Does Harbaugh have an axe to grind?

[Jethro34]

I'm glad the link is there now, because you obviously overlooked some other important percentages there. Hopefully everyone can go and see the whole story, based on numbers that are 3 1/2 years old. You'll see that at the time, while the football numbers looked less than outstanding, the school as a whole graduated a higher percentage of student athletes than any other school on the list.

By the way, I really love how this always gravitates toward race.
Are we to believe there are more black kids who don't know how to study than there are white kids who don't know how to study? It's interesting that more often than not, people that just so happen to be black are in a round about way calling black people dumb and blaming white people. Last I checked, every student that came through my class had the exact same opportunity in there. Racism is a funny thing, since it's implied the majority race is the one that's most racist, when I generally see it being more prominant amongst minorities. Different debate, different thread, sorry to bring it up. All I know is I don't give a crap whether a kid is white, black, tan, male, female, pretty, ugly as sin, tall, short, skinny, chubby, etc. I differentiate my teaching to give opportunities to everyone in the room and I care about every single one finding success. (excuse my rant if it put you to sleep)

[Jethro34]

First of all, it's two CENTS, not two sense. You're killing the white graduation rate! (hopefully you get that I'm totally killing and mocking parts of this thread)

Second, don't pretend like you're the first person to mention Slocum. I mentioned him early on and said there were inconsistencies and I didn't know or understand what all goes on. As for Rogers, looks like I said prove it, then you said prove it, but nobody has any proof to offer. Bottom line - nobody but Charles and UM officials really knows what happened, and it's not likely anyone is willing to trust either, so we'll never know.

[Artermis]

What do you want to know about Slocum?

He worked his ass off to get into UM. He needs to pass 1 summer class and he will be on the team this fall.

He is what every player, who got in trouble in school should be, no matter their color should strive to be. Pesistent and making amends for his poor school work his first 2 years in HS.

People pick out the parts of the article that represents their argument in the best possible light.

[xanadu]

Those numbers didn't look right to me, so I went to the NCAA site to get the numbers for big 10 footballs teams.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/!ut/p...rate_data.html

You have to look at each team individually, so I copied down the results. Michigan is third, behind Northwestern and Penn State.

So where does MSU rank? Fighting with Minnesota for last place and about 25% worse than Michigan.

Note that the columns are arranged as 1) previous 4-year average federal rate, and 2) GSR- NCAA formula to account for students that leave the university in good standing.

Unfortunately for UM, the black graduation rate is less impressive than the overall rate and should be higher. As a side note, when I was a freshman at UM, Biakabutuka and another football player shared a dorm room in the same area as a friend of mine. So I am pretty sure that Biakabutuka didn't get the reggie bush/chris webber treatment in AA. I met Biakabutuka's roommate once when we were both waiting for other people. His name was Brent something and I don't remember him playing much. Anyways, he was black and I remember asking him how he liked UM and he said that he was having fun. I didn't ask him if he felt like a slave, but it was implied that he did not.

Michigan
(fed rate) (GSR)
63 71

Michigan State
39 45

Indiana
57 71

Illinois
53 67

Iowa
56 65

Penn state
76 80

Ohio state
58 60

Wisconsin
51 62

Northwestern
79 91

Purdue
56 68

Minnesota
44 44

[Jethro34]

I can certainly attest to kids turning around academically. Look at me as an example.

During HS I could care less about academics. Although I attended a gifted and talented elementary (with inner-city kids of all ethnicities that were bussed in from some of the poorest areas of Saginaw County at no cost to their parents) I ended up at a white, middle class high school and blew off many classes. All this while not working any job and not participating in any sports. So I had plenty of time for school work, I just didn't want to do it. I took 4 years of choir, 2 years of art, 1 year of PE and the bare minimum in math and science. In spite of an easy schedule, I only had a 2.7 GPA. (would have been closer to 2.0 or worse had I taken more math and science instead of choir). I only took the ACT once because I wasn't interested and I got a 23, evidence that the potential was there but the work ethic was not. Many of these kids don't have the potential, and maybe they have the work ethic, maybe they don't. They certainly spend more time studying plays than I ever spent studying algebra.
So my college choices were limited, but I took college seriously and between the University of Utah and Saginaw Valley State I graduated near the top of my class, though I took my time doing it. I'm enrolling in a master's program soon and will likely end up with a Doctorate degree as well.

Bottom line - if I had been judged strictly on my high school record and whether or not I had a degree within the first 4-5 years following high school, I would be considerred a poor student. Yet I managed to outperform 95% of my classmates in college. Tell Harbaugh to stick that up his cornhole and play back tapes of him blowing a season and handing a NC to freaking BYU compliments of bending over for them in the 1984 Holiday Bowl. Nice work, Jim.

[xanadu]

I'm glad the link is there now, because you obviously overlooked some other important percentages there. Hopefully everyone can go and see the whole story, based on numbers that are 3 1/2 years old. You'll see that at the time, while the football numbers looked less than outstanding, the school as a whole graduated a higher percentage of student athletes than any other school on the list.

