So what about the Pistons? Word is they may make a serious run at Carlos Boozer (and possibly Gordon, too).
http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/blog/2009/04/lee_should_consider_the_ben_go.html

Not a fan of Gordon. We all know how AI/Stuckey worked. I either want Stuckey to continue to be the PG and learn or move RIP and get a true PG in here.

I'm sick of roles not being clear.

I like the sig Chris.

Oh really Fool?

LOL

Potential Pistons targets: Boozer wants to stay; Gordon noncommittal

BY VINCE ELLIS • FREE PRESS SPORTS WRITER • May 5, 2009

Here's an update on two players -- Utah's Carlos Boozer and Chicago's Ben Gordon -- who are possible targets of the Pistons this summer when they attempt to overhaul their roster.

Boozer, although he expressed to the Salt Lake Tribune his desire to return, is expected to opt out of the last season of a deal that would pay him more than $12 million next season and become a free agent because of his desire for a long-term deal.

According to the Tribune, Boozer's best option might be to hang around for a season because few teams (such as the Pistons) would have the cap space to sign him outright as a free agent this summer.

If he decided to stay put, he becomes prime trade bait as the Jazz may try to get something for him before he leaves.

As for Gordon, the unrestricted free agent probably helped himself by averaging 24.3 points per game for the Bulls in their seven-game series loss to the Celtics.

It seems doubtful the Bulls would be able to keep Gordon since they already have $63 million in salary commitments for next season with the salary cap expected to be around $57 million.

"I really don't know (what will happen)," Gordon told Bulls.com after Chicago was eliminated Saturday night. "I'm just going to have to wait and see what my options are. See what the Bulls want to do and go from there. I'd like to be here. ... So you never know."

Boozer wanting to stay probably means millsapp can be had for the right price.

Problem is, it has to be high enough to make Utah choke on the potential tax numbers, and I'm not sure Millsapp is worth that dough.

Ben Gordon is really interesting as a 6th man, but he will never sign on to be a 6th man, and we already have 1 1/2 starting SGs.

Can never have too many.

Especially if some of them are gonna play PG!

i don't see players rushing to sign with us. we're gonna have to use our cap room to trade for guys and build this team with draft picks. when we've assembled more talent and start to climb back to respectability again, THEN we might have a shot at signing elite FAs.

not many guys will want to sign with a sub .500 team that not only isn't a contender, but a team that could quite possible be even WORSE next year.

If guys are FAs they would suck joe's dick to get our money.

you think so? i seem to recall us having the same problem when hill left- lots of money to spend and nobody wanted it. we had to go the sign-and-trade route to get anybody and we got 2 sleeper players in atkins and wallace.

money is money. but i just don't see the best available players jumping at the chance to go to detroit. what other than money would attract them at this point?

yes, i know. money is a huge thing. but it's not the ONLY thing. and i really don't see us getting the top names as nothing on the basketball side of things would appeal to them.

what sort of supporting cast would they have? head coach?

we should dump curry the second the hornets let byron scott go and let him be our coach. then we need to tear apart the roster and start over. a coach like scott would be more attractive to FAs and would be good as a teacher for a rebuilding team.

coaches come and go. players would like to play with rip/tay. and money is the only thing for guys under the max. Cwebb would have had to take less to play for us.

I don't want Gordon. 1 - He chucked the Bulls right out of any chance they had to take game 7, truly horrible shot selection and wild 3's all game. 2 - He is somewhat known for hitting his shots when it doesn't count, kind of like ARoid.

If we had a solid coach I wouldn't be so against him.

what is so appealing about playing with rip and prince? i don't mean to be rude, but seriously- outside of them being 2 really nice guys, what is the great appeal of playing with them?

players want to play with great players. players who can ball with them and help them win a ring. neither rip or prince is a difference maker who players would come running to play with IMO.

i'm not saying they're scrubs by any means. but i'm just saying- there are tons of good players out there with better talent and more promising futures than those 2. i love them and they've done great things for detroit. but they seem to be doing little more than occupying big salary slots on the team now.

yeah rip can light it up for 30 now and then and he's still a nice player. but he can't hang with the young athletes of the game today. so what we see happen over and over is that in key situations he will be outplayed or will fail to finish and take over like i would expect a 2 guard to do. i'm just saying- we shouldn't live in the past and think about what these guys did. we shoudl look at what they can do now and how they can help us in the future.

and IMHO although it hurts to say it, i think both players would be worth more to this team as trade bait for our rebuild.

they both are willing passers and play hard on defense. Any big man would love to play with them.

those qualities can be said of a lot of players though. and they both have deficiencies in other areas that make them dinosaurs in today's style of play IMO.

if they were playing lesser roles, sure their value would be greater IMO. but with both making over $11 mil a year and being key starters.....i think they leave us with no chance of seriously competing going into the future.

if we had dwight howard that would help lessen some of their shortcomings. but we have no chance to acquire a big man THAT good. and even if we did, we'd have to trade at least one of them away anyway.

finally, IMO neither player played a whole lot of defense this year anyway. i think both players are not only rapidly approaching the downside of their careers, but they seem to be doing so at a time when the style of play in the league is changing to a game that they simply don't excel at.

i'm not saying both players are done. they've got several years left. but i wouldn't want them at that pricetag and in their current roles. we need younger, hungry athletes who can get to the rim and finish or take their man off the dribble and create offense. and who can challenge their opponent athletically on defense. someone quick and who plays with a 'suddenness' and sense of urgency. neither tay or rip does that at all.

i think 1 of them definitely needs to go this offseason, if not both of them. rip would be my first choice. but as i said, at the pricetag of $11 mil, i think trading prince is in our best interest also. i think that money can be better spent under our new salary structure, heading into the future.

JMO

finally, IMO neither player played a whole lot of defense this year anyway. i think both players are not only rapidly approaching the downside of their careers, but they seem to be doing so at a time when the style of play in the league is changing to a game that they simply don't excel at.
The opponent PER for Rip and Tay indicates they're above-average defenders. They're not stellar, but they're not where our D lagged against most opponents. Just from my own two eyes, it's the less-mobile older bigs and AI defending at PG that really sunk us.

Derek (Forest, Ohio): I don’t feel Ben Gordon would be a good fit for us, just like AI never really fit the Pistons’ style. What about trading Prince and Amir plus draft picks for Chris Bosh, make an offer to David Lee and sign either Shawn Marion or Marvin Williams. Draft DeJuan Blair, which would make Jason Maxiell expendable. You’d have a starting five of Stuckey, Rip, Marion or Williams, Lee and Bosh. Is this possible within the cap?

Langlois: Maybe. As I explained above, a trade of Prince and Amir for Bosh would mean taking on about an additional $1.5 million. So let’s say that leaves the Pistons with $15 million in cap space. Would that be enough to get both Lee and Williams? Close. Lee is making noise about wanting $10 million a year. I don’t think he’ll get it. But if the Pistons offered significantly less – say a first-year salary of $8.5 million – my hunch is the Knicks would match. And that would leave them even less than that, $7.5 million, to sign Williams. And my hunch is that Atlanta would match that, too, though you never know given the instability of Hawks ownership. Marion would be an easier get, since he’s an unrestricted free agent, but how much do they want to invest in a guy who appears to be starting to hit the downside?


Bill (Grand Rapids, Mich.): Of the top unrestricted frontcourt free agents, who do you think Joe D might be interesting in signing from among Shawn Marion, Ron Artest, Lamar Odom, Drew Gooden, Chris Wilcox, Trevor Ariza and Zaza Pachulia.

Langlois: Hmmm. I don’t particularly see any one of those players as being in the first wave of pursued players. I’d make all of them long shots, Gooden and Wilcox especially. I’d concentrate more on Carlos Boozer and Ben Gordon.


David (Las Vegas): How do you really feel about Boozer? He is on a team that has one of the best point guards in the game, another solid big man in Okur and they still couldn’t get out of the first round. Is he even worth a big contract?

Langlois: I think Boozer is 27 and when he’s healthy he routinely puts up 20-plus points and 10-plus rebounds – and I think the Pistons don’t have someone remotely close to that capability. Utah didn’t make it past the first round because the Jazz were playing a pretty good team and never really hit their stride this season because of all the injuries they absorbed and the lineup jockeying they experienced. If they can get him for something averaging around $12 million to $13 million a season over five years, I think you’d have to take the plunge.

Sam Smith


Could BG end up in Detroit?

--- The Pistons are supposed to be the big players in free agency by letting go Rasheed Wallace and Allen Iverson. Carlos Boozer and Ben Gordon have been mentioned as possibilities. Now, you have to figure Hedo Turkoglu with the playoffs he’s had, though one team executive says he doesn’t expect the Pistons to be throwing around huge, maximum deals because of the collapse of the auto industry and major sponsorship deals the team is losing with inevitable attendance declines.

Sam Smith never ceases to amaze.

Who are pistons going to give a max deal to in this free agent class??? What the hell kind of declaration is that?

Why do peeps hate Rashard Lewis so much? Does he just disappear? Cuz he had his shit together in Seattle, iirc.

Because he makes $20 million a year to do what amounts to stand in a corner and take wide open threes. He's 6'10" and can't defend, rebound or post up.

Man that guy sucks

put him on the pistons and he'd be the most hated guy on the team.

Sam (Fort Myers, Fla.): Brandon Bass has become an emerging star in Dallas – a real hustle guy and a great finisher down low. What’s the chance the Pistons make a bid on him this off-season?

Langlois: It’s possible. He’s very happy in Dallas and the Mavs would love to keep him – among other reasons, he’s tight with Dirk Nowitzki, and it’s always good to surround your franchise player with players that make him happy. But the Mavs have big designs this summer that start with retaining Jason Kidd, so it’s possible Bass, an unrestricted free agent, lands a decent deal – something along the order of Jason Maxiell’s four-year, $20 million extension signed last fall – that the Mavs wouldn’t entertain. I think the Pistons start with more obvious targets, but Bass would be an alternative.


Jose (Lansing, Mich.): I really like Rodney Carney, Trevor Ariza, Chris Wilcox and Drew Gooden as possible Plan Bs in case our other plans fall through. They are all younger than 28 and could all fill a need at a decent price.

Langlois: Ariza, perhaps. The rest are Plan Cs.

rodney carney should be one of our top targets. i didn't say we should pay him top dollar, but he should be one of our top targets.

kid is exactly the type of player we need- RIDICULOUS athlete who can hit the deep ball and finish off the dribble. he's a star waiting to emerge and a guy we should heavily pursue.

Rodney x 2

The fact that the Pistons' shill mentioned Carney as a plan C tells me all I need to know about Joe's plan:

Spend all the money on Boozer and 1 other guy and hope for the best.

God I hope I'm wrong but every article is leaning that way.

What is wrong with constructing a young TEAM that will work it's ass off?

I'm not saying spend the money on crap players - spend it on guys that will develop WITH Stuckey to form a potent team.

Boozer? I don't care if he's 26 or 27 - dude isn't gonna team with anyone. He's gonna come in and wanna be the Man and quite frankly the dude is fucking damaged goods and has no loyalty or honour at all.

I'm not worried that he left the Cavs for more money - good choice. If he blows out a knee and his career is done at least he got PAID.

He fucking chose Utah and they are always in the playoffs. They got a great Coach, a quality team and a young quality PG.

Why the fuck does he want out so bad? Shut the fuck up and play for a winner - the winner you chose you stupid prick.

If we sign him I will be seriously fucking pissed - Australia getting knocked out of the soccer World Cup pissed! That's how pissed I'll be.

Boozer is a loser :) ...he has serious flaws in his game, no D no leadership, we're fucked if we sign him..

I think this means Valter is going to Spain.

http://www.basketnews.net/asp.net/main.news/details.aspx?id=3085

Either that or he just washed his socks in pee.

rodney carney should be one of our top targets. i didn't say we should pay him top dollar, but he should be one of our top targets.

kid is exactly the type of player we need- RIDICULOUS athlete who can hit the deep ball and finish off the dribble. he's a star waiting to emerge and a guy we should heavily pursue.


Wow. Just wow.

I hope that was sarcasm. The sheer weight of such stupidity could crush a human being like a 5,000 lb boulder.

