They offered a second round pick for Randolph because they'd be taking on a horrible contract in return.

Not the case at all with Sheed.

They'd have to give up a significant piece, relatively speaking.


...which they won't do.

The most the offered for Randolph was a 2nd round pick.The Clippers are looking for bargains, they realize they have nothing of value to deal right now.
Expanding on what Glenn said...Sheed doesn't have 48 mil over 3 seasons left on his deal. Sheed would still give them max money next year if they choose to use it. In fact, they could keep Sheed and sign another big name if we took TT or Mobely's contract.

Would they rather have Zach and Kamen or Max, Sheed and Marion, or Boozer?

Another way of looking at it is acquiring Sheed (or Marion) allows them to defer their cap room for next year's free agent class.

id do sheed and max for kaman and tt
Or Kamen and Mobley. I'd probably do either of those in a heartbeat.

What about Thornton and Mobley or TT? Would anyone want to do that? I'm not sure just how good he is. He put up something like 12 and 4 last year, but was he playing SF or a mix of SF/PF? I don't think I'd want to do that one, we'd still have to go find a C, but I'm always interested in hearing what you guys think.

getting thornton almosmt means getting rid of amir. hes a good scorer, but he's probably reached his peak. i doubt he gets any better. by that i doubt he can add another level to his game. hes young, and could use the experience, but im sure he will be a 15 ppg type of player his career. right now, id try to snag him off the clips, but not at the cost of any starters.

kaman+ anyone for sheed +max is good for me.

They aren't going to trade Kamen or Thornton for Sheed and Maxiell. No fucking way.

yea. we would need to atleast throw in amir plus tay maybe? and that def is not worth it.

Yeah, it'd be sheed and amir at the very least for thornton, and Kaman most likely is untouchable.

Report: Tracy McGrady interested in Pistons

The Pistons say they're not interested in trading for Tracy McGrady. But McGrady told ESPN he would be interested in joining the Pistons.

ESPN's Stephen A. Smith reported on ESPN late Tuesday night that he spoke with McGrady and that McGrady wouldn't mind a trade to Detroit.

Said Smith: "It's certainly not a done deal by any stretch of the imagination. It's not as if Houston and Detroit has even talked yet. But is Detroit interested? Definitely.

"Is Tracy McGrady interested? Yes he is. I spoke to Tracy McGrady earlier. His basic thing is he's very happy in Houston but he wants to win. So whatever is a winning situation for him is something he is more than willing to entertain."

Smith said McGrady "has all the faith in the world" in Pistons president of basketball operations Joe Dumars, but "if nothing happens he's not going to sneeze at remaining in Houston with Yao Ming either."

A team source told the Free Press this week that the Pistons are not “remotely” close to a deal for Houston Rockets superstar Tracy McGrady.

Metronews.ca, which is based in Toronto, said in an Internet report — but cited no sources — that the Pistons are "making a big push for McGrady."

The Pistons source downplayed the report, saying the Rockets are just one of many teams to whom the club has spoken about potential trades.

McGrady, a 6-foot-8 forward with 11 seasons under his belt, spent his first three seasons in Toronto. He averaged 21.6 points, 5.1 rebounds and 5.9 assists last season for Houston.


Given that Screamin' A is involved now, and the fact that both sides are hotly denying that anything is imminent, T-Mac will probably be a Piston by August.

i hope so. i think we could use that kind of shakeup and he is a top 5 scorer when healthy, which i think we could see happen with our training staff.

i'd prefer a rip and sheed deal for him and i think houston would too. prince is too much like battier and billups gives them yet another PG.

mcgrady would still have a good enough supporting cast that he could be a huge difference maker for us.

Rip is the best possible sidekick for TMac. He should be the last starter Joe should be letting go.

Rip is the best possible sidekick for TMac. He should be the last starter Joe should be letting go.

Tay would be a good complement defensively though. I also doubt Houston wants a SG/SF tandom of Battier and Prince.

Tay would be a good complement defensively though. I also doubt Houston wants a SG/SF tandom of Battier and Prince.
Fine, but I don't really care what's best for them.

And TMac is a better defender than he gets credit for. I'm sure he'd much rather have a pure shooter like Rip flanking him rather than Prince or Battier.

The less TMac has to create during the season, the better he'll be in the playoffs.

Tmac is a good defender, I wasn't saying he wasn't. Prince allows them to take turns guarding scorers and saves both of them from breaking down.

Houston would probably have to send Battier somewhere for a shooter (very achievable).

i hope so. i think we could use that kind of shakeup and he is a top 5 scorer when healthy, which i think we could see happen with our training staff.

i'd prefer a rip and sheed deal for him and i think houston would too. prince is too much like battier and billups gives them yet another PG.

mcgrady would still have a good enough supporting cast that he could be a huge difference maker for us.

we needa get scola or a post player back..we would be way too thin

any deal with houston would certainly involve scola.

yeah sorry- i think someone mentioned a while back, about rip and sheed for t-mac and scola. that makes a lot more sense IMO and is something i'd be very happy with.

as for the thought that rip is the perfect sidekick for t-mac.....he could be very good, sure. but for what i imagine i think billups would be even better. he is a guy who you can kick the ball to and he can drain long J's in that role very well.

Having more range does not make hima better sidekick.

Billups is a very good shooter from distance, but his mid range game isnt in the same stratosphere as rip.

If having great range was all it took to play alongside T-Mac, then Luther Head would be perfect.

Rip can hit shots from any spot on the floor. That's what makes him a better safety valve.

Reason being, Rip has a much wider area where he needs to be covered.

Rip can hit shots from any spot on the floor. That's what makes him a better safety valve.

Except the top of the arc.

He's actually hit that shot this year.

Today's Hoopsworld garbage is tomorrow's hot rumor. Check the Freep for more on this on Friday.

This is written by the same guy that wrote the TMac stuff.


Pistons Looking for a Splash

By: Bill Ingram Last Updated: 7/16/08 10:19 PM ET | 7073 times read

The Detroit Pistons aren't just blowing smoke when they feed media outlet after media outlet rumors that they're after big name players. The Carmelo Anthony rumors were very real, as were the Tracy McGrady rumors, it's just that they couldn't convince the Denver Nuggets or the Houston Rockets that they should get something done.

Don't give up on Dumars yet.

Now that the Clippers have their deal complete with the Denver Nuggets, acquiring Marcus Camby for . . .well . . .basically nothing (OK, it was a possible second round pick), the Pistons are trying to get something done with one of the two remaining players who they might have a legitimate shot at landing.

The Chicago Bulls would ideally love to keep Luol Deng, but with negotiations going the way they're going it's likely the Pistons get serious in talks with Chicago. Tayshaun Prince would come back in trade and he's a veteran who could make life easier for new head coach Vinny Del Negro. Prince isn't exactly a vocal leader, but he knows how to win and he's all business.

