Regardless of the outcome of this game or this series, he needs to go.

ya think?:( my goodness this guy sucks. I was hoping our talent could overide anyone outcoaching him. so much for my hopes. LOL@the pistons threads are needed. :mad:

how could we implode like that after the first and a half games? i mean what happened? we lost 3 straight low scoring games, we didnt show mental toughness down the stretch, we lost our edge somehow, i dont know how that happened, but under LB we did almost always bounce back from a tough loss, and against far better teams than Cleveland...we should be far superior in every category...this is unaccaptable and there will be some drastic consequenses if we lose this series

I have to agree. What the fuck kind of coaching was that at the end? How about that "Give-the-ball-to-Tayshaun-and-have-him-dribble-for-12-seconds" play? I thought this guy was an offensive genius, that his playbook was like a dictionary.

What baffles me most is how mike brown can call a better set play out of a timeout than Flip. :(

Heres hoping to welcomeing back Larry Brown. I've said it since the hire, Fuck Flip. Fuck that hire. He's made this soft.

I thought this guy was an offensive genius, that his playbook was like a dictionary.
http://www.pauvrete.qc.ca/IMG/jpg/Apercu-du-pamphlet-2-reduit-2.jpg
As you can see its not what it was told to be.

Didn't want to bring him up but definately thinking about LBrown. Didn't always like his style during the season but he coached during he playoffs. He had an impact on games, I don't see any from the coach right now.

look, it'll never happen but could you fucking imagine if we fired Flop and hire Larry Brown back in the middle of the playoff run? OMFG would that be incredible.

I don't think Flip has really screwed up. I think the players have a bigger hand in this debacle than him.

However, IF we lose this series, Flip does have to get fired. Can't argue with the results.

Flip should have never have been Hired. Larry was the perfect coach for this team. Fuck.

I really like Flop, instead of Flip until we win this series.

I do think some people are just in such denial about the so-called "talent" on the rest of the roster that they wont admit the players just MIGHT have been the big problem.

I don't think Flip has really screwed up. I think the players have a bigger hand in this debacle than him.
you copped an attitude in the chatroom about this. but you were the first one to give flip credit for those regular season wins. now you're backing away from him shouldering the same amount of blame on these playoff losses.

odd that i figured his ability to be outcoached so easily wouldnt hamper us until the finals. it got us a lil earlier than expected.

I don't think Flip has really screwed up. I think the players have a bigger hand in this debacle than him.
you copped an attitude in the chatroom about this. but you were the first one to give flip credit for those regular season wins. now you're backing away from him shouldering the same amount of blame on these playoff losses.

odd that i figured his ability to be outcoached so easily wouldnt hamper us until the finals. it got us a lil earlier than expected.

Their team has lebron. Ours doesn't.

Funny how Mike Brown is such a genius with a guy no two players on our team can guard...

And I just said Flip should get fired if we don't win this series, didn't I? I'm just not going to join the whitch-hunt with the rest of you looking to pin all the blame on one guy.

I do think some people are just in such denial about the so-called "talent" on the rest of the roster that they wont admit the players just MIGHT have been the big problem.

Oh yes, we're the less talented team. Nevermind the core of the team has recently won a championship and nearly another. Get that weak shit out of here. The only change worth mentioning in the last year has been Flip Saunders. His late game playcalling is horrible, and anybody with eyes can tell you that.

Their team has lebron. Ours doesn't.

Funny how Mike Brown is such a genius with a guy no two players on our team can guard...

And I just said Flip should get fired if we don't win this series, didn't I?

Lebron???????ROTFLMAO ........Recollecting myself ....ROTFLMAO again. Dude you're making the lebron is superman excuse when flip murray is driving through our soft defensive scheme like a 2 dollar whore. when varejo is killing us in ways scalabrine could only imagine? Pat Riley has wade and shaq. But doesnt make miami better than us. Thats lame. we have the best starting five in the nba. but somehow lebron offsets the coaching...lol

this was a rough game to deal with, but you gave me a serious laugh there.

Let's face it. It was Flip's fault and it was the player's fault. Billups wasn't hitting his outside shots and forcing too much. Ben was an offensive liability and needs to hit some f$%king free throws. Rip had an off night and Sheed didn't contribute enough. Flip needs to go off on his players and actually yell atthem once in a while.

http://home.comcast.net/~wrathofdiddy/flipplatter.jpg

It's not just Flops fault. But Daly used to make adjustments on the fly, but for sure at half friggin time. And definately by the next game. I didn't hear about them by the announcers and I haven't noticed anything significant either.

I don't think Flip has really screwed up. I think the players have a bigger hand in this debacle than him.
you copped an attitude in the chatroom about this. but you were the first one to give flip credit for those regular season wins. now you're backing away from him shouldering the same amount of blame on these playoff losses.

odd that i figured his ability to be outcoached so easily wouldnt hamper us until the finals. it got us a lil earlier than expected.

Their team has lebron. Ours doesn't.

Funny how Mike Brown is such a genius with a guy no two players on our team can guard...

And I just said Flip should get fired if we don't win this series, didn't I? I'm just not going to join the whitch-hunt with the rest of you looking to pin all the blame on one guy.

Well when only one thing changes from a championship team, and that thing is the coach, i'd call the hunt justified.

I do think some people are just in such denial about the so-called "talent" on the rest of the roster that they wont admit the players just MIGHT have been the big problem.

Nobody is giving the players a free pass here.

There has been no sense of urgency in this team. They have been making poor decision on the court, they look lackadaisical. As a coach, Flip needs to get on his players when they aren't doing their job. And he failed at that.

Not to mention, he totally fucked up the bench rotation.

If we don't at least make it back to the Finals Flip needs to be canned. But it's not all on his shoulders. Joe did nothing in the off-season to improve the team and Bill Davidson has been pinching his pennies thus we've been giving away quality players instead of adding them. Top to bottom this organization is to blame.

We wont see that sence of urgency untill they're down 6 with 4 minutes left in game 6. Then they'll wake up and say, oh hey, we're in a series.

dont forget the weak as shit adjustments. :(

The bench was absolutely rocking toward the end of the season. Right around the time we got Tony Delk. Now all of a sudden he switches everything. Delk put up something like 6 or 7 straight double-digit scoring games. Now he's getting DNPs or getting pulled after he misses one shot (sound familiar?). Notice how Dice didn't get going untill he was in there for a while? You just have to give these guys more than 2 fucking possessions to get it going.

Flip is being absolutely KILLED by a rook coach. If the season comes to an end in 2 days he NEEDS to be fired. The rotations, the jumpshots, the lacksidasical D (Nice game winning fucking layup from a scrub today), the lack of control. Everything. Give me a coach that will get you 50 wins in the regular season and strong post-season play anyday.

And what about Ben? You think he isn't looking at the Free Agent "Door" right now? He hates Flip and this team is choking. You think he wants to stick around if this team gets bounced early? (Not that him and his 0-for-7 FTs helped a whole lot),

nevermind, FP22 changed his post

The bench was absolutely rocking toward the end of the season. Right around the time we got Tony Delk. Now all of a sudden he switches everything. Delk put up something like 6 or 7 straight double-digit scoring games. Now he's getting DNPs or getting pulled after he misses one shot (sound familiar?). Notice how Dice didn't get going untill he was in there for a while? You just have to give these guys more than 2 fucking possessions to get it going.
he's truly too nervous to think str8. what you see on tv isnt an act. the twitching is worse than ever.

piston's starting to look like the timberwolves now [smilie=undecided.g:

Wonder why........

Co-Signed.

Promises at the start of the season with Flip Saunders:
-Keep the defense (Tilt-Zone and double-team defense on LeBron James? What happened to let LeBron get his and everyone else gets shut down?)
-Install new *FLEX* offense (still the same stagnant offense with more 3s and jumpshots to me)
-Bench burn (8-man rotation in the playoffs, Evans over Delk/Delfino, enough said)

We're getting nothing right now, it's just sickening.

It's only a matter of days before you capitulate on this one kstat.

Regardless of the wat the team played, I have zero confidence in Flips ability to call a play when we need one.

Flips ability to coach in the playoffs was well in question before he even got here.

Just to make it clear to everyone reading this:

I have been against the Flip signing since day one. Since the rumors came out. So its just like all of a sudden i'm flippin out on Flip because he cant coach his way out of an open door, I saw this thing happening from way before the season started. And if my brothers werent banned they could tell you I said we could be looking at a second round exit with him at the helm.

People wonder why players arent getting their share of blame. Oh believe me, theres pleanty of that, but for the most part, its Flips job to put them in a position where they can succeed and he hasnt done that at all.

his knock was that he was a regular season only coach. unfortunately the critics got it right. :(

Dosnt take a damned rocket scientist to figure it out.

The Pistons seem laxadaisical and tense at the same time (if that's possible), and that all stems from Flop. The twitching does seem worse than ever and he's visibly shaken. He seems to be unsure of himself and that really shows with his rotation and playcalling (or lack thereof). Why is Delk getting no run? We have to put players on the floor who can make shots and put up points, because that is just not happening right now.

Mike Brown doesn't even talk and he's Flop's daddy right now. Embarrassing.

Things can change fast, can't they? We're gonna find out a lot about our guys in game 6, and I don't care how bad the refs will be (they'll be bad), or how many shots we rim out (there will be quite a few)... if we don't win, this is the end of our starting five.

Either Rasheed or Ben will be gone.

Either Rasheed or Ben will be gone.
i highly doubt it. its gonna be flip gone long before ben. if anything it would solidify the need to keep ben and get a real coach in here.

Sheed will also be gone if we lose this series.

His head will be the next to roll after Flip.

Between his opening his mouth and not backing it up, to him basically falling apart on the floor, sheed has done a lot more to hurt us this series than Flip.

Ben hasnt slacked off at all this series, but his FTs did cost us that game. if he hits just 2 FTs out of 7, we go to over time, worst-case.

Sheed will also be gone if we lose this series.

His head will be the next to roll after Flip.

Between his opening his mouth and not backing it up, to him basically falling apart on the floor, sheed has done a lot more to hurt us this series than Flip.

Ben hasnt slacked off at all this series, but his FTs did cost us that game. if he hits just 2 FTs out of 7, we go to over time, worst-case.
sheed aint going anywhere. YOU have a problem with him running his mouth. But I have never seen Joe D question sheeds actions on things of that nature. in fact Joe D believes his team is good enough to win the title. so why would he drop anything but the coach?

its alot of pressure coaching in detroit with the team we have. but in the end its the coach who will be blamed. we were a much tougher team last year with alot of the same guys.

All I know is, ever since mid-season, there were certain criticisms against the team and Flip's philosophy that some of us were leveling. And the response was always to point at the record.
Hopefully people will realize that records don't mean shit. In the playoffs you gotta hustle the whole game, you have TO REBOUND GODDAMMIT, and have a productive bench.

Um, Sheed's antics have never had a NEGATIVE effect on the team before....

If we lose this series, Sheed's mouth will be a big reason why.

Joe will definately consider dumping Sheed if Sheed doesnt bounce back from this. Sheed has been a complete no-show since game 3, and he's been the biggest talker. That's not something anybody respects, and CERTAINLY not Joe Dumars.

And I also guarentee that his teamates have aproblem with the fact Sheed opened his mouth and made ANOTHER guarentee after game 4, when he went 3-13 and pissed away the game. Sheed's never done that before.

And if you think that the only problem here is the coach, or that Dumars is dumb enough to think that way, you have your head in the sand.

Sheed fucked up. He fucked up like no Piston has in a playoff series, maybe ever. His head rolls if we lose.

Sheed will also be gone if we lose this series.

His head will be the next to roll after Flip.

Between his opening his mouth and not backing it up, to him basically falling apart on the floor, sheed has done a lot more to hurt us this series than Flip.

Ben hasnt slacked off at all this series, but his FTs did cost us that game. if he hits just 2 FTs out of 7, we go to over time, worst-case.
sheed aint going anywhere. YOU have a problem with him running his mouth. But I have never seen Joe D question sheeds actions on things of that nature. in fact Joe D believes his team is good enough to win the title. so why would he drop anything but the coach?

its alot of pressure coaching in detroit with the team we have. but in the end its the coach who will be blamed. we were a much tougher team last year with alot of the same guys.

If we lose this series, Sheed should follow Flip out the door.

No questions about it.

Um, Sheed's antics have never had a NEGATIVE effect on the team before....

If we lose this series, Sheed's mouth will be a big reason why.

Joe will definately consider dumping SHeed if Sheed doesnt bounce back from this.
you kinda made my point in the first sentence. i doubt joe changes his whole tune on sheed and wipes everything he's done off the list before this series. unlike sheed, flip has no background to protect himself. and he's the coach of the detroit pistons. easiest job on earth to get fired from right now. i'm amazed that sheed is looked at as expendable now by some here as well as ben by a couple. *lol*. reminds me of last offseason when people were begging for sheed for kg trades.

i'm sorry but the coach will get the blunt of the changeover. maybe half the bench also. but the starting will stay in tact. he already invested in it and i dont see him backing down from the guys he believes in easily(if he were that type, then he woulda traded darko a season and a half ago).

jmho.

also for the record i've removed my bitterness. but flip still cant coach well in my opinion. but this was my opinion for awhile. if he wants to prove this label thats been on him even before he came here. this is his last chance.

When a notoriously resiliant and clutch team becomes incredibly not-clutch immediately after a coaching change, it tells me the coach doesn't know what the fuck he's doing.

So Flip takes the blame for Sheed fucking his team over?

Don't think so.

So Flip takes the blame for Sheed fucking his team over?

Don't think so.

Sheed's a bitch too. Don't get me wrong. He takes alot of the blame, but it still doesn't change the fact that this team looks completely lost at the end of games either trying to come back or hold off the other team's comeback. If that's not a coaching issue, I dunno what is...

So Flip takes the blame for Sheed fucking his team over?

Don't think so.
then you're being naive. he will take the blame period. for whatever reason you feel they lost. he'll take the blame. and sheed will still be here. we'd be the dumbest team in the league to trade him for the first time ever that the "team" didnt step up. its actually possible he made the prediction in hopes of getting the inspiration flip obviously wasnt getting from them. they got his back and none of his teammates held issue with it. the truth is they lost as a team. sheed wasnt the only one laying turds. and in that scenario the coach gets the blame.


damn i missed the days when LB took the blame himself so this wouldnt even be a discussion.

So Flip takes the blame for Sheed fucking his team over?

Don't think so.
then you're being naive. he will take the blame period. for whatever reason you feel they lost. he'll take the blame. and sheed will still be here. we'd be the dumbest team in the league to trade him for the first time ever that the "team" didnt step up. its actually possible he made the prediction in hopes of getting the inspiration flip obviously wasnt getting from them.


It wasnt the first guarentee that's going to get his ass traded.

It was the second.

then the third.

All while Sheed was too busy fucking up all over the court and expecting the teamates he hung out to dry to bail him out.

If your head is that far up Rasheed's ass that you cant see that he's just as responsible for this debacle as anyone else, you're too caught up in your wishful thinking.

So Flip takes the blame for Sheed fucking his team over?

Don't think so.

Sheed's a bitch too. Don't get me wrong. He takes alot of the blame, but it still doesn't change the fact that this team looks completely lost at the end of games either trying to come back or hold off the other team's comeback. If that's not a coaching issue, I dunno what is...

There has been coaching AND player issues in this series.

If Flip goes, so should the players who fucked up royally.