Rodney...Carney....A guy that will be lucky to be in the NBA once his contract runs up. Hilarious.

While we're at it, let's go after James white too, since actual basketball skill means nothing in here.

Callng Carney a "D" plan would be generous. He's barely even an NBA player.

Ladies night just won't be the same...

The fact that the Pistons' shill mentioned Carney as a plan C tells me all I need to know about Joe's plan:
It tells me he has a functional brain and an IQ of above 85, both of which would be prerequisites for anybody not wanting to make Rodney Carney a target in free agency.

It tells me he has a functional brain and an IQ of above 85, both of which would be prerequisites for anybody not wanting to make Rodney Carney a target in free agency.

It's getting violent in here.

lol- you obviously haven't watched carney closely. that's OK. you've got your opinion, i've got mine. i won't resort to personal insults just because i don't agree with your position.

he's 25 years old and has a ton of talent and is ready for a breakout. have you watched him closely? be honest. i have and i think this kid would be a great addition and bring a lot of the qualities we so sorely lack.

i didn't say we should build our franchise on his back. but i believe he has the personality and ability to blossom into a nice player.

the comparison to james white shows me you either don't know much about carney, or white, or either. take your pick.

Uh, I have watched Carney. And so has the rest of the NBA, which is why he couldn't produce even on some of the NBA's worst teams.

When I see a guy averaging 7 and 2 in 18 minutes on %41 shooting, I do not say "boy, he's ready to break out!"

John Hollinger, is that you?

so numbers tell it all? OK buddy. so if a guy doesn't put up numbers on a bad team, he's automatically a bad player?

if that's your position i'm not going to argue with you. you can see things that way but i don't go just on that. i see his game and i see his talent. and i believe he will flourish in the right environment.

and i believe he will flourish in the right environment.

The NBDL.

lol- BTW, what do you think of ariza k-stat?

same thing I thought of him when he was on shitty teams. Put Kobe Bryant or Lebron james on the floor with him and he'll look like an NBA player.

I don't know much about Carne... I do recall that he was rated the top athlete of his draft class.

so was gerald green.

Kstat is allowed to shit on Carney. That's his choice. All you gotta do is pull his game logs for his entire career and see if he's ever done shit.

Same for Gerald Green (who people used to dream about and then he dropped off the face of the Earth or something)

Until some people actually post their "plans" for this off-season I don't care who shits on who or who praises who.

This site has the brains to post a thousand off-season plans, yet there are so few posted...

It's pretty fucking easy to sit back and comment on everyone else's ideas of how we should spend the cap space and what trades we should try to put together.

How about posting some of your own ideas and see how they get received?

Is that too much to ask?

Why is it that everyone has a fucking opinion but when it's time to show and tell certain people shut the fuck up?

Things that me go mmmmmFUCK!!!!!!!!!!!111

^troof

BTW, GD - if you have time some day soon could you possibly grab all my "plans" and copy them into some thread where we can keep them together?

Right now they're everywhere and I can't remember where they all are. I think I might have 4 posted now.

You can remove them from their threads if it doesn't fuck with the discussion.

Can you do that for me GD? Thanks! lol

I like you a lot, but I don't LOVE you.

My wife doesn't get as much time from me as that would take.

Fuck you to, pal.

Who paid for your new teeth, cocksucker?

Rodrigocon (Indaiatuba, Brazil): What’s your opinion about Anderson Varejao, who’ll be a free agent?

Langlois: I like Varejao a lot. He’s the best flopper in the league, and I don’t mean that disparagingly. It’s an art form. But he’s also a terrific defender, aside from the flopping. Rasheed Wallace had increasing trouble the last three years squeezing off decent shots when Varejao guarded him. I look at Varejao the same way I look at David Lee. Players that thrive without needing the ball are rare and valuable. There’s been an acrimonious history between Varejao’s agent, Dan Fegan, the Danny Ferry, but it seems like there’s a decent chance common sense will prevail and both sides will realize it’s a great fit.

fuck andy

Andy can't guard Howard and he can't guard Lewis either. He may be good against jump shooting PF/C's like TD, but he can't muscle Howard and he can't stay with combo forwards. Solid role player, but you'd need an all star big next to him.

According to a report from DraftExpress.com, Detroit's top free agent targets are Ben Gordon and Paul Millsap. The Pistons currently have approximately $20 million in cap space, but could create more room by dealing the 15th overall pick, along with Amir Johnson.

The Thunder are a potential trading partner, according to the report. They would likely look at B.J. Mullens with the pick.

If we add Gordon and Millsaip and that's our offseason I'm not watching this team next year. Why move Billups and then sign Gordon to an even bigger contract after just watching how a chucker like AI worked out here? Millsaip is not enough in the post either. He's a good complimentary player.

Ben Gordon is not AI. Gordon is a pure shooter, AI is a slasher. Gordon is also 8 years younger than AI.

Millsapp is a 20/10 player the second he gets a full-time starting job. You can win with him if you get a shot blocker next to him. If not, he can be taken advantage of defensively.

Come to think of it, I'd sign off on both of these acquisitions if we got a guy in the middle that could defend the paint. I wouldn't even care if he could score or not, because millsapp, stuckey and Gordon would put up a lot of points. Pryzbilla, perhaps?

Tayshaun for Przybilla and Travis Outlaw would make a lot of sense for both teams.

Przybilla would be the ideal counterpart for millsapp and gordon, both of whom are decent defenders but undersized.

Of course,you'd have to deal rip to make it all work. I'd love to see Joe go out and get Chris Kaman for Rip. We'd actually have some real zie up front for once.

So we sign Gordon and Millsaip...what SG comes off the bench? Gordon? I doubt he signs here to be a bench player. RIP? we know how that worked.

I'll consider Gordon the second we move RIP for a big man, but not a day sooner.

You move RIP for Kamen or Okefor, sign Millsaip and I'll be cool with Gordon (I still think I'd prefer Turk though).

Okefor
Millsaip
Kamen

Who are these people!!?

Are you doing this intentionally? Because if you are, it's working, lol

Thx glan.

Okefor
Millsaip
Kamen

Who are these people!!?

Are you doing this intentionally? Because if you are, it's working, lol

They are players in a bizzaro world.

Spelling correctly is lame.

I'd prefer Gordon over Turk, simply because Turk is 30 years old already.

Granted his game isn't all that athletic to begin with and he's got good enough ball handling and shooting to be a contributor for a long time but...

Gordon is younger, can also shoot it from deep and can also handle the ball some. If both are asking for the same money I vote for Gordon...

And then I'd trade Rip for a big man

can't emphasize enough how much shot blocking and defense we would need at the 3 and 5 spots to make up for gordon and millsapp's lack of size.

I'd prefer Gordon over Turk, simply because Turk is 30 years old already.

Granted his game isn't all that athletic to begin with and he's got good enough ball handling and shooting to be a contributor for a long time but...

Gordon is younger, can also shoot it from deep and can also handle the ball some. If both are asking for the same money I vote for Gordon...

And then I'd trade Rip for a big man

Why? Turk can attack the basket just as effectively. Turk shoots %45 from 3, Gordon %41. Turk has 2 rebounds and 2 assists more a game. Plus, he causes mismatches. He'd force teams to go big and not play guards that cannot match up with him. Gordon would simply allow SG's to guard Stuckey, while Turk would force them to put a small PG on Stuckey (allowing him to muscle them at the basket). Turk is only 4 years older than Gordon too.

I'd rather be creating mismatches and having a guy that can help out the forwards on the glass. Plus Stuckey could play off the ball more (Gordon is a scorer, not facilitator).

I'd like to see a decent young center (Okefor, Biedrins, Kamen, etc), a solid young PF (Bosh, Lee, Millsap) and Turk. I'm willing to give up all our cap space, RIP and some picks to make that happen.

Gordon creates those threes for himself. Turkoglu takes 3/4 of his threes wide the fuck open.

Not to mention, only a complete idiot would want to play turkoglu at the 2. Ask San Antonio and Sacramento how that experiment turned out. The Indiana Pacers CUT Turkoglu after trading for him. That's how fucking low his value was before dwight howard revived his career.

Gordon is a go-to guy. Turkoglu is a support player that needs other players to set shit up for him. There's zero comparison between the two.

The Indiana Pacers CUT Turkoglu after trading for him. That's how fucking low his value was before dwight howard revived his career.


That's not how I remember it. He went to the Spurs in that deal.

I might need to look that up.

Source #1
http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/Search/SearchResults.php?Player=turkoglu&Team=&PlayerMovementChkBx=yes&BeginYear=&BeginMonth=&BeginDay=&EndYear=&EndMonth=&EndDay=&submit=Search


Source #2
July 24, 2003
Indiana Pacers traded Brad Miller to the Sacramento Kings and Ron Mercer to the San Antonio Spurs; Sacramento Kings traded Hedo Turkoglu to the San Antonio Spurs and Scot Pollard to the Indiana Pacers; San Antonio Spurs traded Danny Ferry to the Indiana Pacers.

Hedo has been running point for the Magic often this series. He has ball skills. Yes, having Dwight helps a hella lot.

yeah but who wouldn't take the turk over tay right now? even without howard, he's simply a better player.

but that wasn't the debate was it? sorry, that was just a random thought of mine.....

Gordon creates those threes for himself. Turkoglu takes 3/4 of his threes wide the fuck open.

Gordon is a go-to guy. Turkoglu is a support player that needs other players to set shit up for him. There's zero comparison between the two.
First off, I'd play Tay at the 2. He has trouble with bigger SF's anyway. Hedo plays the 3.

Second, he's the primary creator on that team. If you think Gordon is a better creator than Hedo off the dribble you're crazy. Gordon is better at getting his own shot, but not a better facilitator than Hedo. Not even close. Gordon has 2.5 TOs for every 3.5 assists. Hedo gets 5 assists for his 2.5 TOs. Gordon's team is a +2.7 with him on the court, Turks is a +7.5.

Third, if Gordon is the go to guy, WTF is Stuckey then? He can't shoot jumpers, so WTF is he going to do on offense? Stuckey needs to be the go to guy on offense (outside the post) and put two player around him that can knock down shots (Tay and Hedo). Why put another player out there that needs the ball in his hands?

Fourth, yes Howard has revived his career, but I think it's more the offense than anything. He never averaged more than 8 shots a game before going to the Magic. He also only had one year with more than 11 starts prior to going there and that was in San Antonio (he was 4th on the team in scoring behind the big 3). He never got a chance to play in Sactown because they had Peja and Christie ahead of him and Jim Jackson on the bench. Doesn't mean he sucked. Curry started over Tay all year before we were forced to play him.

Ryan (Grand Rapids, Michigan): With Ariza and Turkoglu in the Finals, is this a preview for Pistons fans of who might be playing the three for them next year?

Langlois: I’d say Turkoglu is more likely to get away from Orlando than Ariza from LA. The Lakers probably will wind up letting Lamar Odom walk since they have both Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum up front and can’t really afford the luxury of another $10 million frontcourt player, or whatever number Odom will be looking to get. As long as the market doesn’t get crazy, and it’s not very likely to get crazy this summer, the Lakers and Ariza are likely to come to terms – maybe a mid-level deal. I do believe that Orlando getting to the Finals will increase pressure on Orlando management to retain Turkoglu, and with a new arena coming on line in 2010, management might be inclined to bite the bullet and delve into tax territory for one year while using an intact 2009 Finals team, and perhaps even a champion, to sell season tickets and get suites leased next winter.

First off, I'd play Tay at the 2. He has trouble with bigger SF's anyway. Hedo plays the 3.

Second, he's the primary creator on that team. If you think Gordon is a better creator than Hedo off the dribble you're crazy. Gordon is better at getting his own shot, but not a better facilitator than Hedo. Not even close. Gordon has 2.5 TOs for every 3.5 assists. Hedo gets 5 assists for his 2.5 TOs. Gordon's team is a +2.7 with him on the court, Turks is a +7.5.

Third, if Gordon is the go to guy, WTF is Stuckey then? He can't shoot jumpers, so WTF is he going to do on offense? Stuckey needs to be the go to guy on offense (outside the post) and put two player around him that can knock down shots (Tay and Hedo). Why put another player out there that needs the ball in his hands?