The other name you should expect to see bantered about by Dumars and Company is Andre Iguodala. Again, now that the Clippers are out of the picture it's likely he returns to Philly. The Sixers were waiting to see if someone else would establish Iggy's value - much as the Hawks have been doing with Josh Childress and Josh Smith, but so far no teams have been willing to play the role of pawn in what would ultimately be fruitless enterprise.

The bottom line is Dumars isn't just using trade rumors to get his players tuned in and focused - he is very serious about making a "splashy" move, and won't rest until he's done so.

Pistons' Dumars is on the case

Terry Foster / The Detroit News

Pistons president Joe Dumars is annoyed by all the talk that he isn't doing anything to improve the Pistons. His problem is people are not privy to all the early-morning and late-night phone calls he has had with about a dozen NBA general managers.

"Here is what I can tell you," Dumars said in a measured tone. "I am continuing to do everything I can to improve this team."

He believes there is a 50-50 chance something will happen before training camp. Dumars is not allowed to talk about players on other teams. But he reconfirmed that all players on his team are up for grabs, but he refuses to give them away in a fire sale.

:sacred cow:

That is why the rumors that the Pistons would send guard Chauncey Billups to Golden State for center Andris Biedrins are so far-fetched. The Warriors play a running style and Billups is a power point guard who excels in half-court situations and cannot keep up in up-tempo situations.

The other factor is Dumars puts high value in point guards and apparently wouldn't consider trading him straight up for Biedrins, a 6-foot-11 center. He started 59 of 76 games and averaged 10.5 points and 9.8 rebounds.

There also have been reports that Rockets guard Tracy McGrady is interested in coming to the Pistons. Dumars said he could not comment on the report but is flattered McGrady is interested in the Pistons. ESPN's Stephen A. Smith said he spoke to McGrady and said he would not mind coming to Detroit and that he has faith in Dumars as a leader.

McGrady, a 6-8 forward, is an 11-year veteran and averaged 21.6 points, 5.1 rebounds and 5.9 assists last season. Dumars maintains he wants to bring in a top-notch player and believes some of the trade offers he has received would make the Pistons worse.

Today's Hoopsworld garbage is tomorrow's hot rumor. Check the Freep for more on this on Friday.


Actually, Saturday or Sunday is a better bet.

Prince on the Pistons and possible roster moves by General Manager Joe Dumars: "I know he's looking at several opportunities to see what's out there. But ... this is a team where I've been there six years and I've been to the Eastern Conference finals or better every year of my career. A lot of people don't get the opportunity to say that.

"A lot of people don't get the opportunity to experience winning an NBA championship, getting to the finals. Those type of things don't come without hard work. I thought my whole team did a good job of that throughout my career there. Like I said, I think we should stand pat because the coach that we have (Michael Curry), he's a very experienced guy even though this is his first year of coaching. He's a very experienced guy. He's been with us. He's played with us -- our core group of guys -- and I think it would help out tremendously by having him as our coach, knowing what to expect from him. He knows what to expect from us."

Poignant.

Get on that grammar forum, Glenn.

Get on that grammar forum, Glenn.

Uh oh, whadidido?

So Prince was basically saying they lost because Flip was clueless?

he's saying whatever he has to to avoid being traded.

That article is more fight than he put up the entire celtics series.

i'd be fine with 1 title, 2 finals appearances and 6 straight ECF......if that was all we were capable of.

in reality, we should have 3 titles and not 1. and perhaps as many as 5 finals appearances.

as crazy as it sounds, we have underachieved, overall. so THAT is why something needs to be changed. it's funny how so many people don't get that. we've had a team good enough to achieve what i mentioned above. and one that SHOULD have achieved that.

but for various reasons, we didn't. part of that reason IMO is that we are too comfortable and complacent. THAT is why joe is looking to shake things up.

i'd be fine with 1 title, 2 finals appearances and 6 straight ECF......if that was all we were capable of.

in reality, we should have 3 titles and not 1. and perhaps as many as 5 finals appearances.

as crazy as it sounds, we have underachieved, overall. so THAT is why something needs to be changed. it's funny how so many people don't get that. we've had a team good enough to achieve what i mentioned above. and one that SHOULD have achieved that.

but for various reasons, we didn't. part of that reason IMO is that we are too comfortable and complacent. THAT is why joe is looking to shake things up.


So what we need to do is have less talent, so that when we get bounced out in the ECF, it is the expectation.

As Marty said, the bar is high.

So what we need to do is have less talent, so that when we get bounced out in the ECF, it is the expectation.
Yessir!!! welcome to Piston fan nation!!!



But he reconfirmed that all players on his team are up for grabs, but he refuses to give them away in a fire sale.
I totally agree with Joe on this, getting better as he sees us to be is the only option for him to keep his idea of atleast being relevant in order.

fire sales or for rebuilding, this isd not what this is, no matter how many beg for it.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/jko/lowres/jkon259l.jpg

LOL- no, we need guys who play to their potential and who show up when it matters. not guys who come out flat, big game after big game simply because of the 'we can win when we need to' attitude.

we need guys who don't repeatedly lay eggs in huge home playoff games and who capitalize on opportunities.

LOL- no, we need guys who play to their potential and who show up when it matters. not guys who come out flat, big game after big game simply because of the 'we can win when we need to' attitude.

we need guys who don't repeatedly lay eggs in huge home playoff games and who capitalize on opportunities.

Perhaps we should trade for... (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51onBZeb-%2BL.jpg)

Haven't heard any Tim Duncan or Kobe trade rumors. Spurs and Pistons are the only teams I can think of with playoff heroes. Thinking HW's criteria mean we don't want Tmac, Melo, Biedrins, Dirk, or anyone else who may be made available. Teams seem to hold onto guys who overachieve every year.

Uh oh, whadidido?

Well, nothing really, poignant is just a nice word.

Well, nothing really, poignant is just a nice word.

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/4259/bukdowianvd7.jpg

As Marty said, the bar is high.
Yes, but is it even higher?

LOL- no, we need guys who play to their potential and who show up when it matters. not guys who come out flat, big game after big game simply because of the 'we can win when we need to' attitude.

we need guys who don't repeatedly lay eggs in huge home playoff games and who capitalize on opportunities.
Well easier said than done and it's not like melo/T-mac have been racking up big playoff wins or playing for shitty teams for the most part. Again your request may be more about the culture around the team since alot of these same guys didn't lay eggs like this 3 years ago. Either way i think Joe D is right in wanting some damn fine return in exchange for All Stars as recent as this past season and a team captain that isn't bottom feed himself.

Dumars waits for right deal for Pistons

By Rob Parker

Admit it. By now, you thought the Pistons would have had one, maybe even two, news conferences, announcing major trades and the addition of new players to shake up the still-winning-but-stale Pistons.

Especially with all the buzz that was floating around the NBA after president Joe Dumars stated with authority that he was ready to make moves and that just about everybody was available.

