The Pistons have very clearly been interested in Chris Bosh and the Raptors have also shown interest in Tayshaun Prince, according to a report in the Detroit News.

While reporter Chris McCosky clearly writes that nobody is saying a deal centered around these two players will happen, he does write that Prince is no longer untouchable.

:mccosky:

There was a time when I would have said no way, but Joe needs to flush this toilet.

I could see us trading Rip or Tay, but not both. Rip > Tay

We need a huge change here.

If they want Prince for Bosh I do that in a heartbeat.

I'm sure it would be pretty easy to find another SF with our cap space (via trade or signing).

I'm sure almost every team in the league is interested in Prince for the right price. McCosky didn't come up with anything here - he just listed the team that has the player that fans want the most. There's no way Bosh is being traded to the Pistons, especially not just for Prince.

I wish, but it's not going to happen.

It wouldn't be just prince, it would be Prince and 6 million dollars.

What about Tay and Amir for Bosh and Graham? Graham would either start or backup out pick at #15.

We could still move Max for a better big off a cap strapped team too. Dyess, Graham and Bynum become the bench (with #15 starting at SF).

I'm sure almost every team in the league is interested in Prince for the right price. McCosky didn't come up with anything here - he just listed the team that has the player that fans want the most. There's no way Bosh is being traded to the Pistons, especially not just for Prince.

I wish, but it's not going to happen.

Yeah, I don't know what they'd want to do that, but I would. I guess if the money is pressing enough of an issue. The thing is that Toronto isn't in a bad situation but that is losing Marion, Parker and Garbajosa off the books. Who knows what they'll do there. Their fear might be letting them all walk and then see Bosh leave too.

What about Tay and Amir for Bosh and Graham? Graham would either start or backup out pick at #15.

We could still move Max for a better big off a cap strapped team too. Dyess, Graham and Bynum become the bench (with #15 starting at SF).

So Max + cap space = someone's bad contract. #15 starts at SF (that worries me) RIp, Stuck, Bosh.......worth a shot.

Well, you can start Graham there until #15 is ready. It really depends on the player. If you get someone who is NBA ready but not a high ceiling (like Battier was), he can start. If the player is not ready to start then he comes off the bench.

Where is Marion going in all this, and at what price?

DO IT! we can easily fill the SF spot with some freeagents like Marvin, Childress, Ariza or per trade...but for a deal like Tay/amir for Bosh to happen, Bosh has to decline an extension first and basically tell them he will leave in '10...

I'm pretty sure that Childress is an RFA.

I'm very sure I don't want Ariza's lack of bball IQ.

If we are going to beat Boston or Cleveland, we NEED someone that can defend the 3 at least decently. As good as TP has been, he is just aweful against Lebron (as are most players) and Pierce (albeit less so). Both players just have a physical skill set that is too much for him. I petition for Caron Butler. He is physical and stong, and a great defender as well. I think Toronto would listen to Tayshaun, our first and six mill in cap room for Bosh if he doesn't extend with them. I would definitely use the rest of the cap room and assets we have to get Butler, Childress, or another good player.

Gotta love the number of hoops that we are jumping through to convince ourselves that a Tay for Bosh deal is even remotely realistic.

Read the original article. There is not even a sniff of indication that this has any sense of reality. Toronto likes Prince. Maybe (there wasn't even anything other than McCosky's word there). That's it.

Well guess what.

Detroit likes Lebron James. and Cleveland likes Arron Afflalo.

MAYBE WE CAN DEAL AFFLALO AND CAPSPACE FOR LEBRON!!!

Would you guys take Marion in a S&T for Tay?

Would you guys take Marion in a S&T for Tay?
No.

Would you guys take Marion in a S&T for Tay?

Not for what Marion makes now. What kind of money is Marion signing for in this scenario?

Not for what Marion makes now. What kind of money is Marion signing for in this scenario?


Better not make any more than Tay.....better not make what Tay makes frankly.....and that won't work.

Looking at past games, it's not like Butler defends against LeBron any better than Tayshaun does, but he manages to maintain an offensive game as a #2/#3 option better than Tayshaun does as a #3/#4 option. Of course, Butler is more turnover-prone and isn't as durable as Tayshaun...

$10m is probably what Marion would want/get, which is about what Tay gets IIRC.

I'm thinking that Marion would do a better job on LeBron/Pierce than Tay does.

Last I heard was Calangelo was going to ride out Bosh until the end of his deal (while offering an extension).... they are definately going to explore S&T offers for Marion (prolly the interest in Tay).

Marion can defend well when given the call, but can't do so and be any sort of big-deal offense guy (and indeed, that's not his role in any event). I'm still not sure what's going on in his head since leaving Phoenix. I suspect he'll get less money than he thinks he should get and will sulk. I'd really want to know who our next coach would be before we try for Marion. In fact, I have to believe that any big free agents would want to know who our next coach is.

Marion's not getting $10M a season in this economy.

yeah it would take WAY more than tay and amir to get bosh. toronto would laugh us back across the border with that proposal.

as for marion.....he strikes me as the type of guy joe would pursue, for better or worse. i'm not a huge advocate of pursuing him- although i think he's a definite improvement over what we've got going on right now- but i just have a feeling that he'll be a piston come august.

Would a S&T with Sheed help?

Sheed, Tay, Amir, 1st for Marion and Bosh? I'd do that.

You might as well forget about getting both Marion and Bosh. That ain't gonna happen. But if they want Tayshaun and something else (that isn't another starter) in exchange for Bosh, you gotta be out of your mind not to go for that deal.

They're not keeping Marion. He'd simply be a way for them to get more back for Bosh. It's a sign-and-trade for him, and he's not going to stay in Toronto. They'd essentially be trading Bosh for Tay, Amir, Sheed, and a pick. The big question is would they want to take on that much salary and would Sheed be willing to go to Toronto? He'd have to be in on the sign-and-trade and I don't feel like that's somewhere they'd want to go. Plus, I don't know why Toronto would want Sheed, a floating big man that doesn't like the paint, if they're going to get rid of Bosh and just have Bargnani, a floating big man.

I don't see why we would offer anything for Marion. He's a UFA and we have enough cap space to sign him outright and don't have to worry about a S&T. Not many teams are looking to spend big money.

I didn't even think about him being a UFA. Why would we need to do a sign-and-trade? That's stupid. Great point Mick.

Sheed is a UFA as well, right?

Sheed would have to want to go to Toronto since he is an UFA.

Don't see that happening.

No, he'll sign with a contender that has a post player so he can float. His best bet would be in Dallas or SA. Heck, he'd be better off going back to Philly and playing next to Brand.

I actually think it would be amazing to see a motivated Sheed in SA. That would be good old fashioned fundamental basketball, with some stupid fucker flopping all over the place mixed in.

Sheed playing "the right way" and Duncan playing typical fundamental Duncan basketball side by side? I'd watch.
Even if the Spurs are DONE.

The reason you would do a S&T for Marion is so you could use your cap space on someone else.

If that is a desirable thing to do, that is.

And so it begins...

PBN

A few league sources whom I respect have said that the Hornets may try to take advantage of Detroit's possible housecleaning this off-season, with their eyes focused on Richard Hamilton or Tayshaun Prince (or both). West could be part of one of those deals, but it's all speculation at this point.
http://probasketballnews.com/story/?storyid=397

I's take West for Tay.

I wonder how much PG shit West has picked up fro Paul.

Maybe he can teach Stuckey and Bynum a thing or 2?

That's the scary part... we don't have any Paul types dropping dimes.
How much is West & Chandlers success related to Paul's skilz?

That's the scary part... we don't have any Paul types dropping dimes.
How much is West & Chandlers success related to Paul's skilz?

Don't know. Kmart is making West look average in this series. However, Lebron is making Tay look below average too.

How much is Chandler being extremely limited right now hurting West? How much is the fact that Paul is getting schooled defensively by Dantay Jones effecting West's play? that whole team is out of sync right now.

Either way, it's worth the risk because he's a big man that can play and they are harder to find than SF's.

That's the scary part... we don't have any Paul types dropping dimes.
How much is West & Chandlers success related to Paul's skilz?
Chandler put up the same per-minute #s in Chicago.

The biggest difference is that he's less foul-prone.

I don't attribute that to Chris Paul.

David West is an outstanding pick and roll big man. Maybe the best PF in the NBA at it.

A great PG is going to take advantage of that, but Paul didn't make him any more than Stockton made malone.

Chandler's a different story.

If you can pry Amare away and pair him with west....we're very close to being contenders again.

all o, no d? but it would be the most talented frontcourt in the east, 45+ points from your starting bigman would be pretty cool....

You'd need to stock with wing positions with defenders to compensate, for sure.

I still like the idea of snagging Boozer and trading Tayshaun for an upgrade at the 3, then using the remaining money to grab a super-sub, regardless of position. That might be enough to convince Dice to stay.

Speaking of, what do you do if Dice has no interest in returning? Then you essentially have no starting-calibre big men. Do you use all of the cap space on two bigs (Boozer, Lee, trade for Bosh, Chandler, Amare?) or keep Kwame Brown? There are so many options for this off-season. It's much more exciting than any other in the last 7 years.

And so it begins...

PBN

http://probasketballnews.com/story/?storyid=397

Rip or Tayshaun and Kwame for Chandler and Butler??? Chandler would be a good big man to pair with someone like Boozer, Millsap, or Lee, especially if we re-sign Dice.

I actually think that's too rich from a Pistons perspective.

N.O. has no leverage to expect talent like Rip or Tay in return, they need to shed payroll dollars, talent be damned.

Joe D = king

I really don't want to overpay for Boozer because of his injuries. I don't think that Chandler is worth his salary either. What we need are to pry stars away from teams with cap trouble or get free agents at a bargain. Using our cap for overpaid or damaged players is pointless.

On a sad note, for as bad as the Pistons were I really doubt that Dice returns. After game 4 he really made it sound like his last game as a Piston. That's yet another reason why I'm pissed at Joe.

Ok, micknugget it's time for you to throw out some names.

You don't want Boozer, Chandler, overpaid or damaged players.

You want Joe to pry stars away from cap strapped teams or get bargain free agents.

Like who?

Name names

Since the Hornets are in such a shitty cap situation, would they consider Butler(or posey or peja or any other 3pt shooter they have) West and Chandler for hamilton kwame and amir?

Peja's contract is horrible, and unless we moves Tay, where is he going to play?

He's best ball is behind him, too.

Ok, micknugget it's time for you to throw out some names.

You don't want Boozer, Chandler, overpaid or damaged players.

You want Joe to pry stars away from cap strapped teams or get bargain free agents.

Like who?