Fourth, yes Howard has revived his career, but I think it's more the offense than anything. He never averaged more than 8 shots a game before going to the Magic. He also only had one year with more than 11 starts prior to going there and that was in San Antonio (he was 4th on the team in scoring behind the big 3). He never got a chance to play in Sactown because they had Peja and Christie ahead of him and Jim Jackson on the bench. Doesn't mean he sucked. Curry started over Tay all year before we were forced to play him.

1. Tayshaun is too slow to play SG full time. He also doesn't have handles for the position.

2. Hedo being able to handle and create with the ball means shit, sicne that's what we pay stuckey for. We need a guy that can create his own shot.

3. Hedo's stats with Orlando also mean SHIT, unless you think we can replicate dwight howard. Hedo gets plenty of open looks on orlando he would NEVER get here. Take Howard off Orlando and then get back to me about his kiss-ass +/- ratio.

4. Stuckey is not a good shooter off the dribble. Gordon is one of the best. Stuckey is more than capable of playing a support #2 scorer role and letting Gordon take the big shots.

5. Yes, its more the offense than anything. WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU THINK THE OFFENSE IS BUILT AROUND? Do you think that offense remotely works without Howard?

well, considering that all my plans also involve a post player, half your arguments are out the window. I wouldn't do shit at any guard/SF position without getting our post player figured out.

So you want Stuckey to be a complimentary scorer to Gordon, who only creates shots for himself. Yet Stuckey only scores by driving to the basket (hence the ball is in his hands). How exactly is that going to work?

You want me to discount Hedo's stats in Orlando, yet you also want me to have faith in an undersized career %43 SG that hasn't gotten Chicago anywhere?

I just don't see how Stuckey is going to play off of him when he's not a good jump shooter. It seems to me if you get Gordon you want to give him the keys to the car and have good shooters around him.

Also, if he's such a good complement to a slashing PG, why would Chicago let him go? Rose is basically a better version of Stuckey.

kstat- i won't deny howard is a great player and can attract a ton of attention when he's on the floor. no doubt he can improve those around him.

but i don't agree entirely with your logic. orlando has shown over and over that even without howard on the floor, they can put up points. they still get plenty of open looks as their speed, dribble and kick, and ball movement is very good even without him on the floor.

of course they're better with him out there, but they are not a bunch of scrubs or anything close without him out there.

yeah, I don't think Manu or TP would be crap if TD retired either. post players help for sure, but Turk isn't like Kapono out there just shooting threes.

Also, if he's such a good complement to a slashing PG, why would Chicago let him go? Rose is basically a better version of Stuckey.
let him go? Since when does Chicago have a choice in the matter? He's unrestricted.

Given the choice between someone that's shown he can score with a dominant big and and someone that's shown he can score against double teams with no big help at all, I'll take Gordon.

Given the choice between someone that's shown he can score with a dominant big and and someone that's shown he can score against double teams with no big help at all, I'll take Gordon.

Hedo looked just fine tonight with his dominant big on the bench with foul trouble.

Edit: Yeah, I know his team lost. I know Hedo shot 3-13. But he's definitely able to get his own shot and score over double teams. He's a lot taller than Gordon. I'm not sold on either player, but had to point this out.

2. Hedo being able to handle and create with the ball means shit, sicne that's what we pay stuckey for. We need a guy that can create his own shot.




This is funny.

First ^ that comment is BEYOND funny. His abilty to handle and create don't mean shit because we need someone that can create? Come on, Kstat, seriousy?


Also, if he's such a good complement to a slashing PG, why would Chicago let him go? Rose is basically a better version of Stuckey.
I'd have to completely disagree here. Stuckey is a slasher with a sketchy jumper that's trying to develop into a PG and learn to distribute. He's still learning when to take over, when to defer, and when to just go with the flow.
Rose came into the league and immediately was distributing, hitting jumpers, and attacking the basket. He is everything we WANT Stuckey to be, but Stuckey is not a "poor man's Rose" by any means.

Just because they have one skill in common (slashing) doesn't mean they're the same player at all.

I've said this before, and I still like the idea of it. What about Heinrich paired with Stuckey? I know he makes more than we'd like to pay him, but it goes down every year. He can handle the ball and run the offense when he needs to. He can defend multiple positions, had to guard the 2 a lot of times because Gordon couldn't. He can play off the ball when we put it in Stuckey's hands and let him do his thing and he proved it by doing the same thing with Gordon that we'd want here.

If we want to see the ball in Stuckey's hands and give him a chance to develop as a combo guard, as Joe seemed to hint at during the end of the season presser, instead of signing Gordon we could try to get Heinrich for Amir or Max (or Kwame if he opts in). Chicago HAS to at least consider it because of the cap room it gives them.

Move Rip+Whatever for a big, trade for Heinrich, then we have our big man and our backcourt set. Joe wants to guards that can handle the ball? He's got them. He wants a post presence big and a big that can defend the rim? He's got one of those with Rip, and he can use our cap space or Tay to get the other. Then we just need to use what we have left to work on the bench.


Whether we go after Gordon, try to trade for Heinrich, or anything else we do that involves bringing in a guard, we need to make the Rip deal first. As soon as we bring in another guard, teams will know that we have to deal him and his value will drop.

I'd take Hinrich only if they took Amir and MAx so we'd still have the cap space. (we'd also have to trade RIP for sure).

I don't know if they'd take Amir AND Max for him. They might, because Amir is an expiring contract, but that leaves them with a whole lot of bench-type big men without any real starter. Max has a minimum 3yr-$15mil left and a player option for a 4th year at $5mil.

CHI has no use for Max, he's redundant with guys like TT and Noah. Kwame maybe?

I like Kirky a bit. He can shoot the 3, he can D up, he can find the open guy. I'd go so far as to say he'd work well with Stuck. Now, can we get a truely talented 4/5 for Rip and whatever? We lose a bit of scoring with our backcourt now. Even if we sign a guy like Boozer we'll need a complete center who can defend and spread the floor.

You lose Rip's midrange game, which is money, but you get a guy that can hit some 3s and find the open man. So essentially in the backcourt you're swapping a great midrange jump shot without much range (lets face it, Rip was never a big 3pt guy even after he developed that corner 3) and no ball-handling/distribution for a lesser jump shot with slightly better range and solid handling/distribution.

Plus you've got to be hoping that Stuckey continues to develop to make up for some of that scoring loss. His and Rip's games just don't really mesh very well. He isn't a great distributor and that's what Rip's game is based on.

I really hope Stuck can develop that part of his game a bit. He's not exactly the best decision maker with the ball...

Also what's missing is that Gordon is a guy you give the ball to with the game on the line. We haven't had that since Chauncey left.

Also what's missing is that Gordon is a guy you give the ball to with the game on the line. We haven't had that since Chauncey left.
I agree with needing a closer so to speak for the last couple minutes. The problem is a closer does you no good if he doesn't fit with the rest of the team the other 46 minutes. Joe thought he was getting a rental closer in AI. too bad he didn't fit in the rest of the game.

That's what I fear with Gordon. Sure, he can close out a game. But will we even be in the game when he and Stuckey's games overlap and only one can be effective at a time?

Stuckey and Gordon couldn't possibly be more different. I'm not sure how anybody that's actually seen both of them play would say they are different.

Gordon' range extends a good 25 feet. Stuckey's doesn't go past 10 feet.

The idea that only one can be effective is completely unfounded.

AI had three point range too. I'm not saying Gordon's range is a bad thing. I'm talking about who's running the offense.

AI had three point range too.
LMAO

What the fuck bizzarro AI were you watching?

Stuckey and Gordon can both initiate an offense. Obviously Stuckey should be better at it.

LMAO

What the fuck bizzarro AI were you watching?


The world that has AI shooting %35 from three point range the last few years in Denver. Not stellar, but good enough to prove the point that AI had range that Stuckey did not and it didn't help here.

The world that has AI shooting %35 from three point range the last few years in Denver.

he shot %28 with the Pistons last year. His CAREER HIGH is %34. That is not good shooting at all.

Ben Gordon's worst season shooting from the arc is still %7 better than iverson's best season.

Again, don;t compare the range of those two players. It's laughable.

Exactly, you're only proving my point. Our offense had no fucking rhythm because AI and Stuckey both needed the ball in their hands to be effective. I'm not saying Gordon is the same player as AI, but what faith do you have the two can play off each other?

AI didn't fail because he couldn't exist with Stuckey. he failed because he sucked and could no longer make open shots.

By your logic, any two guards that score can't co-exist. Nevermind that this franchise has been successfully built around two scoring guards for decades.

Ben Gordon is perfectly capable of being a catch-and-shoot player. He;s a pure shooter.

AI didn't fail because he couldn't exist with Stuckey. he failed because he sucked and could no longer make open shots.

By your logic, any two guards that score can't co-exist. Nevermind that this franchise has been successfully built around two scoring guards for decades.

Ben Gordon is perfectly capable of being a catch-and-shoot player. He;s a pure shooter.
Scoring guard is not the same as primary ball handling guard. If Gordon can play mostly off the ball and be a catch and shoot player...then it works. All I'm saying is what I've seen of him over his career...it's more like he's the PG out there and when Duhon/Hinrich were playing with him (I haven't seen any Bulls games this year with Rose besides playoffs). They feed off Gordon and hit open jumpers while he creates. Perhaps that has changed with Rose and I haven't seen it. If so please let me know.

Rose needs to dominate the ball more than stuckey and chicago made it work.

If we could get Millsapp for only 8-9 million, that would be awesome.

http://www.nj.com/nets/index.ssf/2009/06/nj_nets_workouts_workouts_ever.html


A number of you are still talking about Carlos Boozer, a development that inspires this response from the rest of us, along with some people in the organization: Huh?

We haven't talked to Rob Pelinka about this - he wouldn't talk on the record about it anyway -- but let's look at it pragmatically:

His client will make $12.6M next year if he doesn't opt out. Where else will he get that $12.6?

We assume Pelinka floated this in case he needs a Plan B if the Detroit connection doesn't happen for them. And he undoubtedly has heard what we're hearing: The Pistons are now giving as much (if not more) consideration to Paul Millsap, to the tune of $8-9M per year, which is an ample jump from the $797K he was paid last season.

And if Detroit has cooled on Boozer, he's going to have to scramble to find anything like the 5/60M he's looking for - or thinks he deserves.

Fuck Boozer - that's good news.

And while everyone tries to kill Kstat for the Gordon over Turk thing let's all remember I stated I wanted Gordon over Turk and he just agreed.

The reason? Gordon and Stuckey would compliment each other very well. You have 2 guys capable of creating offense, with one guy being a quality 3 point shooter and the other being our primary slasher.

I do believe Joe stated his desire for another ball handler and 3 point shooters...

So Gordon and not Turk? Cause, as Chris correctly states: Turk is 4 fucking years older than Gordon. He's 30! Right now he's at the peak of his powers and is doing extremely well.

How well is he gonna be doing in 3 years? Joe said he was looking to add guys that could compliment our guys for the next 3-5 years and develop along with Stuckey. Does anyone think Turkoglu is gonna develop?

Gordon's addition allows us to trade Rip and other parts for the real piece we need: Our big. With the big, Gordon and Stuckey on board I'd be pretty happy.

I saw people claim that after signing Hedo we'd trade Rip for our big - Why? Is Tay or Hedo gonna start at SG? No way do I wanna see that. If you want Hedo then you gotta trade Tay IMO.

Look, at the end of the day it becomes a pointless debate. Some people don't wanna sign a 30-year old free agent. Some will. Some people don't think Gordon could co-exist with a guy like Stuckey. Some will.

At the end of the day we all wanna get to the same goal - we're just taking different paths to get there.

If Stuckey remains the primary ball handler and decision-maker, I'm totally fine with a Gordon signing. I think Joe's "ball handler and three point shooter" comment pretty much tipped his hat that he wants Gordon, so we may as well accept that he'll be suiting up in Piston's blue and white in October.