That's why the Carmelo Anthony rumors were out there instantly. Then there was the Baron Davis trade talk coming from the West Coast. Just recently came word that Tracy McGrady was interested in moving to Motown.

None of those deals happened.

Instead, as the offseason continues to melt away, many are now wondering if anything will happen, especially when you talk about a blockbuster deal.

But if you knew Dumars, really knew him, this shouldn't come as a surprise. Dumars isn't about making just any trade. He doesn't want a deal that simply changes faces.

If Dumars, in fact, can't get a deal that he believes changes his team for the better, he'll stand pat. Believe it. That's why he's one of the best general managers. Not just in the NBA, but pro sports.

"I understand that it's not always easy to make a move and a lot of moving parts have to come together," Dumars said on Thursday. "You always have to have patience when you have the task of running a team."

Cautious hand
The last thing Dumars, in his eighth season at the helm, wants to do is make a trade that he'll later regret.

Dumars, of course, wouldn't talk about potential deals and talks that he has had with other general managers around the league.

You still get the sense that if Dumars is going to shake up the makeup of this veteran squad, it has to start with breaking up the All-Star guards.

Chauncey Billups or Richard Hamilton will have to be sent packing if Rodney Stuckey is to be inserted into the starting lineup.

The word in trade circles is that while the Pistons would probably be more apt to part with Billups, the inquiries are mostly coming in for the younger, cheaper Hamilton. It makes sense.

Difficult process
It's easier said than done. Just ask Dumars.

"This is not fantasy basketball, where you just wake up and make a blockbuster deal," said Dumars, whose biggest deal came at the trade deadline in 2004 when he acquired Rasheed Wallace from the Hawks.

"We have a good team."

Rob Parker must be taking lessons from McCosky about "how to say something without saying anything at all".

Rumored Josh Smith to Detroit Pistons trade hits the airwaves
Posted by Dave Dial
July 21, 2008 09:48AM

There has been a lot of speculation on the internet, from various websites that cover the NBA, about a possible sign and trade of Josh Smith to the Detroit Pistons, one reason being that Smith does not want to play for the Atlanta Hawks and wants to be traded. The local media, especially Detroit's sports radio personalities, are talking about rumors of the Smith trade they are hearing from their sources. The national media, Stephan A. Smith, is telling his audience of a possible trade that would bring Tracy McGrady to the Pistons (http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3497322&categoryId=2459788&n8pe6c=1).

Drew Sharp told listeners of 97.1 last week of a trade and a signing that he has heard rumors about. The sign and trade would go like this, Detroit sends Tayshaun Prince and Amir Johnson to the Atlanta Hawks for Josh Smith. Sharp also told listeners that if the Lakers did not match the offer Golden State gave to Ronny Turiaf, the Pistons might be able to sign Andris Biedrins for the Mid-Level Exception. The Lakers have since declined to match the offer for Turiaf (http://detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080719/SPORTS0102/807190397/1127).

There have been other members of the media to write about the Pistons' interest in Smith, so it's a good bet that there is something there. But the scenario that Mr. Sharp gave would be impossible to happen. It does not work within the NBA's collective bargaining agreement.

There is a complication in any sign and trade with Smith because he immediately becomes a Base Year Compensation, or BYC, player. From the NBA Salary Cap FAQ (http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#76):



One complication with sign-and-trade deals is that the signed player can immediately become a BYC player (see question number 73 for more information on BYC), so the player's BYC value must be used when determining whether the trade is allowed.With question number 73 explaining what the BYC value actually means (http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#73):

Base year compensation (BYC) prevents another salary cap loophole. Without BYC, a team over the salary cap that wants to trade a player, but can't because of the Traded Player exception (which says teams can't take back more than 125% of the salary they trade away), could just sign the player to a new contract that fits within the desired range, then do the trade. BYC says "if you re-sign a player and give him a big raise, then for a period of time his trade value will be lower than his actual salary."
BYC defines the salary that's used to compare players for compliance under the Traded Player exception (see question number 68 for more information about the Traded Player exception). Usually the salary used for comparison is the player's actual salary. But under either of the following circumstances, a different salary is used when comparing salaries for trading purposes:

* The team is over the salary cap, used the Larry Bird or Early Bird exception to re-sign the player, and the player received a raise greater than 20% (unless it's the minimum salary).
* The team is over the salary cap, it extended the player's rookie scale contract, and the player received a raise greater than 20%.
If either of the above apply, then the player is considered a base year player. A player remains a base year player for six months, or until June 30, whichever comes later. When trading a base year player, the salary used for comparison is the player's previous salary, or 50% of the first-year salary in his new contract, whichever is greater.

The rumor that Mr. Sharp told us about had Josh Smith starting at a salary of 12 million dollars. Under the rules of the CBA, Smith becomes a BYC player immediately and his contract in any sign and trade becomes worth half of that(6 million, because that is half of his first years salary and a higher figure than his salary last season).
Which means that since Atlanta is over the salary cap (http://www.storytellerscontracts.info/resources/08-09salaries.htm), they can only take back salaries that are with 25% plus $100,000 of 6 million dollars. While the Pistons also being over the cap would have to send out contracts that equaled at least 8.9 million dollars. Tayshaun Prince is making 9.5 million and Amir Johnson is making 3.6 million, totaling over 13.1 million dollars. There is no way for that trade to work without including a third team, other exceptions, or other players.

Add that to the thought of Golden State not matching an offer of the Mid-Level for Biedrins, and you have to get the impression that Sharp got his information from a bad source. It is hard to imagine the Warriors not matching any offer Biedrins receives. Of course his source could have told him only the principles in what would be a trade and not the details. Rob Parker has also mentioned the possibility of a sign and trade with Atlanta involving Josh Smith. Where there is smoke, there is usually fire.

</H3>

So the Smith senario is possible, he just counts as 6 mil and we need to add a lot more filler on their end. Probably possible with Speedy Claxton in there. Or possibly with Childress and Pachulia in there.

So we could do:

Tay/Amir for Smith/Claxton
Tay/Amir/Max for Smith/Childress/Pachulia

Picks could be involved to balence things out if need be.

my thing is, as much as i like smith that move leaves us with NOBODY to play SF really. yeah we can put smith there but he's not really a SF in the pure sense. and we're giving up a really nice young prospect in amir.

amir is just a role player but i love his work ethic and think he can be a difference maker as an energy guy off the bench. i'd prefer not to trade him before he has at least one year in a defined role. (i imagine him getting a regular 10-12 minutes a night this season coming up, and he could be really good in those short spurts IMO)

but obviously we've got to give up something for smith so....

Well, the 2nd deal would give us a SF. Dyess could shift back to 6th man off the bench (I've always thought he fit better with Stuckey anyway on offense):

PG Billups/Stuckey/Bynum
SG RIP/Stuckey/AA
SF Childress/AA/Sharpe
PF Smith/Dyess/Pachulia
C Sheed/Dyess/Samb

That's without using the MLE or any other FA signings. We could still fill out the roster nicely.