There has been coaching AND player issues in this series.

If Flip goes, so should the players who fucked up royally.
and theres the truth of whose ass kstat has his head stuck up. good ole flip. nuff said. hmmm were you saying this when the spurs beat us last year? i bet you were saying LB fucked up. i know LB had enough balls to shoulder the blame. if you think this is a sheed love fest, you're retarded. this aint about sheed. its about the core. my heads up no ones ass. unlike yourself running in to use yourself as a human shield for flip. :rolleyes:

There has been coaching AND player issues in this series.

If Flip goes, so should the players who fucked up royally.
and theres the truth of whose ass kstat has his head stuck up. good ole flip. nuff said. hmmm were you saying this when the spurs beat us last year? i bet you were saying LB fucked up. i know LB had enough balls to shoulder the blame. if you think this is a sheed love fest, you're retarded. this aint about sheed. its about the core. my heads up no ones ass. unlike yourself running in to use yourself as a human shield for flip. :rolleyes:


I'm fully prepared to support flip saunders being fired, desipte the fact you conveniently gloss over that fact.

And yes, Sheed has done everything possible to sabotage our series, short of shooting at the wrong basket.

Fact: I'm willing to admit Flip should be fired.

Fact: You're too bust blowing Rasheed to admit that he might have to go also. You also seem to be too occupied with your task to notice that I SAID FLIP SHOULD BE FIRED.

How someone can defend one guy and not the other is just blatent favoratism.

There has been coaching AND player issues in this series.

If Flip goes, so should the players who fucked up royally.
and theres the truth of whose ass kstat has his head stuck up. good ole flip. nuff said. hmmm were you saying this when the spurs beat us last year? i bet you were saying LB fucked up. i know LB had enough balls to shoulder the blame. if you think this is a sheed love fest, you're retarded. this aint about sheed. its about the core. my heads up no ones ass. unlike yourself running in to use yourself as a human shield for flip. :rolleyes:


I'm fully prepared to support flip saunders being fired, desipte the fact you conveniently gloss over that fact.

And yes, Sheed has done everything possible to sabotage our series, short of shooting at the wrong basket.

Fact: I'm willing to admit Flip should be fired.

Fact: You're too bust blowing Rasheed to admit that he might have to go also. You also seem to be too occupied with your task to notice that I SAID FLIP SHOULD BE FIRED.

How someone can defend one guy and not the other is just blatent favoratism.

interesting that you are bent on making this about sheed.

FACT:you're not willing to admit he is getting outcoached. you just have no argument against him being fired if he loses. so why would you say otherwise?

Fact: it aint about rasheed. but keep believing that. the prospect of you being flips lackey with no one else sucking anybodys dick like you did his is too much for you i guess. :rolleyes:

theres no defense of rasheed. its a defense of the core. its not breaking because flip couldnt get it past the second round(which coincides with his history, not the teams). his background is one of many playoff failures. the cores was more successful before he got here if we lose. Yet somehow one of their heads are gonna roll. Once again i say you're being naive. You're thinking about what you would do, not what Joe would do. Give me a good reason Joe D breaks up a champioship competitive core when its obvious that the coaching is flawed? I didnt say a reason. I said a good reason. Beyond your logic and mines. Something undeniable enough for you to somehow swear that we are kicking out rasheed or whoever, if we lose.

Um, what Joe would do?

Safe to say Joe doesnt tolerate someone doing what sheed has done in this series. Nobody on the old bad boys would have been allowed to do this, and Joe wont take this crap from sheed, either.

It's also just as obvious that Sheed has been every bit as flawed as the coaching.

And no I do not buy that this team has as much heart and desire it had in 2004. It has shown no such thing in the playoffs.

If nothing else, Sheed would have to be removed from the starting lineup.

Sheed's the most fickle starter on the team, and they can't continue to be at the mercy of his crazy head. Sheed's contributions have to be a bonus, they can't be the crucial element.

Next season, it would be nice to see Dice as the new starting PF, with an additional post scorer added off the bench. We need someone to go to on post-ups, and obviously Sheed has problems doing that consistenty now.

Gutz,

Are you saying that Sheed is free from any blame placed on him?

Because reading your posts gives me the impression that you place all of the blame solely at Flip's feet and none at the players'. That's something that I disagree with and I think that's what Kstat is saying.

Um, what Joe would do?

Safe to say Joe doesnt tolerate someone doing what sheed has done in this series. Nobody on the old bad boys would have been allowed to do this, and Joe wont take this crap from sheed, either.

It's also just as obvious that Sheed has been every bit as flawed as the coaching.

And no I do not buy that this team has as much heart and desire it had in 2004. It has shown no such thing in the playoffs.
nope this team has no inspiring heart and desire coaching at all. great leadership from the coaching position either. :p

But in the end you still have brought me nothing undeniable. terms like "safe to say" are very out of place in your post. its pretty unsafe to say Joe would do what YOU would do. also you seem to forget the chicago sweep debacle. the only difference is that joe thankfully isnt jack mckloskey. maybe you think he is.

but once again the dumping of sheed or any core member is drastic beyond the realm of logical thought and you've said nothing to prove it to be otherwise. hopefully your next response will actually address this.

But in the end you still have brought me nothing undeniable.

If Sheed doesnt respond, then dumping him is just as undeniable as dumping flip after the series is over.


but once again the dumping of sheed or any core member is drastic beyond the realm of logical thought and you've said nothing to prove it to be otherwise.

Are you retarded?

yikes.

what do we get if we trade sheed? im guessing, not much.

what do we get if ben walks?

who's the coach we bring in to replace flip? i bet 90% of the posters on here cheered when LB left town. its been the mantra of this team since day one of the flip era that the players are in charge. i think the only coach you could bring in that would work would have to be a bona fide top of the line coach that the players respect. sheed would give mike brown a wedgie if they brought his clueless ass in here.

flip hasnt been great, but he shouldnt be the difference in this series. chauncy billups maybe had the worst game of his career tonight.

this isnt the first time the pistons have backed themselves into a corner.

flip hasnt been great, but he shouldnt be the difference in this series. chauncy billups maybe had the worst game of his career tonight.

Agreed.


what do we get if we trade sheed? im guessing, not much.

Also agreed.

The problem is, it wasnt that he just didnt do anything, Sheed was a NEGATIVE in this series. I've never seen a single Piston player fuck up over a series as badly as Rasheed Wallace fucked up in this one.

If he doesnt get dealt, then his ability to fuck up our season sure has to get lessened. He should not be a critical cog in this team anymore. Make him a 6th man or something. Anything except where he is now.

Gutz,

Are you saying that Sheed is free from any blame placed on him?.
nope. i'm saying it doesnt warrant him being ousted. billups is just as confident right now and hasnt played much better. i already said the team deserves the blame too. the fan in you singles sheed out. but as a gm thats a lil more drastic thinking. if the team isnt playing to its capability, the coach needs to go.

you equated the all or nothing blaming of rasheed and flip. i never said flip was the only reason we are fucked up nor did i say sheed was exempt. but this is the fire flip thread, not the lol@the pistons thread. so yea i'm laying it down on him mercilessly. oh well. he doesnt blame himself anyways.

But in the end you still have brought me nothing undeniable.

If Sheed doesnt respond, then dumping him is just as undeniable as dumping flip after the series is over.


but once again the dumping of sheed or any core member is drastic beyond the realm of logical thought and you've said nothing to prove it to be otherwise.

Are you retarded?
no but you are. you swear sheed is getting dumped but agree theres nothing to get in return. genius. lmao:rolleyes:

nope. i'm saying it doesnt warrant him being ousted.

If Rasheed dunked the ball on the wrong basket you'd say we should still keep him. I know this because that's really the only thing he HASNT done wrong in this series. So your vote really doesnt mean much.


billups is just as confident right now and hasnt played much better.

Billups wasnt the guy that made 15 guarentees, failed miserably, and then made MORE guarentees after he fucked up the first time.

Sheed making the 1st guarntee was ok, but he should have SHUT THE FUCK UP after the first one, and he just kept running his damn mouth. He embarrassed the entire team by doing that.


i never said flip was the only reason we are fucked up

Uh, by saying Flip's the only guy that should get dumped, thats EXACTLY what youre saying...

If nothing else, Sheed would have to be removed from the starting lineup.

Sheed's the most fickle starter on the team, and they can't continue to be at the mercy of his crazy head. Sheed's contributions have to be a bonus, they can't be the crucial element.

Next season, it would be nice to see Dice as the new starting PF, with an additional post scorer added off the bench. We need someone to go to on post-ups, and obviously Sheed has problems doing that consistenty now. Yeah, but there's no friggin way Joe D gives up that much salary to a bench player, right? And it might be an act of faith to rely on Dice not only to stay healthy for 82 games as a starter, but to provide interior defense.

Man, I don't know what we're going to do. I don't like what we have, but I don't like the alternatives either. That's why Joe D makes the big bucks.

IMO Chauncey has played worse than Sheed under the circumstances. Sheed's hurt. I can't really knock him for the last 2 games. I can knock him for the talking and for playing like crap in game 3. But the man's hurt. Chauncey on the other hand... WTF? Bad shots left and right, horrible turnovers have popped up out of nowhere, and why is he intentionally fouling Lebron when he's already got 5 fouls with over 2 minutes left? Was it just a mental lapse or is he just retarded?

Chauncey's the guy if someone should go based off THIS post-season performance.

I definately think this team needs a low-post player though. Someone who will stick down there. And someone with some quickness off the dribble on the perimeter. A Devin Harris, Tony Parker, Barbosa type of guy who can break down the D.

nope. i'm saying it doesnt warrant him being ousted.

If Rasheed dunked the ball on the wrong basket you'd say we should still keep him. I know this because that's really the only thing he HASNT done wrong in this series. So your vote really doesnt mean much.


billups is just as confident right now and hasnt played much better.

Billups wasnt the guy that made 15 guarentees, failed miserably, and then made MORE guarentees after he fucked up the first time.

Sheed making the 1st guarntee was ok, but he should have SHUT THE FUCK UP after the first one, and he just kept running his damn mouth. He embarrassed the entire team by doing that.


i never said flip was the only reason we are fucked up

Uh, by saying Flip's the only guy that should get dumped, thats EXACTLY what youre saying...

lol...you're personally mad at sheed. try getting over it before your next reply. and technically i think his assistants should get the boot too.:p

And yes Flip is the odd man out. but i guess this harder to fathom when you ignore his history of not coaching well in the playoffs, and him getting outcoached by mike brown so far. if you ignore all that its totally unfair.:rolleyes:

but your point that somehow we should dump sheed with not much to get in return, and/or push him out of the offense as if he's the only cog is kinda off. on top of that you swear by it. even worse you swear that joe dumars will swear by it. when you go that far you're being naive IMO. you're entitled to want sheed vanished from the face of the earth. but acting as if he or any other core member is surely gone isnt right.

Yeah, but there's no friggin way Joe D gives up that much salary to a bench player, right? .

If we have to trade Sheed for a lesser PF but someone that will score on the low block, then so be it.

All I know is if Sheed doesn't redeem himself and NOW, then it's time for a change in the starting 5. His mental fuckup in the finals last year was bad but tolerable. This mental fuckup isn't. That would make two playoffs out of three that he's brain-farted us to the brink of elimination.

If we have to trade Sheed for a lesser PF but someone that will score on the low block, then so be it.



Who though? I don't see our options.

Yeah, but there's no friggin way Joe D gives up that much salary to a bench player, right? .

If we have to trade Sheed for a lesser PF but someone that will score on the low block, then so be it.

All I know is if Sheed doesn't redeem himself and NOW, then it's time for a change in the starting 5. His mental fuckup in the finals last year was bad but tolerable. This mental fuckup isn't.
thats your entitled opinion kstat. just lay off the "joe d thinks like me" Kstat facts. ;)

If we have to trade Sheed for a lesser PF but someone that will score on the low block, then so be it.



Who though? I don't see our options.


I'd prefer to wait for Sheed to dig his own grave before entertaining the thought, as I'm waiting for Flip.

They're still both fully capable of pulling themselves out of the flame. But I want to see them prove that they want to be on this team bad enough to do it.

Sheed isn't a total undesirable around the NBA. I'm sure Joe could get SOMETHING in return for him.

And yes Flip is the odd man out. but i guess this harder to fathom when you ignore his history of not coaching well in the playoffs, and him getting outcoached by mike brown so far. if you ignore all that its totally unfair.:rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, I'm furious at Flip right now. But this notion that Flip was a terrible playoff coach is unfair. Almost every year his team wasn't the favorite to win the series, and I think two or three times they were going against the eventual Western conference champs. The one year they were favored, they made it to the WCF but lost to the Lakers.

But it hardly matters. He's getting outcoached by Mike Brown RIGHT NOW, and that's all I care about.

Don't get me wrong, I'm furious at Flip right now. But this notion that Flip was a terrible playoff coach is unfair. Almost every year his team wasn't the favorite to win the series, and I think two or three times they were going against the eventual Western conference champs. The one year they were favored, they made it to the WCF but lost to the Lakers.

But it hardly matters. He's getting outcoached by Mike Brown RIGHT NOW, and that's all I care about.

The thing is. The writing is on the wall here. I can see exactly why his teams have lost in the past. No one getting on their case about defensive rotations (blown rotation gave gooden a game-winning layup) or defensive fucking rebounds. No one getting on their case for bad shots. Poor play calling down the stretch. Poor rotations. All jumpshots, nothing easy. The list goes on and on. Everything points to a bad playoff coach without even looking at records.

And I don't care about him getting beat by teams with a couple more wins. This team used to rise to that challenge. Indiana, LA, Miami, etc. Those teams had better records. I don't want a coach that can NEVER get out of a series with a team that is relatively equal, much less get knocked out by a much worse team.

The hard part I've had evaluating Flip and Minny was the Joe Smith and Malik Sealy situations which were beyond Flip's control. Minny had to do a number of fuck-nut things as a result of those holes (e.g. letting Chauncey go and gambling on Terrell Brandon in the hopes of not having to use their MLE on a PG, overpaying Wally) and always seemed just a player or two short of doing great things. The one time they get in some real players, they do a deep run. They fuck up the next year when McHale doesn't address the obvious issues with Peewell (if you're not gonna pay him, you better fucking trade him, and he was a big expiring so worth a lot) and Sam-I-Am (good but gimpy, needs a backup PG steadier than Troy Hair-do).

Flip got his players to play to the level they were capable of then, and that's about all I expected out of him here. Of course, sometimes you need to get your players to play -beyond- what they think they're capable of -- what I had expected out of LB. But I didn't think our starting 5 would need any more of that, and I suspect JD felt similarly. I bet the thinking was, we get Flip in, ride the starting 5 who know how to win to a few more 'ships, and figure out where we're a should rebuilding-time come up (probably the year both Rip and Rasheed's contracts expire).

I'm disappointed in Flip's inability to play the bench and make adjustments (we need D as in Delfino, Davis, or Delk, not D as in Dumbfuck!). I'm even more disappointed with our starting 5 (apart from Tayshaun, who overall has played pretty well against Bron Bron). Ben can't make a fucking FT! Rasheed can't keep his goddamn mouth shut and is starting to sound like Donkey. Chauncey is turning into Eric Snow's bitch, for fuck's sake! Rip has been average, but should be boring a new hole into Flip Murray's asshole.

i think it goes without saying that the next game is huge for the future of this team as we know it.

i can't imagine JoeD standing pat with this team possibly getting bumped out of the 2nd round.

