Me thinks this isn't going away anytime soon. So far, we don't torture, followed by we kinda torture, now it looks like we torture. Congress wasn't briefed, they were briefed, they were kinda briefed. It was authorized by military, it wasn't authorized, it was authorized by bushies, it was authorized by Bush.

Pics are being leaked now. Please post as you see them. What is torture to you? I think that if there "is a bomb in a city, and Habib here knows where it is", rip the fuckers toenails out. But if you think a guy knows a guy who's planting bombs in Bhagdad, odds are you're wasting your time.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01403/prisoner_gallery_1403628a.jpg

It's interesting that all of this stuff seems to happen while naked.

If I'm being held by foreign captors and they are going to hang me upside down over a bunk bed for a day or six, I don't really care if I have my clothes on or not.

Makes you wonder if the nudity is really more for the ones actually doing the torturing, doesn't it?

Yeah, and some of them have been covered in what I assume is their own poop. I would rather have my own poop on me than apply poop to someone else [/giffman].

Some people like poop, too, so how effective is that, really?

Digressing...sorry.

Hit them with shoes, I hear they hate that.

Employ Bukdow to "educate them". They'll be singing in a day.

I don't see the point on why a few people are upset over enhanced interrogation.

Do you really have a sincere concerning interest of the well-being of those terrorists who hate our country?

Unless you do, I don't see how this is anything more than a witchhunt out to score political points by taking advantage of the unpopularity of a previous administration.

And it seems both Obama & Holder have realized that by now, and are pretty much letting the issue die on its own, although Pelosi's mouth isn't helping the Democratic party.

Besides, only in the opinions of the far left is this "torture", most of America doesn't care.

LOL! "Enhanced Interrogation" Priceless!

From Rush/Hannity's mouths to God's ears.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802242.html

I'm glad we yelled boo at some of these douches, cuz it was effective.

^ I should add that I mean the peeps who are trained to do it, not some douche bag airman at Abu Graib.

If you see the pics without the black box, you won't believe the size of this guys enhancement.

Do you really have a sincere concerning interest of the well-being of those terrorists who hate our country?




I hope people are concerned in other countries about the well-being of our troops who hate their country.

I hope people are concerned in other countries about the well-being of our troops who hate their country.

But our soldiers aren't terrorists (no matter how much Janet Napolitano may want you to think they are).

But our soldiers aren't terrorists (no matter how much Janet Napolitano may want you to think they are).

Neither are many of the people being tortured Wil. 25 years ago we called them "freedom fighters". They're folks in their own countries fighting for their side in a war. Just because they don't have tanks to fight our tanks doesn't make them terrorists.

But so many of the terrorists captured in Iraq weren't from Iraq. They were from the larger movement of UBL and Zarqawi. Its not just a lack of tanks we are talking about here.

I agree with Shep Smith on the issue.

I haven't seen Shep lately.

Neither are many of the people being tortured Wil. 25 years ago we called them "freedom fighters". They're folks in their own countries fighting for their side in a war. Just because they don't have tanks to fight our tanks doesn't make them terrorists.You're a fucking moron. However, I do believe the vast majority of the Taliban are more deserving of life than you are.

I agree with Hermy. Big Time. Especially the douchebag right, who say they are all full of the preservation and sanctity of life and shit, personal freedoms, they are bible thumpers (and JCriddy would NEVER approve of torture), and of course, if two guys who marry are going to ruin the world, what the fuck is America, the bastion of freedom and human rights, torturing people going to do to the world?

Bogus bullshit. Bush, Cheney, and Rummy were all about dick measuring belligerence. They should all be headed to jail, or for trial in Geneva.

I agree with Hermy. Big Time. Especially the douchebag right, who say they are all full of the preservation and sanctity of life and shit, personal freedoms, they are bible thumpers (and JCriddy would NEVER approve of torture), and of course, if two guys who marry are going to ruin the world, what the fuck is America, the bastion of freedom and human rights, torturing people going to do to the world?

Bogus bullshit. Bush, Cheney, and Rummy were all about dick measuring belligerence. They should all be headed to jail, or for trial in Geneva.Hey faggot, how's your ex-wife and my kids doing?

20 minutes and no half-baked reply complete with witty inline image? You're losing your touch. Don't act like you have a life or something, old man.

And Nanci Pelosi and all the other Dems too right Zip?

Hey faggot, how's your ex-wife and my kids doing?

I wouldn't know, but your momma's ass is pretty sore these days.

Many of you know I am Australian so the only thing I will say in this thread is this:

I find it funny to see the 2 opposing sides debating torture.

I am happy to see that many of you are against it.

I am also not surprised that certain people are all for it.

I won't state my case cause it's a can of worms I don't wanna open so um, yeah.

This was a good read.

"From my own experience visiting the troops in the Middle East, I can tell you this, though: despite how the conflict has been portrayed by our glorious media, if you gave any U.S. soldier a gun with two bullets in it, and he found himself in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and Osama bin Laden, there’s a good chance that Nancy Pelosi would get shot twice, and Harry Reid and bin Laden would be strangled to death."

from David Feherty's blog

Is that the golf guy who has become a media lovechild and a charicature of himself?

In times of trouble, always look to golf analysts.

Why is it so difficult for some to comprehend the fanaticism we're dealing with, here? These are not terrorists... they are soldiers of God. They believe God will take them to a better place. They believe that willingly giving information to the enemy will disallow this passage. They are blinded by a false prophet, and cannot fathom the human cost of their plight. Sometimes, there is simply no other way to extract intel from these individuals but for certain types of torture.


^We're talking about Pelosi and Reid, right?

Put another way, back in middle school there were certain kids who could not be reasoned with, no matter how many times sent to the Principal's office, or politely asked by a potential victim NOT to take the lunch money. They didn't understand verbal communication, whether it be because of a destructive home environment, or simply due to their popularity (top of the food chain). Sometimes, torture is the only solution. Torture is the most basic, animalistic form of punishment, and it's something we all understand. Keep in mind, the type of torture varies from person to person, and torture doesn't necessarily need to be physically violent to be effective. For instance, you don't physically beat the kid... you humiliate him. Will it leave a mental scar? Sure. So does prison. So does physical torture. So do a lot of other things. But, humiliation directly attacks his power base (that of intimidation) and with the fear of future humiliation hanging over his head, he'll think twice about pushing around little Gl'enn again.

There has to be an end game to the torture.

a) Did it perform the necessary task efficiently?
b) Was it effective?
b) Did it alter the mentality of the person?

Example. Say I wanted to torture Bukdow due to him posting something about my mama. What can I possibly use that will be sufficiently quick, gain the maximum amount of success, and ensure he'll NEVER do what he did again? If I find him and beat the holy snot out of him, I surely punished him, but also left a deep-seated grenade of resentment within him. So I secured "A", and perhaps "B", but failed on "C". Though he may not post against me again, he'll find another way to detonate that grenade and exact revenge.


http://doesitallmatter.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/blackj11.jpg

I nominate Comrade.

Denny, what about our good christian soldiers? What about our "God Bless America" bullshit?

And when we are torturing someone--is that going to make him forget about god? Are we torturing "fanatics" or just anyone we think can give us some sort of information?

Torture is wrong, and a society that is flouting human rights in the faces of any other country shouldn't be violating human rights.

Now, if we'd have taken Afghanistan, and went in with the idea of nation building there, and then trained their guys and more of our guys to do a little, ah, "dirty work"--and turned the Middle East into a killing field for terrororrroororrrists--by getting the locals in all countries on our side and helping remove or alleviate their fear of rogue groups who force them to store arms, join their causes, forfeit their women, and wallow in poverty and fear, then well, you have a winnable cause.

Go in with Big Booms, destroy the countries and the tenuous balances, appear imperialistic, clash ideologies, and then do nothing to help the people out (and of course, kill about half a million innocent people and turn another 2 million into refugess)--well then you have done nothing but let horses out of the barn that you may never be able to get back in and you lose in the long run.

No one likes torture, but the world ain't perfect peeps. There's some real shit on the earth and those peeps cut peeps heads off and fly planes into buildings.

If the only way the Prez can get info out of a person is to scare him a lil bit with waterboarding, then so be it.

The abu graib shit was just some fucked perverted shit and those peeps have been prosecuted, iirc.

I dont even agree with calling waterboarding torture. And if I thought someone had info about an attack on the US, I'd go further than waterboarding, thats for sure.

Fuck these low lifes.

Waterboarding isn't torture? That's a prick point of view, no doubt.

Relative to gouging someones eyes out or dislocating their shoulders, etc, no, it is not torture.

Denny, what about our good christian soldiers? What about our "God Bless America" bullshit?

And when we are torturing someone--is that going to make him forget about god? Are we torturing "fanatics" or just anyone we think can give us some sort of information?

Torture, in this case, is for information gathering.


Torture is wrong, and a society that is flouting human rights in the faces of any other country shouldn't be violating human rights.

Torture has been around as long as mankind has existed. And please explain to be the notion of "human rights"? Do Islamic fundamentalists understand that concept? Does the Taliban understand that concept? "Human Rights" is for the self-righteuos to feel good about themselves, that they're BETTER than their opponent. Believe me, the opponent here doesn't give a rats ass about "human rights".


Now, if we'd have taken Afghanistan, and went in with the idea of nation building there, and then trained their guys and more of our guys to do a little, ah, "dirty work"--and turned the Middle East into a killing field for terrororrroororrrists--by getting the locals in all countries on our side and helping remove or alleviate their fear of rogue groups who force them to store arms, join their causes, forfeit their women, and wallow in poverty and fear, then well, you have a winnable cause.

Afghanistan is not a nation. Iraq is not a nation, nor is Iran. They are tribes, religious factions, regions, bordered together on a piece of parchment called a map. The British designed the Middle East, and both they and the French proceeded to fuck it all up. So, it's impossible to determine whether these "citizens" would actually give enough of a flying shit about their so-called country to do anything. Considering how prevalent dictatorial regimes are in this region, I would say "not enough".


Go in with Big Booms, destroy the countries and the tenuous balances, appear imperialistic, clash ideologies, and then do nothing to help the people out (and of course, kill about half a million innocent people and turn another 2 million into refugess)--well then you have done nothing but let horses out of the barn that you may never be able to get back in and you lose in the long run.

Not really, but you have the right idea. Force is useless without some application of it. Having a missile is "having a missile", but testing that missile effectively is "having a missile that can reach out and touch your ass anywhere". Going in with the promise of peace is one thing, but what happens if a faction doesn't WANT peace? What are you going to do about them? If the answer is nothing, then you've suddenly instilled courage and confidence within them, and their cause gains momentum. If you attempt diplomacy, and it fails, your next move MUST be a military attack, and you MUST destroy them with furious rage. It sounds deplorable, but this is all the people in that part of the world understands. To them, democracy is just a word. You must be the alpha. You must be the dominant King. THEN they will listen. It's simply the natural order of things over there.

Torture has been around as long as mankind has existed. And please explain to be the notion of "human rights"? Do Islamic fundamentalists understand that concept? Does the Taliban understand that concept? "Human Rights" is for the self-righteuos to feel good about themselves, that they're BETTER than their opponent. Believe me, the opponent here doesn't give a rats ass about "human rights".

The question of torture isn't about them it's about us. Do we want to be a country that tortures? Is that one of the values we spend blood and treasure to defend? Hint: no.

If we can't be BETTER than this opponent then fuck us, we don't have shit here worth defending.

We can be better but more of our citizens will die, cuz we can do more to our children in this country legally than we can someone who is trying attack us.

