Prior to last night, I was thinking he was a lock to be back next year, but after that pathetic rebounding performance and if they get boo'd off the Palace floor after getting eliminated, why would Joe wait and bring him back as a lame duck?

We'll be stuck with Coach Michael Curry either way I think, either next year or the year after that, when Flip's contract is off the books.

I honestly dont care myself. Maybe i'm starting to care less about basketball, but i dont care if he's here or not. In fact i reserve my judgement until the results of this series are finally in.

would curry make a difference? wouuld he imprint REBOUND into everyone's heads? what we need is a tweak in our team mentality, we need a winners mentality..the one that doesnt think losing one game on the roads fine, being down 2-0 is okay because weve pulled through before(against worst teams.) however our teams been through alot of success as it is so...

sheeds my favorite piston, top 5 in the league right now, but I think he's gotta go, only because we know Dice isnt going to

Is Avery Johnson still job hunting?

I'm going to go out on a limb here.

I think the current Detroit Pistons team is done. Completely. No matter how they perform this year, even if they somehow manage to take home a championship, this is the end of the road for this team as the perennial playoff contenders they've been for the last 6 years or so.

I think Joe's biggest mistake was not the one where he went up to his neck with Darko. His biggest mistake was re-upping Chauncey with a fat-ass contract.

People like to say that the Pistons live or die on whether or not Sheed showed up to play, but I think we all realize that's not the case. Truthfully, Sheed's attitude has never been in question, despite all the hype about him. The real key factor here is and always has been Chauncey's lackadaisical attitude toward everything and how that attitude shapes the team. Are you winning? "No big deal." Are you losing? "No big deal."

I can assure you that, with all of the other problems the Celtics have (and they have plenty), they also have Kevin Garnett. I have watched KG for a long time, and can tell you that Kevin Garnett does not have the same attitude as Chauncey Billups. He's a lot like Chauncey in many regards - he's the prime mover of the team, the person who's really in a position to shape how his team plays the game. The difference is that KG does care if he's losing and is going to shift into gear to take care of business when he's called on to do it. Chauncey is going to smile, nod his head, agree with the coach fully, and then go ahead and do whatever he feels like doing anyway.

I know as well as the rest of you that Stuckey isn't the PG Moses who's going to lead this team to the promised land. With Chauncey's half-dead ass firmly in place for a few years, this team can't even afford a map, let alone a sherpa. There's no way that this team moves forward without continuing to build around him. Names we've all come to know will have to go away or retire, but Chauncey will stay, and that's going to make the inevitable retooling take so much longer and be so much more painful when it finally happens.

I'm probably going to be labeled as a Chauncey-hater, but whatever. You could call me stupid if I said he didn't have enormous talent. But if you put all your money on a guy who insists on doing everything completely unconsciously, you're putting your money on a guy who honestly does not know why some of the things he does win games and why other things don't. Joe has given up science for trial-and-error, and as Chauncey ages, the effects of the errors are going to become disastrous.

/end rant

good post swami

Yes, he should be. Flip may have done a lot of good things here, but our offesnsive execution has always been terrible down the stretch. He's horrible in late game situations. How can we have the game close and keep chucking contested threes with the shot clock winding down? Have you ever thought about posting Sheed in that situation? What about posting Billups? At least he'd draw a foul instead of trying to create contact behind the arc (just because that worked once doesn't make it a good plan). And why wait until you are down 15 in the 4th to bust out the press? mix it in at other times.

We've been bailed out a lot by Billups hitting a key three down the stretch, but that has little to do with an offensive plan IMO.

And if Billups doesn't run the plays Flip calls, you bench him (in the regular season to send the message). IMO it's Flip's fault if the offense is being run poorly. Quit being a panty waste and stand up to the players.

It's odd that the national media (ESPN, at least) have actually been praising Flip on his coaching in the playoffs.

Maybe they don't WANT us to fire him?

And if Billups doesn't run the plays Flip calls, you bench him (in the regular season to send the message). IMO it's Flip's fault if the offense is being run poorly. Quit being a panty waste and stand up to the players.
If Flip goes up against Chauncey, Chauncey wins. Simple as that.

Swami, do you think that if we had a coach that forced Chauncey to do thing more his (the coach's) way and benched Billups for Stuckey if he didn't, that it would negate some of Chauncey's liabilities?

i dont think i've seen Billups post up once vs Rondo in the low post this series...well its nothing new, Mr. Inconsistent should leave with Flip, underperforming vs inferior opponent PG can't get you through the ECF

DE: Not at this point, no. Chauncey has had his way for a long time and is very used to it. Not really sure any coach is going to have much of an impact on him. That's poison when you've got young talent you're trying to cultivate.

EDIT:

underperforming vs inferior opponent PG
Story of Chauncey's life, dude.

Thanks for the sig addition, Swami.

The coach doesn't loose that battle if Joe is behind him. If I'm interviewing for Flip's job (supposing he was canned), I tell Joe that the pieces are there, but they haven't been used right since LB left. I'd talk about Sheed floating, Billups not posting and Tay not getting enough looks. I'd tell him that is my plan up front and that I need his backing to instill these changes. If Joe says no, I wouldn't want to coach there anyway.

I wonder if a guy like Avery could instill these things. It seems like he's not afraid to make changes he thinks are needed. The problem is that Cuban did not see eye to eye with him. Joe would have to be behind him.

Avery is the only option out there who would be an upgrade to Flip

A lot of legitimate criticism being leveled at Chauncey in this thread but not once has the effect of the hamstring injury been mentioned. No, it's not an excuse. It is a factor though. Whether you figure it's mostly mental as a lot of commentators have said first time hamstring injuries can be or physical or some mix of the two, it is making him tentative and throwing off his jumper.


this is the end of the road for this team as the perennial playoff contenders they've been for the last 6 years or so.

Disagree completely. The core of this team will be just as likely to bust out another 50+ win season and a coin-toss to lose a series vs any opponent with a superstar next season as this season and the one before and the one before that.

Perennial contenders. Perennially frustrating. Piston DNA.

The problem isn't the personnel, it's the mentality IMO. Keep the switch on all the time (in the playoffs) and I'm not sure they can be beat in a series.

A lot of legitimate criticism being leveled at Chauncey in this thread but not once has the effect of the hamstring injury been mentioned. No, it's not an excuse. It is a factor though. Whether you figure it's mostly mental as a lot of commentators have said first time hamstring injuries can be or physical or some mix of the two, it is making him tentative and throwing off his jumper.



Disagree completely. The core of this team will be just as likely to bust out another 50+ win season and a coin-toss to lose a series vs any opponent with a superstar next season as this season and the one before and the one before that.

Perennial contenders. Perennially frustrating. Piston DNA.
I understand, and I agree that his injury should be taken into account, but I just happen to believe the problem is bigger than you think. No disrespect.

I understand, and I agree that his injury should be taken into account, but I just happen to believe the problem is bigger than you think. No disrespect.

None taken. As I said, the criticism is legitimate. I agree with a lot of it, your own assessment included. It just seemed to me the discussion was incomplete without a mention of the injury.

I think Flip has improved, and it's difficult to tell if the pussy-ish rebounding effort this team gives regularly has anything to do with him or not. Does he practice and emphasize boxing out?

What I hate is his "take what the defense gives us" offensive philosophy. it's such a pussy-ish offense that is reliant on jump shots only. I don't think everything wrong is Flip's fault, but I think people (in particular Joe) over-estimated how much this team can "self-coach", at times we expect the players to do things that most players in this league don't do, things that are the job of a coach. I don't need a hardass, I just need someone with a strong offensive philosphy, who will help preach an inside-out offensive game, defense, and rebounding.

I don't think Flip will be done but the roster will be done.

I think Flip's contract is a major issue.

If you aren't going to fire him, you almost need to give him an extension.

If you think they players don't listen to him now, wait until he's on the final year of his deal.

I don't know...if the roster changes, they might start listening to him.

I don't know...if the roster changes, they might start listening to him.

Fire might shoot out of my ass, too.

Hey, it might.

Problem in this series hasn't been flip, it's been the players.

Flip has pressed every button imaginable. He's tried every strategy.

He's losing because his players simply aren't showing up every night, and that has to change.

He's losing because his players simply aren't showing up every night, and that has to change.
Don't you think that is, at least partially, a Flip problem?

Not necessarily a problem of his doing, but a problem with him continuing as the coach.

If they lose game 6 on their home court, it is not going to be a pretty sight at the Palace, do you really think they'll have him back?

It's a team problem, just like it was in 2006 and 2007.

The difference is, Flip is at the bottom of the list of offenders, instead of the top.

Don't you think that is, at least partially, a Flip problem?

Not necessarily a problem of his doing, but a problem with him continuing as the coach.

If they lose game 6 on their home court, it is not going to be a pretty sight at the Palace, do you really think they'll have him back?

Why wouldn't they? They bring the same starters back every year.

Well, you know how this goes in pro sports, if the team isn't responding to the coach, you can't fire the team.

I agree that the players not responding to him is on the players, but it doesn't change the fact that it's easier to try and find a coach that they will listen to than it is to get rid of all the players.

Why wouldn't they? They bring the same starters back every year.

We're not talking about a franchise that has been shy about changing coaches, here.

Problem in this series hasn't been flip, it's been the players.

Flip has pressed every button imaginable. He's tried every strategy.

He's losing because his players simply aren't showing up every night, and that has to change.
That's why I do think it's Flip's fault. Ultimately questions about motivation fall on the coach. If you can't get your guys to play hard every night, it's your fault. Especially when they have shown they are good enough to win it all.

Flip has established that hustle does not directly relate to playing time. Max was 6 for 6 and played his butt off. What happens in game 5? 11 minutes for Max. How many times have we seen Flip and Hayes out there chucking 3's when other bench guys are playing harder? You can't tell me those players fear that going through the motions has any ramifications outside getting eliminated from the playoffs (which only means they play with their backs against the wall).

On the contrary, it's going to be impossible to find a coach they will listen to.

Flip at the very least is a good X's and O's guy. There's no sense in bringing in a hardass that nobody is going to listen to anyway.

Didn't Max get 3 quick fouls, though?

I agree with Kstat

also I think Joe would look around at the options and not be all that excited to make a move

Glennn #31...Thats true.

But maybe they'll think that its not the coach, its the players this time. Maybe it would send a message to the players that its them, not the coach. And I wonder if the coaching changes over the years has given cover to the players. Maybe thats why they don't listen...or it seems they don't.

But, I agree, that ^ has not been their track record.

That's why I do think it's Flip's fault. Ultimately questions about motivation fall on the coach. If you can't get your guys to play hard every night, it's your fault.

That's not even remotely true.

These are grown men. If you can't get motivated for the CONFERENCE FINALS, no coach is going to do it for you.



Flip has established that hustle does not directly relate to playing time. Max was 6 for 6 and played his butt off.

...and did not effectively defend in the halfcourt, nor did he box out worth shit.

Yes, he played really hard, and was still played behind theo ratliff because he couldn't defend garnett straight-up.


What happens in game 5? 11 minutes for Max.

....which had nothing at all to do with the fact he couldn't stay out of foul trouble....nope...


How many times have we seen Flip and Hayes out there chucking 3's when other bench guys are playing harder?

Really? Which playoff games in this series or the last did Flip send Javis out there?

For that matter, when did Maxiell and Jarvis play the same position?

Problem in this series hasn't been flip, it's been the players.

Flip has pressed every button imaginable. He's tried every strategy.

He's losing because his players simply aren't showing up every night, and that has to change.
So when we won the players showed up and when lost they didnt? I dont buy that logic. The players made him put theo out there? They kept him from adjusting to what was happening through that stretch? As much as LB gets torched for putting tay on tim duncan, flip doesnt get a pass on his own rotation faults. The "Poor Flip has tried everything, but these horrible players wont listen" angle is is hypocrisy for anyone whose praised his coahing in our wins..

I've been fair with Flip all playoffs, gave him credit in our wins, didnt hold back criticism in our losses. You can't have it both ways Kstat, you hop in when we are giving flip praise on his coaching this playoffs, can't say he's exempt from get the same chunk of blame too.



