What I meant by primary player is in terms of the contract/player who is the key not the filler like Dupree, or Blaylock.

What do you think the team will next? Secondly who will be moved? And last within the guidlines of reality what would you like to happen to the roster if Webber ends up here?

Is it absolutely necessary to move someone? I'm thinking that sending Amir to the NBDL cleared a spot for CW, and no one has guaranteed Webb anything in terms of minutes right away. I say wait 10-15 games to see how he is able to work himself into the lineup before considering any other moves. If he can't work himself in, it's entirely possible we cut him also. If he can work himself in, why not preserve an even deeper bench? I would only assume they would move someone else if there was an offer from another team that better filled an obvious team need, and I'm not sure what that would be.

I would send DD with Flip for a swingman. You won't get fair value for Sheed, so there is no point in moving him. Nazr's contract will make people shy from him. Dyess could be moved, but then we become thin at PF if C-Webb gets hurt again. I'd say DD first (packaged with someone), or Dyess second.

I would send DD with Flip for a swingman. You won't get fair value for Sheed, so there is no point in moving him. Nazr's contract will make people shy from him. Dyess could be moved, but then we become thin at PF if C-Webb gets hurt again. I'd say DD first (packaged with someone), or Dyess second.

I see us keeping DD as Shaq insurance. He seems perfectly content in his role on the team plus we all know that Nazr has foul problems. I see Dice being the first to go but I worry as to that having a negative effect on Chauncey resigning since it is his buddy. Flip Murray is as good as gone when Chauncey comes back. All of a sudden my "Do we really need Sheed" thread has life again.

We don't need a swingman. We have Delfino who's been playing great lately. He's finally developing into the guy we all thought he would, so why trade for someone to take his place now? Blalock is coming along well but he's still not ready to be a primary backup. If we're going to trade someone with some value, bring in a solid backup point guard. Then Blalock can go down to the D-League and work on that jumper so he can be our backup PG in a season or two. The logical trade is still Nazr/Flip or McDyess/Flip.

Dyess>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nazr and has less of an ego. simple choice imo.

We don't need a swingman. We have Delfino who's been playing great lately. He's finally developing into the guy we all thought he would, so why trade for someone to take his place now? Blalock is coming along well but he's still not ready to be a primary backup. If we're going to trade someone with some value, bring in a solid backup point guard. Then Blalock can go down to the D-League and work on that jumper so he can be our backup PG in a season or two. The logical trade is still Nazr/Flip or McDyess/Flip.
Because Delfino is excelling at driving the hole, but sucking at standing at the three point line to spread the floor. Mo Pete would take that role and allow Delfino to be the slasher that he really is. It would also allow us to try Delfino at backup PG some. Worst case senario is that you have to find minutes for Mo Pete and Delfino. Prince and RIP should only be playing 33 minutes anyway. So Mo Pete and Delfino each get 15 MPG of backup duty, plus you could use Tay or Delfino at backup PG some nights to get another 5-10 minutes of play for Mo Pete and Delfino.

If you can find a solid backup PG for Flip and a big then I approve of that too.

IBGMEW

IBGMEW

This is my favorite bit.[smilie=groove.gif]

This is my favorite bit.[smilie=groove.gif]

And I BLOW at that game - but I actually got that one.

Thanks for making me feel special, Chris.

SCIMTE

Dyess>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nazr and has less of an ego. simple choice imo.


I have to disagree here. Nazr is only playing 20 minutes per night, and he is putting up better numbers. McDyess is around 25-28 and is only putting up 5 and 5. Not to forget, McDyess is shooting 41% and Nazr is shooting 53%.

I really like McDyess, and he will probably be one of our best players come playoff time. But Nazr is giving us much better production in less minutes. Also, Nazr is three years younger and doesn't have a horrible contract like many people seem to think. Nazr doesn't have an ego either, yea, he's frustrated with Saunders' quirky rotations, but who isn't?

Nazr comes to play every night, has championship experience, has better production, and is 3 years younger than Antonio, so why is Antonio better?

I too would move Dyess, mostly because Webber does everything Dyess does only better. Nazr at least goes toward the basket when he's shooting.

Also keep in ming that if we trade Nazr, we have one true center left (DD doesn't count because he's a situational player that rebounds and plays D well) and that's Sheed. We all know Sheed fits the mold of a true center well.

If we get Webber I would not move Nazr. I would try DD first and Dyess second. In a dream world I would trade Sheed, Dyess, Flip and both first rounders for KG, but that won't happen. I'd crap my pants with that lineup:

9 man rotation:
PG Billups/Blaylock
SG RIP/Delfino
SF Tay/Defino
PF KG/Max
C Nazr/Webber or DD (depending on matchup)

I too would move Dyess, mostly because Webber does everything Dyess does only better. Nazr at least goes toward the basket when he's shooting.
with what results and how often?? I'm not as quick to write Dyess off and he's less foul prone than Nazr. theres a reason Nazr doesnt play many minutes, and its because he hacks more than a pick up game baller. And again Dyess doesnt complain about how much or little he plays. I dont want to hear Nazr whine about Webber playing more than him and watching Dyess hit his yearly second half stride with another team. This season is annoying enough w/o having that happen.

Chris I question how much of a "true center" Nazr is. When we start maxiell it looks like we have two PF's on the floor IMO and the bobcats made it a point to attack Nazr with their actual "true center" brezec. If he cant defend "true centers" then how is he one?



Nazr doesn't have an ego either, yea, he's frustrated with Saunders' quirky rotations, but who isn't?

I respectfully disagree on that one. I get the opposite from the "i dont want to complain but i deserve more minutes" speech. Its damn near like saying "no disrespect but...". I think he does have an ego and this isnt the first time he's complained about playing time he hasn't earned. Did it quite a bit in San Antonio.

Brezec was shooting jump shots and fade aways. Brezec is not a true center. Nazr can defend guys in the paint, but doesn't work well out in space. No center is going to stop those fade aways that Brezec hit. I don't care if you had D Rob in his prime he wasn't going to block a fade away from a 7 footer.

Brezec was shooting jump shots and fade aways. Brezec is not a true center.
and he beat nazr in the paint last night. which is kinda the point. If Nazr is a good paint defender, i havent seen it and neither have the teams we've played who go to the basket like theres nothing there when Nazr is out there w/o sheed"

and he beat nazr in the paint last night. which is kinda the point. If Nazr is a good paint defender, i havent seen it and neither have the teams we've played who go to the basket like theres nothing there when Nazr is out there w/o sheed"

No, read my post again. He was shooting fade away jumpers. From the post, yes, but fade aways. He didn't back Nazr down. Name me one player in the league that could consistantly stop fade away shots from a 7 footer. and nobody ever said Nazr was a good paint defender. he can guard his man, but can't play help defense. That's not his fault anyway...it's Billups and Flip that can't stop dribble penetration.

with what results and how often?? I'm not as quick to write Dyess off and he's less foul prone than Nazr. theres a reason Nazr doesnt play many minutes, and its because he hacks more than a pick up game baller. And again Dyess doesnt complain about how much or little he plays. I dont want to hear Nazr whine about Webber playing more than him and watching Dyess hit his yearly second half stride with another team. This season is annoying enough w/o having that happen.

Chris I question how much of a "true center" Nazr is. When we start maxiell it looks like we have two PF's on the floor IMO and the bobcats made it a point to attack Nazr with their actual "true center" brezec. If he cant defend "true centers" then how is he one?


I respectfully disagree on that one. I get the opposite from the "i dont want to complain but i deserve more minutes" speech. Its damn near like saying "no disrespect but...". I think he does have an ego and this isnt the first time he's complained about playing time he hasn't earned. Did it quite a bit in San Antonio.


How often is the key word here, but the results are a clear 53% shooting, good enough for a top 6 spot in the league...

Name me one player in the league that could consistantly stop fade away shots from a 7 footer.
you dont want me to. :)
http://www.detroitbadboys.com/images/BenWallaceBodybuilder.jpg

I guess agree to disagree on Nazr. I dont think his one on one defense is much to tout either, as reflected by his foul trouble. Or maybe it only refleects his weak help side defense only. Either way I wouldnt miss anything he attempts to do on defense.


How often is the key word here, but the results are a clear 53% shooting, good enough for a top 6 spot in the league...
on 180 attempts. about as many as Mcdyess has coming off the bench. Not impressive to me. Im not dissing it, but its not impressive either. not enough to offset the fact that he'll never get more minutes because he fouls too much. I'd honestly rather have dyess be our "true center" if we went that route(though technically we dont have to). Nazr's rep as a true center is kinda fishy, and in San Antonio Duncan is really a center playing PF and their primary defender with made life easier for the nazmiester. And even in that scenario he had trouble fighting off Rasho.

now, that's just weird, Gutz, because it looks like Ben is staring at Jessica Biel...

As far as minutes go Gutz, Dyess plays 20 and Webber never averages less than 30. IMO covering the minutes of anyone we trade isn't an issue (since not enough minutes is the reason for the trade in the first place).


on 180 attempts. about as many as Mcdyess has coming off the bench. Not impressive to me. Im not dissing it, but its not impressive either. not enough to offset the fact that he'll never get more minutes because he fouls too much.

Dyess plays more minutes than Nazr.

minutes do matter since Nazr isnt happy getting what he's getting with a guy you even said isnt as good as webber getting more than him as is. So with Webber coming in is that better for him and his complaints? to me, no. But fair enough, my value of nazr what he does just differs. Its all about how much you value his intangibles i guess.

I would wanna deal Nazr and Flip for a backup PG. Expiring maybe. Someone like Cassell but not him inparticular.
Im not gonna lie any deal that gets Flip outa here is a positive in my book. No need for him IMO. With Delfino ability to hit the 3 and finally realizing that what got him here was his slashing Flip is the odd man out. Dealing him would force Carlos into major bench minutes and Flip the ability to get a mew contract next year.

Flip + DD = you guessed it...




Earl Watson

Flip + DD = you guessed it...




Earl Watson


Isnt he starting for them now. Maybe a lill showcaseing eheh....

And they (Sonics) want DD desperately.

Flip + DD = you guessed it...




Earl Watson

But what does "SCIMTE" mean?

But what does "SCIMTE" mean?

six characters is much too easy

...but then again, maybe not.

Flip + DD = you guessed it...




Earl Watson




IBGMEW

^exactly, too easy

IBSSTTFEWWMTMMTUWTPGP, TSIPWTFC

In Before Someone Says That They Feel Earl Watson Would Make Too Much Money To Use With The Point Guard Position, That Said I Probably Would Trade For Chris.

That's my guess.

The "TUWT" part is tough.

I think Glenn and Fool are the same person.

That's the only explination I have.

In Before Someone Says That They Feel Earl Watson Would Make Too Much Money To Use With The Point Guard Position, That Said I Probably Would Trade For Chris.

Correct guesses are in bold.

Damn, I got the general meaning of the first part right though.

In Before Someone Says That Trading For Earl Watson Would Mean Too Much Money Taken Up With The Point Guard Position, That Salary Is Probably Waiting To Fellate Chris.

The red, I'm not too sure about.

Close enough.

In Before Someone Says That Trading For Earl Watson Would Mean Too Much Money Tied Up With The Point Guard Position, That Someone Is Probably WTFChris.

Okay, we can move on now.

no need to trade for me. I'm just sitting on my ass at work waiting for a contract offer.

Close enough.

In Before Someone Says That Trading For Earl Watson Would Mean Too Much Money Tied Up With The Point Guard Position, That Someone Is Probably WTFChris.

Okay, we can move on now.

I wouldn't say that under the current circumstances. That is because we'd be rid of Flip and Delfino becomes the backup swingman while Billups plays some backup SG with Watson in there. And since we are getting Webber we'll simply let DD and Dyess leave next year (whichever isn't traded) and that will free up the money for Watson's contract anyway.

You think Dyess will walk? Think someone will throw their full MLE at him?

Supposing we get Webber and Webber plays substantial minutes, I can see Dyess opting out. He could get MLE type money for a couple years from a contender. If we won a ring, I could see him retiring too.

If we had Webber on board, I'd probably move Dyess for Watson anyway, since we know when DD's contract will end. Plus DD can go in and guard Big Z or Shaq for a few minutes.

I would really like to see Watson end up here.

Here is a question I have to ask...With LB in Philly and Zeke in NY does anyone think that Joe D would move Sheed? Those are two places where the Pistons could get equal value.

If Joe could somehow steal David Lee out of there Joe would regain hero status in my eyes. He's exactly the type of player that the Pistons are missing. (However, Sheed must still be here)

We'd probably have to take back Francis from NY to get salary from them, even if he's added to a player like Lee. I'm not sure how many years he has left on his deal. If Philly wants Sheed and Dyess and a pick for Daly and AI2 that would be stellar.

if we add salary to next year's team, we'd uber fuck ourselves for billups. right now, we can offer him like 14 million *, so add earl watsons 4 mil (?) and we pretty much kill our hopes at keeping billups.

that said, i'd think it would only make sense to move either dyess or nazr, for monetary reasons as well as being able to dole out reasonable amount of pt. between the 2, i think we're splitting hairs. i like dyess's d and contract better, but i do like that nazr plays in the paint so much on O. he does whine, but he's so far down on the totem pole it honestly doesnt matter.

*number in dispute

Why doesn't Joe deal with Billy King and Zeke more often, every gm that has in the past has walked away from the deal pretty damn happy, just ask teams like Orlando, Denver, San Antonio, and Chicago.

I almost think that Joe has a sense of loyalty to Zeke. If he continued screwing Isiah time and time again, the friendship would probably falter.