The only trick is I think we'd need to be more aggressive moving RIP if we brought in Smith because I think the salaries would get too tight.

:langlois:


Joe D coolly plays the waiting game

I was on my way to Red Wings training camp in early September 2002 when I got a panicked call from my newspaper editor at the time. Joe Dumars had just traded Jerry Stackhouse to Washington for Rip Hamilton.

It was almost that late in the NBA’s off-season a year ago when Dumars added depth to the one spot on his roster that looked a little thin, plucking Jarvis Hayes in free agency to back up Tayshaun Prince.

Pistons fans are growing restless – at least the scores of them moved to comment via Pistons Mailbag – at the lack of activity so far this off-season, especially in light of Joe D’s comments on the day he rendered Flip Saunders’ firing the day’s second-biggest story by boldly declaring everyone on the roster could be had for the right return.

WTF TRANSLATOR:
:no sacred cows:

Lost in the noise of that 21-gun salute was the acknowledgment by Dumars that nothing was very likely to happen soon. The draft was imminent and then free agency’s first wave would effectively serve to paralyze the marketplace until the big dominoes fell.

Most, but not all of them, have now fallen. Baron Davis landed with the Clippers. Elton Brand went to Philadelphia. The Warriors, unexpectedly handed cap space by Davis’ decision to opt out and bolt, spent their money on Corey Maggette and Ronny Turiaf. The last team with enough cap space to make a bold strike, Memphis, has all but admitted it’s saving its money for another day.

So that leaves a laundry list of restricted free agents – Andre Igoudala, Luol Deng, Ben Gordon, Emeka Okafor, Josh Smith, Josh Childress, et al – hoping somebody steps forward with a multiyear deal that prompts their current franchise to enter into a sign-and-trade agreement. Most will go wanting, some then deciding to sign a one-year qualifying offer and try again next summer, this time as unrestricted free agents.

Long story short, it’s now getting to that point of the summer where teams still left with holes in their roster unaddressed by the draft or free agency will revisit their options. And all of them are fully aware that the Pistons’ roster ripples with options for them to explore.

It was July 31 last summer when Minnesota went back to Boston to say, upon further review, a package built around Al Jefferson would suffice if the Celtics were still interested in adding Kevin Garnett to Paul Pierce and Ray Allen.

Maybe an equally dramatic move isn’t in the cards for the Pistons, whose inclusion in a wild assortment of off-season rumors Dumars anticipated once he went so public. But I’d still say it’s more likely than not that something gets done because there are a lot of teams out there – in the Western Conference, especially – run by men feeling an even greater sense of urgency than Dumars to alter the mix.

Take a look at this from Dumars’ perspective. He has a 59-win team with plenty of room for internal growth, thanks to the recent shrewd drafting of Rodney Stuckey, Arron Afflalo, Jason Maxiell, Amir Johnson and Cheikh Samb at spots well below what their current market value would dictate. He has a new coach with a steely aura that could go a long way toward dispelling the emotional intertia that’s settled in among his veterans. He’s in the Eastern Conference, significantly improved but still not as top-heavy as the West, where winning 50 games doesn’t guarantee a playoff berth.

Now think about life if you’re sitting in the GM’s chair in places like Houston, Phoenix, Denver, Dallas, Utah or a handful of other Western franchises. The Lakers are adding 7-footer Andrew Bynum to the reigning conference champions, San Antonio remains a colossus and New Orleans just added valuable vet James Posey to a young core headlined by Chris Paul.

A lot of teams on the other side of the Mississippi figure to be gripped by the fear that standing pat is a sure way of ceding ground. They might not have great confidence that a trade will put them over the top, but many of them are going to be willing to roll the dice for a deal that could propel them in either direction over inactivity that locks them into second-tier status.

That gives Dumars the high ground as he goes hunting a trade. He’s not looking to fleece anyone’s pockets. He has value to offer in exchange for value. But he goes to market knowing his sense of urgency is at least matched and probably exceeded by that of his potential trade partners.

And waiting into late July and beyond does nothing but help his case. The teams that have made noise so far – the teams whose activity has caused the unrest of Pistons fans – have played their hands. That reduces the options for all those teams whose GMs entered the summer, like Dumars, intent on shaking up the mix. And they all still know a potential trade partner with assorted coveted assets is waiting by the phone at Five Championship Drive.

Let me just say that I would easily give up picks, Tay, and Amir for Smith and anything else they need to include as filler.

I've heard he has a crappy attitude, but his ability is everything we're hoping Amir can end up with (except he knows how to avoid fouling out in 3 minutes). I would miss Tay's D and swooping awkward looking dunks a great deal, but this is a difference maker worth the risk.

So can he not play SF then? We need to address that question before moving on with these speculations. I thought he was basically a combo forward (like Marion, Odom, etc). Marvin Williams is a combo forward and they both played together for 30+ MPG. So one of them had to be guarding SF's. They probably had Smith guarding PF's because he has 30 pounds on Williams. Does that mean he can't guard SF's? I don't know. He was a SF in college. Look at his draft profile:



Summary:
Notes: A teammate of Dwight Howard and Randolph Morris on the AAU Atlanta Celtics. Oak Hill Coach Steve Smith, who has coached Jerry Stackhouse, Ron Mercer and Carmelo Anthony, said Smith is the best athlete he has had at Oak Hill. "There's not any scout I've talked to who doesn't think he's a lottery pick or that he's coming out,'' Steve Smith said. "They're all saying he's top five, a high lottery pick. Seventh or eighth is the worst I've heard and most are saying he'll go between three and five.'' Smith had 15 points and 3 boards in the EA Roundball Classic. Was the MVP of the Nike Hoop Summit scoring 27 points. Smith has officially declared for the NBA draft.

Upside: Think Darius Miles with a jump shot. That's the rep Smith has and why most scouts claim he'll be a top-10 selection if he comes out. Before you get too excited (Miles went No. 3), the comparison evokes both the good and the bad. Smith is a top-notch athlete and has guard skills for his size. He jumps out of the gym and can run all day. Unlike Miles, he's a pretty proficient shooter, though he still needs to improve on his 3-point range.

Downside: The problems, however, are also there. He's rail thin, and scouts wonder how he'll handle the rigors of the NBA. He sometimes shrinks in the paint and isn't the rebounder scouts think he should be for his size. He relies on his athleticism too much at times and still is learning the game. He doesn't have any real go-to moves and sometimes hesitates to take his man off the dribble. His ball-handling needs improvement if he's going to make the transition to the three in the pros.

Insider Projection: With all those holes, is he really a top-six pick? Bernie Bickerstaff blasted him after a recent workout with the Bobcats. Several other teams have questioned his work ethic and his hustle. The tools are all there, but is the head. He's one of the toughest guys in the draft to project. Could go as high as No. 6 or could slip all the way to No. 17.

