I know that much will be dictated by both free agency and trades this summer, but since the NCAA Tournament is underway, I thought we could start discussing potential players that Joe might be looking at.

According to NBADraft.net's projections, it doesn't look like a very good year to be looking for a center, they only have 6 being drafted right now (since this is fluid, that's likely to change, of course).

http://www.nbadraft.net/2009mock_draft

Gotta think that Joe will go big, even if he acquires a vet big or two this summer, right?

the strategy will depend largely on what kind of a pick we get.

If we can swindle a high lotto pick, we'll be looking for a big. If not, we'll probably be looking for a backup guard or wing.

In addition to our own two picks (#16 & #46 as of the last NBADraft.com update the other day), we also get Minnesota and Toronto's own 2nds (currently #36 & #38).

#16
#36
#38
#46

Gl'enn, do we get THEIR picks or a second round pick from them? There is a big difference...

Their own picks, in both cases.

source: RGM

Tenuous source, but we will deal with it.

Those picks, especially in todays financial market, are GOLD. Hopefully Joe can trade those picks to move up into the first round and get a guy he likes.

it is very hard to package picks and move into a spot of value in the nba draft. if it was the nfl, it would be easy. but since the value of later picks falls off SIGNIFICANTLY, you will have a hard time packaging picks to get a high lotto pick, for example.

that being said, even with a lotto pick, this year's draft is EXTREMELY weak IMO and i don't see too many difference makers.

The only reason for the theory of say packing two seconds for a first is the economy. Teams could be interested in sending a first, which is guaranteed money for a couple seconds who they can tell to go overseas or just not sign to contracts if they don't pan out over the summer.

In addition to our own two picks (#16 & #46 as of the last NBADraft.com update the other day), we also get Minnesota and Toronto's own 2nds (currently #36 & #38).

#16
#36
#38
#46

Those are some nice picks to have.

36 and 38 should be very attractive to teams looking to trade out of the first round.

46 is a wash, but it's possible we find a Euro and stash him.

Naturally we'd all expect #16 to bring in somecunt that can actually play.

I don't see us going big though - I'd rather we draft a back up for Prince. It seems like years since he had a decent back up.

Steph Curry should be floating around when we have our 1st pick.

He's probably a tad bit overrated, but I'd love that sweet jumpshot coming off our bench.

I read in SI that Steph Curry wanted to at Davidson another year to make another run at the NCAA Tournament. Obviously a lot could change before the draft.

Doesn't Curry translate to a 6-1 SG in the NBA? Does he have any PG skills?

DrRay voicing my concerns there. Is he going to be able to get himself an open shot? He's going to be guarded by guys much bigger than he is, and I don't know that he's got the handle to shake someone and get himself that open jumper.

I'd consider this douche Devendorf in the 2nd round. He should be drafted, I think.

He's like Billy Lambs, everyone hates him cept for the team he's playing on. I could see his dumb ass being a Celtic. He can't hit the 3 with a hnd in his face.

He was suspended a couple times though. Not sure what for.

I'd consider this douche Devendorf in the 2nd round. He should be drafted, I think.

He's like Billy Lambs, everyone hates him cept for the team he's playing on. I could see his dumb ass being a Celtic. He can't hit the 3 with a hnd in his face.

He was suspended a couple times though. Not sure what for.

No way, he's a megadouche!

Plus, I'm not 100% on this, but I think he hit his girlfriend.

He can beat up a girl? What a tough guy? fuck him.

Someone will take a shot on him, won't they...even with that record?

curry has no pg skills, but will get his own since he's quick with his feet and his shot.

http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm has some interesting insights.

http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm has some interesting insights.

Thnx... good stuff.
They don't have the ability to factor in defensive contributions (which is always the weak link in statisticle analysis)...
It is useful information for setting folks str8 about the actual impact of a #16 pick (and 2nd rounders)... this is pretty consistent with what USA Today came up with a few years back.
Bottom line is that we can do a lot better by packaging picks to move up or obtaining a PROVEN vet.

Wow!

That research shows we are fucked this coming Draft:

#16 = 11.7

If only we could get the #17 pick - that has a rating of 13.4.

Hell, they should have fucking tried harder so we could have picked #21 (13.1) or #24 (13.0).

In the second round we should trade our picks for any of the following, cause they all have higher ratings than where we're likely to pick:

30 8.9
31 6.8
32 6.6
33 6.0
34 7.6
37 9.6 And naturally we pick #36 and #38. Excuse for Joe already.
40 7.0
41 6.0
43 7.8
45 7.8

Oh, and thanks for the link Mxy:

According to that site only the Knicks (7.7), Houston (7.7) Atlanta Hawks (8.2) have a shittier Draft record than we do from 1989-2008!

http://www.82games.com/bestdraftingteams.htm

Didn't I say our scouts were shit?

Somebody find out who the fuck has worked in the scouting dept in Milwaukee, Phoenix, Lakers, Spurs, Memphis/Vancouver.

The trends interest me more than anything. I suspect that #37 being better than #36 or #38 is statistical noise (along with #44 being really bad compared to #43 or #45). Overall, it's clear than a mid-30s pick is about the same as a low-mid 40s pick

There seems to be a definite, but only mild, breakpoint right around 1st round vs. 2nd round (which over the years has varied). My hunch is that late-20s 1st round picks on the whole are about the same as #31-45, but get more of a chance to play and blossom because they have guaranteed money.

The dropoff between #1 and everyone else isn't a shocker, but the dropoffs between #5 to #6 and #10 to #11 are surprising. It gives some historical perspective on trading up or trading down in the draft in a general sense. It's not worth trading up unless we get top 10.

Note that the absolute rankings for "best drating teams" don't account for where we drafted. When they factor that in, and what the reasonable expectations are, we're middle of the road. The Lakers under Jerry West drafted some great players, that's for sure...

#37 could be someone like Redd or Manu who turned into a star after being taken in the 2nd round. That would throw everything off.

Um, yes it's highly likely someone like Redd or Manu was drafted at 37 and it changed the rating in a big way.

That said I still CORRECTLY claim that our scouts are shit.

And Mxy I too was a little surprised to see that there is very, very little difference between players picked at the very top of the second round and say pick #45.

Most fans talk about trading up to get a pick in the early 30's, like they're gonna grab the one guy with Lotto talent that fell. According to 82games those picks from #31 to #36 are no better than #45!

And Mxy, 82games did the study - I didn't change the data. The numbers tell the story. You are probably the smartest dude on here when it comes to numbers and shit, so don't go trying to slip one past me. I used your link - it proved my case.

The numbers show us to both be right in a sense. In absolute terms ("pick performance" in the 82games chart), yeah, our drafting sucks. In relative terms, factoring in the position/quality of the picks that we had ("expected performance"), it's been middle of the road. That's why, when you look at the chart at http://www.82games.com/bestdraftingteams.htm , we show up in the middle, not at the sucky end. :)

Barring a trade (or landing in the top 3 in the lottery), Cole Aldrich is the guy that I'm interested in.


Sophomore season
With the departure of the other Jayhawk big men to the NBA draft, Aldrich became the premier big-man going into his sophomore season. Through the first 29 games, he is averaging a double-double with 15.1 points and 10.8 rebounds in 29.7 minutes of play. He grabbed a career-high 20 rebounds in an 87-78 win over Oklahoma on February 23, 2009. On March 8, 2009, Aldrich was named to the 2008-09 Big 12 All-conference first team. On March 22, 2009 Aldrich recorded the first official triple-double in the history of Kansas basketball against Dayton in the second round of the NCAA tournament. Aldrich accumulated 13 points, 20 rebounds, and 10 blocks in a 60-43 victory.

I don't know anything about him, but I'd really like to draft some toughness. Whomever is the pick, make him someone who will step up when Shaq fouls Stuckey hard or something.

I like the D Blair type attitude for the Pistons.

Sheed drifts outside too much leaving a skinny AJ underneath and Tay. That doesn't work, imo.

I'd like Blair too, if he wasn't 6'6".

Seems too Maxiellish.

I'd like Blair too, if he wasn't 6'6".

Seems too Maxiellish.

agreed.

I'd like Blair too, if he wasn't 6'6".

Seems too Maxiellish.

Agreed.

I like Blair's attitude more than his size.

Cole needs a little Max in him. He's tough enough underneath, but never on the move, and he gets pushed off a spot if he can't establish it.

I did like his smarts though, and he's a legit 5 from looking at his frame. Oostertag with a higher IQ and maybe a touch of jumper. Not a bad pick at 11-15.

The jumper is nice, but if he can rebound and block shots anywhere near as well as he has in college, that would be good enough for me.