I haven't liked Flip all year, he's worried me with a lot of coaching decisions he's made. However, placing the blame on Flip for the predicament that he Pistons are in right now is rediculous. Yes, he needs to yell at his players - but they are playing like horseshit right now. They don't care, they're over-confident, they want the game just handed to them. Chauncey needs to take control of this series like he is capable of doing.

Fuck the players. They're to blame.

When a notoriously resiliant and clutch team becomes incredibly not-clutch immediately after a coaching change, it tells me the coach doesn't know what the fuck he's doing.

Best post in this thread. Backs are against the wall now, lets see if the old Pistons are still in there somewhere.

I gotta say. Rips a pussy for that last play. WTF was that weak shit? Its not the first time he's done it, but damn. It was bad.

When a notoriously resiliant and clutch team becomes incredibly not-clutch immediately after a coaching change, it tells me the coach doesn't know what the fuck he's doing.
Best post in this thread. Backs are against the wall now, lets see if the old Pistons are still in there somewhere.

in Flip's defense, the team's had many clutch moments all season long.

you can't really blame Flip for Rip missing the bunny in game 4, Ben bricking two FT's in game 5, Tayshaun getting his hook swatted in game 5, or Rip putting up that BS effort in the last possession in game 5.

I don't see Flip getting canned no matter how this all turns out.

We're still paying LB and now we expect that the penny pinching old man is going to pay Flip AND a new coach?

Not likely.

Well, we can always beg LB to come back. I know i'd be the first in line.

Haahaaa,


School project for the day:

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8934/fire3mz.swf

I don't see Flip getting canned no matter how this all turns out.

We're still paying LB and now we expect that the penny pinching old man is going to pay Flip AND a new coach?

Not likely.

Exactly right. Remember Davidson's turned into a cheap ass as it is. If he isn't going to go a penny poer the lux tax he isn't going to like paying 2 coach's who are no longer here. Were stuck with the Flip.

Well, then I hope most of you love regular season successes.

Never in my 20 years of living have I been this pissed off at a team, and I am a die-hard Lions/Tigers/Wolverines fan. Like I said last night: This team is a fucking disgrace. The players, coaches, management, fans, and everyone associated with this fucking team is to blame. NO ONE is exempt in my eyes. Some big changes are needed around here(not the board, but the team, but i'm sure you already knew that. but this is just to clarify, you know? right.....).


Fuck this whole team. Move them to fucking Baltimore for all I care.

How are the fans to blame?

Haahaaa,


School project for the day:

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8934/fire3mz.swf

lol :D

How are the fans to blame?They haven't booed our players yet.

How are the fans to blame?They haven't booed our players yet.


Yes they have. The crowd yesterday was shameful after how excited the CLE fans were just to be playing with us. I understand expectations, but there was little support that wasn't being drummed up by the areana.

When a notoriously resiliant and clutch team becomes incredibly not-clutch immediately after a coaching change, it tells me the coach doesn't know what the fuck he's doing.

Best post in this thread. Backs are against the wall now, lets see if the old Pistons are still in there somewhere.

Or the most bullshit post in the thread, it's hard to decipher. The only thing that happened after the coaching change was a 35-5 record and a TON of nut riding on both the players and Flip. If anything, Flip's influence has worn off and their back to their old selves, only turning it on when they absolutely have to. Down 3-1 to Orlando with Carlisle. Down 3-2 against Jersey after raping them the first 2 games. Down 3-2 against the Spurs last year, all predicaments that could have been avoided if they weren't so damn lazy. Flip has made some suspect moves, but he's no where near being the guy at fault for the bullshit I've been seeing for the last 3 games...that's the bullshit of the 5 starters that I've seen one time too fucking many in the last 3 years. Blaming Flip as the major difference is absolutely ludicrous.

What?

You must be lying. This team would NEVER lose games 3, 4, and 5 under Larry Brown....

kstat was waiting all night for someone to endorse his boy flip. lmao. nows he's gonna milk it.

What?

You must be lying. This team would NEVER lose games 3, 4, and 5 under Larry Brown....

You mean like they did to New Jersey in 2004? Oh yeah...oops. No team of Flips has ever scored 77, 72, and 84 in three straight games, so maybe this is the Pistons going back to Larry ball, where they struggled to score for 5 minutes at a time. Again, we've got a team that is underperforming and being lazy as they always have been, I fully expect business as usual in game 6. I'd also like a fair game called by the refs, but that's probably too much to ask.

As I said before, it's going to be 5 on 8, and that crowd is going to be insane.

Nothing but the Pistons best effort is going to get the job done, IMO.

Since we're talking about variables that changed this series--Flip in particular--the biggest one might be Justin Hughes. Fact is, we absolutely throttled the Cavs the first two games, but without Larry, the Cavs are playing much better defense.

First 7 quarters of this series, we averaged 27.3 pts/quarter
Games 3,4,5 (no L. Hughes) we averaged 19.4 pts/quarter

Did we change our offensive scheme after game 2? I don't think so. But Cleveland's defense sure changed. Maybe not the scheme, but certainly its intensity.

the pistons have been down for about 144 streight minutes. theyve almost never had the lead since game 2. coaching his hurting us, but alot of it has to be effort.

reggie said as much last night, cavs are getting all the loose balls. pistons all of a sudden are committing a ton of turnovers. the offense has obviously gotten lazy.

the pistons have been down for about 144 streight minutes. theyve almost never had the lead since game 2. coaching his hurting us, but alot of it has to be effort.

reggie said as much last night, cavs are getting all the loose balls. pistons all of a sudden are committing a ton of turnovers. the offense has obviously gotten lazy.I think Cleveland's suffocating defense has forced us to make gambles we normally wouldn't make. We're not getting any easy baskets--the Cavs are choking the lane--so people like Chauncey are heaving balls downcourt to start a fastbreak, throwing the ball out of bounds.

The rebounding deficit is huge, in part, b/c we're zoning up our defense on James, and we're not boxing out our man. There's a lack of accountability.

I don't think the offense is lazy, I think it's frustrated.

What?

You must be lying. This team would NEVER lose games 3, 4, and 5 under Larry Brown....


I agree with you. I agree with most of your stances. Flip deserves blame but you cant pin it all on him. Sheed has dogged it a bit, and Billups is playing not good ball is the best way I can describe it.

It just worries me is all. What i'm saying (i'm not sure what Gutz is saying) I feel more confident with LB on the bench down 3-2 rather than Flip. Thats all i'm saying.

[quote=Kstat]
It just worries me is all. What i'm saying (i'm not sure what Gutz is saying) I feel more confident with LB on the bench down 3-2 rather than Flip. Thats all i'm saying.
im saying a few things. but i'm saying that also. LB woulda took all the blame on his team losing(much like he did when sheed fucked up on horry last year). Flip is talking about executing offensive plays still.
and its spreading ...aaahhhhhh

"We're just not really playing that great right now and that's our offense. He doesn't have any effect on that. He's been great on his offense but our offense just isn't good right now."

Exerpt from questions asked to Tony Delk:
http://www.nba.com/playoffs2006/mailbox_delk.html

Q: What's the most important thing to have to be in the NBA?
-- Ashley, Quincy, MI

Delk: A brain.

Flip is talking about executing offensive plays still.
and its spreading ...aaahhhhhh

"We're just not really playing that great right now and that's our offense. He doesn't have any effect on that. He's been great on his offense but our offense just isn't good right now."

But in this case its warranted. Sure that last bucket was soft as hell, but its not like the Pistons aren't stopping the Cavs. They just aren't moving on offense and so are sucking themselves into isos.

Both Flip and Sheed took themselves off the hook.

At least for another 2 days.

Both Flip and Sheed took themselves off the hook.

At least for another 2 days.
yea sheed was totally on the verge of being dumped by kstat.:p :rolleyes:

Flip ain't off the hook... Really, we played this game identical to the last 2. The difference is Sheed hit more shots.

I don't see why they don't go to Tayshaun and Sheed everytime in the post. They've got no one who has a prayer against them.

All I heard was the BS about how Flip was couldnt motivate his players like Larry Brown.

THey played pretty damn motivated tonight.

I agree with Kstat. They did come out and play a lot harder tonight.

As far as Flip is concerned, I'll wait until the offseason toshare my opinion, as with the rest of the team.

As far as Flip is concerned, I'll wait until the offseason toshare my opinion, as with the rest of the team.

That's easily the best decision.

As much as I like Flip as a coach, I admit that wins and losses is what it boils down to.

That goes the same for people that DONT like him as a coach. If he wins, let him be.

All I heard was the BS about how Flip was couldnt motivate his players like Larry Brown.

THey played pretty damn motivated tonight.
yes they ouplayed the typical gameplan. in the end it was their desire to win that won it. the gameplan didnt make much of a dent still. to be fair to him he made one move i'll give him credit for in FINALLY switching the zone up late in the first half to get cleveland out of the paint. but he never went back to that zone unfortunately.

but i'm doubting Flip was the supreme motivator in this one. but its typical that you give him the credit on the win and not on the loss. Flip is the winning coach. he saved his job. but its only his job on the line.

Just like when larry brown coached, it was all the players desire that made them play hard, right?

Can't be two-faced about it.

When we lost game 5, it was all about FLip not being able to motivate his team.

When we win game 6, all of a sudden coaches cant motivate players, players only motivate themselves.

[QUOTE=Kstat}
That goes the same for people that DONT like him as a coach. If he wins, let him be.[/QUOTE]
back to the same cop out. "we won so dont diss him", yet you play human shield when we lose and blame him. which is it gonna be kstat?

That goes the same for people that DONT like him as a coach. If he wins, let him be.
back to the same cop out. "we won so dont diss him", yet you play human shield when we lose and blame him. which is it gonna be kstat?

All I'm saying is don't be a hypocrite.

I hear the "bottom line" shit when we lose, and when we win I hear excuses of why flip didnt do anything right.

If we lost this game, I said flip should be fired.

Same goes for game 7.

But if we win these games, Flip gets his feet taken out of the fire, at least for now.

Bottom line in coaching is wins and losses. You win, you get to stay on the island.

Just like when larry brown coached, it was all the players desire that made them play hard, right?

Can't be two-faced about it.
yea it was all the players after he put it in them. after he improved tayshaun and ben's offense(though it's regressed in flip's tenure) it was definately the players after that. flip has never inspired the team. but in fairness i dont think that was ever expected of him. he was expected to bring a great offense and gameplan. he hasnt really held up his end as of late there.

All I'm saying is don't be a hypocrite.
follow your own advice.;)

BTW Kstat, props on your successful game thread on your old board. Hope you won't be a stranger now that they are calling for your return (though maybe we will see more of Diddy because of it). Its been nice having you here.

I'd post this on the other board but I haven't been able to post there for about half the season for some reason.

It's just a superstition.

I ddint really even make the game thread. They just bumped up my game thread from game 6 of last year's finals......

Both Flip and Sheed took themselves off the hook.

At least for another 2 days.


I'm still not sure why Sheed was on the hook. You were saying about the Guaransheeds, but if Ben and the boys don't care, why should we? If they do care and want him to stop, I'm with ya on that. I like the GSheeds bc it brings some identity, cockiness, etc to the team. Just my opinion...but I'm right.

Sheed ankle is clearly agrevated and he showed up big tonight. He deserves his props tonight and isn't on ANY hook with me.

Go Pistons!


edit..and for Flip...he's still on the hook not that he did anything bad hook, but I'm still not sure if he's the guy hook.

You were saying about the Guaransheeds, but if Ben and the boys don't care, why should we?

There were rumors coming out of the locker room that they DID care that Sheed wasnt backing up his guarentees.

Sheed was on the hook because of his poor play, which would be excused by the ankle except for the fact he put his team on the spot by talking big and coming up very short.

You were saying about the Guaransheeds, but if Ben and the boys don't care, why should we?

There were rumors coming out of the locker room that they DID care that Sheed wasnt backing up his guarentees.

Sheed was on the hook because of his poor play, which would be excused by the ankle except for the fact he put his team on the spot by talking big and coming up very short.
1.) a rumor that we are blaming one guy for our losses is a joke IMO. has never been the character of the core. i doubt that rumor and whoever came up with it would need some serious evidence. but any rumor that falls in line with your scapegoating sheed has to be true. :p

2.)whose hook was he ever on besides yours? show me proof of such. i basically tell you that Flip gets the blunt of the blame as coach, and you start a jihad on rasheed for predictions. thats part of coaching in the nba. if your team doesnt live up to its expected progress, the coach is gone. not your key players.

del harris in LA wasn't doing badly. but wasnt winning the playoff games they felt should be won. they felt it was a championship team. so the 61 win season a year before wasnt enough to keep them from firing him early in the following season.


Harris, 61, was in his fifth season. He guided the Lakers to a 224-116 record and improved their regular-season record in four consecutive years, a feat accomplished by only eight other coaches in NBA history.
doesnt sound like firing material. but high expectation like what you deal with in detroit will make it irrelevent sometimes. So yea Flip is on the hook until we win a title. if thats unfair then dont take the job and coach a team with lower expectations..

2.)whose hook was he ever on besides yours? show me proof of such. i basically tell you that Flip gets the blunt of the blame as coach, and you start a jihad on rasheed for predictions. thats part of coaching in the nba. if your team doesnt live up to its expected progress, the coach is gone. not your key players.

Why are the key players absolved from the blame?

Flip has failed undoubtedly but so have the players (Sheed and Billups, especially).

2.)whose hook was he ever on besides yours? show me proof of such. i basically tell you that Flip gets the blunt of the blame as coach, and you start a jihad on rasheed for predictions. thats part of coaching in the nba. if your team doesnt live up to its expected progress, the coach is gone. not your key players.

Why are the key players absolved from the blame?

Flip has failed undoubtedly but so have the players (Sheed and Billups, especially).


Easy answer-salary cap.

tought answer-they've done it before.

2.)whose hook was he ever on besides yours? show me proof of such. i basically tell you that Flip gets the blunt of the blame as coach, and you start a jihad on rasheed for predictions. thats part of coaching in the nba. if your team doesnt live up to its expected progress, the coach is gone. not your key players.

Why are the key players absolved from the blame?

Flip has failed undoubtedly but so have the players (Sheed and Billups, especially).
dont ask me why. i'm just the messenger. this is how elite teams do business. if your personel has a certain level of expectation invested in it, then you look to the guy you hired to get that out of them for taking on the blunt of it. but i'm getting a lil' tired of these responses that refer to me saying its all Flip's fault. At some point maybe the core's jobs could be on the line. but not immediately and not on some prediction scapegoat theory like i'm hearing now. why dont you ask del harris why he doesnt have a job after leading the lakers to a 61-21 record. he'll tell you i'm telling you about why Flip would get fired. because he was expected to do more.

that doesnt mean its all his fault. but its all his responsibility. i'm not saying thats fair. but thats the way things go. if Flip had a history of winning titles it would be different. much like if del harris had such a history, the lakers wouldnt have fired him and eventually ran with phil jackson. the core has proven its value in winning championships and at the very least getting to the finals. it would be different if they hadnt had any success beforehand, which flip has not really.

those coaches were all given more than one season.

dont ask me why. i'm just the messenger. this is how elite teams do business. if your personel has a certain level of expectation invested in it, then you look to the guy you hired to get that out of them for taking on the blunt of it. but i'm getting a lil' tired of these responses that refer to me saying its all Flip's fault. At some point maybe the core's jobs could be on the line. but not immediately and not on some prediction scapegoat theory like i'm hearing now. why dont you ask del harris why he doesnt have a job after leading the lakers to a 61-21 record. he'll tell you i'm telling you about why Flip would get fired. because he was expected to do more.