He's more of a 3 than Walter Sharpe is.

lol


zzzzzzzzzz

Let me just say that I would easily give up picks, Tay, and Amir for Smith and anything else they need to include as filler.
Let me say you are smoking the stickiest of the icky value Josh Smith like that. I dont wanna risk being pegged as disliking Josh because I think he's a solid player. But he's not a 3, cannot defend the 3 spot(which is why Marvin Williams did and slowed Pierce down way better in the playoffs before injury), and dribbles with stone hands. Giving up our starting 3 and amir for an undersized leraper PF some here are misguided into thinking as a 3 is a really really bad trade and sets us back into a need at Center and SF. Yea I said SF because Josh is not a legit SF to me. He's a damn solid PF though. I'd much rather prefer to get Marvin Williams and keep Tayshaun. I Think williams has become a solid SF defensively and on the break. He'd be great to bring in off the bench.

Point taken.

Detroit has offered to trade Chauncey Billups and Tayshaun Prince twice, only to be turned down both times. Denver didn't want to part with Carmelo Anthony, and Houston refused to give up Tracy McGrady. Houston is dead set on building around McGrady and Yao, unless someone knocks them off their feet with an offer for T-Mac. Detroit isn't really shopping Billups and Prince, but obviously, they are willing to trade them for a big-time superstar.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3500727&name=broussard_chris

Now are those facts or just him reporting rumored trades, because everyone's heard rumors of those trades with nothing coming of them.

I think the thing that's happening is what is to be expected. Joe is talking trades, but only at full value. Thus he won't have leverage until midseason. But I think he is actively shopping this offseason. I think he could get more value out of his younger guys, but that's a double edged sword since he wants them still.

With so many difficult trade matchups, I would be shocked if, assuming a deal is made, it's a 3 team deal. Remember, when we got Sheed it was a 3 team deal with Atlanta and Boston, right?
Joe is one of the few creative enough to pull it off.

All these "rumors" are such bullshit. This is seriously the worst Pistons offseason in decades.

It's "media" enough to appear in news.google.com. Some goob from "The Bleacher Report" is saying a Sheed for Ilgauskas trade is on the table:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/41458-is-leandro-barbosa-headed-to-the-cleveland-cavaliers


The most interesting deal I have been hearing about for a while has been that the Pistons are looking at adding veteran big man Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

Of course, not even a month ago, it was phrased the following way:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/34500-how-to-keep-lebron-a-cavalier

A deal that I would like to see is the Cavs sending Ilgauskas and Damon Jones to the Pistons for Rasheed Wallace.

So clearly, he was hearing about this trade from his own ass.

I would never make that trade. Not a chance.

Let's face it, the offers are horrible. We aren't going to get a good offer this offseason, and maybe the one mistake Joe D made was telling people he wanted to look at offers. It's taken away some leverage in trade talks.

Apparently the great Rob Parker is claiming that Joe's going to make a trade in the next few days.

It was on Clubhouse Confidential last night from what I have read.

Did he mention what that trade would be? Is he trading in his airline pretzels for airline peanuts?

It's "media" enough to appear in news.google.com. Some goob from "The Bleacher Report" is saying a Sheed for Ilgauskas trade is on the table:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/41458-is-leandro-barbosa-headed-to-the-cleveland-cavaliers

Of course, not even a month ago, it was phrased the following way:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/34500-how-to-keep-lebron-a-cavalier


So clearly, he was hearing about this trade from his own ass.

Wallace x2 reunited!

Sheed for Big Z would be a horrible deal. You lose versitility and defense while gaining a greater injury risk.

Giving Sheed to the Cavs? ... I'm sorry, what? Are we really trying to bail them out and give them a few rings here?

Now that his foot problems seem like they are behind him, I like Z. He would provide post scoring and rebounding, at least.

That said, I'm not wild about helping the Cavs get out of their current payroll problems by handing them Sheed's big expiring contract.

Big Z in the post? He plays there about as often as Sheed does. Maybe in prior to injuries he played there, but now he's just a midrange jump shooter. Basically a taller and slow footed Dyess.

Also, it doesn't really help them much on salary. Big Z has an option for one year longer, but would still be off the books when Lebron is a FA. In fact it might be worse for them (if they signed Sheed to a long term deal and hamstrung them more).

Well, it would be nice to have a center that doesn't love to chuck threes.

And as slow as we play, his footspeed wouldn't matter all that much in the half court offense.

Shouldn't you guys be consulting me on a Cleveland player?

I have seen him play a few times, since I go to UT and have a bunch of friends that are Cavs fans, and he doesn't seem all that impressive to me. He likes to hang out in the same spots that McDyess does and shoot the same mid-range jumpers. Every once in a while he'll drive into the paint and throw a rocket of a hook shot off the back of the rim, though I don't think I've ever seen it drop. No thanks.

Well, it would be nice to have a center that doesn't love to chuck threes.

And as slow as we play, his footspeed wouldn't matter all that much in the half court offense.

What good is a center that doesn't chuck threes, and also doesn't operate in the post? If you're not in the post, or the three point line (as a weapon), all you do is clog the middle of the floor for your other midrange scorers (Dyess and RIP). As I said, he's a slower and taller copy of Dyess.

Well, he managed to pull down 9+ rebounds a game (more than Sheed) and shoot a higher percentage than Sheed (in addition to having a higher scoring average than Sheed).

I think they are of comparable value at this stage of their careers, even though Ilgauska's numbers are better, because of the value of Sheed's expiring contract.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ilgauskas could get 11+ rebounds a game on the Pistons, without having Varejao to steal them from him. I think people sometimes forget that the dude is 7'3".

I do think it would be nice to have a presence in the middle that would keep opponents from driving through the paint with ease.

They also take 2 more shots a game and of course you are going to get more rebounds when you aren't in the post or on the 3 point line taking any shots. He just floats around and waits for them with his huge frame.

You failed to mention that Sheed has twice the AST/TO ratio of him. Oh and BTW, Sheed has a higher FG% on 2P FG's. Big Z scores more because he gets more shots. Sheed has Dyess taking shots, Big Z has Varejao and Ben just standing around waiting for a rebound.

Z is basically their #2 scoring option behind Lebron. Of course he's going to score more.

He had Ben for what, 15 games?

Some of your other points have some merit and I don't want to this to be confused as me campaigning for him here (which it will) but I just don't think it's that outrageous of a difference in value between the two of them.

Of course, we're not going to make a major trade with the Cavs, so it's moot.

I agree it'd be nice having someone that big in the paint, but people still drove on him because he was often too slow to get over. I've seen more of him than anyone here, I'll assume, because I spent many a night having a beer or 6 and cheering against the Cavs while my friends watched the game. He has his good moments but sometimes he just looks downright terrible. That is partly the system they've put him in (he doesn't fit Cleveland's system at all), but its partly just how he is. He can rebound, he can block some shots every once in a while, but he doesn't bang down long very often (not since the foot injuries) and every Cavs fan I know would take Sheed over him in a heartbeat. I know this because they've all told me on multiple occasions.