He even makes free throws (although his form is ugly as hell).

Does he have a lil mean streak on defense?

edit...nvm 31 answered that

h7WvGTHYNPY

Damn, I forgot how bad of an ass whooping that game was.

It was because of Cole. If Cole was coached by Izzo? Possibilities are endless. And it might happen.

Would he leave this year? I have to think with the good tournament he's had that he'd go in the teens at worst. Wonder where Mullins will go

So is the general feeling we'll draft a big?

I know that's an area we need help but I just want them to take the best player available. If that means taking a PG then so be it.

You can always make trades later.

I wonder if Draft Day will see us be like Portland? That team is all over the Draft like stink on shit. They make trade after trade after trade and I always sit there and wonder how the fuck they can do it a couple of years in a row and we can't do it.

So is the general feeling we'll draft a big?

I know that's an area we need help but I just want them to take the best player available. If that means taking a PG then so be it.

You can always make trades later.

I wonder if Draft Day will see us be like Portland? That team is all over the Draft like stink on shit. They make trade after trade after trade and I always sit there and wonder how the fuck they can do it a couple of years in a row and we can't do it.


$

Yeah, I realised that after I hit the reply button

Any thoughts on Goran Suton from MSU? Obviously not in the lotto, but later on. He's got decent size (6'10" 245lbs) and he can really shoot. Hits 42% of his 3s, 51% from the floor, and 85% from the line. When I was watching the Elite 8 game, he just made solid touch passes, always seemed to know where his teammates were, and killed the other team if they left him open. Solid bench player for sure.

NBA Draft day should be like christmas... Joe seems to make it feel like a swift kick in the nuts every damn year.

Any thoughts on Goran Suton from MSU? Obviously not in the lotto, but later on. He's got decent size (6'10" 245lbs) and he can really shoot. Hits 42% of his 3s, 51% from the floor, and 85% from the line. When I was watching the Elite 8 game, he just made solid touch passes, always seemed to know where his teammates were, and killed the other team if they left him open. Solid bench player for sure.

He sort of reminds me of Memo with lesser skills...sort of.

I actually had that typed and deleted it for fear of being mocked and ridiculed.

I actually had that typed and deleted it for fear of being mocked and ridiculed. I actually had that typed and deleted it for fear of being mocked and ridiculed. I actually had that typed and deleted it for fear of being mocked and ridiculed.

wah! wah! wah! is that funny?

Freakin Clevelander!

I thought I was setting someone up for a solid Cleveland joke there. You let me down.

NBA Draft day should be like christmas... Joe seems to make it feel like a swift kick in the nuts every damn year.

And all this time I thought I was alone.

Donna (Southfield, Mich.): Since the Pistons have four draft picks, do you think they’ll decide to choose players in the second round, as they did last year, who will agree to play overseas? What do you think will happen with Deron Washington? Will Trent Plaisted be given another shot this summer?

:langlois:
Langlois: There’s a decent chance the Pistons will attempt to move one of their three second-rounders for a future second-rounder to spread out the classes a little. But, yeah, whomever they choose in the second round probably will be expected to play overseas for at least a season. Washington almost surely will play on the Las Vegas Summer League team again this year and the Pistons will then have to decide whether to sign him or encourage him to play overseas again. He’s had a positive first season in Israel. But the Pistons won’t really know if they have room or the need for him until they see him in person and, more importantly, make the major moves they expect to make and then see what else is needed to fill out around the edges. Plaisted began the season in Italy but returned to the United States quickly with a back injury that has been resolved. He has been cleared to play and has an opportunity to play in Puerto Rico for what’s left of their season but has yet to sign. He also is expected to join the Pistons for Summer League.

What, no Christmas?

it would be nice to get a guy who can play right away instead of drafting some future europe league player or a guy with "potential" and a 5 year waiting process...Joe had one decent 2nd round pick in Amir, and Okur was great obviously...i want the next Chalmers or Millsap, not the next Alex Acker damnit!

I just realized something. Davidson is dead, time to hire Zeke as our director of scouting.

Bring on the Balkman picks?

sadly this is one of the weakest draft classes in recent memory. and that is assuming a bunch of underclassmen will declare.

but considering we'll probably draft at about #15, we will have to be very lucky to land a true impact player.

I want Blake Griffin.

Do we need an Impact player from this pick next season?

I'm guessing no - we should be looking for a guy that can contribute next season but has the ability and the mental toughness and the drive to be a starter within 3 years.

I'm not talking about potential - I'm talking about a guy that has proven himself to be on a certain level and our scouts determining if he has the drive and toughness to continue to adapt his game, grow his game and improve on his weaknesses in the next 3 years.

If we find a guy like that, who is driven, then we need to Draft him - regardless of the position he plays.

Cole Aldrich is returning to Kansas for his junior season, according to a source close to the program.

Well, that sucks right there.

I guess he aspired to be one of the top picks next year?

Ford: Who's helped their stock in the tourney? (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2009/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=TourneyWatch-090331)

Ford's top 20:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/rank?draftyear=2009&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba draft%2fdraft%2ftracker%2frank%3fdraftyear%3d2009

What do you think of Earl Clark with our pick?

Arizona's Baldinger F, or something just declared, if I saw that right.

Chase Budinger.

^ Thats him.

Dejaun Blair Pit to kind of declare. He's doing the workouts but won't hire an agent so he can return to Pit if he isn't projected go as high as he wants...I guess.

Devendorf and Jonny Flynn are both testing the draft waters. Flynn won't get an agent, Devendorf might. I forget which mock draft it was, but in the mock the Pistons took Flynn at 15.

That's NBAdraft.net, although they don't take into account team needs at this points. It's really just their overall rankings, placed next to the corresponding team by order.

Any thoughts on Goran Suton from MSU? Obviously not in the lotto, but later on. He's got decent size (6'10" 245lbs) and he can really shoot. Hits 42% of his 3s, 51% from the floor, and 85% from the line. When I was watching the Elite 8 game, he just made solid touch passes, always seemed to know where his teammates were, and killed the other team if they left him open. Solid bench player for sure.

Suton sounds like he could be a good fit for the Pistons after all.


As is always the case, the first day of the camp revolves more around who didn’t show up, rather than who did. Quite a few players decided to pull out once again this year, which is very surprising considering that they won’t have any other place to be seen now. There are definitely still a good bunch of NBA prospects here, but you have to wonder a bit about the decision making skills of some of the players that rejected the opportunity to improve their chances of making the NBA, especially in a year like this.


If players are going to pull out, though, they should do it as early as possible so as not to waste everyone’s time and plenty of money. Goran Suton decided to pull out on the day of the camp at 3:30 in the afternoon, citing “fatigue.” Beyond the fact that he’s anything but a lock to be drafted and would probably benefit from the exposure of the dozens of European teams here in attendance more than anyone thanks to his Croatian passport—he could have handled this situation a lot better.


More here: http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Portsmouth-Invitational-Tournament-Day-One-3170/

Brad (West Bloomfield, Mich.): This summer the Pistons need to address an area they tried to address by acquiring Allen Iverson – someone who can put the ball in the basket. Steph Curry fits that description to a T. He’s a smart ballplayer and the best pure scorer in the draft and we have the pieces to pull a draft-day trade.

Langlois: I’m not sure they do have what it takes to pull a draft-day trade, Brad – not if you’re talking just about draft picks, at least. It’s also tough to say where Curry is going to land because there are reservations about his size and true position. Most seem to think he’ll go somewhere around 10. What would it take to get up from the late teens to 10? One thing that might give Joe Dumars pause about such a move is that the cap hold would be considerably greater for a pick in the top 10 – teams have to set aside enough money to satisfy the salary allotted based on draft position – and that would affect how much money he has available to him under the salary cap. In fact, it’s conceivable he’d be looking to trade out of the first round altogether to give him that much more money under the cap in order to sign a quality free agent and still have the wherewithal to make competitive bids on Rasheed Wallace and Antonio McDyess.

What a great way to rebuild the team!

Devendorf and Jonny Flynn are both testing the draft waters. Flynn won't get an agent, Devendorf might. I forget which mock draft it was, but in the mock the Pistons took Flynn at 15.

According to the same source, Jonny Flynn will pull his name out of the draft if he’s not firmly in the lottery by the time the deadline rolls around a week before the draft. If he’s “16, 17, 18, he’s definitely coming back to school.” Regarding why he initially wavered on that decision based on his comments during the NCAA tournament, Flynn reportedly didn’t realize that he was projected to be taken as high as he currently is, with most mock drafts having him between 20-30 at the time of the Big East tournament. Since he’s “hearing he could be a top-10 pick,” his situation has changed in turn. Despite rumors here in Portsmouth that he’s already selected his agent, he is apparently still only testing the waters.