Yes, he played really hard, and was still played behind theo ratliff because he couldn't defend garnett straight-up.
No one has. Outside of dyess on a couple possessions. I'm not worried about kg getting his honestly. And the funny thing is that he has no trouble scoring on theo, so i dont get where he's a better option if he's getting dunked on and maxiell is atleast stopping kg in spurts.

Didn't Max get 3 quick fouls, though?

Well, he only had 3 fouls total. He got his third foul with 9:24 left in the half. He played 5 minutes in the 3rd and not at all in the 4th.

Well, he only had 3 fouls total. He got his third foul with 9:24 left in the half. He played 5 minutes in the 3rd and not at all in the 4th.

Because we were getting crushed on the glass and Maxiell was only making it worse.

He wasn't rebounding well in game 4 either. He simply made so many spectacular plays it offset the fact he wasn't making any solid ones.

No one has. Outside of dyess on a couple possessions. I'm not worried about kg getting his honestly. And the funny thing is that he has no trouble scoring on theo, so i dont get where he's a better option if he's getting dunked on and maxiell is atleast stopping kg in spurts.

1. Theo is the only reserve that's made KG work at all for points.

2. Theo actually boxes out on occasion.

3. Theo gets an offensive rebound every now and then.

Jason maxiell had not had an offensive rebound in FIVE GAMES. RODNEY STUCKEY IS OUT-REBOUNDING HIM.

Yes, he does the cannonball thing and makes plenty of spectacular plays.

He also makes no fundamentally sound plays at all. Fans don't notice it, because they only notice what ESPN shows them. But it drives coaches insane.

So if theo and maxiell are coming out equal on the boards(theo wasnt boxing out consistently his damn self), then why is theo a better option?

That's not even remotely true.

These are grown men. If you can't get motivated for the CONFERENCE FINALS, no coach is going to do it for you.

It doesn't matter. It still falls on the coach. he sets the game plan, the tempo, the mentality. If the coach can't motivate players, why do they bother giving speaches at all? You can't make someone not hungry suddenly want the title. But you can stress that you have to play every night. And if he does it and they don't play hard then he needed to send the message before. It's too late in the playoffs.




....which had nothing at all to do with the fact he couldn't stay out of foul trouble....nope...

Which had nothing to do with the 2nd half.


Really? Which playoff games in this series or the last did Flip send Javis out there?

For that matter, when did Maxiell and Jarvis play the same position?

As I mentioned before, you set the precident in the regular season. Flip never rewarded hard play before, the precident was already set.

Well I for one am speculating that Joe might just think that they will listen to Michael Curry more than they listen to Flip.

Joe has had a MANCRUSH on Curry for years, and he sure looks like the hand picked successor to Flip to me.

Flip didn't even get a say in his hiring as his assistant.

Joe let Phoenix talk to Porter, but wouldn't let Curry talk to Paxson.

Just connecting the dots here.

1. Theo is the only reserve that's made KG work at all for points.

2. Theo actually boxes out on occasion.
1.) bullshit...you are watching a different game because i doubt anyone else saw theo making things hard for kg. maybe he gave kg a woody when he put his nuts in theo's face on the dunk.

2.) then so does maxiell if its like that...lol


K, you obviously are playing this like flip is bush and you're tahoe. because i see there will be no flaw in him as far as you see it

I just don't believe that "You have to hustle and play hard" coming out of a different mouth would make any difference at all.

I just don't believe that "You have to hustle and play hard" coming out of a different mouth would make any difference at all.


Of course not.

But we need a scapegoat, and we can't blame our heroes, can we?


K, you obviously are playing this like flip is bush and you're tahoe. because i see there will be no flaw in him as far as you see it

Uh huh. That's why I roasted Flip last year. Go ahead and look it up.

I just see the situation for what it is: The only guys in this series maximizing their potential are Flip and Rip. The rest of the team has failed both of them.

It's already become a chicken in the egg type argument. These players have the ability to tune out their coach. Flip has become a coach who can be tuned out by these guys. Personally I think he's been better these playoff in terms of adjustments and being pro-active. I don't know if he should go, but if he should, I think a few players have to go too. It's not just one or the other, it would be a situation that just doesn't work anymore and a deeper change necessary.

Or is it the beer talking....

Of course not.

But we need a scapegoat, and we can't blame our heroes, can we?
well flip is your hero so thats ironic. But flip getting fired doesnt mean its all his fault, sorry you get that feeling from it. Carsisle was all at fault when he got fired nor was the drama queen LB.

-Max entered the game with 3:09 left in the first (for Dyess)
-KG has no points during that stretch until he is replaced by Brown
-KG re-enters game at 10:27 in 2nd
-Ratliff enters for Max at 9:21 in 2nd (3rd foul on Max)
-KG puts up 9 points and 4 rebounds in last 9:21 of half.

-Max enters for Sheed at 5:26 in 3rd
-KG hits 21 foot jumper and no rebounds in 3rd (while Max is in there)


So when did he light up Max?

Uh huh. That's why I roasted Flip last year. Go ahead and look it up.
unfortunately i remember it fairly well, you roasted him under the pretense that the players go with him if he's fired. if we kept our core and fired flip i doubt you'd find that ok.

Also you're being selective a majority of your talk bac then was deflect the flip hate to the players, these days you're deflecting everything to the players now it seems.

If there's anybody that should be gone, Sheed should go, and send Maxiell packing with him.

I have no doubt there's a GM or two out there that will not notice his horrid fundamentals and overpay for him. Get rid of the spaz to create room for Amir Johnson, who can actually grab an offensive rebound more than once in a playoff series, and play defense when he isn't trying to make a desperate block from behind.

Speaking only for myself, I don't care what any one of US thinks about Flip (although personally, I'm really indifferent to him.)

I'm just trying to read the tea leaves here and figure out what Joe's move will be, keep him or fire him.

What do you guys think Joe is thinking?

to reiterate before i go from this premature discussion. I think the players and flip share the same amount of blame for losing as they do for winning. There are no excuses. I also think that they've played harder and flip has coached harder than they ever did in his tenure. But all hate and love aside, we lose and theres nothing wrong with firing Flip and keeping the players. Thats how it works in this league. avery Johnson doesnt have a job, D'antoni is out of phoenix. Not Dirk, not Josh, Not Kidd, Not Stoudemire, Not Nash, and Not Shaq. and these teams underachieved far lower than we ever did.

If there's anybody that should be gone, Sheed should go, .
so you're repackaging the same deflection you put together last year when the heat was on Flip? good luck with that, can't even begin to go back and forth with that recycled agenda.

Speaking only for myself, I don't care what any one of US thinks about Flip (although personally, I'm really indifferent to him.)

I'm just trying to read the tea leaves here and figure out what Joe's move will be, keep him or fire him.

What do you guys think Joe is thinking?

Hard to say, cuz we don't know what, if anything, JoeD has been telling Flip. Play Amir? Don't use small ball lineup? Change this rotation? Cuz if Flip isn't doing something JoeD wants him to do and we lose, Flip might be a casualty.

IMO, assuming we lose, Joe has come to realization, that its the players. So I don't think Flip goes.

It's already become a chicken in the egg type argument. These players have the ability to tune out their coach. Flip has become a coach who can be tuned out by these guys. Personally I think he's been better these playoff in terms of adjustments and being pro-active. I don't know if he should go, but if he should, I think a few players have to go too. It's not just one or the other, it would be a situation that just doesn't work anymore and a deeper change necessary.

Or is it the beer talking....
Ding ding ding! :cogent: x1000!

If you have a coach who can't get through to your players, and players who won't listen to the coach, what the hell do you do?

You carefully look at the situation and make a pragmatic call. You don't punish the person you think is to blame. You make the best decision you can make for the team's success going forward. You don't concern yourself with justice. You concern yourself with winning.

I will say this again: You do NOT hunt out the responsible party and chase them out. That is a childish, bullshit way of looking at the situation. A lot of history goes into making that player-coach relationship what it is, and it is a waste of any manager's time to delve into that petty garbage and pin blame.

If Tim Duncan never listens to what his coach says, replace the coach. Tim Duncan has a zillion rings. He produces consistent championship results. But if Carmelo Anthony doesn't listen to his coach, he's obviously got himself a fucking problem.

I don't have enough observable history to have a clear idea to know what Joe will do in a situation like this. But I believe that if he's intelligent, he will take a pragmatic approach and not an idealistic one. And while it remains to be seen whether or not drastic change is going to need to be made, I believe the pragmatic approach in this case would be to start dealing starters.

Care to address this Kstat?:


-Max entered the game with 3:09 left in the first (for Dyess)
-KG has no points during that stretch until he is replaced by Brown
-KG re-enters game at 10:27 in 2nd
-Ratliff enters for Max at 9:21 in 2nd (3rd foul on Max)
-KG puts up 9 points and 4 rebounds in last 9:21 of half.

-Max enters for Sheed at 5:26 in 3rd
-KG hits 21 foot jumper and no rebounds in 3rd (while Max is in there)


So when did he light up Max?

And I sortof agree with you on moving Max (depending on what you get and how you solve the center spot). If we moved Sheed for a different center, I wouldn't be opposed to moving Max if the deal is right and the players complement each other right. I don't think Amir/Max is a good C/PF combo for the future unless Amir can put on enough muscle to guard Howard, Bosh and the other good bigs that Max is too short to guard.

If you have a coach who can't get through to your players, and players who won't listen to the coach, what the hell do you do?

You carefully look at the situation and make a pragmatic call. You don't punish the person you think is to blame. You make the best decision you can make for the team's success going forward. You don't concern yourself with justice. You concern yourself with winning.

I will say this again: You do NOT hunt out the responsible party and chase them out. That is a childish, bullshit way of looking at the situation. A lot of history goes into making that player-coach relationship what it is, and it is a waste of any manager's time to delve into that petty garbage and pin blame.


IF we get bounced, I think Joe has to come to the realization that our run (with the current big 5) is basically over. we have a decent bench this year, and have avoided the injury bug, mostly. There isn't any excuses for a loss. Blame the players, blame the coach, they are all to blame including Joe.

I'd probably gut the team if I were Joe. Keep RIP, Tay and Stuckey. Possibly Max and Amir (depending on what they may net in a package for a better big). I'd be happy with Billups, Sheed, Dyess and Max gone for a very good young big (of a Howard/Bosh caliber) and good role players or picks.

Most times condenders completely fall off the map for a while. We could probably rebuild like the Lakers did after trading Shaq. They had a bad year with Kobe/Odom/Butler(hadn't made strides yet) and junk, but then bounced back pretty good. We don't have Kobe, but Stuckey/RIP/Tay/Amir/(big from trade) is enough to keep us afloat in the east for a year. We might get bounced in the first round but could be back contending in another year or two.

It's better than riding this out for 4 years when Billups, Sheed and Dyess are completely done and we have no replacements.

Most times condenders completely fall off the map for a while. We could probably rebuild like the Lakers did after trading Shaq. They had a bad year with Kobe/Odom/Butler(hadn't made strides yet) and junk, but then bounced back pretty good.

The Lakers didn't bounce back. They simply fleeced the Grizzlies. Which kills me by the way. What would it have taken for the Pistons to get Gasol? The best Spanish team sports player in history on my hometown team....

It would have taken Jerry West being a former Piston.

The Lakers didn't bounce back. They simply fleeced the Grizzlies. Which kills me by the way. What would it have taken for the Pistons to get Gasol? The best Spanish team sports player in history on my hometown team....
They weren't title favorites without Gasol (this year), but they were back in the mix. I doubt Brown or Crittenton would have been much of factors (taking back the trade). But they are also without Bynum.

They were 30-16 prior to Gasol playing. He definately made them the favorites, but you can't say they wouldn't be playing the Spurs right now with Bynum's 15 and 10 replacing Gasol's 18 and 8.

I considered them fully rebuilt into contenders prior to the Gasol trade. They still had some tinkering with role players to do but the core was already good enough to win. Gasol just made them better.