Has anyone questioned that Flip shouldn't be fired?

I have mentioned multiple times that he should be fired, regardless of the outcome of this series. The only person that came close to saying Flip should be kept is Kstat and even he said that he should be fired if we lose this series. So I don't get where you got this idea that you are the only person calling for his removal when everybody is saying the same exact fucking thing?

Only difference is, you refuse to blame the players (atleast not yet) and I do.


that doesnt mean its all his fault. but its all his responsibility. i'm not saying thats fair. but thats the way things go. if Flip had a history of winning titles it would be different. much like if del harris had such a history, the lakers wouldnt have fired him and eventually ran with phil jackson. the core has proven its value in winning championships and at the very least getting to the finals. it would be different if they hadnt had any success beforehand, which flip has not really.

Who does? If winning the championships were the standard, every coach not named Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich and Larry Brown should be fired.

2.)whose hook was he ever on besides yours? show me proof of such. i basically tell you that Flip gets the blunt of the blame as coach, and you start a jihad on rasheed for predictions. thats part of coaching in the nba. if your team doesnt live up to its expected progress, the coach is gone. not your key players.

Why are the key players absolved from the blame?

Flip has failed undoubtedly but so have the players (Sheed and Billups, especially).

I'm kinda liking 'responsibility for losses' instead of blame. Splitting hairs? Prolly.

Generic responsibility in Sports breaks down like this for me...Owner, GM, coach, captains, leaders on and off the court, players, water boys.

Davidson has done everything JoeD asked of him, JoeD has done pretty much everything he can to get the right mix here, Coach has to know the players, get them ready to play, MAKE ADJUSTMENTS ON THE FLY IN THE PLAYOFFS, Captains have to coach but lead on the floor, leaders same thing.

I think if you asked Flip he'd say he's partly repsonsible. We trapped LBJ the first 2 games and it worked, then LBJ had like 10 assists in G3 and 10 in G4. So LBJ starts passing and not much adjusting, imo. G5 he went for 30?..didn't need to pass apparently. There must have been adjustment but I didn't see them and they didn't work.

CBill and Ben are next in the line of leaders.

CBill might have started this slide with his play in G3. He did NOTHING, imo, to keep this team playing like we did in Detroit. K pointed that out and was right on.

Ben does so much that doesn't make the stat sheet that reasonable peeps can disagree about his contributions. He did not take over games like he has though, and at some point I expected him too, but he didn't. He used to flat out win games for us with his dominance of the game. All I'm saying is we lost games 3, 4 and 5. I'll back off Ben bc I'm a newbie and criticizing Ben is like going to church and saying "God ain't getting it done"

Sheed, Tay and Rip have all played decent. I don't look to them to take over games although they can. Tay kicked serious ass in G1? or 2. Sheed had a helluva game with a severly sprained ankle last night. He stepped up, way up, imo.

There, thats my long, dumbass, 2 cent reply to this fucking series. And after tomorrow, I'm archiving this entire fucking series. Don't want to erase but just forget about this piece of shit series for a while.

Go Pistons.

Flip's job security should be decided by the outcome of the playoffs, plain and simple.

It's impossible to get a coach that everybody likes, and in most cases, nobody likes a coach no matter what he does.

People bitched about Carlisle, they bitched about LB and they bitched about Flip. The grass is always greener on the other side.

Wins and losses are the one thing that is clear cut, and free of distortion. If a coach wins, he's owed the chance to keep his job.

You don't have to like Flip, but if he wins, you can't argue the end result, just like I like him as a coach but I can't argue against losing a series to the Cavaliers.

Who does? If winning the championships were the standard, every coach not named Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich and Larry Brown should be fired.
if they pan out like this coaching for us with the expectations as high as ours are. Then yes they may get the axe. is it fair that rick carlisle has to deal with hurt players all the time? no. but would anyone here see him getting fired as an atrosity? probally not.

winning backgrounds give you more leeway. if poppovich hadnt already won big respect with the spurs with a proven track record, he may have been gone after choking away that 3-1 series lead to the lakers. the same lakers team we demolished.:p

if flip was the high track record coach and the players were low track record players it would be vice versa. best example, miami. if they fall short, who gets the boot? pat riley or the unproven pieces he thought would take them to the top?

Flip had a track record of teaking his teams as far as they could go.

There isnt a single season of Flip Saunders aside from his final one in Minnesota, that you could call a bad one.

Apples and Oranges.

Flip's job security should be decided by the outcome of the playoffs, plain and simple.
finally something that makes sense. no tail end "scapegoat sheed rumor" bs.

theres only 3 choices. title, fired, or very thin ice next year.

Flip had a track record of teaking his teams as far as they could go.

There isnt a single season of Flip Saunders aside from his final one in Minnesota, that you could call a bad one.

Apples and Oranges.
same for del harris. but in the end the result was what it was for both.

Flip's job security should be decided by the outcome of the playoffs, plain and simple.
finally something that makes sense. no tail end "scapegoat sheed rumor" bs.

theres only 3 choices. title, fired, or very thin ice next year.

Scapegoat Sheed?

I wasnt scapegoating Sheed any more than you were scapegoating flip.

Sheed was in just as much jeaporady until he finally decided to show up.

Flip's job security should be decided by the outcome of the playoffs, plain and simple.
finally something that makes sense. no tail end "scapegoat sheed rumor" bs.

theres only 3 choices. title, fired, or very thin ice next year.

Scapegoat Sheed?

I wasnt scapegoating Sheed any more than you were scapegoating flip.

Sheed was in just as much jeaporady until he finally decided to show up.
no i was stating a fact. he takes on the blunt if we lose. you took it as scapegoating and decided to throw sheed in on some silly shit.

they have two different backgrounds and are not in the same boat by any means. unless its the kstat boat.

Flip had a track record of teaking his teams as far as they could go.

There isnt a single season of Flip Saunders aside from his final one in Minnesota, that you could call a bad one.

Apples and Oranges.
same for del harris. but in the end the result was what it was for both.

Del Harris's 61-win Lakers getting humiliated in a 4-game sweep in 1998 by Utah did not qualify as a "good season."

Flip had a track record of teaking his teams as far as they could go.

There isnt a single season of Flip Saunders aside from his final one in Minnesota, that you could call a bad one.

Apples and Oranges.
same for del harris. but in the end the result was what it was for both.

Del Harris getting humiliated in a 4-game sweep in 1998 did not qualify as a "good season."
nor does flip getting axed in the second round. expectations man. blah nevermind you just dont get it.

Flip had a track record of teaking his teams as far as they could go.

There isnt a single season of Flip Saunders aside from his final one in Minnesota, that you could call a bad one.

Apples and Oranges.
same for del harris. but in the end the result was what it was for both.

Del Harris getting humiliated in a 4-game sweep in 1998 did not qualify as a "good season."
nor does flip getting axed in the second round. expectations man. blah nevermind you just dont get it.

AT what point did I say Flip should stay if we lost in the 2nd round?

no i was stating a fact. he takes on the blunt if we lose. you took it as scapegoating and decided to throw sheed in on some silly shit.

they have two different backgrounds and are not in the same boat by any means. unless its the kstat boat.

Why is that?

What has Sheed done that makes him guilt-free? If anything he should shoulder much of the blame, since it was his guarantee(s) and the failure to back them up that put us in the position that we are in currently.

What has Sheed done that makes him guilt-free? If anything he should shoulder much of the blame, since it was his guarantee(s) and the failure to back them up that put us in the position that we are in currently.

He should shoulder much of the blame? His guarantees put us in this position?

IMO, he shouldn't shoulder much of the blame at all. 24 pts on a bum ankle is stepping up. If he didn't perform like he did last night, we'd be wondering which colapse was worse the Wings or the Pistons. And I'm completely serious, if Sheed didn't score the way he did last night, we'd be fishing, imo.

Sheed says what everyone else is thinking, thats all. They all felt it, he said it. When we win it wasn't bc of the GSheed, and when we lose it wasn't bc of the GSheeds.

What has Sheed done that makes him guilt-free? If anything he should shoulder much of the blame, since it was his guarantee(s) and the failure to back them up that put us in the position that we are in currently.

He should shoulder much of the blame? His guarantees put us in this position?

IMO, he shouldn't shoulder much of the blame at all. 24 pts on a bum ankle is stepping up. If he didn't perform like he did last night, we'd be wondering which colapse was worse the Wings or the Pistons. And I'm completely serious, if Sheed didn't score the way he did last night, we'd be fishing, imo.

Sheed says what everyone else is thinking, thats all. They all felt it, he said it. When we win it wasn't bc of the GSheed, and when we lose it wasn't bc of the GSheeds.

If Rasheed scores more than 27 points in the previous 3 games combined Bron Bron would already be in the Bass Master's Classic.

no i was stating a fact. he takes on the blunt if we lose. you took it as scapegoating and decided to throw sheed in on some silly shit.

they have two different backgrounds and are not in the same boat by any means. unless its the kstat boat.

Why is that?

What has Sheed done that makes him guilt-free? If anything he should shoulder much of the blame, since it was his guarantee(s) and the failure to back them up that put us in the position that we are in currently.
why do you continue throw this guilt free shit at me man? i never said that. i never implied that. and it doesnt equate to that. i said he's not the scapegoat. honestly no one is. but the coach takes the responsibility. this is the way sports works period. if george seifert doesnt win the super bowl with the niners he inherited from walsh, he gets fired. Mariucci had San Fran playing good. But they didnt get to the big game, which was the expectations at the time. Thus he's fired. Coaches are measured based on the expectations of the team. Players arent getting canned for making promises of victory that are finally wrong. blame has enough space to go around to everyone. but the expectations of the team are the coaches burden.

So yes, blame sheed for his mishaps. same for billups. but dont think that what they've done over the past years becomes irrelevent. If Flip had something to that effect behind him, he would have more job security. but he doesnt. it is what it is.

Now do you have any questions about my statements that dont involve the false equation "flip + fired= Sheed guilt free"? :p [smilie=zzz.gif]

What has Sheed done that makes him guilt-free? If anything he should shoulder much of the blame, since it was his guarantee(s) and the failure to back them up that put us in the position that we are in currently.

He should shoulder much of the blame? His guarantees put us in this position?

IMO, he shouldn't shoulder much of the blame at all. 24 pts on a bum ankle is stepping up. If he didn't perform like he did last night, we'd be wondering which colapse was worse the Wings or the Pistons. And I'm completely serious, if Sheed didn't score the way he did last night, we'd be fishing, imo.

Sheed says what everyone else is thinking, thats all. They all felt it, he said it. When we win it wasn't bc of the GSheed, and when we lose it wasn't bc of the GSheeds.

If Rasheed scores more than 27 points in the previous 3 games combined Bron Bron would already be in the Bass Master's Classic.

And if Sheed didn't have a bum ankle he might have. But he put up 10 pts in 22 minutes which isn't bad. There are many of those type of performances on the squad in games 3, 4, 5. CBill 3-13, Rips 5-15, CB 6-16 type of performances.

Someone on this team generally steps up. Last night it was Sheed for me. But the responsibility for Bron Bron not fishing yet isn't solely on sheeds shoulders.

If Rasheed scores more than 27 points in the previous 3 games combined Bron Bron would already be in the Bass Master's Classic.

ESPN would have live exclusive coverage, and they'd put in robotic fish in the water to make sure LeBron gets the biggest catch of the day :rolleyes:


And for the record, on my part, i'm still not a Flip fan. Never was, never will be. But the players deserve some of the blame as well. Gutz, I dont understand your stance on this.

This is manufactured dissent. Why are you guys even arguing? I'm sure you'd both agree that players and coach share some degree of fault for this series. So let's see how this thing turns out and then proceed from there. We win tomorrow, who cares about the coach or the players?

ESPN would have live exclusive coverage, and they'd put in robotic fish in the water to make sure LeBron gets the biggest catch of the day :rolleyes:

LOL!

This is manufactured dissent. Why are you guys even arguing?

I'm not aguing. Who's arguing? Why did you say that about arguing? I don't argue. I've never argued. j/k

ESPN would have live exclusive coverage, and they'd put in robotic fish in the water to make sure LeBron gets the biggest catch of the day :rolleyes:

And they'd sink any boat that came within 20 ft of him.

What has Sheed done that makes him guilt-free? If anything he should shoulder much of the blame, since it was his guarantee(s) and the failure to back them up that put us in the position that we are in currently.

He should shoulder much of the blame? His guarantees put us in this position?

IMO, he shouldn't shoulder much of the blame at all. 24 pts on a bum ankle is stepping up. If he didn't perform like he did last night, we'd be wondering which colapse was worse the Wings or the Pistons. And I'm completely serious, if Sheed didn't score the way he did last night, we'd be fishing, imo.

Sheed says what everyone else is thinking, thats all. They all felt it, he said it. When we win it wasn't bc of the GSheed, and when we lose it wasn't bc of the GSheeds.

If Rasheed scores more than 27 points in the previous 3 games combined Bron Bron would already be in the Bass Master's Classic.

And if Sheed didn't have a bum ankle he might have. But he put up 10 pts in 22 minutes which isn't bad. There are many of those type of performances on the squad in games 3, 4, 5. CBill 3-13, Rips 5-15, CB 6-16 type of performances.

Someone on this team generally steps up. Last night it was Sheed for me. But the responsibility for Bron Bron not fishing yet isn't solely on sheeds shoulders.

He didn't have that "bum ankle" in game 3 when he dropped 11 in 36 and Anderson Varajeo made him look like a chump. Everybody has had a few off games this series obviously, but Sheed 1) makes the most money and 2) does all the talking - so I expect more from him. Sheed definitely had a great game last night, but Tayshaun had as much to do with the win as he did.

And for the record, on my part, i'm still not a Flip fan. Never was, never will be. But the players deserve some of the blame as well. Gutz, I dont understand your stance on this.
my stance is simple. you guys responses arent. you respond to shit i didnt say. i said flip should be fired if we dont win a title. thats the expectation. i never scapegoated him or said he's alone in sharing blame. but everyone else seems to think i'm taking blame off of everyone else. not the case at all. but scapegoating sheed and acting like the team was screwed by him is silly. the team screwed itself. we are built on 1-2 players stepping up at any point. nobody stepped up in those losses.

cool. I just didnt understand what you were trying to say. Now I do :)

flip coached a good game 7. hopefully he'll step up his coaching for pat riley. i hope.

Hopefully Gutz Gatsu will stop lying. He told me the other day he was in Rocky. You are such a liar and that is why you disgust me!

Hopefully Gutz Gatsu will stop lying. He told me the other day he was in Rocky. You are such a liar and that is why you disgust !me
yea lets start right now. you're the worst troll ever and the bucks have been out of the playoffs for like a month. yet you're still here talking some of the weakest shit ever. i mean seriously what kind of weak shit is this?


You are such a liar and that is why you disgust me!
LOL ...thats horrible. whats next you're gonna tell me i have bad manners? [smilie=zzz.gif]

Flip just put himself back on the hot seat.

First time in the playoffs I think he actually cost us a game. We'd have been better with no coach at all tonight.

What's the quickest way to make your team hate you? Try the hack-a-shaq.