That's too bad. I like Flynn, but I'm not sure he would fit on the Pistons. I'm pretty sure Will Bynum is the future.

With the way our scouts handle the Draft I could see us trading all our picks

No point having them if we don't know how to use them.

You're being unfair, P. We have really only messed up on lotto picks (few and far between).

DrRay11, remember that, if we drafted a dud at #37, and #38 turns out to be an All-Star, Pharaoh turns into a a mushroom-cloud-layin' motherfucker. His icon shoots people who have the best intentions. ;)

Damn straight I'll complain.

IMO our debate (Mxy) comes down to what you believe is the #1 factor in player development. Either the team is responsible for the player improving or the player is responsible for improving.

IMO the #1 thing is the player's individual drive to succeed/adjust to the NBA.

Kobe Bryant wasn't the best player in the Draft the year he came out of High School - dude worked his ass off to be this fucking good. I doubt that if he spent all these years in Charlotte he'd be a vastly different player - he just has that animalistic drive to succeed.

Kevin Garnett spent all those fucked up years in Minnesota - wasn't close to being the best guy that Draft at the time. Looking back on it now he was drafted too low at #5 because he had that drive to succeed. Yeah, he had McHale and other people helping him - but every player has people helping him.

Why don't we draft fuckers with that animalistic drive? Maxiell has the potential to fucking destroy people in the NBA - but he doesn't. He has not improved much since we drafted him. Amir? WTF happened to his potential? I thought he'd put it all together this season, but he seems to have stalled. Darko? Delfino?

All lotto picks, right? Um, no - Joe and his scouts fuck up picks all through the Draft, it doesn't matter what number they pick at.

All I wanna see are the Pistons drafting people who wanna wreck shop in the NBA. They come in and fucking OWN! If you're a big then smash people. If you're a shooter then shoot 1000 jump shots every fucking day until you are Larry Bird-like. If you're a slasher then work on your handle...

If you're a PG then we're fucked because I believe the only way to improve as a PG is to actually play as many games as you can so you have experience in game situations. You can't practice how the D will react. You can go through the motions, but going through the motions and doing it at real speed are 2 totally different things.

anyway, I'm rambling again so I'm done

Kathy (Coldwater, Mich.): Who do you think would have a good inside presence that would be available in free agency or the draft that Joe Dumars might be interested in?

Langlois: Boozer will be the best of the free agents. It’s not very likely the Pistons would get any immediate help in the draft, but two players who could be available when they pick are DeJuan Blair of Pittsburgh and B.J. Mullens of Ohio State. Blair is more ready to play, while Mullens is bigger and might have a higher ceiling – and a lower floor.

Ugh.

Damn straight I'll complain.

IMO our debate (Mxy) comes down to what you believe is the #1 factor in player development. Either the team is responsible for the player improving or the player is responsible for improving.

IMO the #1 thing is the player's individual drive to succeed/adjust to the NBA.

Kobe Bryant wasn't the best player in the Draft the year he came out of High School - dude worked his ass off to be this fucking good. I doubt that if he spent all these years in Charlotte he'd be a vastly different player - he just has that animalistic drive to succeed.

Kevin Garnett spent all those fucked up years in Minnesota - wasn't close to being the best guy that Draft at the time. Looking back on it now he was drafted too low at #5 because he had that drive to succeed. Yeah, he had McHale and other people helping him - but every player has people helping him.
Not all people are created equally. Chauncey Billups had a lot of good people helping him -- Pitino, D'Antoni, Flip, Prick -- but it took some time and some LB for him to get really good in this league. Not everyone can have a pro baller for a dad like Kobe did. Especially when you're drafting outside of that top 10 or so, you're drafting players with flaws in their game that they may not be able to fix all by themselves. Their talents may have been obscured by coaching situations that weren't so hot.

Pitino helped him?

Pitino helped him quickly move to another team after picking him at #3. :)

So we're locked in at #15. We probably moved up a spot or two by losing to the Bulls last night, so there's your silver lining.

re #69, not so fast, my friend


Report: Syracuse guard Flynn to sign with agent

by FOXSports.com
Updated: April 14, 2009, 10:08 AM EST

Syracuse point guard Jonny Flynn will sign with an agent, a newspaper reported Monday.

Flynn, a 6-foot sophomore, said last week that he planned to enter his name in the NBA draft but had not yet hired an agent. However, The Post-Standard in Syracuse reported Flynn is expected to sign with Leon Rose, the agent for NBA star LeBron James.

Attempts to reach Flynn, his family and Syracuse coach Jim Boeheim were unsuccessful.

Flynn averaged 17.4 points and 6.7 assists per game as a sophomore. He set a school record by playing 1,418 minutes in the just-concluded season.

If he does not sign with an agent, Flynn would retain the ability to remove his name from the draft by June 15.

Syracuse juniors Eric Devendorf and Paul Harris previously had said they will also enter the draft.

Players currently slotted at #15 in various mock drafts (keeping in mind that most of these mocks don't take team needs into consideration):


NBADraft.net
Jonny Flynn, 6-0, 186, PG, Syracuse (comparison: Damon Stoudamire, http://www.nbadraft.net/players/jonny-flynn)



DraftExpress
Same, Flynn



InsideHoops
Al-Farouq Aminu (SF, 6-9, 215, Freshman, Wake Forest, 13.0ppg 8.4rpg) (comparison: Deng/SAR, http://www.nbadraft.net/players/al-farouq-aminu)



Chad Ford
James Johnson 6-8 235 SF Wake Forest (comparison: Andres Nocioni, http://www.nbadraft.net/players/james-johnson)

This is from DX about Jonny Flynn, but if you didn't know better, you'd think it was about Will Bynum (both listed at 6'0", too).


STRENGTHS:
- Ability to get to free throw line
- Mix between scoring/passing
- Scoring instincts
- Ability to create own shot
- Ball-handling skills w/either hand
- Change of gears/Hesitation moves
- Lateral quickness
- Aggressiveness
- Confidence
- Potential
- Winning mentality
- Level of competition
- Ability to create for others
- Court vision
- Conditioning
- Excellent first step
- Explosiveness
- Low center of gravity
- Mid-range Jumper


WEAKNESSES:
- Dominant ball-handler
- Efficiency
- Out of control at times
- Shot-selection
- Turnover prone
- Ability to contest shots
- Ability to fight through screens
- Commitment to playing defense
- Average wingspan
- Undersized
- 3-point shooting percentages
- Relies too heavily on outside shot

DX compares Jonny Flynn to none other than EARL WATSON

Not possible if he's really not "committed to playing D"

DX also has Aminu compared to Josh Smith and Johnson compared to Ryan Gomes.

I want no part of Ryan Gomes.

So, a weakness of Flynn is 3-point shooting percentages?

Then I hate the next weakness: Relies too heavily on outside shot.

If he can't shoot from the outside why does he rely on it?

If he's great at getting to the line and his mid-range jumper is sweet why is he relying on his outside shot?

I don;t wanna draft this guy - dude is dumber than a fucking door stop.

IF you can get to the hole and you have a sweet mid range jumper then DON'T fucking settle for 3's.

BTW, if he's good with the ball in his hands (Ability to create own shot, Ball-handling skills w/either hand, Ability to create for others) why does "Dominant ball-handler" appear as a weakness?

Do teams not want a dominant ball handler?

Or

Do they mean the fucker hogs it?

We need a Center or SF, nothing else. That will probably change with trades but we don't know what will happen. I also doubt PG becomes a need at all even after trades.

Pharaoh, they mean he dominates the ball by keeping it to himself, not he's dominates opponenets when he has it.

We need a Center or SF, nothing else. That will probably change with trades but we don't know what will happen. I also doubt PG becomes a need at all even after trades.


We need the best player available, regardless of position - if that means PG then draft the kid and make a trade later.

We should be able to get a solid rotation player in this Draft - everyone will say it's a weak Draft but we are picking in the middle of the first round and you know there will be decent guys available. I just hope they pick the right one.

I haven't done any Draft research yet - haven't had time. Is anyone on top of their research for the Draft?

If there is anyone on this forum who is can you please call Joe and fill him in cause you know our scouts are fucking useless.

And Zekyl - thanks. I thought they meant he was a ballhog but wasn't sure.

At this point I'm hoping for DeJuan Blair or Stephen Curry.

K, don't you think drafting Blair is too much duplication with Max? Maybe even Amir?

other than them both being 6'6," exactly what does Blair have in common with maxiell?

if you want to compare him to another undersized NBA big, compare him to paul millsapp.