Name names

Charlie V (6-7mil)
Jefferson (2 yrs. left -if Prince is traded)
Wilcox (on the cheap - 3 mil)
Marion (8-9 mil - if Prince is traded)
Sessions
Gordon (if Rip goes)
Haywood (1 yr remaining)
B. Miller (1 yr remaining - big in playoffs)
David Lee (8-9 mil)
Bibby (on the cheap 4-6 mil. or 1 yr to tutor Stuckey)
M. Williams (restricted but.....)
Biedrins (if GS gets in cap trouble)
Amare (who knows)
Bosh (of course)
Kidd (1 yr to tutor Stuckey)

I'm not saying that the above players will be available or sign for cheap but I really don't see a need to overpay someone like Boozer or pick up an overrated Chandler.

Then again, if Curry is still the coach, why bother with any of it.

every player listed their is either overpaid or injury prone. In some cases, both.

Pistons may pursue David West

by A. Sherrod Blakely
Wednesday April 29, 2009, 1:58 PM

AUBURN HILLS -- The Detroit Pistons will be on the phone with just about every team in the NBA this summer talking trade, but there's one team that seems to have what Detroit wants - star talent that they're willing to part with.

That team would be the New Orleans Hornets, who are doing all they can shed as much payroll as they can.

They tried their best to dump Tyson Chandler during the season, something they'll look to do again this summer.

But it appears they may also be willing to listen to overtures for all-star forward David West who is exactly the kind of impact, frontcourt player the Pistons need.

Joe Dumars, Detroit's president of basketball operations, said there were a few teams that have already indicated they're interested in trying to get a deal done this summer.

Chances are pretty good that New Orleans was one of those teams.

As we said earlier, Chandler will also be available. But if the Pistons have a choice of one over the other, they'll take West without hesitation.

West reminds me of a younger version of today's Dice in some ways.

If that makes sense at all.

Yeah, I guess maybe I could see a younger version of the current Dice. West doesn't have the athleticism Dice had back in the day.

You know, this cap space thing is going to be odd to work with when it comes to trade rumors/scenarios for fans.

Typically, when you would see a rumor like this, you could check out salaries and see who matches up and get a pretty good idea who would have to be involved from both sides.

In this situation, the possibilities are endless.

Logically, you know that the Hornets need to shed payroll, meaning that they would want either picks or low-paid, young talent in return.

We have the picks, but could someone like Stuckey be in play here?

I'm judging by how cheaply the Hornets were willing to dump Chandler, we could probably get West for Amir or Max. I don't see him worth a Stuckey as West's D is only avg. at best.

Expanding on that thought...

West ($9m) for Stuckey ($1.8m) saves the Hornets about $7m, and might allow them to pair Stuckey with CP3, and maybe even keep Chandler.

The Pistons could either target a vet PG to either start or relieve Bynum.

That would mean that Rip wouldn't be traded, which is already seeming like a bit of a challenge because of his contract extension.

Interesting stuff.

I'm judging by how cheaply the Hornets were willing to dump Chandler, we could probably get West for Amir or Max. I don't see him worth a Stuckey as West's D is only avg. at best.

I don't think they were dumping Chandler cheaply at all, two expiring deals and Devon Hardin?

Those expiring contracts are like gold, especially to the Hornets.

Anybody want to explain how Max's poison pill status would effect the Pistons' ability to trade him anywhere in this environment if they wanted to?

I remember trying to figure that stuff out when we were talking about Josh Smith last year and it makes my head hurt too much.

#59, either way, they were looking to get cap relief this offseason, something we can offer. I'm sure he meant "cheaply" with regards to the talent of the players offered.

If you guys think that Stuckey is worth much more than a 2x All Star big man that is just entering the prime of his career, then I guess that I'll just have to disagree, as usual.

And at $5m per for the next several years, Max isn't a "cheap" player anymore.

Amir's got an expiring deal that is nearly $4m, which is going to be valuable, for sure.

Anybody want to explain how Max's poison pill status would effect the Pistons' ability to trade him anywhere in this environment if they wanted to?

I remember trying to figure that stuff out when we were talking about Josh Smith last year and it makes my head hurt too much.

I explained this in another thread. Basically his current salary is half his extension for trade purposes. Then when his extension kicks in (someone said June 1), he count's as 5 mil for trades. I don't think it's a big deal really since we have cap space.

If you guys think that Stuckey is worth much more than a 2x All Star big man that is just entering the prime of his career, then I guess that I'll just have to disagree, as usual.

And at $5m per for the next several years, Max isn't a "cheap" player anymore.

Amir's got an expiring deal that is nearly $4m, which is going to be valuable, for sure.

I wouldn't do Stuckey for West either. If we're taking on West we need to be able to add another big man next to him, which means we need to move Tay or RIP in that deal to keep some cap space.

Getting someone to take him for $5m a year for the next 4 years is going to be a big deal in any case, IMO.

Do you know of another team that wants to devote $20m to him?

I wouldn't do Stuckey for West either. If we're taking on West we need to be able to add another big man next to him, which means we need to move Tay or RIP in that deal to keep some cap space.
How do you figure?

If we lose $7m of the ~$18m-$20m of cap space that we have to use, doesn't that leave $11m-$13m to add another big? (minus $ for our draft picks)

Any money that we have over the MLE amount (whatever that ends up being) is going make us a desirable location for free agents.

Getting someone to take him for $5m a year for the next 4 years is going to be a big deal in any case, IMO.

Do you know of another team that wants to devote $20m to him?
You're talking about moving Max, right?

I think you can find a few teams, but not a whole lot. Their best bet is saving someone money immediately. Take on a 10 mil a year deal for a couple years only giving back Max. So they get 5 mil in savings for a couple years and avoid taxes. That's Joe's best bet with Max.

How do you figure?

If we lose $7m of the ~$18m-$20m of cap space that we have to use, doesn't that leave $11m-$13m to add another big? (minus $ for our draft picks)

Any money that we have over the MLE amount (whatever that ends up being) is going make us a desirable location for free agents.
yes, that leaves 11-13 mil to get another big (via trade or outright signing). But, if you move Stuckey you now lack a starting PG. Filling that spot takes away the money you can spend on a big man. If you trade for the big (say Tay and Amir for Bosh), then you have to sign a SF as well. Plus you don't know what Dice might make. I'd rather have 15+ mil after bringing in one big contract so we can still make a couple more moves. If you take on a lot of salary in one move you limit the rest of the moves you can make.

There are starting PGs in the league that aren't as good as Bynum, imo. Damn, now I'm going to have to name names.

And you might be able to simply replace Stuckey with Lawson, but a trade for some elite bigs might require that pick.

Basically he needs to keep as flexible as possible until he knows he has his two big men of the future (whether it's two now, or one and Bosh next year).

There are starting PGs in the league that aren't as good as Bynum, imo. Damn, now I'm going to have to name names.
Probably, but I'd be happier with Bynum as the change of pace guard off the bench. he'd get abused by a lot of starting PG's on defense. And being better than some starting PG's doesn't mean anything. he has to be good enough to win a ring with. So he has to be able to match up with Rondo, Mo Williams, Farmar, etc.

We aren't going to be able to fix everything this offseason. I'd like to see if he will still get better. Give him some time. He improved quite a bit from the begining of the year. If it continues, he's quite a find.

I want to keep Stuckey too. But if you get a young all star caliber center for him you have to do it I think. outside that, I'm not moving him (because we're not getting Kobe, Lebron or anyone like that for him either).

umichjenks,

I moved your trade idea to the "Fun with trade ideas" subforum so it wouldn't get buried in here.

http://wtfdetroit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14959

FTPOTA

lol

Hornets, Pistons win in Chris Paul trade

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090503/COL08/905030451&s=d&page=2#pluckcomments

lmao

That is the gold standard of all dumbass articles.

yeah that writer should have been fired the moment he typed that assinine joke of an article.

how about this one- james is a FA after next year and cleveland could also save a lot of money by trading lebron. how about we trade for him too? the cavs would save a lot of money over the longterm by not having to pay him all the money he will demand! *rolls eyes*

Jesus wtf is Drew Sharp smoking. Paul is a franchise player. The only way they are getting rid of him is if he demands a trade.

Nice to know there rational minds on this site.... Chris Paul...pffft

Aside from the idea of New Orleans dumping Chris Paul being ridiculous to start with, I don't see where his premise of a trade providing financial relief for the Hornets holds water even in Drew Sharp's fantasy world. The salary they'd have to take back would still be fairly close to Chris Paul's, leaving them with an pile of luxury tax and an empty arena for 41 nights.

not true. they could trade him to detroit for nothing but a draft pick. Salary regulations do not apply if you have more cap room than the salary coming in.

They could save New Orleans $93 million by taking Paul and Chandler's contracts, and they'd only have to give up Amir and Kwame's paltry 8 mil in expirings to make up the difference.

well, they won't move Paul, period. If money is/was a problem they'd move Chandler for whatever they could get (even if it's just a 2nd rounder). Possibly West, but only if they couldn't move Chandler. I bet they'd like to move Mo Pete too (WTF happened to him?).

West and Mo Pete for Max and RIP?

Chandler is unmovable by himself. OKC had him for free last year and demanded a refund.

The only guy that's going anywhere is David West, and there's no way they would want anything aside from draft picks for him and maybe amir johnson. It would be a pure salary dump.

well, Mo Pete would be a salary dump (he has 2 years left).

You can put Amir in there instead of Max. We could take Daniels or Butler off their hands too (expire next year).

What about West/Butler/Daniels for Amir/RIP?

We get a legit big and a couple decent backups that expire. it saves them 4.6 mil next year and 20 mil the following year. They also get a legit scorer so they don't fall off the map.

4.6 mil will likely not get them under the luxury tax.

They can throw in Julian Wright then. I'm not taking any more salary off them unless they are promising players.

loves me some julian wright. unfortunately so do the hornets though......

MUSTAFA!!


Mustafa (Warren, Mich.): Is it likely the Pistons will make a trade at the draft this year – maybe Amir and Tayshaun or Rip for Chris Bosh or Amare Stoudemire? Then they would still have the money to go after Ben Gordon or Hedo Turkoglu. This sounds like a pretty good team to me. What do you think?

Langlois: Joe Dumars is going to have to be careful about how he sequences his moves this summer. It would be best to sign his free agents first and then make his trades, because of the way the salary cap works. If he signs his free agents, he can spend up to the cap – the Pistons figure to have about $17 million or so in cap space, given the likelihood of the salary cap ticking down and the necessary cap holds for their first-round pick and for the minimum salaries they’ll have to assume once renouncing their own free agents. (If a team doesn’t have 12 players under contract, the NBA puts a “cap hold” of the NBA minimum, roughly $400,000, on however many empty roster spots less than 12 they have open.) If they were to make their trades first, any additional money they take on as a result of the trade – Bosh is due to make about $15.5 million next year, Prince and Johnson combined about $14 million – would reduce the amount of money they would have available for free agents by that figure. So any trade they execute on draft day, I’m guessing, would be a trade that doesn’t commit them to any additional money next season.


Julius (Lansing, Mich.): I haven’t heard much talk about the possibilities of acquiring Caron Butler or Andrew Bogut. Do you think both players are on the radar?