Then leave ben wallace in there to get humiliated after shaq gets taken out....

This team has obviously turned on Flip. He's done things that have obviously pissed them off. Problem is, hes not going anywhere.

Flip just put himself back on the hot seat.

First time in the playoffs I think he actually cost us a game. We'd have been better with no coach at all tonight.

What's the quickest way to make your team hate you? Try the hack-a-shaq.

And I'm sure you saw the arguing between him and Sheed. 1st he sits out at halfcourt during the huddle. Then, when Flip tries to extend his hand to him as Sheed's walking to the sideline, Sheed swipes it away and says "Get off me Bitch!". Then, at the end of the game when Flip issued the Hack-a-Shaq, Sheed did another obvious gesture that he was pissed at him.

How the hell did they put up with him for 11 years in Minny?

I hate to sound like this, but I dont care, this team needs a black coach.

I like Flip and I think he's a tremendous X's and O's coach, but holy shit what kind of a team did he think he was inheriting?

This cheap bullshit might have worked with lesser players, but not these guys.

I hate to sound like this, but I dont care, this team needs a black coach.

What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

Playing Hack-A-Shaq while leaving Ben in their was total dumbfuckery.

I hate to sound like this, but I dont care, this team needs a black coach.

What does skin color have to do with coaching abilities?

We just need a GOOD coach who will keep these players in check.

I think Flip is smart enough to fix this.

But make no mistake, he HAS to fix this.

Playing Hack-A-Shaq while leaving Ben in their was total dumbfuckery.

Sounds familiar, like leaving sheed on the Bench when every Cleveland big has fouled out.

Or playing Delfino....ever, after never playing him all year long
Or not playing Delk at all, after playing him all year long.

If this team wins anything it's in spite of the league changing the rules for defense, the league fucking em with the whistle, and a coach who is completely clueless, he looks like ALAN FUCKING TRAMMEL OUT THERE.

I hate to sound like this, but I dont care, this team needs a black coach.

What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

call me on AIM, i'm not going to explain on the internet.

Flip just put himself back on the hot seat.

First time in the playoffs I think he actually cost us a game. We'd have been better with no coach at all tonight.

What's the quickest way to make your team hate you? Try the hack-a-shaq.

Then leave ben wallace in there to get humiliated after shaq gets taken out....Sheed was yelling at Flip well before the hack-a-shaq.

I hate to sound like this, but I dont care, this team needs a black coach.As black as Larry Brown?

Like I said, call me on AIM. I cant post what I want to say.

Terry Porter coached plenty of black players to little success... how did Maurice Cheeks do this year? Paul Silas, what's he doing these days? Allen Gentry?

A good coach commands respect. Maybe being black helps, but it's certainly not sufficient. Nor is it necessary. Just ask Pat Riley.

Flip could be darker than Manute Bol. He'd still be stinkin up the place.

Terry Porter coached plenty of black players to little success... how did Maurice Cheeks do this year? Paul Silas, what's he doing these days? Allen Gentry?

A good coach commands respect. Maybe being black helps, but it's certainly not sufficient. Nor is it necessary. Just ask Pat Riley.

Flip could be darker than Manute Bol. He'd still be stinkin up the place.

Like he said, hit him up on AIM so he can explain. Let's just say Anthony has some "insider info"...

Because it bears repeating:


Clearly Flip has ZERO concept of team defense, but where exactly is his "brilliant" offense he was supposed to use to make our team invincible?





What exactly is this retard getting paid for again...?

Terry Porter coached plenty of black players to little success... how did Maurice Cheeks do this year? Paul Silas, what's he doing these days? Allen Gentry?

A good coach commands respect. Maybe being black helps, but it's certainly not sufficient. Nor is it necessary. Just ask Pat Riley.

Flip could be darker than Manute Bol. He'd still be stinkin up the place.

Like he said, hit him up on AIM so he can explain. Let's just say Anthony has some "insider info"...

Yep, and like I said, it dosnt excuse them for their shitty play, but it has more effect that you would think

Fuck a Flip?

There is obviously something going on between the players and flip. We all know Ben hasnt been to happy with him, Sheed called him a bitch, Dyess in the media was saying that we're calling plays that dont work, and jump shots arent going to get it done.

There has to be something going on behind the sceens.

There is obviously something going on between the players and flip. We all know Ben hasnt been to happy with him, Sheed called him a bitch, Dyess in the media was saying that we're calling plays that dont work, and jump shots arent going to get it done.

There has to be something going on behind the sceens. During the game I even saw Tayshaun, the most humble of them all, standing next to Flip on the sideline, explaining/pleading something Flip was getting wrong.

Seems like the players have lost confidence in Flip.

It's looking like the bloom is off the rose as far as our Pistons go. We went from a team of egoless hustlers who relied on team play and outworking our opponents to a group of uncoachable problem children.

We have become what we despised.

Perhaps LB saw some of this coming?

So... Who's next? I think it would an absolutely awful idea to waste another year on Flip. You only get so many chances. I wouldn't want the championship window to shut on our faces with this guy on the sidelines. Talk about a blown opportunity.

[quote=Anthony]

Seems like the players have lost confidence in Flip.
not all of their confidence in him i think. but atleast a little of it i'm sure. This team was raised on meat and potatoes philosophies of good defense and hustle. Now their coach is requesting something different in philosophy and its not working as much. If you were playing 2 years in a system and approach that got you to the finals two years in a row and the new revised approach isnt working. you're not going to like it now. I think he still has his teams attention somewhat. but if we lose monday he'll be in a sticky situation. One thing he doesnt do which screws him over is he never tries to deflect and shoulder the blame. LB was whining about refs, blaming himself for plays that may have cost them the game, and starting whatever other bs he could to keep a portion of the pressure off his players. Flip doesnt ever take in the blame like that. he seems to be scared that he'll make himself look bad or something. its a thing that most coaches do. SVG, phil jackson, Greg Poppovich, and even avery johnson all take in some self criticism and deflect attention to some other stuff. Maybe it doesnt matter. actually im just hoping it doesnt.:o

So... Who's next? I think it would an absolutely awful idea to waste another year on Flip. You only get so many chances. I wouldn't want the championship window to shut on our faces with this guy on the sidelines. Talk about a blown opportunity.
lets talk business. you're going into a big offseason for ben and firing flip will be a hard thing to do. the smart thing may be to get a defensive assistant coach of joe dumars choice to replace sidney "worthless bitch" Lowe.

Firing Flip may, in fact, be necessary to keep Ben from leaving.

Probably not, but if Ben lays it on the line with Joe, what would he do?

LEst I remind you all, Flip's fate hasn't been sealed. Giving up on the Pistons would not be a wise choice at this point.

Rasheed, Ben, Flip: one or more of these men will be gone. We'll see what Joe comes up with.

I'd say Sheed's got one foot out the door right now.

How about Sheed/Evans for Jalen (& his expiring deal) and one of their young players?

WHy dont we just fold the franchise while we're at it...

the players arent going anymore. people need some trade ideas since fun with darko trades are shot down.

Flip sucks but this really is Joe and Bill's fault. Same roster for 3 years except for the bench getting weaker each year.

Flip sucks but this really is Joe and Bill's fault. Same roster for 3 years except for the bench getting weaker each year.Agreed. Our starters are making considerably more money than they were three years ago. Rasheed, Tay, Rip locked up; Billups and Ben pending. So it was a choice b/t allocating money for the bench and allocating it for the starters. As the salary of the starters went up, the salary--and performance--of the bench went down. Suppose that's where Davidson comes in--making Joe make that choice. Or maybe Joe consulted with Donald Rumsfeld to get it done on the cheap.

Kind of reminds me of Snack of Showbee.

Flip sucks but this really is Joe and Bill's fault. Same roster for 3 years except for the bench getting weaker each year.
Our bench this year certainly isn't -weaker- than our bench last year.

Flip sucks but this really is Joe and Bill's fault. Same roster for 3 years except for the bench getting weaker each year.
Our bench this year certainly isn't -weaker- than our bench last year.
Nope, but everybody's looking for excuses at this point to overhaul. Maybe hoping we get next lebron james if we trade sheed and ben for the #1 pick.:rolleyes: [smilie=zzz.gif]

This is a pretty good post by a Piston fan on another board:

http://boards.ign.com/basketball/b5109/118473242/p1/?30

Not a great board, but still one or two quality posters.

Go back to the stats from last year's playoffs and you'll find that our bench provided us more production in last year's playoffs than they are during these playoffs. It's not even a close call.

Dyess and Lindsey both played better last year. Arroyo was a spark in the Miami series. Elden Campbell played better post defense than Dale Davis. Mo Evans hasnt' done a lot right. And I like Delk, but he doesn't have more than a handful of points.

Now maybe it's coaching, the way the bench is being (mis)used by Flip, but last year's bench seemed to perform better.

Go back to the stats from last year's playoffs and you'll find that our bench provided us more production in last year's playoffs than they are during these playoffs. It's not even a close call.
But they arent better. You're not going to tell me using the bench has been Flip's strong suit now? Larry Brown had his favorites, but he played them out right and went to dyess for offense with more authority than Flip. Delk and a healthy delfino is better than a hurt delfino and arroyo. not light years better at the moment. but better nonetheless.

Either way the bench is is getting some of the most inconsistent minutes i've ever seen. no delfino for two series then he and delk come out the blue only after tay starts to look dead tired. mcdyess gets forgotten more often than he ever did last year. and hunter is hunter.

I see you're going to pull this overhaul the starters campaign for the rest of the post season and beyond in hopes of hitting joe dumars with your telekinesis, thus forcing him to do your jack mcloskey level fuckover rebuilding trades. So i'll just say that the arrogance and spoiled tendencies you seem to see in our starters has got a hold of you also. shit can change, but you're taking for granted that it would for the better. Just like people who were wishing for another coach instead of Larry Brown find out that things he does aren't to be taken for granted either. Its a totally different scenario for us now in exchange for Flip's offensive mind.

I see you're going to pull this overhaul the starters campaign for the rest of the post season and beyond in hopes of hitting joe dumars with your telekinesis, thus forcing him to do your jack mcloskey level fuckover rebuilding trades. So i'll just say that the arrogance and spoiled tendencies you seem to see in our starters has got a hold of you also. shit can change, but you're taking for granted that it would for the better. Just like people who were wishing for another coach instead of Larry Brown find out that things he does aren't to be taken for granted either. Its a totally different scenario for us now in exchange for Flip's offensive mind. Huh? The "arrogance and spoiled tendencies" have "got a hold of [me]"? LOL. Why? Because I disagree with you, because I think we may need to change one or more of our starters? Get a grip.

I'm not taking for granted that a change would makes things better. But I'm acknowledging that this particular starting crew, if it falls to Miami, will have failed to ring in consecutive years. Then I'll ask why, and then I'll consider adjustments--to the bench, to the starting crew, to the coach. You're familiar with adjustments, aren't you? Or are you a 'stay the course' kind of guy?

By Terry Foster
The Sports Inferno
MIAMI – We’ve seen the Pistons rally before. Orlando, New Jersey, Indiana and even the Miami Heat are teams the Pistons got themselves in trouble against before rallying and ending their seasons.
But now the Pistons must do it this season with a new skeleton. There seems to be a few cracks in team harmony as they prepare for Game 4 of the Eastern Conference Finals Tuesday night at American Airlines Arena. The Pistons trail the series 2-1 and Chauncey Billups said outside of a Game 7 this is the Pistons biggest playoff game he’s been a part of.
The Pistons are fighting more than the Heat. There might be some inside fires they need to put out.
We saw Rasheed Wallace kick over a chair and refuse to shake his coach’s hand Saturday night. Players complained the day after about focusing too much on offense and not enough on defense. That is an indirect criticism of coach Flip Saunders who took a lot of the heat even though his name was not mentioned.
“I ain’t going to mention what was frustrating me,” Wallace said.
Later the question was asked again and he scolded: “Why are you trying to stir up some bleep?”
Someone asked Rasheed Wallace if he preferred the defensive style implemented by former coach Larry Brown or the offense first style of Saunders and he mentioned being an old school type of guy who is defense first.
He did not directly blast Saunders but you got the message.
Ben Wallace was not in the mood to talk about the chair or Saunders coaching philosophy.
He fumed while sitting near center court prior to practice Sunday. He did not like the Rasheed question.
“Well you need to talk to Sheed about that,” Wallace said. “You’re going to ask me about it? Don’t ask me. That’s Sheed’s frustration.”
Even more telling was when he was asked about the difference between Saunders in the regular season and the post season.
“Ask him,” Ben barked. “Don’t be asking me these Rasheed Wallace and Flip Saunders questions man. Y’all want to talk to me, talk to me.”
You can see the anger in his eyes. Once again Wallace is not happy with teammates and he is not thrilled with his coach. He won’t come out and say it but you sense it reading between the lines and reading his body language.
I have been on a personal campaign for the Pistons to double Shaquille O’Neal in the post. It appears as if Wallace cannot handle him one on one. O’Neal blitzed Ben for 27 points in Game 3 as the Heat outscored the Pistons 50-16 in the paint.
The Heat is shooting 51.7 percent from the field in this series and 57 percent in their two victories. The one-two punch of Dwyane Wade and O’Neal is devastating for every team. But the Pistons have been their personal play things. They’ve combined for 51 points a game and shot 65 percent from the field.
“We don’t need no double team,” Wallace said. “We need to stop getting our defense broke down. That is how. Any time we allow guys to get to the middle and get in the paint then anybody can catch the ball where ever they want because the defense is broken down.”
And Ben did not like my follow up when I asked if he thought his perimeter defense was letting him down.
“Next question man,” he said.
The Pistons talked a lot about being in a hole before. On the surface this seems like the same old Pistons. Remember, they trailed the Heat 3-2 a year ago and won the last two games. But it is running much deeper this year. There is a divide between player and coach. It was a tiny crack after the Cleveland series but it is beginning to splinter.
Pistons President Joe Dumars made a wise decision in not showing up for practice Sunday. He would have been blind-sided by Saunders questions he might not have been prepared for.
The Pistons are angry and frustrated. We’ve seen the anger before. We just have not seen them angry with each other before.

already posted in the game 3 thread. and yes its by mr shitbag himself. T Foster, who gets his info from internet hoax articles from time to time.

I'm not taking for granted that a change would makes things better. But I'm acknowledging that this particular starting crew, if it falls to Miami, will have failed to ring in consecutive years. Then I'll ask why, and then I'll consider adjustments--to the bench, to the starting crew, to the coach. You're familiar with adjustments, aren't you? Or are you a 'stay the course' kind of guy?
LOL....Adjustments arent what you were talking about. but if thats your angle out, then fine. You were specifically talking about removing players for cost cutting as if you were paying them. if we were talking adjustments, that would be a whole other conversation. but fair enough i'll leave it be. you're talking about adjustments.:p

I'm not taking for granted that a change would makes things better. But I'm acknowledging that this particular starting crew, if it falls to Miami, will have failed to ring in consecutive years. Then I'll ask why, and then I'll consider adjustments--to the bench, to the starting crew, to the coach. You're familiar with adjustments, aren't you? Or are you a 'stay the course' kind of guy? LOL....Adjustments arent what you were talking about. but if thats your angle out, then fine. You were specifically talking about removing players for cost cutting as if you were paying them. if we were talking adjustments, that would be a whole other conversation. but fair enough i'll leave it be. you're talking about adjustments.:pAs if I were paying for them? Huh? I'm not even sure what that means. What do you mean by that? And how is that germane to this specific discussion? Please explain.