How many young PFs (undersized in the case of Blair/Max) does a team need?

Don't forget Sharpe too, who won't be a SF, if he pans out, IMO. (Not saying Sharp is undersized, necessarily.)

how about some good ones?

And is Sharpe isn't a SF, then he won't pan out.

Blair is a guy that will be starting material in the NBA. Max is a backup.

Judging every big man by his height is stupidity. By that logic, we'd never draft charles barkley because we already have jason maxiell, and every big man under 6'8" is all the same.

That's quite a leap.

Comparing Blair to Barkley is equally as stupid, IMO.

Wow, if we can get a guaranteed starter in the middle of the draft, fucking pull the trigger. I'm shocked he may fall that far.

I know some (like Pharaoh) are very consistent in thinking "always take the best available player", but duplication is a real problem, IMO. Just as it was this year with Rip/Stuckey/AI.

I promise there are no sure starters at any other position.

I've liked Blair since he wrestled the ball from Thabeet...oh and Thabeets arm came with the ball and Thabeet basically went over Blairs back to the court.

We need toughness in the middle

Blair is not bigger, quicker, longer or more of a complete player than Max.. don't be fooled by the weak competition (ie not close to NBA talent)... just trade the goddamn pick... this draft sucks.

http://www.hecklerspray.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/fonzie.jpg

Why worry about duplication when you are a borderline Lottery team?

We need talented players. If we happen to draft a PG and he happens to be better than Stuckey or Bynum then we make a trade.

Same thing if we draft a SG.

We need TALENT - you don't pass on the best guy available because yu have somequality player already. You take the best guy and hope they can play together or make a trade

I can go along with that to an extent, but trading Max might be difficult in this economic environment with that shiny new contract.

While I'm a proponent of roster balance, the flexibility that Joe has this summer might make that less necessary when considering moves because he has the ability to re-balance on the fly pretty easily, except maybe for Maxiell.

My comments have nothing to do with Maxiell (though I know you guys were debating him v other undersized bum) it's one of my Draft Rules.

Rule:

1: Draft Best Player Available
2: Forget About Needs
3: Forget About Roles
4: See Rule #1

Use this year as the scenario. According to many (and I stated as much too but am taking it back now) we shouldn't draft a PG. Now we're discussing not drafting a PF, or at least an undersized PF. Tomorrow we'll discuss not drafting a SG.

Fuck - how about we just say it right now: we want Joe to draft a C or SF and that's it.

WTF? So we eliminate all other options because of our current roster? That roster could change before the rookie even plays a game.

If we take the best guy available at some point in time it's gonna pay off.

You don't pass on Michael Jordan because you have Clyde Drexler. You don't pass on Kobe Bryant because you have Eddie Jones, you don't pass on Tim Duncan because you have David Robinson (imagine if the Spurs drafted Keith Van Horn!) etc etc

Best Playe Available - work out the deph chart later

I was drunk and trying to be sarcastic here, but I'm so glad to see it's spawned this great talk.

Mock updates (#15)


DraftExpress -
DeJuan Blair PF/C
19 years old; 6'7"; 265 lbs.
Pittsburgh, Sophomore


NBADraft.net-
Stephen Curry 6-1 180
PG/SG Davidson Jr.


Chad Ford-
Donatas Motiejunas (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?playerId=19306&draftyear=2009)
18
PF
(http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/position?id=6&draftyear=2009)7-0
220
Lithuania (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/school?id=3003&draftyear=2009)

What about James Johnson? Is that the guy? SF, I think.

Saw a thing on Eric Maynor too - is he any good.

I've still done no research for the Draft (just like our scouts lol)

what is a guy worth at 15 in a weak draft? whats the point of another useless bench player, just trade the pick!

Steph Curry to declare today

And Morey in Houston is talking about buying his way into the 1st round (for some odd reason). I bet Joe would take that call.

And Morey in Houston is talking about buying his way into the 1st round (for some odd reason). I bet Joe would take that call.
Sell our first for cash when we can trade it?

Just more cap room for Joe, if he wants it.

Interesting stuff from DX...


Picks turning down money means college hoops hits lotto

Gary Parrish of CBS Sportsline, like many NBA executives we’ve spoken with this week, can’t believe how many top-shelf players have decided to go back to school this year.

It's unclear whether they love school, hate money or simply believe the best route to maximizing their long-term potential as a basketball player is to spend one more year on campus. Anyway, the bottom line is the same: The projected lottery picks who are returning to school at an unusual rate have simultaneously killed the 2009 NBA Draft and enhanced the star power of the 2009-10 college basketball season.

That's the story of the week.

Seems like every day somebody is delaying millions.

First Ed Davis confirmed he will return to North Carolina, which was followed by Kansas' Cole Aldrich, Georgetown's Greg Monroe, Wake Forest's Al-Farouq Aminu and Oklahoma's Willie Warren each also promising to spend at least one more season in school. Add it up, and what we have are four -- and perhaps five, depending on what you think of Aminu -- near-certain lottery picks now off the table. And when you consider that fifth-year high school star John Wall has repeatedly insisted he won't try to enter the draft despite the presence of a loophole that could make it possible, what that means is that as many as six of the top 15 or so prospects who could be in the 2009 NBA Draft won't be in the 2009 NBA Draft.

Which is good news for Jordan Hill.

And bad news for the franchise that has to take Jordan Hill third.

"I want to say that people are looking at Blake Griffin and seeing how much he improved himself [by returning for his sophomore season at Oklahoma]," said Jonathan Givony, president of DraftExpress.com, a website dedicated to thoroughly covering the NBA Draft from all angles. "That might be it. But more than anything else, it's probably just coincidental."

More from DX...

-DeShawn Sims (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/DeShawn-Sims-5503/), Junior, Michigan- May test the waters as a junior since he has nothing to lose.

-Raymar Morgan (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Raymar-Morgan-1139/), Junior, Michigan State- Rumored to be considering entering the draft

-Kalin Lucas (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Kalin-Lucas-5308/), Sophomore, Michigan State- Tom Izzo indicates that Lucas will likely be back.

-Manny Harris (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Manny-Harris-5047/), Sophomore, Michigan- Announced he’s returning to Michigan for his junior season.

Interesting stuff from DX...

Which is all the more reason to move Max and Amir with picks for legit big men on teams needing to clear cap space.

Ricky Rubio officially in.

Trade the picks - all of them.

Our scouting department has proven to be fucking useless
we get more cap space
we trade them for proven players

What's not to like?

Eleanor (Huntington Woods, Mich.): Would the Pistons draft Davidson guard Stephen Curry since he is projected to be around the 13th pick?

Langlois: They’ll be picking 15th, Eleanor, because they have the worst record of the 16 playoff teams in the field. If Curry is still on the board, he’ll be a consideration because of the long-range shooting he could provide. A lot can happen during the evaluation process, but as of today I would expect somebody would take him before 15.

An article on Yahoo was discussing guys in the Draft and that guy James Johnson (?) I mentiond the other day got a decent review by a "scout" (they didn't identify the scout so for all I know it was Tahoe's opinion. Tahoe posts are everywhere)

Is this dude any good? Or do you guys not watch college ball?

I have an excuse cause there ain't no coverage of NCAA on free TV here in Aussieland. Why can't you guys throw out some names of guys you've seen on TV that were good? If yo don't wanna look foolish then check some sites t get info that could back you up.

Mxy - please help me -does your super stat site do Draft stuff?

I'd go to http://www.draftexpress.com as a starting point.

I haven't really paid much attention to NCAA ball since the Fab Five, except for this year a little because the Final Four was local. I can appreciate it when I watch it, but it's not something that stirs my soul.

Oh, well in that case thanks for nothing. I've already been to DX (I find it funny that they went with that)

I just thought you might have some numbers to back up certain guys that have been mentioned, since you are THE stat guru but it's cool.

I'll just continue to stumble around like a Piston Scout.

see what I did there?

There's some other interesting work in terms of historical correlation of NCAA statistics to NBA statistics -- thought I posted this before, but maybe not:

http://www.hoopsdaily.com/content/how-do-ncaa-statistics-translate-nba

The Fab Five turned me off NCAA ball for the most part, though. The style over substance thing just didn't do it for me the way it did for so many others, and the revelations afterwards... ugh.

http://www.nbadraft.net/2009mock_draft

Ty Lawson

For the rest, there was good news out of Spain on Tuesday, when 18-year-old point guard phenom Ricky Rubio announced he's declaring for the 2009 draft. Although Rubio's contract buyout with his Spanish team, DKV Joventut, will be complicated, it couldn't be more painful than meandering through several more non-playoff seasons without a dynamic point guard. And it doesn't end with Rubio. While many NBA teams are in cost-cutting mode, one place they're sparing no expense is European scouting. Among the point guards drawing the most attention overseas are Brandon Jennings and Spaniard Carlos Cabezas.

