Kenny Rogers - Using Pine Tar?

[gusman]

I think McCarver and Buck were lying in wait. They knew the pine tar (or dirt) was an issue in the prior series becuase they already had the video footage. There was probably talk of it in the clubhouse. They are St Louis homers. They broadcast it knowing both teams have someone watching the game in the clubhouse. They did everything they could to entice LaRussa to make an issue of it. They basically said he should talk to the umpire during the inning. Fox zoomed in on Rogers hand. Fox was looking for it and tried to influence the game.

But LaRussa didn't take the bait because he knows that if he did, his team would be called on other infractions. The benefit to LaRussa was not to get Rogers out of the game, but to get Rogers to clean his hand. I think it was staged by Buck and McCarver for that reason and I think that is the real story here.

Rogers was lights out after the 1st inning. In fact, he pitched better with a "clean" hand. I think Fox had a storyline and was trying to catch Rogers if they saw any substance on his hand. This wasn't play-by-play, this was a pre-designed tactic by Buck and McCarver to pass information to the Cardinals and influence the game.

[Glenn]

That's an interesting angle gusman, and I've given the LaRussa/Leyland relationship a lot of thought in regards to this as well.

Everyone seems so surprised that Johnny Cash, I mean LaRussa, was so willing to just let this go. Do you think that Leyland knows a lot of LaRussa's tactics/tricks that he could expose if it really came to that? Do you think Leyland might even know of some of LaRussa's pitchers that have used pine tar in the past?

And yes, it does suck to have two current/former members of the Cardinals organization calling the games.

How shocking that Fox would be accused of creating news.

[Matt]

from a baseball perspective, he did pitch just as well if not better after he had cleaned his hand. in that sense, it doesn't seem like a big deal.

if you consider his intentions to cheat, the bigger issue.....is pine-tarring that frequent in the MLB? is this a case of "everyone does it" but turns a blind eye? did La Russa not make a big issue of it because he knew his pitchers were doing it? or because of his friendship w/ Leyland?

[Vinny]

I understand that - but grip for what? He doesn't throw with his palm. I understand they're saying he wiped his fingers on that smudge, but make that motion with your own hand - it's a little obvious - and it would wipe off after a minute. What I'm saying is - they have 500 camera angles to look at - if it shows him wiping his fingers on the smudge, wouldn't it have come out by now? I just feel like the media wants this to happen because it would give them something fun to talk about.

Not only that - he wasn't trying to hide it AT ALL. If you were blatently cheating, you'd be hiding it every chance you got.

He could real easily do it with his hands in his glove. It's not that hard and in this picture, for example, you can see it on his thumb. You just need a dash for better grip, the stuff's pretty sticky.

[Vinny]

I'm not torn. Its cheating. Its sad. Play by the rules. This is the only time he's been any good in the playoffs, maybe this is the reason. Even if its not, it doesn't matter.

EVERYONE fucking does it though. It's just like the greenies. Technically cheating but EVERYONE took 'em till this past year. I guarantee four our 5 Cardinals pitchers do it/did it, probably more cause they're all junk pitchers pretty much aside from Carpenter. It's just one of those things.

[Vinny]

I think McCarver and Buck were lying in wait. They knew the pine tar (or dirt) was an issue in the prior series becuase they already had the video footage. There was probably talk of it in the clubhouse. They are St Louis homers. They broadcast it knowing both teams have someone watching the game in the clubhouse. They did everything they could to entice LaRussa to make an issue of it. They basically said he should talk to the umpire during the inning. Fox zoomed in on Rogers hand. Fox was looking for it and tried to influence the game.

But LaRussa didn't take the bait because he knows that if he did, his team would be called on other infractions. The benefit to LaRussa was not to get Rogers out of the game, but to get Rogers to clean his hand. I think it was staged by Buck and McCarver for that reason and I think that is the real story here.

Rogers was lights out after the 1st inning. In fact, he pitched better with a "clean" hand. I think Fox had a storyline and was trying to catch Rogers if they saw any substance on his hand. This wasn't play-by-play, this was a pre-designed tactic by Buck and McCarver to pass information to the Cardinals and influence the game.

I think Larussa did it not so much to get him to wipe it off as to try and get in his head. Rogers is known as a pretty emotional guy and he's been so locked in and focused the last few weeks, Tony just wanted to try and get in his kitchen.

[yargs]

How Kenny Rogers pitched after the first inning is irrelevant to this story. If the Cardinals were "in the know" prior to the first inning or even made the umpires check the hand of Kenny Rogers, he would have been ejected from the game and would not have pitched another game in the playoffs, let along innings 2-8.....if indeed that was pine tar on his hand.

So the real question is why didn't Tony Larussa have the umpires check?

My guess is that he really didn't know about this until after the first inning when it may have been too late since Rogers would have also been notified of what was happening on TV and washed it off.

If Larussa knew about it before the game even started and if it was his friendship with Leyland that deterred him from asking the umpires to check Rogers' hand then why wouldn't he contact Leyland BEFORE the game to have him avoid this ebarrassment?

(unless larussa want to kill two birds with one stone by not getting Rogers ejected and tarring the reputation of Jim Leyland BUT bringing national attention to it in hopes of the act not repeating itself in game 6....if there is a game 6...I still think Tigers in 5)

I personally think Rogers cheated (That was pine tar which is an illegal substance) and got away with it and Larussa opted not to make an issue out of it due to his friendship with Leyland.

Unfortunately for Larussa and the cardinals his decision may have cost him a world series victory. The truth will never be told and this will all fade away.

[Fool]

EVERYONE fucking does it though. It's just like the greenies. Technically cheating but EVERYONE took 'em till this past year. I guarantee four our 5 Cardinals pitchers do it/did it, probably more cause they're all junk pitchers pretty much aside from Carpenter. It's just one of those things.

Yeah, I get that Vinny. And I'm not saying I won't be celebrating if they win it all. But I don't care that everyone does it. Its against the rules. I'm disappointed. And I'm not nearly as impressed with his post-season rebirth as I was. Of course, I'm not much of a baseball fan anyway. I'm not telling anyone how they should react, nor do I want anyone to feel differently just because of how I feel. But everyone cheating doesn't make it better at all, to me.

[Hermy]

Traveling is against the rules in the NBA, did everyone get so upset when refs didn't care about that?

[Fool]

That's not analogous. If this were Rogers' perhaps getting away with a balk (roughly analgous to traveling in basketball) I would not be disappointed with Rogers.