It's like having a retarded brother - you could take whatever you wanted from them at any time, but a sense of brotherhood would tell you what's right and wrong.

if we add salary to next year's team, we'd uber fuck ourselves for billups. right now, we can offer him like 14 million *, so add earl watsons 4 mil (?) and we pretty much kill our hopes at keeping billups.

that said, i'd think it would only make sense to move either dyess or nazr, for monetary reasons as well as being able to dole out reasonable amount of pt. between the 2, i think we're splitting hairs. i like dyess's d and contract better, but i do like that nazr plays in the paint so much on O. he does whine, but he's so far down on the totem pole it honestly doesnt matter.

*number in dispute

Depends. If we move Nazr or Dyess to get him as you say then it is basically a wash. The only difference is the money is locked up in PG's instead of big men. That could be bad, except that in this senario we'd have both Webber and Max for cheap anyway. Watson would be insurance in case Billups bolts.

Damien Wilkins does not have any state of Michigan ties as far as I know, which means this is probably garbage.

Also, if DD goes to Seattle, we're getting Earl Watson, not Wilkins.

http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/sonics/story/6321882p-5511158c.html


Dale Davis to Seattle?

FRANK HUGHES; The News Tribune
Published: January 13th, 2007 01:00 AM

For weeks, Seattle SuperSonics coach Bob Hill has been asking general manager Rick Sund to acquire a veteran center who could fill in this season until Robert Swift returns next season from knee surgery.

The issue has been finding one with the right attitude, the right contract and a team willing to give up that player in a trade.

Now, it seems, one is out there. With the Detroit Pistons the frontrunners to sign Chris Webber, whose contract was bought out by the Philadelphia 76ers, several media outlets in Detroit reported that the Pistons would like to trade Dale Davis to accommodate the signing of Webber.

A few weeks ago, Hill said Davis, in the final year of a contract that pays him $3.5 million, was a viable candidate for the Sonics because he can play center and because of his contract. Hill reiterated the attraction of Davis on Friday night.

“Rick and Dave (Pendergraft, the team’s director of player personnel) and those guys are working their tails off to try to find a situation to get us some help, there is no doubt about that,” Hill said. “Dale Davis, we drafted in Indiana. I love him.

“Dale Davis would be a very good addition to our team, obviously. There are not a lot of those guys available, but Rick is all over the guys who are or could be available.”

The issue is matching salaries. The player with the salary closest to Davis’ is Damien Wilkins, who makes $2.7 million. To meet requirements of the collective bargaining agreement, the Sonics would have to include a player such as Mike Wilks.

The question the Sonics must ask is if they want to mortgage part of their future for a player who is not likely to help them long term.

I think the issue is -- why do we want Damien Wilkins?

Apart from his pedigree, there ain't much there. I'd want a draft pick.

Dale Davis's Deal is 3.5 million. Based on the CBA (X deal * .75) or (X deal * 1.25) is the min and max we can take back. In this case, the Min deal is 2.625 million the Max is 4.375 million.

Nazr's deal 5.215 could get back Min 3.912 Max 6.52.

Wlikens deal fits the DD deal.

DD & Flip for Watson works too.

It even creates another roster spot so we can sign both CWebb and Jalen.

DD & Flip for Watson works too.

It even creates another roster spot so we can sign both CWebb and Jalen.

That makes the most sense to be honest. It would give Detroit a solid 1-10, and makes us perhaps the deepest team period.

C Webber/Nazr
PF Sheed/Maxiell or Dice depending on who is more dependable
SF Prince/Rose
SG Rip/Delfino
PG Billups/Watson

With situational roles for Hunter and either Dice or Maxiell

DD & Flip for Watson works too.

It even creates another roster spot so we can sign both CWebb and Jalen.

You really think the Sonics want Flip back? I dont.

I'd rather see if they want Dice for Watson and then deal Dale and Murray seperately (to Hou for Bonzi?)

PG- Billups / Watson
SG- Hamilton / Delfino
SF- Prince / Bonzi
PF- Sheed / Max
C- CWebb / Nazr

I'll take it. If we can't get Bonzi, I still like Delfino @ SG and SF over him splitting time with Murray.

If they want a center badly enough they can put up with him and his expiring deal for a couple of months, or they can deal him again before the deadline.

That makes the most sense to be honest. It would give Detroit a solid 1-10, and makes us perhaps the deepest team period.

C Webber/Nazr
PF Sheed/Maxiell or Dice depending on who is more dependable
SF Prince/Rose
SG Rip/Delfino
PG Billups/Watson

With situational roles for Hunter and either Dice or Maxiell

That might be another ring right there.

The only thing that I like about Bonzi over all other SF/SG options is his ability to rebound. He is capable of putting up PF rebounding numbers and since we struggle to rebound it would be nice to get help.

No way to Watson. We can't take on salary beyond this year or it puts us in jeopardy of not being able to sign Chauncey. That's why C-Webb, Jalen, Bonzi and Mo-Pete are so attractive. Great additions this year and don't hurt our chances for Chauncey. Plus, I don't want to have $5.5 mil wrapped up in a back-up for the next 3 years.

No way to Watson. We can't take on salary beyond this year or it puts us in jeopardy of not being able to sign Chauncey. That's why C-Webb, Jalen, Bonzi and Mo-Pete are so attractive. Great additions this year and don't hurt our chances for Chauncey. Plus, I don't want to have $5.5 mil wrapped up in a back-up for the next 3 years.

agree, only exception if we could trade Nazr for Watson, they both earn the same over the next 4 years...

The only thing that I like about Bonzi over all other SF/SG options is his ability to rebound. He is capable of putting up PF rebounding numbers and since we struggle to rebound it would be nice to get help.

Yeah, he put up like 38 points and 15 boards(I think) against the Spurs in round 1.

If Bonzi is really focused, I think he can do well when we really need him to step up

agree, only exception if we could trade Nazr for Watson, they both earn the same over the next 4 years...

Exactly, but I see that as a long shot. We'd have to throw in picks in my mind, which I'm not willing to do for a back-up. Even if that were to go down, who are our big men in the next couple years? Davis and Webber would most likely be gone after this year. That'd leave Sheed and Maxiel, then we'd have to use a pick or two on a big man, which kills our advantage of going best player available.

http://www.startribune.com/511/story/936610.html

I would rather have Mo Pete but if we could unload Nazr, I wouldn't mind having Jaric.

and playing with trades, Sheed, Dice, Flip, Nazr, and Dupree plus a couple of picks (1st this year and a 1st next) for KG and Jaric works money wise. Hmmmmmm.............

What about Jaric is good? I've yet to understand how he has a job.

What about Jaric is good? I've yet to understand how he has a job.



whoa, Marko Jaric's girl is HAWT

http://blacksportsonline.com/images/elisabettacanalis.jpg

I was keen on getting Jaric (with Arnie Kander's seal of approval) back when he was available. Jaric for Nazr would make my day.

He's a tall PG who can defend at the 1/2/3 who actually plays decent defense and can make an open 3. He's not "terrific", but as a backup player, he'd be fine. And yes, his wife is hot hot hot.

VL2mxFV84Jo

Jaric, 28, has been a disappointment since signing a six-year, $38 million contract prior to the 2005-06 season

horrible contract, just horrible for a guy who never averaged 10 ppg


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3429

seems like he can't be effective in 20 min per game, well he won't get much more here so i don't know...better go after Mike James

and btw no way in hell we trade for Jaric's horrible contract if its not for Nazr's sucky contract

Asberry's right. The deal may look good on the surface, but the contract with Jaric's effectiveness is just not justifiable.

Yuck... I don't mind Jaric but that contract is awful. Nazr is a big man signed for the MLE who has played decent.... He gives us what McDyess has for the past few years at the same price yet everyone loves McDyess and dog's Nazr...

He gives us what McDyess has for the past few years at the same price yet everyone loves McDyess and dog's Nazr...
Because McDyess isnt complaining about playing time and nazr is starting while McDyess is coming off the bench among other things. If Nazr was cool with his role and didnt care where he was on this team as long as we won, he'd be more useful. but instead he feels like we owe him starters minutes for bench production(you just made the comparison to Dyess' production). Thats not something we need here IMO. Be an ass, be a whiner, but if you dont produce or havent produced enough to warrant it. Then keep your mouth shut. Or play better to prove it.

nazr does NOT give us what dice does. dice can defend and rebound much better, and he has a better overall offensive game too. once he gets in gear, dice is a much better overall player.

i would trade nazr for jaric in a heartbeat.

then we still have the option of moving davis and flip for someone else down the line.....

Yike. Don't like this trade. I think Nazr can be moved down the line (2 or 3 years from now) with his contract, but I don't think Jaric would be easy to trade. And this is coming from someone who wants to trade Nazr of all the guys left out because dealing him away doesn't entail taking back another expiring deal. If we trade DD or Flip (and maybe Dice) we have to take back an expiring to avoid losing potential money to sign Billups.

I didn't realize how many years Jaric has left on his deal. Ouch. I'm not sure about this trade if it's for Nazr. Any other Piston......NO WAY IN HELL!!!

From what I've seen, Jaric's game is kinda like Delfino's, only with more of a handle (good) and more injury prone at least with the Clippers (bad). He doesn't have a great contract, but he gives us something that we need and it's one year less than Nazr's contract.

Oh, and check this video out. Note there's some Pistons action here as well, with DD, and Kobe copping Rip's "yessir":

tbqnKvuPQG0

joe has liked jaric for a while now though. but i do agree that i don't do the deal unless we dump nazr's deal on them in exchange. it would be a very good tradeoff in that scenario IMO.

and jaric is capable of being better than he has been before. i think this would be an ideal situation for him here.

if joe can pull off this move as well, he is officially back in my good graces. ;)

but he gives us something that we need and it's one year less than Nazr's contract.
yep..is there an option.?

oh and kobe is a thief. two grams of brains=2 hours of good head.

From what I've seen, Jaric's game is kinda like Delfino's, only with more of a handle (good) and more injury prone at least with the Clippers (bad). He doesn't have a great contract, but he gives us something that we need and it's one year less than Nazr's contract.

Oh, and check this video out. Note there's some Pistons action here as well, with DD, and Kobe copping Rip's "yessir":"I wish you two grams of a brain please." LMAO

I don't think Luke was lying about the friends thing either.

I'm against the Jaric/Nazr trade.

Jaric's contract is an albatross, and Nazr's is slightly less albatrostic, and he's 7 feet tall.

I think we can do better, believe it or not.

I'd rather include a 2nd round pick or $3mil cash for a lesser player on a better contract than Jaric.

Jaric's contract is an albatross, and Nazr's is slightly less albatrostic, and he's 7 feet tall.

1.)Nazr is a generous 6ft 10in.

2,) Jaric's contract is slightly shorter, depending on the whether theres an option year it could end up about even as far as being able to rid ourselves of his contract before nazr's(nazr isnt even earning his MLE imo).

3.)i dont think he's amazing, but in exchange for Nazr i dont care. if we can get something better we probably will, but if we can't, then make a move. Because Nazr isnt going to be a happy camper when webber gets here and for all we know he may have asked for a trade. I trust dumars to make sure he leaves room for cbill this offseason, so i'm not gonna try and figure it out for him.

4.) if he is an unhappy camper and talks himself out of playing at all like he did in SA. then we lose even more trade value on him and get true peanuts for him.

Gutz, I'm aware that Jaric's contract is shorter, I just don't think he's reliable or that he can stay healthy.

He's also not very good.

Minny has been sorry that they signed him from day 2 of that deal, maybe the same can be said for Nazr, but I still think he's got more trade value, but only Joe knows that I guess.

Given two players on bad deals, I'll take the center and would rather stash him on the bench until a better deal comes along or use him in garbage time.

That's just me.

If we add a backcourt player, I don't want it to be somebosy that is "passable" at PG.

I wonder how Flip feels about him? I can see him taking minutes from Delfino, too.

he's better then flip murray for sure though. for SURE.

also, i think joe is trying to squeeze one more title out of this roster and someone like yaric could help achieve that IMO. not that he would be a difference maker, but that he fills a definite need to help get the job done. (backup PG)

not to mention, i think he's capable of more in the right situation which i think we could provide...

Gutz, I'm aware that Jaric's contract is shorter, I just don't think he's reliable or that he can stay healthy.
same for Webber, but i have faith in Arnie. You have to be really fucked up for the medicine man not to have the answer.

Also I'm not going to apply anything minny is doing with Jaric to the equation. He didnt fit from the jump and i think he'd fit better here. Much like how tim thomas is useless on the wrong team. On the right one he's a damn good weapon.


I wonder how Flip feels about him? I can see him taking minutes from Delfino, too.
how so? We are in all likelyhood moving flip murray too if we get jaric. so i dont see it that way.

Was he with the 'Wolves while Flip was coach, or did he come in after that?

Nazr for Jaric and a pick or Jaric and McCants.

No way we're dropping a shit contract for a shit contract, IMO.

Was he with the 'Wolves while Flip was coach, or did he come in after that?

Jaric joined the Wolves for the 05-06 season and Flip was already gone by then.

mccants? or a pick? for nazr? that's a pipedream.

why would the wolves give us all that for a bad contract of their own? yaric for nazr is fair and both teams get equal value basically.

there's no way we can get a pick or a very good young prospect in addition. would be nice though!

Jaric might be one of many alternatives Joe's looking into to keep from trading DD whose showed some serious defensve value for us. Now it seems like"trade nazr if i can"

^^HW's right. There would be no reason for them to give us McCants or a pick for Nazr unless Minny's GM is drunk.

Also mccants is on their bench. dont rule him out so easily. of course he's still recovering from a microfracture.

I'd forgive the 2nd rounder they owe us for Dupree and send them Nazr for Mike James.

Hell, I might even consider giving them one of our firsts for James along with Nazr.

If Billups decides to leave or if he gets injured again, then James is a great insurance policy.

Hell, for so many people willing to take on Jaric, I'd still rather have Watson.

Send the Sonics Nazr for Watson and call it good.