As they say here: oofff I find it hard to agree with that.

Bynum is a really good big man. But they got a super offensive talent in Gasol. With Bynum alone and even healthy they aren't where they are right now. Gasol opens the floor, commands double teams and can even pass out of them. With Bynum Odom does not have the chance to shine like he did last game (and check out Gasol's pass to him from the top of the key).

Gasol completes the triangle. He's a big man who can play facing the basket, with his back to the basket and can look for passing lanes. Bynum alone just cannot do that. But I'm an ex-pat Catalan homer so I guess that should be taken into accoiunt.

Edit: And next year they get BOTH Bynum and Gasol which is even more what I was talking about.

With Bynum and no Gasol they still beat Denver. I think they still beat Utah (in 7) as well. I do think the Spurs would take them out now without Gasol though.

To me, that still makes them contenders. Gasol makes them favorites. Gasol and Bynum make them paper champs next year.

EDIT- probably everyone but Denver and Houston (with no Yao) were considered contenders going into the playoffs. I think LA would have been in that same category as the Suns with Bynum instead of Gasol.

I'm going to go out on a limb here.

I think the current Detroit Pistons team is done. Completely. No matter how they perform this year, even if they somehow manage to take home a championship, this is the end of the road for this team as the perennial playoff contenders they've been for the last 6 years or so.

I think Joe's biggest mistake was not the one where he went up to his neck with Darko. His biggest mistake was re-upping Chauncey with a fat-ass contract.

People like to say that the Pistons live or die on whether or not Sheed showed up to play, but I think we all realize that's not the case. Truthfully, Sheed's attitude has never been in question, despite all the hype about him. The real key factor here is and always has been Chauncey's lackadaisical attitude toward everything and how that attitude shapes the team. Are you winning? "No big deal." Are you losing? "No big deal."

I can assure you that, with all of the other problems the Celtics have (and they have plenty), they also have Kevin Garnett. I have watched KG for a long time, and can tell you that Kevin Garnett does not have the same attitude as Chauncey Billups. He's a lot like Chauncey in many regards - he's the prime mover of the team, the person who's really in a position to shape how his team plays the game. The difference is that KG does care if he's losing and is going to shift into gear to take care of business when he's called on to do it. Chauncey is going to smile, nod his head, agree with the coach fully, and then go ahead and do whatever he feels like doing anyway.

I know as well as the rest of you that Stuckey isn't the PG Moses who's going to lead this team to the promised land. With Chauncey's half-dead ass firmly in place for a few years, this team can't even afford a map, let alone a sherpa. There's no way that this team moves forward without continuing to build around him. Names we've all come to know will have to go away or retire, but Chauncey will stay, and that's going to make the inevitable retooling take so much longer and be so much more painful when it finally happens.

I'm probably going to be labeled as a Chauncey-hater, but whatever. You could call me stupid if I said he didn't have enormous talent. But if you put all your money on a guy who insists on doing everything completely unconsciously, you're putting your money on a guy who honestly does not know why some of the things he does win games and why other things don't. Joe has given up science for trial-and-error, and as Chauncey ages, the effects of the errors are going to become disastrous.

/end rant


Good to see Swami come over to the dark side of pistons fans that think chauncey billups is a severely overrated basketball player and one of the main reasons this team doesn't win past the first 2 rounds of the playoffs.

It's ok to not like a current player on the roster, I hated Jerry Stackhouse, Michael Curry and Flip Murray with burning passions because they were a detriment to team success.

Anyway, Chauncey has been bad for quite a few years now against the good teams in this league. I don't hate chauncey but he's not as good as people think and he's becoming a player that shouldn't be playing if his shot isn't falling. He doesn't make anyone better by being in the lineup (as a point guard should) and can't defend quicker point guards (which means he can't defend just about anyone else in the NBA including sloths like Andre Miller).

His presence also makes it more difficult for the better players like rasheed and tayhaun to find their scoring opportunities because he doesn't create shot opportunities for anyone other than himself and is too slow to consistently get in the lane (which is why stuckey is a better option at the moment and why tayshaun and rip play much better with him in the lineup).

Injury be damned, Chauncey just isn't that good.

We need leadership change both on the bench (flip) and on the floor (chauncey) as well as a legitimate 4 or 5 that can board and eliminate high percentage shots and the second chance points this team has given up consistently since Larry Brown left the team (and flip began sitting ben wallace in the 4th quarters in exchange of antonio mcdyess).

I like mcdyess because he plays real hard but he's a back-up in this league. When he plays big minutes it becomes it becomes obvious that his presence contributes greatly to one of the main reasons this team doesn't win against good teams, they give up too many points near the basket and have trouble rebounding the basketball (2 things that LB always preached against). Mcdyess always seems to make guys like dalembert and perkins seem like NBA all-stars.

Anyway, this has been my 2-cents all year.

I think CBill and RW could get us a ton in return in a trade.

CBill cuz I don't like him that much, and RW just to throw a carrot out there cuz everyone wants him gone.

I used to love Chauncey, but he has frustrated the Hell out of me the past 2-3 seasons. As a result, I myself have been pulled over to the "dark side".

If Rip doesn't play tomorrow, Dumars will have an excuse to keep Flip another year...

If we lose tomorrow. I want Avery ASAP, not Michael Curry, not Terry Porter, give me Avery Johnson.

My buddy and I sat here and watched Billups dribble crucial time away at the top of the key with all his antics and all his waving here and pointing there and ended up not doing shit with the possession. He wasted possession after possession last year.

He's lucky he's not here right now or I'd shove him.

He's lucky he's not here right now or I'd shove him.

No, you wouldn't. :p

The Pistons can be explained quite simply.

They were never really that great. They were the benefactors of playing in a very shitty conference, thus getting automatic byes to the ECF and being called a great defensive team(which they weren't, considering their sleepy slow style and feeble competition). After a questionable title - fans & players sipped the Joe Dumars "team basketball" kool-aid(which was really LSD) and hung onto his every scrotum hair.......errr word. Then year after year of Detroit losing and being exposed as frauds, and year after year of bad acquisitions by Joe D(Arroyo, Darko, Delfino, Maxiell, Theo, Mo Evans, Nazr) the fans and players(especially a certain seven foot chucker with a drug problem) blamed everyone for their shortcomings: the refs, superstars, David Stern, coaches, tired legs, LB possibly leaving, etc. Never have I seen an organization(fans, media, players) worship an exec. like the Pistons have with Joe Dumars.

The overachievement party is just about over.

Easy for you to say that now that your Lakers are in the Finals. :p

I didn't read all 8 pages of this thread, but I'm not answering this "If A, then B?" question because the A part just isn't happening.

The Pistons will win game 6.

Easy for you to say that now that your Lakers are in the Finals. :p
pretty much

My buddy and I sat here and watched Billups dribble crucial time away at the top of the key with all his antics and all his waving here and pointing there and ended up not doing shit with the possession. He wasted possession after possession last year.

He's lucky he's not here right now or I'd shove him.
I'd pay to see the ass whooping that would ensue from that. it would actually be like this. :VOLCANO:

The Pistons can be explained quite simply.

They were never really that great. They were the benefactors of playing in a very shitty conference, thus getting automatic byes to the ECF and being called a great defensive team(which they weren't, considering their sleepy slow style and feeble competition). After a questionable title - fans & players sipped the Joe Dumars "team basketball" kool-aid(which was really LSD) and hung onto his every scrotum hair.......errr word. Then year after year of Detroit losing and being exposed as frauds, and year after year of bad acquisitions by Joe D(Arroyo, Darko, Delfino, Maxiell, Theo, Mo Evans, Nazr) the fans and players(especially a certain seven foot chucker with a drug problem) blamed everyone for their shortcomings: the refs, superstars, David Stern, coaches, tired legs, LB possibly leaving, etc. Never have I seen an organization(fans, media, players) worship an exec. like the Pistons have with Joe Dumars.

The overachievement party is just about over.

You think Max was a bad pick? I think it was a good pick. He's not going to carry a team, but a solid role player is about all you expect with a late first rounder IMO.

Dumars is my favorite player all time, but I'm not giving him a free pass. I don't think we were overrated the year we won it. Problem is that we peaked that season and have not reached that level of play (consistantly) ever again. Joe did a great job of ascending the mountain, he just failed at figuring a way to stay on top. He made some very bad draft picks and we've failed to improve because of it. However, I don't think that takes away from our one year of glory. Joe turned us into one hit wonders that hang around and grow old until they fade away.

I think regardless of how this season ends (even with a title) he would be wise to make some bold moves. Even a title wouldn't put us in line to challenge the Lakers (with Bynum next year), the Bulls (they fell off the map this year, but could have a huge offseason), the Hornets (will only improve), etc.

The Pistons can be explained quite simply.

They were never really that great. They were the benefactors of playing in a very shitty conference, thus getting automatic byes to the ECF and being called a great defensive team(which they weren't, considering their sleepy slow style and feeble competition). After a questionable title - fans & players sipped the Joe Dumars "team basketball" kool-aid(which was really LSD) and hung onto his every scrotum hair.......errr word. Then year after year of Detroit losing and being exposed as frauds, and year after year of bad acquisitions by Joe D(Arroyo, Darko, Delfino, Maxiell, Theo, Mo Evans, Nazr) the fans and players(especially a certain seven foot chucker with a drug problem) blamed everyone for their shortcomings: the refs, superstars, David Stern, coaches, tired legs, LB possibly leaving, etc. Never have I seen an organization(fans, media, players) worship an exec. like the Pistons have with Joe Dumars.

The overachievement party is just about over.

This is overstating things QUITE A BIT... but i think there's a germ of truth somewhere deep in there. IMO you cant come up short this many times in a row and still be "good enough to win a title". I think the reality is they were only good enough one year, and since then, have been pretty much at their "natural level" which is "good enough to beat a crappy team, and a pretty good team in the semis, and.... then lose" This is why only like two non-superstar teams have won, that one Sonics team, wasn't there some knicks team decades ago, and the one year the Pistons won. every other time, their offense has sputtered thanks to the other team's D nad we cant score.

I didn't read all 8 pages of this thread, but I'm not answering this "If A, then B?" question because the A part just isn't happening.

The Pistons will win game 6.
You were saying?

I still think Flip should stay. He's not the problem here.

The only thing I can say for sure is that this was by far his best coaching job in the playoffs IMO. As I said before, I don't know if he should be fired or not, but it would be ironic that he would get fired after doing his best as a Pistons coach (of course a lot of you would say that even that's not good with Flip).

If you fire Flip, you BETTER send some of the players packing with him. Because getting rid of Flip and nobody else accomplishes nothing. You're just continuing to let the inmates run the asylum...

Except for the Theo Ratliff nonsense, Flip had his finest coaching performance ever.

Is This The End For Saunders?

By Chris Sheridan
ESPN.com

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. -- Rasheed Wallace didn't have a lot to say afterward. Three times he walked to his locker and then walked away, only once uttering anything of substance.

"This is the end, man."

The end of what, Sheed?

Only time will tell.

Pistons insiders told ESPN.com it appears to be a 50-50 proposition whether Flip Saunders will return next season to coach the fourth and final year of his contract, having come up short in the conference finals for the third consecutive year after inheriting a team that was coming off consecutive trips to the NBA Finals.

Saunders now holds the record for most conference finals games coached (24) without ever making it to the Finals, and all eyes will be on team president Joe Dumars in the days ahead to see whether he and/or owner Bill Davidson feel it's time for a new voice to lead the team. If Saunders is fired, expect current Pistons assistants Terry Porter (who also is a candidate for the vacancy in Phoenix) and Michael Curry to head the list of potential successors.

Asked about his job security afterward, Saunders politely declined to say anything of substance.

"That's not a good question to answer right now. Just thinking about the loss. That's something Joe and I will sit down to evaluate," he said.

Dumars entered the past offseason lamenting the fact that his team had been defeated for a second straight season -- once against the Cavs, the other time against the Heat -- by an opponent that was simply hungrier than the Pistons. Too often, the Pistons' nonchalance and cavalier attitude had worked against them, and in their deciding final 12 minutes of this postseason, again they fell victim to an opponent that imposed its will.