Like P said, with Gordon here, Rip is definitely gone. I think the writing on the wall has had Rip out the door since Chauncey was traded. Rip probably doesn't want to be here but signed that extension so he'd at least get his money. He, like all of us, sees that the league is changing and that this team is changing, and he understands that he just doesn't fit in here anymore.

I believe Joe is actively shopping Rip at this point, trying to set something up with another GM (Colangelo, maybe?) to deal him once he signs Gordon.

If Milsap could be had for $9 million, Gordon for a similar price, and then Bosh traded for, Joe would win Executive of the Year hands down. They wouldn't even have to vote.

i wonder what joe could get for rip. would be nice to 'sell' him to a team with cap room (is it charlotte who has some?) and get a couple of unprotected 1st rounders in return. i don't know. i've been huffing paint this afternoon.

I'd rather deal Rip, all our picks and whatever else it took to get Bosh.

A team with Bosh, Millsap, Prince, Gordon and Stuckey would be pretty freakin' good. And reasonably young.

Fill the bench with crap for all I care.

i just don't see t-dot trading bosh now though. even for rip, prince, and picks. not that that works under the cap anyway, but i'm just saying that i've yet to see a deal for bosh that i think has a realistic chance of happening.

sure you can say "better they get something for him now than nothing later".....but i don't think that's a sufficient argument. if that's the case than you could say the cavs should trade lebron or the heat should trade wade, etc etc.

if they tank next year than the suitors will line up for bosh before the trade deadline and t-dot might be more open to a move like that. but even though they're not a top contender right now, i have to believe they're sitting on bosh and not making any moves anytime soon. for now.

JMO of course.....

I agree.

I too see them holding onto him until the deadline and trying to get expirings and young talent for him.

No point trading him now. They should at least try to recruit around him and see what they can come up with. You never know - they could stumble on someone that really makes a difference and he might be happy to stay for another 3 years.

Everyone seems to forget the shit Kevin Garnett put up with in Minnesota. Bosh seems like that kind of guy - loyal until he really has to move on.

He's still very young and has time to try and do the right thing in Toronto. If they ever do make a legit contender around him he'll be forever remembered as the guy that really built the Franchise and Vince Carter will become a footnote in their history.

Bosh has nothing to lose by staying - he'll get his money no matter where he goes.

The Cavs know they must get more athletic in the backcourt. Trevor Ariza may be available, but it's hard to imagine the Lakers allowing him to walk away -- especially if they win a title. Hedu Turkoglu could become a free agent if he opts out of the final year of his contract. Word is Detroit may have an interest if he doesn't remain with Orlando. Detroit (after taking Rasheed Wallace and Allen Iverson off the books) and Oklahoma City are expected to be two of the few teams spending big this summer.

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2009/06/terry_plutos_talkin_about_brow_8.html

I wonder how cheap we could get Hedo. He'll want more than the MLE, but only 3 teams can give him that. He's not old, but probably past what Memphis or OKC would want (they'd probably rather have Gordon who's younger and more exciting). If we could get him for 6-7 mil instead of Gordon for 10, that would save enough for a guy like Anderson maybe.

i have to believe if a guy like tayshaun can get a starting salary of around $9 mil, hedo will definitely get $10+. crazy? we'll see. i think orlando ponies up a bundle for him considering how big a role he plays for them.

no, there aren't a lot of teams with cap room to pursue him. but you can be sure he and his agent will dance with a team like us just long enough to make the magic jealous enough to pay him much more than 7-8 million per year.

JMO

LOL, just read a Mavs' fan's idea to give us Stack and Damp for Rip.

That might not be so far fetched. Stack's got a buyout that would open up more cap room.

Which is why Stack's contract has so much value right now.

I don't want us to sign Turk. He's great and all but he's also 30!

Didn't realize that about Stack, but I wouldn't want to touch Damp with a ten foot pole. I think trading Rip mainly for more cap room is pretty bold, and there would have to be other things in the mix for a trade like that to happen.

Or we'd have to have courted his replacement just prior to trading Rip.

It can be done.

You have Gordon visit and lay it out for him. He and his agent/lawyer see the contract and agree in principle (nothing signed yet per NBA rules)

When the clock strikes midnight and it's go time we deal Rip for Dampier and Stack and $3 mil in cash. 1 minute later we buyout Stack with most of the $3 mil. I minute after that we sign Gordon and whoever else we lined up.

It ALL can be done, as long as Joe does it in the right sequence and is smart with his "courting". Guys will agree to contracts during that week - they always do.

Nothing gets officially done but that doesn't mean the deal isn't 99.9% completed.

A report from Slam Magazine, a New York-based basketball publication, on Monday said the Cavs have opened negotiations with Pistons free agent center Rasheed Wallace on a two-year contract at $10 million per season. This is impossible and illegal; the Cavs do not have salary cap space to sign any player to a $10 million contract and any talks cannot begin until July 1. It is likely the Cavs will contact Wallace at that time, as he's probably going to be on their list of free agent targets. But he will not get a $10 million contract from the Cavs or likely any team in the NBA.

if we were to trade rip essentially just for cap space, we had better get a #1 in there too. even if it's 2-3 years from now. little restrictions on protection.

we NEED to stockpile #1 picks and dealing a player like him has to net you at least 1 future #1.

that's my philosophy anyway.

Pistons might court Lakers free agent Trevor Ariza

by A. Sherrod Blakely
Wednesday June 17, 2009, 11:24 PM

AUBURN HILLS -- Now that the NBA playoffs are over, there is only one team -- the Los Angeles Lakers -- feeling really good.

But in the coming months, basketball fans will see that the Lakers aren't the only playoff winners.

In just about every playoff series, there was at least one unrestricted free-agent-to-be whose play might result in a fatter-than-expected payday this summer.

The Detroit Pistons, one of the few teams with money this offseason, are expected to be in the running for most of them.

One player who will get a lot more attention based on his play in the postseason is Los Angeles Lakers forward Trevor Ariza.

The Los Angeles native said he wants to re-sign with his hometown team, but it's unclear if the Lakers will give him the raise he is seeking.


THE PLAYERS

Other unrestricted free agents whose postseason performance has boosted their stock:

Chicago's Ben Gordon

Pro: One of the game's best scorers who can score from all points on the floor.

Con: Struggles defensively; commits a lot of turnovers.

---

Denver's Chris Andersen

Pro: Excellent shot-blocker who was No. 2 in the league with 2.46 per game despite playing about 20 minutes a night.

Con: Offensive skills are limited.

---

Orlando's Hedo Turkoglu

Pro: At 6-10, he is versatile enough to play four positions.

Con: Turns the ball over a lot.

---

Denver's Dahntay Jones

Pros: Bruce Bowen-like defender not afraid to be physical against the game's top perimeter players.

Cons: Relies too heavily on athleticism to impact games.

The Lakers already have more than $70 million tied up in salaries for next season -- well above the luxury tax threshold -- and that number will take a significant jump if they are serious in their efforts to re-sign Ariza and fellow Lakers free agent Lamar Odom.

Ariza's ascension to prime free-agent target came unexpectedly.

Acquired in February from Orlando, the 6-foot-8 forward wasn't expected to make much of an impact. Known primarily as a defender, Ariza showcased an offensive game in the playoffs few knew existed.

In five seasons, Ariza never averaged more than 8.9 points per game. But during the playoffs this year, he bumped his scoring average up to 11.3 points per game.

The biggest knock on Ariza was he couldn't shoot long range with consistency, but shooting was not an issue for him during the playoffs.

A career 29.9 percent 3-point shooter, Ariza connected on 47.6 percent of his 3s in the playoffs. And his defense against the likes of Denver's Carmelo Anthony and Utah's Andrei Kirilenko only helped to reinforce his reputation.

The big concern with Ariza, as is often the case with players who have breakout performances in the playoffs, is if his strong postseason play was an aberration.

For every Chauncey Billups, whose strong play during the 2002 playoffs off Minnesota's bench made him a prized free-agent target for the Pistons, you have an Austin Croshere, who never lived up to the big-time contract he received from Indiana after a strong showing in the 2000 playoffs.

The Pistons' level of interest will intensify if they make a trade involving Tayshaun Prince that nets them an impact power forward or center.

While nothing is imminent, Prince remains one of the most likely Pistons to be traded this summer because of to his contract (two years, $21.5 million remaining), postseason experience and versatility.

What would it take to land Ariza? He made $3.1 million this season. A multiyear deal with a salary double that amount is likely.

For every Chauncey Billups, whose strong play during the 2002 playoffs off Minnesota's bench
He didn't come off the bench during that playoff series.

Yeah, wasn't Brandon hurt? I guess you could say he was a fill in player though.

Yeah, I think they want you to take it as "came off the bench to start". But they didn't say that, so dar.

2 things we haven't "debated" yet:

1) I gave the Sam Smith article a quick once over but couldn't find the name of Ben Gordon's agent. Who is he? What other clients does he work for? Is it possible we might be going with a package deal with this agent?

That kind of shit used to happen all the time back in the day. A team would sign a "star" and get a lesser free agent as well, almost like it was the cost of getting the "star" to agree to sign.

Do "package deals" they still happen? Do certain agents still have a lot of power in today's league? Is Gordon's agent smart enough to attempt this?

2) Charlie Villanueva aka Powder - not one word about this guy?

Isn't he a combo forward that can hit a 3? Isn't he a free agent for the cash strapped Milwaukee Bucks? Haven't we all seen articles claiming the Bucks are in serious danger of losing both Charlie V and Ramon Sessions?

Yet not one article, not a single word on Charlie? Is he really that bad?

I find it odd that the Pistons seem to be linked to a ton of free agents but not this dude (Sessions also hasn't been mentioned IIRC) Why?

Just looked up Gordon's agent - The Raymond Brothers.

Their clients?

Fuckheads like Zach Randolph, Jamaal Tinsley, a scrub (Sean Singletary) a guy we might be able to get via trade (Caron Butler) and another free agent we've been linked to...

Paul Millsap!

Very interesting...

I've mentioned Sessions a few times and would love to snag him.

Um, yeah - fuck you GD.

Seriously - I didn't know you were pimping Ramon. You want him to start at PG, right?

Did you think of the whole agent angle?

It used to be common practice IIRC.

No, I didn't think/care about his agent. He'll go where the $ is, no matter who represents him.

There isn't much PG discussion here, when it happens, it usually gets snuffed out right quick. I'm sure you can imagine why.

CV is best served as a 6th man imo. not really worth giving 6~7 million for a 6th man. im not really feeling the hype. sometimes he wouldnt even start over Mbah Moute or whatever...that's gotta mean smoething.

You're not feeling the hype?

What hype?

Powder (anyone get the reference or should I stop?) doesn't even rate a mention on this site. I wonder why.

And GD - if you propose that Sessions is at PG, Stuckey is at SG and Rip is dealt for a big I could support that.

But if your proposal is Sessions at PG, Rip at SG and Stuckey on the bench (or dealt) I'll call you a moron.

Right or wrong Joe hitched his wagon to Rodney Stuckey. Until Joe does something that says otherwise Stuckey is here and he's a starter.

I'm more than willing to discuss him as a SG but please forget about Bibby or Andre Miller. We don't need no funky old dudes playing PG for us. I'd rather run with Bynum and Stuckey for the next 3 years than Bibby and Stuckey.

And Glenn - I didn't mean Sessions agent. I meant the shit that used to go down where an agent would steer a couple of his clients to the same team in order to improve that team (increae his clients profile) and/or have some kind of leverage over that particular franchise.

The leverage part is a bit of a worry IF the agent brings you 2 superstar players, but if it gets us Millsap and Gordon (and we deal Rip + parts for a starting C) I wouldn't be too concerned.

And GD - if you propose that Sessions is at PG, Stuckey is at SG and Rip is dealt for a big I could support that.

But if your proposal is Sessions at PG, Rip at SG and Stuckey on the bench (or dealt) I'll call you a moron.

Right or wrong Joe hitched his wagon to Rodney Stuckey. Until Joe does something that says otherwise Stuckey is here and he's a starter.

I'm more than willing to discuss him as a SG but please forget about Bibby or Andre Miller. We don't need no funky old dudes playing PG for us. I'd rather run with Bynum and Stuckey for the next 3 years than Bibby and Stuckey.