Langlois: I don’t think they see either as reasonable gets. Milwaukee is unquestionably under some financial distress, but the Bucks would no doubt first try to get rid of Richard Jefferson or Michael Redd and build around Bogut. Washington is well into the luxury tax, but owner Abe Pollin has said he’s willing to pay it. If that’s the case, there’s no way they’ll be letting go of Butler. He’s highly productive relative to his salary.


This one's awesome. Happy time!


Jose (Lansing, Mich.): What could be a possible scenario in your mind that would enable us to get Boozer, Bosh and Gordon on our team to go along with Stuckey?

Langlois: It would require at least one trade, Jose. Pretty tough to sign Boozer and Gordon both as free agents, as I see it now, because they just aren’t going to have as much cap space as had been projected. If we’re using $17 million as the figure, that would require Boozer to start at about $10 million and Gordon at about $7 million. I don’t think that would get it done for either one. If they trade for both Boozer and Bosh, it’s pretty certain that one trade would have to involve Hamilton and the other Prince. Then the Pistons could sign Gordon to replace Hamilton and still have enough money left over to sign a small forward to replace Prince. Of the potential free agents, the one that makes the most sense to replace Prince would be Hedo Turkoglu, if he opts out, as expected.

I'd be happy with Stuckey/Gordon/Hedo/Boozer/Bosh no matter who on the roster it takes to get them.

he's not on the roster, but what if a team wanted arnie kander? deal or no deal?

Nope. You don't trade a god.

Whoever we get back better give a slick hummer.

:kennythejet:

Pargo was out here talking to Joe D today...I don't see news on it though.


EDIT: Probably because it's Pargo.

I HAVE PARGOMANIA

http://wtfdetroit.com/forums/showpost.php?p=94744&postcount=107
http://wtfdetroit.com/forums/showpost.php?p=130089&postcount=5
http://wtfdetroit.com/forums/showpost.php?p=246382&postcount=49

wait..which Pargo was Joe visiting with?

Most likely Jeremy Pargo. I got a text from one of my moles.

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/5752/robparker.jpg

I assume that he is one of the draft eligible guys that they are bringing in this week for workouts.

Anybody got a full list?

http://hoopshype.com/workouts.htm

Hoopshype has a list of workouts by team. not sure how accurate it is.

I haven't read this anywhere but here's an idea:

Washington trade #5 and Haywood for our best Second Round Pick.

It clears $8 million in payroll for the Wizards (and could save them as much as $16 million if they're over the tax!)

I'm sure some people are gonna wonder why Washington couldn't get more for that pick and an expiring and the answer is they probably could.

But how desperate are they to cut costs?

lol- that would be nice. but even in this draft and even if they're real desperate to dump salary, i don't see them trading assets like that in return for a high 2nd rounder.

Maybe our first and a high second rounder? They still get a 1st round pick, but the salary on it is going to be millions lower and they don't have to commit anything to the 2nd rounder. I still feel like they'd want us to take on a different crappy salary though since Haywood would be their starter and they've got other guys making similar money (Etan Thomas?). If they're giving us the #5 pick, they're going to want us taking something they DON'T want, the lesser of two guys making similar money at the same position.

Wait a minute - I thought the whole rumour surrounding Washington was that if they didn't get a Top 2 pick that they would trade it?

Are you guys assuming that the rumour meant in a deal for a big time player? With all the talk of them being over the tax I thought the idea was that they would give up the pick in order to have some team take on salary.

I'll look at their contracts and find someone they'd want us to take other than Haywood and see what I find.

But for now, here is a New Orleans deal (been mentioned before but I couldn't find it):

We trade Richard Hamilton and Amir Johnson
We get David West, Morris Peterson and Antonio Daniels.

Daniels would expire next off-season. Peterson expires the off-season after that.

New Orleans saves some money on this deal, too. They dish out $21,654,740 and only take back $14,479,167 so that's a big saving.

So, in that deal we're using approx $7 million in cap space - but we got our impact big man! (Also got a back-up for Tayshaun!)

Back to Washington:

We could take back Etan Thomas if he doesn't opt out (why would he) but he'd be an expiring so maybe the Wizards would like to keep him...

Darius Songaila is another option. He makes just over $4 million and would expire when Mo Pete does.

Would the Wizards part with their pick (with a salary of $3 mil) to get us to take Songaila? That's the big question.

I'll say they would, because it saves them over $7 million in payroll and a further $7 million in taxes! Let's face it - the #5 pick is not gonna get them a franchise player. A quality starter? I hope so.

So, we took $7 million from WAS in a trade and another $7 million from NO in a trade. That leaves us with just $4 million to spend - Hello Birdman.

Roster:

C: Birdman/Kwame/Songaila
F: West/Maxiell
F: Prince/Peterson/#15 (Johnson)
G: Harden or DeRozan (#5)/Afflalo/Daniels
G: Stuckey/Bynum

plus 2 second round picks

A package including some combination of Kwame and Songaila, Johnson or Peterson, AA or Daniels, the 2 second round picks and a future first could be laid out for Toronto and Phoenix in our bid for Bosh or Amare.

So, we have a lot to offer for Bosh or Amare and if those teams don't wanna deal we still have a pretty good team IMO, with youth everywhere.

I think if they trade Bosh, they're going to ask for a little more in return, like Tayshaun maybe since the rumor was they were interested in him. Unless they're absolutely sure they're not getting him resigned and no one makes a better offer than Kwame's expiring, Johnson's potential, another expiring, and a handful of picks.......

When did Songaila become a C?

IMO, dropping to #5 really hurt them. They might need to package something along with the pick to make it worth Joe's while.

Heck, they could wind up having to forgo the pick and trade nick young.

Forgo the pick and trade Nick Young? Explain.

And why would they have to package something to make it worth Joe's while? He's getting the #5 pick for the price of taking on a contract. The very most I could see them packaging to make it "worth Joe's while" would be Brendan Haywood instead of some other crappy contract (Mike James, Darius Songaila, Etan Thomas), because he'd still clear some cap space for them and he'd be an asset to us, unlike the others.

I wouldn't mind Songaila if he is healthy.

He's a tough guy.

Not saying that's enough, but he's got chutzpah.

Fixed


I wouldn't mind Songaila if he is healthy and we didn't have a roster full of PFs already.

We may not have Dice, we won't have Sheed and Amir's probably gone, too.

Who is left?

He's on a list of guys for me that always play well when I watch, then end up bouncing around/out of the league. This includes Bostjan Nachbar, Donyell Marshall, and my buddy Ray who I once saw hit 6 2-point shots in a row in a macker.

I'm not saying I'd seek him out, necessarily, but if you are gonna take a contract in order to get something else, he can at least play a little.

And I have indeed seen him play some center.

PF role players are the easiest position to find. Look at Joe Smith. Those guys are always out there. If his deal was expiring this coming year I would be more apt to consider it, but I'm not tying up the cap for two years on him. Not when we already have a backup PF making 5 mil.

And I have indeed seen him play some center.

That's because he played with fragile Miller. No way he plays center barring injuries or foul trouble requiring it.

Forgo the pick and trade Nick Young? Explain.

And why would they have to package something to make it worth Joe's while? He's getting the #5 pick for the price of taking on a contract. The very most I could see them packaging to make it "worth Joe's while" would be Brendan Haywood instead of some other crappy contract (Mike James, Darius Songaila, Etan Thomas), because he'd still clear some cap space for them and he'd be an asset to us, unlike the others.


Because the Price of taking on those contracts might not be worth the 5th pick in THIS year's draft, where anything after #4 is a crapshoot.

If I'm Joe, I ply hardball and hold out for the #5 and Nick Young, maybe offer up tayshaun in return.

Wait, we just went from trading them crap, like some 2nd round picks, to giving them Tayshaun for #5 and Nick Young? First off, they'd be taking on a whole lot more salary than they're giving up if they make that trade, making it not possible with the cap.

Second, why would you trade Tayshaun for a "crapshoot" pick and Nick Young, who as far as I can tell hasn't done a whole lot? We're talking about packaging Tayshaun with Amir and picks to try to get Bosh or Amare but we'd trade him for Young and a "crapshoot"? That just doesn't make sense.

Nick Young is a fairly solid young player.

I'd deal tayshaun for Young, the #5 and Etan or Haywood.

Nick Young is a fairly solid young player.

I'd deal tayshaun for Young, the #5 and Etan or Haywood.


It's the start of a rebuild. What are you going to use the space for now, or do you sit on your hands? I think Marvin is the only guy who makes sense.

ARIZA

yeah but ariza is the classic case of a player who plays really well next to a superstar like kobe but when you bring him to a team like ours, he has a really gay first name.

So once again I lay out a plan and it's met with some very feeble whining and no real complaints...

Since when is Songaila a C? Who cares if he's a PF or a C? Dude arrives here with the #5 pick in the Draft and you're wondering where he'll play? Hopefully he doesn't fucking play. Hopefully we use his soon to be expiring deal in a larger trade for Bosh or Amare.

And Chris, are you really gonna shit on my entire plan because Songaila has an extra year on his deal? Dude - that's fucked up.

Once again no one has posted their own plans for what Joe should do this off-season. Yeah, there are tons of possiblities but get creative.

And AGAIN I note that there were no real complaints about the actual roster and or the idea to chase Bosh or Amare with a large package of expiring contracts and young talent.

Though the idea of offering Prince did enter my mind but then I realised that without Bosh on their roster Prince would just be taking up a ton of cap room that they could use elsewhere.

And Chris, are you really gonna shit on my entire plan because Songaila has an extra year on his deal? Dude - that's fucked up.

Once again no one has posted their own plans for what Joe should do this off-season. Yeah, there are tons of possiblities but get creative.


i never shit on your deal. Someone asked if he was a center and I said no. I would take on his shit contract to get West, Bosh and #5 (with all your trades). I simply said I would try and get Haywood. That's all.

The only problem I have with your deals is that we probably only make a couple deals. We're all guilty of making this thing more complicated than it probably will be (I do this a lot). I think he'll shake things up, but when we start doing 3-4 deals how can we expect those last few will go through? It's hard for him to make a deal with the thoughts he'll use what he gets to make another deal.

But if all that happened I would be very happy.

:chad:


A number of GMs continue to insist that the Clippers want to move Baron Davis and might be open to moving the pick to Memphis or Oklahoma City if either is willing to take on Davis' contract as part of the deal. Both teams will have the cap room this summer to make it happen.

Anybody here want Blake Griffin and Baron Davis?

I'd take Davis to get Griffin. Problem is would they really go down to #15? I'm sure they'd be drafting a PG, do they think Lawson will be there?

What about #1/Davis/Kamen for #15/RIP/Max?

We'd lose 5 mil in cap space, plus another few millon on the pick swap after contracts are signed. So, we'd still have about 11 mil to spend.