Is it to late to hire Larry Brown back? Really. Is it?

already posted in the game 3 thread. and yes its by mr shitbag himself. T Foster, who gets his info from internet hoax articles from time to time.

Yea, but we can ALL see it unfold in front of our eyes. Foster may be a moron, but I think everything is true in that article. I mean, just look at the quotes and the body language of the players at times in the games.

already posted in the game 3 thread. and yes its by mr shitbag himself. T Foster, who gets his info from internet hoax articles from time to time.

Yea, but we can ALL see it unfold in front of our eyes. Foster may be a moron, but I think everything is true in that article. I mean, just look at the quotes and the body language of the players at times in the games.
oh, the players are obviously fustrated. But like i said its new territory for them. They had a full coaching staff last year. Their Head Coach did everything he could to keep the pressure on them. Though he could be nervous, he kept a level head in the heated moments and put alot of trust in his players and assistants.

This year We have one HC and some dead weight as his assistants. He's not comfortable taking in some of the pressure in and has a tendency to trust himself more than his players on plays. The hack a shaq call isnt a big deal. But what it meant the players is. He basically said "I dont trust your adamant judgement on this", and it hurt their pride in what they felt they were capable of. which was playing str8 up w/o resorting to that. Before hand he wouldn't let Sheed play with 2 fouls in the 1st quarter regardless of Sheeds request. Rasheeds response to that along with ben's response earlier this year is a reflection of the difference between being a hardass coach and a nice guy coach. A hardass coach tells him no, and he sits down. Flip tries to get stern with players out of the blue and they revolt.

Same thing happened to the Raiders when Jon Gruden left. Gruden was a hardass. They replaced him with Callahan who brought in a new higher powered offense and even got them to the super bowl. but the offense ailed and the defense lost some identity losing to the bucs. the following year, nice guy callahan tried to get stern when the team started losing. the team revolted and it went downhill to hell after that. now i dont see us going downhill to hell. but theres some of those same elements in Flip that were in callahan.

I think him listening to his players with a sincereness to trust them on the few things they have pride in could go a long way for him.

Either Way I'm amped for game 4 all of the sudden. I wanna see how they respond. That could say more than anything.

As if I were paying for them? Huh? I'm not even sure what that means. What do you mean by that? And how is that germane to this specific discussion? Please explain.
its pretty clear IMO. But the discussion is over. You supposedly were talking about "adjustments" by your account. No need to drag it any further ..:)

As if I were paying for them? Huh? I'm not even sure what that means. What do you mean by that? And how is that germane to this specific discussion? Please explain. its pretty clear IMO. But the discussion is over. You supposedly were talking about "adjustments" by your account. No need to drag it any further ..:)That's really big of you. I hope someday I can learn the skill of slinging vague accusations of racism/classism, then magnanimously offering to move on when asked for explanation.

But you're right, let's move on.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/28/AR2006052801082.html


Brown Delivered. Can Saunders?

By Michael Wilbon
Monday, May 29, 2006; E01

The guy on the very hot seat down here is named Flip. The upside when you take over a team as talented and accomplished as the Detroit Pistons, a finalist last year and a champion the year before, is that another title is probably within reach. Even if you didn't build it, you maintained it.

But the downside, if you lose before the finals, has real unpleasantness to it. You blew it. You messed it up. The guy before you simply did a better job.

The Detroit Pistons haven't lost anything yet, but Coach Flip Saunders is hearing the latter. What if Larry Brown were still here? Would the Pistons, a defensive marvel in the past, have allowed Miami to shoot nearly 60 percent in a Game 3 loss? Would the Pistons have lost five of their last eight playoff games if the coach were better at making adjustments?

The days off in an NBA playoff series carry sometimes brutal examination, even from within.

Asked the difference between today's Pistons and the Pistons of 2004 and 2005, especially on defense, Detroit's Ben Wallace said, "Night and day . . . night and day." He pointed out that his team has dropped defensively from No. 1 to "the middle of the pack." And several players indicated here before practice Sunday that Saunders, who was rightfully praised during the regular season for improving the team's defense, hasn't worked the team much at all on defense, that he barely has talked about it in recent days.

It's difficult to know whether the Pistons, down 2-1 in the Eastern Conference finals, are just unhappy with their predicament with Game 4 here on Monday, or whether there might be some actual unhappiness with the coach.

You don't want to read too much into the comments of the usually measured Tayshaun Prince, especially the morning after a completely frustrating 1-for-7 shooting performance. But Prince did say: "I was pretty disappointed we didn't give Lindsey Hunter any action in the second half. Obviously, he's our best suit for Dwyane [Wade], as far as putting pressure on him. I know Dwyane can shoot over him, but at least he has the quickness to be where he's at all the time. We didn't give him the opportunity [in] the second half."

Hmmm. Last I checked, only one person makes the call on whom to play: the head coach. Flip.

Prince wasn't done, either. "We went to our counter options" too early, he said.

Wallace said of the team defense, "There are breakdowns all over the place."

Rasheed Wallace said of not having his number called a lot early: "I don't know. That's a question I think y'all should ask Flip more than me because I guess it's more a coaching call."

To be fair, it was later in the same session with reporters that Wallace came back and said, "It ain't like he can come out there, throw some shorts on, lace some sneaks up and come out there with us."

And Saunders himself dismissed the notion that he's essentially on trial the rest of the playoffs, calling it, "no more pressure than ever before."

It's to Saunders's credit that he simply will not make the playoffs a referendum on his style and temperament vs. Larry Brown's.

Still, it was Chauncey Billups, the Pistons' point man and one of the most astute players in the league, who said: "Flip knew when he took this job it was going to be a lot of pressure. It was pretty much, 'Win or failure.' We got two minutes away from winning it all again last year. He knew it would be a tough job . . . but at the same time, when you look at all we had, it's a dream job, I thought. I'm sure there's a little pressure on Flip. But we don't look at it like that, and I don't think he's worrying about it."

It's ironic that Brown is being looked at as the guy who had all the answers when last year, some felt that players were starting to tune out the Hall of Fame coach. This time last year Brown had been in contact with the Cavaliers about going to Cleveland. As much as Billups appreciates Brown, he said of Saunders, "He's not harping on anything as much as our previous coach."

But there is the reality of the situation. Brown took the Pacers, 76ers and Pistons to the conference finals. He went to the NBA Finals with the 76ers and won with the Pistons. Brown, putting his personal dramas aside, is one of the great coaches.

Saunders, a very good coach, is still a work in progress.

As Billups said: "Of course, Larry had been there a lot more times than Flip has; [Brown] had a lot more experience in these situations. Larry was just relentless, no matter what. We could be up 3-1, down 3-1. Larry was really not going to change. He's going to be the same, which is what you love and respect him so much for. I think that Flip, right now, is trying to figure it out. He's looking at as much tape as he can to see what it is and make those small adjustments. He's only been to the [conference] finals one time before, in Minnesota. So this is somewhat new to him as well."

Saunders and his assistants might very well find, in all that video review, a way to spring free the offense, which has gone from averaging 106.6 points the first seven games of the playoffs to 82 points the last eight games. But the Pistons, by league design, might never get back to the defensive level of last year and the year before. The playoffs are being officiated differently this season, and it isn't only the Pistons who've had to adjust. Shaquille O'Neal found the moves he made for 13 years being judged to be offensive fouls in these playoffs.

Asked if the Pistons will be allowed to play the same kind of physical defense, Billups said: "No way. They put in all those rules, like the hand check, after we won the championship two years ago playing defense. Nobody wanted to see a defensive team in the Finals and winning. It's not as explosive. It's not as fun to watch. I don't like watching it either. I'm not mad at 'em. But you look at us against San Antonio last year. Two really good defensive teams in the Finals played seven games and got the worst ratings in history almost. Seven games. There hadn't been a seventh game in the NBA Finals in a lot of years, man. But look at the first-round series this year. Lakers-Phoenix and Washington-Cleveland had ratings out of the roof. They're running up and down the floor, no defense being played, shooting and running and gunning. That's fun to watch. So they put in those rules to keep it from being 89-85."

Brown didn't have to contend with a league that doesn't find what the championship Pistons did to be aesthetically pleasing. Saunders does. But Brown's Pistons, in every round of the playoffs, found ways to fight back when they were behind. Saunders, shortsighted as it is, will be judged over the next few games on whether his team can do at least as well.

As if I were paying for them? Huh? I'm not even sure what that means. What do you mean by that? And how is that germane to this specific discussion? Please explain. its pretty clear IMO. But the discussion is over. You supposedly were talking about "adjustments" by your account. No need to drag it any further ..:)That's really big of you. I hope someday I can learn the skill of slinging vague accusations of racism/classism, then magnanimously offering to move on when asked for explanation.

But you're right, let's move on.
racism? you're fucking tard if you drew that conclusion. in fact you're one for drawing one at all. i drop it and you get offended and make it personal?. no pleasing some dickheads these days.:rolleyes: so because i wont argue with about what you said, your ruffled? if you werent paying attention i didnt offer to move on. i suggested it. and i did so before you started asking for reasoning on my statement(which i still dont get your puzzlement with the statement). in the same token i'm not as bent on trying to get your logic that trading or letting go ben and/or rasheed wallace is a couple "adjustments".

you're making it a bigger deal than it is and honestly, i dont know how or where you get a racism/classism accusation from. my only guess at this point is that your reading someone else's post or are on some of that nasty laced heroine thats circulating through michigan. Either way i mean you no malicious harm kemosabi. you need to learn some inner peace.
http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/images/dalai_lama_meditating.jpg

If you were halfway coherent, then maybe I wouldn't have to guess at whatever the hell you were trying to say, which you hilariously described as "pretty clear."

I can't believe I'm arguing with a 15 year old...

Go Pistons!

If you were halfway coherent, then maybe I wouldn't have to guess at whatever the hell you were trying to say, which you hilariously described as "pretty clear."

I can't believe I'm arguing with a 15 year old...

Go Pistons!
as much as i cant believe you're acting it like a 13 year old girl about something that was dropped several posts ago. let it go. there is no argument. stop trying to make one. the dispute was and is still over. you don't have to guess shit. ;) If i'm 15 for not being in the mood to get riled up with you over nothing, then i'll just be 15 today. enjoy the game and try to relax.[smilie=zzz.gif]

Bill Laimbeer > Flipper.

C'mon, Blaha. Use your magic.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060530/SPORTS03/605300371/1048/SPORTS

"Ben is Ben," Saunders said. "It's OK when you win 64 games. Lose a couple, now it's not OK."
Bah! Ben was saying this shit all year. He wasn't ok with our defense even when we were generally winning.

I'll get this out of the way first, "Fuck Flip".

Now, fuck Flip getting all the blame too. Turn back the time machine to LB leaving and what were we sold? "LB got too much of the credit, the players are out to prove that it was more about them than it was coaching".

Well, what have they proven now?

My thoughts about Laimbeer are pretty well known here. I think he's a fraud, a joke. But for the first time I'm starting to think it's got a legit chance of happening. This is going to be a major PR blow for Joe and the organization, especially if we go out in game 5 at home. That place is going to be ugly. I think we're at the crossroads (especially in light of what is being reported in the media about the players attitudes towards Flip).

It's looking like either some players are going to have to go or Flip is going to have to go. I've stated previously in this thread that I don't think Flip is going in any case, mostly because of $ and because we can't keep burning through coaches (or can we?). By that same token Laimbeer becomes an option because he'll come at a very cheap price tag, and with Flip being cast as a sacrificial lamb (no pun intended), bringing in the crowd favorite could be just the thing to get the season ticket holders re-energized.

But if you think we've become a joke now (and we have) then just wait if/when this does happen. Can anyone say Alan Trammell? It would be even worse when you add in Laimbeer's theatrics and acerbic personality.

If Flip does go, and you take Lamb out of the picture, who could possibly succeed here?

The players are openly criticizing Flip's lack of playoff success, so how would it play out with a first time coach with zero regular season success, let alone playoff success? It would be a disaster.

So if you throw out first time coaches, then maybe you look at young "up and comers". Eric Musselman? Same problem. If they don't respect what Flip has done, how would they feel about someone that has done even less?

That leaves championship level coaches. The only coaches at that level that are even remotely in play are (try not to laugh) Chuck Daly, Rudy T, and LB. None of them are going to get hired here.

Which brings me back to being stuck with Flip. Which means there are some players that are going to need to go. That is, unless they turn the team over to Sheed and let him coach.





edit- typo

I'll add that Joe also needs to shoulder some of the blame here. He hired Flip thinking that the defensive prowess that this team was built on would be just fine on auto pilot and if he brought in an "offensive mastermind" that the defense would sustain itself.

Ben Wallace's comments on this are condemning Joe in that regard.

The players are openly criticizing Flip's lack of playoff success, so how would it play out with a first time coach with zero regular season success, let alone playoff success? It would be a disaster.

So if you throw out first time coaches, then maybe you look at young "up and comers". Eric Musselman? Same problem. If they don't respect what Flip has done, how would they feel about someone that has done even less?



I'd rather have an unproven coach than a proven loser.

....
Which brings me back to being stuck with Flip. Which means there are some players that are going to need to go. That is, unless they turn the team over to Sheed and let him coach.


Glenn you're a damn genius. I've even drew up some X's and O's that I know for a fact Sheed would employ. Example:

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/7634/sheedplay1mq.jpg

which good coach is available? i mean if we fire Flip...Silas, Adelman? same problem as last year, there are no good coaches out there...we aint gonna get a better coach than Avery, Pop or Riley anyway...but our coach should be able to make adjustments and be better than a guy like Mike Brown for sure...i suggest keep Flip as long as a very good Coach becomes available, and hire some really good assistents to help him make adjustments and on defensiv end...

My thoughts are exact to what Glenn is thinking,

On one hand I can't imagine Ben and Flip not being here next year but on the other how do Ben and Flip both coexist here next year?

The blame should be shared by Davidson, Dumars and Ben. Flip is what he is so I knew what we were getting.

I am getting tired of Ben being a prima donna with every coach here. It's getting old quick. Ben is driving a wedge in between the team and their coach with his narcissistic behavior. Flip blows but Ben as a leader really needed to handle all of this better. Not only is he driving a wedge between his team and their coach but he's making Dumars look like an ass.

Totally surprised if Dumars doesn't call Ben on the phone and say "Dipshit keep your mouth shut, you're making us look bad". I'd be pissed if I was Joe. I think this sets up for Ben leaving not Flip, or maybe both.

I'm sure I won't like the most recent portions of this thread and I'll have to come back and read it when I've got the time but I just wanted to say something really quick.



http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/7634/sheedplay1mq.jpg
LMFAO!

As poorly as Flip has coached there is no one available that is significantly better.

Adelman? How many titles? None! Strength: Offensive coach.

So fuck him.

Flip stays, but we get him some real fucking assistants that can organise the D and leave Flipper to do the O.

My thoughts are exact to what Glenn is thinking,

On one hand I can't imagine Ben and Flip not being here next year but on the other how do Ben and Flip both coexist here next year?

The blame should be shared by Davidson, Dumars and Ben. Flip is what he is so I knew what we were getting.

I am getting tired of Ben being a prima donna with every coach here. It's getting old quick. Ben is driving a wedge in between the team and their coach with his narcissistic behavior. Flip blows but Ben as a leader really needed to handle all of this better. Not only is he driving a wedge between his team and their coach but he's making Dumars look like an ass.