Have you seen some of the deals their GM has made? I think him being drunk isn't out of the equation. :)

I'd do Nazr for Watson but they sure as hell won't:

http://blogs.thenewstribune.com/sonics/?title=doesn_t_appear_dale_davis_will_happen&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

Hell, for so many people willing to take on Jaric, I'd still rather have Watson.

Send the Sonics Nazr for Watson and call it good.
basically you're a beggar being choosy. which isnt a luxury joe has. sonics want DD only and dont seem willing to give up watson w/o resistance. We are getting rid of someone, and i think Joe is trying to decide who. so far it looks like nazr may be it.

also mccants is very much an option to throw in if he's healed. especially with foye emerging.

Monday, January 15, 2007

C-Webb in, Nazr out?
It seemed inevitable that one of Detroit's big men would have to be moved, and it appears it's going to be Nazr Mohammed.

Mohammed came about as close as you can come to asking for trade just a few minutes ago.

"I like to be part of what the team is doing on the floor," he said. "So if I'm not in the plans, then yes, I would ask for a trade."

Mohammed's probably not going to play much tonight - or any other nights in the immediate future unless someone gets hurt.

Dumars has made a habit out of moving unhappy players quickly, and I suspect Mohammed will be suiting up for another team very soon.


I'll have more on Mohammed - and of course, C-Webb - in the Booth Newspapers and on mlive.com tomorrow.



Lets get rid of Nazr ASAP, somewhat i am still hoping for Watson or James, time to pull one off Joe

basically you're a beggar being choosy. which isnt a luxury joe has. sonics want DD only and dont seem willing to give up watson w/o resistance. We are getting rid of someone, and i think Joe is trying to decide who. so far it looks like nazr may be it.

also mccants is very much an option to throw in if he's healed. especially with foye emerging.

I just don't see them giving us a backup pg with a crappy contrart AND a young guy with potential for a backup bigman with a crappy contract. Maybe Nazr has a big game against them and we can con a bit more out of them, like a second round draft pick, but I don't see us getting McCants.

McCants had micro-fracture surgery so I doubt Joe will trade for a SG that can't play well for maybe another 12 months and will not be a 100% for up 6-8 months after that. Maybe his isn't as bad as Amare though. But when you consider the Delfino factor the chances of that deal happening are a lot less. At least with MoPete or Wells they can play SF, McCants like Murray can't.

I heard this little rumor it is a 3 way deal coming out of Minny.

Marko to Det

Madsen or Griffin to Hou

Wells to Detroit

Nazr and Murray to Minnesota

McCants had micro-fracture surgery so I doubt Joe will trade for a SG that can't play well for maybe another 12 months and will not be a 100% for up 6-8 months after that. Maybe his isn't as bad as Amare though. But when you consider the Delfino factor the chances of that deal happening are a lot less. At least with MoPete or Wells they can play SF, McCants like Murray can't.

I heard this little rumor it is a 3 way deal coming out of Minny.

Marko to Det

Madsen or Griffin to Hou

Wells to Detroit

Nazr and Murray to Minnesota

That would be INCREDIBLE. I hope there is much truth to that one.

we'd give up murray and nazr for jaric and wells....? no way we get that IMO.

if so, annoint dumars the GM os the year NOW. you figure nazr cancels jaric out, but i don't think murray for wells is fair. and would that even work under the cap? i dont' think so, but i'm not a cap guy.

i wish we would just make a trade already so we can get our team in sync moving forward...

we'd give up murray and nazr for jaric and wells....? no way we get that IMO.

if so, annoint dumars the GM os the year NOW. you figure nazr cancels jaric out, but i don't think murray for wells is fair. and would that even work under the cap? i dont' think so, but i'm not a cap guy.

i wish we would just make a trade already so we can get our team in sync moving forward...
its not that big a deal in a 3 way trade. everybody is getting what they want with fewer people feeling ripped off.

Houston gets to dump wells and get a big man.
detroit gets a pg and true SF to finally put delfino permanently at SG w/o playing against guys way bigger than him. And Minny gets more fire power on offense and the guy they wanted(nazr)

At this point Wells is not fitting in with Houston, I think a lot people see Wells name and assume he is going to be costly. He is a luxury on the Rockets , and the one hole in their roster is size which Madsen or Griffin could fill.

Right now the Rockets only healthy C is Deke and he is almost 41. I read a report saying that doctors don't think Yao will be ready much before 3/11. Not only are the without a C they have only one true PF and that is Howard; so they are more than willing to move Wells for some front court depth.

Putting Wells in perspective for the year; I don't think too many people know Bonzi hasn't even taken a 100 shots this season (82) or scored a total of 100 points (75), he hasn't hit a three (0-4) and only played in 11 games even when healthy he has been a DNP.

Do we REALLY want to put Bonzi and Sheed together, though? I don't think Bonzi would be a good influence on him at all.

At least in Portland, that was a disaster.

Not to mention, we'd have a lot of guys playing for contracts that might not want to sacrifice for the team.

Do we REALLY want to put Bonzi and Sheed together, though? I don't think Bonzi would be a good influence on him at all.

At least in Portland, that was a disaster.

Not to mention, we'd have a lot of guys playing for contracts that might not want to sacrifice for the team.

I understand the worries about chemistry, selfishness and guys losing focus, None of that is appealing, so I hesitate to say Bonzi should come here. As I said in a previous post my reason for liking Bonzi has everything to do with his ability to rebound. Our second team has a habit of giving away leads or close contests by taking bad shots and not rebounding. So to me that is a huge selling point. I mean if my choices were Danny Fortson or Juwan Howard or SAR for example I would rather add the guy who gets me rebounds and second chance points rather than the better offensive guy.

In this case we need guys in a long playoff series who can get us second chances and cut down on opponent possessions. Bonzi is more of that player than McCants, Murray, MoPete or Jaric.

Not to mention, we'd have a lot of guys playing for contracts that might not want to sacrifice for the team.
no just two guys doing that. and hopefully we'll trade them both as we acquire bonzi.

As far as Webber, sheed, and wells causing trouble? i highly doubt it. that portland locker room was led by and surrounded by hotheads and bad leaders. I dont see the same scenario for us with Rip, Billups, and Tay as captains. If this team implodes, i dont think Bonzi will be the one to cause it. If we even get him. Again i think Joe is feeling his way out out see whats available.

Bonzi is more of that player than McCants, Murray, MoPete or Jaric.
He has a corliss williamson/Al Harrington element of posting up and scoring down there.

On a side note, i know everyone here is in denial. but we need to stack up to keep up with the bulls who are hot as can be now and looking fairly strong chemistry wise. bonzi/delfino/maxiell/dyess/Jaric(and/or hunter depending on the scenario) is a potent bench and a ten man rotation that could rumble with the 2004 bench.

With that said i doubt we get all that. But we'll see what Joe is cooking up. Webber is his "sheed" pick up. now he's looking for his "mike james" like extra pick up to strengthen the bench. I'm satisfied with any player better than flip and nazr. even if its slightly better.

If this trade for Jaric happens, please shoot me.

The Webber signing will not look so good.

his contract is shit and his play isnt that great. Better than Murray...but not by much.

I'm with Glenn, keep Nazr over Jaric

What worries me about losing Nazr is the cupboards could get bare quick. I mean Dice, Webber, and DD all can walk, and if we trade away Nazr we are left with Max and Sheed.

As for Jaric I think he is underrated but overpaid, which is not his fault.

What I mean by that is people see his bloated deal and look at his production and see a bad player or underachiever. However if he were making 2-4.5 million people would see him as a steal. Marko is a very good defender and open court player, but has been hurt by being a hybrid player. He is undefinable beyond he is a utility player who does several things good, nothing great and as a result gets moved in and out of the lineup. Also Marko has never been on an overly talented team, where he can thrive. He has always been on bad teams where he was counted on too much, which is not him.

www.FreeMarko.com

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/sports/16468177.htm


Rolling Wolves could get help
Jaric could be dealt for center Mohammed

BY RICK ALONZO
Pioneer Press

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. — The Timberwolves have found new life in 2007. And they might be closing in on finding another inside presence to help Kevin Garnett.

The Wolves, who improved to 7-1 in January with a 94-90 overtime victory over the Detroit Pistons on Monday, are involved in discussions that could send Marko Jaric to the Pistons. Detroit center Nazr Mohammed is emerging as the leading candidate in a possible trade.

Both players have similarly long contracts — four more years remaining, with Jaric owed $27 million and Mohammed $25 million — and are a good match under the NBA's rules that require the salaries be similar.

The Pistons finally got the confirmation they were looking for from free agent Chris Webber, who said Monday he will sign with Detroit after he clears waivers today. Webber's arrival could mean less playing time for Mohammed.

Mohammed was pulled from the starting lineup last week and doesn't want to stick around if the addition of Webber means a more-reduced role for him off the bench. He signed with Detroit last summer as the replacement for Ben Wallace, who left for Chicago.

"I'm not the type of guy that can sit on the bench happy," Mohammed told the Associated Press. "I came here to play. If I'm not in the plan, I would ask for a trade."

Webber got a standing ovation when he walked into The Palace of Auburn Hills from the fans of his hometown Pistons. They understand the Pistons need more help.

Whether Wolves fans will have any new additions to cheer in the coming days remains to be seen. The Pistons see Jaric as a player who could provide an effective player in several roles, including backup point guard.

Detroit is 3-5 during the eight-game absence of guard Chauncey Billups, out with a strained right calf. At 6 feet 7, Jaric also can play shooting guard and small forward.

Whether a trade is consummated — a source said Saturday that Jaric is unhappy and asked to be moved — Jaric's future with the team clearly is in doubt.

The Wolves are overloaded at guard , even without injured Rashad McCants, who could return this season. And Jaric hasn't lived up to expectations since arriving in Minnesota before the 2005-06 season with a six-year, $38 million contract in a sign-and-trade deal with the Los Angeles Clippers.

Jaric didn't play against Detroit, the third consecutive game he has missed with a sprained right thumb. Wolves coach Dwane Casey said before the game that Jaric isn't being held out to let the guard get healthy for trade purposes.

"Believe me, if Marko could help us play today, he'd be backing up Trenton (Hassell) and back in his rotation spot," Casey said. "I'm just going on what Marko says. He says he's hurt. Believe me, if he was healthy, he'd be playing."

The Wolves got by just fine without him against Detroit in another overtime thriller.

Minnesota seemingly found a way to lose every close game last season. Now the team is finding ways to win, even as Jaric trade speculation swirls.

The Wolves have won 10 of their past 13 games and have climbed within three games of Northwest Division leader Utah. The Wolves are 4-0 in overtime this season, with all of the victories coming this month.

This latest victory came with three players making three-pointers in overtime, including center Mark Blount's shot from the corner with 12.8 seconds remaining to make it 92-88.

"This is a great stretch," guard Ricky Davis said. "Early in the year we won a few in a row and then went backward. But this shows experience. Guys are learning and starting to play together."

This latest victory even came against a team that wasn't at full strength, which earlier this season had been a sure recipe for a loss. The Pistons were without Billups and didn't yet have Webber, two players who figure to be in the starting lineup Friday at Target Center.

The Wolves opened a 33-22 lead early in the second quarter Monday. But then Detroit got back in the mix with a 17-1 run that gave the Pistons a five-point lead. From there, it was a close game the rest of the way. Detroit's Richard Hamilton missed a shot at the buzzer in regulation that would have won it.

But in overtime, rookie Randy Foye, who admittedly didn't play his best game with four turnovers , hit two big jumpers, including a three-pointer with 3:17 left that put Minnesota ahead 87-82.

Hamilton made two free throws with 10.3 seconds left to cut Minnesota's lead to 92-90. Garnett was fouled to stop the clock, and he made two free throws with 4.3 seconds left to seal the victory.

I would trade for Jaric, but ONLY if Nazr is the one going. Otherwise I am not touching that contract. Also, I would prefer a deal for Watson, James or another better PG IF we can pull that off. I would also send Flip out for a bag of chips.

How can we possibly hold on to Nazr when he said he's going to demand a trade if he doesn't get PT? He already doesn't get PT, and we didn't bring Webber here to sit the whole game. How will we be able to move Nazr later with that contract when he demands a trade? We all know how hard it is to deal players that demand a trade...imagine when you factor in his bad contract too.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070116/SPORTS03/701160400/1051\


Goodbye, big men: Six is one too many

January 16, 2007

BY KRISTA JAHNKE and CHRIS SILVA
FREE PRESS SPORTS WRITERS

The Pistons took step one toward reworking their roster when forward Chris Webber announced Monday he would sign with the team.

Now comes step two. Before the end of the week, the Pistons likely will complete a trade that will exchange one of their big men for a perimeter player, ideally someone who can play both guard positions.

They don't have to move anyone, as the roster is at the limit of 15. But there won't be enough frontcourt minutes for six capable big men.

"We've got a lot of them," coach Flip Saunders said, "there's no question."

A team source confirmed the Pistons have talked with the Timberwolves, who are shopping backup point guard Marko Jaric, among other teams. Jaric is out with a sprained thumb and did not play in Monday's win over the Pistons at the Palace.

The source said the Pistons will listen to offers for any of their non-starting big men -- Nazr Mohammed, Antonio McDyess, Dale Davis and Jason Maxiell.

They'll get many. Big men are hot commodities in the NBA, so the Pistons have the luxury of making a deal that suits them best.

It's unlikely they would trade Maxiell, who offers the most upside and has a low-paying contract that would make any deal more complicated. But the other three are possibilities.

Mohammed is the most likely candidate to move. Brought in last summer for $30 million to be a starting center, he is now a bench player and unhappy about the way the team handled the demotion.

"They haven't said much to me," Mohammed said Monday. "I would have appreciated (Saunders) saying something to me, at least when he took me out of the lineup. But he didn't say nothing to me then.