Who would actually want Davis that we could get involved in a 3 team deal? Would Philly do a S&T where we get Miller and they get Davis?

sign a backup SF and Dice

PG Miller/Bynum
SG Stuckey/AA
SF Tay/FA
PF Griffin/Dice/Amir
C Kamen/Dice/Amir

Would they want Rip if they already have Gordon at SG? I think they'd take Tay instead. They'd better be darn sure they're getting a starting caliber PG at #15 in that deal, otherwise they just shot themselves in the foot because they traded a future star, their starting PG, and their starting C for a starting SF, a role player, and a developmental guy that won't be ready for a few years......

Pharaoh, would we be able to trade Songaila in another deal? If we brought him in with a multiplayer trade, wouldn't we only be able to trade him by himself for the next 6 months or whatever it is if he's not traded within a day? I don't remember exactly how that rule works.

We could do the deal with Tay too. Wouldn't matter. If we did I would try to send RIP to Washington for Butler and either Thomas or Haywood to save them about 7 mil off their cap.

So this would be your plan:

Trade #15/Tay/Max to LAC for #1(Griffin)/Davis/Kamen
Trade Davis to Philly for Miller (Do they have the cap room for this?)
Trade Rip to Wash for Butler/Haywood or Thomas

Giving us:
Miller/Bynum
Stuckey/AA
Butler/FA
Griffin/Amir
Kamen/Haywood or Thomas/Kwame

I don't know if we'd try to pluck Haywood if we've already got Kamen, since both are true Cs. Would you want both of them on the floor at the same time so we could use Haywood as the backup at both big spots? What if we took Songaila instead? Washington would probably be more likely to do that. I'm still not sure why they'd want to trade Butler for Rip, even if it means getting someone like Thomas or Songaila off the books. Butler is a guy you can build that team around, Rip is a great complimentary piece.

And this is all assuming Joe would make Stuckey a full time SG, because if we're getting Baron or Miller and we've still got Bynum, when is Stuckey playing PG?

What about trading Baron to someone for something other than a PG, or maybe for a combo guard that can play point and off the ball like Joe loves? I don't know who, just an idea. I doubt the Bulls would want to sign and trade Gordon or trade Heinrich plus a bad contract for Baron.

If Kwame opts in, we'd be able to use his contract in a trade with that group of big men on the roster. If not, he comes off the books.

KAMAN!!!!!111

On one hand, Baron would satisfy Joe's "need for threes".

On the other hand, so did Chauncey.

And Baron has a much larger contract than the one we got rid of for cap reasons, no?

While we're here in fantasyland, how about a 3 team deal. Golden State apparently still ahs interest in getting Baron back, according to the Detroit News.

Clips trade #1/Baron
Pistons trade #15/Tay
Warriors trade Biedrins/#7/Wright/Crawford

Clips get #7/#15/Wright
Pistons get #1/Crawford/Biedrins
Warriors get Baron/Tay

I don't know if the numbers match up. Probably not. We'd probably have to take on another contract from GS.

Clips shed a ton of salary and get a few picks and a young forward with some serious potential. You could sub Azubuiki for Wright but he makes a bit more.

Pistons get the #1 pick, a big man, and take on some extra salary for their troubles.

Warriors get Baron back (who we all know the coach loves) and Tay (who its rumored they have interest in). Tay can run the floor, push the ball when needed, and actually bring some defense to that team.

Likelihood of this happening - 1 in a billion seems too likely, but damn we'd be good.

Stuckey
Rip
FA
Griffin
Biedrins

Fuck, I'd take Baron if it meant getting Griffin, though. I just don't like our chances to land Bosh or any other big name next offseason.

I feel like if we landed Griffin, we wouldn't be quite as worried about next offseason's big names. You just look for a solid C to pair with him (Haywood? Biedrins) and build around him.

I don't know if we'd try to pluck Haywood if we've already got Kamen, since both are true Cs. Would you want both of them on the floor at the same time so we could use Haywood as the backup at both big spots? What if we took Songaila instead? Washington would probably be more likely to do that. I'm still not sure why they'd want to trade Butler for Rip, even if it means getting someone like Thomas or Songaila off the books. Butler is a guy you can build that team around, Rip is a great complimentary piece.

And this is all assuming Joe would make Stuckey a full time SG, because if we're getting Baron or Miller and we've still got Bynum, when is Stuckey playing PG?

What about trading Baron to someone for something other than a PG, or maybe for a combo guard that can play point and off the ball like Joe loves? I don't know who, just an idea. I doubt the Bulls would want to sign and trade Gordon or trade Heinrich plus a bad contract for Baron.


I doubt the Bulls would want Davis with Rose and Gordon there either. I'd be fine with Songalia back instead of Haywood (since we have Kwame a year anyway).

Like I said, who really wants Davis? Maybe Dallas (Kidd is a FA)? What about sending them Davis/Amir for Howard and Carroll?

PG Stuckey/Bynum
SG Howard/AA
SF Butler/FA
PF Griffin/Dice/Songaila
C Kamen/Dice/Brown

While we're here in fantasyland, how about a 3 team deal. Golden State apparently still ahs interest in getting Baron back, according to the Detroit News.

Clips trade #1/Baron
Pistons trade #15/Tay
Warriors trade Biedrins/#7/Wright/Crawford

Clips get #7/#15/Wright
Pistons get #1/Crawford/Biedrins
Warriors get Baron/Tay

I don't know if the numbers match up. Probably not. We'd probably have to take on another contract from GS.

Clips shed a ton of salary and get a few picks and a young forward with some serious potential. You could sub Azubuiki for Wright but he makes a bit more.

Pistons get the #1 pick, a big man, and take on some extra salary for their troubles.

Warriors get Baron back (who we all know the coach loves) and Tay (who its rumored they have interest in). Tay can run the floor, push the ball when needed, and actually bring some defense to that team.

Likelihood of this happening - 1 in a billion seems too likely, but damn we'd be good.

Stuckey
Rip
FA
Griffin
Biedrins

The salaries would work. We'd be taking on about 15 million after drafting Griffin. we'd probably be best to trade Amir for a SF since signing a SF would mean Dice can't come back.

Also, you left Crawford off your rotation. Would GS do it with RIP in there? I'd rather do that because Crawford can start at SG:

PG Stuckey/Bynum
SG Crawford/Stuckey
SF Tay/AA
PF Griffin/Max
C Biedrings/Dice

Chris:

I posted 3 deals.

The Rip/West deal, The Wizards trade and the signing of Birdman. I don't think that's too many. I think they all make sense for each team and I think that each individual deal is logical and doesn't have a negative impact on the others.

The Bosh/Amare thing is not a deal - it was posted to demonstrate the position we would be in to possibly make a deal at the deadline.

Also, the reason it would be a good idea to take on contracts with 2 seasons left on them is that next off-season we have soon to be expiring contracts to offer Toronto/Phoenix in a sign and trade.

My idea was to better the team NOW while putting us in a position to still be a player in the Bosh/Amare sweepstakes.

Zekyl: Question 85 of Larry Coon's CBA "Guide" answers your question about packaging Songaila in another trade:

[We cannot trade Songaila] For two months after receiving the player in trade or claiming him off waivers, if the player is being traded in combination with other players.

I think you can trade an incoming player immediately though.

Maybe, but that's not the important part.

The important part is netting the #5 pick and having another big that is not a total waste of space. It also helps that should Bosh/Amare become available we have a contract to throw in that Toronto or Phoenix wouldn't turn down.

I'm not gearing my off-season around that possibility though. You can't. You can't sign a swingman in July and hope to trade Tayshaun in Septmeber. What happens if there is no deal done?

That's why I like this team:

C: Birdman/Kwame
F: West/Maxiell/Songaila (at PF lol)
F: Prince/#15/Peterson
G: #5/AA/Daniels
G: Stuckey/Bynum

Daniels used to play PG, so if we need it he's around, too.

Our second rounders could be drafted for as "specialists", maybe 3 point shooters or 1 3 point shooter and 1 banger (other second rounder went to Washington)

That's a pretty good team if Pick #5 is decent. And it's young and athletic.

The fact that we are actually in a position to make up a package for Bosh/Amare is just an added bonus!

BTW, I missed the Davis/#1 thing. For sure I'd take that if Rip is the guy going to the Clippers. Move Stuckey to SG (though Davis is a big fucker too) and then we've still got a lot of cap space to get a C and some role players.

The salaries would work. We'd be taking on about 15 million after drafting Griffin. we'd probably be best to trade Amir for a SF since signing a SF would mean Dice can't come back.

Also, you left Crawford off your rotation. Would GS do it with RIP in there? I'd rather do that because Crawford can start at SG:

PG Stuckey/Bynum
SG Crawford/Stuckey
SF Tay/AA
PF Griffin/Max
C Biedrings/Dice
The reason I put Tay in there was because of one of those "rumored to be interested" things that was floating around. I don't know if Rip would fit their system, he's more of a half court offense guy and they love to push the ball. We've all seen how quickly our fast breaks can die with him pushing it. I'd rather include him than Tay though.

This is in response of Pharaoh saying put your plan out there or STFU...

The pressing needs are for someone to man up on Bron & Pierce (Tay will never get this done)... and an active defensive force inside (that's not a complete liability on offense).

Sign & Trade Sheed 6m each year for two years & our 1st (plus protected future 1st) to Charlotte for Okafor... this is playing on the NC sentiment... it also helps spread the floor for the Cats... they can draft a project like Mullens and get an LB type PG in the 1st round... they currently have two shot blockers in Diop & Ajincs (sp).... it also saves the cats 3M for Bob Johnson' sale.
I don't believe Sheed will hang it up for anything less than 8M... especially if he can join LB in North Carolina.

Trade Afflalo, Jmax & Minny pick to N.O. for West & R. Butler.
This saves the Hornets 8M and effectively takes them out of Luxland.
Butler will be expiring.

Sign Artest for just above the MLE for 4 years....

Offer Dice the remainder of the available space for two years.

C- Okafor, Kwame, Dice
PF- West, Dice, Amir
SF- Artest, Tay, Butler, Sharpe
SG- Rip, Tay, Stuckey
PG- Stuckey, Bynum, Toronto Pick

You had me until Artest.

I really like the Sheed/Okafor S&T angle.

This is in response of Pharaoh saying put your plan out there or STFU...

The pressing needs are for someone to man up on Bron & Pierce (Tay will never get this done)... and an active defensive force inside (that's not a complete liability on offense).

Sign & Trade Sheed 6m each year for two years & our 1st (plus protected future 1st) to Charlotte for Okafor... this is playing on the NC sentiment... it also helps spread the floor for the Cats... they can draft a project like Mullens and get an LB type PG in the 1st round... they currently have two shot blockers in Diop & Ajincs (sp).... it also saves the cats 3M for Bob Johnson' sale.
I don't believe Sheed will hang it up for anything less than 8M... especially if he can join LB in North Carolina.