You can play around with a lot of scenarios. I just want a PG that gets his teammates good looks and has at least 4 years left in the tank.

What are you willing to pay Sessions? $5 mil starting salary?

I can swing a plan with him.

What other PG's ya want?

I'll do a bunch if you want and guys can poke holes through 'em all (although my plans have been met with a mass case of idon'tgiveafuck flu)

I'm keen on that Charlotte deal right now. Let me get sick of that one first and I'll get back to you.

I think Sessions might be had for MLE + $500K, maybe.

The Felton/Wallace/Okafor for Tay and Rip deal?

Fuck Yeah! I'd love that.

We could even sign Boozer and I wouldn't be pissed.

But we wouldn't sign Gordon, so we'd have to sign some bench dudes that can shoot the 3, especially a back up SF.

:mccosky:


Free agency
The official salary cap won't be set until the first week of July, but with $41 million worth of salary commitments for the 2009-10 season, the Pistons expect to have no less than $17 million of available cap space to work with.

Only Memphis and Oklahoma City will have as much.

To get to the $17 million number, though, the Pistons will have to renounce free agents Rasheed Wallace and Allen Iverson. They could re-sign Wallace, but that does not appear to be the plan.

The Pistons also stand to lose Antonio McDyess to free agency. Because he was traded, bought out and re-signed last season, the Pistons do not own his Larry Bird rights. He is an unrestricted free agent.

On top of that, they are waiting to hear from center Kwame Brown, who has until June 30 to pick up a player option for $4 million next season. The Pistons expect he will exercise his option and return, but if he doesn't, they gain an additional $4 million in cap space.

Given all of those factors, the priority will be to sign a young, top-tier power forward. Carlos Boozer, 27, is expected to opt out of his contract with the Jazz. If he does, he most likely would be the Pistons' first option.

Paul Millsap, 24, a restricted free agent in Utah, would be another option.

The Jazz, most likely, won't be able to keep both and re-sign center Mehmet Okur.

The Pistons also have some hope of re-signing McDyess, though they acknowledge that he is expected to be courted by several contending teams (Boston, Cleveland, San Antonio).

The Pistons also need perimeter scoring help and it appears the primary target will be Bulls shooting guard Ben Gordon.

But there are too many unknown variables at this point to accurately define what Dumars' plan might be beyond those obvious primary targets.

Keep in mind, too, that having a lot of cap space facilitates trades as well as signing free agents. If a cash-strapped team is interested in trading off a high salary, the Pistons are one of the few teams that can accommodate it. That's how the Clippers acquired Marcus Camby from Denver last season.

It's all muddled and murky right now, but a gradual clearing will take place over the next few weeks. By the middle of July, the Pistons' new design model should be taking shape.

I really like Sessions game, but I still see Stuck's only chance at success in the NBA at learning the point position. And I think he's going to be good at it, it just seems he needs to find the medium between dominating the ball (like in college, since he has no real talent around him) and always deferring to other scorers (which I saw a lot of this past year).

He can get to the basket, I don't think anyone can argue with that. But that just means defenders will back off on him, meaning he either needs to develop a consistent jumper or learn the pick and roll as well as anyone in the league. That takes having a big man with some range though, and I can't say who that big man could be at this time. Boozer, Millsap and Lee don't jump out at me as ideal options there.

Boozer is great at the pick and roll, him and Deron Williams ran it well.

The Pistons let Valter become an UFA yesterday, he's gone to Europe it seems.

Eric (East Lansing, Mich.): I haven’t heard anyone really giving much thought to signing Charlie Villanueva to an offer sheet. What’s your impression of him and do you think he would be able to fit into Joe Dumars’ plan for the off-season?

Langlois: Eric, your question arrived just before Tuesday’s trade ripples. Milwaukee sent Richard Jefferson to San Antonio in a deal that netted them Amir Johnson from the Pistons and Bruce Bowen and Kurt Thomas from the Spurs, with San Antonio’s Fabricio Oberto coming to Detroit. Oberto will be either traded or bought out of his partially guaranteed contract, padding Detroit’s free-agent total by another $1.7 million. The deal gives Milwaukee more of a chance to retain at least one of its two restricted free agents, Villanueva and Ramon Sessions. By taking on Johnson, it seems to me that tips the scales in favor of Sessions – though the Bucks are expected to land Jonny Flynn in the draft tonight, and that could level the field. Common sense tells me that Joe Dumars and John Hammond, the Milwaukee GM who served as Joe D’s VP for the previous seven years, must have discussed the implications of the deal as far as it affects Milwaukee’s intentions regarding Villanueva. I think Villanueva is a real possibility for the Pistons if Carlos Boozer either (a) doesn’t opt out or (b) wants superstar money. Boozer at $60 million is one thing; Boozer at $90 million is another, and the fact Boozer has yet to say he’s opting out – he could have done so 24 hours after Utah’s last game in April, and must do so by Tuesday – makes me believe his agent, Rob Pelinka, hasn’t found the type of market for him he’s hoped to find. I like Villanueva – again, at the right price, which might be five years, $40 million, or just slightly north of the mid-level exception – but opinions about him are hot and cold. He’s only 24 and he’s a gifted scorer with an improving perimeter game. Some think Villanueva is more a numbers guy, but he’s young enough that it’s too early to say he won’t become a legitimate rock.


Tim (Lansing, Mich.): I’d love to get Villanueva for $6 million or $7 million a year over Boozer at twice as much. In fact, I think Villanueva is a better all-around player. But didn’t the Bucks just trade Jefferson in order to re-sign Villanueva? It seems Hammond did Joe a favor by taking Amir’s contract when he could’ve just kept Oberto’s. If Joe were to come back and steal away Villanueva, wouldn’t that be kind of shady?

Langlois: Again, when that deal was being discussed, it would be naïve to believe the reality of Villanueva coming up on restricted free agency wasn’t the background music. And if Hammond’s first priority was to retain Villanueva, then why take on the additional $1.7 million – the difference between Johnson’s salary next season and the buyout of Oberto’s final year – by making the trade for Johnson? The Bucks now have Johnson and last year’s second-round find, Luc Richard Mbah a Moute, at power forward, in addition to Kurt Thomas, acquired in the Spurs trade, and they also have the rights to Ersan Ilyasova. Seems like they have their bases covered at power forward. As for “stealing” Villanueva, Dumars and Hammond understand fully the nature of the business. Hammond understood what Joe D’s motivation was to do the deal – cap space. Again, if he was determined to keep Villanueva, why would he enable a team with the best chance to sign away his player to increase its potential to do so?

The first questions about Charlie appear after I comment on a media blackout?

That's not odd.

can't imagine any SF would be in play now with all the young guys we just added there. none are nba proven yet but at least 2 of them look like they are quite capable. so signing another in FA is overkill IMO.

I think Joe's targeting Ben Gordon and a stockpile of big men in trade and free agency.

again i'll ask the question- is elton brand a possibility?

kaman and brand are the guys i'd go for. if we could somehow trade rip and prince for those 2 (and it's well known both the clips and sixers are eager to dump these guys- especially brand, so i think it's more possible than you'd think) we'd be set.

that would be the best group we've had since the title. and we'd have a lot more room for internal growth. but even in the hypothetical longshot scenario where we get both those bigs, we're STILL one big short IMO. could we persuade dice to come back for 1 more year if we make some great moves like that...?

can't wait to see the plan unfold after july 8th.

Say no to Brand. If he had a reasonable deal maybe, but he has 4 years on it still. With that injury risk no way. I wouldn't touch him at all. He hasn't made it through a full season in 3 years.

yeah i know. that is the downside. a potentially HUGE downside. but he is- when healthy- a legit allstar big man who fits in perfectly.

it's a ton of money but i think it could be a decent gamble. as long as he's not the only guy. as in, we can't place all our hopes in him. we still need to acquire other players too.

i don't know- i hate that he's got about $60 mil and 4 years left. that's a ton of cash. but sooner or later you gotta roll the dice on a big move. he MIGHT be worth it. it's up to our scouts and trainers and dumars to figure out if its worth it.

I wouldn't do it. If he was 4 years - $40, I might consider it for a minute, but even then I'd be asking for a 1st to come with him or something along those lines. We'd be letting them off the hook big time. 13-14 million a year tied up in a guy that has trouble staying healthy does not bring you a title. Isn't that right, Houston?

Rip and AA for Brand and who?

Surely they'd part with a young player to get out of the Brand Mistake?

IF Arnie thought he could fix Brand Joe would do it. And remember when we signed Dice - many wondered about his knees. They've never been a problem in all his time in Detroit.

As for Kaman I don't know what it would take to get him. I wouldn't wanna deal Prince for him. He's gotta be the mentor for Daye.

I don't think Charlie V is a SF - he's just a forward. He obviously has some flaws in his game but he also has some serious skills and potential.

I can't wait for free agency. I think the Draft wasn't too bad. Obviously we didn't pick my man Johnson, but it appears the praise for our picks is universal.

When everyone is saying we did really well how bad can it be?

Don't mention Darko

remember, everyone gave us straight A's for Darko/Delfino.

What young player, P? Speights? Jason Smith (who just missed a season with a torn ACL)? They don't really have much to offer in terms of young talent because we're not getting Thad Young.

well, they do need to deal either thad or Igoudala eventually. It's getting pretty clear they can't play together.

Well, offer them Rip and Max for Thad and Brand, or something along those lines. Then again, Rip isn't playing with Iggy either unless Iggy moves to SF.

Well, offer them Rip and Max for Thad and Brand, or something along those lines. Then again, Rip isn't playing with Iggy either unless Iggy moves to SF.


LOL

Iggy has played SF for 2 years now...

He can't shoot consistently enough to play the 2. Neither can Thad.

I wasn't sure, I thought he was playing SG and Thad was playing SF. Everywhere I've seen has him listed as a SG.

with the exception of when Brand was playing, Thad has always been the 4, and Igoudala has been the 3.

And when Brand WAS playing, Philly was the worst shooting team in the league, because Igoudala and Thad is about the worst-shooting 2/3 combo I've ever seen.

They're both too small to play the 4, and they cant shoot well enough to play the 2. They are two slashing small forwards that can't play any other position.

trade RIP for Iggy, sign Gordon, trade Tay for Kaman+pick, sign Millsap

Kaman/Kwame
Millsap/Maxiell
Iggy/Summers/Daye
Gordon/Afflalo
Stuckey/Bynum

Why would Philly make that trade?

there's no way on earth the sixers do that deal IMO. no way.

After critisizing the post above I'm gonna toss one out may be even more... uhhh unique... yet it could work.
Rip for Brand st8 up.
I was bored one day and wondered onto the DX database measurement history
Brands standing reach is 1/2" below Kaman, Okafor & Chandler
His reach is the same as Gortat, Jefferson (also shy of 6' 10")
& Chandler.
I've been advocating standing reach over height for a few years... my hope is someday height will be considered an ancient method of determining how a player does fundamental things like rebounding and blocking shots... btw Darko has a giraffe neck and his shoulder height was about the same as Dice.
We'll save muscle twitch reflexes for later.

Obviously we don't have Brands current health info... jess sayin' Brand might be a candidate as a center if he gets a clean bill.
Salary diff between Rip and Brand is 3.2 mil first year...
Use the cap for an easier target than the elusive bigs.

i already suggested that in this very thread, as well as another actually, but i like your line of thinking. rip gets to go home to philly, they get their SG they want, and they get to dump brand's big contract they don't want.

for us we sign gordon replacing rip with a younger player with skills more in tune with the style of play needed, and we get a legit big who we desperately need while still preserving a good chunk of cap room.

after making that deal i would sign gordon as i said, and i'd make a real effort to trade prince for kaman- another guy who could be had due to their desire to dump his contract. we'd STILL have enough cap room to possibly pursue a replacement SF even if it's on a short term basis. we would be upgrading 2 critical positions- PF and C for 2 players that have run their course in detroit already.

we immediately become a MUCH improved team in the short term. and our longterm prospects look a whole hell of a lot better too. brand does make a ton but if his health is satisfactory, it's a win-win deal IMO.

