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Thread: Blu Ray Vs. Hd-dvd in gaming possibilities

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    Blu Ray Vs. Hd-dvd in gaming possibilities

    HD-DVD=chosen format for XBOX
    Blu Ray=Chosen format for ps3

    The Showdown: Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD
    Posted by Admin on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 06:39 am: [ Submit News ] [ Reply ]
    By Michael Grebb

    Alan Parsons wishes it wasn't so. But like it or not, the senior vice president of Pioneer's industrial solutions business group has become a wary foot soldier in the battle over the future of the DVD format. As music blares from a band playing at a nearby exhibit at the 2005 International CES, Parsons sits at a small table in a meeting room contemplating how the next couple of years might play out. He remains relatively reserved, trying not to let his passion for the next-generation Blu-Ray Disc format devolve into vitriol against rival format HD-DVD. "I don't like the rock throwing," he insists. "I just want to excite consumers."

    That may be true, but Parsons still finds it hard to resist getting in a few digs on the HD-DVD rival, which at about 15 gigabytes per layer has roughly 40 percent less storage capacity than the Blu-Ray format. "They might end up with something ho-hum," he says. "They're saying that [their capacity] is good, but people used to think that five gigs was good enough." Parsons shrugs his shoulders a bit, wearing a look of calm but certain exasperation. "Why would we limit ourselves to a lower capacity?" he asks.

    To be sure, Parsons is among several CE manufacturers backing the Blu-Ray format, which they claim is superior to HD-DVD. But the HD-DVD format has its own backers, who while fewer in numbers, are equally adamant that their format will win out because of its lower transition and manufacturing costs—as well as other technical benefits and its expected quicker time to market. Indeed, either format is a vast improvement over the current DVD design, which maxes out at about 4.7 gigabytes. Even at standard-definition quality, that's barely enough space for a two-hour movie and a few hours of special features. And with that much space, forget about high-definition TV.

    VHS vs. Beta all over Again?

    Both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs enable HDTV reproduction because of their massive storage capacities. Using dual-layer techniques, HD-DVD can store as much as 30 gigabytes of data while a Blu-Ray disc can pack in a whopping 50 gigabytes. In the lab, techies already are working on several-layered discs that could allow more than 100 gigabytes of storage on one disc. That's enough for several HDTV movies, special features and compelling interactive content. Or a content provider could put more than 100 hours of standard-definition quality programming on one DVD. All 180 episodes of Seinfeld on one disc, anyone?

    The benefits for backward compatibility are clear: new players will be able to handle both old and new DVD formats in the same machine (outfitted with both red- and blue-laser diodes)—a major consumer benefit that manufacturers hope will drive unit sales.

    Blu-Ray and HD-DVD both use blue lasers, which operate at lower wavelengths (405 nanometers) than current red lasers (650 nanometers). That microscopic difference goes a long way. Longer wavelengths suffer more diffraction, which limits their ability to focus tightly on a surface. But a blue laser's shorter wavelength allows it to read and write data over a much tighter surface area, which in turn allows storage of far more data on a disc that's roughly the same diameter of current DVDs. The benefits for backward compatibility are clear: New players will be able to handle both old and new DVD formats in the same machine (outfitted with both red- and blue-laser diodes)—a major consumer benefit that manufacturers hope will drive unit sales.

    But while consumers won't have to worry about obsolescence when it comes to their old DVD collections, the format war brewing between new Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs does present an age-old problem that evokes the VHS vs. Beta fiasco of the 1980s. The HD-DVD format—like the VHS format that won out over Beta—could become far more widely available to consumers sooner and at a lower price (at least initially) than Blu-Ray discs. That's because the HD-DVD format utilizes manufacturing techniques very similar to those used for the current generation of DVDs. Translation: Third-party duplication houses won't have to retool their factories significantly to make HD-DVDs a reality. That means that HD-DVD discs likely will be the first to market by at least several months, probably by the end of 2005.

    On the other hand, Blu-Ray discs require an entirely new manufacturing process with transition costs borne largely by duplicators (unless Blu-Ray backers devise a subsidy system. That, along with other issues, is expected to delay the introduction of Blu-Ray discs until sometime in 2006, which could hand a major advantage to the HD-DVD format. (add hard return here) "In this kind of battle, the guy who is out there first and cheaper is going to be the winner," says Fariborz Ghadar, director for the Center for Global Business Studies at Penn State University. "The more expensive and later one is going to be the loser." (The Blu-Ray camp contends that it will bring manufacturing costs nearly in line with HD-DVD during the next year. Parsons says that HD-DVD's cost advantage will amount to only "pennies" per disc over the Blu-Ray format). (add hard return here as well) "Unlike Blu-Ray discs, HD-DVD discs can be manufactured with similar equipment in the same plants that make current DVDs," said Jodi Sally, vice president of marketing for Toshiba America Consumer Products digital audio video products.