Trade Afflalo, Jmax & Minny pick to N.O. for West & R. Butler.
This saves the Hornets 8M and effectively takes them out of Luxland.
Butler will be expiring.

Sign Artest for just above the MLE for 4 years....

Offer Dice the remainder of the available space for two years.

C- Okafor, Kwame, Dice
PF- West, Dice, Amir
SF- Artest, Tay, Butler, Sharpe
SG- Rip, Tay, Stuckey
PG- Stuckey, Bynum, Toronto Pick

I don't mind Artest, I guess, but who is the leader on that team? That's what scares me a little bit.

This is impressive though, as you've managed to acquire a lot of talent while keeping Rip and Tay. There is quite a log jam at the 2-3 spot, I think, with trying to play Tay there. I'd be more inclined to package Tay and Rip at this point and try for an elite level SG. Sure, it might not happen, but it'd be worth a try.

I would axe the Artest part and sign a backup big instead. With Max gone, #15 gone, Amir gone (next year) and Dice uncertain...we need another big.

Instead of Artest, go after Bird Man, Bass, Millsaip, Wilcox, Frye as your backup big. With most of those, you could still afford a backup wing player too.

The MLE is going to end up around $5m, so even having as little as ~$6m in cap room left to use can still make you a major player in the market (king).

Free agents will be fighting for that million, theorhetically.

Mercury, your moves won't work (all of them). If we swap Sheed for Okefor and AA/Max for West/Butler...we take on 17.5 mil in salaries. We only have about 18 mil in space. We wouldn't be able to sign anyone.

Our best bet after that would be to try Amir for a backup wing.

PG Stuckey/Bynum
SG RIP/Stuckey
SF Tay/(trade)
PF West/Dice
C Okefor/Brown

Why do you people hate the letter A?

Kaman

Okafor

You tell 'em Gl'enn!

What if we could pull off the Okafor deal, then landed Bosh for Tay/Amir/#15/2nd? This does leave us without a SF though, which could cause a problem. I'm not sure what sort of cap figure this would give us to go find one.

Essentially, we're signing Okafor as our big free agent (since its a S&T), so that's a chunk of our space. The Bosh deal wouldn't eat up cap space because we're trading Tay and Amir's contracts. Would that leave us with enough to get someone like Marvin Williams?

Or to (pipe dream), trade Rip and our other 2nds for Butler from Washington, then grab a combo guard to pair with Stuckey? I'm not really sure why the Wiz do this deal, it wouldn't save them any cap space and we probably wouldn't have the room to take back a contract. Maybe if Kwame opts out, we can do that deal and take back Songaila or Thomas to make it worth their while.

With Bosh and Okafor up front, you could probably get away with playing Rip or AA at SF most of the time.

I'd take Okefor and Bosh with no SF in a hearbeat. At that point you could just have Herrmann stand at the 3 point line all day and be fine. I would assume we'd just use a couple second rounders on SF's and hope we hit the jackpot.

Herrmann is likely headed back overseas, but your point is still valid.

I bet he'd stay to be the starting SF. But yeah, we could find anyone to stand there and chuck threes. Wally and Korver could be had.

Your SF still has to defend someone. Who's guarding the big wings like James, Pierce, Carmelo, Butler, etc.? Just because offensively it wouldn't be a problem doesn't mean you don't still need some defense. At that point you can go after a defensive specialist for the position. Probably no way we'd be able to lure Battier away from the Rockets with what we'd have left on the roster.

Problem: We trade our 1st in the deal for Okafor, then we trade it again in the deal for Bosh (I missed that earlier). Any chance Charlotte does the deal for Okafor without the 1st involved? No way Toronto does the Bosh deal without it.

You could trade a future first somewhere, or a couple 2nds in the Charlotte deal. We'll have to assume both deals can be made.

As we've seen this year, you can let Kobe, Lebron, Pierce, etc score all they want. james is scoring 40 points a game, yet they still lose. Just make sure nobody else drops 20 and you're fine.

I would almost rather trade Rip than Tayshaun in that Bosh deal. Tayshaun seems to have shown he doesn't want to be a dominant scorer, but he can be a fascilitator if needed. Rip and Stuckey don't really fit together if Joe wants to play Stuckey off the ball more because Rip doesnt have a good enough handle. When Bosh or Okafor are drawing an extra defender down low, you can kick it to Tay for the 3 (40% last season) and if his guy closes out on him, he can put the ball on the floor and distribute enough to make something else happen. Again, that assumes we have a coach that knows how to use his players.

What's with the "trade Tay, he can't guard Pierce and LBJ" talk turning into "you can let those guys score all they want" stuff? (Not saying Chris is the one saying to trade him, just a general board sentiment)

I'd rather move RIP than Tay too. RIP seems like his heart is already gone. Tay seems like if you'd find him a decent backup that he'd be more effective in a little less minutes.

My point was simply I'd give up either to be set up front. Given the choice I'd keep Tay though. Stuckey has the size to play SG. RIP doesn't have the size to play SF full time. That means keeping Tay allows us to bring in a SG or PG to replace RIP.

Mercury, your moves won't work (all of them). If we swap Sheed for Okefor and AA/Max for West/Butler...we take on 17.5 mil in salaries. We only have about 18 mil in space. We wouldn't be able to sign anyone.

Our best bet after that would be to try Amir for a backup wing.

PG Stuckey/Bynum
SG RIP/Stuckey
SF Tay/(trade)
PF West/Dice
C Okefor/Brown
You're right... forgot to add Sheed's salary back in.

The latest I've heard we'll have just over 20 mil to spend.
Revised plan:

Detroit S&T Sheed 6M + #15 (1.5M cap hold) + future protected 1st for Okafor ... (saves Charlotte 3M and future tax hit) = -15M cap hit

Jmax + Afflalo +Toronto Pick for David West + Devin Brown (exp) = -4M cap hit

Rip for Battier + Landry = + 1.7 cap advantage

Amir & Minny pick for Mike Conley (or similar) = even cap hit

C- Okafor, Kwame, Plaisted
PF- West, Landry, Battier
SF- Battier, Prince, Sharpe
SG- Prince, Stuckey, D Brown
PG- Stuckey, Bynum, Conley

Langlois is saying roughly $17m if Kwame doesn't opt out.

$21m is he does.

Why do the Amir plus pick for Conley deal (for a 3rd string PG)? I'd rather just have Amir as PF depth.

Ideally I would move Amir (and a pick if needed) for a better backup PF/C. A guy like Wilcox would be nice off the bench.

Otherwise I like your plan.

Why is everyone intent on giving up our firsts and trading for players who aren't worth their salaries? We are rebuilding and we need youth and giving up two firsts to take on Okafor's contract seems like a pretty bad deal. I think that their may be a fire sale on certain players just to dump their salaries and Okafor could be onw of those. Can anyone say that he has a good contract? It's mediocre at best. We are in a rare situation where we hold the cards and teams will be approaching us. I want steals or really good deals. Not mediocre ones. Add to that the fact that we have a few really good trading pieces in Rip and Tay and we should be careful with our deals. Unless we are getting a stud like Bosh or Amare, I don't want to entertain givng up multiple firsts for mediocre players or contracts.

I can't believe this, but I agree with McNugget. We're in the driver's seat here, no one else is taking on salary and 10-15 teams really, really want to cut it. At least one GM is going to be told by his owner "dump salary at all costs", and the guy is gonna scratch his head and call Joe to save his job.

Okafor for two 1st rounders is a steal.... #15 pick in this draft will not come close to a proven young big (2nd pick in a previous draft)... but I'm glad you question the move... maybe Charlotte would consider it.

I can't believe this, but I agree with McNugget. We're in the driver's seat here, no one else is taking on salary and 10-15 teams really, really want to cut it. At least one GM is going to be told by his owner "dump salary at all costs", and the guy is gonna scratch his head and call Joe to save his job.

Welcome to the dark side Hermy!!!

I'd consider West and Okefor for only one starter a steal. Sure, there will be a few teams disparate to clear salary but it's not league wide. This isn't like the NHL when they put in the cap and suddenly teams had to get under it. There are a few teams way over that won't care, and another half dozen that need to cut salary. So while we are in a great position, there will only be a half dozen teams to even take advantage of.

I definitely agree with the fact that we'd be giving up too much for Okafor. Even when they gave him that deal, it was considered overpaying. Defensively, he's very solid. Offensively, he just never developed the way everyone thought he would and they paid him like he did anyway. He's got 4 more years making:
$10,538,938
$11,540,375
$12,541,813
$13,543,250
$14,544,688

Do you want to have a guy with no real offensive game taking up 13-14mil of your cap space for a few years? That's a tough call, because he's a good defender and a great rebounder, which we desperately need. I just question paying that much to a guy with very limited O.

Last season (career):
FT% - 59%
FG% - 56%
PPG - 13.2
RPG - 10.7 - Offensive: 3.4
APG - 0.6
BPG - 1.7
TO - 1.76
Fouls - 3

First, half an assist a game says the offense doesn't go through him very often, I'd say. An A/T ration of 0.3 is terrible. I don't think he has much of a jumper, most of his shots come around the rim, so sitting at 50% for his career is nothing special, although if that 56% he put up this year become the norm, that's not all that bad. You've got to believe a lot of those are putbacks with 3 and a half O-Boards a game. His FT% is terrible. There's no excuse to not hit AT LEAST above 60% as a professional basketball player.

He's supposedly got great D, he's always looked pretty good when I've paid attention, but I haven't seen that many of his games. Anyone want to give an opinion on him as a player that's not based on stats?



I did see that Felton had a 5.5mil qualifying offer. Do you think they resign him? Maybe if we're moving Rip we get him in a S&T with Okafor (then we can put those picks in no question) and move Stuckey to SG. Then you can move Rip for a PF. What would it take to make that happen?

Not a fan of Felton. Dude shoots terrible and doesn't really run an offense either.

Sure, Okefor is overpaid. But if you want a young center that's not overpaid, we certainly aren't getting him for Sheed resigned. Saving them money is the reason they might do it.

Yeah, he's not a scorer, but you'd be getting West to do that. I'd do the same S&T with Sheed for Kamen or Biedrins, but I don't think either team would do that.

They would have resigned Ben for that contract.

Ben is 6'8" and getting old. Okefor is 7 foot and still has his athleticism. Big difference.

Okefor puts up 13 PPG, 10 RPG and 2 BPG in 30 MPG

Ben puts up 3 PPG, 6.5 RPG and 1.3 BPG in 24 MPG (4 PPG, 8 RPG, 1.5 BPG in 30 MPG projected)

Tell me again how they are the same player?

I think our friend Fool is saying that if they were willing to give that $ to Ben, then why not give it to Okafor?

Which is an excellent point, as usual.

You also have to look at players that will be available for virtually nothing. Is Okafor two 1sts better than Chandler? They are both good rebounders, limited offensively and i'll give the nod to Okafor for D. I just don't see that worth two firsts.