He had Ben for what, 15 games?

Some of your other points have some merit and I don't want to this to be confused as me campaigning for him here (which it will) but I just don't think it's that outrageous of a difference in value between the two of them.

Of course, we're not going to make a major trade with the Cavs, so it's moot.
Gooden is no better of an offensive player. The point is that Big Z has no competition for shots from big men, especially when Lebron is handling the ball so much (that means the SF is not posting up like Tay does here some).

I don't think there is a big difference in them either (Z will give you more rebounds but Sheed gives you more space for Tay, RIP and Stuckey to operate). However, Sheed comes off the books next year. That gives you the option of dealing him as an expiring for something good. If you have big Z here you have no chance of bringing RIP and Max back if RIP opts out.

Also, Sheed won a ring in his first year here. Big Z has never won anything, plus has the injury label. You can get a lot more for Sheed than you can for Big Z.

I think Z competing for shots with Lebron is a bigger factor than Rasheed competing for shots with other Pistons bigs.

I think Z competing for shots with Lebron is a bigger factor than Rasheed competing for shots with other Pistons bigs.

Not when Z is taking more shots than Sheed. And also not when Z is benifiting from Lebron drawing 4 defenders at a time when he drives. Sheed is forced to create his shots (aside from the open threes) for the most part.

Those are excellent points, you win.

Although I think he'd get more shots with the Pistons than he does with the Cavs.

I think Sheed would get more shots with the Cavs than Z did. LeBron would drive and dish to the 3-point line and actually feel confident that the guy would hit them, unlike when he was dishing out to Wally or Hughes.

Although I think he'd get more shots with the Pistons than he does with the Cavs.

They'd probably force feed him in the paint until they realize that Prince is a better post player than Z. Then they'd realize that when he sets screens up top for Billups and Stuckey that he's outside his range and they'll double on the ball handler. The one area he would be good is setting screens for RIP, but Sheed already does a good job of those, as well as Dyess.

I really don't think he'd be great in our offense. The rebounding would be the only positive IMO. And it's not worth it when you can move Sheed in a deal for a #1 scoring option.

Mike Brown wouldn't last more than a half season with Sheed on board.

Mike Brown wouldn't last more than a half season with Sheed on board.
This is a very big thing no one has really thought about yet. Is TheBron a good enough leader to handle Sheed, the way Ben used to stand up to him and keep him in check? I say nay.

LeBron is quite possibly the worst leader in the NBA. He'd throw a fit with Sheed in there.

As would Sheed with LBJ in there.

Sheed would run roughshod over Brown.



also, I just wanted to type "run roughshod"

Well, it would be nice to have a center that doesn't love to chuck threes.

And as slow as we play, his footspeed wouldn't matter all that much in the half court offense.
Chucking jumpshots over 3's? He's a true center but his injury history and lack of consistency really doesn't strike me as worth giving sheed up for. I'd like to add a low post center next to sheed. Steep request, but still not cool with this trade idea.

We could trade Max and Afflalo for Howard right? That would solve our problems, no?

*Assume green text, I don't remember the code and the buttons don't work at my office*

.

Thanks

Joe is right around 50% in my book right now. Acquiring Kwame Brown...mistake. Ranting and raving at the media that every player is on the block, and thereby reducing their already low values...mistake. I don't know what to expect guys. Hold me.

Joe is right around 50% in my book right now. Acquiring Kwame Brown...mistake. Ranting and raving at the media that every player is on the block, and thereby reducing their already low values...mistake. I don't know what to expect guys. Hold me.
He made an emotional mistake, but not one that goes any further than the offseason. The reality is that by trade dealine all these guys value is gonna shoot through the roof, especially Sheed, Rip, and Billups.

Acquiring a True Center for 1 year with an option isn't a mistake imo. It's something we needed. Is it high caliber? no. But it's not a mistake either.

Seems like a catch 22, he doesn't sign him and we are still looking for a center while Joe D is knocked for supposedly standing pat by the armchair gurus. We acquire him and no matter what the scenario people complain like we gave the keys to detroit to Kwame Brown.

He made an emotional mistake, but not one that goes any further than the offseason. The reality is that by trade dealine all these guys value is gonna shoot through the roof, especially Sheed, Rip, and Billups.

Acquiring a True Center for 1 year with an option isn't a mistake imo. It's something we needed. Is it high caliber? no. But it's not a mistake either.

Seems like a catch 22, he doesn't sign him and we are still looking for a center while Joe D is knocked for supposedly standing pat by the armchair gurus. We acquire him and no matter what the scenario people complain like we gave the keys to detroit to Kwame Brown.

Very nice.

And perfectly summed up.

Lock this thread.

Wojo


Billups' heart is with Pistons
Rumors about his status have swirled

BIRMINGHAM -- There's a new one practically every week. He's heading to Denver. No, wait, it's Golden State. There's a package deal here, speculation there.

Chauncey Billups has listened from afar, wondering how it got to this, how he went from Mr. Big Shot to Mr. Big Rumor. Ultimately, he understands the trade talk because he understands the business, which took another surprising turn Monday when the Pistons signed free-agent center Kwame Brown, 26, a former No. 1 overall pick.

None of the noise and upheaval has changed Billups' stance. He still desperately wants to be a Piston. And he still expects to be a Piston -- along with many of his teammates -- when the season starts.

"Yep, I do, without a doubt," Billups said Monday, looking relaxed during a charity golf outing at Birmingham Country Club to benefit the Children's Center.

Before entering the country club, Billups spent about 30 minutes sitting in a car with Pistons president Joe Dumars, who had spawned speculation by declaring there were no "sacred cows" after the Pistons lost ingloriously to Boston to end another promising season.

Dumars and Billups appeared animated as they talked, their first meeting since Dumars' volatile postseason address to the media. When the chat was over, Dumars departed and later declined to comment, and Billups sounded like a guy who appreciated what he heard.

"We had a real good talk," Billups said. "Joe and I have a great relationship, and we knew at some point we had to sit face-to-face. I knew none of this was ever personal, so it doesn't really hurt. But it does get your attention. A lot of the rumors have been untrue, but in Joe's seat, you always gotta be looking to make your team better."

Dumars has explored plenty of options during this unsettled summer, and the Brown signing is another attempt to coax productivity out of an underperforming, wayward talent.

It has become apparent, though, it won't be easy for Dumars to alter the roster as drastically as some had expected, or many had wanted. Frankly, I'm not surprised. Despite his end-of-season anger, Dumars values his players highly, probably higher than other teams do. He also believes the switch at coach, from Flip Saunders to a tougher Michael Curry, will make a difference.

So the guess is, Billups will be back, and that would be a good thing. And there's a solid chance he'll be reunited with the Pistons' core, including the troublesome Rasheed Wallace, who made a not-so-subtle pitch to stay by showing up at Curry's introductory news conference.