Please don't bark at me for this, but you guys damn near scare the love of basketball out of me trade ideas. I heard a trade ideas very similar to these playing nba 2k9 with some friends(i'm not kidding, only difference is them trying to find a way to fit igoudala into the deal).

So forgive for rooting against every single one of these ideas(especially the philly one) so far. And before someone pulls out their "do you have a better idea" internet sucker punch card, let me say that i don't. But i shouldn't, I don't run an NBA team. Me not having a better idea doesn't vilify someone else's.

Ok i'm out of this now, enjoy the off season. :)

the funny thing is, not only do you not have your own idea but you don't even have any logical reasoning as to why you disagree with the proposed deals.

the funny thing is, not only do you not have your own idea but you don't even have any logical reasoning as to why you disagree with the proposed deals.
that's the same thing as "do you have a better idea?". You're right, i didn't explain it any further than me saying that they sounded video game-ish. Didn't to get into the why's about my opinion about your opinions of players trade value and what works out for the team. Either way come up with whatever trade ideas you think would make this team better, my opinion of them matters as much as they matter(not at all). I'll just hope dumars has something different put together.

no it's not the same as "do you have a better idea." not at all. this is a discussion board and you have nothing to add but just posted for the sake of posting. that's fine if that's what you want to do.

but it makes the conversation much more interesting if you offer insight as to why you don't like the proposals instead of just chiming in with a "i don't like it" or a "i don't think that's a realistic proposal" BS. again- i did not say to offer your own proposals, but simply wonder why you have nothing to back up why you don't like them. that seems pretty lame to me.

no it's not the same as "do you have a better idea." not at all. this is a discussion board and you have nothing to add but just posted for the sake of posting. that's fine if that's what you want to do.

but it makes the conversation much more interesting if you offer insight as to why you don't like the proposals instead of just chiming in with a "i don't like it" or a "i don't think that's a realistic proposal" BS. again- i did not say to offer your own proposals, but simply wonder why you have nothing to back up why you don't like them. that seems pretty lame to me.
I thought we settled this "drag the conversation wherever i can" issue you've been having? Yes its lame, i apologize for it's lameness. Anything else you have a problem with or are we finally done?

no we're done. you've acknowledged that you are a non-contributing poster, so now i know to ignore your posts. there's no point in discussing topics with someone whose best response is nothing.

So how many SFs do we have now?
Is this a sign of Tay being moved (or Tay being shifted to SG)?
It simply seems excessive... or someone is being moved.

I think a Rip for Brand deal is sound provided Arnie believes that Brand's injury problems can be overcome with whatever technique he used on Dice.

I have a real problem then moving Tay for anyone not named Chris Bosh. (not quite true, but close)

I don't think Joe wants to dump everyone on the roster not named Stuckey (or Bynum). And with Daye on board one could assume Prince at least has another year in the Palace to "mentor" the broomstick. So...

The Brand deal eats up $3.2 mil of our space. Assume we then sign Gordon for a starting salary of $8 mil. We now have approx $8 mil left to sign a PF or C, depending on where you wanna play Brand.

I'd be inclined to sign Charlie Villanueva at that point. What a surprise! The guy is 24 years old and has shown some potential. He also has reasonable range on his jump shot, which seems like a priority for a combo F these days.

I'd have:

C: Brand
F: Powder (fuck all y'all)
F: Prince
G: Gordon
G: Stuckey

With Kwame, Maxiell, Bynum, AA and all those perimeter draftees on the bench.

I probably need another legit big man, but surely some bum can be found that can be a space eater. If it got to the point that said missing big man was needed then the team would be fucked anyway.

If there was some way to do the deal without eating cap space then maybe the signings could happen first and we'd give Dice that $3.2 mil for 1 season.

But I don't really wanna include anyone in the Rip for Brand deal from our end as I believe Kwame, Bynum and AA have earned the right to return. (Philly ain't taking Maxiell IMO)

Brand would be shorter than Ben Wallace at C, and with his injuries, I certainly wouldn't want him doing big minutes at C.

Like I've stated above IF Arnie gives the all clear then injuries are not a worry. Dice has been a picture of health for us and I remember when we signed him we were all concerned. Maybe Arnie "fixes" Brand too?

Anyway, height has very little to do with anything IMO. Standing reach, wingspan, hops, positioning, smarts etc all can make up for a lack of height. There are a ton of examples at every position that I am too lazy to post.

But Ben is the obvious one, so is Rodman

I know, I know: those 2 were defensive specialists while Brand would not be filling that role. Well, Brand averaged 20/10 at his current height so I don't see how his height is an issue at all.

If Joe could get the approval of Arnie, then Brand is probably the cheapest option (in terms of assets) at PF. I agree size is not an issue for me. He played center in LA for a while. He doesn't have the size for Shaq or maybe Yao, but everyone else he is fine on. We'd still have Kwame for that role anyway.

I would then try to pair Lee with him. Lee is a little more athletic and we'd have two guy capable of playing either spot down low. Then sign Gordon to take over RIP's spot.

This is assuming Arnie is confident in Brand staying healthy. Prior to the last couple years he had no injury issues, so he's probably less of a risk than Boozer (unless we could get Boozer for 10 mil or less a year).

Brand is 6'8" but he will physically destroy %90 of the 7-footers in the NBA.

according to a Philly insider@ the other board Philly definitly has interest in RIP, but i am not sure they are ready to give up Brand...15,16,17,18 mil in the next 4 years, thats a lot! if we trade for Brand i hope we can get rid of Maxiells contract too...RIP+Max for Brand+Green or sth like that

I'd ask for Jason Smith and Brand for Rip and Maxiell...Smith is another high-energy big, but comes with a much cheaper price tag.

Would you rather have an overpaid Green or an overpaid Max? I don't know if swapping Max for Green is really a huge help. How much is Green making these days (since he screwed up his huge contract by hurting himself before signing)?

With max its a nice deal. That all said, 4 years and more than 25% of our cap for a guy who has been a big injury risk. That's a tough one. Are we that desperate? If Brand gets injured again or sucks coming back from injury, we are going to have a horrible contract for a long time. Its a different story with guys like Peja, Tyson, and others since the contracts blow but they are short term.

I guess in the end, I would be fine with the deal if we weren't so far away from contending. Brand would represent a HUGE feast or famine with a huge amount of risk.

I'd give the ok if Arnie did.

And Brand wouldn't necessarily be the end-all, because we'd have the cap space to surround him with other quality bigs, plus tayshaun as another trade asset.

If we could pull off a Bosh deal and pair him with brand, then sign Ben Gordon to space the floor....win-win.

I'd ask for Jason Smith and Brand for Rip and Maxiell...Smith is another high-energy big, but comes with a much cheaper price tag.
Is Smith going to be the same after his injury?

I'd love to keep this Bosh fantasy up, but I don't think its happening. Bosh isn't coming, Amare isn't coming. If we got Brand, he'd be our big man and we'd be looking for someone solid (not a star) to play with him. Unfortunately, that's just how it will be.

All of this would hinge on Arnie, as well. Brand was on his first year back from his big injury last year. Remember how long it took McDyess to recover? You've got to ease the guy back and not expect him to be the guy he was before the injury. Brand won't be the same player he was before, but can he still be a star and worth the money?

if he's not then we won't trade for him.

Wait, why are they trading Brand for Rip when they still have Thaddeus Young and Andre Iguodala? Would they seriously play Rip at SG, Iggy at SF, Thad at PF? Or does Thad come off the bench as a PF/SF backup?

I know they wouldn't mind getting rid of Brand's contract if they don't think he's getting better, but its like I said earlier, that isn't an injury where you come back 100% the next season. He'll be better this year than last, though not back to his pre-injury form by any means, and they may want to give him a chance to prove he's healthy first. I would before trading for Rip if I already had those two.

As the Pistons, I'd want to bring him in and test him out, let Arnie look at him, and then possibly make the deal. I would hope people wouldn't jump all over Brand and Joe if he didn't play at an All-Star level.

Comparing Brand last year to his last 2 years pre-injury:
Brand was shooting around 53% for the last few years befor his injury and only shot 45% last year. That's going to at least be up around 50% next season. He only shot 68% from the line, down from around 77%, which will also likely improve. His per-36-minute rebounding was actually 1 board better last year than before. His assists were down from two and a half to one and a half per 36, which would improve once he got used to new teammates I assume. Steals were about the same, blocks were down just a hair, turnovers and fouls were up just a hair (though neither are bad) and points are down about 5-6 per 36 minutes, to 15.6 from about 20. Obviously that doesn't give us any information on his defense, but if those are his numbers and they don't think his injury is going to linger, I'd most definitely take a flier.

Rip + Max for Brand + Jason Smith or Maurice Speights

I think they'd rather give up Smith, and I'd rather get Speights, but either way, you're getting Brand and a young backup big to replace Max and Amir.

Iggy is a SF, not a SG. Thad is a combo forward. They'd probably play him at PF in that senario.

BTW, Milwaukee just cut Charlie V. loose. They will NOT have his rights this summer, making him unrestricted.

I'd say this makes him a %75 chance of being a piston next season, given that Dumars is a big admirer of his.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2009-06-29-3922742968_x.htm


MILWAUKEE -- The Milwaukee Bucks have made qualifying offers to restricted free agents Ramon Sessions and Ersan Ilyasova, but will not make an offer to Charlie Villanueva.


Bucks general manager John Hammond said Monday the offers to Sessions and Ilyasova give them the right to match contract offers from other teams. Villanueva will be free to sign with any team.
NBA teams have until Tuesday to make qualifying offers to their restricted free agents.


Hammond says he did not want to elaborate on the reasons for the decisions.

there is a rumor out there he will go to Cleveland for the full MLE.

Take less money and less minutes to play in Cleveland? No way.

I disagree that he comes here.

I think Lee/Boozer/Millsap will be the targets at PF. I don't like Charlie as a full time starting PF. He needs to be in Odom's role.

If he's still out there after Joe goes after primary targets, then maybe he'll look that way. But he has Odom as that same option too so he doesn't need to jump on Charlie.

Powder would be cheaper than Odom.

I find this [Mr. Burns voice]very interesting[/Mr. Burns voice]


Hammond says he did not want to elaborate on the reasons for the decisions.

I guess he can't say that his old boss told him to let Powder walk so the Pistons could sign him for a starting salary of $6 mil...

And once again, for the people in the cheap seats:

The entire Brand/Rip trade was proposed under the condition that Arnie has checked out Brand and giving his approval.

A ton of responses say "If Arnie said yes" or "if Arnie approved" or words to that effect.

I stated in the beginning that the only way the deal ever happened was If Arnie approved.

But thanks for reading.

Charlie V is looking like a nice discount reality to me and our first acquisition.

While Ariza has maintained that he hopes to wear purple and gold again next season, agent David Lee said Monday that the Lakers won't receive any hometown discount from his client. Lee declined to reveal how much of a raise Ariza will seek when he becomes an unrestricted free agent Tuesday night at 9:01 p.m., but he said the young forward's upside should make him the most coveted wing player on the market.

Among the teams Lee expects to pursue Ariza: Detroit, Portland and Toronto, franchises with enough cap space to more than double Ariza's $3.1 million salary of last season. Lee acknowledged he doesn't have a feel for how much the Lakers are willing to offer, but expressed hope that draft-week trades made by fellow contenders San Antonio, Cleveland and Orlando will coerce General Manager Mitch Kupchak into making a competitive bid.


http://www.pe.com/sports/basketball/breakout/stories/PE_Sports_Local_S_lakers_30.3cd2531.html

My guess is Ariza wants us to bid on him so he can get a bigger deal with LA. I think Odom ends up getting away. Odom, Turk and Charlie V might all have to settle for MLE or just over.

If we sign Ariza this week, I wonder if people will still feel that Tayshaun will be back?

depends. if it's the MLE I think he could be a 6th man. What it does is allow Joe to move Tay or RIP and have someone to step in right away. It would certainly make it more likely though.

I bet that Tom Wilson is pushing Joe to sign Charlie V just so he can do "hairless night" promotions.