"I thought when you're a starter and you start 30-something games in, the coach would come to you and say, 'Hey, we've found something new.' He would have done that for anybody else on this team."

Mohammed said he will ask for a trade if his role decreases to the point at which he isn't a steady contributor.

"I'm not that type of guy who can sit on the bench happily," Mohammed said. "I came here to play. I'd be sitting here lying to say if I didn't play, I'd just sit and be happy. No. I love the guys in this locker room, they're a good group of guys, good coaching staff, but I'm not the type of guy who's just going to sit on the bench and be content with that.

"I'd like to at least be part of what the team is doing on the floor. If I'm not in the plans, then yeah, I would ask for a trade."

Some Minnesota media outlets have reported that Jaric has requested a trade; others refute that. It is clear, however, that he is not happy with his reduced role as a reserve.

"I want to really put it behind me," Jaric said Monday when asked about the trade rumors. "It's important to me and my team that we're winning right now, we're playing good, and like I said, how I personally feel, I don't want that to go in the newspaper. I did hear a rumor about being traded to Detroit, but honestly, I'm not going to comment on that."

The Pistons have confirmed that they've spoken to Toronto about the availability of former Michigan State star Morris Peterson and reportedly have contacted Houston regarding Bonzi Wells. And Seattle SuperSonics coach Bob Hill told local reporters that Davis, a veteran with an expiring contract and solid defensive skills, would be a great fit for his team.

WTF is it with coaches not talking to players? WTF are they doing the other 23 hours and 12 minutes of the day?

I'm actually beginning to feel bad for Nazr.

He starts for most of the games then suddenly your not starting without anyone saying shit to you.

That could be a reason of the bad chemistry in the lockerroom

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/marty_burns/01/15/webber.reax/1.html


Webber's defense could end up hurting Pistons

Three years ago Pistons GM Joe Dumars took a bold gamble by acquiring the temperamental Rasheed Wallace at the trade deadline. The move paid off huge dividends as 'Sheed behaved himself on the court and helped lead Detroit to the 2004 NBA championship.

Now Dumars is rolling the dice again. Looking to shake up his listless team, he's bringing in veteran power forward Chris Webber. Dumars hopes that Webber's passing and shooting -- and his desire to win a ring before he retires -- can provide the same kind of spark that Wallace did.

But there's only one problem with Dumar's rationale: Webber is no Wallace.

At least not anymore.

Five years ago Webber was one of the best power forwards in the league. He could shoot. He could pass. He could run the floor.

And, yes, he could defend. Or at least move his feet well enough to stay in front of his man.

Now Webber is more like a statue on defense. Ever since undergoing microfracture knee surgery a few years ago, he just has not been able to move laterally. Foes attack Webber with pick-and-rolls, forcing him to come out and move his feet so they can blow past him on the way to the basket.

For the Pistons, a team that prides itself on defense (or at least used to do so), it's a major problem. Detroit already lost Ben Wallace before the season. Now it is taking another step toward ridding itself of its defensive identity.

Ah, you say, but now the Pistons will be better offensively. They will have another passing big man to run Flip Saunders' multiple sets. They will be able to outscore foes on a nightly basis.

Maybe.

Or maybe not.

Webber averaged nearly 20 and 10 last year with Philadelphia, but it was misleading. He gave up that many points on the other end with his poor defense. Meanwhile, his insistence on playing the No. 2 role behind only Allen Iverson took away shots from Andre Iguodala and made the Sixers more predictable.

One Western Conference scout who sees the Sixers regularly as part of his work duties told me last week he'd be surprised if Webber made any impact. "Have you seen him this season? He's been awful," the scout said. "He can't play anymore."

Even if Webber gets rejuvenated before his hometown fans, his arrival creates all sorts of other potential potholes. Where does he play? Whose minutes does he eat up? Will he butt heads with Saunders the way he did with Jim O'Brien and Maurice Cheeks in Philadelphia?

Keep in mind, the Pistons already have looked like a somewhat shaky group this season. In recent weeks Tayshaun Prince has talked about the team's lack of chemistry on the court. Then Wallace began showing up late for practice and was yanked from the starting lineup. Nazr Mohammed, who also lost his starting role, now says he wants to be traded if he's not going to play major minutes.

Imagine what will happen if Webber's arrival doesn't go as planned. Will C-Webb, bright and outspoken, live up to his reputation as a clubhouse lawyer? Will he and 'Sheed begin to tune out Saunders?

Meanwhile, the Pistons are now talking about possibly breaking up their chemistry further by making a trade that would create more playing time for C-Webb. Mohammed and Dale Davis are the likeliest candidates to be dealt, but neither is going to bring back the quality backcourt help the Pistons are seeking. More likely it would require giving up Antonio McDyess, the team's best frontcourt scorer.

When told Monday about rumors that McDyess might be on the trading block, a Bulls starter who shall remain anonymous said that was "crazy." His teammate seated a few feet away echoed the sentiment. Although both said Webber was still a good player, they couldn't believe the Pistons would consider giving up McDyess to make room for him.

Meanwhile, at the other side of the United Center, the Spurs basically had little reaction to the news of Webber's signing.

While Webber originally had put San Antonio on his list of five teams he would consider playing for, the Spurs never appeared to be a serious candidate. For one, coach Gregg Popovich was an assistant to Don Nelson at Golden State when Webber had his celebrated feud with his coach there. For another, the Spurs couldn't really offer him any more money or playing time than he could get in Detroit.

At any rate, San Antonio's coaches and players seemed more worried about a looming ice storm in Texas than they did any looming potential threat from Webber joining the Pistons.

"I don't know what to say," Popovich shrugged when informed of the news. "Yeah, he's a very talented player. ... I think he's a fantastic passer and there are some guys on that team hard to guard who move well without ball. [Rip] Hamilton and Prince are really tough coming off picks, and with Webber out there passing the basketball he's going to find those guys. He can help them offensively a great deal."

"I have no reaction," Michael Finley said. "I haven't really seen Detroit so I can't say."

Robert Horry also said he hadn't seen Detroit enough to say how Webber might help, but he didn't sound as if he was ready to pencil in the Pistons as Eastern Conference champs.

"The thing with Detroit is they're the type of team that if they do have him they could be better but they're going to be good regardless, because they have a great nucleus," he said. "He's a great player. He can adapt to any situation. I think the only team he couldn't play for is Phoenix because they run too much for him. He's not an up-and-down player like he used to be."

Horry is being too kind. Webber has lost more than his ability to get up and down the floor. He has lost his explosiveness and his defensive mobility.

He might be able to help the Pistons, but he just as likely will have the same effect he had on the Sixers. It's worth remembering that at the time of Webber's trade to Philadelphia, many pundits were hailing the move as a great one for the Sixers. Iverson was finally going to have the second scorer he needed, they said.

We all know how it turned out. The big difference, of course, is that Dumars isn't investing too much in this deal. For the veteran's minimum ($1.2 million, pro-rated), Webber is at least a low-cost risk. But if the Pistons wind up losing McDyess or their chemistry in the process of trying to make C-Webb fit, they will be sorry.

What worries me about losing Nazr is the cupboards could get bare quick. I mean Dice, Webber, and DD all can walk, and if we trade away Nazr we are left with Max and Sheed.


Well hopefully one of our two draft picks will be used on a big man. McDyess could easily pick up the option on his contract if he's happy here. The amount he's making isn't going to change all that much, just the number of years. Maybe Sheed becomes our starting center and Maxiell becomes our starting PF. McDyess (if he stays around), and hopefully a draft pick will be the backups and we can sign a couple guys with the MLE like the Spurs did this year, like we SHOULD have this year. Maybe if DD doesn't want to retire and we don't trade him this year he'll want to resign with us too. He seems to like the team and the atmosphere and he's a solid defensive backup that brings a hard-nosed mentality.

I doubt they trade McDyess. Everyone loves him way too much. Nzr is fine, I'd rather not see DD go, but I'd be pissed if they traded McDyess.

I think that's a legitimate worry, and I'd be more upset if the team wasn't already heading in a pussy direction (pussy direction = an "offensive oriented" team which is just a buzzword for saying your defense sucks).
As it stands I'm just happy there's some excitement in the air.

"Bulls starter to remain anonymous" = Ben?

The question mark isn't necessary.

I'd rather move Stonehand McFouls before moving the Dice-Man.

I think we have to keep Dyess here to give him a shot at that ring. It would be a big time dick move to trade him away instead of Nazr. Even if Webber proves to be more ineffective than we are anticipating, then we could theoretically push Dyess up to starting PF and Sheed at the C, in turn opening up more bench minutes for Max if Webber's entirely ineffective. Additionally, I don't want to see Nazr here for the next few years.

Here's a list of guys that I would rather target (using Nazr) than Jaric.

Not all of them make good sense for the other team, but they all have similar salaries for this year, and most of them have 3-4 years left on their deals, making them decent fits, contract-wise.

Brevin Knight
Eduardo Najera
Rafer Alston
Mike James
Bobby Jackson
Hedo Turkoglu
Earl Watson
MoPete
Antonio Daniels

I think it's hilarious how that last article paints the Webber move as a big gamble. They brought in a guy for the minimum and put him in an empty roster spot. Risky business there. As a follow up, they may trade Nazr, a guy who has been basically worthless for something they can use.

That's not exactly betting the rent money on red at ceasar's.

Here's a list of guys that I would rather target (using Nazr) than Jaric.

Not all of them make good sense for the other team, but they all have similar salaries for this year, and most of them have 3-4 years left on their deals, making them decent fits, contract-wise.

Brevin Knight
Eduardo Najera
Rafer Alston
Mike James
Bobby Jackson
Hedo Turkoglu
Earl Watson
MoPete
Antonio Daniels

I like Knight, James and Watson. Najera, Turk and Mo Pete are not PGs, which I think we need the most (I am finding it hard to even watch the Pistons when Murray is playing PG). Alston and Daniels are a similar mold as Murray (SG's in PG bodies). Jackson is hurt all the time.

My ideal player would be a defensive minded PG that can pass well. I think we already added the scoring punch we needed with Webber. I just want someone to stop dribble penetration.

send the list to Joe and be prepared for the "trades are a two way street" reply with a fuck off at the end. Shit i'd trade Nazr for KG if i could. but its not gonna happen.

That wasn't exactly a list of all stars, Gutz.

Who's exaggerating now?

I think all of those guys are in the same ballpark as Nazr value-wise, especially if some cash or a pick is added.

I think the Webber move was nice for Joe D, it could be a coup. But to me, the next move he makes is going to be the most important.

I think we have to move Nazr and keep Dyess. Dyess never whines and is the perfect sixth man. Nazr wants out and bitches about PT. Chemistry wise, it's a no brainer. Output wise, they are both pretty solid and make similar money (Dyess is less years though).

Here's a list of guys that I would rather target (using Nazr) than Jaric.

Not all of them make good sense for the other team, but they all have similar salaries for this year, and most of them have 3-4 years left on their deals, making them decent fits, contract-wise.

Brevin Knight
Eduardo Najera
Rafer Alston
Mike James
Bobby Jackson
Hedo Turkoglu
Earl Watson
MoPete
Antonio Daniels

Glenn = Chris McCosky? And I'm proud of the restraint you showed putting E-dub almost last.

Kstats on other boards talking about a Damien Wilkins trade. I'm a fan of the young Wilkins and would be happy to get him out of our big man depth.

As far as the order, I just went team by team looking at salaries.

Charlotte
Denver
Houston
Minny
NO
Orl
Sea
Tor
Was

If I were prioritizing them, I'd say

Watson
Knight
James
Daniels
Jackson
MoPete
Alston
Turk/Najera (Both are extremely versatile, could back up Tay and pitch in at a few other areas. Najera is a fan favorite wherever he goes because he works his ass off. He'd be great here. Turkoglu is 6'10" and can play almost anywhere on the floor, and Flip would love him).

This list is by no means a be-all-end-all, these are just guys that I like better than Jaric, who I don't like as a PG (or any other position) anyhow. They all have similar salaries as well (all pretty much MLE talent). I suppose I should have added KG to appease Gutz, too.


NOTE: If I had Insider access, I'd post the PERs for each of these guys.

Kstats on other boards talking about a Damien Wilkins trade. I'm a fan of the young Wilkins and would be happy to get him out of our big man depth.
The Wilkins rumor comes from the Seattle paper a few days ago. http://wtfdetroit.com/forums/showpost.php?p=152293&postcount=49

i'm not sure about wilkins for dale davis str8 up. the sonics want davis bad and Nazr wants out. DD provides defense that we are gonna need some nights much like hunter.. We'd might have to shop a wing player with nazr for another big which i dont know about.

Output wise, they are both pretty solid and make similar money (Dyess is less years though).
When it counts I know Dyess is gonna lay it on the line for us with no gripes and in pain too. Not to mention odds are his numbers are gonna improve like they always do later in the season. You dont trade away your warriors(DD Dyess), you trade away your shallow whiners(murray, Nazr).

^ GG i agree with you 100%.

Mohammed, in the first year of a five-year, $30 million contract, might be the player the Pistons try to move first. He made it clear before Monday's game if he didn't have a role, he would ask to be moved to a baby crib.

"I vant to play," said Mohammed, who recently lost his starting spot to Davis. "I'd be lying if I said I would just sit over there and not cry my eyes out if I wasn't playing.

"If I am not in the plans, I would cry for a trade."

Mohammed was upset like a 3 year old by the way he was pulled out of the starting lineup -- he was told Davis was starting minutes before last Friday's game in Atlanta.

"I would have appreciated them saying something to me when they pulled me out of the starting lineup," Mohammed said. "He (coach Flip Saunders ) didn't say nothing to me. I was really (upset in tears) about that."

