mostly open shots, which is why I included other 20+ppg scorers in my survey.

HUH? This is getting scary K? He's efficient among other high scoring chuckers? great, that proves that among his chucking peers he's top notch. But OVERALL he's not an efficient scorer. Accept that reality w?o spinning it.

My point was that he's a more efficient scorer than %90 of the go-to guys in the NBA. I'm sorry if that didn't sink in.

Calling him a "chucker" implies that he's a low-percentage scorer that needs to jack up a ton of shots to score a few. That's not the case in comparison with his peers.

except Kapono is never the focus of a defense. .
So he made himself get open, or did his team find ways to get him open. 3 point shooters are the toughest thing to gameplan if you swing the ball around properly and penetrate as well as Rose does.. He didn't win ROY by accident. You're suggesting that catch and shoot Gordon is any less a beneficiary of these things than catch and shoot Kapono is a serious stretch.

Gordon gets his shots in a variety of ways....often with 2 guys trying to stop him.

The fact he faces much tougher defensive pressure game in and game out makes it more impressive.

Jason Kapono will never be a go-to guy in the NBA, so there is no comparison. He will never be asked to create his own shot with the game on the line.

comparing Kapono to a guy that is actually game-planned against every game is far, far different.

I've backed my claims up with stats. You backed yours up by comparing a guy that attempts 6 shots a game to a guy that attempts 15 shots.

My point was that he's a more efficient scorer that %90 of the go-to guys in the NBA. I;m sorry if that didn't sink in.
Don't get douchey over this. You're defining go to guys by 20 ppg and high volume shooting, also using 3 point shooting.

I'm talking about good ole fashioned fg shooting efficiency. The whole point of efficiency is to get more out of every shot, calling that skewed list"go to guys" based on your rule set is an attempt at wanting to be right against a factual easy to read stats. If you don't like it, don't know what to tell ya. Saying Rip, and other players who dont score 20ppg arent go to guys is ridiculous. eggie Miller was the ultimate go to guy, and most years he doesnt make your skewed list(6 out of 18 times did he score 20 or more).

Actually nevermind, you're in stubborn "gordon is a sall star starter no matter what stat i need to skew to make you believe" mode. You're convinced in your skews, i'm not. run with it. :)

I think it's a bit of a leap to start calling him an all star caliber player, especially when he was having a hard time even getting into the starting lineup of his own team over the past few years. (And don't give me any Ginobili bullshit, either).

Maybe he can be an All Star (if Rip gets moved), but if nothing else, he's got an All Star contract now.

Don't get douchey over this. You're defining go to guys by 20 ppg and high volume shooting, also using 3 point shooting.


No, I'm defining them by 20ppg scoring, and sorting them from there by both 3-point% and the adjusted FG% Again, follow along.



I'm talking about good ole fashioned fg shooting efficiency.

"good ole" %FG is a bit out-dated, because it doesnt take into account the extra points you get from making threes vs layups, and how well/often you shoot free throws.

It's a much, much better form of measurement than simply how your %fg looks, which is heavily weighted towards big men and penalizes guards.


The whole point of efficiency is to get more out of every shot, calling that skewed list"go to guys" based on your rule set is an attempt at wanting to be right against a factual easy to read stats

Every stat I've given is accurate, and adjusted %FG is a more accurate way of telling how many points you score per attempt.


. If you don't like it, don't know what to tell ya. Saying Rip, and other players who dont score 20ppg arent go to guys is ridiculous

oh...well, you probably won't like this, then: Ben Gordon's adjusted %FG rapes Hamilton's as well. The aren't even close.




Actually nevermind, you're in stubborn "gordon is a sall star starter no matter what stat i need to skew to make you believe" mode. You're convinced in your skews, i'm not. run with it. :)

Ah, denial....

Kstat:

Some people just wanna trash the signings, the amount of money we're gonna pay and the skills of the guys we signed regardless of reality.

No amount of discussion is gonna make these people happy.

They can't discuss why Joe signed who he signed. That might ruin the fantasy that that they had on July 1st.

Don't worry about Gutz, I think he was still insisting the Joe wasn't going to trade Darko as recently as last year.

Glen “Big Baby” Davis may not make is back to Boston. After a strong performance in the playoffs against the Bulls, he’s drawing interest from several teams, including Detroit, as a restricted free agent.

http://blogs.dailyherald.com/node/2238

This could be good, if we could get him for the remaining cap space, but it would cost us a shot at Dice.

So if we have $3-4 mil remaining in space how does Boston not match that?

If we could get him then that would be sweet. Dice can go to Cleveland or LA and try to get the ring he deserves.

I'm sure IF we did sign Davis the majority would be pissed, wondering how on Earth it came to this when Amare and Chandler were/are so obviously available.

Because if they sign sheed, they will be up against the luxury tax.

I'm not sure if they feel big Baby is worth $7-8 million a season.

Well, I can see why they'd want Sheed instead.

Seems like someone would be willing to give him the MLE. Doesn't it?

the MLE...for a guy that averaged 7 and 4 last year.....

A young, physical big that played his best ball when the games mattered the most.

He improved his jumper as the year went on and when KG went down, he took the opportunity with the increased playing time and played great in the playoffs.

You did watch the Celtics/Bulls series, didn't you?

I know you love stats, but sometimes you just have to judge based on what you see with your eyes.

Edit = red (still/ever?)

GD - I thought you meant Sheed

Well, that's up to them.

I think on the right team, with the right Coach he would be a great asset for a limited number of years.

I can think of a few teams he'd be better off signing with though.

San Antonio, Orlando, Cleveland - all at MLE money.

whoever pays the MLE for Davis will regret it dearly. He isn''t that kind of player.

As for Davis I would imagine some teams could give him a starting spot. He was outstanding in the playoffs.

But maybe no one makes the offer?

Maybe everyone assumes Boston will match?

Free agency isn't as simple as we all wish it was.

Those playoff stats aren't too shabby.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/glen_davis/index.html

His first round numbers are awesome.

I knew he was playing very well but didn't realise he put up 18 and 7 in that series. He also played 41 mins per!

Damn!

Surely some team will take the chance on him.

Give Jason Maxiell that team and those minutes and he'd be doing the same thing, probably better.

Davis is a nice bench player, but not MLE-caliber.

What do you guys think of Gortat (and my apologies if he was discussed elsewhere)? Obviously he only got limited minutes in Orlando, but I think his game is solid. His Per-36 numbers 11 pts, 13 rebs and 2.28 blocks (and 5 fouls, but the argument can be made he is able to play a bit more loose with his fouls in only getting 12 minutes a game in Orlando).

At 25, he's an athletic 6'11" defender and rebounder, and I wouldn't have a problem on throwing a 4-year MLE offer his way.

he's signing an offer sheet with dallas for the full MLE. Old news.

Why people make such a commitment to a guy based on 2-3 weeks of game film is beyond me.