    Duking It Out

    Still, the nature of the next-generation rollout itself may force consumers to take sides early. Because of the vastly different physical attributes of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs, it's cost-prohibitive for manufacturers to produce next-generation players that can handle both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD formats in one machine. "You would need two pickup heads, and it would be very expensive," explains Stephen Balogh, business development manager at Intel's corporate technology group. So manufacturers have lined up on opposite sides of the fence, ready to produce players that only work with one or the other format. That could spell consumer confusion as buyers fear picking the wrong one and ending up with an obsolete player and content library.

    Each side wants to convince consumers that they should avoid the other side's format. HD-DVD backers are planning a "you want it, and we're here now" marketing strategy, whereas the Blu-Ray camp largely plans to adopt a "we won't be first, but we'll be better" campaign designed to warn consumers away from HD-DVD.

    So what's the breakdown of forces on each side? On the Blu-Ray side is a large group of CE manufacturers, including Dell, Hewlett Packard, Hitachi, LG Electronics, Mitsubishi Electric, Panasonic (Matsushita Electric), Pioneer, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp, Sony, TDK and Thomson. Some content providers also are onboard. In addition to obvious backing from Sony-affiliated movie studios Sony Pictures Entertainment and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, the Walt Disney Company and its home-video division Buena Vista Entertainment offered its non-exclusive endorsement of Blu-Ray in December. In addition, video gaming powerhouse Electronic Arts, along with Vivendi Universal Games, both came out for Blu-Ray at the 2005 International CES in January.

    Most gaming companies have yet to pick sides, although Blu-Ray's larger storage capacity may win some of them over. "If you show Blu-Ray to a game manufacturer and say you can have an extra 20 gigabytes of storage, it's a drop-dead deal," says Blu-Ray backer Richard Doherty, managing director for Blu-Ray and professional AV at Panasonic Hollywood Labs. Of course, most PC-based games haven't even moved up to the current generation of DVDs from CDs, so it's unclear whether most gaming companies will utilize high-definition DVD formats for some time.

    The main backer of the HD-DVD format is Toshiba, which by itself has more market dominance than several CE backers on the Blu-Ray side combined, along with smaller players NEC and Sanyo. Toshiba plans to launch its first HD-DVD players in late 2005. In December, even Thomson—which is actually a Blu-Ray disc backer—announced that it also would sell HD-DVD players by late 2005. And an impressive list of entertainment content companies has thrown their weight behind HD-DVD, including Paramount, Universal Studios and Warner Bros. (along with Time Warner-owned New Line Cinema). All of these studios have already announced a significant amount of titles on HD-DVD to be available at the time HD-DVD players are introduced.

    Toshiba is dedicated to the HD-DVD format and executives staunchly believe they will win the marketing battle for consumers even before Blu-Ray gets its format off the ground in 2006. "The key part of this is going to be driven by content," says Maciek Brzeski, vice president of marketing in Toshiba's storage device division.

    He says consumers won't care whether the disc has 30 gigabytes or 50 gigabytes of capacity—only that the content they want is ready and available at a good price. Brzeski questions the Blu-Ray camp's ability to jazz consumers about a format that he says offers little more than a few extra gigabytes of storage. "They're going to be marketing technology, and we're going to be marketing products," he says. "It's hard to sell technology to consumers."

    "Our rich heritage in the development of DVD technology means that we are well equipped for the market transition from DVD to HD-DVD," added Sally, who also serves as Vice-President for the Digital Entertainment Group. "With proven backwards compatibility and real software titles available at launch, we are certain that we can deliver the very best solution in HD-DVD technology for both consumers as well as the content providers."

    In December, Toshiba and other HD-DVD backers formed the HD-DVD Promotion Group to promote the format, and to ensure early product launches and subsequent market penetration.

    Other pros and cons seem to bleed together as both formats offer similar features. For example, while HD-DVD touts the ability to create discs with red-laser standard DVD format on one side and blue-laser HD-DVD standard on the other, a Blu-Ray Disc Association spokeswoman points out that JVC announced in December a disc that allows both standard DVD and Blu-Ray content on a single side of the disc. The Blu-Ray camp has argued that single-sided discs are more consumer friendly.