Saunders said he won't make any decisions about the rotation until Webber gets acclimated.

"These guys are all professional, they've all been through this," Saunders said. "They understand the business of this thing. The bottom line is Nazr is a punk bitch."

Knick fan.

It kills me to watch their games, but I still do, just about every one. As far as I am concerned I think Marbury is fucking them up the most. He came out talking how he wants to be judged by wins not points and he's the best point guard in the NBA. Man, this guy gives up on 9 out of 10 defensive plays and always has a look for his teammates when HIS man beats him and scores. Ya know cause it's their fault he can't defend. Besides that, Tim Thomas must go. He teases every once in awhile but he is just not that good. Nazr Mohammed sucks. He always gets into early foul trouble and has gone downhill since his double-double games early on in the season. I love Kurt Thomas, definetly the most underrated Knick player. He does all the dirty work with setting screens and fighting for rebounds. He is also their best defender and has that pretty baseline jumper. Unfortunately he is getting old and I think Sweetney is going to be nasty in a few years. Only other bright spots I see is Trevor Ariza and Jamal Crawford. I think Ariza is going to be something special and Crawford is their best player, although he needs to defend better. The problem, of course, is their salary situation. Allan Houston is done, Hardaway at least will be a free agent next year and Marbury who makes a ton of money and can't play a team game. Also gotta mention Jerome Williams. I think his intensity is incredible. I don't think Isiah will be able to do anything any time soon, but I'm sure he will make moves for more overpaid subpar players in the future. But hey, I will always be a true fan and continue to root for my team, no matter what.

Nice edit Guts. I like doing it on the sly sometimes as well.

The Pistons are also looking for another perimeter player, having been foiled in their attempts to land Houston's Bonzi Wells and Toronto's Morris Peterson. Jaric's contract has one year less to run than Mohammed's in same price bracket, so the teams would be swapping problems if this trade goes through.

Jaric is openly eager to leave town after two seasons of major struggle following a controversial trade with the Clippers that cost Minnesota a future first-round draft pick in addition to Kevin Garnett-favorite Sam Cassell. The Wolves have also been looking for more size up front in support of Garnett and a rejuvenated Mark Blount.

No trade can be consummated before Tuesday at the earliest.

As far as I can tell, the part that you put in bold is factually incorrect.

Jaric signed for 6 years in 2005, and Nazr signed for 5 years in 2006.

Both are free agents in 2011, with the only difference being a team option on Nazr's contract for an additinal year (like anybody is going to pick that up when he is 34 or 35 years old).

In other words, they both have the same amount of time left on their deals.

As far as I can tell, the part that you put in bold is factually incorrect.

Jaric signed for 6 years in 2005, and Nazr signed for 5 years in 2006.

Both are free agents in 2011, with the only difference being a team option on Nazr's contract for an additinal year (like anybody is going to pick that up when he is 34 or 35 years old).

In other words, they both have the same amount of time left on their deals.


Actually, I take that back. According to the Storytellers site, Nazr's team option is in the 10-11 season, meaning his deal actually expires one year before Jaric's.

How do these reporters still have jobs?

This makes me hate this rumored Jaric deal even more. No way should Joe do this.

Glenn, out of curiosity, would you do that three way deal involving us trading Nazr and Flip for Jaric and Wells?

Glenn, out of curiosity, would you do that three way deal involving us trading Nazr and Flip for Jaric and Wells?

My inital thought is no.

We take on Jaric's longer, bad contract, and Bonzi does some of the things that we would want Jaric for anyways (back up SF and SG), not to mention that Bonzi would probably leave after the season for someone's MLE. And he might be a headache.

Show me what you think FlipSr's rotation would look like and I might reconsider, but I don't think so.

I'd still rather send Nazr/Flip plus a 2nd and/or cash to Seattle for Earl Watson and sign Jalen Rose once he is bought out.

Thanks for caring enough about my opinion to ask, e-ray.

Dale Davis and Dice need to stay. These are the type of players who will run through brick walls in the playoffs. Nazr needs to go. I'll take a bad contract in return. Just get rid of him.

This makes me hate this rumored Jaric deal even more. No way should Joe do this.
even if he holds Jaric in higher opinion than you and thinks his defense, height, and 3 point shooting makes him the pg he was always looking for to replace hunter? The pg that he was hoping that useless pg we drafted last year was? I think Joe D has and still does have interest in Jaric's attributes and sees the issues he's having with teams trying to make him a hybrid as similar to billups having the same issue before he got here.

Of course I ask you this, are we worse off with Jaric vs Nazr overall? Contract aside you dont think its better to have atleast something for Nazr rather than have him stink up the locker room with his whining?


Bonzi does some of the things that we would want Jaric for anyways (back up SF and SG)
i think if we bring in Jaric he's for the most part playing PG. theres really no reason to take him out of that.

even if he holds Jaric in higher opinion than you and thinks his defense, height, and 3 point shooting makes him the pg he was always looking for to replace hunter? The pg that he was hoping that useless pg we drafted last year was? I think Joe D has and still does have interest in Jaric's attributes and sees the issues he's having with teams trying to make him a hybrid as similar to billups having the same issue before he got here.

Of course I ask you this, are we worse off with Jaric vs Nazr overall? Contract aside you dont think its better to have atleast something for Nazr rather than have him stink up the locker room with his whining?

i think if we bring in Jaric he's for the most part playing PG. theres really no reason to take him out of that.


I don't think that Jaric is the PG that anybody has "always been looking for".

You can say "contracts aside" but do you think Bill Davidson doesn't care about contracts?

From what I've seen of Jaric, I'd much rather have Delfino playing PG.

If we made a mistake signing Nazr, we'd be compounding it taking on Jaric for a year longer at a higher salary, no less.

Yeah, I can't see Jaric playing anything but PG here either. He's not outplaying Delfino, that is for sure (granted he hasn't played with our players either). I doubt his defense is as good on swingmen either. he's not my first choice for PG's, but it's clear that Nazr is going to be a bigger albatross than Jaric is/was in Minny...and all we need him for anyway is 15 MPG to backup Chauncy.

I don't think that Jaric is the PG that anybody has "always been looking for".

You can say "contracts aside" but do you think Bill Davidson doesn't care about contracts?

From what I've seen of Jaric, I'd much rather have Delfino playing PG.

If we made a mistake signing Nazr, we'd be compounding it taking on Jaric for a year longer at a higher salary, no less.

actually, I've been saying that for weeks on here. i'd rather see Nazr go for a swingman IF we can't get a Watson/Knight type PG and play Delfino at PG. Flip mentioned he'd like to try Delfino at PG too, but that he didn't have enough practice days to impliment it. Now he probably won't with our PG's back (unless we get a swingman that is).

If we can't add a solid true back up point (Watson/Knight) or a significant upgrade at SF (Peterson/Rose/etc) to backup Tay (moving Delfino to backup PG) then I'd rather put Nazr on ice and try to get more for him at the trade deadline.

I agree. If moving Nazr doesn't get us a player better than Flip there isn't a point to moving him at all right now. I think he has more value on the open market than Jaric (because of his size), but if Joe really thinks jaric will improve this team than I guess we should do the deal. I'd like to think we can be patient now though with Hunter and Billups coming back.

The pg that he was hoping that useless pg we drafted last year was?
Dumars didn't think he would be that type of PG right out of the gates. He's not stupid. He was drafted with the LAST pick in the draft! In a year or so he can possibly develop into a solid backup, but I have a hard time believing that anyone in the Pistons organization thought he would come in here and do it this year.

Jaric is apparently in the rear view for now. The Pistons like him but don't like his contract, which i understand to a point. What I mean by that is if a guy can help the team then he can help, if he can't move on. To say no based on money is why our bench is hurting in the first place.

And the extra year on Jaric's deal shouldn't even be a factor IMO. It's so far away that no one knows what the roster will look like then.

BTW, I'm not that enamoured with Watson after looking at his numbers this year. Maybe a change of seniery would help, but he's shooting %35 from the floor. Ouch.

and 29% this month.

Like I've been saying, the Jaric move is definitely a bad one. I don't see him improving this team, and the longer each player goes in their contract, Nazr gets more valuable to others and Jaric gets less. We can get more for a solid, albeit foul-prone, big man. I consider Nazr an above average big man, not a lot above average, but still has a decent skill set.

BTW, I'm not that enamoured with Watson after looking at his numbers this year. Maybe a change of seniery would help, but he's shooting %35 from the floor. Ouch.

But he's one of the best in the league at stopping dribble penetration.

With all of the shooters on this team, he'd get a lot more open looks than he's getting in Seattle (especially without Lewis and Allen for a lot of the year).

I'm not worried about his offense at all if he can set up our guys with good shots and stop penetration.

glenn you're flowing off man crush now.

Maybe.

I think of him as a younger Lindsey Hunter, only Watson is a playmaker too.

no he isnt. thats what people are trying to say to you, that he isnt. he's another hunter type(though i think hunter is better on defense), but on offense playmaker is a generous term.

BTW, I'm not that enamoured with Watson after looking at his numbers this year. Maybe a change of seniery would help, but he's shooting %35 from the floor. Ouch.


The endless seattle injuries are hurting Watson's game. He has had to shoulder a lot more of the offense without Allen and Lewis. When you look at his career when he is the 4th or 5th option he is a great player to have on your team. However when he is forced into the offense, he takes bad shots, his defense suffers becase of his extra offensive duties, and doesn't look for others because they are looking for him to shoot.

If you added Watson to the bench or even to our starting lineup with Chauncey out, everyone would be calling Joe a genius for the steal of the year.

One of the most overlooked aspect of judging players is the context of their situation. Jaric and Watson are great role players but when they are asked to do more they become exposed and called over rated or bad. Plus their contracts are not easy to swallow. Look at Mike James he was no big deal he showed his stuff on a great team and changed his label. Mike James was a throw in, but being around great players he found his niche and confidence. However if Jmaes would have had Marko's deal people would have loathed it at first.To me Marko and Watson on their own are nothing great but on a deep team could be as impactful and important as James.

I was playing around on Real Gm's trade checker and came across this trade:

Detroit trades Sheed, DD, Dupree, and Flip Murray (and maybe a pick)

New York trades Francis, Lee, and Channing

Ney York has long coveted Sheed and has wanted to get rid of Francis in the worst way.

Detroit gets their (overpaid) back-up PG and SG but Francis would give us an awesome 3 guard rotation. We get Lee and Channing to get younger and more athletic.

What do ya think??

I was playing around on Real Gm's trade checker and came across this trade:

Detroit trades Sheed, DD, Dupree, and Flip Murray (and maybe a pick)

New York trades Francis, Lee, and Channing

Ney York has long coveted Sheed and has wanted to get rid of Francis in the worst way.

Detroit gets their (overpaid) back-up PG and SG but Francis would give us an awesome 3 guard rotation. We get Lee and Channing to get younger and more athletic.

What do ya think??


I think rehab might be your best option.

lol@awesome 3 guard rotation. [smilie=peepwall.gi:

LOL@ NY giving two of their brightest young stars for garbage.

LOL@ real gm

Jim (Det): Chad, this may seem like a really dumb question, but would the Pistons actually consider trading Rasheed Wallace? He obviously has some issues with Flip, he's played terribly the last month and he's consistently gotten T'd up late in close games. If he were on the block, what could the Pistons get for him?

http://espn-ak.starwave.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: (12:18 PM ET ) I think the problem is ... what could they get for him? Sheed's age, his contract and the fact that he's regressing back to his moody, inconsistent ways probably mean that GMs aren't burning up the phone lines to get him.

To me, the biggest disappointment for the Pistons the last year and half has been Flip Saunders. He was known as a player coach, but he overplayed his starters last year, didn't play Darko, forcing a trade, and hasn't played Nazr Mohammed despite a very respectable PER and no he and Sheed are feuding.

I think the Pistons have another deal up their sleeve and while I'm sure everyone was wishing it was Sheed, more likely it's Mohammed.

Nuno (Lisbon, Portugal): Rasheed Wallace to Chicago for PJ Brown. The Pistons get cap to re-sign Chauncey Billups and avoid the luxury tax, and the Bulls get a PF who played well with Big Ben and has a nice outside shooting. What do you think?

http://espn-ak.starwave.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: (12:20 PM ET ) Great deal for the Pistons if it happened ... but I can't see Paxson and Skiles wanting to add Sheed to this young team and I can't see Sheed and Skiles getting along. One team that might go for Sheed? Philly. Larry Brown loves him. If Pistons would take back Sammy Dalembert ... maybe.

Chad Fraud read my post from earlier I think. And how is Sheed for PJ Brown a good deal for us? I can't wait to have DD and Brown down low. lol

I'm sure PJs PER is top 5 in the league.

Holy shit, Chad Ford is STILL bitter at us for not playing Darko?

And why would we break up sheed-webber for webber-dalembert?

cause we're trying to copy the sixers and billy king.......?

basically, we lost to utah by 1 point last night, so the entire experiment is a massive failure and everyone needs to be traded.

I think Injuries are affecting Sheed more than he wants to admit and it is hurting his attitude and creating rifts.

The team needs to get the roster in order and the rotation set once that happens we will be on the right track. Right now Flip is trying to be a hard ass and he is trying to take contro but it is coming across wrong.

For example I wouldn't have shoved my foot up Nazr's ass without knowing when he will be traded.

i would have. which i guess is the point since i'm not a coach..:mccosky: lol

i would have. which i guess is the point since i'm not a coach..:mccosky: lol

I get trying to motivate him but I don't think I would bench all game long. What happends if we can't work out a trade? Worse yet what if we need him next year because everyone walked? That is my only point, because I seen what happened when the Wings gave the finger to CuJo then really needed him.

Holy shit, Chad Ford is STILL bitter at us for not playing Darko?