That's right. We can do more to ourselves, who's rights we are sure of and who's protections we are confident in, then to those who don't receive the privilege of American protection 24/7. But actually we can do equal to all people. What we devise as good for us should be what we decide as good for us and vice versa.

This country is an idea, and that idea can only be truly threatened from within.

We can be better but more of our citizens will die, cuz we can do more to our children in this country legally than we can someone who is trying attack us.

That's only true in the context of a false dichotomy between torture and doing nothing. We can oppose them without debasing ourselves to become them.

Our current NSA guy says it gave us a ton of info though. Now that Obama has released some of the docs that do support your side, he needs to release the stuff tha Hoekstra and Chenney want him to release. Oh and un-redact (<--sorry bout that,don't know how else to say it) the statements by the current NSA guy.

I'm willing to have this debate now thats its out there. Get it all out. Lets get Tenet into this too.

Its a debate worth having.

Our current NSA guy says it gave us a ton of info though. Now that Obama has released some of the docs that do support your side, he needs to release the stuff tha Hoekstra and Chenney want him to release. Oh and un-redact (<--sorry bout that,don't know how else to say it) the statements by the current NSA guy.

I'm willing to have this debate now thats its out there. Get it all out. Lets get Tenet into this too.

Its a debate worth having.

Perhaps but I'm not arguing the practical effectiveness of torture. I think the question is moot because we shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

The question of torture isn't about them it's about us. Do we want to be a country that tortures? Is that one of the values we spend blood and treasure to defend? Hint: no.

If we can't be BETTER than this opponent then fuck us, we don't have shit here worth defending.

I understand your view, but you need to ask yourself: Is this anything NEW for the U.S. -- torture, that is?

Don't fool yourself -- the U.S. is a leader in torture methods. It's just not something Tom Brokaw would talk about on the Evening News. It a back room thing, done in places people never talk about, to people 99.999% of Americans don't know exist.

We have NEVER been squeaky clean. I'm sure we're one of the dirtiest players in the game. Always have been.

I understand your view, but you need to ask yourself: Is this anything NEW for the U.S. -- torture, that is?

Don't fool yourself -- the U.S. is a leader in torture methods. It's just not something Tom Brokaw would talk about on the Evening News. It a back room thing, done in places people never talk about, to people 99.999% of Americans don't know exist.

We have NEVER been squeaky clean. I'm sure we're one of the dirtiest players in the game. Always have been.

The NEW part is that it's no longer a hypothetical conspiracy theorist question. For better or worse, this country's conduct in the last few years has brought the question of torture out of the back room and into the spotlight where sides have to be taken.

The NEW part is that it's no longer a hypothetical conspiracy theorist question. For better or worse, this country's conduct in the last few years has brought the question of torture out of the back room and into the spotlight where sides have to be taken.

Moral sides, or political?

This is the ol' Potomac two-step. They talk and talk about resolve, but nothing ever gets done. The libs please their constituents by taking an anti-torture stance, as do the conservs with their pro stance.

But, as they talk, the torture continues.

BTW, the mere fact that we are openly discussing the rights and wrongs of torture and whether or not it's the correct path to take defines us as a nation. Morality has nothing to do with it, since the concept of "what is moral" is purely relative.

The NEW part is that it's no longer a hypothetical conspiracy theorist question. For better or worse, this country's conduct in the last few years has brought the question of torture out of the back room and into the spotlight where sides have to be taken.

The terrorists on 911 did that, not the conduct of our country, imo.

I could just imagine if we kept getting attacked, the lefts tact would be on opposite side saying we are weak.

The terrorists on 911 did that, not the conduct of our country, imo.

I could just imagine if we kept getting attacked, the lefts tact would be on opposite side saying we are weak.

And yet there was already intelligence that Bin Laden was planning a big attack in the US. Was that information attained by torture?

The morality issue aside (and I'm absolutely against it), it's effectiveness is debatable at best and it seems to simply cover up the fact that real intelligence work, when correctly invested in, carried out and listened to can work.

Pelosi ruined this for Democrats.

On it's surface, the entire objective was pinning this on Bush Admin. officials.

But now that you have documented evidence that people like Pelosi & Schumer were briefed on this and gave it the thumbs up, it really took a turn for the worse (which was about the time when Obama really started to move on from this).

Not to mention, the fact that the CIA Director whom Obama appointed coming out and telling the media that they DIDN'T lie to Pelosi realllllly doesn't help.

Even Steny Hoyer and Joe Lieberman have taken the liberty of discrediting Pelosi's credibility on the matter.

Of course, MSNBC doesn't care since they believe Nancy Pelosi is a woman of great integrity, wisdom, and honesty.

I heard someone say its a 'shame Pelosi has to go through this'

lmao.

And yet there was already intelligence that Bin Laden was planning a big attack in the US. Was that information attained by torture?

The morality issue aside (and I'm absolutely against it), it's effectiveness is debatable at best and it seems to simply cover up the fact that real intelligence work, when correctly invested in, carried out and listened to can work.

Not all info will be attained by torture. No one is saying that, but when they had some higher ups that weren't talking, its ok to have 2 doctors present while you scare the guy into talking.

The effectiveness will not be debatable once Mr Transparency releases the docs that Chenney and Hoekstra want released.

We're not talking about gouging eyes out here peeps.

If Clinton had done it, nobody would care.

It's simply Democrats trying to score brownie points by taking advantage of the unpopularity of the previous administration.

And their stupidity is starting to bite some of them in the ass.

To be perfectly honest, I bet BO would do it too. He just hasn't been faced with it yet.

Its easy to campaign on whats correct, but once they get in the real world, he sees he has to do some of these things.

I actually commend Obama for moving away from it. It's simply a waste of time and there aren't enough people in this country who genuinely care about the issue to make it even remotely worthwhile.

Obama's taking heat from the far-left, but those constituents aren't going to abandon him anyway.

Kind of like Troopergate and Sarah Palin. Fluff.

To be perfectly honest, I bet BO would do it too. He just hasn't been faced with it yet.
How would you know?

If Clinton had done it, nobody would care.

It's simply Democrats trying to score brownie points by taking advantage of the unpopularity of the previous administration.

And their stupidity is starting to bite some of them in the ass.

Can we make it so that Ledezma's posts are always in the form of a quote attributed to Bill Bennet? I mean essentially the kid just watches for the latest remark from the dude and reposts it on here.

I've posted about this in the past and didn't think I had any new thoughts on the subject or a need to dwell on it. This most recent flak does bring up one point that I don't think I've articulated, though.

Say you're the U.S. and you want to torture. Obviously, you don't want to let the world know, so as to avoid the negative consequences. To what extent do you go to conceal this, and what do those actions say about you?

- Do you bury prisoners, deny them due process indefinitely? Should you spend effort learning how to torture without leaving marks?

- Do you inform upper-level politicians, or not? If a politician indicates that they don't want to know about torture, do you tell them?

Never mind the torture itself... I'd submit that the collateral supporting shit that goes along with torture is hazardous to the American ideal.

Why is it so difficult for some to comprehend the fanaticism we're dealing with, here? These are not terrorists... they are soldiers of God. They believe God will take them to a better place. They believe that willingly giving information to the enemy will disallow this passage. They are blinded by a false prophet, and cannot fathom the human cost of their plight. Sometimes, there is simply no other way to extract intel from these individuals but for certain types of torture.



Put another way, back in middle school there were certain kids who could not be reasoned with, no matter how many times sent to the Principal's office, or politely asked by a potential victim NOT to take the lunch money. They didn't understand verbal communication, whether it be because of a destructive home environment, or simply due to their popularity (top of the food chain). Sometimes, torture is the only solution. Torture is the most basic, animalistic form of punishment, and it's something we all understand. Keep in mind, the type of torture varies from person to person, and torture doesn't necessarily need to be physically violent to be effective. For instance, you don't physically beat the kid... you humiliate him. Will it leave a mental scar? Sure. So does prison. So does physical torture. So do a lot of other things. But, humiliation directly attacks his power base (that of intimidation) and with the fear of future humiliation hanging over his head, he'll think twice about pushing around little Gl'enn again.

There has to be an end game to the torture.

a) Did it perform the necessary task efficiently?
b) Was it effective?
b) Did it alter the mentality of the person?

Example. Say I wanted to torture Bukdow due to him posting something about my mama. What can I possibly use that will be sufficiently quick, gain the maximum amount of success, and ensure he'll NEVER do what he did again? If I find him and beat the holy snot out of him, I surely punished him, but also left a deep-seated grenade of resentment within him. So I secured "A", and perhaps "B", but failed on "C". Though he may not post against me again, he'll find another way to detonate that grenade and exact revenge.


http://doesitallmatter.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/blackj11.jpg

I nominate Comrade.

I think Denny is a lot smarter than we thought.

I do agree with the following (and fixed it!):


. If you attempt diplomacy, and it fails, your next move MUST be a military attack, and you MUST destroy them with furious anger. It sounds deplorable, but this is all the people in that part of the world understands. To them, democracy is just a word. You must be the alpha. You must be the dominant King. THEN they will listen. It's simply the natural order of things over there.

The problem many have with this idea is that the United States should not be the dominant King! The United Nations should take the heat for this and your government should do everything in it's power to convince the UN to act.

If the UN does nothing I understand that steps need to be taken but you need to realise that by stepping in to do the deed and take the heat the shit will reign down on you like there's no tomorrow.

And at no time do you need to torture people in order to defeat the enemy. You simply fucking kill 'em. Or you kill enough of them to make them back the fuck up. The US captured many "terrorists" and tortured many. Are there details on the tortures that produced no intel? Were any innocent people tortured?

Change the debate for a minute and see if you get where I'm going:

The death penalty! Some are all for it. Others are dead (lol) against it.

The problem people have with the death penalty is "what if you kill an innocent man?"

Same thing with torture - "what if you torture an innocent man?"

Well, congrats - you just made a new enemy.

Or do some people have their heads so far up their own asses that they don't see that by stepping in to do "the right thing" that you actually give the enemy exactly what it wants?

Which is evidence of your attempted "takeover" of their country and/or their religion and/or their shit

1) The UN is a bunch of pussies.
2) When we let the UN decide and they do nothing, we still get the blame.
3) When we let the UN decide and they act and don't succeed, we still get the blame.

It's a nice thought that the US shouldn't be king but we have all the power and you bitches whine and complain about us no matter what. That's just how it is when you are on the top of the hill. It won't be the case forever, it is the case right now.

The UN is completely useless, and I don't wanna hear ANYBODY on this board say a fucking word otherwise.

The UN "should" contain the greatest minds representing the member countries in relation to their fields of endeavor. But instead we have politicians, hand-me-downs, and appointees who seem to know as much about Sociology 101 and elementary PoliSci as Mike Brown knew about disaster relief.

The problem with the blue hats is that they're a multi-national force. When push comes to shove, and you're a UN soldi.. um, "peacekeeper", are you really going to lay down your life for an institution? For the security of your beloved country, yes. For the UN, no. And if an illustrator who lives in Cali, but posts on a Detroit-intensive forum knows this, then those bent on destruction know this, as well.

LOL on the Pulp Fiction fix, P.

Also, a lot of people in this world hate us not because we play the "dominant king", but because we are wildly inconsistent in that role. One day we can support a dictatorial regime to advance our "interests", and five years later we support guerillas to overthrow him. In the middle are citizens caught in this political bullshit, and they wonder why their brothers died for the installation of this U.S. puppet regime, only to have the U.S. renege as seek to have him ousted? THAT fuels hatred far quicker than anything I can imagine. They feel their lives mean little to us, that this is merely some game we play to support our greedy interests -- which is true to a certain extent.