I can totally see a Okafor/Felton package coming to the D in exchange for either a Sheed S&T or someone else that LB plucks off the roster. Rip?

Might take two seperate deals, though, if Sheed is involved.

Sheed would sell some tickets down there, I bet (more than Felton, that's for sure).

I'm all in favour of seeing different players in these plans but when we give up first round picks and sign and trade Rasheed I have to wonder if it's legit.

How many people seriously think we're gonna sign and trade Sheed?

How many people seriously think we're gonna be the ones handing over a couple of first round picks in a trade?

I thought we were the team in the driver's seat? Teams will be offering us picks, or that's what I've been led to believe.

I thought Joe D was King?

i see no reason any team would do a sign and trade for sheed. for one, he's very clearly showing signs of age and decline in play. not to mention the nagging injuries.

but the main thing is, his market value is not more than the MLE...IF it's even that high which i doubt. so there's no need to sign and trade and pay him more. a team can just sign him as a FA.

it ain't happening fellas, i'm sorry. if it does, dumars is not king....he's GOD!

I'm just gonna throw this out, now that some people are coming up with their own plans:

Has ANYONE (other than me, obviously) thought of trading Rip and Tay in the same package?

Say Phoenix sends us Amare and others for Rip and Tay?

Or Utah sends us Boozer, Brewer and things for Rip and Tay?

Or Toronto sent us Bosh and things for Rip and Tay?

Would anyone be willing to do it?

For me it would depend on what else came with the "star" big man.

Trouble being is, all that would do is allow us to keep our space....now, can you get a better player than Rip in FA or a salary dump?

Well, I wasn't really going for that angle Hermy (better individual player)

I was looking at building a better team.

Well, NBA teams are composed of players. If you think Rip isn't gonna work with something else you have planned then by all means. But let's not dump an all-star after one sketchy year.

I wasn't looking to dump him because he had a sketchy year.

Just trying to build a contending team.

IF Phoenix rang and offered Amare and ... um Jason Richardson and their pick for Tay and Rip would anyone entertain the thought? (Don't even know what the package might be)

How valuable is Amare/Bosh to us? Can we win another ring with Rip and/or Tay? How much rebuilding do we do? Or do we just add to what we have?

All those questions should be asked IMO.

Don't give up two unknown first rounders but trade Rip & Tay together? OK

i would trade them both. especially in a deal like that- unfortunately i don't see the suns wanting any part of that deal. but i realize you were just throwing an example out there....

the thing is, we can hold onto them and say how good they are or we can face reality and realize they can't help us get to where we want to go. they've gone as far as they can go. and while i have love for these guys and appreciate what they've done for us, they are very much incapable of playing the style of ball we need to play to get back to contending IMO.

sure rips an allstar. but can he get his own shot consistently against a swarming defense in the playoffs? can he take someone off the dribble and get to the line or finish in traffic. the answer to both questions is a big fat no.

don't misinterpret me- i'm not saying he's not a good player or that he hasn't had great success. or even that he can't continue to put up decent numbers. but when you look at the holes in his game, they are exactly what we desperately need and the exact skills that today's game is all about. sure, a guy who can be a killer midrange shooter can be good in any style. but they're not somebody who is going to take you to the next level.

and absent of a true superstar alongside him who CAN do those things, rip is going to be exposed as someone who can't. so we're better off cashing him in and trying to get something in return for him now while we have the chance.

same for prince. for the money they make and the cap space they take up, we're not getting what we need. it's not just numbers, it's about difference makers and guys who fit in the style we need to play. neither prince or rip can take people off the dribble and/or finish in traffic. those qualities are critical with the young athletes that swarm you on D nowadays. absent of them, you see them shut down quite easily or just negated when we need them the most.

oops. sorry for the long post.

So Rip and Prince can't win without a superstar, so you're going to trade them for other players who can't win without a superstar. Cause players can't win without superstars. What's the advantage? Are we getting younger and waiting on a superstar?

yes and no. what i'm saying is, without a superstar the flaws in their game become magnified. and yes, i realize all players play better alongside a superstar.

but what i'm saying is, the particular skill sets they posess are not suited to playing without a superstar in today's game. even then, i think their games are quickly becoming outdated. it's a young man's league where athleticism, ball handling, and driving the ball are key. they fall short in those areas in a big way that is exagerated even more absent of a superstar.

we do need to get younger, more athletic and more in line with the style of play which is needed to succeed in the league today. both players are making over $10 mil a year, i believe. that is a huge chunk of cap space for 2 players who don't fit what we need to do and have no hope in the future of fitting it either.

so i would move them for younger more athletic players and/or draft picks. on the surface it might seem counter-intuitive to trade serviceable players. but it is needed in order to start the rebuild. holding onto them limits our future flexibility IMO and prolongs the rebuilding process which needs to start ASAP.

but what i'm saying is, the particular skill sets they posess are not suited to playing without a superstar in today's game. even then, i think their games are quickly becoming outdated. it's a young man's league where athleticism, ball handling, and driving the ball are key. they fall short in those areas in a big way that is exagerated even more absent of a superstar.

we do need to get younger, more athletic and more in line with the style of play which is needed to succeed in the league today. both players are making over $10 mil a year, i believe. that is a huge chunk of cap space for 2 players who don't fit what we need to do and have no hope in the future of fitting it either.

so i would move them for younger more athletic players and/or draft picks. on the surface it might seem counter-intuitive to trade serviceable players. but it is needed in order to start the rebuild. holding onto them limits our future flexibility IMO and prolongs the rebuilding process which needs to start ASAP.


I respect the need to rebuild. Fact is we're gonna need a true ace and even then it's fat chance that we contend again any time soon.

I know the league has changed since we won the title, but not IMO to the exteme you're suggesting. People said the same of Cbil while here.....he seeming proved himself. It would be great to get Wade or a dangerous dribble drive guy but unless he's a stud he's just another guy as far as I can see.

yeah the cavs showed that even with a mega superstar, you need more to win.

BTW- i don't think the nba has changed overnight. but the game is being officiated completely different and we're seeing teams move more to the uptempo style utilizing athleticism like never before dribble drives and kickouts/ball movement like we haven't seen in ages. perhaps ever. (the athleticism part anyway)

it hasn't been a sudden thing it's been fairly gradual but now we're seeing the pendulum swing completely that way now. traditional centers are a thing of the past mostly. we're even seeing smaller PGs make a comeback. speed and athleticism are winning out over size.

no doubt, size is still a valuable thing and teams still want to add it. but with the style of play and what teams require of their players dictates that athleticism and speed are where it's at. and again, i can't stress enough the importance of having a player/s who are able to handle the ball and take people off the dribble.

this allows them to:
1- get their own shot
2- take defenders off the dribble, forcing the D to collapse.
3- this opens things up for more ball movement and gives shooters open spot
4- the ball handler also can go to the rim and either get to the line or finish in traffic.

teams can very easily sag on guys like rip who requires a screen to get over 60% of his points. think about that- teams hedge the screen or sag on him and he can't get to the ball and is taken out of his game. or we run the clock down trying to run him off screens and get him an open look.

no good. that deliberate style of basketball is a thing of the past. well, it's not a thing completely of the past. teams still run set plays like that. but you had sure better be able to be more versatile than that and be able to take people off the dribble and play more up tempo too. otherwise you will struggle to get points in the half court game and you'll be down 15 or 20 before you know what hit you.

sound familiar? that's what plagues this team and that is why i say we need to change the way we play or go the way of the dinosaurs. it doesn't mean we can't still preach and play D; the magic play some suffocating D when they need to, believe me. but they largely do it with their quickness and intensity. that is a product of the youth and athleticism they have.

we need quick-twitch athletes who can play up tempo and score off the dribble and from behind the 3 line. IMO the best way to achieve that is to set off on a new path and start over. there are no quick fixes for this team IMO.

we need some drastic changes and i hope joe is smart enough and gutsy enough to make them. if we hold onto false hope, we'll be mediocre- at best -for the next decade before we finally realize the rest of the league is passing us by while we're stuck in neutral.

one more thing about billups- his game hasn't changed but the team around him has. they play up tempo and they run and gun a lot. he has guys like melo and smith who can do what nobody on our roster can. not to mention that billups is free to push the ball too with runners like he has there. if they had the same sort of talent and tried to play the same style we played in detroit this year, billups and the nuggets wouldn't have made it out of round 1.

i bolded some of my post to avoid the wrath of those who say i write too much! sorry...

cavs lost to a team with a mega superstar and a guy on a max deal.

Pretty sure the Nuggets slowed down this year.

it was a LOT more than just dwight howard that won that series for them. i don't want to downplay his part in that because it was big. especially in the closeout game. but there were portions of that series where howard was on the bench in foul trouble and the magic were playing great basketball. they have a lot of good perimeter players- lewis, the turk, courtney lee, and pietrus. we don't have 1 guy like that, much less 4. slashers who can finish and also light it up from the 3 point line too. they played a huge role in their success too.

and don't misinterpret me- i never said denver played up tempo all the time. but they can and they did, a lot, to get points when the needed them.

ORL is not much of a "slashing" team IMO, especially with Jameer out. They're more of a swing it around club. I agree we need to add 3 point shooting, that's for sure.

I was just responding to your "denver changed" take. Seems with AI gone they attacked the hoop less.

I'm not against drives to the hoop of course, I just don't see it as the be-all, especially if you don't have one of these young-jesus types.

i think they do a fair amount of slashing. but most of all, they take people off the dribble which forces the D to react, at which point they swing the ball around and find the open perimeter shooter.

as soon as one guy takes his man off the dribble, they can move the ball and force the D to scramble around to cover. orlando does that beautifully and IMO it is due to their slashing abilities and ability to take people off the dribble.

and obviously when teams double howard it opens things up too, although he still is not a great passer out of those double teams.

the fact they have those really good deep shooters also makes people play them differently, which sends defenders running out to the 3 line to defend that shot. this allows them to make a move off the dribble to get past the defender and/or open things up for themself and others.

so again, we don't just need slashers or finishers or guys who can take people off the dribble. we need SHOOTERS too. and shooters who can shoot off the dribble. rip is a great midrange shooter and developing 3 point shooter. but he can't do that off the dribble and this means defenders defend him very differently than they would guys on orlando, for example. he's no real threat to take it past them if they run out to him.

yeah, but they can't leave rip an inch to help against Stuck, or he'll pop it in their eye.

Truth is we need slashing, shooting, and a big who commands a double, so yeah, we're fucked.

i knew we'd regret the day we let lou roe leave. we had it all and pissed it away.

Mercury:

I'm not crapping all over your plan. Lots of credit to you for chasing players I didn't think of (Conley, Landry, Battier) and for thinking of doing a sign and trade and moving those picks. You're thinking outside the box and have the balls to post it! That's great.

I just don't think we're gonna do a sign and trade with Sheed or trade first round picks.