At least one NBA executive who is expected to have a top 10 pick is extremely high on Syracuse's Jonny Flynn. Others are so high on Rubio that it wouldn't shock them if he went No. 1 overall; that's right, ahead of Oklahoma's Blake Griffin. As we've seen in the playoffs, power forwards are a dime a dozen in today's NBA. The real value is in the point guard who delivers 10 dimes a night and the most valuable of NBA commodities: playoff wins.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/11661504

Rubio is a fucking legend before he's even played a single game.

Darko part two? I don't know anything about him BTW.

He looks like Nash from the highlights I saw, but puts a little more effort into defense.

Nash and Maravich are the two comparison that everyone makes.

Rubio =/= Pistol Pete. Besides they are white and have a mad dribble. Nash is a much better comparison if we must choose a white guy cause that's what we do.

Curry in for sure now...I think

Lawson & Ellington have a presser at 2:30

No fuckin' way does he compare to the Pistol... obviously these cats are too young to recall what Maravich could do... I'm pretty certain we'll never see those type of skilz again in our lifetime... truly worth a peek.

I remember him, but if a players did some of the shit he did back then, that player would be called a hot dog. I'm trying to dis Pete...I loved the guy, but some of that awesome shit he did belonged in and1

so we're basically locked into the #15 pick, right?

i still say this draft is weak overall especially at the top. but given the number of underclassmen who have declared, i think we MIGHT be able to get a pretty nice impact player at #15.

there's still time and several big names could still go back to school. but a number of them will not. and that makes it a deeper draft and increases our chances for getting a good player at #15.

nobody who is going to turn the franchise around, but we can get someone capable of really helping if things go right.

I'm seeing Blair from Pitt in a lot of mocks. He's essentially a better rebounding version of Max, right?
We have 3 picks in the 2nd. Any chance those get traded? We have like the 6th and 8th picks in the 2nd round, along with ours. I could see packaging one or all of them to move up and get another 1st, or possibly pairing one or more with out own 1st to move up higher - but this year's draft seems pretty crappy.

I wonder if teams will covet 2nd round picks, since they're basically draft rights without guaranteed contracts, right?

Blair is the real deal, imo. He would bring that toughness back to interior D that we dont' have. He can't do it by himself, but he can be a great compliment defender.

So would you say he's an Elton Brand clone?

^ Thats a lil more like it for me, but doesn't have some of the offensive moves that Brand has at this point.

Blair is 6'6". Why would we want him? Brand is 6'9" or 6'10" at least.

Toughness and game.

Blair will eat Maxiel, if that helps the description. He might even replace Max on the front page.

LMAO - Mola's band should replace Maxiell on the front page.

Why are we pimping our disappointment?

That's fucking stupid.

Blair is 6'6". Why would we want him? Brand is 6'9" or 6'10" at least.
lol, no. Brand is about 6-7, if that.

Wiki, NBA.com and ESPN.com all have him listed at 6'9"

Doesn't really matter, he's probably a couple inches taller than Blair.

Ben Wallace was also listed at 6-9. Listed numbers don't mean a thing...

You're missing the point entirely. Blair is listed at 6'6" right now. I think we can all agree that when numbers are "off" that the player is listed as taller than he really is (taken in shoes, whatever the reason). I've never seen a guy listed shorter than he really is.

So, Blair is 6'6" tall at best. Agree?

Max is also 6'6" at best. No way do I want two PF's that size on this team.

If we make some moves to get a true center and Max is gone...I consider Blair.

Sheed and KG are both listed at 6 11", and are 7 foot in shoes (which is what NBA measurements are). But I usually see short bigs listed taller than their height.

Again, if you take Blair, that means one of them is starting (I assume Max given he's not a rookie). Since our centers are currently Kwame, Amir and probably Dyess...are you happy with that kind of size? We have no post player.

Since the centers that will be available for trades (like Chandler) are probably not great post players, we would need a solid post player at PF...not an undersized PF like we already have.

Again, if you take Blair, that means one of them is starting
I'll disagree here.

We're still doing the dumbass "tall thing"... it's "standing reach" that gets it done (Brand's 7' 5" wingspan)... hops, quickness, skills and instincts provides the rest for the impact around the rim.

I don't know about Blair, but Brand has some long-ass arms.

Max actually does, too.

But I'll still take height, vertical and long-ass arms any day.

If Ty Lawson or Curry fall to us, I say we take them, and move Stuckey to Sg. Rip can be moved to another team for some frontcourt help.

I'm still not sold that Curry is going to be a quality NBA PG, but otherwise, I'm game for that plan as long as the big we get for Rip is primo.

Blair is mean, I thought Max was but where was he when Shaq douched Stuckey?

I don't remember Max getting into 1 shoving match this year.

Max is an undersized career back up and has been from Day One.

The fact we drafted him is the problem, especially when you look at who was picked after him.

Instead of getting someone who could possibly be a starter down the road, or a "potential star" we drafted the most "Piston-like" player available.

I said it was stupid on the day and got slammed.

We should not be contemplating repeating that mistake.

From RGM's mock...

http://realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/wiretap/team/det_40.gif
15. Austin Daye
Combo Forward. Gonzaga

His lack of athleticism and slow physical maturity will hurt him in the NBA initially and is why he should stay at Gonzaga for his junior season, but he has all of the natural skills and instincts to become everything Jared Jeffries couldn't at the next level. He has an excellent inside/outside game, both in the post and shooting off the dribble.

From RGM's mock...

http://realgm.com/images/nba/4.2/wiretap/team/det_40.gif
15. Austin Daye
Combo Forward. Gonzaga

His lack of athleticism and slow physical maturity will hurt him in the NBA initially and is why he should stay at Gonzaga for his junior season, but he has all of the natural skills and instincts to become everything Jared Jeffries couldn't at the next level. He has an excellent inside/outside game, both in the post and shooting off the dribble.

Barf. And I like the sig, Glenn. A buddy and I are always dying of laughter from those commercials.

I just used ESPN's Lottery thing and the Wizards got lower than the #3 pick 6 out of 7 times.

Anyone think they retain the pick at #3 or #4, considering their tax situation?

Stephen Curry may already have a promise from the New York Knicks that they will take him with the 8th pick, according to NBADraft.net

Dude must be able to shoot it, plays little D and is undersized at his primary position.

2 out of 3 will get him drafted by the Knicks.

Pharaoh, are you saying he plays defense? 2 out of 3 includes shooting and undersized, so I don't know if you're saying he plays D or you just don't know about that part of his game yet. I don't know his rep on the defensive end. I've never heard a word about anything but his shooting.

I think he's saying that he doesn't play much D.

"he plays little D" as opposed to "he plays a little D"

:little tony:

I took it as those 3 things are what the Knicks look for and Curry has 2 of them.

I meant that those are the qualities NY look for and any pick they make must meet 2 out of 3.

I have no idea on Curry - your guess is as good as mine on his D

NBADraft.net now has us taking

James Johnson (http://www.nbadraft.net/players/james-johnson) at #15

I like that pick, based on his bio. Guy sounds like a solid player. Not going to be a superstar, but he'll be a solid backup for Tay and could develop into a starter in time.

i really like johnson. i think i mentioned him when we were having another discussion on the draft or offseason somewhere....

he's a granger type guy IMO and is as tough as nails. he can play some PF but he's really a SF and he can score in a variety of ways from all different spots on the floor. he's still developing but i think he's going to be a guy a lot of people overlook......until he's hurting them a couple years into his nba career.

I read his bio on Draft Express and thought he'd be a good pick.

At least he's not undersized.

If he can play both positions at a reasonable level and has range then Joe might fall in love with him. If he's got no 3 point range at all we might look elsewhere.

i wish the nba was like the nba- those 3 second rounders could easily be traded for a high pick in the nfl. but in the nba where high picks have even greater value and roster spots are at a premium, no such deal would happen.

But a team looking to shed guarenteed $$$ could look to trade out of the first round, use those 2nd rounders on Europeans and leave those guys in Europe.

Would save some tax $$$ plus the salary you don't pay the player.

Highly unlikely we trade for a late first rounder, though

good point. although IMO any pick past about 20 is almost worthless this year. guess we'll see but right now very few of these kids in the 2009 draft intrigue me.

Those Euro-stash picks are more dangerous these days because the Euro teams have almost as much $ as NBA teams do now.