But getting back to the "people". Keep in mind, these are simple folk living in a fairly simple society. Comparatively speaking, they have limited resources, limited media, and limited freedom. They know what NOT to say, and what parts of town to stay away from. They know their leader is merciless at times, and soldiers in the streets can kill you on a whim. These people have been bred from day one to be fearful and submissive. They're not BAD people, or cowardly people... that's just the way they live. Moreover, they will follow WHOEVER is in power. A King is killed, a dictator overthrown, a coup d'éta overthrows a government, and each time the majority of the people ALLOW it to happen without resistance. Not all, but a vast majority. Coming in as the dominant King means STAYING the dominant King.

Read up on Hannibal during the Second Punic War, and how he enlisted from within Italy. It's a textbook example of how to invade a country.

And now, for my finale, I will channel my inner KoolAid in response to this:


I think Denny is a lot smarter than we thought.


thank you (unless that was sarcastic, then i must say fuck you.)

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.asp

How would you know?

I get daily briefings

Can we make it so that Ledezma's posts are always in the form of a quote attributed to Bill Bennet? I mean essentially the kid just watches for the latest remark from the dude and reposts it on here.

Bill Bennet's show is on while I'm sleeping, FWIW.

I typically don't listen to much right-wing talk radio. I'll listen to maybe an hour of Rush, some Hugh Hewitt and that's about it. I don't listen to Hannity on the radio since it's pretty much a clone of his tv show.

The majority of my fill comes from blogs like RedState.

I get drunk and make shit up.

Bill Bennet's show is on while I'm sleeping, FWIW. So I pipe it directly into my brain through electrodes and put it on mega repeat.
I typically don't listen to much right-wing talk radio once I have it all memorized. I'll listen to maybe a day of Rush, tons of Hugh Hewitt and that's about it. Then it's Christian Soldier Radio. I don't listen to Hannity on the radio since I usually have his cock in my mnouth and he feeds me info through his jizz.

The majority of my fill comes from blogs like RedState and KKK or Die Motherfucker.

I've posted about this in the past and didn't think I had any new thoughts on the subject or a need to dwell on it. This most recent flak does bring up one point that I don't think I've articulated, though.

Say you're the U.S. and you want to torture. Obviously, you don't want to let the world know, so as to avoid the negative consequences. To what extent do you go to conceal this, and what do those actions say about you?

- Do you bury prisoners, deny them due process indefinitely? Should you spend effort learning how to torture without leaving marks?

- Do you inform upper-level politicians, or not? If a politician indicates that they don't want to know about torture, do you tell them?

Never mind the torture itself... I'd submit that the collateral supporting shit that goes along with torture is hazardous to the American ideal.

Libs always talking about life in an 'ideal' world. Problem is, we don't live in it.

I get daily briefings

So, lemme see if I have this straight...

Tahoe is in California
Nancy Pelosi is in California

Tahoe gets briefings
Nancy Pelosi gets briefings.

Is there a connection?
Hmmm... HMMMM....
LOL

So, lemme see if I have this straight...

Tahoe is in California
Nancy Pelosi is in California

Tahoe gets briefings
Nancy Pelosi gets briefings.

Is there a connection?
Hmmm... HMMMM....
LOL

I heard Tahoe gets "de-briefed" by Pelosi, them turns around and plugs Barbara Boxer AND Diane Feinstein.

What a fucking animal!!!!

Why is the KKK always synonymous with the GOP?

The most prominent clan member (current or former) in this country is Senator Byrd, the president pro tempore, a Democrat.

Why is the KKK always synonymous with the GOP?

The most prominent clan member (current or former) in this country is Senator Byrd, the president pro tempore, a Democrat.


Just guessing here, but if you did poll a KKK rally they would lean to the right.

I would think David Duke is a more well known name, also a Dem btw.

So, lemme see if I have this straight...

Tahoe is in California
Nancy Pelosi is in California

Tahoe gets briefings
Nancy Pelosi gets briefings.

Is there a connection?
Hmmm... HMMMM....
LOL

Now thats a low blow. :)

Seriously, when I said he hadn't experienced that yet or something, I was talking about a high up douche in AQ being captured. We always here when a high up douche gets captured and I hadn't heard any since Mr Transparency took office.

But you are right, I don't know that for sure.

The 'ehanced interrogation in certain circumstances' proponents won this discussion, btw.

Libs always talking about life in an 'ideal' world. Problem is, we don't live in it.

LOLOLOL

Free Market

LOLOLOLOL

Sorry Foo, WTF are you talking about?

Actually, I should have written...

Sorry Foo, but WTF are you talking about?

I think I know but I'd like to make sure before I reply.

You know what I'm talking about.

I wouldn't have written that if I knew.

Yes you would. You love to post.

Serves can't stop talking about how everything works out in a free market ideal. Hence the hell we are going through now and the absolute wacko's who still clamor for less regulation.

And Libs talk about moral ideals, which while equally impossible to achieve, at least is something worth shooting for.

gotcha...

I don't think Cons feel that things will be perfect. I dont' think Cons feel they can make the straight line out of our imperfect society.

I dont' think Conservatives feel there is a whole of perfectness in our world, but want to keep the Gov't out of our hair, keep taxes lower and let the chips fall.

I'm not saying NO regulation, but not a lot. The housing thing was caused by a big push to get peeps who can't afford mortgages, mortagages.

BTW...I'm not sure Bush was much of a conservative.

Bush wasn't much of anything.

Well for me, he did what it took to keep the terrorists from attacking us again. He took a lot of heat for it, but he did his 8 years.

And BO is now validating a lot of how Bush fought the war.

The terrorist were in Afghanistan.

For me, he did what it took to line the pockets of his contributors and clean up the mess his daddy left when he decided not to kill that prick the first time.

I can't disagree with the 1st part, the 2nd part I really disagree with. I don't think he put military peeps lives on the line for money.

And I'm not just talking about the war(s). I'm taling about what he did here, enhanced inter, etc.

It's always for money, its always the poor that get sent, there's always a way to buy your way out, it's always a crime.

The revolutionary war, the civil war, the Spanish American war, etc, etc, etc.

Well, we were attacked. I honestly believe this was about not being attacked again.

911 shocked the US. He wasn't gong to let that happen again.

I dont' think Conservatives feel there is a whole of perfectness in our world, but want to keep the Gov't out of our hair, keep taxes lower and let the chips fall.

Realizing of course that the steady erosion of due process, privacy and civil liberties we've had since 9/11 are diametrically opposed to "keeping the Gov't out of our hair."

Well, we were attacked. I honestly believe this was about not being attacked again.

911 shocked the US. He wasn't going to let that happen again.

If it was about not being attacked again then where is the body of OBL?

Is the USA still looking for him?

How can you guys find Saddam in a hole in Iraq but you can't find OBL?

If it was about not being attacked again then where is the body of OBL?

Is the USA still looking for him?

How can you guys find Saddam in a hole in Iraq but you can't find OBL?

Bin Laden is already dead. Without him, there would no longer be a need for war. As long as the public believes he is still alive, then there is cause.

Case in point: with all of the wealth this man has, he still finds a way to videotape himself on, apparently, shitty equipment from the 1980's. Naturally, the lower the quality, the more difficult it is to discern the real Bin Laden from actors.

The Iraq war ISN'T about Iraq as so much it is about:

a) staking claim right in the heart of Terrorville, where ground-based jets can reach out and touch anywhere in the Middle East within, literally, minutes. We no longer require neither Turkish nor French permission to access airspace via Germany.

b) instead of scouring the world, looking for terror cells in hostile and reletively unknown environments, we control iraq and have the terrorists come to us. Once there, we capture them, torture them to extract information, then send special forces around the globe to gather corroborating intel and launch precision strikes.

Any of you ever wonder where all of those billions of dollars are going to? Well, it's not cheap or easy to operate a dozen or so special forces operations. Congress won't DARE partition the funds to support assassinations, so the money is lumped into the "war effort".

Note how Obama changed his tune after his first "secret meeting" after the election? Well, he found out the truth.

Realizing of course that the steady erosion of due process, privacy and civil liberties we've had since 9/11 are diametrically opposed to "keeping the Gov't out of our hair."

See Dick Cheney...no due process for fucked up terrorists.

Who's privacy was invaded where they were hurt? Name a couple. I've been asking this for years.

Civil Liberties? Some of 'freedoms' have been reduced cuz these cock suckin bastards will blow up an airplane with children in it. So it takes us longer to get on a plane cuz of the fuckin terrorists. Big fuckin deal.

Gee you can normally keep things short and to the point, so who can you name that had...

erosion of due process
Privacy
civlil liberties

have been sooooooo eroded.

If it was about not being attacked again then where is the body of OBL?

Is the USA still looking for him?

How can you guys find Saddam in a hole in Iraq but you can't find OBL?

Apparently in cave some fuckin where. He damn sure has been hiding. And did NOT attack the US again.

Gee you can normally keep things short and to the point, so who can you name that had...

erosion of due process
Privacy
civlil liberties

have been sooooooo eroded.


presumably me. But I can't file a FOIA to find out. And that isn't worth stopping a terrorist attack.

The Iraq War is about us having an oil stronghold in the middle east while the Chinese re-colonize Africa to make a stunning natural resources grab--and we stay friends with them because they are doing the dirty work the world has wanted for so long: to turn Africa into a giant factory. It's a grand plan if you pause to think about it. Russia is OK--they've got tons of oil. It will be down to China, Russia, Norf America, and of course, Souf America will be the worlds farm field one day. Ho my--it's a coming, the New World Order.

presumably me.

You were harmed how?

You were harmed how?

By the erosion of the so-called values of being an American. The ideal of being American. The staunch belief that we are better than those who violate the rights of human beings. By seeing that the rights of human beings only apply so far as to protect American business and political interests. By being embarrassed to be American because of the Hypocrisy with which this country is governed. And by seeing so many Americans blindly support things like torture and the abandonment of their own freedoms to support a policy that is dangerous to the world and has made many more people angry with us. And by knowing that it didn't have to be that way.

By the erosion of the so-called values of being an American.

One of our first values is to defend this country, imo. Defend our children and families against terrorists.

The ideal of being American. The staunch belief that we are better than those who violate the rights of human beings.

So fucks around the world, and in this country, want to fly planes into building and murder thousands of innocent US citizens and other innocent citizens, and we can be better than them by just asking them nice little questions when we think we have mastermind of attacks on the US?

We want to stop them from murdering us first.


By seeing that the rights of human beings only apply so far as to protect American business and political interests.

We haven't lost any rights, we've lost freedoms caused by the terrorists.

By being embarrassed to be American because of the Hypocrisy with which this country is governed. And by seeing so many Americans blindly support things like torture

There is no blindly about any of my support. And a lot of others too. We faked some guys to think they were being drowned. WITH 2 DOCTORS PRESENT AT ALL TIMES.

Y'all call that torturing someone who orchestrated the murder of thousands of Americans and other innocent citizens on 9 11???


and the abandonment of their own freedoms to support a policy that is dangerous to the world and has made many more people angry with us. And by knowing that it didn't have to be that way.

By the erosion of the so-called values of being an American. The ideal of being American. The staunch belief that we are better than those who violate the rights of human beings. By seeing that the rights of human beings only apply so far as to protect American business and political interests. By being embarrassed to be American because of the Hypocrisy with which this country is governed. And by seeing so many Americans blindly support things like torture and the abandonment of their own freedoms to support a policy that is dangerous to the world and has made many more people angry with us. And by knowing that it didn't have to be that way.