All of the Pistons' starters except for Tayshaun Prince are at least 30 years old, and there's a strong possibility Dumars will break up the core of Prince, Wallace, Chauncey Billups, Richard Hamilton and Antonio McDyess in an effort to rebuild around Jason Maxiell, Rodney Stuckey, Amir Johnson and Arron Afflalo.

"He probably will, because there's no excuse on why we didn't go back to the Finals this year, and I'm pretty sure he sees that," McDyess said. "He's not blind and the fans are not blind, and I can't assume what he's going to do, but it will probably be pressed on him."

So stay tuned in the days ahead to the goings on in Motown. The Pistons may be done, but Dumars may just be getting started.

Porter's got a second interview with the Suns coming up.

Seriously, when do you think we'll get the first "Izzo to the Pistons" article?

So stay tuned in the days ahead to the goings on. Motown owns, the Pistons may be done, but Dumars may just be getting started.

Fixed.

The more McDyess talks, the more I like him. Him and Rip are the only two guys I'm sure won't be touched if it can be avoided. If either of them is moved its because a deal needed them in it to get done, rather then Joe wanting them gone.

(http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080531/SPORTS03/80531063/1051)Pistons assistant Curry: No discussion about replacing Flip (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080531/SPORTS03/80531063/1051)
June 1 Detroit Free Press

"And now the speculation begins. Will Flip Saunders stay or will he go? Or a more pointed question: Is the Pistons’ head coach already gone?...Saunders was among the first to leave, departing shortly after noon and heading directly to his vehicle without speaking with media members assembled in the parking lot. More than two hours later, the perceived top candidate to replace him emerged. Assistant coach Michael Curry talked briefly about his future with the Pistons but said he didn’t speak about the top job with team executives Saturday morning." (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080531/SPORTS03/80531063/1051)

Saunders shouldn't take all the blame (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080531/OPINION03/805310437/1127)
June 1 Detroit News
columnist Rob Parker
"Yes, the Pistons had their season halted for the third straight season in the Eastern Conference finals. Yes, there was the usual disappointment. Yes, there was some anger. Yes, there was puzzlement about what had happened, yet again. But after the Pistons lost Game 6, 89-81, to the Boston Celtics at The Palace on Friday night -- losing the best-of-seven series, 4-2 -- there wasn't the usual off-the-record, bad-mouthing of the coaching job by Flip Saunders. For sure, that was a theme the first two times the Pistons were stopped from making a trip to the NBA Finals. Even so, it doesn't appear as if it will be enough to save Saunders' job. The bottom line is that Saunders came here to help the Pistons win an NBA title. It didn't happen."
(http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080531/SPORTS03/80531063/1051)
Fire Pistons coach? Maybe; Stuckey even bigger deal (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080531/SPORTS03/80531056/1051)
June 1 Detroit Free Press
columnist Michael Rosenberg
"Let me say, up front, that I don’t think it’s fair to blame the Pistons’ loss to the Celtics on Flip Saunders. He did a very good coaching job for most of the postseason. He did not cling to his starters as much as he did in the past. The Pistons lost to a 66-win Celtics team in six games, with their point guard fighting a hamstring injury. You can’t pin it all on the coach. And yet, pro sports are not really about what you deserve. Most players don’t “deserve” to be traded. Teams trade them in order to win more. Coaches are no different. The question that will be asked often in coming days is simple: Should Joe Dumars fire Flip Saunders? But the situation is more complicated than that."
(http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080531/SPORTS03/80531063/1051)
Suns to interview Pistons assistant Terry Porter again (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080531/SPORTS03/80531050/1051)
June 1 Detroit Free Press

"Pistons assistant coach Terry Porter said he expects to meet for a second interview with the Phoenix Suns potentially this week. The second interview is definitely coming, it's just a matter of when. Porter said the Suns would first reach out to team president Joe Dumars."
(http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080531/SPORTS03/80531063/1051)
Porter to get 2nd interview with Suns (http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/117580)
June 1 East Valley Tribune

"Detroit Pistons assistant coach Terry Porter will have a second interview with the Suns on Monday, and San Antonio assistant Mike Budenholzer should get his first chance to speak with Phoenix general manager Steve Kerr and vice president David Griffin on Tuesday. Porter’s Pistons were eliminated from the playoffs Friday by the Celtics, while the Spurs were knocked out Thursday by the Lakers. Porter had an initial interview with the Suns on May 15, prior to the Eastern Conference finals."
(http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080531/SPORTS03/80531063/1051)
Porter, Budenholzer next on list (http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/2008/05/31/20080531suns.html)
June 1 Arizona Republic

"The conclusions of the NBA conference finals have afforded the Suns a chance to have second interviews with Detroit Pistons lead assistant coach Terry Porter and a first visit with San Antonio Spurs lead assistant Mike Budenholzer this week. Porter is coming to Phoenix early this week. Suns General Manager Steve Kerr and Senior Vice President of Basketball Operations David Griffin met with Porter in Detroit on May 15, when the Pistons had a break between playoff rounds. "I'm thankful I'm in the second-round process," Porter told reporters in Detroit before leaving town. "Go down there and do the best that I can do, and see how it plays out.""
(http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080531/SPORTS03/80531063/1051)

Flip the switch, or switch the Flip?

The magic 8 ball says: Patience, rabbit!

If Flip is the coach of the pistons I will have lost faith in JD never thought I would say that but from what I saw and I saw every game all year long he has done a horrible job. Lets just look at the playoffs THEO RATLIFF really you dont think we could have got the same plus boards and point from Amir your high. What about sheed 4 points 5 fouls give me a break look at his per horible

Pistons assistant Michael Curry claims that the team has not discussed replacing head coach Flip Saunders, according to The Detroit Free Press.

“It hasn’t been discussed,” Curry said. “We just finished the season. My mind was focused on the opportunity that we had to get to the Finals. My mind wasn’t on nothing else and no other team prior to now.”

With fellow assistant Terry Porter rumored to be a leading candidate for the coaching vacancy in Phoenix, Curry is without a doubt first in line to replace Saunders.

The Bulls wanted to talk with Curry about their head coaching job, but Detroit refused to allow Curry to speak with them.

“I hear things in the media, and I hear things from (my lawyer) as well,” Curry said. “He knew during the season that it wasn’t time to talk about it. We’d discuss it and see what the talk was, and then our focus was how I could continue to help (the Pistons) get better here.”

Seriously, when do you think we'll get the first "Izzo to the Pistons" article?

I have made it known that I hate Michigan State and Crybaby Izzo, but if he were the coach of the Pistons, I would LOVE IT!

Read it and weep, haters.


Expect a busy summer for Pistons
Chris McCosky / The Detroit News

AUBURN HILLS -- We were all wrong. All of us who speculated that the Pistons' loss in Game 6 to Boston spelled the end of Flip Saunders' coaching life in Detroit were wrong.

Saunders met briefly with Pistons president Joe Dumars on Saturday and all indications are that he was told he will be back.

Understand that with the Pistons, a coach's job security can change in an instant, but as of today, the plan is for Saunders to finish out the final year of his contract. He's already working on next season. He will supervise a workout of draft candidates at the practice facility Wednesday.

Advertisement

But that's not to say Game 6 didn't close a particular chapter for the Pistons.

It seems a pretty safe bet that the core of the team -- the group that has been together through six straight runs to the conference finals -- will be altered, significantly.

For starters, it's time to get off the Rasheed Wallace train. What a wild and crazy ride it has been with this mercurial talent, but how many times can a team climb back on board with him after he crashes?

Wallace took the Pistons from good to great in 2004. He brought the swagger, the edge. He brought a diverse range of skills and a genius-level basketball IQ. But he also brought a manic personality that in turns lifted the team and torpedoed it.
The inevitable crash

Sadly, probably unfairly, he will be remembered more for his flameouts than his brilliance. He was part of one of the biggest playoff collapses in history when his Portland team blew a huge lead to the Lakers in 2000. With the Pistons he:

• Left Robert Horry open for a winning, series-altering 3-pointer in Game 5 of the 2005 NBA Finals.

• Injured his ankle in Game 2 of the Eastern conference semifinals against Cleveland in 2006; neither he nor the Pistons were the same after that.

• Defied the coach's defensive plans against LeBron James in Game 5 of the conference finals in 2007 -- the confusion from which contributed to James scoring 25 straight points -- and then got ejected from Game 6.

• Spewed a profanity-laced tirade at the officials after Game 5 of the conference finals this season, earning a $25,000 fine, then showed up late to the team's shoot-around before a must-win Game 6, a game in which he managed just four points on 2-for-12 shooting.

In general, his playoff performances haven't matched his regular-season production. In 2004, he only shot 41 percent (24 percent from 3-point range) and averaged just three more points a game than Ben Wallace.
Ultimate contrast

Watching Wallace battle Boston's Kevin Garnett -- two of the elite power forwards of our time -- offered a fascinating contrast in personalities.

Off the court, Garnett can be a jerk. He is rude to ball boys and locker room attendants. He gets himself so intensely wound before games, he's even a jerk to his teammates at times.

But on the court, Garnett is the perfect teammate. He plays hard every second he's on the floor. He shares the ball. He executes the game plan completely and without questioning anything. If the coach says to cut, he cuts. If the coach says to play zone, he plays zone.

Wallace off the court is one of the warmest and funniest guys in the league. There isn't a ball boy or locker room attendant that he hasn't tipped lavishly. You think back on all the things he has done -- buying championship belts for his teammates, working patiently and tirelessly with the young guys on the team, working tirelessly for underprivileged kids in the community -- he has a heart of gold.

But on the court, Wallace can be a jerk. There are times, because he is so ridiculously skilled, he just gets bored and lax. He doesn't always agree with the game plan, but instead of arguing about it before the game, he sometimes tries to rebel against it during the game.

His passion to win is every bit as strong as Garnett's, but Wallace too often channels that passion into negative energy. And because his personality is so large and dominant on this team, once he goes to the dark side, he generally takes the team there with him.

Not much was made of Wallace coming late to shoot-around Friday. He has come late many times before. But his coming late on the day of a do-or-die game deflated the entire team. When he sauntered in 15 minutes late, his teammates knew he wasn't going to be there for them that night -- and he wasn't.

Wallace will be 34 in September. He has one year left on his contract ($13.7 million). Because of that, and because he still can be a force especially in a contract year, Wallace has trade value.

Certainly Dumars will at least test the waters to see what return he might be able to get on Wallace. He might even look to package him with another starter.
Superstar search?

Because here's the dilemma Dumars faces right now: He has built this team on the principle of balance and depth, five guys playing as one. Much was made in 2004 of the Pistons being the first team in 30 years to win an NBA title without a bona fide superstar.

But the NBA changed the rules after the Pistons won in 2004. They essentially outlawed the style of defense the Pistons played in 2004. No more clutching and banging away from the ball. It's virtually impossible, as we've seen, to stop the likes of LeBron James or Paul Pierce or Kobe Bryant any more. You might be able to contain them for a while, but over the course of a seven-game series, they will break free and you had better be able to match their firepower. Will Dumars alter his philosophy? Will he seek to find a superstar?

The Pistons have enough assets and financial flexibility to do it. But legitimate superstar players, if you haven't noticed, are in short supply.

And if you make a mistake and build your team around a fake superstar, or a part-time superstar, you are doomed (see the New York Knicks).

Take a guy like Shawn Marion, who might or might not be available this summer. Is this the type of player you want to give a large chunk of your payroll to? If you add him to the mix at the expense of Wallace and perhaps, just to throw in another starter, Richard Hamilton, does that get the Pistons over the hump? Not unless Amir Johnson is ready to contribute 12 points and 10 rebounds a game.

A quick scan of the free-agent class offers a lot of risky bets: Atlanta's Josh Smith (restricted), Sacramento's Ron Artest, Golden State's Monta Ellis (restricted) and Matt Barnes, Philadelphia's Andre Iguodala (restricted), Washington's Gilbert Arenas and Antawn Jamison.