Hadn't seen that. It's a risky signing, but most big men are. He's shown the ability to hold his own against the league's better big man, and he's definitely worth taking a chance on. The fact is with as few good big men there are in the league, more will have chances taken on them. Doesn't seem like as much of a mystery to me.

I could give you a list of a dozen different backup centers/PFs that played their asses off over a 2-month playoff run during a contract year and were never heard from again after getting that big payday.

Jerome James, Jim McIlvane, Ronny Turiaf, Jon Koncak, Brian Williams, Austin Croshere and Nazr Mohammed, just to name a handful.

LOL KStat, that's how our championship team was built. Ben Wallace and especially Billups, who was a classic playoff performer.

In the end, it is at least a decent gamble to have a big making the MLE even if they suck, since they at least have some value. Dallas paying the MLE for someone we know is at least a decent backup C is not a bad gamble.

Bigs just cost more. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a good big off their rookie contract who isn't paid more than the MLE, especially a C.

really? We signed Ben Wallace because of a 2-month playoff performance in a backup role?

Billups was a "classic playoff performer" before we signed him? Where do you get this shit?


In the end, it is at least a decent gamble to have a big making the MLE even if they suck, since they at least have some value. Dallas paying the MLE for someone we know is at least a decent backup C is not a bad gamble.

Yeah, because we all look back on the Nazr Mohammed signing with such fond memories....

Billups certainly did.

yeah, Dumars signed him to a long-term contract and handed him the keys to the team because of 6 career playoff games. It had nothing at all to do with the fact he started 54 games that year and had a very solid season.

Billups wasn't some backup role player that came out of nowhere.


1. I was talking about backups.
2. I was talking about bigs.

Try fitting into the parameters of the discussion, please.

Jerome James never EVER played his ass off -- his big ass is evidence of that. He got bucks because Isiah was stupid. He thought that Jerome James putting up good numbers in a playoff series against a Brad Miller who was hopping on one toenail was an MLE gamble. The only thing Jerome James is good at is winning the opening tap.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/212006-david-lee-to-portland-now-lakers-want-little-nate


Glen Davis: Big Baby would likely be gone from Boston should they sign Rasheed. The Pistons are a likely replacement.

Again, I would be happy to have him for what little cap space we have left. I just don't want to risk a lot of cash on him.

Jerome James never EVER played his ass off -- his big ass is evidence of that. He got bucks because Isiah was stupid. He thought that Jerome James putting up good numbers in a playoff series against a Brad Miller who was hopping on one toenail was an MLE gamble. The only thing Jerome James is good at is winning the opening tap.


Jerome James followed that up by lighting up tim duncan a couple times in the next round. Hard to argue that wasn't the best month of basketball in his lifetime.

i'd take big baby in a heartbeat. i think the kid has 'it' and can be a very good player. at the least, he's a very solid capable player who brings a physicality we could really use. and he's a skilled player too- not just a big brute.

we'd be very lucky to get him IMO. he's ripe for a breakout in the right situation.

Of course, signing him would mean Maxiell is probably gone. No room on the bench for both of them.

sign Davis, and trade Max/Kwame for Chandler, and I think you've got the makings of a solid frontline, maybe one more cheap big. You wouldn't even have to deal rip.

8 ppg against the Spurs, and I bet that was mostly against the defensive wunderkind known as Nazr. TD never scored under 20 points in any of those games. Yeah, it was the best bball of Jerome James' career, but you still can't claim he played his ass off. The man is the very definition of "not play his ass off", and he lucked out into his payday as much as anything.

I don't think anyone's calling Gortat the next Hakeem, but he's at least athletic and is a tough rebounder. That's more than you can say for most bigs, and he's definitely worth the gamble in my eyes to see if you can spread the same contributions over 36 minutes. I, for one, think he can and is worth rolling the dice on.

He's not worth rolling Nazr Mohammed money on. I'd love to have him, but not at that price.

The market for Gortat is the full MLE. Many, many teams apparently offered it.

I'm not saying the guy is worth that but if you wanted a shot at him then that's what you had to offer.

IF so many teams are willing to give him that deal then obviously he's "worth" it.

BUT time will tell if everyone was stupid or was smart.

well, I'm saying in the long run I don't believe he will prove worth the cost.

Cool - let's revisit this in 3 years and see what became of the Great Gortat?

My prediction? Basketball will have been renamed Gortatball by then.

Just read that Orlando and San Antonio are ready to make MLE offers to Big Baby as soon as the Celtics sign someone else.

Hopefully Joe D makes a play for baby, now.

If other teams want to overpay for him, then so be it. But he obviously has a chance for more minutes here than other teams that would have interest.

Is Big Baby's recent success the product of relaxed foul calling in the playoffs, or his reluctance to fight for rebounds?

I like Big Baby -- don't get me wrong. But I wouldn't want both him and Maxiell, or for us to spend all this money and have NO one who's an above average rebounder for their position to show for it.

Big baby??? oh fuck no!! I'm thinking he has a case of Verajo syndrome: Gets away with shit for a David Stern team, but will be exploited w/o getting those same calls on another team. Big baby also seems emotionally unstable, and i dont mean in a sheed-like way (more like tears up when kg yells at him).
All humor aside, um fuck ou Joe Dumars if you waste money on Glen Davis.

http://blog.mlive.com/fullcourtpress/2009/07/detroit_pistons_target_mcdyess.html

good stuff

-----



The cap space that the Pistons will have left after signing Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva isn't know yet, but Joe Dumars has an idea on how much he will have to offer a third free agent to go along with his two bigger acquisitions.

July 7, Detroit Free Press: Although it may take time to play itself out, the Pistons would like to bring back power forward Antonio McDyess, an unrestricted free agent.

But with likely competition coming from more title-ready teams like Cleveland and San Antonio, the Pistons are looking at other options.

And that could lead them to Mavericks power forward Brandon Bass, an unrestricted free agent. Bass' agent, Tony Dutt, said Monday the Pistons have inquired about his client, and there is mutual interest.

"We see it as a great situation that we would like to explore at some time," Dutt said. "It's an organization that has the respect of players."...

The Pistons will have $3 million to $5 million to spend on either McDyess, 34, or Bass. And despite last season's 39-43 record, the Pistons remain an attractive place for free agents. "I've known Joe for a long time, and things will be back the way they need to be sooner rather than later," Dutt said.

In free agency, the difference between a $3 million dollar starting salary and a $5 million dollar starting salary is huge. In a 5-year deal, with 8% raises, that's a difference of almost $12 million dollars.

Last season the salary cap was set at $58.68 million dollars, and many have predicted a free-fall in that number this summer. Although I've maintained if the cap does drop, it will be minimal(if at all). In fact, I expect a slight increase.