Pardon me, but that's so fucking self-righteous, my computer almost seized.

We've ALWAYS been that way. Colonizing America. Slaves. Massacres of entire indian tribes (the REAL Americans, BTW), concocting the Spanish-American War, remaining stubbornly neutral through two world wars until the situations suited us (that includes Pearl Harbor.. where our newer Aircraft Carriers were all conveniently out of harbor when the bombing occurred). Korea. Vietnam. The Philippines. Nicaragua. Panama. The Gulf Wars, etc. etc.

I, for one, am not embarrassed to be an American. We've been soft for far too long, afraid what other might think. Well, when you're the top dog for as long as we've been, others are going to despise you no matter WHAT you do.

Violating human rights, huh? Well, how about all of the fucking human relief efforts we put forth, both as Americans and as a government, each year? How about trying to help in Somalia? How about regularly cleaning up the U.N.'s messes due to their unimaginable ineptness? How about global disaster support? I truly don't give a flying fucking shit about some dirtbag accused terrorists. They had weapons. They had those weapons pointed at our men. They were captured. They were interrogated (and perhaps tortured). The Geneva Convention? How about when the fucking assholes tear off the head of a hostage and proudly send the videotape to gawddamn Al Jazeera??? Where's the Geneva Convention then???? Oh, yes.... the Geneva Convention was designed to apply to waring NATIONS.

Can you please point to the area on the map where the country of Hamas is?

How about the nation of Al Queda?

This goes back to the same motherfucking point I made earlier. The school bully doesn't follow the so-called "rules". He feels untouchable, beyond the rules, and no straight talk is going to change him. He MUST be completely humiliated to understand he is NOT the dominant King in that school, and it must be carried out sans caring or mercy. It's Basic Human 101... in fact, it's Basic Animal Kingdom 101.

When you think of it, this is exactly the sort of thinking terrorists utilize, but rather than humiliation, it's fear.

Violating human rights, huh? Well, how about all of the fucking human relief efforts we put forth, both as Americans and as a government, each year? How about trying to help in Somalia? How about regularly cleaning up the U.N.'s messes due to their unimaginable ineptness? How about global disaster support?

So it's like carbon cap and trade... for our values. If we feed some people in one place, we can torture some in another and it's all good because we come out ahead on the balance sheet.


This goes back to the same motherfucking point I made earlier. The school bully doesn't follow the so-called "rules". He feels untouchable, beyond the rules, and no straight talk is going to change him. He MUST be completely humiliated to understand he is NOT the dominant King in that school, and it must be carried out sans caring or mercy. It's Basic Human 101... in fact, it's Basic Animal Kingdom 101.

Some of us want to live in a country that aspires to more than basic animal kingdom 101. Set your sights higher.

Sorry, Denny, but you fail. Because you can't point to any place on the map and call that a country. If you believe in some sort of god--well, he crated a big rock, and it didn't have no fences or flags on it. And what fucking country is fucking Israel" Some made up piece of shit that is based on some made up and pirated mythology--and there we are partnering ourselves with it and there is nothing to prove it ever has or deserved to exist--FAIL EPIC FAIL.

There is no such thing as "terrorists"--there is no such things as countries or nationalities or PHONY FUCKING ASS RELIGIONS that all this shit is based on--it's all a phony funking man made lie--so Hamas has as much a right to any piece of land as America or fukcing Israel or Canada--because America and Canada are a phony fucking man made myth in the first place.

Sorry, Denny, but you fail. Because you can't point to any place on the map and call that a country. If you believe in some sort of god--well, he crated a big rock, and it didn't have no fences or flags on it. And what fucking country is fucking Israel&quot; Some made up piece of shit that is based on some made up and pirated mythology--and there we are partnering ourselves with it and there is nothing to prove it ever has or deserved to exist--FAIL EPIC FAIL.

There is no such thing as &quot;terrorists&quot;--there is no such things as countries or nationalities or PHONY FUCKING ASS RELIGIONS that all this shit is based on--it's all a phony funking man made lie--so Hamas has as much a right to any piece of land as America or fukcing Israel or Canada--because America and Canada are a phony fucking man made myth in the first place.You're so smart and literate, Zip. You have it figured all out, don't you?

You were harmed how?


Russell with a great post.

Where's the Geneva Convention then???? Oh, yes.... the Geneva Convention was designed to apply to waring NATIONS.

Can you please point to the area on the map where the country of Hamas is?

How about the nation of Al Queda?
The original Geneva Convention arose from a bloody battle with non-nations like Sardinia/Piedmont/Savoy as principle actors, and was signed by entities such as Saxony that weren't considered formal countries.

I think Ron Paul has the right idea on using the Constitutional mechanism of letters of marque and reprisal to deal with terrorist groups, much as they were used to deal with pirates through the War of 1812. We have a legal framework with historical precedent for pursuing extra-national thugs... let's use it.

We are the most powerful country the world has ever seen. Anyone who says we need to brutalize individuals to keep ourselves safe is insulting US.

We are the most powerful country the world has ever seen. Anyone who says we need to brutalize individuals to keep ourselves safe is insulting US.

We're dealing with an illogical mindset, here. Sometimes, brutal force is the only option.

As for the terrorists.... I'm sure dropping a 3000 pound laser guided bomb into the window of a hideout and pulverizing 100 men to mere atoms is far less brutal than torturing, under supervision, one terrorist.

We mourn as a media when innocent life is lost due to an errant ordinance drop or incomplete intelligence. It's OK to have a heart and to care, and it's okay to want to free a people and allow them a fighting chance to gain independence from tyranny (last time I checked, I think that's what we're trying to accomplish in Iraq), but understand that in a time of war you must perform necessary functions, and sometimes these functions are questionable at best.

We are the most powerful country the world has ever seen. Anyone who says we need to brutalize individuals to keep ourselves safe is insulting US.

Well it worked. Khalied Muhamed didnt' start singing til they faked him out by pouring some water over his head (with 2 doctors present). It saved innocent citizens lives.

If it was clear that it worked, you wouldn't have as big an argument.

Btw, it doesn't matter if it worked or not and if you don't understand that you missed the entire point of my last point.

If it was clear that it worked, you wouldn't have as big an argument.

Btw, it doesn't matter if it worked or not and if you don't understand that you missed the entire point of my last point.

I roll like that sometimes...most of the time.

And it did work.

Saying it doesn't make it true.

it didn't work if we were paying the people who did the torturing. Waste of resources. Same with the bombs.

Chicago radio host Erich "Mancow" Muller decided he'd get himself waterboarded to prove the technique wasn't torture.

It didn't turn out that way. "Mancow," in fact, lasted just six or seven seconds before crying foul. Apparently, the experience went pretty badly -- "Witnesses said Muller thrashed on the table, and even instantly threw the toy cow he was holding as his emergency tool to signify when he wanted the experiment to stop," according to NBC Chicago.

"The average person can take this for 14 seconds," Marine Sergeant Clay South told his audience before he was waterboarded on air. "He's going to wiggle, he's going to scream, he's going to wish he never did this."

Mancow was set on a 7-foot long table with his legs elevated and his feet tied.

"I wanted to prove it wasn't torture," Mancow said. "They cut off our heads, we put water on their face...I got voted to do this but I really thought 'I'm going to laugh this off.' "

The upshot? "It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke," Mancow told listeners. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back...It was instantaneous...and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."

"Absolutely. I mean that's drowning," he added later. "It is the feeling of drowning."

"If I knew it was gonna be this bad, I would not have done it," he said

OK, I'm done reading:

It seems some people are saying that torture is a worthy tool to use in certain situations and when at war shit is gonna happen that normally you wouldn't tolerate.

I think the other side is claiming that torture under any circumstances is not OK. These people are claiming that as "Americans" you guys are better than that, are different to all the crazy fuckers in the world and that your country should "try" to be that beacon of hope for the world.

I guess in the end it comes down to what you guys really feel is important for your country. Do you want the terrorists to get what they "deserve" or do you really wanna try and be the country that the rest of the world looks at and praises for your "enlightenment" (for lack of a better word).

The rest of the world can go batshit crazy, but as that "beacon of hope", that symbol of "greatness" the good ol' US of A doesn't join the fun - it speaks out against that shit, preaches diplomacy and all that stuff.

Is that realistic? Fuck No! But the fact remains that certain Americans do believe that they are "better" than the rest of us regular folk, simply because we're not Americans. If you wanna believe you're better, than act like it.

Don't act like little kids, saying "they attacked us first". That's a cop out and only proves that "America" isn't better, it's just like everyone else.

OK, I'm done reading:

It seems some people are saying that torture is a worthy tool to use in certain situations and when at war shit is gonna happen that normally you wouldn't tolerate.

I think the other side is claiming that torture under any circumstances is not OK. These people are claiming that as "Americans" you guys are better than that, are different to all the crazy fuckers in the world and that your country should "try" to be that beacon of hope for the world.

I guess in the end it comes down to what you guys really feel is important for your country. Do you want the terrorists to get what they "deserve" or do you really wanna try and be the country that the rest of the world looks at and praises for your "enlightenment" (for lack of a better word).

The rest of the world can go batshit crazy, but as that "beacon of hope", that symbol of "greatness" the good ol' US of A doesn't join the fun - it speaks out against that shit, preaches diplomacy and all that stuff.

Is that realistic? Fuck No! But the fact remains that certain Americans do believe that they are "better" than the rest of us regular folk, simply because we're not Americans. If you wanna believe you're better, than act like it.

Don't act like little kids, saying "they attacked us first". That's a cop out and only proves that "America" isn't better, it's just like everyone else.

Its not about terrorists getting what they deserve. WTF is that. Its not about vengeance. Its about protecting innocent victims from being murdered. Its about getting info to save innocent peeps lives.

So you can save all the torture(your word) for vengeance stuff.

Also, just by using the word 'torture' describing 'waterboarding' is mistating things in the first place from my pov.

2 fucking doctors and pouring some water over them isn't torture homes.

Did you not read Hermy's post, Tahoe?

Have you ever had "waterboarding" done to you? If you haven't then how the fuck do you know if it's "torture" or just uncomfortable?

War is vengeance. Nations don't go to war for something to do. They go to war for revenge after some attack (there are other reasons, but that's the main reason, right?)

I can save this "torture" for vengeance stuff? When did I say Americans tortured these terrorists for revenge? When I said terrorists "getting what they deserve" I didn't mean torture - it meant death.

To wage a "war" against these fucks in an attempt to protect innocent people is kind of fucked up though. Through death and destruction you will protect the innocent?

To torture some dude in an attempt to get info to protect innocent people is kind of fucked up too. Through intense pain you will find the answers you need to protect the innocent?

By waging the war and/or torturing these cunts you're saying that it's cool to fucking kill and/or hurt people, as long as you have a good reason for it.

Don't the terrorists think they have a good reason? Who are you to claim that they're reasons are invalid? They've got just as much right as you to decide what actions they impliment in their cause, right?

What a great fucking idea Tahoe - let's just have all these cunts run around and do whatever they think is justified, as long as they all have a good reason.

Some people in the world believe that there is no real different between the terrorists and the USA. Both sides believe they have been attacked. And both sides are willing to kill in an effort to show the world that they can't be fucked with and/or treated that way.

All this death and destruction is a good thing, right Tahoe? It's all about protecting the innocent people at home (and both sides will fight til the end of time for those innocents)

Some of that was just putting words in that I never even came close to saying, but...

Of course they feel like they are doing the right thing. I'm just not opposed to getting in the fuckin gutter right with them if thats the way they want to roll. Or at least let them think that.