And why would we break up sheed-webber for webber-dalembert?

i love how Ford's quote makes it sound like Flip Saunders drove Darko out of town. whatta douchebag.

i love how Ford's quote makes it sound like Flip Saunders drove Darko out of town. whatta douchebag.

Ford is still bitter about Darko, and Detroit punking out after Ford he made his name on the Serbian Slug. Darko's late season play redeemed Ford's re or so he thought until this season started.

Nazr is backing down from his play me or trade me stance.

http://www.mlive.com/pistons/stories/index.ssf?/base/sports-2/116917080297480.xml&coll=1

Also I get the impression from the ASB blog entry about Sheed vs. Chris Sheridan, the team may rally around that to show there isn't a real problem.

Trade Nazr to Golden State for Pietrus and Zarko. Give them whatever picks necessary.

Bitches read my post.


Warriors seek services of Pistons' Mohammed
Harrington, Jackson will shore up defense
OAKLAND - The Warriors are discussing a trade with the Detroit Pistons involving center Nazr Mohammed, a person familiar with the talks confirmed on condition of anonymity.

Mohammed reportedly has been on the market for some time as the Pistons are looking for perimeter help, especially a backup point guard. Mohammed is expected to be removed from the regular rotation now that the Pistons have signed Chris Webber.

The source said Detroit has inquired about Warriors combo guard Monta Ellis, recently acquired point guard Sarunas Jasikevicius, swingman Mickael Pietrus and forward Matt Barnes.

According to the Detroit News, the Pistons also have offered Mohammed for Minnesota's Marko Jaric, Toronto's Mo Peterson and Houston's Bonzi Wells.

The Warriors need inside help now that forwards Troy Murphy and Ike Diogu play for Indiana. Adonal Foyle is the only true big man remaining behind starting center Andris Biedrins.

However, the Warriors might not be willing to absorb Mohammed's contract, which has four years and $25 million remaining after this season, or part with one of their perimeter players just yet. Warriors executive vice president of basketball operations Chris Mullin said Wednesday he wants to use the month or so remaining before the Feb. 22 trade deadline to evaluate his new roster.

Trade Nazr to Golden State for Pietrus and Zarko. Give them whatever picks necessary.
Why the fuck would we give them whatever picks necessary for a rental player? Everyone keeps forgetting that Pietrus is on the last year of his deal. There's no guarantee that we'll keep him beyond this year. Maybe if it was just Pietrus and Zarko for Nazr (even though that wouldn't work because we have a full roster right now) then I would do it, but I'm not tossing whatever picks they want in with it. Pietrus, Zarko, and Ellis for Nazr and a future first I would do, but again, we don't have the roster space, so we'd have to be dealing Flip for a pick or something like that. Maybe find a team willing to deal out a later first round pick in the future for Flip and do a three team deal.

Maybe we can get Zarko from GSW, Marko from Minny and then go after Darko in free agency?

Pistons commander Joe Dumars wisely announced he had no intention of trading Antonio McDyess or Jason Maxiell, thus silencing counterfeit reports they could be had. Clearly, Nazr Mohammed is being shopped, as is Dale Davis, but the player they're looking to lose is Flip Murray, who somehow ticked off Flip Saunders.

Does FlipM charging into defenders like he's bowling with a ping-pong ball actually piss off Flip Saunders?! Maybe there is hope.

Maybe we can get Zarko from GSW, Marko from Minny and then go after Darko in free agency?

Then, of course, bring back Zeljiko to round out the KO Quartet.

Maybe Meadowlarko Lemon could perfom at halftime?

what happened to Ratko?

what happened to Ratko?
Eastern European mafia hitman, mayhaps?

Joe recently dispelled that he would trade Jmax or Dice (link available on request).... So it's either Nazr and/or Flip Jr.

Joe recently dispelled that he would trade Jmax or Dice (link available on request).... So it's either Nazr and/or Flip Jr.
and/or DD :(

Daily Dime


Sunday's Worst
Wolves guard Marco Jaric: First, the good news: Jaric overcame his bum thumb and played 32 minutes, the most he has in 2007, and his first time off the pine (OK, padded metal chair) in five games. Bad news: the possible Piston misses his three field goal attempts en route to a one-point performance.

32 minutes, 1 point

I'll take Nazr, thank you.

if he scored 20 in his first game back from an injured thumb you wouldnt have posted a thing. And Nazr's last performance wasn't much better.

if he scored 20 in his first game back from an injured thumb you wouldnt have posted a thing. And Nazr's last performance wasn't much better.

So by that logic, I should have just ignored this and tried to convince myself that it didn't happen. In fact, I'm sure he'd be a great addition to our bench!

Sounds sooper!!

I wonder if Nazr would score 1 point in 32 minutes? Wait, no I don't. We need to trade Nazr ASAP and get whatever we can, hopefully Jaric!!

Earl Watson would have scored 5.

Earl Watson would have scored 5.

As long as he prevents 10, and sets up 10 more, I'm good with that.

:mccosky:

Rumor control

This is the worst time of year for rumors. The trade deadline (Feb. 22) is still too far off for most teams to show all their cards and what you get is a lot of postering, with general managers sizing up rosters and testing the waters. That leads to a lot of premature and flat-out bogus rumors. Also, there are a lot of people in this industry (media) that like to play GM and make up their own trade scenarios -- which is irritating, because those tend to take on a life of their own, even though they aren't based in any kind of fact.

So, here's how I like to deal with rumors -- especially this time of year. Unless I know for sure that it's something that has been discussed (by Joe Dumars and another team), I won't put it in the paper. I may use this blog space to let you know (as best I can) about the bogus stuff. But it is irresponsible to keep throwing players' names in all these alleged deals when nothing is there. These are human beings with families, you know? We are talking about the possibility of uprooting a person's life. It's no joke.

That said, I can tell you, for sure, Dumars has NOT talked to Golden State (at all, about any player) or San Antonio (at all). Dumars has not talked to New Jersey about acquiring Jason Collins, either, which was reported last week. He has talked to Minnesota about a Nazr Mohammed-Marko Jaric deal, which isn't dead but on the backburner right now. He has also made inquiries about Mo Peterson and Bonzi Wells. There are certainly others that he has looked into that I haven't caught wind of yet. The Pistons are going to eventually move Mohammed, I don't think that is much of a secret. Flip Murray, too, is likely to be gone. But Dumars isn't going to rush into making any deal. He doesn't want to keep Mohammed on the hook, but moving a guy with five years and $25 million left on his contract isn't easy. Patience.

32 minutes, 1 point

I'll take Nazr, thank you.
I was curious about Jaric and not sleeping well so I watched parts of this.

4 rebounds, 4 assists, a couple decent plays, coming off an injury. Delfino's had similar performances and no one's said "omfg, Delfino bites the big one". During the 3Q where they got really blown out, they tried playing Jaric at PF, and were undersized even compared to Phoenix at every position. Jaric wasn't out there to score (they were getting scoring from the 1/2/3, and Minny was 12 of 18 from 3P range) but to try to play D in stretches. He did ok except for the one stretch at PF against Amare and Marion. No KG means Phoenix's bigs totally slaughtered Minny's.

I was curious about Jaric and not sleeping well so I watched parts of this.

4 rebounds, 4 assists, a couple decent plays, coming off an injury. Delfino's had similar performances and no one's said "omfg, Delfino bites the big one". During the 3Q where they got really blown out, they tried playing Jaric at PF, and were undersized even compared to Phoenix at every position. Jaric wasn't out there to score (they were getting scoring from the 1/2/3, and Minny was 12 of 18 from 3P range) but to try to play D in stretches. He did ok except for the one stretch at PF against Amare and Marion. No KG means Phoenix's bigs totally slaughtered Minny's.
Glenn just hates Jaric aka our eventual PG.[smilie=heatsmiley2:

So by that logic, I should have just ignored this and tried to convince myself that it didn't happen. In fact, I'm sure he'd be a great addition to our bench!

Sounds sooper!!

I wonder if Nazr would score 1 point in 32 minutes? Wait, no I don't. We need to trade Nazr ASAP and get whatever we can, hopefully Jaric!!
Nazr wouldnt make it to 32 minutes w/o fouling out. Not even a possible scenario.[smilie=jefffoster.: You posted his lowest stat line w/o seeing the game and what happened. Mxy posted a much more even keel version of his performance. :mccosky:

In fact you should punish yourself by doing a Jaric every game stat tracker of all his stats along with careful watching of every game he is in until you wake up with a Jaric Jersey on in an old dirty eastern european motel.

Just thought that it was noteworthy that our top potential "PG" target gets named "Sunday's Worst".

I'll lay off the Jaric vitriol, pending the outcome of the poll I'm about to post.

That said, I can tell you, for sure, Dumars has NOT talked to Golden State (at all, about any player) or San Antonio (at all).
I guess a three team deal with Golden State and San Antonio is imminent.

San Antonio (this is in reaction to McCosky, not Zekyl)? WhyTF would the Spurs trade back for a guy they didn't care enough to keep in the first place?

I'm just wondering why everyone is so quick to jump on Nazr for his high-foul rate and not Mcdyess who is proving to be equally adept at picking up fouls.

Nazr per 48 minutes fouls at a 7.9 clip. McDyess at a 7.1.

But when you consider everything else that Nazr does he's MORE productive than Mcdyess.

Per 48 minutes:

Nazr 17.8 ppg, 14.1 rbpg
Mcdyess 13.0 ppg (which is less than delfino, murray, hunter, etc.), rbpg 13.1

Granted stats can be twisted to prove just about any opinion and mcdyess had a slow start but still, the #'s don't lie.

Nazr isn't as bad as you think (and he's shooting at a high% which proves he doesn't take dumb shots).

Yes, McDyess is having a poor year so far. But he's built up the credit to earn the benefit of the doubt. Even with that however, there were still plenty here that said they'd trade him over Nazr (me being one of them) once Webber was a definate.

I don't know what Nazr has done in the postseason (I don't remember him doing much), but Dyess has shown up for us in the post season. Also, Dyess has a better contract. Those are the edges he holds over Nazr. Plus he hasn't complained about PT.

Yes, McDyess is having a poor year so far. But he's built up the credit to earn the benefit of the doubt.
Exactly. He's had slow starts every year here. And he's heated up as of late.


Granted stats can be twisted to prove just about any opinion and mcdyess had a slow start but still, the #'s don't lie.

Nazr isn't as bad as you think (and he's shooting at a high% which proves he doesn't take dumb shots).
Numbers lie quite often, which is why hollinger is disgusted with nazr not getting playing time as if he was a vital piece. Dyess has more range, hustles harder, complains far less, and lately has been rock solid the past few games.

For the record nobody thinks nazr is bad, just average at best. He isnt better than dyess stats or no stats imo. But thats not the main issue for me. The main issue for me is that if dyess plays 3 or 20 minutes he gives the same effort no complaints. If nazr plays short minutes, expect the most lackluster effort he can provide with complaints about more playing time. He's backtracking on it now. but thats only because we are shipping him to whatever team wants him championship contender or not.

Plus he hasn't complained about PT.
That's a huge edge. Constant complaining is going to bring down team chemistry. Plus the fact that Dyess is loved in the locker room and has a big fan in Chauncy, who we want to resign this summer.

If roles were reversed I guarantee you mcdyess would complain just as much if not more. He complained when he first came to the pistons because he was coming off the bench and not starting.

I don't see a problem with a guy that was contributing wishing to still contribute when he's completely removed from the rotation and states this publicy. The problem lies with Flip's handling of the situation (not communicating with Nazy; in webber's first game webber plays 17 minutes, mcdyess plays 34 and maxiell and nazr don't play at all, etc.). There's no rhyme or reason to his madness.

I personally like that Nazr came out and played hard in garbage minutes last game. Yes, he was hacking all over the place but 7 boards in 8 minutes is crazy aggressive. I liked seeing that especially since defensive rebounds (or our ability to give up 10+ offensive rebounds consistenly which will kill this team) is so impt. to this team.

Again, not saying that I support one over the other, they are completely different players, just that I'm not sold on the fact that we should be dumping Nazy (or mcdyess for that reason) without knowing for sure who's the right person to go. Why not try Nazy and Webber in the same lineup? I'm of the opinion that Webber isn't a center and needs to play with a 7-footer to be most effective offensively and defensively, especially a 7-footer that's plays low on the blocks. When rasheed misses games due to suspension and/or injury I don't like the idea of mcdyess and webber in the same lineup which is why you're also not seeing this combo yet in 3 games.

Also, I'm not sold on the mcdyess/maxiell lineup that appears to be the normal rotation at the momeny. Mcdyess is not and will never be a center and our defense/rebounding takes a hit with this lineup. Why not try Nazr and Maxiell?

I also don't like how Flip, for the most part, plays the bench with the bench and starters with starters and rarely mixes it up. Often times you'll see lineups, as was the case against Minnesota, where the opponent will have 4 or 5 starters matched up against a pistons lineup that only features 1 or no starters. Flip needs to mix it up a bit so that we don't lose momentum with the bench and/or create mismatches. Bench players playing with starters make the bench players better and provides more chances of success.

With that being said, Flip actually did coach a good game against the kings with solid substituion patterns and rotations, which could have been attributed to tired players forcing his hands. Granted the kings suck but he did improve from the night before.

I've defended Nazr before Webber was here. I think Nazr is an OK player. An average big man. The only reason I want to trade him now is because we do have too many big men. I would prefer to move DD if I knew %100 that Davidson would still pay Billups. I choose Nazr because his contract is worse. If Cuban was our owner I would trade DD for a PG and call it a day. nazr is fine, but we all know Flip is crazy with rotations and Nazr won't get minutes. It's just not going to happen. So we might as well move him and not pay him 5 years to whine.

And I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to bitch either. If I was a MLE big man I know I could have gone somewhere else and started or at least play 25 MPG. I would bitch too if I didn't play.