No sure bets there.

Would Dumars call his buddy Michael Jordan in Charlotte and try to work a deal for Jason Richardson, who is going to, most likely, chafe under the constraints of Larry Brown's offense? Would Dumars call and offer Wallace and others in exchange for Richardson and Emeka Okafor?

These are doable deals, but do they take the Pistons over the hump?

Or, will Dumars think it more prudent to hang on to Wallace and use that $13.7 million in additional cap space the following summer when the likes of Dwyane Wade and James hit the open market?

Either way, brace yourself for a busy summer. The coach might be coming back, but most likely with an altered cast of characters.

Served!

=(

I think I'm gonna go start the official 2009 offseason thread.

So he gets his lame duck season and will essentially be a high priced tutor for Michael Curry.

And I still feel that if you think the inmates were running the asylum this year, just wait and see how next season goes, especially if they bring Rasheed back.

Looks like Vecsey missed the memo.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/06012008/sports/pistons_flip_out_113448.htm


PISTONS FLIP OUT

By PETER VECSEY

June 1, 2008 -- FAILING to crash The Finals for the third straight season is guaranteed to cost Pistons coach Flip Saunders a fourth try.

Hold on, don't pass the collection plate just yet; Saunders is owed $5 million for next season and undoubtedly will be picked up with the rest of the recyclables before the week is out by one of the NBA's any environmentally-obsessed teams.

Why aren't back-to-back-toback Final Four flushes enough to please and appease management? Last I looked, top executive Joe Dumars and owner Bill Davidson didn't attain Hall of Fame status by settling for less than a championship.

Following the last two Eastern Conference disappointments, the pressure was turned on and up full throttle. Going into this season, Dumars alerted Saunders, his staff and the players anything less than a title wave would be unacceptable.

No consolation prize would behanded out for coming in second, much less ending up tied for third with the Spurs. Dumars and Davidson bluntly believe the Pistons have underachieved since two successive Supreme Court appearances under Larry Brown that resulted in one championship.

Their goal was inflexible: Graduate Finishing School with honors or presume expulsion.

On the "flip side," assistant Michael Curry - not Terry Porter, a leading candidate for the Suns' vacancy, or Dave Cowens - is certain to succeed Saunders. The former Pistons guard, union president and league official was a Dumars appointment last summer.

Clearly, Curry was placed in position to inherit management's enduring grand expectations (that cannot be realized unless a relatively young, established big man is imported) should its objective prove unattainable.

At least Flip's coaching finally helped the Big Ticket get to the Big Dance, zaps column contributor Michael Dortheimer.

• Defied the coach's defensive plans against LeBron James in Game 5 of the conference finals in 2007 -- the confusion from which contributed to James scoring 25 straight points -- and then got ejected from Game 6.
This one stands out. What were Flip's defensive plans? Wear Tayshaun down until he was a toothpick?

I'm actually OK with this, if Joe is planning on nuking the team.

I found this when I was searching for "Tom Izzo Pistons"

I hadn't heard about this before.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080527/SPORTS03/805270354/1051/sports

1) the formatting (quotes) are messed up.

2) where is the stuckey part? One sentance?

I deleted it because it was the same Rosenberg article that I posted in #87, only with a different headline.

Remember when McCosky reported a coaching change correctly?

Neither do I.

I was thinking the same.

It's funny how everything out there today about this is all based on McCosky's article.

I feel like throwing up.

Exclamation mark and everything, lol.


FLIP SAUNDERS IS IN JOE DUMARS' OFFICE. OH MY GOODNESS GRACIOUS!

Well, there goes the nuke. Hopefully we'll still get some sort of large bomb. At least give me a missle. (Rasheed)

I think I'm gonna go start the official 2009 offseason thread.

QFTMFT

fuck this...

Flip Saunders' status still in limbo
by A. Sherrod Blakely
Monday June 02, 2008, 8:46 AM

AUBURN HILLS -- This Flip Saunders situation is looking a lot like the final days of the Rick Carlisle regime.

This season had a disappointing ending, just like Carlisle's final season did. Despite racking up a bunch of wins, Saunders found himself being second-guessed all season by fans publicly and players privately, just like Carlisle. And when Saunders left for the summer, he felt as though he would be back, just like Carlisle.

Not only did Carlisle expect to be back, but there were preliminary talks about a contract extension.

It's unclear if such discussions have taken place between the Pistons and Saunders, but returning without one would be difficult and awkward for all involved.

However, the one difference now as opposed to 2003, just might be what Saunders needs in order to return.

The Pistons dumped Carlisle because in their eyes, a better coach (Larry Brown) was on the market. And once Brown made it known through various back channels that he would be interested in coming to Detroit if the job was open, Carlisle was as good as gone.

So far, there doesn't appear to be that one coach available who is clearly better equipped to coach this team, than Saunders.

Michael Curry is a logical choice, but his inexperience on the bench (this was his first year as an assistant) works against him. Terry Porter is another possibility, but I'm not convinced Porter is necessarily an upgrade. And then there's Avery Johnson, who is a good coach, but again, not necessarily an upgrade.

Saunders is under the impression that he'll be back, and that may be the case. But it may have more to do with there not being a better candidate on the market, than it does a huge ringing endorsement for Saunders, especially if he comes back without an extension.

If this is your guy, why would you let him go into the final year of his contract without extending it?

It'll be very interesting to see how all this plays out in the coming months. Because as we all know, things have a way of changing really fast around here - especially for head coaches coming off disappointing seasons.

IN BEFORE KSTAT DISCREDITS ASB

Matt Dery believes Flip Saunders is done

Posted by Justin Rogers June 02, 2008 14:21PM

Matt Dery, the host of the pregame, halftime and postgame shows on the Detroit Pistons flagship station, WDFN-AM 1130, believes that despite reports to the contrary, Flip Saunders will be out as Detroit Pistons head coach in the near future.


June 2, WDFN.com: Whether you like Saunders or not, he has failed to get the team to where they need to go and Joe knows it, Scott Perry knows it and Mr D knows it. We all know it. Maybe Dumars told Flip he is not going to make a change right now and for him to continue on with drilling draft prospects in the next few weeks, but that still does not mean anything. It happens all the time in sports, the dreaded "vote of confidence" or "no move means status quo" bit.

I think Flip is going to be gone, it is just a matter of time. A new voice is needed and it really is no knock on Flip. He is what he is. There is no guarantee that the next coach will be any better, it is just time for a change. Deep down Saunders knows it too, right now he is just trying to dodge the wolves and save face and I don't blame him.

We've seen plenty of vote of confidences before changes were made. Any time you see an upgrade you can't stick to your word.

and there aren't any clear upgrades out there...

Are there any hotshot assistants out there that we should know about?
Somehow, Michael Curry is coveted league-wide. I assume there are others, as well.

the team with quality players that hires izzo with the idea of winning is idiotic. you bust your chops as an assistant in this league, then maybe someone gives you a shot. But straight out of college is the easiest proven path to futility.

Curry earned his shot as an assistant here and in Indy, and Joe D thinks he's got that it? Then roll with it. Atleast I wont know what to expect in the playoffs rather than see it coming a mile away.

Either way i'm a fan of the Pistons, any loyalty to saunders really isnt gonna work for me. Teams lose and the coach is fired. these the same lazy chuckers they were in carlisle's era. Theres by far worse lazier players in worse situations. I dont care who is on or off the roster next year. I'll take anyone who wants to be here piss on anyone who doesnt. But I said at the beginning of the year that Flip "should" be fired if we fail to meet the quality of our talent. Its personally what i wanted, so if you wanted something else or dont see it that way, more power to you. But i'm disappointed in the results of a possibly better team than 2005's squad not getting there.

Flip Saunders' future to be decided soon

by A. Sherrod Blakely
Tuesday June 03, 2008, 12:10 AM

AUBURN HILLS -- The future of Detroit Pistons coach Flip Saunders is still up in the air.

However, multiple league sources said Monday he still is likely to be fired, and a decision should be made within days.

Joe Dumars, Detroit's president of basketball operations, and team owner Bill Davidson are expected to meet within the next day or so to discuss, among other things, whether the team will retain Saunders, who has one year left on a four-year, $20 million deal he signed in 2005.

Saunders spoke briefly with Dumars on Saturday, but no decision was made about whether the Pistons would retain Saunders.

Despite having the best winning percentage of any Pistons coach in his first three years on the job, Saunders has come under fire every offseason for not getting Detroit to the NBA Finals as his predecessor, Larry Brown, did in each of his two seasons in Detroit.

The second-guessing from the fans is expected. Players do it, too, but rarely does it become public. However, there were multiple times this season when Pistons players made no secret about how they disagreed with some of Saunders' decisions.

Early in the season against Milwaukee, Saunders took Richard Hamilton out early in a game after Hamilton made a couple turnovers within a minute. Hamilton launched a verbal tirade at Saunders that did not end until Hamilton finally made his way to the bench. A similar incident occurred involving Hamilton and Saunders later in the season.

In Detroit's Game 5 loss at Boston, Lindsey Hunter was noticeably irate at Saunders' decision to take him out late in the game and replace him with Chauncey Billups, who went on to score nine consecutive points for Detroit.

In both instances, Saunders was justified in the decision he made.

But the fact that the players did not fall in line with his decision, and the fact that similar second-guessing occurred throughout the season involving other players, are among the many factors Dumars and Davidson have to weigh in deciding whether to retain Saunders.

Saunders' coaching acumen is not in question.

All involved agree he is a good coach, one that if fired, will not be unemployed for very long.

But the issue surrounding him and Detroit is the same issue any coach who takes over this team will have to encounter.

Is he the right fit for this team?

At times, Saunders seemed to be that guy.

At other times, not so much.

It does not help Saunders that the Pistons already have two potential replacements on staff in assistant coaches Michael Curry and Terry Porter.

In the playoffs, it was not uncommon for Pistons players, when interviewed after a win, to mention something 'Coach Curry' said to them that helped the team play better.

Curry, who just completed his first season as an NBA assistant, said Saturday he had not talked with the Pistons about becoming the team's new head coach.

However, Curry added he is not surprised such a rumor was out there.

"I knew that from the roles I've had when I was a player that, anytime I was on a staff as an assistant, that would come up," said Curry, who was a Pistons team captain and has also had executive-level positions with the league's front office.

Porter was the team's lead assistant this past season, and has been linked with a number of job openings the past couple years. However, he appears to be one of the leading candidates for the vacant Phoenix Suns coaching job. Porter is expected to have a second interview with Suns GM Steve Kerr, who played with Porter in San Antonio.

If neither pans out, the Pistons may look to ex-Dallas coach Avery Johnson.

LOL at the "Coach Curry" reference.

:lathamjahnke:


Dumars, Saunders set to meet to discuss Pistons coach's future

BY KRISTA JAHNKE • FREE PRESS SPORTS WRITER • June 3, 2008

Will Flip Saunders be back as the coach of the Pistons next season? It's too early to tell.

A person with knowledge of the situation said president Joe Dumars has not sat down with Saunders yet to discuss the past season, which ended last week to the Boston Celtics in the Eastern Conference finals.

Nor has Dumars met with owner Bill Davidson, who will undoubtedly have his say in Saunders' future.

The person said a meeting between Dumars and Davidson will take place "really soon," and after that, questions about Saunders' future should be cleared up. The person stressed that Saunders has not yet been given any assurance he'll be back.

Saunders has one year remaining on the four-year deal he signed in July 2005.

There are four feasible options for moving forward: Dumars could let Saunders coach the final year of his contract; he could offer him an extension to avoid having a lame-duck coach; he could fire him; or he could allow him to seek other coaching opportunities and come to a mutual parting.

Saunders did not return a call seeking comment Monday. If Saunders does not return, assistant coach Michael Curry is the top candidate thought to be in line to replace him.

Last month, the Pistons would not allow Chicago to interview Curry for the Bulls' head coaching job because they are believed to be grooming him as their next head coach.

Saunders has the best regular-season coaching record in Pistons history (176-70), but has failed to get the team back to the NBA Finals since their appearances with Larry Brown in 2004 and '05.