But the pussy ass New York Times revealed our secrets and now the PRESIDENT OF THE FUCKING UNITED STATES revealed how we will deal iwth terrorists. Its a fuckin joke. Now they know how to prepare the terrorists.

This new war isn't about calling time so everyone can go eat lunch. There are no rules. You can't defeat an enemy with no rules when we have a bunch of pussies running things and all we can do is ask them if they would like to tell us how they are going to attack us. Its fuckin nuts.

And this fucking line here deserves a...(read below)



All this death and destruction is a good thing, right Tahoe? It's all about protecting the innocent people at home (and both sides will fight til the end of time for those innocents)


LMAO Yeah, thats what I'm saying.

You're so smart and literate, Zip. You have it figured all out, don't you?

Thank You.

http://truce.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/smug-lolcat.jpg

Zip, regretting those wings today?

Its not about terrorists getting what they deserve. WTF is that. Its not about vengeance. Its about protecting innocent victims from being murdered. Its about getting info to save innocent peeps lives.

Please clarify your position and explain how I put words in your mouth?

Many people in this thread are saying that it's cool to torture people because we're trying to protect innocent lives. Did you not agree with that?

You can't have it both ways Tahoe.

Either it's cool to torture fuckers to protect innocent people or it ain't.

Just remember that the other side is doing what it thinks will protect innocent people too.

Or do you not see that side of the coin?

USA wants to protect it's people from these fuckers.
These fuckers want to protect their people from the USA.

You see how that works?

And by engaging them in a battle of firepower you actually re-inforce their beliefs. How do you guys not see that? The enemy paints you as the interfering old man with all the guns and ammo and the desire to rule the world.

You then go into 2 different countries and with all the might of the US military you unleash "hell", taking over and eliminating the "government" in these countries.

(should be in all caps to deliever the point)

You Have Done Exactly What The Enemy Said You Would Do

You Have Fulfilled Their Bullshit!

This thread needs a highlight reel:


This country is an idea, and that idea can only be truly threatened from within.


Never mind the torture itself... I'd submit that the collateral supporting shit that goes along with torture is hazardous to the American ideal.


You Have Done Exactly What The Enemy Said You Would Do

You Have Fulfilled Their Bullshit!

I seriously need to make that point AGAIN!

You have done everything the enemy said you would do.

Now, if you're a non-believer in one of those shitty countries and a dude stood up and said that the great satan USA would drop bombs on your village, occupy your land and kill innocent people...

And then that all happened!

What the Fuck do you think the non-believer believes NOW?

How fucking hard is it to understand?

I realise it's the New World Order but FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111

Read the Art of War (and don't watch the shitty Wesley Snipes movie of the same name) for some fucking hints.

You're country has all the military might any country could ever need...

It's just a pity your elected government officials aren't fans of Spiderman.

Where did the enemy say that? And who gives a fuck what a murder says or thinks?

Oh thats right, all we need to do is be nice, sit down and talk to them for a while. Have a cup of tea and all will be better.

Where did the enemy say that?

Dude, do you have no idea who you're dealing with or the perception that certain people have of America?


And who gives a fuck what a murder says or thinks?

Oh thats right, all we need to do is be nice, sit down and talk to them for a while. Have a cup of tea and all will be better.

I'm guessing the enemy are saying the same thing about you - who gives a fuck what the murdering Americans say or think.

Oh that's right, you don't give a fuck because you're an American and because you have the military might you're allowed to do whatever the fuck you want, when you want, to whom you want.

Who's gonna stop you, right?

BTW, still waiting for you to point out where I put words in your mouth.

Saudia Arabia actually does toruture (not just scare peeps into thinking they are drowning) Syria, Egypt torture (not just the libs definintion of pouring water over someone as being torture. You act like we bring this on ourselves.

They tried to blow up the WTC in the 90s, they attacked us prolly 6 times of significance. Its a war. They hate us. They being radical who pervert the Islamic religion.

Dude, do you have no idea who you're dealing with or the perception that certain people have of America?



I'm guessing the enemy are saying the same thing about you - who gives a fuck what the murdering Americans say or think.

Oh that's right, you don't give a fuck because you're an American and because you have the military might you're allowed to do whatever the fuck you want, when you want, to whom you want.

Who's gonna stop you, right?

BTW, still waiting for you to point out where I put words in your mouth.

Just watched The Matrix again this week. Shit, maybe Bin Laden is really Morpheus, and the system is the enemy?

.....*

Nope.

I'm sure Mxy will correct me, but isn't the whole anti-American HATE thing centered around us being Israel's bitch?

But I forget... without the leading consumer nation this world has ever seen, the Middle East would still be "that desert over there". Sure, they'd still have oil money, but not nearly the riches they've amassed.

As for Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, etc. I really do not have a problem with "nations" in general. The Syrians and Jordanians have actually been pretty saavy during this whole mess, and Egypt secretly sides with us in many areas (as well as trains with American Special Forces from time to time). Obviously, with a large Muslim population, they cannot be so openly pro-American. An increase of attacks from within would surely erupt.

And that's what makes dealing with captive terrorists so unique. They are not a part of a national or multi-national unit. They are the mercenaries of religion, and answer to only that religion. The Japanese regarded the Emperor as a deity during WW2, and fought without mercy knowing they were fighting for THEIR God. They were infected with a notion that their very lives were being religiously sacrificed by God's word, which made death merely a portal to another kingdom.

How do you extract information from such a warrior? To him you are the devil, and speaking to you would defy his God. But, you need to know where he's from, where his "cell" is. If he talks, and you can ambush that terror cell, then that would be a dozen or so less combatants aiming AK-47's at American troops.

Whenever there's a surgical strike in the middle of nowhere, away from the main action, you have to wonder HOW we gathered that intel? I'm certain, more than just a couple of times, the information was collected through "intense questioning".

No, zdenny. More often than not the "intel" is gathered from informants, just like on CSI Miami or something. There's always someone who's willing to talk because he thinks he'll be put in charge when you kill the Big Cheese or just when you assure him that his 12 daughters won't be sold into slavery. Or, if you just give him 50 bucks.

And sometimes, alot of times, if you just axe him. The common man amidst these terrorririrorororororoists has been "recruited" not quite by his own will, and they are looking for an out alot of times. They are often more scared of terrororororists than your average Tahoe who listens to Glenn Beck all the day long.

Find the spare keys to the liquor cabinets, Zip?

Zip makes a good point. Not every enemy individual is that hardcore and every organization has soft spots that can be exploited for intel.

Remember that, in many cases, we've enabled scumbags in the region -- the house of Saud, the Shah of Iran, Musharaf, Saddam Hussein (anyone know what happened to his key to the city of Detroit?), etc. This is the climate in which the "faithful" are recruited. It's not hard to find people who tie deaths in the family or other badness and frustration to the U.S. It's not hard to fan that resentment into a flame of hostility. We've certainly done our part to keep it going. When talking about those countries that we've made rich, there's a few "haves" which we tend to support, and plenty of pissed-on pissed-off "have nots" which we generally don't. Israel is a big contributing factor, but our support for Israel is only part of the picture. Heck, some of the natural frictions are with the western world as a whole -- the countries established for trade purposes by Europe at odds with historical tribal boundaries, being sold out after helping overcome the Ottoman Empire, etc. There's a long line of crap, here.

Tahoe - you really need to understand the enemy and their reasons.

If you can't understand them how can you defeat them?

Dude, You really need to understand the terrorist. You do not.

Yep, sure.

I have no idea about what some dude in the Middle East thinks about America or the rest of the West, do I?

Get a clue: they will do whatever the fuck it takes to get their revenge. It appears we (meaning the West) will do whatever it takes to get our revenge on them for 9/11, for having too much oil, for plotting against us etc.

So here's the plan:

Let's capture these fucks and torture them for info we can use to capture and torture more of them! Yep, that'll work. Eventually we'll capture and torture or kill them all, right?

We better hope that plan works, cause based on what I've seen there is no other plan...

Tahoe knows the mind of the terrororororororrst. He's studied them for years, worked with them, among them, eaten the puss of their womenz. Tahoe knows these terirrrorororororororororsts are everywhere and it's just a matter of time before they unleash their terrorororororororor and kill us all.

Tahoe knows the mind of the terrororororororrst. He's studied them for years, worked with them, among them, eaten the puss of their womenz. Tahoe knows these terirrrorororororororororsts are everywhere and it's just a matter of time before they unleash their terrorororororororor and kill us all.

I wasn't the one who was implying that 'I know, but you don't know the minds of terrorists"

So take my post with a grain of salt.

Yep, sure.

I have no idea about what some dude in the Middle East thinks about America or the rest of the West, do I?

Get a clue: they will do whatever the fuck it takes to get their revenge. It appears we (meaning the West) will do whatever it takes to get our revenge on them for 9/11, for having too much oil, for plotting against us etc.

So here's the plan:

Let's capture these fucks and torture them for info we can use to capture and torture more of them! Yep, that'll work. Eventually we'll capture and torture or kill them all, right?

We better hope that plan works, cause based on what I've seen there is no other plan...

See, here ya go again...putting words in...

We poured water over the faces of 3 high value terrorists and got lots of info from 1 and from what I've read, not too much out of the 1 and a lil bit out of 1.

You are so far off when you try to restate my position. You act like its revenge. We had that discussion and if you don't want to believe what I said about that, then why debate me?

If you have a high value guy and he's not singing, make him sing. It worked on K Muhamed. We stopped the attack on the LA building. He also filled in a lots of pieces on how AQ operates. Before that, according to reports, he asked to see his lawyer. This aint criminal, its war. When its treated that way, you can gain some ground.

If you have a high value guy and he's not singing, make him sing. It worked on K Muhamed. We stopped the attack on the LA building.
The mastermind behind the would-be LA Liberty Tower attack was captured in February 2002. KSM was captured in March 2003.

AFAIK, and please correct me if I'm wrong:

KSM confessed to darn near everything, including stuff he didn't do. There was nothing new derived from his torture. The "new" bits of info pertaining to his capture involved the hard drive captured along with him. The impression I have was that he kept on singing to get them to stop torturing him. In turn, they kept on torturing him because he kept singing. Afterwards, memos were written patting themselves on the ass for a job well done, even though it was all bullshit and many of the CIA memos are as temporally challenged as those claims of preventing LA attacks.


He also filled in a lots of pieces on how AQ operates. Before that, according to reports, he asked to see his lawyer. This aint criminal, its war. When its treated that way, you can gain some ground.
Win the battle, lose the war.

I guess you can roll with what you read and heard and I can go with mine. I mean no disrespect by that, but thats all we can do out here.

If Mr Transparency wants to quit cherry picking the info he releases, we'll know more. It won't hurt anything anymore. The terrorists know what we do now cuz of Mr T, so lets get it out there.

I'm about spent on this topic P, so I'll just try to sum it up here with an analogy. If I knew a person knew of an attack on my son, I would do anything and everything to get that douche to talk.

I treat the country basically the same way. If I caught a high level perp and he wasn't signing, I'd do what I had to protect the country from murder.

I don't think its 'cool to torture' or whatever you said.

Tahoe, why couldn't we have just given the trerreororoists a warm bath or shower, or just let them run around in a rainstorm?

Tahoe, why couldn't we have just given the trerreororoists a warm bath or shower, or just let them run around in a rainstorm?

We could have just sent them to Omaha.

I'm about spent on this topic
Me too. The only stuff I think I added here about torture itself, beyond stuff I said years ago and don't feel the need to repeat, is the factual bits on current events. Honestly, it all feels like "light reading" compared to family medical shit.