Saying that. let's use the old cap number of $58.68 million to figure out how much the Pistons will have to spend on a third free agent this summer. The signing of Ben Gordon has been reported from a 5-year $50 million dollar contract to a 5-year $55 million dollar contract, and Charlie Villanueva has been reported to have signed for the same amount of years but ranging from $35-$40 million dollars. Let's take the most reported numbers for now. That would be the $55 million for Gordon and the $35 million for Villanueva.

With those salaries, and 8% raises, that would be a starting salary of $9.48 million for Gordon and $6.1 million for Villanueva. That would put the Pistons cap number around $53.5 million.

Photobucket

Using those figures and using the current salary cap, that would give the Pistons over $5.1 million left to use on another free agent. Even if you took the high salaries that have been reported for both Gordon and Villanueva, the Pistons would still have around $4.4 million in cap space left if the Salary cap is at least as high as it was last season.

Photobucket

If Joe Dumars has $5.1 million to offer a third free agent, that could be a 5-year contract worth almost $30 million dollars. So, depending on what the salary cap is set at, Joe still has a lot to work with and could add another player to the Piston roster that could really help next season. Stay tuned...

Good info, Joe.

Does the $5.1m factor in the cap hold for Daye and the reported guaranteed deal for Deron Washington?

If we get Bass, Max has to go. I also think that if we get Bass, Rip for Boozer doens't happen. We'd have 3 PFs and no C (Boozer is a PF that can play spot minutes at C, but he's not a C). If he was more of a shot blocker, I'd actually not think it was a terrible idea. I was against Boozer the whole way, but that's when I thought we were signing him to a longterm deal. If we got him on a 1 year trial it would be a bit different, but he doesn't seem like a good fit next to CV or Bass.

All 3 of our bigs would average less than a block a game. I'd love to have CV and Boozer with a defensive C, or CV and Bass with a bigtime C coming from a Rip trade, but not CV, Boozer, Bass.

Haywood (if healthy)
Chandler (if healthy)
Camby
Kaman
Okafor

Any of them would be solid. Unfortunately, we're not likely to get Haywood because they already traded Etan Thomas. We're not likely to get Okafro, period. If we did, it would take Rip so Boozer is out. Same for Kaman, it would take Rip so Boozer is out. Camby could POSSIBLY be had for lesser pieces, but they already dumped Randolph's salary, so we're probably not getting either Camby or Kaman. Maybe Chandler.

Best case (possible) scenario in my mind is still Rip/Kwame/pick for Okafor/Bell. Then sign bass and a cheap FA C and you're set with CV/Bass at PF and Okafor/FA at C with Max traded or fighting for minutes.

Good info, Joe.

Does the $5.1m factor in the cap hold for Daye and the reported guaranteed deal for Deron Washington? YES AND NO.

If Bass comes, Max must go, yes. He would need to be moved with RIP or Kwame for a center.

bass can definitely play some C though. i love the kid and really hope we get him. and then get dice for the vet's minimum (yeah right!). and then trade prince and max for chandler and posey. then rip for boozer and then.....

lol

If Bass comes, Max must go, yes. He would need to be moved with RIP or Kwame for a center.
What about with Rip AND Kwame?

Rip/Kwame/Max for Okafor/Bell/Diop

We have Bass backing up the PF spot in place of Max, Okafor solidifying the C with Diop as his very overpaid backup. It saves the Bobcats some money over the life of the Diop/Max contracts and Bell's expiring turns into Kwame's expiring.

Rip -11.63 : Okafor -10.54
Kwame -4 : Bell - 5.25
Max -5 : Diop - 6.03

They save $1.82 million this year and Max's deal stays at 5 million each year while Diop's has the 8% raises. Max has more upside than Diop at this point, and I'd be happy keeping him if we didn't get Bass. If they wanted even more savings, we could throw in a 2nd rounder, and they throw in Ajinca's 1.3 million dollar contract

The Bobcats would position themselves to be serios players next year, as Nazr and Radman are both non-guaranteed deals next season. They would be under $37 million if they included Ajinca and don't resign Felton and hand the keys to Augustin. They likely resign Felton and have somewhere around $45 million in salary next year, meaning they could still have enough money and talent to lure a big FA. They'd be in position to go after a solid big like Amare.

Felton/Augustin
Rip
Wallace
Diaw
Amare

Or they could take advantage of a cash strapped team like we all wished we had this offseason.

I would do RIP/Max/Kwame for Okafor/Bell/Diop.

Max counts as 2.5 mil in trade value though. The deal still works though as it's about 800k within the %125 barrier.

Not sure if they'd do it.

We don't need it to be within the barrier, depending on how much we gave Bass. We're still under the cap by 4-5 million.

Maybe a syndicate should move that to the Fun With Trades I just made. I'm trying to clean up the clutter I keep starting lately.

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/07/07/salarycap.ap/index.html



NBA salary cap set for 2009-10 season

By Official Release
Posted Jul 7 2009 10:30PM
NEW YORK -- The National Basketball Association today announced that the Salary Cap for the 2009-10 season will be $57.7 million. The tax level for the 2009-10 season has been set at $69.92 million. Any team whose team salary exceeds that figure will pay a $1 tax for each $1 by which it exceeds $69.92 million.

The 2008-09 Salary Cap was $58.68 million and the tax level was $71.15 million. Although league-wide revenue increased 2.5% this past season, the decrease in the Salary Cap and tax level for the 2009-10 season is the result of the formula used to set the Cap and tax under the terms of the collective bargaining agreement.
The new Salary Cap and tax level go into effect at 12:01 a.m. ET on Wednesday, July 8, when the league's "moratorium period" ends and teams can begin signing free agents and making trades.
The mid-level exception is $5.854 million for the 2009-10 season and the minimum team salary, which is set at 75% of the Salary Cap, is $43.275 million.

that sucks. so exactly how much cap room do we have left then? 2 or 3 million...?

The cap space is a drawback, but on the flipside that puts a lot of teams over the tax level. Joe might be able to grab a big even easier now. His best bet is to use the remaining money now on a backup big since it's not a lot to use in a trade. Then move RIP for a starting center using Kwame or Max if needed.

For example, NO is 8 mil over the tax line. That means they'll lose another 8 mil not even going to paying a player.

Utah is 4 mil over without Millsap.

That doesn't affect the Rip for Boozer aspect of things. They wouldn't really be saving anything. Don't they make about the same?

NO will be pressed to move Chandler now. We can offer Kwame, who is expiring and gives them a replacement C, and Max who is still young. It will save them 3 million on the salary cap which means about 6 million from their wallet.

If we did that move for Chandler, we'd still have Rip to move for something else. I don't know what we'd move him for at that point. Boozer would make sense for a season I suppose with CV getting the backup nod, but how is that going to affect him if he gets benched right after signing a 5 year deal? Rip for another C? You have CV starting next to either Chandler or the other C, with one of the two Cs getting some PF minutes? Rip has to go somewhere.

Still liking Boozer and CJ Miles for Rip and our remaining cap room.