Staleness a problem
I do think the Pistons have staleness issues. But I'll say it again -- it isn't worth tearing apart a team that has gone to six straight Eastern Conference Finals just to make a point, with no guarantee of improvement. If Dumars can't get a potential star in return, he shouldn't deal.

"That'd be perfectly fine with me (if the roster didn't change)," Billups said. "Of course we changed one big thing, the coach, and that makes a difference. I think Sheed is gonna be good. Flip and Sheed had their moments and I think it really, really hurt us, to be honest with you. But he looks at MC (Curry) a little different. I think he respects Mike."

Billups realized how that sounded and tried to explain.

"With all due respect to Flip, and I'm a fan of Flip's, I think Michael will hold guys more accountable," Billups said. "He's just tough, and we need somebody like that. We don't need a coach that's the greatest Xs and Os guy because we got guys that know how to play. It's about being hungry, and the guys that don't do that are gonna find themselves with extended minutes on the bench."

The continued emergence of backup Rodney Stuckey is another way the Pistons could improve without significantly altering the roster. In fact, Stuckey's hot stock is one reason Billups' name has been so prominent in trade speculation.

Maybe Stuckey could step in. But Billups isn't ready to step aside, and I'm not sure Dumars is ready to set him aside.

"I'm very happy with Stuck and I'll help him as much as I can, and he had a good end of the year," Billups said. "But personally, I don't think there are too many guys better than me, at my position, and I say that without being arrogant or cocky."

Playoff struggles
Billups, 31, had another fine season, but when he suffered a pulled hamstring in the Orlando series, he wasn't completely right the rest of the way. He finished the playoffs with a 16.1 scoring average and a .401 shooting percentage, and he has struggled in the Pistons' last three playoff ousters.

So Billups expected the trade winds. He just didn't realize how persistently they'd blow. He takes some solace knowing Boston's longtime star, Paul Pierce, was the object of numerous rumors before leading the Celtics to a title. The sudden shift isn't lost on Billups -- a year ago at the same charity golf outing, he talked about his new five-year, $60 million contract.

"When I signed, it was pretty much understood I'd finish my career as a Piston," Billups said. "I know as the leader of the team, I take some responsibility for not reaching our goals, but not all of it. When (the rumors) first started, it felt like my name was the only one out there. So it was like, man, you're putting all this on me?"

The blame has been spread, and so have some of the trade rumors. But again, Dumars is discovering the difficulties in getting fair value for older players, which means as the summer goes on, Billups' chances of returning grow substantially.

That's certainly not a bad scenario, even if the Pistons' age makes it harder to keep contending.

"No way are we too old," Billups said. "Having the young guys behind us, I think that keeps the window open. I've been to the top of the mountain with these guys, and if you change things, it takes awhile to get back to that level."

There wasn't defiance in Billups' voice, but there was confidence. And in the middle of a steamy summer, there was the slightest hint of relief, perhaps knowing rumors of his departure were decidedly premature.

More empty talk and thinly veiled excuses. Yay.

First Tayshaun, now Billups. I hope every Piston that tried to talk his way out of responsibility gets shipped to the shittiest destination possible.

These guys are actually making me respect Sheed more. At least he's had the self respect to keep his ass out of the paper making empty promises after yet another failure to back up his big talk from last season.

I couldn't trade you for McGrady so I got us Kwame Brown instead.
Championship, here we come.

We don't need a coach that's the greatest Xs and Os guy because we got guys that know how to play.
Yeah, we know Chaunce, we know.

Championship, here we come.
Damn was it really that bad Fool? You do realize we woulda had to become the Detroit T-Macs to pay the Ransom for him?

Yeah, we know Chaunce, we know.
Chauncy shouldn't have a say in it because he was a supporter of Flip when Ben and Rasheed both said otherwise. Now he's merely echoing the sentiment of every other player on the team(i think Lindsey had already said this stuff) in hopes of keeping his leadership role.

Chauncy shouldn't have a say in it because he was a supporter of Flip when Ben and Rasheed both said otherwise. Now he's merely echoing the sentiment of every other player on the team(i think Lindsey had already said this stuff) in hopes of saving his own ass.

Fixed.

Coaches who Cbill likes because they give him a chunk of the power w/o consequence=Bad. Coaches who piss him off and hold him accountable more than asny one because he is the PG=Good. Any Questions?

More top drawer stuff from Hoopsworld:


Pressure on the Pistons

By: Preetom Bhattacharya
Last Updated: 8/1/08 5:01 PM ET

The Detroit Pistons have been the class organization of the Eastern Conference for the past six seasons, getting to the Conference Finals each year. But, doing their best Buffalo Bills impression, the team has only made the next step to the NBA Finals twice, winning one title.

The road has never been easy, as the Pistons have faced challenges from LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers and the Big Three in Boston. Now, however, Detroit's status as one of the top dogs in the East will be in question, as Milwaukee, Toronto and Philadelphia will be noticeably better with the changes they've made this offseason.

All that has put pressure on Pistons' President of Basketball Operations Joe Dumars, who is now looking around to work his magic and re-tool the team. Rumors of interest in Tracy McGrady, Josh Smith, and Carmelo Anthony have made headlines this summer, as everyone on the Pistons is on notice and could be moved at anytime.

But new Pistons' head coach Michael Curry cautions the speculators to remember that the Pistons will be very judicious in their approach to improving. "I think when Joe Dumars said he would make changes, he said he would only make changes that would make the team better," Curry said. "I'm not really worried about the teams that made changes; it's a strong conference, but I'm more concerned with how we continue to improve and how we improve as a team."

Any talk of change for Detroit inevitably leads to discussions around Rodney Stuckey, the team's second-year reserve point guard. Dumars has always been high on Stuckey's talent, drafting him 15th overall in the 2007 Draft, higher than Stuckey was expected to go. With Stuckey playing so well last season and in summer league play, many feel that starter Chauncey Billups can be moved in a deal to bring in some youthful talent to Detroit.

Curry, though, said that he expects both Billups and Stuckey to don the Pistons' red, white, and blue next season. "We plan on having Chauncey and Stuckey," he said plainly.

Stuckey, for his part, has been relatively quiet in all of this. When approached to comment about all the rumors swirling the team, Stuckey was frank. "I'm ready," he said emphatically. "That's real talk."

The conversation ended there, but Stuckey had made his point.

In any case, the expectations placed on the Pistons don't have second-year guard Arron Afflalo worried at all. "That pressure to win is always a good thing, it makes you want to win every year," Afflalo told HOOPSWORLD. "Teams might be improving, but I think Joe has done a great job of establishing something here. We'll be fine, we'll be at the top, because we have the all the competitive spirit and the players to do it."

Perhaps that swagger is all that it will take.

Baseball Fan (Detroit): So, is Detroit "stuck" with their lineup? Or will Dumars really be able to make a big trade?