Nazr was a bad fit on this team because the Pistons are a ball-control club.

They win by moving the ball, getting quality shots, and not turning it over.

Nazr (A) can't pass, and (B) can't hold on to the ball. He's not a good fit in an offense where everybody touches the ball consistantly.

BTW, that's also why Webber is such an excellent fit on this team. Great passer, doesn't turn the ball over.

I think if you put Nazr on an iso-oriented team that takes quick shots the ball and crashes the boards, he would be a great fit. He just can't exist here because we ask our big men to take care of the ball.

Dale, Dice and Maxiell aren't good passers by any stretch, but they've at least learned how to not throw the ball away or dribble it off their feet.

We're never going to win a dead sprint to the basket, so its more important for us than any other team to make the other team score 5-on-5.

If roles were reversed I guarantee you mcdyess would complain just as much if not more. He complained when he first came to the pistons because he was coming off the bench and not starting.
Thats a big accusation. Hopefully you have a link to Dyess complaining about not starting. If not then I politely call bullshit on that.

I understand your grudge with the substitutions(i agree with that part actually), but that isn't what is the issue imo. The issue to me is Nazr values his game for more than its worth to us and doesn't step up to back it up. if he did then maybe he'd have a gripe or atleast his game would outweigh his mouth. Unfortunately it doesnt come close. Again he pulled this same routine in SA, which is why he lost his job to gimp soft Rasho twice. In fact Robert Horry was in kinda the same position as Dyess, his numbers didnt equate to what Nazr was doing, but he was more important in big game scenarios and the playoffs. He also didnt complain about his minutes. [smilie=jefffoster.:

Also, Nazr isnt much of a true center either(especially on defense). In fact Dale Davis plays more like a center than Nazr.

Yeah, that definately needs a citation.

McDyess did NOT come to the Pistons to be a starter...he knew his role, wanted to play with Chauncey, and for a title, and never ONCE has he complained about not starting. An aboluste travesty of a lie...lol

pertaining to Dice....I think its safe to say he wouldnt ask to be traded under ANY circumstances.

I think this article makes it clear that Dice isn't playing for himself anymore. He's playing to have fun and win. I don't believe playing time and money are primary goals.



Joe D makes McDyess an offer he can’t refuse

Staying Put

by Keith Langlois

http://www.nba.com/pistons/news/stayingput_070122.html

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. – Antonio McDyess could barely bend over to tie his shoes a week ago, but his back is feeling much better these days. Part of the credit goes to Pistons strength coach Arnie Kander for his deep-muscle massage, but most of it goes to Joe Dumars for his surgical skills. Joe D, it turns out, excised a 1,000-pound gorilla from his sixth man’s back.

“Yeah, I’m a little more relaxed now,” McDyess said through the incandescent grin that’s made him one of the most universally liked players in the NBA for 12 years.

And all it took was Dumars assuring McDyess, who signed with the Pistons as a free agent before the 2004-05 season, that he would not be the big man sent packing to make room in an overcrowded frontcourt for Chris Webber.

“To have Joe pull me in and give me good news is definitely a weight off my shoulders,” said McDyess, who has averaged 12 points and 7.3 rebounds over his last four games after being mired in a deep slump for much of the season.

But before Dumars put McDyess’ mind at ease, he made him squirm a little.

After practice early last week, he sent trainer Mike Abdenour to summon McDyess – who says he would have seriously considered retirement had the Pistons traded him – to his office.

“When you send somebody to get guys, automatically they think they’ve been traded,” Dumars grinned as he recalled the story. “I don’t care who it is, they think they’re gone. In football, they say, ‘Bring your playbook.’ It’s like that.

“He cracks the door open and says, ‘Yeah?’

“You need to come in here and sit down.”

“Come on, Joe, what?” McDyess said, dropping his head. “What are you about to say?”

“I’m about to say, ‘Sit down.’

“I don’t want to sit down – just tell me.”

“No, you’ve got to sit down first,”

McDyess plops down in the seat across from Dumars’ desk.

“OK, I’ve got a deal for you.”

“Awwwwww …”

“Listen to the deal first, McDyess. I’m going to give you something and then you’ve got to give me something.”

“What?”

“I’m going to give you the reassurance that I’m not going to trade you.”

“OK. What do I need to give you?”

“Some … good … basketball … play. Quit struggling.”

“If you don’t trade me, I’ll quit struggling.”

And with that, they laughed, they hugged, they shook hands.

And the Pistons got back one of the NBA’s all-time good guys and best sixth men.

“So he’s been relieved, as you can see,” Dumars said. “That’s why you call guys in. You can’t let it fester.”

When Dumars became fairly certain that Webber would wind up in Detroit, a week or so before he actually signed, he began exploring trade possibilities. His original thought was to deal McDyess, because “even though he was struggling until (recently), around the league he has tremendous value.”

He quickly found a trade partner who made an attractive offer that would have given the Pistons another scoring option on the perimeter. But then Dumars, as he always does, checked the pulse of his locker room. And when he ran it by his captains – Chauncey Billups, Tayshaun Prince and Rip Hamilton – it didn’t take long for them to convince the Pistons’ president to seek another alternative.

“I talked to Chauncey, Rip and Tay and I say to them, ‘Look, if we get Webber, I’ve got to move a big. I can’t keep all of them.’

“And the first thing Chauncey said was, ‘I know you’re not going to move McDyess, are you?’

“I said, ‘Well, I could.’ And Tay says, ‘Joe, you can’t do that. Chemistry, locker room. I know he’s not playing the way you want him to play right now, but he will. He’s going to get there. We’ve got to have him.’ ”

And so they do – the Antonio McDyess of the last two seasons who almost never failed to move the Pistons to a higher plane when he entered the game. That process might have begun even before the Dumars conversation. It probably started with a Dumars e-mail sent to McDyess after a listless performance in the Pistons’ loss at Altanta on Jan. 12.

“That told me something, that I wasn’t getting it done,” McDyess said. “I pulled films and looked at myself and how I was playing and I really wasn’t getting the job done. That was eye-opening for me, definitely. You don’t realize it until you do look at yourself play. I know I wasn’t playing that way last year. I was a totally different player and realized I had to go out there and play a lot better.”

McDyess admits that even as he began to lose confidence in himself, it meant the world to him that his teammates never did – and it overwhelms him that the captains went to bat to convince Dumars not to trade him.

“They never lost confidence in me,” he said. “I probably did in myself, but they never did. I was surprised. They were still giving me the ball, telling me to shoot. A lot of times I would hesitate, worry about if I would make or miss the shot. Now I just go out there and shoot it and don’t worry about what happens.

“When you’re in a slump, you lose confidence. You don’t think about anything positive. The thing that lifts you up is your teammates, like Chauncey. He kept saying, ‘That ain’t you. It’ll come; it’ll come.’ Then, when I start playing better, you can hear them all cheering for you. I come into the locker room, they’re like, ‘Glad to have you back.’ And I say, ‘I’m glad to be back.’ It means a lot, knowing your teammates still have that confidence in you.”

When McDyess’ agent first broached the possibility of being traded, it sucked the air out of his lungs.

“I love it here,” McDyess said. “I couldn’t imagine being anywhere else. I told my agent, if I had to get traded, I don’t know if I would have made it to that team. I would probably go and retire. That’s how close I feel to this team and how dedicated I feel, because of the last couple of years, so close, going to the Finals and trying to win it. I have so many expectations, knowing we can win. If I had gotten traded, I don’t think I could have dealt with it. I would have had some hard thinking to do.”

Now all he has to do is hold up his end of the best deal Joe Dumars could have made for him.

“I love it here,” McDyess said. “I couldn’t imagine being anywhere else. I told my agent, if I had to get traded, I don’t know if I would have made it to that team. I would probably go and retire. That’s how close I feel to this team and how dedicated I feel, because of the last couple of years, so close, going to the Finals and trying to win it. I have so many expectations, knowing we can win. If I had gotten traded, I don’t think I could have dealt with it. I would have had some hard thinking to do.”

And who wants to trade a guy like that? Its bad karma IMO. There was a time when no one would say that in the teal era. So respect the the Dice Man bitches!!

He's going to be a piston in 2008. I think it's pretty obvious he's going to use his player option.

That said, he's going to have his role reduced, sicne the only way we're going to bring Amir back is with a promise of playing time.

gotta love Dice, i hope we win a championchip just for him :P

That's a nice piece, Dice is one of my favorites on the team.

I find Langlois' stuff so interesting. The whole "team employed beat reporter" is such an odd concept. One can make the assumption that the whole Dice/Joe conversation was relayed to Langlois (by Joe) for a reason.

They are controlling the message on so many different levels, it's kinda admirable.

Nazr for Darko.

Salaries only $3,000 apart.

DO IT JOE!!!

That's a nice piece, Dice is one of my favorites on the team.

I find Langlois' stuff so interesting. The whole "team employed beat reporter" is such an odd concept. One can make the assumption that the whole Dice/Joe conversation was relayed to Langlois (by Joe) for a reason.

They are controlling the message on so many different levels, it's kinda admirable.
Its propaganda. Now I happened to have enjoyed this propaganda but its still something to watch out for. If the other beat writers are still critical then its not harmful, but there are teams where the only major coverage is from "reporters" who seem to only report what the team wants and that's not a good situation.

I'd prefer to have someone smarter than McClueless as the opposition to the team mouth piece, but I don't think he tries to be mindless. I think he just doesn't know when to trust what the team tells him and when to look deeper. Plus there are enough other guys to keep the team-speak in check.

McDyess did NOT come to the Pistons to be a starter...he knew his role, wanted to play with Chauncey, and for a title, and never ONCE has he complained about not starting. An aboluste travesty of a lie...lol

You are correct, McDyess knew his role when first arriving with the pistons but when he struggled at the beginning of the season in 2004, as he always struggles at the beginning of seasons, and grew frustrated only 4 or 5 games into the year, and attributed this to him being a starter in his playing history and not used to coming off the bench. He said he wasn't playing enough time to get warmed up, etc., etc., etc.

Actually in a very short period of time, his play improved, thanks in part to Ben Wallace's injury giving Mcdyess the opportunity to start in a game against the Denver Nuggets and two days later against the Utah Jazz, which does give credence to his story about needing to start to get in "in the flow" but he definitely did express frustration and doubt about his ability to come off the bench and that starting is his preference. After experiencing success, his confidence grew because he felt he was contributing to a championship team and went on to become one of the best 6th men in the league.

Nowadays his slow starts are attributed to him not working out in the off-season, which I assume he also didn't do back in 2004. So which is the truth, not starting back in 2004 or not working out? Either way I don't care because he's a good teammate and eventually produces.

But he is flawed just like many other current pistons on this roster.

If people can't remember this situation, I understand some of you may not have watched the pistons in 2004 for various reasons (were in diapers, didn't yet jump on the bandwagon, engage in heavy drug use, etc.), there's nothing I can do to change your minds.

If people can't remember this situation, I understand some of you may not have watched the pistons in 2004 for various reasons (were in diapers, didn't yet jump on the bandwagon, engage in heavy drug use, etc.), there's nothing I can do to change your minds.
Fuck that shit.

Your last post about Dyess blaiming his slow start on never having been a bench player is a HELLUVA lot different then


If roles were reversed I guarantee you mcdyess would complain just as much if not more. He complained when he first came to the pistons because he was coming off the bench and not starting.
Its a joke that you try to play your being wrong off on the rest of us being bandwagon fans. If this is the shit you are going to bring here, stay over on worldcrossing or pistonsforum or wherever it is I've seen your screen name before.

Being wrong isn't a big deal, but playing it off as us just not having been around or you being a truer fan is garbage.

Dyess would complain if he was in Nazr's situation right now as well. The difference is that he wouldn't have complained in the situation Nazr started the year, but Nazr did. Dyess is happy with 20-25 MPG off the bench. nazr complains about it. Dyess might have been unhappy at first, but he had to adjust to a good team where winning was more important. The fact is he would not have come here if he expected to play 35 MPG. We had Sheed and Ben. Dyess knew he was going to come off the bench. I'm sorry, but there is no way that Dyess could have expected to be starting here.

However, Nazr expected to play big minutes because Ben left. So naturally he is dissapointed to be out of the rotation. I don't really blame him for wanting to leave. He has the pride to know that he wants to play and not just collect a pay check.

Fuck that shit.

Your last post about Dyess blaiming his slow start on never having been a bench player is a HELLUVA lot different then


Its a joke that you try to play your being wrong off on the rest of us being bandwagon fans. If this is the shit you are going to bring here, stay over on worldcrossing or pistonsforum or wherever it is I've seen your screen name before.

Being wrong isn't a big deal, but playing it off as us just not having been around or you being a truer fan is garbage.

Yargs is one of the best posters on here. I disagree with him on this subject, but don't tell him to go away. %99 of his posts are excellent...i just don't agree with this topic.

That was pretty condescending, borderline insulting.

Pretty surprising.

Oh well.

That last paragraph was uncalled for IMO. I'm not in diapers and I watched the 2004 season. yet I still don't remember Dyess bitching about not playing. I've been wrong before, but I'd like proof.

He might have said he couldn't get in a good rythm off the bench, but that doesn't make it bitching. He's just saying he's not used to it. That's all.

I like Yargs too. But I agree with fool that he's not willing to admit that he made a really really bad statement about McDyess. Then kinda put it on us. Thats not right. With that said i'm not looking to see him vanish. But man up and give us a little more credit than being bandwagon junkies. thats kinda rude and nobody jumped on you for any personal attacks.

That last paragraph was uncalled for IMO. I'm not in diapers and I watched the 2004 season. yet I still don't remember Dyess bitching about not playing. I've been wrong before, but I'd like proof.
the thing he was talking about wasn't Dyess bitching. In fact it was like he said, Dyess said he had to get used to being a sixth man. but never bitched about it. I remember it happening while I was crapping my diapers.