Also I think the cap numbers are just close enough that we might be able to do David West for Kwame and Sharpe and our remaining cap room. Still doesn't give us a C, but gives us a posting PF with a great contract. I see no reason to let them off the hook with an injured Chandler unless we get something out of it like J.Wright or a pick.

according to Dave Dial we have 4.2 mil cap space left, i think he used 35 mil for CV and 55 for Gordon here...
http://blog.mlive.com/fullcourtpress/2009/07/nba_salary_cap_set_at_577_mill.html

The NBA has set the salary cap for the 2009-2010 season at $57.7 million, a decrease of a little less than $1 million dollars.

July 7, Yahoo Sports: The NBA salary cap for the 2009-'10 season dropped to $57.7 million, and the luxury tax threshold to $69.2 million, the league told its teams Tuesday night. The mid-level exception is set at $5.854 million.

This will effect how much the Detroit Pistons will have left after they sign Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva Wednesday, but it won't effect either player's contracts. The Pistons team salary will look similar to this graphic, at around $53.5 million dollars:

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r118/DD2K/PistonsSalary-BG55-CV35sm.jpg

That would give Joe Dumars around $4.2 million dollars left over to use on a third free agent or to use in a trade taking back more in salary than sending out. With the luxury tax threshold dropping to $69.2 million, there will be teams looking to shed salaries in order to get below that number. This is something that Joe Dumars has stated he would like to take advantage of. Stay tuned...
----


he's wrong about Maxiell salary, its 5 mil flat, so we could be closer to 3 mil capspace left...lame


---
edit: McCosky says we have about 2 mil left, lol no one has a clue

http://apps.detnews.com/apps/blogs/pistonsblog/index.php

So, what does this mean for the Pistons? My original math was bad, as usual. I had them having between $4 million and $5 million left to spend on Antonio McDyess. Upon further review, not so much. They might have, maybe $2 million left. And that won't get it done.

Dial is still not counting Deron Washington.

^^I was going to say this as well, I read that we signed him to a guaranteed deal.

If Deron hasn't signed the deal he doesn't count against the cap.

There is no cap hold for him as we have the minimum number of players on the books (12).

Remember: "You can go over the cap to sign your draft picks"?

It essentially means that your first rounder has his cap hold counting against the cap. You spend all your space. Then you go over the cap to give your first rounder the raise of whatever % it is when he signs his deal...

And then you sign your second round picks to the minimum. You can be $50 mil over the cap and still sign dudes to the minimum.

That doesn't affect the Rip for Boozer aspect of things. They wouldn't really be saving anything. Don't they make about the same?

NO will be pressed to move Chandler now. We can offer Kwame, who is expiring and gives them a replacement C, and Max who is still young. It will save them 3 million on the salary cap which means about 6 million from their wallet.

If we did that move for Chandler, we'd still have Rip to move for something else. I don't know what we'd move him for at that point. Boozer would make sense for a season I suppose with CV getting the backup nod, but how is that going to affect him if he gets benched right after signing a 5 year deal? Rip for another C? You have CV starting next to either Chandler or the other C, with one of the two Cs getting some PF minutes? Rip has to go somewhere.

You are correct. The cap number means nothing in trades that match salaries. It simply reduces the amount of salary we can take on in an unbalanced deal. Kwame (4.1) for Chandler (11.8) won't work. We'd have to include Max, which they wouldn't want to do (he'd count 5 mil against their cap).

Kwame/AA for West might work (the numbers would be close). Not sure how desperate they are to shed salary.

Glen Davis free agency update (http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/extras/celtics_blog/2009/07/glen_davis_free.html)

Posted by Marc J. Spears, Globe Staff July 8, 2009 10:35 AM
Celtics restricted free agent forward Glen Davis will likely have to continue to be patient before he learns where he will be playing next season. According to an NBA source this morning, Davis is receiving interest from Boston, San Antonio, Detroit and New Orleans. San Antonio and Detroit are pursuing Detroit free agent forward Antonio McDyess and the team left without McDyess could immediately turn its attention to Davis. While the Hornets are very interested, financial concerns limit them to only a possible sign and trade deal for Davis. With Davis' restricted free agent status in mind, the Celtics are just patiently watching the situation knowing they can match any offer sheet.

In related news, Spears is leaving the Boston Globe for Yahoo!

He's a great NBA reporter, IMO.

Big Baby would be a better signing for us, Dice a better signing for the Spurs.

He undercut Max's deal, but he overshot on Kwame's didn't he? I thought Kwame was 4 flat. If he missed on 2 of the more important salaries (since they're the ones that are likely floating in trades), I don't trust any of his numbers.

Big Baby would be a better signing for us, Dice a better signing for the Spurs.
We need someone who can rebound.
Dice rebounds.
Big Baby does not.

I wouldn't mind getting both, if we could move Maxiell somehow.

he rebounds better than he gets credit for. A lot of it had to do with limited minutes.

No, hes not as good as Dice, but he's not a liability like Maxiell, either.

Check out Big Baby's rebound rates -- very comparable to Maxiell's.

He's a crap rebounder, in the Eddy Curry mold.

it seems odd that no press conference has been announced yet for today.

Hope they're not Hedoing.

Shaq & LeBron called Ariza and tried to get him to reneg on the Rockets and sign with the Cavs instead.

more like Duamrs is working on another deal. Way too many people to announce today for there to be nothing public.

more like Duamrs is working on another deal. Way too many people to announce today for there to be nothing public.

Of course that's the delay, what was I thinking!

Maybe he's trying to hurry up and sign a cheap coach first so he doesn't have to do this again tomorrow.

Ian Thomsn - SI.com

The Pistons won't contend for a championship next season, but will they be challenging in three or four years?

That is the question raised by Detroit president Joe Dumars after he used most of his cap space to negotiate free-agent contracts with shooting guard Ben Gordon ($55 million over five years) and power forward Charlie Villanueva (five years at $35 million) this week.

The key measure of both newcomers is their ages. Gordon is 26 and Villanueva is 24, and they'll join with 23-year-old point guard Rodney Stuckey to begin developing a new long-term core for Detroit.

This new era was launched in November by the Pistons' painful decision to move Chauncey Billups to Denver for the expiring contract of Allen Iverson. By breaking up a unit that had reached six straight conference finals, Dumars made it clear that he was planning to reload the franchise with younger players without plummeting deep into the lottery. It is an ambitious goal that will be difficult to execute.

But these free-agent agreements amount to a good start for Detroit -- so long as they are viewed as opening moves, rather than finishing pieces. As replacements, Gordon and Villanueva don't measure up to the departed Billups or soon-to-be gone Rasheed Wallace, but consider the value of the latter stars before they arrived in Detroit more than five years ago. Billups had been with five teams in five years when he signed with Detroit for the mid-level exception starting at $4.6 million in 2002-03. Wallace's value was so low that the Pistons stole him in 2004 for several role players and a couple of draft picks.