John Hollinger: Patience, we still have two and a half months until opening day. The Kwame Brown signing, to me, is a telltale sign that Joe D is looking to move a frontcourt player (likely Sheed).

Is he implying that Kwame will replace Sheed in the starting lineup, and then we trade Sheed for a small forward or guard?? Because if we trade Sheed for another PF, say Zach Randolph, that doesn't make much sense.

I'm just waiting for Denver to say Melo's on the market, trading Camby was waving the white flag...

I'm just waiting for Denver to say Melo's on the market, trading Camby was waving the white flag...
Exactly my thoughts. Or Melo gets pissed at the team's lack of commitment to winning, or any other such complaint, and asks to be traded. That's our best hope for a big trade as I see it.

Baseball Fan (Detroit): So, is Detroit "stuck" with their lineup? Or will Dumars really be able to make a big trade?

John Hollinger: Patience, we still have two and a half months until opening day. The Kwame Brown signing, to me, is a telltale sign that Joe D is looking to move a frontcourt player (likely Sheed).

Big Swami: John, you are a cunt and know nothing.

Full disclosure: Hoopsworld


Evening Scoop: Rasheed to Charlotte?

By: Bill Ingram
Last Updated: 8/28/08 9:28 PM ET

I've had a couple of emails today from Charlotte Bobcats fans who saw a report in Sports Illustrated suggesting that the NBA's Charlotte Bobcats and Detroit Pistons might be working on a trade - or could eventually work a trade - that would send Rasheed Wallace back to his old stomping grounds near UNC. Now that Larry Brown is coaching the Tarheel-laden Charlotte Bobcats, you're going to see a lot of rumors about former Tarheels returning home to bring the state's only pro basketball franchise up to the level of their impressive collegiate programs.

That feat will require more than a trade for Rasheed Wallace, as those North Carolina college teams are pretty darn good! But that's beside the point right now.

What the real agenda here? We've all read and re-read the many accounts of Joe Dumars talking about how he wants to make a blockbuster deal to improve his team. The problem with blockbuster deals is that they often decimate both sides for a period of time. Considering that Pistons are not only an elite level team in the East as constructed, with three All-Stars in their starting lineup, and that they already have the next round of starters in training behind those All-Stars, you have to wonder just how much improving there is to do. All the talk of trading Chauncey Billups and Tayshaun Prince seemed ridiculous to me, as you'll never find a better clutch performer than Billups in the trade market and Prince is the glue that holds everything together. We all know what happens when you dissolve the glue.

But here's where the "eventually" part of SI's logic comes in. Wallace will be a free agent next summer, meaning roughly $13.6 million will come off the books. The Pistons can either keep Wallace and use that cap space themselves - to re-sign Richard Hamilton or perhaps lure a replacement like Ray Allen to Detroit - or they can deal him at the deadline to acquire a player who helps them long-term. Gerald Wallace would certainly look good in a Pistons uniform.

On the flip side we have the Bobcats, who have an incredible amount of talent in their lineup but weren't able to put it together under head coach Sam Vincent. If it gets to be February and Larry Brown hasn't had any better luck in that department, Rasheed Wallace could be the guy who comes in a makes an impact. He might just be the piece that gets them into the playoffs.

Right now it's almost silly to speculate, though that's what August is for. The Pistons should stand pat and let their core group have another shot at a title. Plenty of people will pick the Pistons to come out of the East as constructed. As for Charlotte, they need to give Brown a chance to see what he can do with the talent they already have before they start blowing things up. That team could be very good for a very long time if they come together the right way.

Bleh, everytime I see this thread updated I get hopeful that something new is being thrown around. Oh well...

Indeed. This thread should be empty.

Did anybody else just catch Joe on WDFN with Sean?

He still sounded pissed off. Said a deal was never done because there was never anything offered that would have benifited the Pistons. He did say "sacred" again but didn't mention any cows.

At the end when Sean asked him why is this year going to be any different than the previous year he said, "because this year we have a coach that feels the exact same way that I do, and because we have young players that will push for time and play that have something to prove".

Fuck yeah Snarks!

I hope, for Joe's sake, he's right. They have to play like they have a mega chip on their shoulders, nobody's going to pick them to do jack shit this year, so if they're truly motivated by having their backs against the wall like they claim, this season will be the first time in awhile where they'll be able to prove it...

Even last year, the majority of the ESPN NBA analyst brass picked them to beat Boston, but now, nobody and I mean nobody, is giving them any love...

I'm skeptic, but it's not a stretch to say coaching can't change things here. We've had the talent since 2004 to win it. You can blame it on coaching, the players taking it easy, being worn out, injuries...whatever. The fact remains we have enough talent to win it, we just aren't getting the job done. Will Curry be the difference? I don't know. But it's not wrong to think a new coach could change a lot.

I'm skeptic, but it's not a stretch to say coaching can't change things here. We've had the talent since 2004 to win it. You can blame it on coaching, the players taking it easy, being worn out, injuries...whatever. The fact remains we have enough talent to win it, we just aren't getting the job done. Will Curry be the difference? I don't know. But it's not wrong to think a new coach could change a lot.


But the core of this team is 4 years older and a lot richer than they were then.

Curry's influence, the development of Stuckey and Sheed being in a contract year are going to be key factors...

last time Sheed was in a contract year, he dominated...

If you ask me though, it seems like everybody is forgetting that we won 59 games last year, dominated the West H2H (except for Utah, and Sacramento), and allowed the fewest ppg than any other team in the league...

It just shocks me how there's so many idiots who think that "not making a big move" suddenly makes you an average to mediocre ballclub...

Did Boston improve?? No...losing Posey makes them a weaker team, even if just a little

Did Detroit improve?? No...but with the new coach and not losing anybody that was important, you'd have to think our chances Vs. Boston would be better now than last year right??

The way I see it, Boston is the only team that can keep us out of the Finals...

and you can pretty much already guarantee a Philly/Cleveland, 4/5 matchup in the playoffs, so let's hope Boston gets the 1 seed...

But the core of this team is 4 years older and a lot richer than they were then.

Richer has nothing to do with talent. As I said you can point to many reasons why we have fallen short. In the end we didn't get the job done while having enough talent to get it done. There are maybe 2-3 teams with more talent than the Pistons right now, despite the age. So pick whatever reason you want for the losses. Either way, it's not stupid to think that coaching changes couldn't get us over the top.

If he can get those guys to play all out, who's to say we can't win it all with the same guys?

Note, that doesn't mean I wasn't/am not for changes. It just means that I give us a decent chance with no further moves. There is room for improvement, but if nothing happens we're still in the mix.

I agree with Chris. I will not label this team "DONE" until I see it with my own eyes. Yeah, I'm with everyone else in that I've been disappointed every year since we raised the banner, but by no means do I discredit what has been done here. Honestly, I'll probably feel like crying when it's all over.

DONE