Totally surprised if Dumars doesn't call Ben on the phone and say "Dipshit keep your mouth shut, you're making us look bad". I'd be pissed if I was Joe. I think this sets up for Ben leaving not Flip, or maybe both.

I was hoping someone would touch this post but either everyone thinks I am overblowing the sitch or nobody knows how to respond just yet. I think my thinking on Ben will gather steam once the playoffs are over and resigning talks start.

I am really shocked that Flip and Sheed are taking the brunt of this rather than Ben. Not that Flip and Sheed deserve a free pass but what Ben is doing is just as destructive as what Sheed has done and probably more so.

I haven't read this thread yet, so forgive me if I've missed something.

But has anyone claimed that Ben "pulled a Kobe last night"?

I've never seen someone absolutely, positively, unwilling to shoot the ball, even if its an uncontested dunk, for 48 straight minutes. Every time he got the ball within a few inches of the basket, he made sure to pass it away like a hot potato.

I don't think he was intentionally stabbing his teammates in the back, but it might as well have been.

Pretty nice for a guy to hang the coach out to dry claiming that he's running a 4 on 5 offense and not getting him touches on the offensive end, to get the ball several times in dunking position and simply refuse to shoot it, huh?

I don't know Taymelo. 2-4 is a pretty normal amount of shots for Ben.

Let me also say that it's utterly an embarrassment that Flip is responding to his players bitch's about him through the media. What does all this sniping in the media serve by both player and coach? How did my once proud franchise and the model for all pf Detroit teams sink to these levels?

WTF Flip can you take the high road please.

Frustration or not where the fuck did the professionalism go? Billups is the only one publicly handling this the right way.

A Bobby Ross quote is in order...

Womp Womp Womp, abandon ship, abandon ship.

they fouled Ben everytime he got a chance for a dunk, and Ben's afraid to go to the line...cause everyone knows what happens there...Ben at the line is basically a wasted offensiv possession

But if you think we've become a joke now (and we have) then just wait if/when this does happen.

LOL....we're in the eastern conference finals, and we're a joke....


Can anyone say Alan Trammell? It would be even worse when you add in Laimbeer's theatrics and acerbic personality.

...except Laimbeer can actually COACH......

His philosophy can win in the NBA. Its the same one Daly used to use. Pound the ball inside and on the glass, and use your guards to spread the floor. Beat the other team up with muscle.

It just doesnt mesh well with this roster.

As I said before, Sheed would have to go, and we'd need to move ben to PF and bring in a Maglore-type center to clog the lane and hit 8-foot shots in the key.

why not bring in Lamb as an assistant coach this season, in Lowe's vacant spot, maybe he can get some toughness going, then if things work out, dump Flip for him. We cant get rid of Flip now though because it would make no coach ever want to work here again.

In fact, i wouldn't mind Sheed leaving for a post presence C and moving Ben to PF.

the thing about JoeD bringing in Lamb, is that Flip's future is written on the wall. there's not much job security when your boss has hired your eventual replacement already.

besides, doesn't the head coach usually bring in assistants?

Lamb doesnt want to be an assistant.

He said there's a very short list of coaches he's work under, and I assure you FLip isnt on it.

the thing about JoeD bringing in Lamb, is that Flip's future is written on the wall. there's not much job security when your boss has hired your eventual replacement already.

besides, doesn't the head coach usually bring in assistants?

So be it. I say fire Flip, bring in Laimbeer... then see what happens when Sheed sits on the scorers table. See what happens when Ben doesn't want to go back in.

Off to Portland, bitches.

whats hubie brown's status? im sure he wouldnt mind having a strong shot at a ring next year. we could use his playoff experience, something flip doesnt have much of outside the first round.

^ I was actually thinking about that last night. I would love for Hubie to be our coach, but I doubt he comes back, didn't he quit because he couldn't handle the grind of coaching?

Just throwing a name out here, but how about Paul Silas

Hubie would spend every game vs the Cavs telling us to get Lebron James the ball......

Hubie Brown is done. Why do you think he left Memphis mid-season? Terrible idea.

Fire Flip for Detroit flop


AUBURN HILLS, Mich. – Flip? He's flopped.

And unless Flip Saunders immediately regains control of the spiraling Detroit Pistons, he should be fired just one season into taking over what seemed to be the ultimate coaching job – in charge of the most selfless, self-motivated team in basketball.

The failures of Detroit, which trails the Miami Heat in the Eastern Conference finals 3-1 heading into Wednesday's Game 5, aren't all Saunders' fault, but he will be the fall guy. He has to be.

The most coachable team in the league doesn't turn into the Portland Trail Blazers for no reason.

The Pistons aren't as good as they were the last two years, when they twice reached the Finals and won the title once. They aren't as tenacious defensively. They aren't as strong-willed. They aren't as cohesive, consistent or coordinated. They are barely improved offensively from the Larry Brown days, and that was the one thing Saunders was supposed to change.


During the regular season, he did. Detroit was an up-tempo team that maintained most of its defensive stinginess, streaking to the best record in the NBA.

But Saunders appears to have lost his team during the playoffs as times invariably got tough.

Because of the Pistons' history of playing their best when they're down and almost out – their own motto is "if it ain't rough, it ain't right" – there is still a belief that things can be turned around.

But this isn't the old Detroit team. And Miami – with a healthy Dwyane Wade, Shaquille O'Neal and a strong supporting cast – is not Cleveland or Orlando or New Jersey. The Heat look like a championship club.

The Pistons, meanwhile, have lost of six of their last nine games and look like a fractured team that has given up on its coach.

Rasheed Wallace, who was the definition of a team guy under Brown, has been pouting, even refusing to slap Saunders' hand coming out of games and even steering clear of a timeout huddle in Game 3. Players, including usually soft-spoken Tayshaun Prince, have publicly questioned substitution patterns.

Earlier this year, Ben Wallace, the heart and soul of the team, refused to enter a game when Saunders called on him, and lately he has been critical of practice emphasis (too much offense). Bench rotations, other than Antonio McDyess, have fluctuated wildly, confusing the reserves.

Privately, throughout the locker room, the players will tell you they dislike Saunders' emphasis of zone defense, which goes against their preferred manly version of man-to-man. There is a distinct lack of respect.

"As a coach I make decisions," Saunders said Monday. "I have to live by the decisions. As players, they play, and they have to implement as far as what we do. I don't agree with what Ben says on practice from a defensive standpoint talking to people who have been here and what we've done. We all know how Ben gets at times."

"They can suggest [changes]," Saunders continued. "That doesn't mean I'll do it."

Anytime the talk in the middle of a playoff series is about a possible feud between key players and the coach, said team's goose is all but cooked.

"We can't worry about what's going on in that situation," Prince said Monday. "But people have [seen] the toughness on the defensive end that we bring all the time hasn't been there lately. But I haven't had any problem with Flip, and I don't think any of the other players have had any problems with Flip."

Nice sentiments, but there is no way they are true. Some players certainly have a problem with Flip.

Saunders' greatest failure is losing Ben Wallace's confidence. Wallace's marginalization in Detroit's offense has affected his entire game.

I've written this before, but as strange as it sounds, the secret to getting the Defensive Player of the Year to play his best is to include him, at least a little, offensively. But Saunders has failed to do that, almost embarrassing Wallace on the offensive end by ignoring him.

During the 2004 NBA championship run, Wallace averaged 8.9 shots a game, at least four or five of which came out of Brown's set plays. Big Ben averaged 10.3 points, 14.3 rebounds, 2.4 blocks and 1.9 steals while putting out a hellacious, and contagious, effort.

This postseason, Wallace is averaging a meager 3.9 shots a game and his numbers have dropped across the board – just 4.3 points, 10.9 rebounds, 1.2 blocks and 1.4 steals.

He isn't playing the way he did a year ago as the motor of the team, and his decreased performance has had a compounded impact. In their three victories, the Heat are shooting a blistering 56.6 percent from the floor. That used to be impossible against the Pistons.

While it is Wallace's job to go all out all the time, it is also a coach's job to foster an environment that makes it happen.

Larry Brown knew it, and that is why – despite his constant sideshow of drama – he never lost his locker room.

Saunders was handed a dream job last year, with a roster that was in place to compete for multiple championships. But, to do so, the players had to want to compete for their coach. They don't seem to now. It is one thing to lose; it is another to lose like this in a very un-Detroit way.

Only one thing changed from then and now: the coach. Barring another miraculous Pistons flip-the-switch-comeback, the coach is going to have to change again.



http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Alc3r7K4LVxZFXrfbdA9AY68vLYF?slug=dw-flip053006&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Nice find, J.A.

Jeff Van Gundy?

Flip needed to establish respect and control amongst the players. I think his biggest issues have come in handling Ben. Everyone who thought Ben sitting in Orlando and not getting sanctioned was a good thing was on crack. Ben's talking LB-esque smack about Flip now, and Flip isn't smart enough to avoid the bait in the press, and I want to throw both of them over the bus -- trade Flip, Ben, and Sheed for KG, if you could throw a coach into a trade.

Let's be honest here. Dumars has made that difficult by taking that gamble and -not- getting Ben's contract extension squared away this year, so Flip has had to treat Ben with kid gloves. It's easier to treat Ben with kid gloves when you're coasting through the regular season and let Ben be Ben, harder to do come crunch time. McHale did a similar thing with Spree and Sam in Minny, which worked out hell for Flip.

Between garbage games and the Playoffs, we are playing .500 ball (well, a 12-11 record -- close enough) since Orlando.

I think that not disciplining Ben after Orlando was a risk just like disciplining him would have been (I said as much at the time). It doesn't appear to have worked out. You would hope that the guy takes it as an act of respect and feels a bit beholden to repay that respect but that hasn't happened and as Barkley said yesterday, its just completely dissapointing. Pretty much everything the Pistons are doing at the moment is the wrong thing, on and off the court.

But if you think we've become a joke now (and we have) then just wait if/when this does happen.

LOL....we're in the eastern conference finals, and we're a joke....

K, if you don't hear people laughing at the Pistons expense right now, reveling in our struggles, then the only conclusion that I can draw is that you are not listening.

I never liked when Kiki let Carmelo's antics slide, hanging Bzdelik up to dry in Denver. I worry if our lack of reaction to Ben's snit in Orlando was the similar "lack of respect" moment, and how much of that rests on Dumars. Apart from a couple decent draft picks, Dumars' GM-ing moves since the summer of 2004 haven't worked out. Everyone's talking about "Fire Flip" or "Bust The Team", while no one talks about Joe Dumars' hand or lack thereof beyond Darko.

2005: Joe never leveraged the Corliss-Derrick Coleman trade into anything, going so far as to waive DColeman's contract just when he needed a DColeman-sized contract to trade to Utah for Arroyo, and we had to play "chase the backup center" down the stretch of 2005 by throwing Elden into the trade. He had a hard-on for HenkyJo ahead of Smush, who had more game. He permitted both Dupree and Ham in the playoffs ahead of Delfino, even though it would have made a lot more sense. The only good thing he did was sign McDyess and resign Rasheed, and even then the antics with Rasheed cost us better FA prospects because our hands were tied.

2006: Joe signed Dale, Tay, Delk, and MoEvans to decent contracts for their level of ability. He missed out on the higher-profile FAs from amnesty. He made a couple decent draft picks in JMax and Amir, but they rarely played. He traded Darko and Arroyo for a little cap space and a pick situation that should've been better. He didn't extend Ben when he had a chance, which could either be fatal or the best move ever depending on how it plays out. Oh, and he disassociated with Larry Brown and hired Flip Saunders, the best coach available unless you think McMillan, Porter, and Phil Jackson were reasonable options here.

2005: Joe never leveraged the Corliss-Derrick Coleman trade into anything, going so far as to waive DColeman's contract just when he needed a DColeman-sized contract to trade to Utah for Arroyo, and we had to play "chase the backup center" down the stretch of 2005 by throwing Elden into the trade. He had a hard-on for HenkyJo ahead of Smush, who had more game. He permitted both Dupree and Ham in the playoffs ahead of Delfino, even though it would have made a lot more sense. The only good thing he did was sign McDyess and resign Rasheed, and even then the antics with Rasheed cost us better FA prospects because our hands were tied.

The DC thing is true but it didn't really cost anything. Neither HoJank nor Smush would be playing (or even on our roster now) so that is a non-factor. As for the playoff rosters, who knows if Brown would have played Delfino even if Joe had pulled a power move and put him on it (judging from the Nets game Brown lost rather than play a big he didn't trust I don't think he would have, there are other factors that point to him not playing Delf as well) so that's hardly a knock as well. The Dyess signing was a very good one and bringing back one of the keys to winning a championship isn't a minus against Joe.


2006: Joe signed Dale, Tay, Delk, and MoEvans to decent contracts for their level of ability. He missed out on the higher-profile FAs from amnesty. He made a couple decent draft picks in JMax and Amir, but they rarely played. He traded Darko and Arroyo for a little cap space and a pick situation that should've been better. He didn't extend Ben when he had a chance, which could either be fatal or the best move ever depending on how it plays out. Oh, and he disassociated with Larry Brown and hired Flip Saunders, the best coach available unless you think McMillan, Porter, and Phil Jackson were reasonable options here.

He did miss out on Finley but was smart enough to cut bait and run at other guys while available. Finley averaged 10 points/game and a solid shooting % in the offs but its not like he helped the Spurs repeat. I'm sure JoeD would have rather had him but it was obviously a matter of player choice and he chose not to come, not sure where the Dumars blame fits here. The rest of the paragraph is pretty up in the air as of now though the Darko thing is always a negative no matter who lands here with that pick.

The point was to look beyond "it's the player's fault" or "it's Flip's fault" -- that's all.

No, Smush may not have made the roster this year, but we could've used him last year. Yes, it's a GM's job to coax good free agents. Should "Be part of the only team that's made it to the Finals the past couple years, get your shot at a ring." have gotten better than MoEvans. Should we spent weeks ironing out an $11 million/year deal with Sheed while no real team could pay more than MLE. Hmmmm...

I understand the point Mxy but if you just wanted to throw out stuff without it being qualified or judged as to its veracity then you picked the wrong place to do it.

I'm all for holding people to their responsibility but when you say things like "lets hold it against Dumars that he made a choice that had no real consequences, positive or negative, at all" (which is what most of your points amounted to) you aren't gonna get my support.

Also, Smush was on the roster last year.

I understand the point Mxy but if you just wanted to throw out stuff without it being qualified or judged as to its veracity then you picked the wrong place to do it.

I'm all for holding people to their responsibility but when you say things like "lets hold it against Dumars that he made a choice that had no real consequences, positive or negative, at all" (which is what most of your points amounted to) you aren't gonna get my support.
Well, I'm not going that far. But, if we want to play "the blame game", talk vaguely in terms of blowing up some facet of the team, we shouldn't limit ourselves to "Flip" or "the players". My only untouchable is Arnie Kander.


Also, Smush was on the roster last year.
Playoff roster. I'd have taken Smush over injured Delfino over Ham for that 11/12th spot.

I understand the point Mxy but if you just wanted to throw out stuff without it being qualified or judged as to its veracity then you picked the wrong place to do it.