I also don't think we're gonna trade Tay and Rip in the same package. I just threw it out there to see what kind of deal the board thought we could get or if anyone thought it was an option.

I don't think ANYONE had thought of moving them as a package. I know I didn't (until about 3 seconds before I posted it lol). So I just thought "what the hell", let's see what people think.

Is it gonna happen? Most likely not.

The reason I want people posting plans is to demonstrate how many options there are (a lot), see what players people value and see how much rebuilding each poster thinks we need.

An added bonus for me would be some CBA education, since I'm not as familiar with the new agreement as I was with the last.

It's just a pity very few have posted plans.

I seriously give you a ton of credit for posting your plan. It's so much easier to rip someone else's plan apart than to post your own. I'm still waiting for certain people to post their Grand Plans.

i haven't really sat and looked at who could be available in a trade in order to put together a concrete plan. too lazy. i prefer to have others do the work and then i either approve or disapprove of their suggestions on a case by case basis.

Detroit, Oklahoma City Talking Trade?

With the Detroit Pistons looking to get as far under the salary cap as they can this summer, and the Oklahoma City Thunder being one of the few teams who are able to help them shed salary, the two teams have emerged as natural trade partners, multiple NBA sources told DraftExpress this past weekend.

With very few teams projected to have cap space this summer (Oklahoma City, Memphis, Portland, Sacramento and Atlanta being the main ones), it appears that Detroit could be in great position to take advantage of the strength of this free agent class and nab a couple of pieces that would put them right back in the mix to compete for the Eastern conference finals. Detroit is currently slated to be around 20 million dollars underneath the cap, but could shed another five million or so by unloading the contracts of Amir Johnson and their first round pick (#15).

Enter the Oklahoma City Thunder. They are reportedly high on B.J. Mullens (as is Milwaukee), and likely would be able to nab him with the 15th pick. Considering how far under the cap they’ll be this summer, they would have no problem taking on Amir Johnson’s expiring 3.66 million dollar contract. They should be able to find a suitor for their late first round pick if they choose to do so, as teams like San Antonio, Houston, Toronto and Orlando are all in the market for a draft choice in that range.

With the money Detroit frees up, they could go after their top two free agent targets, rumored to be Paul Millsap and Ben Gordon.

http://www.draftexpress.com/blog/Jonathan-Givony/#Word-on-the-Street-June-2nd-3241

so what would WE get in a deal like that? a future #1...?

so what would WE get in a deal like that? a future #1...?


Nope. The cap space.

EARL WATSON


just kidding

So we're gonna give up Amir and our first in order to pay Millsap (Joe type) and Gordon more money?

Fuck, $9 million each sounds more than fair, especially when the world fucking knows we're the best team with money to spend.

We're basically bidding with ourselves and yet we're gonna pay top dollar for free agents? In this climate?

Why?

If a player wants to join a better team/situation then jump on board. I don't expect them to take millions less to do so but surely fair value is good enough?

A starting salary of $9 mil is a little steep for Millsap (I would start his deal at $8 mil and not a cent more) and Gordon would get the same.

AND who else would we sign after trading our pick and Amir? Even if you factor in spending $10 mil each on Millsap and Gordon you still have to figure we'd have almost $5 mil left over.

Would you rather give $10m to Millsap or David Lee?

Hell, I might give them both $10m at this point.

I'd rather give them both $10 mil each than give Millsap and Gordon $10 mil each.

We shouldn't even be thinking of paying a bench player that kind of money and unless I'm mistaken Gordon would be a fucking bench player.

His arrival also means less playing time for everybody's favourite (Bynum) and "The Enforcer" AA.

My idea (at this second) is to spend $10 mil on Millsap or Boozer (yes, I hate the idea but it seems it's likely) and then dangle Amir and the rest of our cap space for a C.

Possible Bigs available via trade or free agency:

Okafor
Varejao
Birdman
Jeff Foster (someone mentioned him)
Camby or Kaman
Gadzuric (someone mentioned him)
Chandler
West (I doubt it)
Lee
Eddy Curry
Gortat
Brand
Dalembert
Amare
Bosh
Okur
Millsap/Boozer (whichever one we didn't sign outright)
Haywood

Can't we get one of those guys to team with Boozer by dangling Amir and cap space/tax savings?

Who backs up Tay? Our Draft picks - here's hoping we get 2 reasonable dudes that combined can handle 15 mins on the perimeter as rookies

So, long post short:

C: C via trade or free agency making approx $11 mil
F: Boozer (deal starting @ $10 mil)
F: Prince
G: Rip
G: Stuckey
G: Bynum
G: AA
F: 2 Drafted Players
F: Maxiell
C: Kwame

Rest would be the other 2 rookies, who would wave towels and shit.

That bench isn't great (unless the rooks surprise) but you win with starters in this league. Check the minutes played for all the real starters in the Cleveland v Orlando series. BIG minutes.

I think Gordon is only an option if Rip is traded.

Then he's almost a necessity, IMO, unless you move Stuckey to SG.

Then we'd need a starting PG.

Well, if we move then sure you can sign Gordon. But if Rip is here then why sign Gordon?

And if we moved Rip who did we get to team with Millsap? If we're giving him $10 mil then we better have traded Rip for a C.

This makes no sense. Joe needs to package RIP with that pick (and Amir if need be) to get a big. Signing Gordon and Millsaip with RIP here is stupid. I think Joe really needs to focus on using the cap space to take on players in trades. Sure, you can get a PF (Lee, Millsaip, Boozer) with the space, but he could also get another two solid players by turning someone like Max into a 10 mil all star player.

u think okc would accept a rip/15 for jeff green?

im really high on green, favorite young player at the moment. can play a little 4 and would be a good backup for tayshaun. assuming greeen continues to get better, tay would be expandable.

If Joe gives up our first plus Amir for nothing but cap space, I'm going to be pissed off. Even in this weak draft there will be a player at 15 that can help us and I think that Amir has value on his own.

We should definitely trade our starting SG and our highest draft pick for a backup for Tayshaun.

If Joe gives up our first plus Amir for nothing but cap space, I'm going to be pissed off. Even in this weak draft there will be a player at 15 that can help us and I think that Amir has value on his own.


So does cap space.

We should definitely trade our starting SG and our highest draft pick for a backup for Tayshaun.

makes tay expandable, gives more capspace, more freedom to make moves and jeff green is a good young talent. if the BG to pistons rumors are true, might as well trade rip for young proven talent

Green is a good talent, but he's not the level of talent you give up tayshaun for. Much rather have Travis Outlaw, who really could blossom in a starting role.

And if BG to the pistons is true, we're probably going after millsapp too, which means jeff green is redundant.

So does cap space.

At some point you reach the point of diminishing returns.

If you move Rip, that means Gordon can play the 2. On other teams that would be a devastating small backcourt, but since Stuckey can guard shooting guards, it would work out quite well for us.

What do you guys think of keeping Rip, signing Gordon, and having the best 4 guard rotation in the league?

Stuckey 28
Rip 28
Gordon 28
Bynum 12
Total 96 minutes
We have already seen how deadly Bynum is in short spurts. Now sign Millsap, start Kwame, and go

Kwame
Millsap
Prince
Gordon
Stuckey

Bench
Hamilton
Bynum
Maxiell

Thoughts?

LOL@Rip being happy coming off the bench again.

At some point you reach the point of diminishing returns.


Yeah, but nowhere near where that puts us. We do need 2 new bigmen. We don't have enough scratch to get them.

LOL@Rip being happy coming off the bench again.

Yeah, I think that's the worst idea ever.

Yeah, but nowhere near where that puts us. We do need 2 new bigmen. We don't have enough scratch to get them.
It's not just the bait on the line, but the fish in the pond.

Yeah, but nowhere near where that puts us. We do need 2 new bigmen. We don't have enough scratch to get them.

You can trade for one (a solid defensive/rebounding center) and sign another (scoring PF).

It doesn't matter how much space you have when there isn't a solid young center to sign anyway.

You can trade for one (a solid defensive/rebounding center) and sign another (scoring PF).

It doesn't matter how much space you have when there isn't a solid young center to sign anyway.


So you trade for one....now you have a hole to fill. Hey, lets sign somebody to fill that hole.

It's not just the bait on the line, but the fish in the pond.


It's also the other fishermen on the shore. And we're alone with our choice of fish.

The boat also plays a roll I feel. As does the dog and the beer. We must not forget the beer.

Every try that "Spider Line" shit? Real nice, smooth on the reel, fish can't detect it. I think that's what Brand used last year to fuck over the Clippers.

Fucking agents have no respect for resource management and responsible fishing.

If we acquire Millsap, we should trade Max, not Amir.

Who would take Max?

A used boat anchor dealership.

Who would take Max?
Utah... they'd need a backup... it's their obligation for Joe not taking the PF they want to keep (Milsap).... sortof a Memo catch and release.

So who's buying a fishing boat? Tahoe? He lives by a lake right?

Edit #1: 1st paragraph removed for stupidity. Should have done my research.

Rip is an all-star caliber sniper. Unless Jeff Green is on the verge of becoming an all-star himself, that's a no go.

Edit #2: I just gave a look to Green's numbers, granted they're on a poor Oklahoma team, but they're solid, and he's very young and athletic, can play the 3 and move to the 4 for a smallball lineup (much better than Tay), plus he's going to keep improving.

In 37 minutes, he put up 16pts-7rbs-2ast-1stl-45%FG-39%3pt-79%ft
Not too bad for a guy in his 2nd year that's only 22. Probably not someone you're going to grab in a trade for Rip and #15.

I really can't see a trade that works between those two teams at first glance, but I'm going to give it a try anyway and post whatever I come up with.

You've got to keep in mind that they've built a team that will develop a lot like Portland did, only they've got a legitimate "Potential MVP" type talent to build around. They're probably not looking to make a big push next year or trade away any young talent with potential for a vet unless he's a vet leader that can push the young guys.

The only thing I can even think of is if we gave them either Rip or Tay and a 1st for either Green or their 1st, or something along those lines. Its highly unlikely and the only real way to justify it is if OKC signs or trades for a legit big man and thinks that they can make a push with these guys and be a threat in the playoffs. Not a title contender, but someone that could upset some teams.

Say OKC signs Milsap, a young PF just coming into his own. That gives them a lineup of:

Westbrook
Durant
Green
Milsap
Krstic

Where does the veteran leadership and playoff experience come from?

Scenario #1
They have the #3 pick in the draft and are rumored to like Harden, a SG.
We trade them Tayshaun and our 1st for Green.
They draft Harden at 3 and Mullens at 15
They start Tayshaun in Green's spot and control his minutes by moving Durant to SF when they want Tayshaun to sit, effectively giving him the backup and rest he has always needed.

Why this works:
Tayshaun's still relatively young, so he would work into their long-term plans as well as their short-term needs.