This thread = ToRtUrE

Denny, if you think this thread is torture, get a friend to do what we've been doing to the terrrorororororists and have a friend pour a pitcher of water over you head. THEN you might rethink your position--

That is if you live to tell about it!

Denny, if you think this thread is torture, get a friend to do what we've been doing to the terrrorororororists and have a friend pour a pitcher of water over you head. THEN you might rethink your position--

That is if you live to tell about it!

If the water is Perrier, half of it will go into my mouth.

Only buk does his 'boarding with Perrier, nice try, Denny.

I'm about spent on this topic P, so I'll just try to sum it up here with an analogy. If I knew a person knew of an attack on my son, I would do anything and everything to get that douche to talk.

I treat the country basically the same way. If I caught a high level perp and he wasn't signing, I'd do what I had to protect the country from murder.

I don't think its 'cool to torture' or whatever you said.


I too realise that this thread will never end, as both sides believe what they believe and won't change their minds. It wasn't my intention to attempt to change any opinions, only to try and be speak plainly on what the terrorists believe/think.

They believe they are right.
They believe the West has fucked with them enough
They believe the West deserves to die for fucking with them.

Do I believe they are right? Maybe!

Maybe they are right and the West has fucked them over. I don't care though. You simply don't kill innocent people (I realise they don't think the people they kill are innocent). If you wanna fuck with the West then bomb military bases and attack policy makers, not regular folk who have no fucking say in it.

Since I have been "playing" for the terrorists I will now state my position on torture and the war:

Fuck em! Seriously, just fucking blow 'em all up. They wanna fuck around and cause all this shit in the world? Kill every fucking person in the Middle East. Problem is fucking solved.

Either bomb them to hell or send in a fucking mammoth army of stormtroopers and just blast every fucking thing that moves.

There will never be peace over there. They've been fighting each other for centuries and no "Satan" American is gonna get them to make peace with each other so fuck 'em - send them to Allah.

As for capturing and torture - sure, why the fuck not. Just cut a finger off everytime the prisoner refuses to answer. If you run out fingers use toes. If you have used the toes and fingers start with teeth, then the ears etc

Protecting innocent lives? Fuck no - I'd want the location of his camp, all the big players he's ever fucking seen or spoken to and their locations and then BOOM!

Fuck them up with more bombs and shit. Saving innocent people is just a by-product of killing evil fuckers. And yes they're evil. They live to fight a war they have no hope of winning on a battlefield so instead they blow up markets and cafes and buildings where regular people are.

What kind of coward shit is that? Fuck 'em!

Does anyone really think there is ever gonna be peace in the Middle East? If you do you're fucking crazy.

As for ruining the "American Ideal" - get with the times. It's 2009 and the American Ideal fucking died a long time ago. JFK, RFK, MLK died a long time ago and I think many older Americans will say that is when the American Ideal died too.

(Remember that I am an Australian and am basing my opinion on what I have read, seen and heard in my lifetime - I don't live there so I could be wrong)

Oh, and Tahoe:

I never said that you said "it was cool to torture". I never said you wanted revenge or vengeance.

But I do believe that many people around the world believe that the USA went fucking nuts in the Middle East because of 9/11. It's a Revenge Tour. Your former dumbass Pres even said "He tried to kill my Daddy" or some shit.

Maybe they are right and the West has fucked them over. I don't care though. You simply don't kill innocent people (I realise they don't think the people they kill are innocent). If you wanna fuck with the West then bomb military bases and attack policy makers, not regular folk who have no fucking say in it.
The policy makers respond better when innocents are attacked. And really, the innocents aren't so innocent since they participate in the political system that empowers the policy makers. Infidels, all!


As for capturing and torture - sure, why the fuck not. Just cut a finger off everytime the prisoner refuses to answer. If you run out fingers use toes. If you have used the toes and fingers start with teeth, then the ears etc
If they know you take no prisoners and will kill them after torturing them, they won't talk -- what's the point. Torture is most torturous when fucking with fear and hope. The boogeyman of torture undoubtedly extracts more info and "good behavior" than any actual torture. Torture is most effective when it's not certain, when there are rumors of unspeakable things, but nothing blatant to cause political complications.


As for ruining the "American Ideal" - get with the times. It's 2009 and the American Ideal fucking died a long time ago. JFK, RFK, MLK died a long time ago and I think many older Americans will say that is when the American Ideal died too.
We let Rupert Murdoch in from Australia and it's been downhill from there... :)


But I do believe that many people around the world believe that the USA went fucking nuts in the Middle East because of 9/11. It's a Revenge Tour. Your former dumbass Pres even said "He tried to kill my Daddy" or some shit.
Ron Artest didn't attack the guy who threw the cup at him.

Guess what's funny as fuck?

Tonight, on SBS (Australian TV network 95% of the population doesn't watch) there was a 1 hour show about The Torture Hunter. He works for the UN and goes around to countries and interviews detainees and dudes who have had their "Human Rights" violated.

Rather interesting... and timely.

Pity NCIS was on
and I was flipping over between the 2
and the Torture Hunter show was a bit boring
otherwise I might have been able to post a reasonable comment
and possibly even name the dude the whole fucking show was about

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred_Nowak

Mxy Is God!

That's the dude!

That dude, right there, that's Him!

BTW, I still love the term "enhanced interrogation". LMAO

Former Interrogator Rebukes Cheney For Torture Speech (VIDEO) (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/26/former-interrogator-rebuk_n_207483.html)



A former top interrogator is responding forcefully to the case Dick Cheney made on Thursday in favor of torture (what the former VP and his allies refer to as "enhanced interrogation methods.")

Brave New Films released a short video Tuesday of Matthew Alexander taking apart Cheney's argument piece by piece. Alexander, who uses a pseudonym for security reasons, was a 14-year military interrogator who oversaw more than a thousand interrogations and conducted more than 300 in Iraq himself. He led the interrogation team that scored one of the United States' most high-profile captures, that of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, and he did it using traditional methods.

Alexander easily takes down Cheney's arguments. The most immediate blow Alexander strikes is, of course, his obvious success, which undercuts Cheney's case for more brutal techniques. Alexander also engages on the level of principle. For Cheney, the suggestion that torture is a poor strategy because it aids terrorist recruitment is nothing more than old-fashioned blame-America-first cowardice.

"After a familiar fashion, it excuses the violent and blames America for the evil that others do," said Cheney.

The president and others who have condemned torture don't say that it "excuses the violent." Rather, they say it makes a violent reaction more likely -- and Alexander backed them up.

"At the prison where I conducted interrogations," responded Alexander, "we heard day in and day out, foreign fighters who had been captured state that the number one reason that they had come to fight in Iraq was because of torture and abuse, what had happened at Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib."

Alexander put the number making this claim at 90 percent.

Alexander, however, made a broader point at the end of his interview, one that would certainly evade Cheney's grasp, convinced as he is that Al Qaeda recruits "hate us for our freedoms."

Cheney, said Alexander, fundamentally misunderstands the way America is viewed around the world. The American principles of freedom and democracy are cherished in the Muslim world and the idea, at least, of America is still a seductive one. But it is the behavior of the Bush administration at Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib and secret prisons around the globe that undercuts that image, allowing Al Qaeda to make the argument that America isn't what it stands for.

"Remember," said Alexander, "one of Al Qaeda's goals, it's not just to attack the United States, it's to prove that we're hypocrites, that we don't live up to American principles. So when we use torture and abuse, we're playing directly into one of their stated goals."

hp;dr

The Telegraph:

At least one picture shows an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner while another is said to show a male translator raping a male detainee.

Further photographs are said to depict sexual assaults on prisoners with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube.

Another apparently shows a female prisoner having her clothing forcibly removed to expose her breasts.

Among the graphic statements, which were later released under US freedom of information laws, is that of Kasim Mehaddi Hilas in which he says: "I saw [name of a translator] ******* a kid, his age would be about 15 to 18 years. The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets. Then when I heard screaming I climbed the door because on top it wasn’t covered and I saw [name] who was wearing the military uniform, putting his **** in the little kid’s ***.... and the female soldier was taking pictures."

I hate people.

Also, you gotta give a link to that Herm. You can't lay that heavy shit down unattributed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5395830/Abu-Ghraib-abuse-photos-show-rape.html

I normally never link shit. Herm posted it, that's your link. Someone asks you where you heard it? Herm fucking said so. Exception for you since you know where I live and could come to my house and kill me with your bare hands.

Thx. I went to the Star-Telegram but didn't think of going over the ocean looking.

1) What the fuck is wrong with people? Who stands there and watches this happen and says, "Eh, I guess that shit is cool with me"?

2) Who the fuck is sick enough to film this shit?

Herm, Fool called me and told me where you live, so you better be cool with me. Otherwise, I'll come to your house and beat the hell out of your beer budget.

So we're discussing waterboarding in this thread or this perverted shit or what? All of it?

So we're discussing waterboarding in this thread or this perverted shit or what? All of it?



"The torture thing".

LOL...you group this shit together?

lololololololololololololololololololololololololo lolololololol

^ that was actually kind of fun doing all those lolololol

This thread does.

Gotcha, Thats like starting a thread about NBA FAs and Latch hooking.

Gotcha, Thats like starting a thread about NBA FAs and Latch hooking.


Tahoe, will you read the first post for me again? The one with the pics and torture and shit? If you take a look it's Ledezma who brings up the situations that were "enhanced interrogation". This thread is about torture. Thanks.

Yeah, sure...I'll get right on that. First I have to rearrange my sock drawer and finish counting my pubes, then I'll do that.

WTF is wrong with you old man? Raping a prisoner is torturing that prisoner. You don't have to be asking them questions for it to count as torture. People sometimes do that shit just because they like doing that shit.

Apparently, Americans like to do that shit pretty often. Looks like inappropriate touching isn't just a church thing.

Come on Youngster, be nice to your elders.

Seriously, I just draw a big distinction between Gov't authorized 'pouring water over their heads with 2 doctors present' and some fucked up peeps doing fucked up shit that no one authorized.

You make waterboarding sound like washing your hair.

^ with 2 doctors present.

You make waterboarding sound like washing your hair.

With Johnson and Johnson no more tears shampoo?

Come on Youngster, be nice to your elders.

Seriously, I just draw a big distinction between Gov't authorized 'pouring water over their heads with 2 doctors present' and some fucked up peeps doing fucked up shit that no one authorized.

http://tim3n.de/images/pathetic.jpg

Dubya agrees with Tahoe. Rape and torture are separate. Here's an eminently useful distinction:


One thing is for certain: There won't be any more mass graves and torture rooms and rape rooms.

Yeah, thats pretty good. Unfortunately its not what I said.

Thinking about this, yeah that was kind of a cheap shot. I apologize. I was looking for glue to wrap around Dubya's quote, which seemed appropriate.

Really, it's not so much the distinction between the torture and rape that's important, but the distinction between the past and the present. Saddam's folks tortured and raped. The U.S. tortures and rapes. Is there a useful distinction that would be understood and accepted? Does relative frequency (we don't rape and torture as much), authorization (those aren't OUR rape rooms) or monitoring (we monitor so well that it only comes out years after) really matter to our (literal) target audience?

No appology required, Mxy. Its all in good fun.

The target audience blows up innocent Iraqi women and children in markets in Iraq. Does it really matter what they think?

They hated us for a long time and will for a long time in the future. They pervert the teachings into a war.

To win the war, yeah, that's our target audience. To win the peace, it gets fuzzier. Domestic tranquility is about more than just whack-a-mole at active terrorists. If the bulk of the populace thinks you're a disruptive influence and full of shit, the ranks of the active terrorists will rise generationally. Heck, torture doesn't really hurt us among the current terrorists -- they already hate our guts.