Villanueva has been criticized as a perimeter-shooting power forward who doesn't rebound, but his rebounding numbers (6.7 per game in 26.9 minutes last season) compare favorably with Wallace's (7.4 in 32.2 minutes), and Villanueva is coming off an efficient 16.2-point season with Milwaukee. If he maintains that production for Detroit, his contract will be viewed as an excellent value.

The Pistons remain frontcourt-thin while they wait to see if 34-year-old big man Antonio McDyess returns to provide short-term relief. Eventually they may have to improve that area by moving 29-year-old small forward Tayshaun Prince, whose contract expires in 2010-11 at a salary of $11.1 million, or 31-year-old shooting guard Rip Hamilton, who will be the more difficult player to deal with four years and as much as $50 million remaining on the books.

Hamilton could have an extended future as Detroit's version of Reggie Miller, who late into his 30s continued to excel as an agile shooter on the move while providing leadership for the Pacers and their young, redeveloping roster.

Gordon's signing makes sense in a couple of ways. Though many teams have questioned the usefulness of a 6-foot-3 shooting guard, the Pistons can live with his size while pairing him with the 6-5 Stuckey at point guard. In addition, Gordon doesn't mind coming off the bench as long as he is on the floor down the stretch, when the Pistons could go with all three guards to create a variety of scoring options among Hamilton, Gordon and Stuckey.

Whether they hire Avery Johnson, Cavs assistant John Kuester or a surprise candidate (such as Jeff Van Gundy?) as their new coach, the Pistons will go into next season with less talent than Eastern favorites Orlando, Cleveland, Boston and Washington. Will Dumars be able to establish a stable environment for developing new talent as he continues to rejuvenate the roster?

The next coach will be Detroit's fifth in eight seasons. But the Pistons should have enough firepower to contend for the playoffs as they spend the next two or three years developing their new signings as well as first-round pick Austin Daye, a long-term project at small forward.

Crucial to Dumars' plan is to keep the Pistons in contention during this transition, so his players will have value in potential moves down the line. For fans who fancy themselves as armchair GMs, the Pistons are going to be an interesting franchise to study over the next several years
First off, How terrible would the defense be with Stuckey, Gordon, and Rip on the floor together? Especially if we don't get a dominant defensive C.

Interesting way of looking at things by saying they need to stay in contention so that the players have better trade value.

Good thing we don't have any Armchair GMs around here....

The defense would be ok assuming they have no legit scoring SF (which is probably only 1/3 of the teams at best).

I'd like to see us take a crack at Sean May if we can't get Glen Davis. A lot of untapped potential there, if Arnie thinks he can keep him in one piece.

yeah i mentioned may a while ago. health is a major issue though. ditto leon powe.

both are worth the look with our docs though.

I liked May when I watched him play. That's the problem though.

bass should be our first target though. he's a legit big who has already proven he can play. and he can play some C too which i love. he's 24 too which doesn't hurt.

he should be priority #1 IMO.

Pistons will target free agent Brandon Bass

Wednesday July 08, 2009, 9:05 PM

AUBURN HILLS -- With Antonio McDyess coming to terms with the San Antonio Spurs, Detroit will shift its free-agent focus toward Dallas Mavericks forward Brandon Bass.

"They (Pistons) are definitely on the short list," said Tony Dutt, Bass' agent.

In addition to Detroit, Dutt said Bass also is looking at Portland and Orlando.

"We're at a point where we feel good about all those teams," Dutt said.

The Pistons, who signed Ben Gordon (five years, $50 million) and Charlie Villanueva (five years, $35 million) on Wednesday, will need to clear more salary cap space to have a serious shot at landing the 24-year-old power forward.

That means the Pistons probably will have to make another trade, with shooting guard/small forward Arron Afflalo the most likely player to be moved.

Afflalo won't play much at shooting guard this season behind Richard Hamilton and Gordon. And while he has played some at small forward, Detroit drafted a trio of small forwards in June who, along with Hamilton at times, will play behind Tayshaun Prince.

As for Bass, he has been a solid player during the regular season who has become even more effective in the playoffs.

He has averaged 6.9 points and 3.9 rebounds per game during his four NBA seasons. In the playoffs, he has averaged 10.1 points and five rebounds per game while shooting 52 percent from the field.

"You don't see a lot of young power forwards today," Dutt said. "Detroit would be a great fit for Brandon. We'll see how it goes."

wow if we really gonna dump Afflalo to sign Bass, keep RIP AND Gordon Joe D has lost his mind, 11 mil benchplayer, nice! but then the rumored guranteed contract for Washington would make sense...still i dont like to dump Afflalo at all

Dumars isn't done remaking the roster, obviously. They have about $1.7 million left. As much as Antonio McDyess loves Dumars and is comfortable playing here, that's not going to get him back. He reportedly accepted a three-year deal from San Antonio, starting at $5.8 million. So, how is Dumars going to fill that hole in the middle? The $1.7 million won't buy him much.
If he could get a team willing to take Afflalo and Walter Sharpe for draft picks, he would have a little less than $2 million. That might put him in the running for Dallas' Brandon Back.


if there is really just 1.7 left, ( Langlois also mentioned the Pistons got less than 2 mil capspace left) it means Gordon got 58 mil total and CV 40 mil...

IF we dump AA then you can count out a deal for Rip. I doubt Joe would run with Gordon, Stuckey and Bynum + scrubs.

I noticed that the article states Powder got 5 years $35 mil! His starting salary would be a little over $6 million. That's cheap for a PF that can step out and hit jumpers plus put up 15 and 8. Nice deal.

Gordon's? Not happy with the price. I understand why we signed him but we overpaid. Those sign and trades rumours died and I'm not happy at all.

I'd rather we moved Rip for a C, especially if we signed Bass who is a bit undersized and has publicly said he doesn't like playing C. I'd understand trading Afflalo even if we moved Rip though, which would still make the Washington deal make sense. Stuckey is going to play some SG this year, and with the way Joe talked at the end of the season, I wouldn't be surprised if Stuckey is Gordon's primary backup with Stuckey, Gordon, Bynum being the 3 guard rotation and the #3 pg and Washington picking up any extra minutes.

P, why would the Bulls S&T him to us when we can already sign him straight up? What would we want to get rid of that they would want? If we have something of value, I don't see us dumping it for no reason.

Don't even say AI. The Bulls want nothing to do with him.

I was kinda hoping we could do a sign and trade and get Tyrus Thomas too.

I'm praying for a big man, any big man right now

MoTown is pretty tall.

If Joe D moves AA I will have a fit. He's one of the better youngsters that we have and the only guard that can play D worth a shit.

Why would they want to do that, though? It would make no sense for them. He's in the last year of his rookie deal. They'd want to keep him, give him one more shot to prove himself and then either let him walk, resign him, or S&T him as a restricted FA. Plus, if we wanted Thomas, couldn't we just trade for Thomas? Why would he have to be part of a S&T?