I probably came in too strong, for that I apologize. I'm not trying to drive the guy away, but he can definately keep that "you guys would know if you weren't bandwagon fans" on other boards.

the thing he was talking about wasn't Dyess bitching. In fact it was like he said, Dyess said he had to get used to being a sixth man. but never bitched about it. I remember it happening while I was crapping my diapers.
No, he said specifically that Dyess complained about not starting:


If roles were reversed I guarantee you mcdyess would complain just as much if not more. He complained when he first came to the pistons because he was coming off the bench and not starting.

That's why I said that Dyess didn't come here expecting to start and that Dyess was just struggling with the change to 6th man. That's not complaining in my book.

BTW, I'm sure Joe sold Nazr on big minutes with Ben being gone. not only did he only get 20 MPG, but he completely fell out of the rotation before the all star break. That has to be crushing, whether you think it's fair or not.

crushing how? most of that came from him getting into early foul trouble way too often. I still dont see how Flip is faulted for the extra 5-10 minutes Nazr loses getting into foul trouble. I hate flip's rotations, but its not at fault for Nazr missing out on that extra time.

I said not being in the rotation at all has to be crushing, especially after expecting to play big minutes when Ben left.

WTF Chris- I completely meant no disrespect at all. In fact you're one of the most respected contributors to this forum (and previous forums) that I've ever had the pleasure to communicate with. My sincerest apologies. Please understand that I was referenced a liar from a poster I had never heard of and took offense. I usually don't get insulted by posters on forums but did in this case. My sarcasm and lack of judgement was not directed at you, Gutz or anyone other than that yahoo jickboy34. And yes, I still think jickboy34 is a yahoo and was in diapers in 2004 as judging by that picture of his (which is where my comment came from).

Regardless, I'm only here to talk basketball, something I will continue to do along with support for my opinions. I try not to lie.

With that being said, I did construe mcdyess' comments back in 2004 regarding his struggles adapting to his new role as being a complaint that he was not starting. I am entitled to that interpretation of the situation. When hearing him make those comments I thought it was in poor taste considering he was playing behind the wallaces, who were and still are infinitely better players, and using that as an excuse for not perfoming well.

He was frustrated much like Nazr is currently frustrated because they both believe they could and can contribute. I like that Mcdyess kept on working and improved. I liked that Nazr kicked butt (literally in terms of fouls but also in his dominance of the boards) in the garbage minutes he was given which is an exact contrast to what we have seen from guys like Darko and Delfino in recent history. I hope he gets another chance to succeed with this team because I think he has skills that can make this team better.

I believe these situations parallel which was to prove my original premise that:
I STILL BELIEVE Mcdyess would complain the same, if not more animately, if he were suddently removed from the rotation. To me, he bitched about starting in the past, shut up, went back to work and got better.

I don't perceive that to being a negative. Nazy is doing the same.

I honestly don't remember Dice being upset about anything since he's been a Piston (other than the KG thing the other night and being devastated whenever the Pistons get eliminated from the playoffs).

Actually, the most upset that I remember him getting is when they tried to get him to start once and he didn't want to. I seem to recall a game (against the Suns maybe?) when he actually was announced as the starter because something was up with Sheed. Sheed showed up at the last minute and was ready to come off the bench and Dice insisted that he start.

Doesn't mean there have been things we haven't heard about that maybe yargs has, but it would be really out of character for him to complain about not starting.

It was pretty obvious when he signed here that he wasn't going to start.

I agree with Yargs that Dice would complain if he were out of the rotation. I have no doubts of that. I don't blame Nazr for complaining about that either. Nazr complained before getting Webber though. perhaps he was right (we all know Flip's rotations are wack), but it doesn't matter. The fact is that he is unhappy. period. I'd rather not have an unhappy big man for 5 years here.

I honestly don't remember Dice being upset about anything since he's been a Piston (other than the KG thing the other night and being devastated whenever the Pistons get eliminated from the playoffs).
There was one time early when he first started here in 2005 when he kicked a ball into the stands out of anger. That's about it.

he also gets upset everytime a foul gets called on him........Dice NEVER thinks he committed a foul, lol.

My sarcasm and lack of judgement was not directed at you, Gutz or anyone other than that yahoo jickboy34. And yes, I still think jickboy34 is a yahoo and was in diapers in 2004 as judging by that picture of his (which is where my comment came from).

LOL at you. I have been following the Pistons with as much of a passion as anyone on this site. And my 'travesty of a lie' statement was obviously a joke because nobody in there right mind could make a statement like that and be serious with themself. I am however, taking an ultimate stance against you and your Dyess statement. It is flat out WRONG. I don't know you from a stick in the mud on this forum, and really don't care to engage in Internet flames, but you gotta settle down and admit that you are wrong. You have 5-6 respected posted saying you are wrong, and instead of admitting that, you changed it around by making fun of my av. You are such a mean internet MB bully.....

LOL at you. I have been following the Pistons with as much of a passion as anyone on this site. And my 'travesty of a lie' statement was obviously a joke because nobody in there right mind could make a statement like that and be serious with themself. I am however, taking an ultimate stance against you and your Dyess statement. It is flat out WRONG. I don't know you from a stick in the mud on this forum, and really don't care to engage in Internet flames, but you gotta settle down and admit that you are wrong. You have 5-6 respected posted saying you are wrong, and instead of admitting that, you changed it around by making fun of my av. You are such a mean internet MB bully.....

I am entitled to my own opinions and am allowed to make interpretations of certain situations and am happy to have a forum to express them. Everyone may not agree with them but that's not the point.

Regardless, my introduction to Antonio Mcdyess was one that gave me the impression that he's a man that uses excuses for his poor play. He's a sensitive, proud man but sometimes refuses to take responsibility for his poor play.

Whether that's because he was only a starter in the past, doesn't work out in the summer, thinks the referees have a personal vendetta against him (there have been numerous stories about this) or Joe having to call him into his office in order for him to stop pouting about a potential trade and to man-up and play, he's someone that obviously needs to be treated with kids glove in comparison to other players. I also don't like guys that make excuses.

I also don't understand why he gets a reprieve for his consistently inconsistent play. The truth of the matter is he's on the downside of his career, is only a jump-shooting big man on a team with too many, can't move laterally because he's playing on one leg (which is why he can't defend anyone and fouls with regularity) but somehow he always gets a chance to contribute while others do not (maxiell, nazr).

This team is in trouble unless they can solve two things:

1. their horrible propensity towards giving second chance points/offensive rebounds. It's obvious our coach doesn't preach this as being important because as soon as he came here we started to struggle in this category (while all the good teams, coaches in the league, past and present, stress this as being potentially the most important part of success).

Everyone should do themselves a favor and see how often the good coaches/teams give up 10+ offensive rebounds a game. It's a rarity.

For the Pistons is a regularity and it's been happening since day one when saunders came here.

And, if mcdyess isn't helping in an area that we're struggling with (webber and wallace aren't any better but they are and should be heavy, rotation players) why not try someone else off the bench?

2. We still need a wing that can score. Delfino is another player that continually gets reprieves from pistons' faithful and the coaching staff but has yet to become a consistent, viable offensive option off the bench. When is enough, enough? And Flip Murray is a joke. We haven't had a guard that couldn't dribble nor shoot like him since Jerry Stackhouse.

This is a need far greater than a back-up pointguard, in my opinion.

The reason why Delfino gets a free pass is because we don't have anyone better. If Battier or another solid SG/SF were here than I would bench/trade him. He certainly has skills, but his jump shot comes and goes far too often.

The things you say about Dyess's abilities are true, but he usually turns it up in the playoffs, which is why he tends to get a free pass. I'm all in favor of more PT for Max though. Clearly this guy can ball. He also provides defense that Dyess and Nazr do not. The reason why Dyess will stay and Nazr won't is because Nazr wanted out and he also has a longer contract. It's not that Dyess is outplaying them, they are both pretty effective scoring but don't do much defensively, but the trade talk and the contract work against him.

The reason why Delfino gets a free pass is because we don't have anyone better.
i dont think he gets a free pass at all. I think some people's requirement that he be a scorer isn't shared by the Pistons. He's out there for defense, perimeter rebounding, hustle, and his ability to pass. Whatever he scores is gravy, but scoring isnt his role and for anybody still stuck on that you're never gonna get why he's out there and why Joe D. likes what he provides enough to go for bat for him. Just like before Hunter found his temporary scoring niche, people didnt like him as our backup pg, now they are saying we are set at the position..lol

Just like before Hunter found his temporary scoring niche, people didnt like him as our backup pg, now they are saying we are set at the position..lol

I'm calling you out, lol.

Find somebodys (plural) that have said we are all set at PG.

Most think Hunter is fine situationally and for spot playoff duty, but not our ideal #2 PG. He needs to be injury-free & rested for the playoffs, not playing in blowouts (not that we have many of those this year).

I'm calling you out, lol.

Find somebodys (plural) that have said we are all set at PG.
these guys.
[smilie=blaha.gif] [smilie=blaha.gif] [smilie=blaha.gif] [smilie=blaha.gif] [smilie=blaha.gif] [smilie=blaha.gif] [smilie=blaha.gif] [smilie=blaha.gif] :mccosky:

The problem with overlooking Delfino's scoring is that Hunter also playes defense and hustles but doesn't score. That leaves Dyess as your lone bench scorer. So, either you need a scoring swingman to replace Delfino OR a scoring PG to replace Hunter in the regular rotation.

these guys.
[smilie=blaha.gif] [smilie=blaha.gif] [smilie=blaha.gif] [smilie=blaha.gif] [smilie=blaha.gif] [smilie=blaha.gif] [smilie=blaha.gif] [smilie=blaha.gif] :mccosky:


I'm going to accept that.

I'm going to accept that.


Our judges say thats Ok, they roll big joints too.

Cheech & Chong reference?

^yes sir. "Lets make a dope deal".

I hadn't heard that in about 20 years (I had the cassette when I was about 15), pretty weird that I could still place it.

The problem with overlooking Delfino's scoring is that Hunter also playes defense and hustles but doesn't score. That leaves Dyess as your lone bench scorer. So, either you need a scoring swingman to replace Delfino OR a scoring PG to replace Hunter in the regular rotation.

Exactly, we just need someone on the wing that can offer some kind of consistent scoring threat. This has been the same song and dance since 2004-05. Delfino was supposed to improve and Flip Murray was supposed to be instant offense off the bench. Dumars was wrong.

I'm comfortable with hunter as a point guard if we had a legit scorer from either the 2 or 3 position because of the energy hunter brings on the defensive end.

Instead we're left with a carlos delfino that plays out of position (he's really a 2) and can't score or shoot (but is very active) which would be ok if we had a 2 that could score; a Flip Murray that has been a complete flop due to his inability to do anything; and a regressing Antonio Mcdyess (it shouldn't take 3 months to find your groove).

Dare I say our bench is equally as bad as it's ever been especially now that Maxiell is essentially out of the rotation? (not that maxiell is a savior but he does bring things to the team that it obviously lacks)

Joe Dumars has failed for the past 3 off-seasons to resolve an obvious problem with the bench.

ps- Marko Jaric is not the answer. We don't need another guy that only scores 1 point in 32 minutes like he did against pheonix a few games back...or throw up a 2 point in 17 minute effort like he did last night. We don't need another Michael Curry. We have enough ineffiecient offense players currently coming off our bench.

I really wish Flip would have trusted his gutt and let Delfino play backup PG when Billups and Hunter were out. Then we'd know if he could handle a few minutes there and allow us to compliment him and Hunter with a true scorer like Mo Pete. Unfortunately we can only specilate whether he can be a combo guard.

Credit again to JS


Kerwin (Hong Kong): Where do you think Detroit will send Nazr Mohammed to and who will they get in return? Please not Marko Jaric!

SportsNation Chris Sheridan: Just a guess, but Phoenix for Marcus Banks seems to make some sense for both of them. I asked Nazr last week if he was buying or renting in Michigan, and he said not only had he bought, he certainly didn't want to have to sell in the current real estate market.

Seems like the Suns have been showcasing James Jones too, so why don't we take Banks and Jones off their hands for Nazr & Flip Jr?

I'm not a big Banks fan (unlike Pharaoh) but he can defend pretty well, and if we can get a decent backup PG and a solid option to backup Tay at the same time, then why not?

Seems like the Suns have been showcasing James Jones too, so why don't we take Banks and Jones off their hands for Nazr & Flip Jr?

I'm not a big Banks fan (unlike Pharaoh) but he can defend pretty well, and if we can get a decent backup PG and a solid option to backup Tay at the same time, then why not?

Banks and Jones for Nazr, Flip, (and a pick?) would be great for us. James Jones struggled to start the season, but he is putting up over 10ppg in 18mpg on 47% shooting since the leather ball came back. He would be the perfect, spot up in the corner guy that could free up Delfino to play more PG and Off-Guard. Banks is young, and is definately worth a shot based on how he played with Minnesota last year. He's on a 5 year deal, but it's smaller than Nazr's, so it's no biggie if he doesn't pan out completely. Still, he's a better option than Lindsey running the point at the moment.

and a regressing Antonio Mcdyess (it shouldn't take 3 months to find your groove).

dude i intend no harshness when i say this, but get up to speed and watch a b-ball game lately. he hasnt been slumping for like two weeks and it takes him this long to out of his slow start every year. you're pushing the same theory from when nazr was starting, which like dyess slump has been over for a couple weeks. theres no "regressing", for someone who claims to know this team so well for so long, you sure do only pay attention to what you want to.[smilie=blaha.gif] Again i intend no offense in saying that, but you're hell bent on painting Dyess as a washed up cancer damn near, and its getting kinda ridiculous man.