Information given up for cookies. (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1901491-1,00.html)

I hope they at least poured a glass of milk on his face afterwards.


Abu Jandal had been in a Yemeni prison for nearly a year when Ali Soufan of the FBI and Robert McFadden of the Naval Criminal Investigative Service arrived to interrogate him in the week after 9/11. Although there was already evidence that al-Qaeda was behind the attacks, American authorities needed conclusive proof, not least to satisfy skeptics like Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, whose support was essential for any action against the terrorist organization.


Abu Jandal's guards were so intimidated by him, they wore masks to hide their identities and begged visitors not to refer to them by name in his presence. He had no intention of cooperating with the Americans; at their first meetings, he refused even to look at them and ranted about the evils of the West. Far from confirming al-Qaeda's involvement in 9/11, he insisted the attacks had been orchestrated by Israel's Mossad. While Abu Jandal was venting his spleen, Soufan noticed that he didn't touch any of the cookies that had been served with tea: "He was a diabetic and couldn't eat anything with sugar in it." At their next meeting, the Americans brought him some sugar-free cookies, a gesture that took the edge off Abu Jandal's angry demeanor. "We had showed him respect, and we had done this nice thing for him," Soufan recalls. "So he started talking to us instead of giving us lectures."


It took more questioning, and some interrogators' sleight of hand, before the Yemeni gave up a wealth of information about al-Qaeda — including the identities of seven of the 9/11 bombers — but the cookies were the turning point. "After that, he could no longer think of us as evil Americans," Soufan says. "Now he was thinking of us as human beings."


Soufan, now an international-security consultant, has emerged as a powerful critic of the George W. Bush — era interrogation techniques; he has testified against them in congressional hearings and is an expert witness in cases against detainees. He has described the techniques as "borderline torture" and "un-American." His larger argument is that methods like waterboarding are wholly unnecessary — traditional interrogation methods, a combination of guile and graft, are the best way to break down even the most stubborn subjects. He told a recent hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committee that it was these methods, not the harsh techniques, that prompted al-Qaeda operative Abu Zubaydah to give up the identities of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the self-confessed mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, and "dirty bomber" Jose Padilla. Bush Administration officials, including Vice President Dick Cheney, had previously claimed that Abu Zubaydah supplied that information only after he was waterboarded. But Soufan says once the rough treatment began — administered by CIA-hired private contractors with no interrogation experience — Abu Zubaydah actually stopped cooperating.

No Gee, Tahoe says it worked.

It must not have if that beacon of objectivity, Time, says it didn't.

It must not have if that beacon of objectivity, Time, says it didn't.

You understand that it's not "Time" editorially making these claims but professional interrogators who questioned suspects from 9/11 and various Iraq operations, right?

^

I'll go with what I've read and heard and y'all can go with your stories. We'll know as soon as Mr Transparency quits cherry picking what to release to suit him and the moveon peeps.

See Tahoe says it worked. So it worked. He has two crews.

Just offer them some tea and some hot meals and they'll tell you anything you want.

Now theres some logic for ya.

Makes you libs feel all warm and fuzzy and good and shit, huh?

Every interrogator out there says you get information by establishing trust. But don't let that stop you from jacking off to the idea of stripping a guy down to nothing but a sack on his head and slaping his ass with some rawhide to get him to talk.

Every interrogator out there says you get information by establishing trust. But don't let that stop you from jacking off to the idea of stripping a guy down to nothing but a sack on his head and slaping his ass with some rawhide to get him to talk.

LOL

"Every interrogator out there"

LMAO

I've yet to read an article yet that quotes an interrogator who says otherwise.

Well then roll with that. But every interrogator out there is a bit much.

If you read anything other than Glenn Beck fan blogs you'd know its not.

LOL

Hermy says Rush, you say Beck. You libs need to make your minds.

Well if you Serves had a real leader.

LOL

Hermy says Rush, you say Beck.

? I said I listened to him. I was not being facetious.

My bad

Every interrogator out there says you get information by establishing trust. But don't let that stop you from jacking off to the idea of stripping a guy down to nothing but a sack on his head and slaping his ass with some rawhide to get him to talk.


It's like they take pride in being ignorant.

Release all the transcripts Mr Transparency!

I'm really suprised y'all don't want it all out...then again, I'm not.

Just offer them some tea and some hot meals and they'll tell you anything you want.

Now theres some logic for ya.

Makes you libs feel all warm and fuzzy and good and shit, huh?
The easiest way to deal with an insurgency is to feed them.

How's that for some warm and fuzzy good shit?

It's like they take pride in being ignorant.

You hear all this bullshit they be talking these days? It's like motherfuckers is professional liars, man. 'swild.

It must not have if that beacon of objectivity, Time, says it didn't.

Beacon of objectivity, indeed. You have no right to ever use that phrase other than to indict yourself.

So...this thread was crazy, right? Wow.

I will have to be careful when I talk about "enhanced interrogation techniques" in real life. I don't want to set someone off.

This should help break the tension.

http://www.metatube.com/?Seccion=Videos&Accion=Ver&Video=6088

So...this thread was crazy, right? Wow.

I will have to be careful when I talk about "enhanced interrogation techniques" in real life. I don't want to set someone off.

Just keep it real.

If those fucks want to cut off heads of Americans, we should be able to pour water over their heads with 2 doctors present.

I hope that didn't sound like you set me off or anything like that, right? Wow.

LMAO @ Tahoe.

Just keep it real.

If those fucks want to cut off heads of Americans, we should be able to pour water over their heads with 2 doctors present.
Do you want to cut off heads of Muslims?

Heck, Obama's a Christian and you want to give him a mohawk. Of course, you want to give him a Muslim beard too. So your motives here are suspect. ;)

Just keep it real.

If those fucks want to cut off heads of Americans, we should be able to pour water over their heads with 2 doctors present.

I hope that didn't sound like you set me off or anything like that, right? Wow.


Do you get this mad when a young kid gets murdered in the streets of Detroit or Oakland? Do you get this mad when a woman gets raped and murdered anywhere?

Or do you just like to flout your patriotism and wave your flag while screaming out your right wing bullshit and regurgitate the criticisms Faux News and Rush Limbaugh feed to you?

It's more fun to pretend to be some know-it-all politically coherent blowhard when the problems you yap about don't really affect what goes on here. That was GDub and Cheney's way for 8 years--but too bad they fucked up so much on the only thing they really cared about, leaving guys like you with your flag-waving johnsons swinging in the wind.

I'm not an American so maybe I don't understand this complicated subject but:

If certain Americans believe that it's cool to torture other people then why is it bad for other nationalities to torture Americans?

I'm not saying I agree with it, but if US troops have tortured some Mexican (for example) then isn't fair for Mexican troops to torture an American?

Or is the torture justified because the "Mexican" bombs cities and kills innocent people?

Does it matter that the "Mexican" believes that the US has been doing exactly that to his country for years?

This whole situation is all kinds of fucked up and some people are too stubborn to see a different side of the coin.

I said it before and will say it again: If you can't understand your enemy, his motivations and the reasons why they do what they do how on Earth do you hope to stop what they do?

Through sheer military might?

All that does is create more fucking terrorists that have a real reason to wanna slay the "Great Satan".

People are so fucking short-sighted it blows my mind.

Do blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blahthe wind.

Your posts come across like this to me.

I always thought that was what you were reading Tahoe.

The fact that you can't understand the point gave it away.

Showing understanding and changing your stance are 2 different things.

It's a pity you couldn't be all gung-ho about killing the terrorists while also understanding that maybe, just maybe they have legit beef with the good ol' USA.

My fiance read this thread and she said that you (and a few others) just perpetuate (sp?) the arrogant American stereotype that exists.

I'm sure you don't care. Why would you? You're an American. Better than everyone else.

Right?

^ Dude Go fuck yourself and all your assumptions. I never said any of that shit.

Do you get this mad when a young kid gets murdered in the streets of Detroit or Oakland? Do you get this mad when a woman gets raped and murdered anywhere?

Or do you just like to flout your patriotism and wave your flag while screaming out your right wing bullshit and regurgitate the criticisms Faux News and Rush Limbaugh feed to you?

It's more fun to pretend to be some know-it-all politically coherent blowhard when the problems you yap about don't really affect what goes on here. That was GDub and Cheney's way for 8 years--but too bad they fucked up so much on the only thing they really cared about, leaving guys like you with your flag-waving johnsons swinging in the wind.

So just rip me and don't even address the subject.

Y'all liberal mother fuckers are the same God damn way. You couldn't reply to my point, so just bring in Rush and Fox News cuz thats the shit you get fed on your liberal web sites.

Also, bring up GDub and Chenney. You fucks are a bunch of weak ass, pink panty wearing faggots.

^ Dude Go fuck yourself and all your assumptions. I never said any of that shit.

^Steve

Steve can go fuck himself too. :)

Why would I wanna go fuck myself when I can visit this thread and fuck with you? It's much more fun.

I didn't say you said any of that shit. Did you see me quote your sorry ass?

No, so before you ONCE AGAIN claim I put words in your mouth re-read what I posted.

Reading is fundamental.

Common sense ain't all that common.

So just rip me and don't even address the subject.

Y'all liberal mother fuckers are the same God damn way. You couldn't reply to my point, so just bring in Rush and Fox News cuz thats the shit you get fed on your liberal web sites.

Also, bring up GDub and Chenney. You fucks are a bunch of weak ass, pink panty wearing faggots.

It's not that I can't reply to your point--I can't even RELATE to whatever points you are trying to make. You are an embarrassment to porgressive thinkers who know that the shit going on in the Middle East has quite a bit to do with our fucking things up over there, not the least of which is our stupid, mythology-based support of Israel. We're there for strategic purposes and we don't give a fuck about anything but the oil so we can fill up our gas-guzzling pieces of shit. Democracy? BULLSHIT! Freedom? BULLSHIT.
So the shit blows up and people over there see through our hypocracy and lop off a few American heads and blow up some Israelis because they are every bit as frustrated as they have a right to be--but instead of trying to work with them (because we will NEVER defeat them--as if we really wanted to, anyway) we join in the fun of blowing shit up and killing lots and lots of innocent people.

Terrorororororrororst or freedom fighters? It seems, anyway, that they're like the Myrmidons--kill one of them and two srping up from the dead body. But what they hey--it's more money for big defense corporations and the Haliburtons of the world, errr, U.S.--and it keeps right wing douchebags foaming at the mouth, and keeps them tithing and voting.

I actually think the Right Wing has a brilliant strategy--keep their ignorant masses pissed off, cloud the issues to drive the lazy voters and non activists away from the political process, and hope you have more votes than the far left wing. It worked for awhile until the country woke up and finally figured out just how dangerous OUR OWN jihadists are, and kicked them out (at least for awhile).

Conservatives think Libs are ignorant, Libs think conservatives are ignorant. Imagine that.

Conservatives don't think Libs are ignorant. They think Libs know they're smarter than everyone else and want to tell them how to live their lives. Conservatives know their intelligence level is, collectively, on par with a dead lobster. That's why Conservatives push fear, hatred, and bigotry. It's kind of like (as Al Franken said) porn. Conservatives always go for the facial, the money shot. That's why conservative radio and talk shows work. Liberal radio and talk shows are non-existent because there are no talking points, no fear or hatred to market, and no insecurities to play on. Why is Rush Limbaugh so popular? Because his audience is dumb, and he is funny as hell. But he has been pushing a very limited scope or thought for years and doesn't deviate from it--he's a great marketer and entertainer. Same with Faux News--loudmouths who just shout everyone who disagrees down and have no conversation or discourse with them. The conservative side will always rule on public airwaves because liberals just don't have time or are not insecure enough to fear and worry about everything, and don't want to waste the energy hating everybody, and don't need their fires stoked. We are simply just not that fucking stupid and devoid of a soul.