WTF does a team care? They only wanna dump their first, not draft quality Euros to bring over later

I completely disagree. Scola was a Euro-stash pick and he's turned out pretty darn well, granted not with SA because he couldn't reach an agreement with them but they weren't just drafting to save money on him. Same with that PF that was drafted last year, I don't remember his name, but he's a solid prospect that the team really wants to bring over but his euro buyout is in the way.

Memo? Stashed him for a year or two and that turned out great (yes, he was a 2nd rounder).

I don't think the Spurs brought Flop over the year they drafted him.

Some teams draft them to save money, but some teams legitimately want to give them another year in Europe then see if they have a potential stud.

Donna (Southfield, Mich.): I like the idea of the Pistons getting younger. For the draft, I really like DeJuan Blair. I think he’s going to be a better rebounder and scorer than Max. I’m curious about Joe’s attitude toward picking up a foreign player or two in the second round. Has the Darko experience eliminated the thought of going Euro?

Langlois: Blair’s numbers at Pitt in two years were significantly better than Maxiell’s at Cincinnati, both overall and especially over Max’s first two years, particularly in rebounding. While Maxiell averaged 7.0 rebounds a game at Cinci, including a career-best 7.7 as a senior, Blair averaged 11.0 boards a game in his two years at Pitt, including 12.3 as a sophomore before declaring for the draft. Since scouts are pretty unanimous in their belief that rebounding numbers most reliably translate to the NBA, Blair should have decent NBA numbers. The question with him will be his ability to score and defend inside, lacking the explosiveness of Maxiell, when he’s probably only an inch or so taller than Maxiell. It’s true the Pistons have not drafted a European since taking three of them, Darko and Carlos Delfino included, in 2003. But with three second-round picks and, most likely, an interest in stashing at least a few of them internationally for a few seasons, there seems a decent chance they’ll select a European this summer. Of course, the international crop is also deemed weak this year, but the Pistons haven’t made scouting internationally any less a priority.

http://blog.mlive.com/fullcourtpress/2009/05/wizards_insider_washington_sho.html

In my scenario the team giving up the first doesn't want Europeans. They don't want anyone from this draft class. The whole point of giving up the first is to save money.

Once they make the deal who gives a flying fuck what they do with our second round picks? Let them draft a bunch of Euros. Good for them. They could draft me and I wouldn't give a shit.

But after reading as much as I can about this Draft and I have not found 1 article saying that this is even a good draft! So if it's that bad then we should be looking to trade our picks to get out of the Draft and get a capable player via trade.

OR I'd offer the picks to guarantee we get the guy we want (like Lawson, Johnson or someone like that)

I still say if you can move into the top 5ish without giving up too much, go for it. If you're looking at moving into 6-10, its probably not worth it unless you're just giving up bench fodder and a 2nd rounder.

Can't wait for the Lottery to be determined.

It will be interesting to see where Washington is picking.

If they drop that should cause a serious spike in articles related to them trading their pick. As long as we're linked to that I'll be happy.

At #3, #4 or #5 I believe we can get a quality player. Dude might not be an All-Star but he should become a quality starter...

Or is that expecting too much from this Draft?

The problem with moving up...


Jay (Detroit): Having three second-round picks to go along with the 15th, how high up could the Pistons trade? Would it be high enough so they could get a guy like Ricky Rubio, James Harden or DeMar DeRozan?

Langlois: I’m not sure they’d want to, Jay. Let’s say they traded up to No. 3. They’d have a cap hold of about $3.5 million for that pick as opposed to the roughly $1.5 million they’d have by staying at 15. That would give them $2 million less in free agency, which could be the difference in signing a second quality free agent. And there just isn’t a player at No. 3 that most scouts feel is good enough to make that type of commitment.

LLTP - OUT.

But there was the article that I talked about last week saying that if Washington got the #2 and weren't going to get Griffin, they'd trade the pick instead of taking Rubio. Plus their supposed interest in Rip. That cap hit would be worth it if you got a franchise PG (sorry Stuckey, you'd be a combo guard)

With Blake Griffin considered the only sure-fire top pick, many regard this year's draft class as one of the worst in recent memory.

One Eastern Conference president took the assessment one step further.

"This could be one of the worst drafts ever," said the president. "Of course, we're coming off two pretty good drafts."

Spanish point guard Ricky Rubio and Connecticut's Hasheem Thabeet are considered by many to be the best options after Griffin.

Rubio will be good with the right system/coach. If he's asked to set up the offense, push the ball, and not shoot too much until he works on his shot, he'll have time to develop.

Jay (Detroit): Having three second-round picks to go along with the 15th, how high up could the Pistons trade? Would it be high enough so they could get a guy like Ricky Rubio, James Harden or DeMar DeRozan?

Langlois: I’m not sure they’d want to, Jay. Let’s say they traded up to No. 3. They’d have a cap hold of about $3.5 million for that pick as opposed to the roughly $1.5 million they’d have by staying at 15. That would give them $2 million less in free agency, which could be the difference in signing a second quality free agent. And there just isn’t a player at No. 3 that most scouts feel is good enough to make that type of commitment.

LLTP - OUT.

The bolded part tells me that Joe is going for Boozer or bust this off-season.

We're worried about $2 million because it could mean the difference? How?

You spend as much as $9 mil on a big, $7 on a swingman and the extra 2 nets us Harden (for example)

How does it not work out?

Unless you know the main free agent is gonna cost a lot more than $9 million. And how many free agents are out there that could demand more than $9 million?

Boozer and WHO?

Fuck me! I don't want Boozer here - that's the stay the course shit we don't need. Rebuild Joe. Rebuild!

What big are you targetting for 9mil and what swingman for 7? Not saying its not possible, I agree with the concept. I'm just curious who you're looking at.

With that scenario, you get Harden, you get someone like David Lee for 9mil (a little bit much for him, IMO, but that's probably about right) and 7mil for maybe Williams from ATL? Or you tempt Childress back to the American game and hope ATL doesn't match. I'm not sure what swingmen are out there. For 7mil, he'd better be a starter or have a huge role off the bench though. A 7mil backup for Tay isn't going to get much court time.

the Utah owner talked about the Jazz not beeing tough enough, he said he thinks Booozer is a marquee player, but he had concerns about Boozer defense & leadership....yikes

Sounds like Boozer wants to exercise his option but the Jazz don't want him to.

so anybody thinking about the wizards and the #5 pick yet?

Sounds like Boozer wants to exercise his option but the Jazz don't want him to.

Yeah, they're shooting themselve in the ass by talking about Boozer's downside in public... makes other GMs say "oh, yeah I want to spend 10M for a defensive liability without leadership skilz"

I'll stick by the "opt in" prediction.

What big are you targetting for 9mil and what swingman for 7? Not saying its not possible, I agree with the concept. I'm just curious who you're looking at.

With that scenario, you get Harden, you get someone like David Lee for 9mil (a little bit much for him, IMO, but that's probably about right) and 7mil for maybe Williams from ATL? Or you tempt Childress back to the American game and hope ATL doesn't match. I'm not sure what swingmen are out there. For 7mil, he'd better be a starter or have a huge role off the bench though. A 7mil backup for Tay isn't going to get much court time.

What big? Every free agent big not named Carlos Boozer lol

What swingman? Should have said perimeter player. Someone young.

Now that Washington got the #5 pick:

Is it possible we give up a second round pick and collect Haywood and the #5?

Who would we take?

Griffin goes 1, Rubio @ 2, No O goes 3, Hill goes 4? Harden for us?

Would we be able to start him (assuming we traded Rip somewhere for a big)?

Would he mesh with Stuckey and Bynum and AA?

Would they give away that pick and Haywood for a 2nd? I don't think so. They could get something back in return for it that's more valuable than a 2nd for sure.

Name it, Clevelander, keeping in mind the salary-shedding goal.

Word has it that Phoenix is very interested in DuJuan Blair at #14.

Sorry Tahoe.

I don't want Blair anyway. He just looks like the next Corliss to me (a good scorer around the basket, but does he have a true position?)

He's a 4/5, not a 3/4. His true position could be PF for sure. And he rebounds much better than Nasty.

:chad:

New mock:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2009/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=MockDraft-090519

Detroit
http://assets.espn.go.com/i/nba/draft2009/headshots/19214.jpg
Austin Daye (http://insider.espn.go.com/nbadraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2009&playerId=19214)
Position: SF
Height: 6-10
Weight: 190
Age: 20
School: Gonzaga

Analysis: The Pistons will begin their summer makeover in the draft. They'd love to add a dominant low-post scorer, particularly a center, but they aren't likely to find anyone who fits the bill.
Blair could fit because of his nastiness in the paint, but the Pistons just gave a similar player, Jason Maxiell (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=2775), a big contract, and it's no secret that they are looking long and hard at Carlos Boozer (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=1703) and Paul Millsap (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=3015), both of whom have the opportunity to leave Utah.
Daye could be the most talented player left on the board at this point. Adding him to the squad would be a move for the future, as he has the potential to be great someday. He has a pure game but needs to get stronger and more assertive.