    The Pricing Strategy

    In the vital area of picture quality, both formats also have a difficult time differentiating between one another. "Either format can produce a very good image," says Richard Dean, director of technical business development at THX Inc. "To me, it boils down to the price of the equipment and the availability of content."

    Dean, who has helped master the DVD releases of the Star Wars trilogy and other blockbuster movies, says that consumers won't notice any real quality difference between the formats. But he says HD-DVD may end up with an advantage if it can under price Blu-Ray discs and players. "I think that's going to play a very large role." As for Blu-Ray's greater storage capacity, "more space is always an advantage," Dean says, "but the question is how much more space is really needed." Notes Parsons: "If you start doing HD bonus features, it will suck up capacity very quickly."

    Intel executives, who first got involved in the working groups for next-generation DVD formats to help avoid a format war, already are bracing for an era of consumer confusion as a Blu-Ray-vs.-HD-DVD scenario takes shape. "We didn't want two formats coming out," says Balogh. "Now we have an even standoff, so neither side wants to compromise whatsoever." Making matters worse, he says, the entertainment studios also are split between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, although more big studios have backed HD-DVD at this point.

    "The studios will be the kingmakers here," he says. Ultimately, consumers may struggle to figure out what kind of players and media to purchase during the next couple of years. "The most important benefit to the consumer is that the HD-DVD players that we'll be introducing to the market this year will be fully backward compatible with the current DVDs that are already in consumers' homes. With the Blu-Ray formats' backward compatibility isn't so simple," adds Sally.

    Still, many are wary. "It would be best if we went to market without two formats," says Panasonic's Doherty. "We're very disappointed that we're in a format war." As the battle heats up in 2005 and well into 2006, consumers will decide which format will succeed.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD-DVD

    http://www.blu-ray.com/info/
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    Blu Ray Pricing on Movies released
    POSTED: 2/28/2006 11:03 AM


    ionsgate today announced plans to release 10 titles on the next-generation high-definition Blu-ray Disc to coincide with the arrival of the first commercially offered BD players in stores. The first wave, available at retail on May 23, will include Crash and Lord of War, priced at a $39.99, and The Punisher, Saw and Terminator 2: Judgment Day, marked at a $29.99. The second wave with five additional titles will follow shortly thereafter with a June/July date still to be determined. These BD titles include Reservoir Dogs, Total Recall, Stargate and Frank Herbert's Dune priced at $29.99, while The Devil’s Rejects will be available at a $39.99. The announcement was made by Lionsgate President Steve Beeks.

    "There has never been a home entertainment experience available to mass audiences like Blu-ray, and Lionsgate is pleased to be providing some of our top-line product at launch for consumers to enjoy," said Beeks. "As a company, we have always been at the forefront in utilizing technology to offer consumers the best viewing experience. Watching a film in your living room is about to radically change forever and we can't wait to maximize Blu-ray's technological capabilities and see for ourselves how far we can take the home movie-watching experience."

    We’ve always known that Blu-ray and HD-DVD discs were going to be more expensive than regular DVDs, but this is the first time we’ve received any solid pricing information. Even though $40 is a lot to spend on a movie, at least we can take comfort in the fact that this could force the price of DVDs to drop. Remember how cheap VHS tapes got after DVDs blew up?
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  3. #3
    Twice the price will never work.
    STEW BEEF!

  4. #4
    The Healer Black Dynamite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fool
    Twice the price will never work.
    Well thats the market at the moment. I expect it to drop like DVD did later on about 5-10 dollars less.. Remember DVD's came out at about 29.99 per DVD standard pricing. so it could be in the Mid 30's range for the higher next level discs and 29.99 for the lower on sale ones.
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  5. #5
    The question in these type of wars is always whether they establish themselves before something better comes along. Remember those giant CD looking things? (For some reason their name escapes me) Anyone actually own (and still use) a mini disk player (maybe a camcorder or a Gamecube)?

    Optical media formats have a very short time left (IMO). I would guess that if either of these formats gains enough market share to become prevelant, their reign will be short lived. I've got a Netflix account (which sends DVDs through the mail). As soon as I can download my selections in the form of a file that corrupts itself after a certain amount of uses the better. Its pretty silly to have to wait 2 days for these silly plastic disks to be passed back and forth.
    STEW BEEF!