Without Gortat, the Magic have no front court depth. Bass to Magic is probably the most reasonable/realistic. With Max and Powder, Bass probably won't get as much PT here.

Magic signed a PF didn't they? Thus moving Rashard to SF? I thought that happened but it may have just been something discussed.

i'm still holding out hope that we deal for chandler.

If we can get kwame for Chandler, then i'd be happy about a Bass signing. If not, Bass doesn't make much sense.

Z, they did get Ryan Anderson, if that's who youre talking about. But then again he is a sophmore and i'm not sure if he could be the starting for a legit contending team

you mean chandler for kwame. but that wouldn't work under the cap according to my quick calculations. he makes only $4mil and chandler makes about 3 times that amount. add in the fact we only have a couple mil in cap room, at the most, and the deal doesn't work.

we'd have to throw in more salary.

Chandler and Max for Kwame works. Max clears 5mil off our books, Kwame clears 4mil, if we have a few mil in cap space we could get him (or we throw in another expiring deal like Afflalo, which I don't want to do).

Chandler and Max for Kwame works. Max clears 5mil off our books, Kwame clears 4mil, if we have a few mil in cap space we could get him (or we throw in another expiring deal like Afflalo, which I don't want to do).

And that leaves Chandler and Charlie as bigs with 3 vet's minimum guys?

Can we really trade two bigs for one right now?

yes.

two starting bigs trumps one starting big and two backups.

If it comes to it, they can trade rip for boozer.

We'd still have Rip to deal. You only do that deal if you're moving Rip.

Rip/Afflalo/1st for Howard/Carroll
Tay for a big (leaving work, not trying to think to hard)

Kwame/Max for Chandler

Stuckey/Bynum
Gordon/(Stuckey/)Carroll/Washington
Howard/Villanueva/Summers/Daye
PrinceTrade/Villanueva
Chandler/PrinceTrade/Vet

The guy from the Prince trade could also be a starting C, with Villanueva starting and the C and Chandler backing him up (plus a vet PF). Could Chandler play some PF?

Memphis renounced Mihm today, so he might be vet's min fodder

Can Mihm actually play, or has his career basically ended with his right ankle?

Chandler and Max for Kwame works. Max clears 5mil off our books, Kwame clears 4mil, if we have a few mil in cap space we could get him (or we throw in another expiring deal like Afflalo, which I don't want to do).

you mean max and kwame for chandler.

Z - The sign and trade thought I had was Maxiell/Iverson for Gordon/Tyrus Thomas.

Maxiell IMO would fit better with Noah, which is why there have been rumours about Tyrus being dealt.

My idea was likely unrealistic - but I'm hanging by a very thin thread right now. We better get a big soon or I'll explode.

Weren't you the one preaching patience on July 2?

What has changed on July 10?

I assume you're being sarcastic.

I'm hanging by a very thin thread GD.

I'm trying not to swear.

I'm cutting down my smoking

Joe is leaving me hanging on the big man front.

Something's gotta give, man.

Couldn't we just deal Max for Thomas? It doesn't matter now because Thomas is headed to Portland, I suppose.

Bucher said the deal is dead. The Bulls are saying the deal is dead.

apparently it never had legs. but there has to be more movement coming. from around the nba but more importantly from OUR team too. this can't be the finished product.

granted we can expect a signing here or there- using the rest of our cap room and one or 2 with the vet's minimum. but who are we really going to get without making at least one fairly significant trade?

come on trader joe! make it happen.

I love Portland's approach with it's cap space right now.

Get the Millsap offer sheet signed, and then who cares if your $ is tied up for a week, since they are KING, if the Jazz match it, there are still a ton of trade possibilities to worth with, no need to panic, the cap space isn't going away until they use it.

The Hedo thing falling through might be the best thing for them in the end.

The Hedo thing falling through might be the best thing for them in the end.

Couldn't agree more. They're in a position to be able to do a lot of different things, and have the leverage to pick the best option. Right now, they either get a nice young big at a very reasonable contract, or they have the cap space to have teams calling about lopsided deals done for financial reasons. I thought Detroit might be a little more patient this summer, since there weren't many teams to compete with so there'd be some good players left without a team.

Has Portland done away with the Miles issue? Looks like he's not giving them the cap hit I thought he was.

They would have had double the cap room they have now.

I'm trying to see how they had enough cap up front for that signing bonus (10 mil due in the first week).

I'm trying to see how they had enough cap up front for that signing bonus (10 mil due in the first week).

The signing bonus is spread across all 4 years of the contract ($1.4 million each year), but paid up front, obviously. The contract also calls for 80% of the salary to be paid up front as well.

The signing bonus is spread across all 4 years of the contract ($1.4 million each year), but paid up front, obviously. The contract also calls for 80% of the salary to be paid up front as well.
That paid up front part may be what gets them Millsap. Do the Utah owners want to pay that much money up front? Forget about salary cap, luxury tax, and all that jazz. That's real money coming straight from their pockets right away.

Jens (Cologne, Germany): I don’t understand why the league set it up so that teams under the cap can’t use their biannual and mid-level exceptions but teams over the cap can. There was a price for getting so far under the cap (trading Chauncey, then having to renounce Rasheed). Teams like Boston, Cleveland and San Antonio are loaded with big contracts and well over the cap but they can sign good players like Wallace and McDyess. There is a clear disadvantage for teams that are rebuilding.

Langloistat: The rules are the rules. The exceptions were added for capped-out teams so that there could still be some player movement possible even when most teams are over the cap. One of the goals of the CBA is to reward teams who’ve done a good job drafting and developing players by giving them built-in advantages to retain their own player. That’s why teams can sign their own free agents for six years and other teams can sign them for only five, and they can give their own free agents annual 10.5 percent raises and other teams can give only 8 percent hikes. This was the Pistons’ shot at retooling on the fly without having to crater like most teams do. Joe D probably hopes he won’t be in position to get so far below the cap again for many years. What I really like about how he used the cap space is he got two young players with plenty of growth potential in Gordon, 26, and Villanueva, 24. And next year, when there are more quality free agents on the market than there will be big-money deals available – a byproduct of the likelihood the cap is going to fall significantly and cut into the cap space most teams had projected – the Pistons are going to be a very attractive team with a very young core that will put them in a very good spot to land a desirable player with their own MLE.


Rick (South Lyon, Mich.): Why would Joe D be interested in Glen Davis? Don’t we already have that in Jason Maxiell? Shouldn’t they be targeting a center who has skills that Kwame Brown doesn’t have?

Langlois: Not sure why having Maxiell precludes a run at Davis. Maxiell is a defender and offensive rebounder. Davis is much more a skilled big man who can score inside and out to 18 feet. He’s a bigger body, not as athletic. But even if he had the same skill set, the Pistons simply are in a position of needing another big body. Davis is one of the better big bodies still available, though teams aren’t going to be able to low-ball him and steal him from Boston.