^Sounds like Tay

He's an inch taller and a few pounds lighter, I believe. So we'd be subbing a beanpole in for a beanpole. Tay has worked out pretty well for us, so I'd be okay with this pick, depending on what else is available. We could finally have a backup SF with some potential to be a future starter.


NBADraft.net (which doesn't have him in their 2009 Mock)

NBA Comparison: Marcus Williams (longer)

Strengths: An extremely versatile player, who at 6-10 has great height and length for the SF position … He is more than comfortable handling the ball in transition, as well as attacking off the dribble on the perimeter … Possesses a nice mix of skills with his back to the basket, including fadeways to both shoulders, mini hooks and up and unders … Has great patience when attacking, he reads the defender then either uses a well timed shot fake or a spin move to get himself in better scoring position … Out of the triple threat is where he is most effective; people have to play him tight because of his shot and this allows him to use his long strides and good jabs to get into the lane … Shooting the ball is where he is the most effective and dangerous; he has one of the nicer release in all of college basketball … He is able to knock down outside shots with his feet set and he is just as comfortable shooting pullups from midrange going to either hand … He has a slight fade on his shot, combining that with his long arms and high release, it makes his jumper virtually unblockable …

Weaknesses: He needs to add substantial weight and muscle if he is to ever reach his true potential … His explosiveness is mediocre (as a leaper he is fairly limited and his first step is only average) … Even though he has an extremely soft touch, he still struggles finishing in traffic because he cannot absorb contact … He is easily thrown off balance and forced into tough shots by stronger defenders … At times, he dips the ball pretty low on the catch, which allows the defenders to close out on him … If he is challenged and forced to rush his shot, his efficiency decreases … Needs to gain consistency on his shot, he goes through droughts and this causes a downward spiral for his entire game since most of his moves rely on shot fakes and his ability to attack out of the triple threat … He is somewhat passive, seems so take what the defense gives him and he tends to settle for outside shots rather than using his length around the basket … He needs to work on his off hand as he becomes predictable attacking to his right far too often …


All of the bolded parts in Weaknesses seem like they'd be fixed by getting stronger. Not necessarily bigger and bulkier, but just pure strength work can help his explosiveness and keep him from being knocked around as much.

SI.com has him listed at 6'11" 200lbs. Also, they have us taking B.J. Mullens - 7' 245lb C from OSU. I don't think I like that. Granted, he's a project that's supposed to have a ton of upside, but just look at his numbers.

20.3 mpg
8.8 ppg
4.7 rpg
1.1 bpg

Is that what you want from your mid-round pick? If this was 2005 and we still had an elite team and he was going to be sitting on the bench behind Sheed, Ben, McDyess and learning/developing, then go for it. Right now he'd be on the bench behind Max, Amir, and Kwame.......

Austin Daye = Bron appetizer

He's a 4/5, not a 3/4. His true position could be PF for sure. And he rebounds much better than Nasty.

But he has the same size as Nasty/Max. Maybe he plays bigger, but he's certainly not a 5. He has to play PF basically %100 of the time. We simply don't have room for a PF.

Now if Max and Amir both go in trades with Tay/RIP for none PF's, then I'd consider him.

Barring trades I wouldn't touch him.

You said he didn't have a position. Now he has to play PF 100% of the time. Sorry, I got lost there somewhere I guess.

You said he didn't have a position. Now he has to play PF 100% of the time. Sorry, I got lost there somewhere I guess.

I asked if he had a true position. You said he can't play SF, which I agree with. he's too short to be a center. That means he has to play PF %100.

All that says is the only position he can play is PF. That doesn't mean I have faith that he can be a starting PF in this league. It just means he's probably limited to one position if he pans out and I'm not sure he has the size to do it full time. Max is taller and he's not a starting caliber PF either.

Ok, I'll disagree on not playing any center, but I don't want him anyway.

Ok, I'll disagree on not playing any center, but I don't want him anyway.

You think a 6'6.5" guy can play center? I don't. He has the length to make up for taller PF's (6'9"-6'10") guys, but he'll get abused by anyone close to 7 feet tall.

You think a 6'6.5" guy can play center? I don't. He has the length to make up for taller PF's (6'9"-6'10") guys, but he'll get abused by anyone close to 7 feet tall.


Glen Davis measured 6-7. He plays some 5. Similiar body, style, and strength.

Ben Wallace was 6'7.

i love j-max as an energy guy and a 15 minute sub. but blair is in a whole different class than him. he is a much better player.

and i'm sorry- we're not at the point where we can say 'well, we already have *insert name* and *" "* at that position, so let's draft someone at another position.'

we need TALENT, regardless of the position. we need the best players available. then we can worry about the depth chart later. or we can trade from a position of 'strength'.

we are in desperate need of young talent, so while i'd prefer to get talent at the position of greater 'need', we simply need to get the BPA IMO. blair would easily be 10 times better than any C at #15. and probably a lot better than anybody else at #15 period. (if he were to fall there obviously)

so that would be an easy choice for me.

Who's to say that Blair is the best talent left on the board? Maybe one of those small forwards has equal talent. I like the idea of Austin Daye, just make him work on his strength a ton in the offseason. Doesn't mean he'll get huge, just better at banging bodies. That's essentially what Tay did. He's still thin as a rail but he can bang around a little bit and doesn't get destroyed by contact. Yes, I know he can't guard the big guys like LeBron as well, but in all honesty, who can? He's at least got the length to play off them a bit and still get a hand in their face, and Daye is 6'10" and long so eventually he could learn to do the same thing.

Or James Johnson should be there at #15.

I agree with Higher Warrior though - you pick the best guy available regardless of position.

That's the fucking rule. It's not hard to understand or explain.

In a situation where 2 players are "equal" go big. Bigger guys that can play are harder to find, right?

^esp considering how weak this draft is

Technically, Johnson and Daye are taller than Blair.....

No shit.

blair definitely would be the best left at #15 IMO as i don't think there are more than a handful of guys better than him. and i don't see ANY small forwards period who could be better than him at #15 or anywhere really.

daye? nice 2nd rounder in my book, i don't care where the scouts rate his stock. he couldn't even emerge at gonzaga so i don't see the comparison to prince at all. prince was an established star at kentucky. yeah maybe their physiques are similar but if the kid can't stand out in college, i have to really question how you think he'll somehow do it in the nba against bigger, stronger, more athletic men...?

as for johnson- i'm on the bandwagon and not coming off. that kid can play and he's a top 10 talent IMO. he'll be forgotten about because of the 'potential' and the measurables of all these other kids. but he's a mean, talented kid who will have a long successful career in the nba IMO. i'd take him in a heartbeat and hope we get that chance.

I watched a couple of James Johnson reels, reminds me a little of Josh Howard.

Well, then it's settled #15 = James Johnson.

I doubt Blair lasts on the board that long and do we really want another PG.

(Wipe that smirk off your face Glenn - Joe said Stuckey is the PG but will also play off the ball. Deal with it)

There are rumors that Rubio doesn't want to play for Memphis or OKC, that he would prefer to play for the Clippers or Kings.

The Grizzlies are rumored to be leaning towards Thabeet at #2.

:chad:


a couple of teams think the Thunder might be willing to trade down in the draft. Two league sources said the Wizards and Thunder already had discussions about a swap of the No. 3 pick for the No. 5 pick and the Wizards' 2008 first-rounder, JaVale McGee.

The Wizards want Rubio but would settle for Thabeet if he's the one who falls. The Thunder would get a long, lanky shot-blocker in McGee and then could get another guy they like, Arizona State's James Harden, at No. 5.

:chad:

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7894/fordq.jpg

Hmm but why is $25 million the magic number?

There are rumors that Rubio doesn't want to play for Memphis or OKC, that he would prefer to play for the Clippers or Kings.

The Grizzlies are rumored to be leaning towards Thabeet at #2.

That's dumb. He'd have good scoring wings to feed (Durant or Gay). It must just be a market issue, but if so why would he want to go to the Kings then?

Hmm but why is $25 million the magic number?
25 mil is enough for two impact players (Bosh, Boozer, Lee, Amare, etc). 19 mil cuts it pretty close (if both want 10 mil). Plus once you factor in #15 and possibly Dice, you might only have 15 mil to get those two players. If you start at 25, you have 19-20 mil in order to add two big men.