I'm all for holding people to their responsibility but when you say things like "lets hold it against Dumars that he made a choice that had no real consequences, positive or negative, at all" (which is what most of your points amounted to) you aren't gonna get my support. Well, I'm not going that far. But, if we want to play "the blame game", talk vaguely in terms of blowing up some facet of the team, we shouldn't limit ourselves to "Flip" or "the players". My only untouchable is Arnie Kander.


Also, Smush was on the roster last year. Playoff roster. I'd have taken Smush over injured Delfino over Ham for that 11/12th spot.

That's a bad attempt at a cover. Your argument was Smush over Jenkins, that had nothing to do with the playoffs. Now its Smush over Delfino over Ham for the playoff roster? If you think Smush would had meant a championship in 2005 then you've got problems.

I'm not "covering" for anything.

My assertion is REALLY simple: Joe isn't perfect, that he's a very good but not great GM. He's managed to avoid a lot of negative talk again him, and we should take a look at what he might have done differently that would've made things better much like we would with Flip or players or anyone else. Does that mean "throw him over a bus" like a sack of shit? No. Does that mean getting a little beyond, say, "it's Flip's fault because he can't rotate", you're right. If you think that means more than it does, then you're reaching.

If you dig up past WTFDetroit archives and other boards, I've said the same things all along. Ditching Smush in favor of HenkyJo , especially after Delfino was injured, struck me as a bad move by Joe in January 2005. Not putting Delfino on the playoff roster was another bad move by Joe and I flagged it as such in April 2005. Yadda yadda yadda.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2006/news/story?id=2464207

Why has it gone wrong for Flip Saunders -- lousy coaching job, lousy timing in following Larry Brown, lousy development of bench, lousy luck in having the team fall apart right now, he's a scapegoat, or he's just the wrong guy for the job?

Broussard: Flip is a good coach, but he has to take a sizable hit for this. He played his starters too much in the regular season, and as I said from jump street, his emphasis on offense lessened this team's identity as a defensive powerhouse. They won back-to-back EC titles with rugged D, and without a coach who preaches that 24-7-365 and harps on it for all 48 ticks, you can't play that type of D. They're still very good defensively, but not the lockdown crew that they must be to win the East for a third straight time.

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Bucher: Putting this on Flip is ludicrous on every level. First of all, Larry Brown's theatrics last year might very well have cost the Pistons a ring, so let's not suddenly make him out to be Clipboard Jesus. Secondly, the Pistons knew what they were getting: an offensively creative coach who wouldn't put them through the drama of last season. Flip utilized the anti-Larry sentiment and one of the few top teams that didn't have any injuries or major changes to post the league's best record.

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Hollinger: Wrong place at the wrong time. Luck is always part of the equation in the postseason, and I think the Pistons had some incredibly good fortune the past two seasons. This year, the karmic pendulum has swung in the other direction -- they have to play against a healthy Shaq and Wade while Rasheed Wallace is limping.

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Sheridan: He's definitely becoming a scapegoat in this series, the newcomer being set up to take the fall. He has been slow to figure out ways to stop D-Wade, but that's about the only major fault I can find with his coaching. It's not him out there missing jumpers. I expect Saunders to zone the Heat a lot tonight, because it worked in the third quarter of Game 4, but if the Pistons lose there will be more fingers pointing at him. Those same fingers were pointing at Brown after Game 7 against San Antonio a year ago.

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Stein: He's the easy scapegoat and getting way more blame than he should, but Flip knew that's how it would be going in. The Pistons could have won 73 games in the regular season, but he was always going to be judged by how this team did in the playoffs. That's why I thought it was a gutsy move for him to take this job. Milwaukee wanted Flip badly, but he chose to replace Larry in Detroit, where only a championship is satisfactory.

I will say I'm heartened to hear that a few of his players have apologized for the recent second-guessing. The Pistons, remember, are supposed to be the ultimate team … and they haven't been lately.


Why can't the Pistons score?

Broussard: The Pistons can't score because they rely too much on jump shots, plus they don't really have a guy who can break down defenders at will off the dribble, a la Kobe, D-Wade, LeBron. They have failed time and time again to establish a consistent post game, and when you rely too much on outside shooting, it can come back to burn you. No post, no drive, few points in the paint, few points overall.

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Bucher: Same reason their defense was mediocre the entire season: They don't play with any urgency. The transition points that made them so giddy during the regular season have dried up, as they do every postseason, and the Pistons aren't being efficient at all in their half-court sets. Time after time, 15 seconds come off the shot clock and the offense starts over from a standstill. Multiple possessions go by with the ball never leaving one side of the floor. Flip isn't an isolation offense-type coach, so I know this isn't by design.

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Hollinger: The aformentioned injury to Rasheed Wallace has hurt them, but even more than that four of the five starters just look out of gas (Prince being the exception). I'm wondering if three long playoff runs with no breaks (thanks to all that good health) have taken some wind out of their sails.

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Sheridan: They're not playing together on offense as they did during the first two-thirds of the season, Rasheed Wallace's ankle injury is severely limiting his offense, and when the Pistons find something that works -- such as Tayshaun Prince's scoring prowess in the first quarter of Game 4 -- they don't stick with it. We're already at Game 5, and they still seem to be trying to figure out the Heat. It's probably too late.

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Stein: Because they've been playing safe, slow and scared since about Game 3 of the Cleveland series. They've lost the confidence to attack and it's their offense -- not the defense -- that's costing them this Miami series. They need to speed up the game, expose Miami's holes on the perimeter and wear Shaq down. Chauncey Billups said many times during the season that the Pistons, under Flip, learned how to win with offense or defense. They're running out of time to prove it.

Flip gets points in my book for this:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/14710869.htm


Each coach has sat at a podium for pregame questions before every game of this series.

But Pistons coach Flip Saunders didn't last long Wednesday. He took his seat, waited a few seconds for a question and, before anyone could ask, got up and walked out.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/422707p-356802c.html



If anything, the play was the best example of the hard work that the Pistons have done at the defensive end that has typified their last two playoff runs. But that had not been evident since the third game of the Cavalier series. Since then, the Pistons have lost six of nine games, allowing Cleveland and Miami to shoot 51% in the sixlosses. With Detroit's season collapsing, internal bickering started as the Heat took a 3-1 series lead. But even if the Pistons had lost last night, it wouldn't have cost Flip Saunders his job. According to an Eastern Conference executive who had recent discussions with members of the Pistons' hierarchy, Saunders, in his first season in Detroit and with three seasons left on his contract, will not be fired, regardless of the outcome of this series.

"They're angry about the way it's ending because they never expected this," the source said before Game5. "But Flip's not getting fired. They know they've got to address some serious roster problems."

Roster problems?

No O out of the 5 spot, no post presence, no bench.

That MLE will have to stretch a long fucking way to solve all that.

Roster problems?

No O out of the 5 spot, no post presence, no bench.

That MLE will have to stretch a long fucking way to solve all that.

And sadly enough, Joe will probably try to solve all of the problems with that 1 MLE too. Just like this last season when he split the MLE between Dale Davis and Mo Evans. Imagine if we just had Raja Bell (signed for a little less than the MLE). Hunter, Bell, and Delfino off the bench. Could you imagine a more pesky defensive crew? Throw in Dice, then add a low-post scorer with this years MLE, and the team is complete. Instead we're just going to get half-assed guys in here getting half-assed minutes, and they will never produce like people want them to.

...And I still don't get why it is so fucking hard to get Rasheed to play from the foul line down. Use the jumper as a threat, but don't overuse it.

This should stir things up a bit here.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=whitlock/060601


Friday should decide Flip's fate

By Jason Whitlock
Special to Page 2

Friday's Game 6 should decide Flip Saunders' fate.

If the Pistons lose in Miami and are eliminated from the playoffs in six games, Saunders should lose his job. If the Pistons force a seventh game in the Eastern Conference finals, then Saunders should stay on as coach of the Pistons regardless of what happens the rest of the playoffs.

Flip Saunders has to be feeling some pressure to extend this series.

As a devout Larry Brown fan, you know I'm rooting for exactly what I've been rooting for all season. A Detroit collapse. I've been wanting to say I told you so to all the Larry Brown haters for an entire year, and after the Pistons' spectacular regular season and promising playoff start, I thought I'd never get the opportunity.

In fact, several times this year I contemplated writing an apology and admitting in print that owner Bill Davidson, Palace president Tom Wilson and Pistons president Joe Dumars were right for using their media puppets to sabotage and undermine Brown a year ago.

The Pistons appeared to be better under Flip than Larry. Well, now we know that's not the case. What remains to be determined is whether the Pistons have truly regressed with Flip on the sidelines.

There would be no shame in losing to the Heat in seven games. The Pistons almost did that last year under Brown's direction, and you could make a strong argument they would've lost to Miami had Dwyane Wade remained completely healthy.

But series elimination in six would be another story, especially after getting extended to seven games by the Cleveland LeBrons in the semifinals, especially after damn near the entire roster flipped Flip under the bus during these playoffs.

If you remember, a year ago, sources close to the Pistons (Davidson, Wilson, Dumars and media flack Matt Dobek) were leaking "anonymous" stories about how unhappy and distracted Ben Wallace, Chauncey Billups and Rasheed Wallace were that Brown started shopping his services to Cleveland once he figured out Wilson had convinced Davidson to hate Brown.

You couldn't pick up a Sports Illustrated or a Detroit Free Press without reading about what an awful, disgusting, disloyal human being Brown was and how unnamed sources close to the Pistons (Davidson, Wilson, Dumars and Dobek) were sure Wallace, Billups and Wallace couldn't stand Brown.

The players always backed Brown publicly. That's not quite the case with Flip. You don't hear about unnamed sources close to the Pistons ripping Saunders. You hear about disgruntled, named players ripping Saunders.

Ben Wallace has criticized Saunders' defensive coaching. Rasheed Wallace doesn't like Saunders' use of the Hack-a-Shaq. Tayshaun Prince has been dissatisfied with Saunders' offensive strategy.

Is the public criticism unfair? Probably. But nowhere near as unfair as what happened to Brown a year ago. At least the players are willing to put a name behind their opinions. At least the players aren't hiding behind any media puppets.

Rasheed Wallace, as well as a couple other Pistons, aren't exactly the easiest players to coach.

Larry Brown is a better coach than Flip Saunders. No one can deny that. I can't guarantee the Pistons would be beating the Heat if Brown was still the head coach in Detroit. But I can guarantee the Cavaliers wouldn't have taken the Pistons to a Game 7. You know damn well Larry burned up the phone lines instructing his good friend Mike Brown on how to defend Billups and Rasheed Wallace.

And I can also guarantee that Wade would not be able to shoot 70 percent from the field against a Larry Brown-coached team in a playoff series. No way. Larry would quit before he'd allow that to happen. Larry would have the good common sense to put Prince on Wade for 15 minutes a game.

Flip can still save his job. The Pistons can win Friday night in Miami. Bone (Gary Payton), Thug (Jason Williams) and Disharmony (Antoine Walker) -- Pat Riley's offseason acquisitions -- are still highly capable of destroying the Heat. The Pistons can still win this series.

This series could be the series that turns Flip into a solid postseason coach. He can earn the trust of his players by getting them through this series. There's no more difficult job in sports than taking over a veteran, successful team. The Pistons' players have enjoyed far more success than their head coach. And coaching B. Wallace, Billups and R. Wallace would be difficult for any coach. Brown struggled with it.

Of course, I'm hoping Flip and the Pistons get embarrassed on Friday night. The greatest joy in sports is saying I told you so. That might sound childish, but it's the truth. Would sports be half as fun if you didn't have a buddy to call and say, "Boy, I told you the Pacers were going to whip dat a--"?

I told you the Pistons were going to regret dumping Brown for Flip.

Davidson, Wilson and Dumars believed they didn't need Brown, they didn't need the best coach in basketball to coach the best team in basketball. They tired of placating Larry's ego. They tired of Larry getting all the credit and attention.

Let me be the first to suggest this: If the Pistons lose on Friday, they should rehire Brown to coach the team once he's cut loose by Isiah Thomas and the Knicks. I'm serious. The players and the organization should now have a better understanding of what Brown brings to the table.

As a devout Larry Brown fan, you know I'm rooting for exactly what I've been rooting for all season. A Detroit collapse. I've been wanting to say I told you so to all the Larry Brown haters for an entire year, and after the Pistons' spectacular regular season and promising playoff start, I thought I'd never get the opportunity.

Bitch. Made.

Wow, that just makes Larry Brown fans (me) look bitch made. Fuck that guy. I'm a big LB guy, but....wow. Fuck him.

Whitlock is still getting columns out of that info Wojo fed him. IMO it makes Wojo look like an ass. He should have written that shit himself instead of hidding behind Whitlock's fat ass.



This series could be the series that turns Flip into a solid postseason coach. He can earn the trust of his players by getting them through this series. There's no more difficult job in sports than taking over a veteran, successful team. The Pistons' players have enjoyed far more success than their head coach. And coaching B. Wallace, Billups and R. Wallace would be difficult for any coach. Brown struggled with it.

Whatever your feelings about the rest of the article. This part is definately true.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060605/SPORTS08/606050307/1127


Parker: Saunders will be back, despite the blame he's gotten

He has three years left on his contract.

Flip Saunders isn't going anywhere. Despite the Pistons' ugly, unexpected playoff collapse, suggestions by NBA writers and analysts that he was outcoached by Miami's Pat Riley, and Pistons players openly criticizing him, Saunders will return for a second season in Detroit.

The official announcement could be announced as early as today by Pistons president Joe Dumars.

Saunders, who replaced Larry Brown after last season, is not the reason the Pistons didn't make it to the NBA Finals. Clearly, the players are to blame for missing so many shots.

In the biggest game of the season, the Pistons shot 28 percent from the field in the first half in Game 6 against the Heat on Friday night. For the game, they shot a woeful 33 percent. That's embarrassing. (How Embarrassing!! --GD)

Granted, it wasn't the ending to the season most expected for the Pistons, especially after they compiled the best record in the NBA for the regular season and had home court throughout the postseason.

The best man
Still, Saunders, who signed a four-year, $16-million contract, did his job and deserves another opportunity to get the Pistons back to the top of the Eastern Conference. Anybody who doesn't think so isn't being fair.

Blaming the coach, as many have on sports-talk radio, is too easy.

If you're honest and look deeper than simply whether the Pistons went to the Finals, you would agree Saunders is still the best man for the job.

The Pistons didn't miss a beat in the regular season with Saunders at the helm. The defense was strong, and the long scoring droughts vanished -- the scoring droughts fans complained about when Brown coached this team.

Ben Wallace complained that the Pistons worked too much on offense and neglected defense.

The fact of the matter is the Pistons allowed, on average, only a half-point more per game than they did last season under Brown.

Plus, the Pistons showed often during the playoffs they could still lock down players when it was necessary. Let's not forget Game 7 against Cleveland.

The Pistons allowed the LeBron James-led Cavaliers only five field goals in the second half. That's unheard-of.

Work to be done
That's not to say Saunders was flawless. He'll have to improve in a couple of areas next season.

He'll have to develop a bench. That means getting players he believes in and letting them play.

Then he won't feel compelled to keep his starters in a game that the Pistons are leading by 20.

Saunders grants his players much offensive freedom, but he'll have to get them better prepared for the half-court sets in the postseason.

Shooting jump shots is fine in the regular season, but in the postseason you have to be able to score inside, as well.

Saunders will also have to build better relationships with Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace. Once things cool down, they'll be happy he's back -- and so should you.

You can reach Rob Parker at rob.parker@detnews.com.