We don't have anywhere for information on current Pistons and the offseason...


Kwame Brown, C, Detroit

The Pistons made the first moves of free agency by agreeing to deals with Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva right away, but they've yet to replace Rasheed Wallace, who is off to Boston.

The strength of the Pistons for the last several years has been their balance and their ability to put five guys on the floor that can all shoot the ball from the perimeter. Without Wallace manning the five, that ability is gone, but the additions of Gordon and Villanueva make the Pistons more potent at the other four positions.

Brown obviously hasn't lived up to his No. 1 pick status, but he's turned into a good low-post defender and solid role player. He won't be asked to score much, but that role will be bigger this season

Lee hasn't signed any sort of offer sheet yet has he? I just realized that his name hasn't been floating around at all. If we got him, we'd definitely still need a C. Lee is solid against PFs, especially the athletic sort, but he gets handled by big physical guys. That's exactly what CV does, right? We'd have no depth at C if we used Kwame to get him, and I don't think NY is doing a S&T for Max.

Reason #1 we can ignore Lee:
NY doesn't want Maxiell and we wouldn't trade for Lee without moving Max. Our only other option would be Kwame and that would leave us with 3 PFs and no C.
If we somehow convinced the Knicks to do Lee for Max and a 1st, I'd be shocked. We'd absolutely have to move Rip for a C, since we'd have no cap room left. Either that or we'd be starting CV at SF and moving Prince for a C.

Reason #2:
Villanueva is our starting PF. I'm fully convinced that when Dumars brought him in and talked to him about signing here, he told him that he'd be the starter. I could be wrong and he could have just said "you'll get X minutes without a problem and a chance to be our starter, plus we're bringing in Gordon" but I'd guess he starts for us.
We're not starting Lee and CV. A guy like Dwight Howard, with no real post game, would annihilate us based on size alone.

Agreed. That all said, I will be sorely disappointed with our C position if we address it by using it to net a $3.6M rather than using it with Kwame or Max or even Bynum to net us someone much better. 3.6M is 7.2 in savings if teams are over the tax as well as the extra 10% in trade value.

Would you want to offer big Baby a deal starting at 3.6M x long term? Would he accept it? Would Boston Match?

Actually I just saw another possible move of Kwame and cap space for Jeff Foster. Indy already has Murphy and Hibbert long term and Foster is signed for another season after this one. Just to get out of his deal and save 2 mill, I think they do that one. Foster is definitely serviceable.

No. Maybe. Probably.

I really hope Big Baby is not part of our future.

At 6'9, he can't play center. We already have Maxiell. Would Boston match? Probabyl not

I really hope Big Baby is not part of our future.

At 6'9, he can't play center. We already have Maxiell. Would Boston match? Probabyl not

I agree, I honestly don't see any upside in signing an undersized buffer state like Glen Davis, and I'm puzzled as to why there's even been rumors suggesting Joe is even entertained at the idea of signing him.

I wouldn't touch Big Baby or Gooden. Neither is a starting center and if you sign either, that is all you have for years to come. You give up all cap space going forward.

I would trade Max/cap space for an expiring big (Boozer or other), sign Joe Smith for 1 year and make your play at Bosh/Amare next year.

Joe has to do a trade with this space. If he signs a backup big and makes no trades we're screwed for 3-4 years.

I wouldn't touch Big Baby or Gooden. Neither is a starting center and if you sign either, that is all you have for years to come. You give up all cap space going forward.

I would trade Max/cap space for an expiring big (Boozer or other), sign Joe Smith for 1 year and make your play at Bosh/Amare next year.

Joe has to do a trade with this space. If he signs a backup big and makes no trades we're screwed for 3-4 years.


i would be fine with a backup signing, but we really crippeld ourself with RIPs and Maxiells extensions, 17 mil these guys for the next 4 years really hurts a lot

by the way, this is the best i could come up with how the Pistons salary structure looks right now...

its seems there is only a question about what Gordons starting salary is, Charlies should be really close to 7 mil, if the deal is 5/40 mil.

BEFORE:

Hamilton: 11.625
Prince: 10. 32438
Charlie V: 6.9
Maxiel: 5
Kwame: 4
Oberto: 1.9
Stuckey: 1.80504
Afflalo: 1.08624
Bynum: .825497
Sharpe: . 736420
Austin Daye (caphold): 1.3982
= 45.5 for 11 players
57.7 - 45.5 = 12.2 left - 1.7 remaining capspace (1.7 number is from Langlois, McCosky,Stein) leaves 10.5 starting salary for Ben Gordon...yikes

NOW:
RIP: 11.6
GORDON: 10.5
Tay: 10.3
CV: 6.9
Max: 5
Kwame: 4
Oberto:1.9
Stuckey: 1.8
Bynum: 0.8
Daye: 1.4
= 54.2 /// 57.7 - 54.2 = 3.5 mil ...there is your 3.5 mil capspace, but we still only got 8 players under contract right now + Daye caphold = 9, so shouldnt there be a caphold for another 3 minimum players right now?

Here's Dave Dial's chart.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r118/DD2K/Pistons2009salariesB.jpg

that would be 4.2 mil capspace, but again Stein, McCosky, Langlois talk about 3.5 mil capspace left after the trade

After the recent signings of Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva, Detroit will have an estimated $3.5 million in cap space after completing this deal.

maybe Dials got Gordon salary right, and Charlies wrong, add 0.8 and we're at 3.5 remaining capspace again

I would trade Max/cap space for an expiring big (Boozer or other), sign Joe Smith for 1 year and make your play at Bosh/Amare next year.

Just because we have Boozer coming off the books does not in any way mean that we'll have his entire salary in cap space next year. The cap is going to move, all of our current players except Max will be getting a raise, and we're not getting Bosh/Amare for 10-12 million a year. They're going to command over 15 million, especially after all of these teams have been clearing cap space to prepare for next year. LeBron is going to get a max offer. Wade is going to get a max offer. These guys are going to get near-max offers for sure.

I didn't go by his salary, I went by what salaries we'd have on the books. I included AA and Sharpe off the books, and not using the cap space we have now for anything beyond a 1 year deal. I said 15-18 mil giving a cusion for the cap moving around. There is no way to know what it will be exactly. But, I'd rather take a chance on that then sign Big Baby and hope we can find a center down the road via trade.

Detroit is still exploring ways to make a deal for Utah Jazz forward Carlos Boozer(notes), but the most likely scenario centers around the free-agent signing of Drew Gooden(notes), and distantly, Boston’s Glen “Big Baby” Davis.

I don't like Glen Davis. I really don't like Glen Davis at center. I'm going to throw up if he plays center for the pistons

I'd be ok with him as a backup center. Starting? hell no.

We won't have a C.

We're just gonna have the 5 best offensive dudes we can find and play them together.

If that means playing 5 guards then so be it.

Yeah, we'd really have to work hard on D...