That's dumb. He'd have good scoring wings to feed (Durant or Gay). It must just be a market issue, but if so why would he want to go to the Kings then?
Climate? Sacramento > Oklahoma, I'd assume.

If he's worried about the Climate in OKC or Memphis than he's a pussy and is going to be a bust anyway.

I'm guessing that he'd rather "compete" with Beno for playing time than Westbrook.

I would agree with that. Doesn't Memphis have a couple young PG's too?

When you're looking at job opportunities, don't you take the physical environment of where you're working into account? I don't think it makes him a pussy to want to live in Cali instead of Oklahoma. If I had a job opportunity in Cali and one in OKC, I'd probably want the Cali job.

I highly doubt that's the main focus of his reasoning. I was just tossing it out there as an idea. The PG competition Glenn brought up makes much more sense. Couldn't Westbrook be moved to off guard? I swore I read that right after the draft lottery.

when I'm a top 3 draft pick I hope I get the best playing situation possible. I say screw the city, worry about the best playing situation possible. especially a foreign person who may never have even been to the US. you want the most PT you can get so you can become a FA and play where you want to after a few years. It does no good to go to a nice city, not develop and never get that choice after a few years.

He's needs to make quick and big $ to help pay off that Euro buyout.

He probably knows that he's going to be locked into that rookie contract no matter what, so playing time is what is going to allow him to strike it rich with contract #2.

Or maybe Rubio thinks that in Cali he has more endorsement opportunities and that is how he's gonna pay for his massive buyout?

Anyway, I just noticed something and now I'm more worried about our cap space:

Every single time I see a story about how we're gonna use our space I not only always read about Boozer I read about us signing a guard or forward, too.

And the names mentioned for that other forward spot suggest small forwards, not power forwards.

Why? Why do we need another guard or SF? If we got a quality big to team with Rip, Tay and Stuckey doesn't it make more sense to sign another big man? Why the mention of a SF or guard?

And why do we now need $25 million? $19 mil is plenty, unless they are hell bent on giving Boozer $12 million.

Like I stated elsewhere: as much as $9 million for a big, $4 million for Dice, $2 million is the draft pick, $4 million on the Birdman (which is apparently a good choice and relaistic lol)

So we have $9 million to buy a PF and every single free agent big not named Boozer can be had for that or less IMO.

So again, why the fucking problem?

Are they planning on giving Boozer $12 mil and Gordon $9 mil and that's why we need the extra $6 mil (to keep Dice and pay for the pick)?

What kind of fucking team are we gonna be with Gordon on the bench? Dude is gonna be pissed he's not starting. And how many minutes will Bynum get if we have Stuckey, Rip and Gordon? What about Afflalo? Dude won't play at all, unless he's gonna back up Tay?

And after spending big money on Boozer we now have Dice on a 1 yr deal, Kwame and Amir expiring and Maxiell on his bullshit extension. It's possible that after next season we are left with Boozer and Maxiell and are forced to use the MLE on a big.

Why not get that other big this off-season with the space? FUCK!!!!!!!!1

yeah i read that story at ESPN where supposedly we're looking to trade the #15 and a player like amir to try and free up a couple more million in cap room, to go after 2 big FAs.

said it before and i'll say it again- if we think we can add a couple of pieces to this team with tay and rip still big players for us.....we're kidding ourselves. we need to gut this team and trading those 2 is 100% necessary IMO. i think they have done what they can and they simply have nothing left to offer us as we move forward.

both can still play- don't get me wrong. but they are eaten alive on a regular basis by younger more athletic players who can actually handle the basketball and create their own shots- unlike tay and rip.

REBUILD JOE! don't try any bandaid fixes- we need major surgery!

I agree to a certain extent. I tried to find deals that got us an upgrade at SF and I couldn't find one. With Rip we have several options, either via trade or free agency.

I believe the team needs a fundamental shift - the game has past us by

I think Joe is thinking of a starting unit like this:

In the backcourt would be Stuckey (slasher) and another guy like Ben Gordon. He can handle the ball to some extent and can slasher, but he's also a capable 3 point bomber.

At SF we'll have Prince - he's still a quality defender (he does well against everyone not named Lebron or Paul Pierce).

Up front I don't think Joe is looking for a "traditional" C - I think he wants someone that can hit a 15 footer but that can board and play good D. The guy doesn't have to be a star or anything - just capable of the role.

Unfortunately Boozer seems to be our man at PF. I have no idea why.

Off the bench comes Dice (on a 1 year deal), a 3 point shooting swingman, Bynum, AA and Maxiell plus our Draft Pick.

I don't know where Rip goes or how Joe figures to get his "dream" done but I think that's what he's looking for.

What about, instead of Boozer, moving Rip to the Wizards for Jamison? He can stretch the D and hit the boards. Pick him up, sign Gordon, then look for another big to pair with him?

What about, instead of Boozer, moving Rip to the Wizards for Jamison? He can stretch the D and hit the boards. Pick him up, sign Gordon, then look for another big to pair with him?

I think that might have been really possible if the Wiz had won the lottery.

With them sitting at #5, they can't even get Thabeet.

I think they need Jamison now.

But they're looking at trading up right now. Wasn't that them? Trading up to 3?

Jamison is 33 years old and makes $13 mil a year. The Pistons would be idiots to trade for him right now.

i've never liked jamison's game. but maybe that's just me.

How long does his deal run for?

2012.

Not that it matters. We just dealt a 30+ all-star making that kind of cash because we wanted flexibility. We are not going to get another one back.

I'd really like it if Joe fleeced Washington in a Rip for #5/Nick Young/slug deal.

Mike (Broadview Heights, Ohio): I was wondering with the trade rumors going on with Rip, is it possible we could get the fifth pick from the Wizards for him?

Langlois: The fifth pick in a bad draft for Rip Hamilton? First of all, it’s an impossible trade. The Wizards are way over the cap. They can’t take on salary without sending back salary. Second, and maybe Flip Saunders would feel differently about it, but Hamilton and Gilbert Arenas doesn’t feel like a compatible backcourt to me unless Gilbert is serious about becoming a more traditional point guard. Third, there’s a reason the Wizards are shopping the No. 5 pick: In this draft, many teams feel they are just as likely to land an average starter with the 15th pick as with the fifth – you’ll just have to pay a lot more to take him at No. 5.

Solid take by KL.

If they moving the #5 pick it is either to move up into the Top 3 or to move down and possibly out of the first round.

I know we're looking at free agency and seem to be totally shitting on the Draft but ...

Would anyone be willing to trade our 3 second picks for #5? It comes with a likely salay slot of more than $3 mil...

You won't Griffin, Rubio or Thabeet but there are some guys in the next 3 or 4 that should be quality starters in the league.

I would certainly do that deal. Where are we going to find PT for 4 rookies anyway? Plus, I have no faith Joe will get good players late in the draft. Sure, we found Memo, but otherwise the late drafting hasn't gotten us anywhere.

I'd rather have one solid player than the 3 sleepers that may or may not ever see the floor here.

Plus you can get a guy like Harden that allows you to move RIP for a big.

i'd love to, but i don't see any team taking that trade. even with the fact that teams might want to get out of round 1.

some team might actually.....you can stash the 2nd round guys....there's no cap hold on them. It's us who wouldn't do it.

Question for the salary cap gurus, this has bothered me for a while:

Say you are a team under the cap, and you sign FAs to bump the payroll to near the cap. Can you buy (trade for) unsigned 1st round picks, sign them and move the payroll over the cap? If you can, do you have MLE to spend after that, given you are now over the cap?

I would presume the cap hold would come with the drafted player and you could not just add him and go over the cap. The MLE is assuredly a no go.

I believe you need to be over the cap by July 1st meaning you couldn't sign a free agent to get over the cap. A cap hold also doesn't equal cap space otherwise a team like Detroit would have the midlevel based on the bird rights they have from Sheed and AI.

I'm pretty sure most GM's wouldn't put themselves in a situation where they are say, $2mil under where they likely would only be able to resign Bird, Early Bird Players and minimum contracts.

If you are under the cap, you don't get the MLE. The MLE is granted like the first day of FA perdiod. You either have it or you don't. It doesn't get granted 5 days in after signing FA's.

You can renounce your cap space and claim the MLE. Teams do this when their cap space is less than the value of the MLE but I don't think there is a rule that says you can only do it if you have less than the MLE in cap space.

If you have more than the MLE in cap space, why would you want to do that? You could sign someone for MLE-type money and just not spend anymore if you wanted.