He provides playoff experience and the veteran leadership, leading by example and building on the vocal leadership he was starting to show this season, both things that the Thunder lack. Being shoved into this role would push him to do so even more than last season with the Pistons when no one wanted to step up and lead.

He commands the respect of the young players. He's won a championship and been to the conference finals a handful of times. He's put up game saving highlight plays but keeps his head in the game and keeps working instead of showboating after.

He's busts his butt on defense and gets respect from his peers around the league for it. This should rub off on the young teammates that are more focused on offense than defense. Having a player like that can alter the development and career path of young impressionable players (see Carmelo Anthony).

With the #15 pick, they get a guy they have a lot of interest in that can take his time developing behind Krstic and Collison. They have no rush to bring him along. With #3 they get a SG that can be instant offense off the bench. When they move Durant to SF to give Tay a rest, he can step in without them losing a beat. When Durant needs a break, same thing. He allows them to go small when it gives them the advantage.

The Pistons get a young SF with a lot of potential and can build around Green and Stuckey.

This gives them even more cap space. They can take on a big contract for Amir or Max, then package the other with Rip for a big and still have room to sign a solid FA.

Once this trade goes through:
Trade Amir to GS for Biedrins. Nelly doesn't like Biedrins, Amir could use his athleticism in their open court fast paced offense, it clears some cap space for GS.
Trade Rip and Max to the Suns for Amare and probably give him an extension.
Sign a SG (preferably a combo guard), probably Gordon. We could also get a PG and move Stuckey to SG.

Stuckey
Gordon
Green
Amare
Biedrins

The only part of that that's a stretch is Green, AFAICT. Stuckey's on his rookie deal, Green is on his rookie deal, Biedrins isn't making TOO much, Gordon can probably be had for 8-9mil because I don't see who else is going to be bidding against us for him. It would just depend on how much Amare gets in the extension, or if we decide to just have him for the year and try our luck next summer, which wouldn't be the best idea since this would use up a lot of our cap space.

I'll put scenario #2 in another post since this is so long.

Scenario #2

Same setup as post #30

OKC doesn't want to trade us Green because he's a proven young player. They feel they can use him off the bench as a backup SF/PF like they did his rookie year and still get him enough minutes.

Instead, we trade them Tayshaun and #15 for #3. They're looking to win now and don't want to take the chance on that #3 pick in this weak draft class.

Mostly the same reasons for why it works. They get Tayshaun and everything I said about his leadership, work ethic, defense, etc.

They can keep Durant at the 2 and can split his backup minutes with Westbrook and Tayshaun depending on matchups. Bigger opposing SG, Tayshaun. Smaller opposing SG, Westbrook.

Instead of trying to use Tayshaun at the 4 when they go small, they can leave Westbrook, Durant, and Tayshaun on the floor and just bring in Green and move Milsap to C. Technically they'd have the quick, athletic lineup that defines "going small" but they would still have a lot of length on the floor.

They still use #15 to pick up Mullens and let him develop behind Krstic and Collins, and the room to pick up another low salary C for their depth chart, someone like Chris Wilcox.

Pistons get the extra cap space, but not quite as much as with the last deal. It is still enough to make any moves they need, though.

Pistons have their choice of Rubio, Harden, Hill, DeRozan, etc. with the #3, assuming that Memphis takes Thabeet. This gives them another piece to pair with Stuckey and build from. If Joe likes the idea of Stuckey at the point, he can take Harden as our version of Ben Gordon, or he can take Hill to fill that need in the front court and develop into the PF presence we're all dying to get. If Joe likes Stuckey more as a SG/combo guard, he can take Rubio to become the catalyst of his offense.

All of these can play out differently. Joe has to get a SF no matter what, because we're left with none on the roster.

If Joe drafts Hill:
Rip+Max is moved for a big that is a full-time C or has the ability to play PF and C and Amir for a SF or SG. We sign whichever position we don't trade for.
or
We still do Amir for Biedrins and look to use Rip+Max to go after a SF or SG, and sign the other. I don't have the time to really look at trade possibilities right now. I've probably spent way too much time on this already.

Potential:
Stuckey
Gordon
Trade (Rip+Max)
Hill
Biedrins



If draft Rubio or Harden, things don't really change from the last scenario. Rip still gets packaged to go after Amare or Bosh, then Amir or Max (whichever is left) can be used to get someone like Biedrins.

Rubio (or Stuckey)
Stuckey (or Harden)
Williams
Amare/Bosh
Biedrins

Neither of those lineups look fantastic, but I'd say both are probably an upgrade to where we're at now. I don't like this one as much as I thought I would, and no where near as much as Scenario #1.

Hopefully it made sense.

Is Green more of a SF or PF? I've been considering him a SF that could play some PF this whole time, but I looked at their starting lineups and he started in both spots quite a bit, actually a little bit more at PF.

SF starts:35
PF starts:43

When he's starting at PF, Durant is starting at SF. They're not going to want to start Tay at PF ever, let alone half of the season. If they decide Durant is a SF, we could potentially swap Rip in for Tay in this deal, but where do we play Green? SF or PF? I think we all want a post-up PF but can Green thrive at SF? Maybe he'd be great and he's only a PF because of Durant, but maybe they move Durant to SF because Green is better off at PF. That changes pretty much everything I said above.

I think he plays more like a small forward, but in todays NBA could be a powerforward. Think Rashard Lewis.

And Zekyl, both those lineups are light years better than where we are currently.

Pharaoh is always bitching about people posting trade scenarios. I'd like to hear his input on this. As long as Green can play SF, I love the idea. I'd actually like to tweak it to give us Hinrich instead of Gordon. I just see him as a better fit with Stuckey. I'm not quite sure how to do it, though.

Green is better suited for the 3.

I'd probably be better off starting a new trade idea thread since I know this will get all sorts of messed up if I don't.

If you don't want to get bitchslapped, then I think that would be best.

This thread is for rumors/media speculation.

We got a whole goddamn trade idea subforum that needs business.

Yeah, I got off on a tangent when the OKC rumor popped up. New thread in the trade forum. Don't hurt me.

I don't know if OKC wanna deal Green but everyone is making plans that we aren't sure we could pull off so it's all good.

I think you explain your case fairly well and it all works out in the end so that's cool too. Stuckey, Rip and Green and a ton of cap space is an awesome place to start, considering that Green is really young and just had a pretty good season.

What can we do with that space? There are a thousand options and your guess(es) are as good as mine.

Some people might complain that you didn't use Tay and our pick to get your big but whatever, man. It's a different scenario than ones we've been seeing and upgrades the team significantly.

At the end of the day that's what we're trying to do, right? Get better, younger, more athletic etc.

Oh, just saw we got Jordan Hill at #3 and didn't get Green.

I like that too - he's a young big that could (hopefully) develop into something really good.

Someone is gonna say that OKC is not looking to add salary or whatever but fuck it - it's your plan and it makes sense and you made your case really well.

I actually like the fact that you used players that haven't really been discussed or even mentioned. That takes some guts and some out-of-the-box thinking is always good to see on the board.

And you came up with 2 plans that got us younger and more athletic. That's cool, because I think half the board are sick and tired of our old team style and wanna see us change.

Knicks' David Lee will draw interest
By VINCE ELLIS • FREE PRESS SPORTS WRITER • June 8, 2009

A short note in Sunday's Boston Globe said the New York Knicks are "trying to work out a sign-and-trade for power forward David Lee in a cost-cutting move."

And since Lee, picked 30th by the Knicks in the 2005 draft, is an athletic frontcourt player coming off a career-best season, it figures the Pistons would be interested.

The Knicks are considered to be one of the teams angling to have a lot of salary-cap space for the summer of 2010 when the highly touted free-agent class of LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh and Amare Stoudemire are among the players expected to hit the market.

So it makes sense that the Knicks would pass on giving Lee, who made just over $1.7 million last season, a big raise for averaging 16 points and 11.7 rebounds.

Lee, 6-feet-9 and 240 pounds, is an active frontcourt presence who is in constant motion, grabbing offensive rebounds and being an outright pest.

In a game against the Golden State Warriors in November, Lee, who played at Florida, set career highs with 37 points and 21 boards.

It was the first 30-20 game in regulation for the Knicks since Hall of Famer Patrick Ewing had 36 points and 21 rebounds against Philadelphia on Jan. 23, 1994.

It would be really nice if nobody was interested in matching on FA's and we got Lee and Gordon or Hedo for discount rates. Probably not likely though.

Do a sign and trade with the Knicks.

We'd send them Kwame for Lee, signed to a 5 year deal starting @ $8 mil.

Only costs us $4 mil in cap space.

Think about how easy it would be to do what Otis Smith did. Wait until a dominant big man like Howard is available, lose 19 games in a row, get the top pick. Then while your top pick is making only 4 mil a year, you spend $$ on Turkoglu and Lewis and you have a hell of a frontcourt.

Could Blake Griffin be that player? I don't think so, Howard is miles ahead in terms of size and defensive capability, but it is something to keep an eye on in the future. The way the NBA is structured really seems to favor spacing the floor with shooters and having one dominant big man.

Except that top 3 picks keep going to teams without the worst 3 records.

yeah. Only two teams have EVER finished last and won the top pick in the lottery era.

lee is a real nice rotation guy. love him in that role. but while his market value will probably command that type of salary, i just don't want anything to do with him at that price. i think the MLE for a full 5 years is about as high as i'd go for a guy like him. (i know we don't have it to spend. i'm just speaking in terms of his pricetag)

a 5 year $40 million+ package seems outrageous to me. he might get that on the open market. but i just hope it's not from us. IMO he's only worth half of that because he is a real nice player who is very productive and capable, but not a guy you gameplan for.

JMO of course. maybe it's just the idea of paying a white guy big bucks in a bidding war just brings back awful memories of jon konkac or however you spell his name. fortunately for us, the hawks were dumb enough to match our offer and we never wasted all that money on him.

he was a solid player but not worth even half of what he got at that time.

lee is a real nice rotation guy. love him in that role. but while his market value will probably command that type of salary, i just don't want anything to do with him at that price. i think the MLE for a full 5 years is about as high as i'd go for a guy like him. (i know we don't have it to spend. i'm just speaking in terms of his pricetag)

a 5 year $40 million+ package seems outrageous to me. he might get that on the open market. but i just hope it's not from us. IMO he's only worth half of that because he is a real nice player who is very productive and capable, but not a guy you gameplan for.

JMO of course. maybe it's just the idea of paying a white guy big bucks in a bidding war just brings back awful memories of jon konkac or however you spell his name. fortunately for us, the hawks were dumb enough to match our offer and we never wasted all that money on him.

he was a solid player but not worth even half of what he got at that time.

I really like Lee and don't see him as being anything like a Jon Konkac. Lee is not only a good player but the guy hustles and plays hard. I see him being every bit as good as Milsap and everyone seems willing to throw a bunch of cash his way so why not Lee?

Lee vs. Millsap discussion moved here: http://wtfdetroit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15168