By the way, I really love how this always gravitates toward race.
Are we to believe there are more black kids who don't know how to study than there are white kids who don't know how to study? It's interesting that more often than not, people that just so happen to be black are in a round about way calling black people dumb and blaming white people. Last I checked, every student that came through my class had the exact same opportunity in there. Racism is a funny thing, since it's implied the majority race is the one that's most racist, when I generally see it being more prominant amongst minorities. Different debate, different thread, sorry to bring it up. All I know is I don't give a crap whether a kid is white, black, tan, male, female, pretty, ugly as sin, tall, short, skinny, chubby, etc. I differentiate my teaching to give opportunities to everyone in the room and I care about every single one finding success. (excuse my rant if it put you to sleep)

This point assumes that all classrooms are the same. If you go to a classroom in Detroit (predominantly black), it is a much different than going to a classroom in Birmingham or Monroe (predominantly white). If you take a black kid from a suburb, there is no reason not to hold him/her to the same standards as white kids from the suburbs. However, it would be silly to assume that a black kid in Detroit has had the same educational experience as a white kid in a better school district. I've done some tutoring in Detroit schools, and I can tell you that Detroit schools generally suck. Classes are too big and teachers are undersupplied, burned out, and often don't show up. I also lived in Detroit for a year after college, but I had to move because I was tired to getting robbed (and I lived near Wayne State, which is pretty nice for Detroit). It was fine for me to live there as a young guy, but I shudder to think of trying to raise kids there.

[Jethro34]

I can't understand people talking about these kids like they're slaves. Horrible analogy.
Were they kidnapped from their native land against their will and sold to the highest bidder?
No, they make they choice to sign a LOI and in return for their efforts are given the OPPORTUNITY to gain a world class education. If they take advantage of it, excellent.
They are highly encouraged to do just that, and obviously that encouragement is somewhat successful, but if they take it for granted that's their choice. I would say they are much better off than they would be had they not been given a free education. What is their alternative? Tell me about that and then tell me why it's justified to rip UM here.

Is UM ELITE (everyone's favorite word here) among universities in terms of the standards for athletes to get in? I don't know and I don't care. They seem to do ok. They certainly aren't anywhere near the worst, but obviously not the best. That's fine. They're giving great kids every opportunity and the ones that don't take it can STFU because they're the ones that blew it. My alma mater had no obligation to employ me upon completion of my degree, yet you don't hear me - or the other thousands in the same boat - crying about it or comparing ourselves to a group of people that were wronged FAR worse in history.

[Jethro34]

This point assumes that all classrooms are the same. If you go to a classroom in Detroit (predominantly black), it is a much different than going to a classroom in Birmingham or Monroe (predominantly white). If you take a black kid from a suburb, there is no reason not to hold him/her to the same standards as white kids from the suburbs. However, it would be silly to assume that a black kid in Detroit has had the same educational experience as a white kid in a better school district. I've done some tutoring in Detroit schools, and I can tell you that Detroit schools generally suck. Classes are too big and teachers are undersupplied, burned out, and often don't show up. I also lived in Detroit for a year after college, but I had to move because I was tired to getting robbed (and I lived near Wayne State, which is pretty nice for Detroit). It was fine for me to live there as a young guy, but I shudder to think of trying to raise kids there.

Classrooms in my predominantly black school are horrible compared to schools outside the city. The technology is old or non-existant, the tables and chairs are broken mix-matches and the place makes Crisler Arena look bright and beautiful. That being said, any student that wants to take the opportunity seriously is capable of achieving just as much as those in the schools on the other end of the county. Problem is, for whatever reason, many fewer students choose not to take the oppotunity. Their parents haven't experienced success or expected it from them, so they continue the trend. The fact that the schools are run down simply gives them less to be excited about. Don't blame the schools, though, for not reversing it. Meanwhile, I think we're way off track from the original argument, which I willingly share the blame for.

[xanadu]

Classrooms in my predominantly black school are horrible compared to schools outside the city. The technology is old or non-existant, the tables and chairs are broken mix-matches and the place makes Crisler Arena look bright and beautiful. That being said, any student that wants to take the opportunity seriously is capable of achieving just as much as those in the schools on the other end of the county. Problem is, for whatever reason, many fewer students choose not to take the oppotunity. Their parents haven't experienced success or expected it from them, so they continue the trend. The fact that the schools are run down simply gives them less to be excited about. Don't blame the schools, though, for not reversing it. Meanwhile, I think we're way off track from the original argument, which I willingly share the blame for.

While the problems of inner-city youth are obviously multi-determined by family, neighborhood, schools, etc., my point is that it should not come as a surprise that an average student from a poor school district would struggle to get through UM, especially considering the time commitment for football in the fall semester. Further, if school A has an average ACT score of 27 and school B has an average score of 17, I would say that kids from school B have a significant disadvantage by the time they start college. I don't think that you can honestly say kids in school B have the same opportunities as kids in school A, but that school B kids just choose to be lazy. Rather, there are significantly larger societal hurdles for poor kids to overcome. I would guess that problems start at home and in the neighborhood, but continue through lower standards and less effective schooling. It is not impossible to succeed, but it sure is a lot harder than for the average upper middle class michigan student.


That said, I am sure that kids are better off going to michigan to play football than if they were excluded because of poor test scores. I just think the school should make a special effort to make sure that these kids show up to whatever classes they are enrolled in, work with tutors to catch up, and generally make the most of educational opportunities. Of course, it has to be a 2-way street and the university can't really force kids to graduate if they aren't working at all.

Incidentally, I also think that Detroit is an especially difficult place to grow up, even among inner cities. I have lived in Queens and in Oakland and I never really had a problem, but while in Detroit, I was mugged twice, just about everyone I've known has had their cars broken into, a couple of my neighbors had their houses broken into. I had to help pull an unconscious guy to the curb after he had been robbed and knocked out in the MIDDLE OF WOODWARD AVE on a sunday afternoon. Another friend of mine saw people breaking into her neighbor's house, called the police, and the police showed up 4 hours later and were pissed that my friend had the nerve to call 911 a second time. 12 year old kids sell drugs in the street. People honk their horn to let you know that they're going to run red lights. Getting back to the schools, it is not terribly uncommon for Detroit schools to rely on substitute teachers to cover for unfilled teaching slots for entire class years. Normally, I hold people accountable for their actions, but I would seriously doubt that I could successfully raise a kid there.

[JickBoy34]

this thread is so far out there now...wow