...devoid of a soul.
?!?!?!?!?

blah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoulblah blah blahy blahy blah blah blahsoul.

gotcha

^^^Yeah, how can you argue with babytalk?

No one said you were ignorant Tahoe.

Maybe you feel insecure about your position?

Maybe you feel you don't really know everything about this, but you can't go back now and admit it?

Maybe, just maybe Zip likes pushing your buttons and I like riding his coat tails cause he's funny as fuck and you are so far gone that you can't even argue his points?

None of that matters to me.

I'm having a great time.

^ Me too. I'm loving it.

My wifes friend read your post and she thinks you are dumbass, but not that you care.

LMAO - you're hilarious.

Un-original, but hilarious.

^

Conservatives think Libs are hilarious and Libs think Conservatives are hilarious. Imagine that.

She voted for that dumb bastard thats in office, but can't accept sheep like you, that are out in Pluto, that haven't even mentioned wanting dumbass to release all the docs on 'water over head'. She thinks it will prove her side, dumbasses side, your side. But y'all are so far gone you haven't even mentioned it.

LMAO @ you, homes.

As far as the specific documents in question, they're the subject of two pending lawsuits and that's why the CIA hasn't declassified them. Obama could override the executive order involved and declassify, but then he would be messing up those lawsuits (which involve detainees and may be in the public interest to resolve without further hijinks). Levin and Feingold have seen the documents and state that they don't say what Cheney says they do. Should Obama fuck pending lawsuits to publicly debunk Cheney's assertions?

http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/0509/CIA_rejects_Cheney_declassification_request.html

Obama is actually using this lawsuit for cover to NOT release the docs.

He's a smart dumbass.

So you're suggesting that Obama somehow engineered these Lawsuits long ago as cover just in case he one day needed to avoid releasing these documents???

Um, I don't care who you guys elected into office, because I believe your President is a puppet.

He'll do what he's told to do.

But you keep on posting, T.

I enjoy reading it.

[smilie=rolleyes.gi: See, that's the problem with you liberals. You're so damn gullable, you'll believe any damn thing you're told. Dude, everyone knows Obama can go back in time. That's how he gave the secrets of the atom to the Soviets and poisoned all the measles shots with autism juice.

Um, I don't care who you guys elected into office, because I believe your President is a puppet.

He'll do what he's told to do.
At this juncture, it should be noted that Pharaoh's homeland is responsible for such puppeteering acts as Puppetry of the Penis and Rupert Murdoch, both of which tie into the topic of this thread nicely...

At this juncture, it should be noted that Pharaoh's homeland is responsible for such puppeteering acts as Puppetry of the Penis and Rupert Murdoch, both of which tie into the topic of this thread nicely...

It's all fun and games until his goverment adds wtfdetroit to their nannystate internet filter. [smilie=usa.gif]

He's a smart dumbass.

Tahoe is the only poster I know that consistently contradicts himself, even within the same post. I used to have another one like that in my sig until he misquoted it in an attempt to bury his contradiction.

I'm not well versed on the torture topic, but this thread is crazy. It seems like Mxy and Zip bring up some valid discussion topics and Tahoe's responses (the ones that aren't just littered with insults) are all generalizations and stereotypes. It would be nice to read a good discussion of the issues, but I guess we'll just read this for entertainment instead.

Tahoe is the only poster I know that consistently contradicts himself, even within the same post. I used to have another one like that in my sig until he misquoted it in an attempt to bury his contradiction.

I'm not well versed on the torture topic, but this thread is crazy. It seems like Mxy and Zip bring up some valid discussion topics and Tahoe's responses (the ones that aren't just littered with insults) are all generalizations and stereotypes. It would be nice to read a good discussion of the issues, but I guess we'll just read this for entertainment instead.


Wow, libs agreeing with Libs. Imagine that.

He's an educated idiot, thats all.

So you're suggesting that Obama somehow engineered these Lawsuits long ago as cover just in case he one day needed to avoid releasing these documents???

Just conveniently hiding behind it. Jesus, can y'all read.

Tahoe is the only poster I know that consistently contradicts himself, even within the same post. I used to have another one like that in my sig until he misquoted it in an attempt to bury his contradiction.

I'm not well versed on the torture topic, but this thread is crazy. It seems like Mxy and Zip bring up some valid discussion topics and Tahoe's responses (the ones that aren't just littered with insults) are all generalizations and stereotypes. It would be nice to read a good discussion of the issues, but I guess we'll just read this for entertainment instead.

You can shove that 'littered with insults' up your ass.

You can shove that 'littered with insults' up my ass ass soon as I pull George Bush's cock out of there.

I'm not sure how "convenient" it is, or for whom.

It might be the case that it's quite convenient that Cheney points to documents that he should know can't be declassified. Or it might be coincidence. It's neat how Cheney knows exactly which documents they are... almost as if he were preparing for this. Hmmm...

Preparing for this? He's just asking for docs to be released that show the results of the eits. Of course he would know what situations provided info.

Zip, go jerk off to you neighbor.

I'm not well versed on the torture topic, but this thread is crazy. It seems like Mxy and Zip bring up some valid discussion topics and Tahoe's responses (the ones that aren't just littered with insults) are all generalizations and stereotypes. It would be nice to read a good discussion of the issues, but I guess we'll just read this for entertainment instead.

It's more fun than watching Stone Cold Steve Austin put a gun to Vince McMahon's head (which made Vince "pee" on TV)

The libs not responding to the topic 'is' hilarious.

The libs not responding to the topic 'is' hilarious.

You mean the way you responded to the claims by interrogators that torture doesn't work?

Anybody can say anything. I've seen former CIA guys say it works. Who do you believe?

Thats why Mr T has to release the results.

What are y'all so afraid of the results?

I know, even if it proves it works, y'all will still be against it. And thats ok. Just know you are a minority.

You mean the way you responded to the claims by interrogators that torture doesn't work?

Seriously, y'all are incredible. Just attack me and not respond to the topic.

For all your smartz, Gee, you sure like to duck the issue.

You are hilarious.

Anybody can say anything. I've seen former CIA guys say it works. Who do you believe?

Thats why Mr T has to release the results.

What are y'all so afraid of the results?

I know, even if it proves it works, y'all will still be against it. And thats ok. Just know you are a minority.

Former CIA guys say torture works? OK! You finally sold me! WHO KNEW?
Now, if only someone, like, say, Rummy, would come out and tell us that killing 250,000 innocent Iraqis and displacing about 3 million more will make them love America and want to have our kind of government and society, I'll be completely sold! Well, I kind of would like it if some guy who is a higher up in Blackwater or something would explain to us how blowing Afghanistan to shit and now doing nothing but turning that country back over to the Taliban, Opium cartels, Al-Qaeda, and tribal warlords is going to go a LONG way toward promoting stability in Pakistan and India and secure their nuclear arsenals as well as building new and lasting relationships in that region. Once I know all that, I'm on board, Tahoe!

^ But you trust what the interrogators say...

Keep posting buddy.

Y'all are hilarious.

^ But you trust what the interrogators say...

Keep posting buddy.

Y'all are hilarious.

http://www.fineartprintsondemand.com/artists/hals/daniel_van_aken_playing_the_violin-400.jpg

Terror can sometimes be effective.
Does that make it right?
Does that make it a generally productive exercise?

Direct physical torture can sometimes be effective.
Does that make it right?
Does that make it a generally productive exercise?

Fuck this "he said, she said" bullshit. I don't think we need Cheney's bullshit memos (which may have been written as a CYA move -- he's made provably false statements about this in the recent past) to "present the other side".

It's not like Gitmo was the only time that torture's happened for the stated purpose of extracting information. We have millenia of torture history. Some of the particulars are relatively newish (e.g. drugs, sensory deprivation), but waterboarding has been around since the Spanish Inquisition. You don't have to be a member of the illuminati spooking class to get a sense of torture's effectiveness and limitations... the truth really IS out there. Read history on the matter. Read some behavioral science texts. There's a fair bit of clinical research... heck, our tax dollars even paid for some of it.

He isn't asking for his memos, iirc, he's asking for the CIA records on pouring a lil water over their heads.

He isn't asking for his memos, iirc, he's asking for the CIA records on pouring a lil water over their heads.

If you expect people to take your "points" seriously, you should try taking the torture seriously. Whether or not you support waterboarding or torture in general...I think you need to first treat waterboarding as what it is and stop relating it to taking a shower basically. Making light of it like that pretty much destroys any points you might have.

Torture to me is not feeding prisoners for weeks, working them nearly to death, beatings, dislocating shoulders...you know the stuff we faced in Viet Nam (or when Clinton had detainees sent to other countries for cough cough, interrogations).

Pouring water over their heads with 2 doctors present isn't torture to me. It's an interrogation technique. Deal with it.

For all your smartz, Gee, you sure like to duck the issue.

For me the issue is that the US shouldn't be torturing folks. Not here, not in gitmo, not in afghanistan or iraq, not through proxies using extraordinary rendition and not on a plane or a train with or without green eggs. With maybe a side dish over whether a particular technique constitutes torture or not.

This or that document being released is a sideshow for others to jawbone over.

For me the issue is that the US shouldn't be torturing folks. Not here, not in gitmo, not in afghanistan or iraq, not through proxies using extraordinary rendition and not on a plane or a train with or without green eggs. With maybe a side dish over whether a particular technique constitutes torture or not.

This or that document being released is a sideshow for others to jawbone over.

I can respect that.

I think your way of doing things will cost lives and thats why I oppose it. You think my way costs lives. I get that.

I can respect that.

I think your way of doing things will cost lives and thats why I oppose it. You think my way costs lives. I get that.

Sort of. I don't view it as a simple question of lives lost where the best course is the one with the fewest casualties. I hold the view, stated often in this thread by myself and others that torture threatens to undermine our ideals... the very "way of life" the terrorists want to attack. If lives are risked to protect that, it's a lot more worthy than some of the things we've spent blood and treasure on in our history.

I view libs as very idealistic and not willing to face the shit people that are out there...in this country(today in DC) and around the world. We can't play nice with some of the shit that is on the face of this earth, imo.

And I feel you are appeasing the terrorists cuz that is the 'way of life' the terrorists want to attack. They fuckin kill...fuckin murder innocent women and children in Iraq and Afghanistan before we were there. Y'all just seeem to want to look the other way, imo. But US is the bad guy. fundamental differences in belief systems.

I view libs as very idealistic and not willing to face the shit people that are out there...in this country(today in DC) and around the world. We can't play nice with some of the shit that is on the face of this earth, imo.


I view conservatives as very fearful of the shit people out there. So fearful that they'd cash in every principle we have to buy a little (perceived) safety.


And I feel you are appeasing the terrorists cuz that is the 'way of life' the terrorists want to attack.

Not torturing prisoners is appeasement? Really? I mean, really?


They fuckin kill...fuckin murder innocent women and children in Iraq and Afghanistan before we were there. Y'all just seeem to want to look the other way, imo.

I say "we shouldn't torture" and you echo back "look the other way" like we're speaking two different languages. One doesn't follow the other. That's not imo, in point of fact no one has advocated "look the other way." No one.


But US is the bad guy. fundamental differences in belief systems.

Bad guys do bad things. Torture is what the bad guys do. You're right, fundamental differences in belief.