The past three seasons have ended for the Pistons in the Eastern Conference finals. While the first two defeats came to teams that were widely considered inferior -- to Cleveland in 2007 and Miami in '06 -- this season was different. The Pistons lost a six-game series to the Boston Celtics, a 66-win team in the regular season with three All-Stars on their roster.

They took the Celtics to six games despite point guard Chauncey Billups' injury. But losing a 10-point lead in the fourth quarter of Game 6 at home was a bitter ending to what was otherwise a solidly played series for the Pistons.

Per yahoo

Saunders out as Pistons coach
2 minutes ago

AUBURN HILLS, MICHIGAN (TICKER) —Flip Saunders will not return as the Detroit Pistons’ head coach next season, the team announced Tuesday.

Reported on WDFN too.

LOL

It Happened.

Kstat is devistated.

http://wtfdetroit.com/forums/image.php?u=413&dateline=1212415971

Pistons say Flip Saunders won't return as coach

ESPN.com news services

Updated: June 3, 2008, 11:05 AM ET

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AUBURN HILLS, Mich. -- The Detroit Pistons say Flip Saunders will not be back as coach next season.

"Decisions like this are difficult to make," team president Joe Dumars said on the team's Web site. "However, at this time, I feel it is necessary to make a change."

The Associated Press contributed to this story.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3423956

I guess the haters get their way after 3 years of not getting their way. I'd say they were due as was Flip. Goodbye Carlisle part deux.

Detroit Celebrates!!!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/74/181897403_0788770f90.jpg?v=0

Where is the "Izzo to Coach Pistons" speculation article already?

Kstat cries

:emo kid:

Keep your cheers down, Though I hope I'm wrong, I expect one poster to start bashing all our players for somehow getting him fired through their lazy chucking.

Where is the "Izzo to Coach Pistons" speculation article already?
in someones garbage can.

Fire Theo now and we are jumping it off right.

D16IEDtZ59U

I apologize to everyone one who loves Flip, but I love Detroit and I'm relieved he's gone. Just me being honest, no rubbing it in at all if losing him bothers you. I wish him the best, I think he could coach the heck out of a euro styled team like Toronto.

I'm actually enthused to start over. Get a tough minded Coach back in the driver's seat. I'm also disappointed in an era of pistons basketball where we missed out on a dynasty. Is that era over? Maybe not. Looking at the Spurs and their core(and their bench has been garbage for most years not counting ginobli), I say we can still muster something up. The question is whether Joe D. wants to try or just rebuild.

I'm hoping this move means more to come in the near future as well and am excited to see change.

Flip Saunders Not To Return As Pistons’ Coach

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. - Detroit Pistons President of Basketball Operations Joe Dumars announced today that Flip Saunders will not return next season as the team’s head coach.

“Decisions like this are difficult to make, especially with the success we have had throughout the last three regular-seasons,” Dumars said. “However, at this time, I feel it is necessary to make a change. I thank Flip for his hard work and dedication, but it is time for a new voice to lead our team.”

Saunders, who was named head coach on July 21, 2005, tallied a regular-season record of 176-70 in three seasons with the Pistons. In three trips to the NBA Playoffs under Saunders the Pistons were 30-21, losing in the Eastern Conference Finals each year.

*Sheed celebrates*

Ok we got out dave lewis, whose gonna be our mike babcock?

well sheed might be gone next. and i think he should be.

fip wasn't THE reason we lost to boston. but i definitely think we need a fresh voice. it was clear that while he was a solid coach, the players never really respected him or bought into his gameplans.

for whatever reason. but i think a guy like curry, who was never a great player and not even an assistant for long, at least understands a nba player's mindset.

i think he is a guy the players would respect more and buy into what he says. and that can make a huge difference.

HOWEVER, we need more than just a new coach and a small 'tweaking' of the roster. sheed needs to go IMO.

if we weren't good enough to get it done this year, when we were perfectly set up to do so, then there's NO WAY simply hiring a new coach and making a small roster addition will get us where we want to go. there needs to be more of a shakeup than that.

and i hope this move does not mean we think it's more the coach than the players in the lockerroom. we need a fairly big roster move too IMO.

http://www.gearfuse.com/wp-content/uploads/andrew/1_dec06/computergear_1927_470086.jpg

Yep, it's Curry time.

2 pm presser, btw

fip wasn't THE reason we lost to boston.
Then its clear avery johnson wasnt the reason the mavs lost or that d'antoni wasnt the reason phoenix lost. I really doubt anyone doesnt blame LB for our finals loss, but isnt theo the equivalent to tay being on duncan? Its his responsibility to get this group of very talented lazy chuckers to work out. He failed in getting that. You can't begin to tell me Dallas or Phoenix were teams on their best behavior or that they would listen to Flip if he pussied up on them like he did on us.


it was clear that while he was a solid coach,
Solid how? We had to force him to take on a staff worth a damn, and its then that his coaching looked better. Ironic to me.


the players never really respected him or bought into his gameplans.
Again sounds like thats on him. Billups hated LB's offense, but you can bet he ran it as told like it or not. IMO Flip being gone will mean Billups calling less plays and for a better "my way or the highway" perspective from whoerver takes over.

Curry had better bring in some experienced assistants, especially an offensive guru.

I wonder which of the current staff will return? Cowens? Igor? Will they keep Porter if he doesn't get the PHX gig?

If the lockerroom environment is poisoned, then maybe they all need to go?

Let me retract on the solid coaching part. I do think he was solid from a playbook standpoint and philosophy. But I do also think he didnt have the balls to coach this team. He never spoke of defense until this year. He let the gm tell him who to hire, and he didnt really commend respect as much as he seemed to hope for it.

Curry had better bring in some experienced assistants, especially an offensive guru.

I wonder which of the current staff will return? Cowens? Igor? Will they keep Porter if he doesn't get the PHX gig?

If the lockerroom environment is poisoned, then maybe they all need to go?
I doubt we dump everybody. But thats all on Joe. I personally think the locker room is the same as its always been. Your HC has to make that work. I think in the bad boys era it was worse(fights, rumors of wife mongering by other players, and who knows what else). I think Joe D is looking for a coach who can handle it, rather than make the situation easier for the coach and risk serious setbacks.

Oh, and this needs to be said:

LOL @ :mccosky:

Holy shit, fuck yeah. Great news.

I'm scared guys. Hold me. :emo kid:

So is Flip going to compete with Porter for the Suns job now?

OMG THERE IS A GUYS-NAMED-FLIP HOLOCAUST GOING ON!

i'm sure he'll wait out the sheed situation so he can make sure he doesn't end up coaching him again! ;o)

+1 Higherwarrior

___I wasn't wrong.
___I've never been wrong.
___When did I ever say anything about Flip Saunders?
___There is nothing to see here.
____/
:mccosky:

___There is nothing to see here.
____/
:mccosky:

http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/Officer_Barbrady_figure.jpg

I didn't notice that the poll was still open.

Nice job to all of you late voters.

+1 us.

Wobb Parker and Skip Bayless on Flip:
http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?&brand=null&videoId=3424025&n8pe6c=2

Wobb's "moles", lol





ESPN poll on Flip:
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/polling?event_id=3509

1) Should the Pistons have fired Flip Saunders?

56.8% No
43.2% Yes


2) Larry Brown left the Pistons after the 2004-05 season. If Larry Brown had remained the Pistons' coach, how many more titles would the Pistons have won?

44.2% 1
39.9% 0
13.5% 2
2.4% 3


3) Can the Pistons win a NBA title with their current roster?

56.4% No
43.6% Yes


4) Are the Pistons a declining power in the Eastern Conference?

62.5% Yes
37.5% No


5) Which of these potential coaching candidates is the best choice to replace Saunders?

30.8% Avery Johnson
19.5% Jeff Van Gundy
16.0% Bill Laimbeer
9.2% Michael Curry
8.0% Tom Izzo
5.8% Mark Jackson
4.7% Terry Porter
2.3% Dave Cowens
2.0% Paul Silas
1.5% Mike Fratello

6) How would you describe the Pistons' performance under Flip Saunders the last three seasons?

49.2% Matched expectations
44.2% Underachieved
6.5% Overachieved


7) Would you want Flip Saunders coaching your favorite NBA team?

53.1% No
46.9% Yes




Total Votes: 2,990

Isiah?

Wobb Parker: "He came into a situation that was really tough"

Yeah, taking over a team that went to the Finals the last two years is a tough spot to be in.

Good riddance. It was halfway through our 06 season (back when everyone was talking 70 wins) that I got concerned about the soft offensive system, complete lack of rebounding, and grit and the fact that our wins were entirely based on getting streaky hot on jump shots. Year after year i delude myself into thinking, well this year, we can pull it off... he got 3 years, which is fine with me, and he will get another job offer within weeks if not sooner. Flip is in a good position actually.

Of course, if we just come back with the exact same roster it doesn't really help that much.

This is a good FIRST STEP to fixing our problems, but we DESPERATELY NEED to revamp our front-court.

As for future coaches, it depends a lot on what kind of offensive system the coach is going to put into place.

:langlois:


Joe D: 'Time for a new voice'

Joe Dumars’ statement was straight to the point, pretty much like his playing career, which was a study of economy of motion. It was three sentences worth – and if you had to pick out the key one among them to sum up the logic behind Flip Saunders’ firing even more concisely, it would be this phrase from the final sentence: “ … it is time for a new voice to lead our team.”

Dumars knows he has some work to do before the 2008-09 NBA season tips off, but it’s fair to assume he saw flawed chemistry as part of the reason the Pistons – for the third straight season – will be agitated spectators when the NBA Finals tip off later this week.

The Saunders era will be remembered for several things – the wildly successful 64-win 2005-06 regular season, among them – but, perhaps, mostly for the three straight Eastern Conference finals exits when the Pistons had difficulty responding to the increasing levels of urgency each round of the playoffs assumes.

Against a hungry Miami team in 2006, against the ferocity of LeBron James’ drive in 2007 and against the radically reconstructed Boston Celtics just last week, the Pistons couldn’t offer the necessary resistance to turn back momentum once it started going against them.

The way the Pistons were eliminated by Boston was the most dramatic – and, to Dumars, perhaps the most alarming – evidence yet that it was time for a new driving force at the wheel. Ahead by 10 points early in the fourth quarter of Game 6 – at home, no less – the Pistons suffered collapses at both ends of the floor and lost going away. In 18 offensive possessions after taking the 10-point lead, the Pistons shot 4 of 14 – 2 of 12 if not for Jason Maxiell’s efforts – with five turnovers. And in the 13 defensive possessions after taking the 10-point lead, Boston scored 25 points on 8 of 9 shooting and 6 of 7 foul shooting.

Dumars will talk further about the decision to fire Saunders this afternoon. No word yet on a successor to Saunders, though it would be at least a mild surprise if it wasn’t going to be Michael Curry. A former teammate of Dumars in the ’90s, Curry was brought back to Detroit as a free agent at the urging of Dumars in his one-year transition period from player to president when Rick Sund was general manager. Dumars brought Curry back to the team last summer as an assistant coach after Curry had spent two years working for the league office.

Though it would normally seem risky to hire a first-time head coach – especially one with just one year as an assistant under his belt – as the leader of a title-contending team, Curry would assume the job under difference circumstances. Not only is he deeply respected by the current players – Curry, as an NBA role player, rose to president of the Players Association – but Curry is eminently steeped in Pistons culture.

Check back later today on Pistons.com for Dumars’ thoughts and more on the coaching situation.

Anybody know who is going to cover the 2 pm presser?

I assume that DFN will stream it, but will anyone carry the video?

There isn't anybody left here that DOESN'T think it's going to be Curry, right?

If for no other reason than Mr. Moneybags will probably only have to give him $1m or less this season, which really helps offset Flip's $5mil.

There is no way in hell that he brings in an Avery Johnson at $3m+ when he still has to pay Flip his $5m

Anybody know who is going to cover the 2 pm presser?

I assume that DFN will stream it, but will anyone carry the video?
Pistons.com or NBA.com? ESPNEWS maybe?