OR

We can just blitz everybody by scoring 120+ppg!

That's the way forward people! Running and gunning and jacking shit up.

It worked for Phoenix! What? They haven't been to the Finals since 1993? Really? I thought they were shit hot...

....or, we have a trade coming up for a center.

What say we wait until, i dunno, the offseason ENDS before we pass judgment?

Really?

What a concept, Kstat!

WOW!

Consider my mind so totally blown!

I couldn't grasp it at first...

No, wait I did.

And then Joe realised he fucked up and had to shift Afflalo to Denver!

Or did he have that move pre-planned, too?

...or a trade became available and he needed to shed an extra 1.5 mi to make it work?

Again, you don't know.

Take a vacation. I'm about to. Apparently every day you wake up and see Joe hasn't made a trade yet, you take it a personal insult, without noticing Joe has about 150 days left to make a deal...

You might be waiting a day, or another 4 months. Either way, chill the fuck out.

...or a trade became available and he needed to shed an extra 1.5 mi to make it work?

Again, you don't know.

Take a vacation. I'm about to. Apparently every day you wake up and see Joe hasn't made a trade yet, you take it a personal insult, without noticing Joe has about 150 days left to make a deal...

You might be waiting a day, or another 4 months. Either way, chill the fuck out.

If a trade became available and he had to shed an extra 1.5 mil to make it work why would the trade take place in 4 months time?

Shouldn't it come pretty soon?

Or are you just grasping for answers while you pretend to know what I'm thinking, why I'm posting or what the fuck is going on inside my tiny little mind at 11:40pm, July 16th on a Wednesday Night

If a trade became available and he had to shed an extra 1.5 mil to make it work why would the trade take place in 4 months time?

Shouldn't it come pretty soon?


i hope so...

No answer, Kstat?

Or did you log off?

Sooner or later, we are going to have to sign those draft picks. When that happens, our cap room is gone. Apparently Joe just made that trade just to have some cap space in case something came up. Seeing as we made no immediate move, it gives me the impression that we had no specific move in mind when we made this deal. Hopefully JD can still get us someone, but if Ben is the best we can do, we probably could have got him with the 1.7M we had before and kept AA, who I did like. Anyone better, and I won't have an objection.

I like AA, and I'd have rather kept him, but if we're actually keeping Rip, there will be less than zero minutes available at SG. As I've said before, Rip will want 30+mpg, Gordon will want 30+mpg and there are only 48 minutes at SG to go around. That means Afflalo wouldn't have been anywhere but the bench all season. Joe had suggested Stuckey getting some SG time in his offseason presser, so even if we move Rip, Gordon gets 35mpg then Stuckey gets 10 minutes at SG, that leaves 3 for Afflalo. For 3 minutes a game, you can use someone like Washington.

Washington sucks. That is all.

Z - you fail to realise that AA was an asset that had value.

He's an expiring contract worth $1 mil

And/Or

He's a reasonably talented, hard working young player that is cheap.

I can not fathom how Joe Dumars thought Afflalo was neither.

That really blows my mind.

Z - you fail to realise that AA was an asset that had value.

He's an expiring contract worth $1 mil

And/Or

He's a reasonably talented, hard working young player that is cheap.

I can not fathom how Joe Dumars thought Afflalo was neither.

That really blows my mind.


Wait a sec, have you considered that he was a contract with enough value to trade for cap space? That may be worth more that either of those.

Drew Gooden rumors picking up.

I did consider that Hermy...

Then I realised that we had damn near $18 mil to spend on July 1st.

And I thought that if Joe couldn't grab his guys when he had that much money to spend how on Earth is $1.5mil gonna make a difference now?

And I also thought that if Joe wanted an additional $1.5mil in cap space he might have signed Ben Gordon to a smaller starting salary.

But I've been told I think too much about this stuff. It's still July, we've still got some cap space and apparently are still in the market for dudes like Gooden and Ben Wallace!

I've commented that I don't believe he could sign Gordon to a smaller salary, or he would have.

And the fact he got 2 fags with his 15 is independant of what we do with the shiny new cash he has now.

Well, you can call the signings what you wish and if you're excited about the prospect of Joe having more cap room to spend on another one then more power to you, sir.

If you believe Gordon could not be had for a smaller salary then that's what you believe. I personally believe we didn't need to go down this road just yet but Joe had his heart set on BG and that's what we got.

Well, you can call the signings what you wish and if you're excited about the prospect of Joe having more cap room to spend on another one then more power to you, sir.

If you believe Gordon could not be had for a smaller salary then that's what you believe. I personally believe we didn't need to go down this road just yet but Joe had his heart set on BG and that's what we got.


I am not excited about the cap room, Joe must have been. Or he was excited about the 2nd round pick....or just thought AA sucked and couldn't hit that corner 3.

I believe Joe negotiates with players and I presume that is what he did with BG. Who knows if he could have held out for less, but I'd appreciate it if people around here would quit with the "we could have had money if..." take when we don't know and should presume otherwise. It doesn't seem applicable to bring it back up in this thread when none of us have been privy to GM-Agent negotiations.

Bridge
Water.

if we dumped Afflalo for Drew Gooden, there is something terribly wrong with Joe D's head...

Not necessarily, and I'm in the same boat as you guys, not wanting Gooden.

Afflalo was going to get almost no playing time this year with Rip and Gordon (and Stuckey) ahead of him at SG. If you take a guy that's going to be a bench warmer at a position that's already stacked, and you turn that into a guy that will get playing time at a position of serious need, that's an improvement. Even if you hate that guy, he's doing more for your team than the other player would have sitting on the bench. I wanted to keep Afflalo, but if we HAD to move him to shore up our frontcourt, then there's not really anything we can do about that.

As for this offseason, the day I will consider it a success is the day we move Rip or BG proves he can reliably play 10 minutes of PG per game. Until then, it was executed poorly.
If Rip gets moved, I have no problem with BG being targeted by Dumars. He wanted a combo guard to compliment Stuckey, and BG is a combo guard. He wanted a guy that could handle the ball, which Gordon can. He wanted someone that was a 3pt shooter, and that's Gordon. Gordon pretty much fills everything Joe was trying to improve this offseason outside of the frontcourt.
We can rag on his defense all we want, but if Stuckey can guard SGs then it won't be as big of an issue. We were all willing to overlook Big Ben's beyond-putrid offense because of his No-Fly-Zone defense, but we aren't even willing to give Gordon a shot as a potential offensive dynamo?
CV wasn't a bad signing either. The guy is a versatile player that has been showing improvements every year and we got him for a starting salary of $6.5m, not bad at all I'd say. If we still had all of the cap space from the Gordon signing, no one would be complaining about the CV deal.

Unfortunately, with our apparently lack of depth at C, the Gordon signing seems like more of a luxury than a need. We'd have needed a PF this offseason no matter what, so CV was a smart move.

You know, Laimbeer doesn't have a job right now.