Get your Belle Tire red/white/blue skull cap in the concourse, only $14.99!

depends. if it's the MLE I think he could be a 6th man. What it does is allow Joe to move Tay or RIP and have someone to step in right away. It would certainly make it more likely though.
I don't see us signing him as a 6th man when we just drafted 3 SFs and we're probably bringing Washington over from Europe as a SG/SF. Ariza is only coming here if we're moving one of our wings.

rumor is tha Boozer is opting to stay in Utah.

Of course, this probably means he can be had by any team with sufficient cap space, for pretty much nothing but cheap contracts.

If I'm Joe, I offer up Kwame and Maxiell for Boozer. Worst-case, he doesn't re-sign and his $14 million comes off the books in 2010. It also allows Utah some extra wiggle room to re-sign Millsapp.

If the Jazz don't want Maxiell though, I let the guy go. Boozer isn't worth eating up too much of our 2009 cap space as a rental. I'll take a $5 million hit, but not a $10 million hit.

One way or another, I think Utah has to deal Boozer on the cheap to somebody.

yeah boozer isn't opting out. i think he's stupid, personally. first off there are a TON of good FAs hitting the market next year. a lot of teams will have cap room but it could dry up very quickly.

plus he probably won't get an increase anyway so IMO he would've been wise to get a longterm deal done NOW to get the longterm security, even if it meant a sizable paycut. we'll see- he very well could get more money next year. but a bad injury this year and he's screwed.

I would love to get Ariza and trade away Tay. Ariza is 24 and could be had for a deal starting around $6 mil. That would still leave us with a lot of cap space and allow one of the rooks to back him up. Plus we should be able to package Tay and get a big man.

rumor is tha Boozer is opting to stay in Utah.

Of course, this probably means he can be had by any team with sufficient cap space, for pretty much nothing but cheap contracts.

If I'm Joe, I offer up Kwame and Maxiell for Boozer. Worst-case, he doesn't re-sign and his $14 million comes off the books in 2010. It also allows Utah some extra wiggle room to re-sign Millsapp.

If the Jazz don't want Maxiell though, I let the guy go. Boozer isn't worth eating up too much of our 2009 cap space as a rental. I'll take a $5 million hit, but not a $10 million hit.

One way or another, I think Utah has to deal Boozer on the cheap to somebody.

The Jazz would want Oberto probably to save them tax money after keeping their FA's. They might take Max for him straight up (would save them 7 mil at least) too. I would explore that if I were Joe.

I like the idea of Oberto for Memo signed. Saves them money and they still have center depth.

The Jazz would deal him to us for a 2055 2nd round pick if they could.

Right now it's a question of how much salary is Joe D. Willing to take on for a 1-year rental.

This deal makes too much sense not to happen. Right now the only question is can Joe and Utah comes to an agreement on how much salary will be coming back to the Jazz.

I wonder if Joe is interested in Shannon Brown as that backup combo guard to add 3 point shooting. He plays good defense too. Everyone thinks Gordon, but is it a smokescreen? Maybe Joe thinks Brown is ready to bust out like Billups was.

Suppose Joe adds two all star caliber big men with the cap space (either by a trade like you just mentioned or outright signings). No space for Gordon, but Brown isn't a bad fallback either if you got two good pieces up front.

he's a terrible fallback if you're expecting him to start.

Gordon needs to be priority #1 in free agency. He's the best offensive player on the market and would allow Joe to cut rip loose via trade.

IMO, there are many more big men available for trade than there are in free agency. I can see Joe trading for two of Brand, Boozer and Kamen, while spending his free agent cash on Ben Gordon and either Charlie V. or Trevor Ariza.

There's also always the distant possibility of Amare of Bosh.

I would love to get Ariza and trade away Tay. Ariza is 24 and could be had for a deal starting around $6 mil. That would still leave us with a lot of cap space and allow one of the rooks to back him up. Plus we should be able to package Tay and get a big man.
I suspect his 3P shooting goes down to the low-30s at best next season. At that point, he's not going to be up to being a starter without some truly elite tools surrounding him, and MLE will be a waste.

At his age, it's not a stretch to say that he may have simply improved his jumper.

I wouldn't sign him for much more than the MLE, though.

Okur is staying too. Man, Utah is so fucked far as Millsapp goes.

Millsap starting salary 8.5
Gordon 9.5
best way to use 18 mil capspace?

Utah is already at 73.5 mil + 8.5 mil if they match 82, thats 12 mil over lux tax if its at 70 mil, + 12 mil actual lux tax = they would pay 94 mil for their basketball team next year? i doubt thats happens ^^

They will deal Boozer on the cheap so they can match millsapp. It's only a question of who gets Boozer.

I suspect his 3P shooting goes down to the low-30s at best next season. At that point, he's not going to be up to being a starter without some truly elite tools surrounding him, and MLE will be a waste.

I think that he may have improved more than people think. Besides his threes, he's young with good upside and a nice defender. I don't really see the bad side to getting him other then overpaying.

He's a good fit if we get Gordon to offset the fact he doesn't have many offensive skills aside from garbage man and spot-up shooter.

i love shannon brown and mentioned him in another thread when i hypothetically talked about sending prince home to LA for ariza and brown. would he want to be a 3rd PG though, and agree to sign on for that role...?

No team in the NBA is going to start him, so why not?

Over the past year, Joe Dumars lost two of his mentors, lost gambles on a rookie coach and a big trade, and even lost his franchise’s competitive momentum as the Detroit Pistons lost more games than he’d care to remember.

It was a bad year that kept getting worse, on the court and off. So as the NBA free-agency period officially begins at 12:01 a.m. ET Wednesday, perhaps no one is as eager for a new beginning as Dumars.

“It’s been a very tough year,” Dumars said Monday. “Very tough.”

The Pistons’ run of playoff success (six consecutive conference finals appearances, including two trips to the NBA Finals and the 2004 league championship) ended in a first-round sweep after Chauncey Billups(notes) was traded for Allen Iverson(notes).

The drama of A.I. and his coexistence with Richard Hamilton(notes), combined with the team’s poor competitive attitude, meant Dumars had little choice but to fire first-year coach Michael Curry, another close friend, on Tuesday.

Even worse, in a two-month period Dumars buried longtime Pistons owner Bill Davidson and former head coach Chuck Daly, two confidants and teachers who brought him to Detroit as a player and guided him to two NBA championships. When Davidson later handed him the reins to the Pistons front office, he, along with Daly, served as a constant adviser.

“Both of them had a certain humility to them,” Dumars said. “Both were down-to-earth guys; in 24 years of dealing with those men, they were generally good people, just good guys. It was always about doing what’s right, always about surrounding themselves with great people.”

So the challenge is clear for Dumars: a major overhaul of the Pistons from bench to floor, only a few days to do it and without his most trusted advisers.

Armed with more than $20 million in salary-cap space, the Pistons will be one of the most active franchises, attempting to retool their roster on the fly and return to championship contention.

To do so will take more than just bringing in good players. It will be finding the good people with whom the Pistons have long tried to surround themselves. Some big names are potentially available: Hedo Turkoglu(notes), Carlos Boozer(notes), Charlie Villanueva(notes), Ben Gordon(notes), David Lee(notes). Dumars will pursue some, but not all.

It’s about finding the necessary fit to win a championship, not just adding a stat line.

“The hardest thing is to convince people that fantasy basketball and running a team are two different things,” he said. “You can’t just write down names that look good on paper. We’ve seen in the past that’ll get you a ways, but not all the way.”

What Detroit is trying to do, rebuild in motion, is one of the most difficult things in sports. The natural flow of a sports franchise is to build to a championship level, bottom out and then build again with all new parts.

“The thing about bottoming out is you’re able to hand-pick all the pieces, kind of like when I just started here [in 2000],” Dumars said of the year he took over as president of basketball operations. “All of the guys came here and had to mesh together to make it work.

“Now there are some established guys who’ve been here and had tremendous success. Now we’re trying to fit new guys in with those guys. That’s part of the transition.”

Basketball is the ultimate team game; chemistry and complementary styles are as important as pure skill. You can’t just load a roster up with stars and expect them to coexist. So he replays conversations with Davidson.

“He’d say, ‘Here’s how I went forward with this 40 years ago, Joe. I think it still applies.’ ”

Not that Dumars didn’t know this from his playing days, when he helped win two NBA titles, or from putting together the unlikely 2004 championship team that lacked an identifiable superstar.

If he needed a fresh reminder, though, the past season was it.

Dumars decided the current Pistons had hit a wall, losing in the conference finals in each of the previous three years. So he decided to shake the core up, create cap space for this summer’s retooling and, in the process, take a shot on an X-factor for a playoff run.

He gave up Billups, the heart of the team, for Iverson and his megadeal, which would come off the books in the summer. The available money is great now. The experience of A.I. never was.

“I hoped that his desire to be in a championship situation would override everything else,” Dumars said of Iverson. “And I hoped his ability to create plays would come to the forefront.”

Neither happened. It was a disastrous marriage, with the Pistons essentially booting him off the team before the regular season was over.

Curry bumbled figuring out how to use both Iverson and Richard Hamilton, and left some hard feelings. Dumars originally thought Curry could rebound for a second season, but decided to make a clean sweep of things before free agency. Firing a longtime friend was another “tough decision to make.”

“I’d be incorrect to point to one thing that went wrong,” Dumars said of the season. “I just think the transition of losing one of our key payers in Chauncey; the transition of bringing in the player and personality of Allen Iverson; having a first-year head coach in Michael Curry; and having a first-time starter at point guard in Rodney Stuckey(notes) all contributed.

“The bottom line is we rolled the dice for one year. It didn’t pan out like we wanted. But we said [at the time], ‘If it works, that’s icing on the cake. If it doesn’t, we’re moving on anyway.’ ”

The good news is that, presumably, last season was the low tide. And as bottoming out goes, a first-round loss in the playoffs isn’t so bad.

“That’s certainly our goal,” Dumars said. “But if that’s going to be the case, then it’s important to have a major impact this summer.”

That begins at 12:01 a.m. Wednesday, the last day of a tough stretch and the first day of the rest of his career.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=ArqN1aSQU8SrL3VpnszjMkG8vLYF?slug=dw-dumarspistons063009&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

another yahoo article, Kelly Dwyer is a Flip fan
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Pistons-dump-Curry;_ylt=AmW1s6uoBHrdJ3sMdTF889K8vLYF?urn=nba,17 3830

I think that he may have improved more than people think. Besides his threes, he's young with good upside and a nice defender. I don't really see the bad side to getting him other then overpaying.
I just don't see him shooting 47% on volume 3P shooting next year like he did in the playoffs, and that's a sizable part of what's suddenly made him "over the MLE" attractive.

I just don't see him shooting 47% on volume 3P shooting next year like he did in the playoffs, and that's a sizable part of what's suddenly made him "over the MLE" attractive.

Yeah, that would even be high expectations for Jesus of Nazr-eth.

I just don't see him shooting 47% on volume 3P shooting next year like he did in the playoffs, and that's a sizable part of what's suddenly made him "over the MLE" attractive.


$.

Carlos Boozer was Detroit's first option with their cap space, but they will then now elsewhere since the power forward has elected to remain with the Jazz.

Hedo Turkoglu is now the first choice of Joe Dumars, according to a source.

If Turkoglu cannot be signed, they will pursue Ben Gordon.

A 30 year old is our #1 priority?

I hope that source is bogus.

I wouldn't worry, the Blazers are all over Hedo.

We wouldn't want him if they do, right? :^)

http://www.blazersedge.com/2009/6/30/931613/ken-berger-blazers-making-strong

Carlos Boozer was Detroit's first option with their cap space, but they will then now elsewhere since the power forward has elected to remain with the Jazz.

I don't know what that means.

I hope Portland work a sign and trade somehow for Hedo.

It's not that he's a bad player, he's just too old for what I hope we're trying to do.

And: Thanks for pointing that out Fool. I missed it. LMAO @ journos

I hope Portland work a sign and trade somehow for Hedo.

It's not that he's a bad player, he's just too old for what I hope we're trying to do.



Is Hedo too old for us if Rip/Tay are gone?

It means it's a poor source and not worth reading. We want character guys, not Boozer.

I don't want Boozer and I'd prefer going another route than Gordon.