Good riddance. It was halfway through our 06 season (back when everyone was talking 70 wins) that I got concerned about the soft offensive system, complete lack of rebounding, and grit and the fact that our wins were entirely based on getting streaky hot on jump shots. Year after year i delude myself into thinking, well this year, we can pull it off... he got 3 years, which is fine with me, and he will get another job offer within weeks if not sooner. Flip is in a good position actually.

Of course, if we just come back with the exact same roster it doesn't really help that much.

This is a good FIRST STEP to fixing our problems, but we DESPERATELY NEED to revamp our front-court.

As for future coaches, it depends a lot on what kind of offensive system the coach is going to put into place.
I dont care about the offensive system as long as it isnt carlisle's dead pan scheme. I care about finally getting some defensive emphasis as a first priority from the jump. Also front court wise we just need a true center worth a damn. unfortunately its the hardest thing on earth to find these days.. Unless Samb has a future in next season, we need to fill that role and send dyess/Sheed/Maxiell all back to exclusive PF where they belong..

I'm home today so I'm hoping FSN will carry this......also I'm indifferent to the firing.

nope, it's Michigan Golf Live

mcocksky defending him on espn news. Damn he's riding flip's jock hardcore and bashing rasheed in the process. Sighed hard about Michael curry taking over, he didnt sound pleased...lol

its on espn news and nba tv

If I remember correctly, there was like zero media coverage of this last year, but I thought with the added dimension of Flip's firing that there might be a chance.

Media coverage of the Pistons is so lacking, especially locally.

I think WDFN may still stream it, at least I hope so.

I think Stoney & Wojo are coming on early.

DFN has it on now, Joe's speaking.

Joe says that things were scattered and that Flip basically didnt keep everybody on the same page.

Joe D blasts back at tear it down nuke it concept. Called it a farce that it works. But will look to make signifact change. So maybe a piece or two of the core.

Looks like he is looking for upgrades, not nukes. But there are no scared cows, so Yea active dealing may be on the way.

When he was asked if he is going to make significant changes, he said "You're damn right".

"Sacred cows" being overused.

I give Joe credit, he's passionate about trying to win it every year. I know some dont like that because they want a full tear down blow up. But i prefer this effort to keep us competitive every year.

Just said that he's had 4 coaches contact him since noon.

he said coaching calls. Could also be teams trying to talk to one of his assistants maybe?

Joe is not feeling the rebuild questions at all. Muthafucka didnt like the phrase "close the curtain" at all.

I think he's saying a lot when he says that he's targeting "a certain type of player", ones that will give their all and do everything it takes to win.

That's a backhanded condemnation of the current squad, at least some of them, specifically.

Said he's looking for the same characteristics in his players and coaches.

let the offseason begin

"I'd like to change a major portion of this core"

Holy shit.

I think he's saying a lot when he says that he's targeting "a certain type of player", ones that will give their all and do everything it takes to win.

That's a backhanded condemnation of the current squad, at least some of them, specifically.


You can be sure Rip and Dyess aren't going anywhere then.

I think he's saying a lot when he says that he's targeting "a certain type of player", ones that will give their all and do everything it takes to win.

That's a backhanded condemnation of the current squad, at least some of them, specifically.
Yea, and it should. I think he has high expectations for what he built. Definitely calling guys out.

He said every team was playing harder than us in the conference finals this year.

let the offseason begin

Fuck yeah!

He has to call them out.

Last offseason he said "we will not settle for complacency" and he basically stood pat.

Can't come out and say the same thing now and stand pat again.

Eli Zarret is a douche.

Making sure accountability goes around, i can respect that.

I'm loving this like BigggChrisss loves his everyday McDs.

Fuck they cut it off. Damn DFN.

nbatv

Thanks man. At work though.

Killer talking about the NBA is almost worse than McCosky.

Okay, he's talked the talk, now it's time to walk.

damn, that sucks then. :(

Okay, he's talked the talk, now it's time to walk.
Taking a careful stance though. Drew tried to hoe him and put him on the spot. He retorted with the fact that he's not giving anybody away for nothing.

SAS says it's Curry, btw

It's always more fun when we have a coach that is easy to make fun of.

This is going to be good.

Also, I actually think Curry could work out, but I think we're going to need an experienced "co-head coach" to help him with offense and x's and o's.

If they players really do respect and will listen to Binary Man, and if he instills a "defense and rebounding first" mentality and let's someone else handle the offense and playcalling, then I think it's possible that he can be a successful "manager".

Just who that "co-head coach" is, is going to be vital.

Also, I actually think Curry could work out, but I think we're going to need an experienced "co-head coach" to help him with offense and x's and o's.

If they players really do respect and will listen to Binary Man, and if he instills a "defense and rebounding first" mentality and let's someone else handle the offense and playcalling, then I think it's possible that he can be a successful "manager".

Just who that "co-head coach" is, is going to be vital.
Basically what the celts assistant is to doc rivers on defense.

Source: Curry to succeed Saunders as Pistons seek new voice

ESPN.com news services
Updated: June 3, 2008, 3:18 PM ET

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. -- Flip Saunders was fired as the Pistons' coach Tuesday, four days after Detroit was eliminated from the playoffs by the Boston Celtics. And more changes could be on the way for a team bounced from three straight conference finals.

Pistons assistant Michael Curry will be named Saunders' successor, a source close to the Pistons told ESPN's Stephen A. Smith. Curry is a former Pistons player and official in the players' union.

"Make no mistake, everybody is in play right now," said Joe Dumars, the Pistons' president of basketball operations. "There are no sacred cows here. You lose that sacred cow status when you lose three straight years.

"This will not be a long, drawn-out process," Dumars said about a replacement for Saunders. "The next coach is going to be handed a good team. You worry more when you don't have the players to compete at the level you need them to."

Saunders had a year left on a four-year deal he signed in 2005. His ouster comes three years after he took over for Larry Brown, who led the Pistons to two straight NBA Finals.

"I think this team became way too content and did not show up with a sense of urgency to get it done," Dumars said at a news conference. "I can't sugarcoat it. It is what it is."

Dumars stopped short of saying he would dismantle the Pistons.

"The idea you can make yourself bad and make yourself good again, that's a farce," he said. "I have no interest in completely ripping the team down. Will I look to making significant changes? Yeah, you're damn right I will."

A message seeking comment was left for Saunders on Tuesday.

In Saunders' three seasons, the Pistons were 176-70 in the regular season and 30-21 in the postseason, but they lost in the Eastern Conference finals each year.

The Pistons have appeared in six straight conference finals, the first franchise to do so since the Los Angeles Lakers in the 1980s. But they also are the second team in league history to lose in the round before the NBA finals three years in a row, joining the Celtics from 1953-55.

Dumars decided a year ago to bring back key players who have been together since the 2004 championship season, as well as Saunders, while infusing energy with rookies and young reserves. But after the loss in Game 6 of the Eastern Conference finals to Boston on Friday, the likelihood of change grew.

Before coming to Detroit, Saunders was 411-326 with the Minnesota Timberwolves from 1995-05. He led them to eight straight postseason appearances -- seven first-round exits and an appearance in the 2004 conference finals. After leading Minnesota to a franchise-high 58 wins, he was fired with a 25-26 mark in the 2004-05 season.

ESPN's Stephen A. Smith and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

Also Flip may knock Porter out for the phoenix job. With good reason though. I think its a great fit for Flip even shaq.

Why is this thread not titled "Flip Out"

?

Dumars on WDFN right now.

Says he was sickened by how they dropped game 3 of the finals and the way they went out in the last game.

Says team was good enough to get to finals in all three of the last 3 years. Says the last ten minutes of the season was a microcosm of the last 3 years, good enough, right there with the chance to make it, not getting it done.

Says Sheed is an easy scapegoat and the hugging controversy with Sheed is "weak". "What the hell does that have to do with giving them layups?"

Dumars on WDFN right now.
Any comments on Curry?

Stoney said SAS reported Curry was coach. Joe's reply was "Who did? He reported it today? <sigh> <pause> Killer you got a question man?"

Compared Amir to Stuckey in that they both do things no one else on the team can do.

Flip is 1-11 on the road in conference play east and west.

I'm not big on Curry, hopefully I eat some crow down the road...


He just seems like such a passive guy...

Man, not even waiting for the Finals to get started before he starts showing motherfuckers the backside of his hand. Joe keeps it REAL.

I'm not big on Curry, hopefully I eat some crow down the road...


He just seems like such a passive guy...
LOL....Curry passive? Even more compared to Flip???????lol

I'm already sick of being reminded how smart he is and that he has a MASTER'S DEGREE and he used to caddy at the MASTERS in Augusta when he was young.

And for those of you that forgot about the "lockerroom spying" incident(s), his wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Curry

I wonder who will be on his staff, besides Abdenour, Arnie and Igor...

Bucher on ESPNEWS talking about Flipper

Blakley on WGHN: Flip firing just the beginning of offseason activity for Pistons

by Mike Itchue | MLive.com
Tuesday June 03, 2008, 4:26 PM

Detroit Pistons Insider A. Sherrod Blakley joined Ryan Terpstra on Sports Talk with Ryan Terpstra (1370 WGHN-AM Grand Haven) shortly after attending Joe Dumars' press conference announcing Flip Saunders' firing. Blakley says this is only the beginning.

"Flip is just the first of what may be a few shoes to fall between now and training camp," Blakley said.

A. Sherrod also talked about his report from earlier in the day that assistant coach Michael Curry will be the next head coach, saying the Pistons like his tough-minded, gritty style.

"They feel very confident in his ability as a leader," Blakley said.

Listen to the full interview to hear Blakley talk about which current Piston has the most trade value and address rumors of Detroit's interests in Washington's Gilbert Arenas and Charlotte's Jason Richardson.

Audio: http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2008/06/blakley_on_wghn_flip_firing_ju.html

This is still all on Joe Dumars for wasting our time this season when any coherent thinker could see it wasn't going to work with Flip Saunders. Other than Joe Dumars there isn't anyone more responsible for this team's failures more than Flip. Since day 1 I've spewed nothing but venemous shit about the man. Fuck him. I'm done.

The next coach needs to earn the respect of the team, plain and simple. It isn't about Xs and Os but rather respect and whether the coach has a general understanding on how to win basketball games:

1. shoot high percentage shots (preferably near the basket)
2. stop teams from shooting high percentage shots
3. and if you accomplish #2, rebound the damned basketball (and have players on the floor that can accomplish this).

It's really as simple as that.

It's what LB preaches. It's what popovich preaches (who studied at the school of LB). It's what Phil Jackson preaches. It's what John Wooden continues to preach whenever anyone is wise enough to listen.

If Michael Curry understands this then we'll be fine.

59 wins...wasted season. Funny.

I swear some of you johnny come latelys should experience a true wasted season, like back in the early 80's or mid 90's.

I'm ok with Firing Flip Saunders, so long as the rest of the team is broomed out of town with him. They're more at fault for this than he is.

Since Joe has made it crystal clear that he's saving his truth wrath for the players that fucked up, I'm ok with letting Flip go.

I'm not going to blame Dumars for anything. We had legitimate shots to win a title, and we didn't.

So to say he "wasted our time" the last three seasons, you've got to be fucking kidding me...

I swear some of you johnny come latelys should experience a true wasted season, like back in the early 80's or mid 90's.
This is why so many people can't stand you. There are plenty of Piston fans older than your arrogant ass who've sat through the same seasons you have. Even here.

We banned Diddy instead of this guy. At least Diddy is fucking funny.

This is why so many people can't stand you. There are plenty of Piston fans older than your arrogant ass who've sat through the same seasons you have. Even here.

And I can't stand people who call 59 wins and a conference finals appearance a "wasted season," so we're even.

If you don't like it, that's on you.

And if you're old enough to have gone through the shitty years, then you'd understand that.

If you're old enough to have gone through them and have the nerve to compare this season to those, then you're an idiot. I really don't care if that comes off as arrogant or not, it is what it is.

We banned Diddy instead of Fool. At least Diddy had some IQ points to work with....