  6. #6
    The Healer Black Dynamite's Avatar
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    Well with Warner Bros. jumping ship to Blu Ray, Blu Ray now has 70 percent of the market. Seems HD-DVD is falling fast. In fact they could lose Paramount too as Paramount has a clause in their contract with HD-DVD that states if warner goes Blu Ray exclusive, they can option out.


    Now I always found it weird that "experts" predicted a HD-DVD takeover with sales never coming close to Blu Ray. Is Microsoft really pushing HD-DVD or just pushing something to hold people hold off until they make a move for digital downloads?

    Something from Michael Bay:
    What you don't understand is corporate politics. Microsoft wants both formats to fail so they can be heroes and make the world move to digital downloads. That is the dirty secret no one is talking about. That is why Microsoft is handing out $100 million dollar checks to studios just embrace the HD DVD and not the leading, and superior Blu Ray. They want confusion in the market until they perfect the digital downloads. Time will tell and you will see the truth.
    http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=415

    Maybe its bs, but I couldnt put it past Microsoft. Especially after this.
    Sore Loser? Bill Gates Declares Downloads Are the Future, Not Hi-Def DVD
    Jan 8th 2008

    Warner Brothers' decision to side with Blu-Ray has caused early HD-DVD adopters to feel like losers while Blu-Ray supporters are gleefully congratulating themselves for their great foresight. On the assumption that the format wars are actually over -- not everybody agrees -- you might think this would be the final nail in the coffin for Bill Gates. He's already halfway out the door at HD-DVD backer Microsoft, but multi-billionaire Bill has always been a positive thinker.

    When USA Today asked for his reaction, he replied in part: "HD DVD did well over the holidays. The other trend we're seeing is that direct download over broadband - I think the greatest example of that is XBox Live - (is) becoming an important choice. Over time, that will be the dominant way that people get their movies."

    Is he trying to say everybody loses? I think he's just acknowledging that high-def DVD is only a stopgap measure. The format wars may or may not have fostered innovation and lower hardware prices, but the elephant in the room has been downloading over broadband, an idea whose time has finally (apparently) come. In addition to XBox Live, Netflix recently announced a deal with LG for a new download box, Apple is talking about renting movies through iTunes, Sony is hinting they'll roll out something similar to XBox Live for the Playstation 3 this year, and so on and so on.

    Why does this matter for movie fans? Beyond the obvious, if you have an interest in non-blockbusters and don't live in one of a handful of big cities, movie downloading holds the prospect of opening up the playing field to smaller distributors and independent filmmakers. Right now we tend to look down on films that go straight to DVD (or iTunes), but if Radiohead can make a success of a completely independent release structure, why can't filmmakers?
    http://www.cinematical.com/2008/01/0...future-not-hi/

    Mr Oobir believes Vista is a conspiracy, why not this too?
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  7. #7
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    Microsoft's Xbox could consider Blu-ray support

    * Reuters
    * Tuesday January 8 2008

    LAS VEGAS, Jan 8 (Reuters) - Microsoft Corp's Xbox video gaming unit still fully backs Toshiba Corp's HD-DVD high-definition DVD format but could consider supporting Sony Corp's rival Blu-ray technology should consumers want it, an executive said on Tuesday.
    "It should be consumer choice; and if that's the way they vote, that's something we'll have to consider," Albert Penello, group marketing manager for Xbox hardware said when asked whether Microsoft would support a Blu-ray DVD accessory in the event that HD-DVD failed.
    Microsoft does not believe the surprise decision last week by Time Warner Inc unit Warner Bros., the top seller of home movies, to abandon HD-DVD format in favor of Blu-ray should affect sales of its Xbox 360 video game console, Penello said.
    "I fundamentally don't think ... this has a significant impact on Xbox 360 versus (Sony's) PlayStation 3," Penello told Reuters in an interview at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas. (Reporting by Scott Hillis, editing by Gerald E. McCormick)
    I do agree with the bold statement. But thats because Microsoft never really committed to having HD-DVD in their set up(the separate add on thing was a bad idea). Again makes me wonder if that "cause confusion" conspiracy Bay claims is closer to the actual set up than they would admit.
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  8. #8
    Fuck digital downloads. There's something... Ohh, I don't know... Tangible and provable about having a disc.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by e-ray
    Fuck digital downloads. There's something... Ohh, I don't know... Tangible and provable about having a disc.
    Then again, there's ITunes.showing that when digital downloads are convenient, easy and priced right... nobody cares about that little round piece of plastic any more.

  10. #10
    Good point. I feel like movies are a little different than music for whatever reason, be it the video in addition to the audio or something.. I'm not sure.

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