Yes - the point of moving them is to land a big like Bosh. I don't know his exact age but he's gotta be younger than 30. I'll say 27.

So, if you're franchise player is 27 and you have these young bucks (Stuckey, AA, Daye, Summers, Jonas) all here doesn't it make sense to sign other dudes in their mid 20's and have them grow together and develop as a unit?

You'd still need some vets on board like Tay and Kwame and one could consider Bosh a vet and even Bynum (who has experienced the highs and lows of pro ball more than most) who could school the young guys on the Way of the Warrior.

IMO signing anyone 30 or over just defeats the whole purpose of trading Chauncey. If we wanted to be old then we should have kept him here.

IMO signing anyone 30 or over just defeats the whole purpose of trading Chauncey. If we wanted to be old then we should have kept him here.

But Joe really wanted to get Chauncey home to Denver...

Yeah, right.

And I really like going to bed early

IMO signing anyone 30 or over just defeats the whole purpose of trading Chauncey. If we wanted to be old then we should have kept him here.

I agree to an extent. If we're talking about signing 30+ year old point guards to big, long term money, then the trade made little sense. But to say that we shouldn't sign a 30 year old player at any other position because of Chauncey is sort of odd to me.

Well then:

Hello, Glenn. Allow me to introduce myself. I'm odd.

So you don't want to acquire anyone 30 or over?

You want an entire team of sub 30 players?

Just getting that clarified before the moves start happening, lol.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-gordonvillanueva070109&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Gordon, Villanueva meeting with Pistons


Chicago Bulls guard Ben Gordon(notes) and Milwaukee Bucks forward Charlie Villanueva(notes) flew to Detroit on Wednesday morning for a meeting with team president Joe Dumars and indications are both are moving rapidly toward deals with the Detroit Pistons, league and sources close to the two players told Yahoo! Sports.

Gordon, a restricted free agent, and Villanueva, who’s unrestricted, would be significant strikes on the first full day of NBA free agency.

Gordon and Villanueva have history together, and are good friends. They played for the University of Connecticut, although never together. The Pistons have nearly $20 million in salary-cap space and it’s believed that the offers to these two players would come close to expending that money.

The Bulls would have a chance to match a Detroit offer to Gordon, but league sources believe Chicago has its limits on how it’ll go to keep the guard, who scored 20 points a game last season. Gordon turned down a $54 million extension last summer.

we gonna suck on defense forever, but hey we get two Uconn guys who can shot the 3 a lot, right :/ ?
i know Millsap and Lee are restricted, but they are clearly better players than Villa, right? Villa can wait, i dont want him, i want Miillllsap damnit!

Told all y'all to expect Powder.

The media blackout was on.

And he'll come cheap.

Even with Gordon and Powder we should still have money left.

Plus Rip's trade must be in the works.

Hopefully this allows us to trade even more of our useless "bigs".

Gordon starting at 9 mil, Villa maybe at 6 mil, so 3-4 mil capspace left, yeah great only if its helps in a RIP deal to bring in a fucking allstar bigman..other than that it would just suck...still i don't like Villa, if he wants more money than the MLE, he has to wait for the Pistons, why not try Millsap/Lee first :( ?

Cause you spend that money on Dice for 1 year, trade Rip for Kaman and then next off-season you go for Bosh.

Or you sign Dice, then deal Prince and Rip + 3 future first rounders for Bosh and parts now.

Bosh/Kwame
Dice/Powder/Maxiell/Humphries
Summers/Daye/Jonas
Gordon/AA/Washington
Stuckey/Bynum/Banks

There's 15 dudes.

Surely with our sudden depth at SF we can handle not having some "great" starter at that spot?

lmao Bosh has played with Villa in a frontcourt before, they sucked, because both are perimerter PFs, also i don't think one of our rookies will make the rotation...i dont believe it until i see some of these guys play actually...
Rip for Kaman has to be a 3 way deal, Clipps don't need RIP...

Dude, I'm just tossing shit to the wall.

I've thrown out a ton of ideas this off-season and could be wrong on them all.

Gordon starting at 9 mil, Villa maybe at 6 mil, so 3-4 mil capspace left, yeah great only if its helps in a RIP deal to bring in a fucking allstar bigman..other than that it would just suck...still i don't like Villa, if he wants more money than the MLE, he has to wait for the Pistons, why not try Millsap/Lee first :( ?

What did Gordon turn down last year from Chicago? Does anybody remember?

I thought Paxson offered him an extension (that he turned down) before he accepted the qualifying offer, but I'm drawing a blank as to what the figure was.

I think Gordon can be had for that 11 mil per figure, then you can get Charlie for about 7 per year. Oh and Pharoah, I know you mean the powder thing in no harm, but cool it a bit, there are a lot of kids suffering from that disease and Charlie does a lot of charity work for it.

Wil, I think it was something in the ballpark of 5 years and 54, but someone can correct me if they want to look it up. Those numbers were what came to mind immediately.

it was rumored to be 6y/54 mil thats 9 mil per year, a 5y/55, 11 mil per year should do it...9/10/11/12/13

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-gordonvillanueva070109&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Gordon, Villanueva meeting with Pistons


we gonna suck on defense forever, but hey we get two Uconn guys who can shot the 3 a lot, right :/ ?
i know Millsap and Lee are restricted, but they are clearly better players than Villa, right? Villa can wait, i dont want him, i want Miillllsap damnit!


You're never going to get Millsapp. Utah will deal Boozer ASAP and re-sign him.

wtf Utah will deal Boozer to whom? Memphis is the only possiblity without the Jazz taking back the same money Boozer would earn...

Exactly, if Oklahoma City offers 8 mil a year for Millsap, I don't think Utah will pay 16 million for a bench player.

We need to trade Max and Sharpe for Boozer. That would give us another big expiring next offseason plus we could see how Boozer fits. I'm sure that Utah is desperate to unlaod him now.

wtf Utah will deal Boozer to whom? Memphis is the only possiblity without the Jazz taking back the same money Boozer would earn...
Memphis and Sacramento are both strong possibilities.

We need to trade Max and Sharpe for Boozer. That would give us another big expiring next offseason plus we could see how Boozer fits. I'm sure that Utah is desperate to unlaod him now.


Can't it would eat up too much cap space.

Kwame and Maxiell for Boozer would be the only deal that would allow us to sign more free agents, but I'm not sure Utah does that.

Couldn't we sign Gordon, then make that deal for Boozer and still be slightly under the cap?

There are more than just 3 teams with cap space. However, all but those 3 (OKC, DET, MEM) have less than 10 mil to spend. They could take on some salary though in a Boozer trade.


Given current projections, seven teams -- the Detroit Pistons, Memphis Grizzlies, Oklahoma City Thunder, Portland Trail Blazers, Sacramento Kings, Atlanta Hawks and Toronto Raptors -- could have significant money to spend in 2009.
However, it's not as much as they had hoped. At the beginning of the season, teams were projecting a $62 million salary cap in the summer of 2009.
Now, given the economy, league sources suggest that the cap will likely come in right around this season's $58.6 million cap number. For the purposes of this projection, we're going with a $58.7 million cap.
Furthermore, of the teams mentioned, only three -- the Pistons, Grizzlies and Thunder -- are likely to have significant money to make a play for free agents. The other teams would have to waive key free agents to get far enough under the cap.
The Pistons seem to be in the best place to land a big-time free agent. They could be around $18.5 million under the cap if they let Allen Iverson and Rasheed Wallace walk. If Kwame Brown decides not to pick up his player option (which is highly unlikely), they would be around $22 million under.
The Grizzlies could push themselves somewhere between $13 million and $14 million below the cap, depending on whether they rescind their qualifying offer for Juan Carlos Navarro.
Given a projected $58.7 million cap, the Thunder could have roughly $13-14 million in cap space this summer, depending on what they do with Chucky Atkins.
The Kings will be $7.5 million under the cap, assuming they renounce Rashad McCants.
Those are the easy scenarios. There are a few more complicated ones that could result in cap space.
The Blazers were looking at massive cap room before Darius Miles' comeback. Now that Miles is back in the NBA, his $9 million salary comes back on the Blazers' books. The Blazers won't have significant cap space until they renounce the rights to restricted free agent Channing Frye, who has a fairly significant cap hold. If they waive Frye, they should be $8.7 million under the cap.
The Hawks could get roughly $14 million under, but it would require their letting go of Marvin Williams, Mike Bibby and the rights to Josh Childress. More likely, they'll re-sign at least Williams and Zaza Pachulia, and won't have significant cap room.
The Raptors could be around $9 million under if they let Shawn Marion, Anthony Parker and Joey Graham all walk. That's a possibility. However, Bryan Colangelo has been saying he'd like to re-sign Marion. If the two come to an agreement, the Raptors' cap room is essentially gone.


Doubt Hawks or Raptors make those cuts. But Sactown and the Blazers have some space to take on salary in a trade. They'd just have to send 4-5 mil back to Utah in salary for a Boozer trade.

Can't it would eat up too much cap space.

Kwame and Maxiell for Boozer would be the only deal that would allow us to sign more free agents, but I'm not sure Utah does that.

That would still leave us around 10 Mil. We might not get Gordon but a lot of other FAs could be had for less then that. Ariza (if we move Tay) or Gortat or maybe even Hedo.

I would think we'd want to keep Kwame. If we traded Kwame and Max for Boozer and signed Gordon we'd have no true center on the team and no backup PF. Unless Dice came back for a year we'd have Boozer and that's it.

We'd be able to sign one more big I guess, but have no backups. We'd have to move RIP or Tay for another big.

That would still leave us around 10 Mil. We might not get Gordon but a lot of other FAs could be had for less then that. Ariza (if we move Tay) or Gortat or maybe even Hedo.
I think the goal is to get high scoring younger players like Gordon and V, and use remaining assets to acquire veteran bigs, ie Brand, Kamen, Camby, Boozer, etc.

Do you think we could get Camby and Thornton for Tay?

If so, we could do your Kwame/Max for Boozer move also.

That would be a net loss of 3 mil, taking us to 15.5 in cap space.

Then move Oberto for a signed Lee (gives NY an expiring stop gap).

That is a net loss of 6 mil, taking us to 9.5 mil in cap space.

Sign Hedo.

You'd probably have to do the Camby deal after Lee but before Hedo.

9 Man rotation:
PG Stuckey/Bynum
SG RIP/AA/Hedo
SF Hedo/Thornton
PF Boozer/Lee/Thorton
C Lee/Camby

Camby comes off the books with Boozer, sign Bosh and a backup big. Or you have the option of keeping Boozer if he works out and Bosh is not interested.

I'm positive we could get Camby and Thornton for Tay.

Much rather deal him straight up for Kamen, though. Quality legit centers do not hit the market very often.

Kaman keeps you from Bosh next year though.

If you did that then Lee doesn't come and you sign a guy like Charlie V for a little cheaper to be your 6th man. The few million you save (plus Boozer's salary) might give you enough to get Bosh still.

That gives you:

PG Stuckey/Bynum
SG RIP/AA
SF Hedo/Charlie V
PF Boozer/Charlie V
C Kaman/Oberto

I think we'd have room to sign Bosh still with Boozer/Oberto off the books. I like that lineup. You have good rebounding, 3 point shooting from Hedo, multiple ball handlers, two post players and a great 6th man.

I don't want to make any move predicated on some convoluted idea that we're going to compete in the summer of 2010, when EVERYBODY is going to have cap space.

And bleh on Lee. We can deal rip for better power forwards.

I think first priority is finding a guy that can start at center for the long haul. Kamen fits the bill.

Oberto was released yesterday, FWIW.

Oberto was released yesterday, FWIW.
That seems pointless unless he needed that right away to sign guys. Anyway, if that is the case I might include a smaller filler and keep Kwame as a backup. We'd still have enough space I think.

pointless? He got an extra 1.8 million under the cap.

I'd be a lot more comfortble if Joe made a trade for a center b4 bringing in CV & Gordon... I understand that there is a timing issue to maximize the cap room.

There's no way Joe is pursuing these deals WITHOUT having a trade lined up for a center. There's so little depth in the frontcourt, and he's not going after any real bigs in free agency.