They win 50+ with me as coach. The playoffs are what he's saying is wasted you mental midget.

They win 50+ with me as coach.

Yes, I'm sure you'd win 50 games as a head coach in the NBA. Clearly, you're the smartest and most realistic person in the room.

The Pistons would win 50+ with anyone as coach.

Fuck man, you seriously have no clue. Go back to scouring McCosky articles looking for support for your hopes and dreams.

The Pistons would win 50+ with anyone as coach.


Yep, anybody off the street is capable of coaching the very calm and self-controlled talents of Richard Hamilton, Rasheed Wallace and Chauncey Billups. They're all a coach's dream. They way they all show up and work hard every night, not once letting their mental focus go, it's a wonder Joe didn't just coach the team himself.

So, has Dumars interviewed you for the job yet?

And I can't stand people who call 59 wins and a conference finals appearance a "wasted season," so we're even.
Why does the rtegular season results matter so much to you. What exactly about Flip brings you to such loyalty over detroit?

No, you're right. A team with 3 current all-stars and a 2nd team all-defensive team member is a coaching nightmare. How has Dumars convinced anyone to coach the team the last 6 years?

Yep, anybody off the street is capable of coaching the very calm and self-controlled talents of Richard Hamilton, Rasheed Wallace and Chauncey Billups. They're all a coach's dream. They way they all show up and work hard every night, not once letting their mental focus go, it's a wonder Joe didn't just coach the team himself.
Every coach we hired in dumars regime has won 50+...I dont get your point. That its a tough situation? Yep it is, easy situations are for teams that dont want to win anything. Phil Jackson has to get dennis rodman, scottie pippen and a very ego aware MJ to all work together, he had to work out the kobe/shaq beefs. The only championship coach in a supposed easy situation in SA is Popps, and thats probably farce since he calls his team out quite often.

Why does the rtegular season results matter so much to you. What exactly about Flip brings you to such loyalty over detroit?

Regular season matters to me because that's the the foundation for every season.

Only one team can win the championship every year, and in a 30-team league, that can't always be you.

I've seen what happens when you take the regular season for granted and just start blowing up the roster for the future. Like Dumars said today, the idea that you can make yourself bad and turn it around just like that is a fallacy.

I also have the stinging memories of 1993, 1994, 1995 and 1998, years that we we so bad that it would almost set off a fucking holiday if we every strung 2 wins together in the same month.

So long as I remember that, I'll never take another 50+ win season for granted. Never.

I also just said I have no problem letting Flip go, so long as the players were broomed out with him.

I think Flip was a major part in the collapses of 2007 and 2006, but he did everything he was asked for the entire 2008 season, and his players threw him under the bus.

It would have sent a terrible message to the players if yet another coach was scapegoated for the players not doing their jobs like grown fucking men.

No, you're right. A team with 3 current all-stars and a 2nd team all-defensive team member is a coaching nightmare. How has Dumars convinced anyone to coach the team the last 6 years?
No, he's right about this Fool, what he's wrong about is that being an excuse in favor of a coach who knew all this before he took the job.

No, you're right. A team with 3 current all-stars and a 2nd team all-defensive team member is a coaching nightmare. How has Dumars convinced anyone to coach the team the last 6 years?

What coach wouldn't love to have Rasheed Wallace as his best player? I mean, the guy hows up every day and works his but off...oh wait, nevermind.

No, he's right about this Fool, what he's wrong about is that being an excuse in favor of a coach who knew all this before he took the job.

No, I admit Flip knew the risks coming in, which is why, despite the fact he won 72 games out of every 100 with us, he put himself in jeopardy of losing his job.

I'm just saying, he walked into the toughest coaching job in the NBA. The precedent had already been set; the players win, the coach loses.

I applaud him for taking the job. He did this franchise a favor by proving this team was basically uncoachable and needs to be chopped up with a machete.

The only championship coach in a supposed easy situation in SA is Popps, and thats probably farce since he calls his team out quite often.

Tim Duncan is in Popp's corner. That makes his job as easy as it can possibly be.

His best player controls the locker room for him by being the good soldier.

Rasheed Wallace is the anti-Duncan. He shows up 1/2 the time, acts and plays out of control and openly defies his coach.

You tell me which coach had it easier.

No, he's right about this Fool, what he's wrong about is that being an excuse in favor of a coach who knew all this before he took the job.

He's wrong in that he's talking about regular season wins as his barometer for success.



I think Flip was a major part in the collapses of 2007 and 2006, but he did everything he was asked for the entire 2008 season, and his players threw him under the bus.

This he, and all those who've also said it, is right about. Flip was fired because of his performance prior to this year and the player's performance this year. I didn't hate Flip at the end of this year like I did at the end of last year because he did what he was supposed to do. The players are far more heavily to blame for the Celtic losses than Flip. The team wasn't out coached, it was out played.

That "Rasheed as your best player" line is garbage equivocation though. Maybe he's the most talented, but he's not the best player and Kstat knows it all to well.

I'm just saying, he walked into the toughest coaching job in the NBA. The precedent had already been set; the players win, the coach loses.

There we disagree. Every year he had an entire season to set up for the two months that actually counted. He couldn't figure out his one objective, get one round further than the players can get on their own. There are plenty of teams harder to coach than the Pistons.

That "Rasheed as your best player" line is garbage equivocation though. Maybe he's the most talented, but he's not the best player and Kstat knows it all to well.

If your most talented player is not one of your best players, you have a problem.

There are plenty of teams harder to coach than the Pistons.

Find me one that fires you for not reaching the NBA finals. That's a really tough goal to set.

Every coach who's ever been fired was fired for not making the finals, except Brown the year he courted the Cleveland job during the playoffs.

Regular season matters to me because that's the the foundation for every season.
Its not the result. So using it as an result is wrong.


Only one team can win the championship every year, and in a 30-team league, that can't always be you.
But thats not our expectations. You know this already, why should i have to tell you that. I'm not gonna rub the firing in, but please dont ask people to explain things you already know.



I've seen what happens when you take the regular season for granted and just start blowing up the roster for the future. Like Dumars said today, the idea that you can make yourself bad and turn it around just like that is a fallacy.
So our regular seasons didnt have a play in our post season lazy content failure, but they are the foundation? You're being choosy.


I also have the stinging memories of 1993, 1994, 1995 and 1998, years that we we so bad that it would almost set off a fucking holiday if we every strung 2 wins together in the same month.
We all have, with a better understanding of it than you had back then. And the 80's too losing to the celts too damn much. But more than that Joe D played through it. You have more faith in Flip than Joe to avoid it and keep us competitive?


So long as I remember that, I'll never take another 50+ win season for granted. Never.
But you are. You're taking them for granted as success in an era that expects far more. You can call them success when we are a bad team not expected to do anything. You are being complacent in those wins and dont even know it.


I also just said I have no problem letting Flip go, so long as the players were broomed out with him.
Fuck stipulations. We made not be able to trade the players you want gone and they may still be here. You give credit to Flip in our 50 win seasons, But blame the players when it doesnt measure up in the post season. Now you want everyone gone but preach keep the 50 win seasons alive?


I think Flip was a major part in the collapses of 2007 and 2006, but...
But? But what? He did what he was told rather than doing it on his own? I dont want a coach to win by doing whats asked. But by doing what he knows can get us wins. And its only after 2008 is over that you acknowledge his role in our past failures, something you did not do at the time. A lil' late. Sounds like a flip flop to avoid not feeling alone(though maybe SDB agrees) on the real idea that he did alright in your mind. a few pages ago you were celebrating him staying no?


It would have sent a terrible message to the players if yet another coach was scapegoated for the players not doing their jobs like grown fucking men.
Well that hasn't happened. So what is your point?

Tim Duncan is in Popp's corner. That makes his job as easy as it can possibly be..
Which has something to do with Popp more than Duncan. People were in LB's corner, so its not like they just bailed on coach after coach.

Every coach who's ever been fired was fired for not making the finals, except Brown the year he courted for the Cleveland job during the playoffs.
Absolutely true.

So long as I remember that, I'll never take another 50+ win season for granted. Never.
But you are. You're taking them for granted as success in an era that expects far more. You can call them success when we are a bad team not expected to do anything. You are being complacent in those wins and dont even know it.


Gutz owns.

I'm not going to blame Dumars for anything. We had legitimate shots to win a title, and we didn't.

So to say he "wasted our time" the last three seasons, you've got to be fucking kidding me...

This season was a wasted season. The first 2 of the flip regime were not wastes...even he deserved a chance to prove the naysayers wrong.

You have to blame dumars for the decision to hire flip and for keeping him around for a 3rd season when it was blatantly obvious we weren't going to win anything with flip. Joe Dumars is the ultimate decision maker for this team therefore he must be held accountable over everyone else. It's what comes when you're the boss.

When your GM says he's all about winning championships and still decides to keep a coach that the players don't respect, only plays guys that hit jumpers, doesn't preach high percentage shot opportunities and doesn't think defending the rim/rebounding is anything impt. then he must be held accountable for the decision to keep him around and for providing flip with these players (similar to the coach and players need to be held accountable for their performances)

I don't see why people think Joe D. is a saint. He's obviously one of the best in the business but he's not perfect.

But you are. You're taking them for granted as success in an era that expects far more. You can call them success when we are a bad team not expected to do anything. You are being complacent in those wins and dont even know it.

More is expected because of the great regular seasons.

If this team suddenly fell into 40-win mediocrity, we wouldn't be expecting finals berths, now would we?

a 50+ win season signifies that, at the very worst, you're still an elite team. Anything can happen in the playoffs, and even quality teams don't always perform to expectations.

Your expectation of a finals is based off of the great regular seasons they have, which prove they are indeed important and should not be taken for granted.

Yargs you cant say you woulda found a better coach at the time. Outside of holding LB shit bag all year, he made the choice he felt right about at the time.

They win 50+ with me as coach. The playoffs are what he's saying is wasted you mental midget.

Fool, thanks for understanding my point. And I actually enjoyed watching the regular season as we as fans received the opportunity to see the younger players perform with regularity, something that hasn't happend too often in the past. I enjoyed that.

I didn't enjoy having to wait for the inevitable failure come playoff time. The playoffs sucked this year (other than stuckey stepping in to replace chauncey billups in a starting role while injured...and the team went 2-0 with tayshaun and rip having some of their best games without chauncey...but I digress).

And then we got to see flip shorten his bench once again when the "real" season began for no explicable reason (and when his bench shortening philosophy hadn't worked the previous 2 seasons).

Anyway. It's nice to see Joe make a change that, in my opinion, came 1 year too late.

Rasheed Wallace's trade value is much better this year than last because of his expiring contract, so I don't think he was ina position to make a big move regardless.

Gutz owns.

I agree. Gutz is completely owning right now. I need to sit back, shut up and listen.

More is expected because of the great regular seasons.
No, dont know where you got that. Our expectations were built on the two finals runs beforehand.


If this team suddenly fell into 40-win mediocrity, we wouldn't be expecting finals berths, now would we?
You're making my point for me. Enjoy 50 win years when we are supposed to win 40.


a 50+ win season signifies that, at the very worst, you're still an elite team. Anything can happen in the playoffs, and even quality teams don't always perform to expectations.
Not in the east. You dont think Cleveland is elite, so i doubt its a legit measuring stick. Either way thats complacency on your part to find satisfaction in that.



Your expectation of a finals is based off of the great regular seasons they have, which prove they are indeed important and should not be taken for granted.
again no, we didnt have the best record in both years we went. Again you say its a foundation but it is not a result. your result is when you go home. If its before you expected then you failed.

You're making my point for me. Enjoy 50 win years when we are supposed to win 40.

We were supposed to win 45-48 this year. %80 of the national media picked the cavs or bulls to win the division, and half of them picked BOTH of them to supplant us.

We went out and won 59 2nd best record in the entire league, something nobody saw coming.

Had we won 50 or less, nobody would have been surprised.

And yet we went out and lost to the only team that had a better regular season, and all of a sudden it's a shock, and we had a wasted year.