Israel vs. Hezbollah

[Uncle Mxy]

I don't see anything in that description about jews buying a good portion of the land that comprises Israel, fair and square, from its arab neighbors in the first place, dating back to the 1800's.

And I don't see anything in that description about Israel taking control, fair and square, of abandonded desert wasteland that had no owner - land that comprises another very good portion of the land that comprises Israel - and turning it into a desert oasis.

Both these were HUGELY enabled by British Palestine, which I did mention, and which your writeup on land ownership totally ignores That's how you go from a few acres of desert in 1920 to a sizable % of the entire region. Once there was anything resembling a sizable amount of Jews and Jewish ownership facilitated by British-"occupied" Palestine, there was revolt.

In my next installment, I'll debunk the pushing and shoving argument.

OK. I'll do it now.

In reality, in 1948, arabs could have had 45% of all of the land at issue, with the jews getting 55%. Since the jews owned more of the land than the arabs did (see above) it was actually a steal of a deal for the arabs.

No, they owned a much-smaller portion than that, as your own quote shows:

By the time Israel became a state in 1948, JNF owned 12.5 percent of all the land of Israel on which 80 percent of Israel's population now lives.

Not that it was really relevant, as there were a lot of problems with the Israel-Palestine split as laid out by the U.N. Rather than post Asimov's collected works of quotes and talk about who had access to fresh water and who had desert and all sorts of matters pertaining to the particulars of the land itself, just take a look at the image of how it was supposed to work:



Note how Israel and Palestine each consist of three largely-discontiguous blobs. You could infer conflict just by looking at the map boundaries and having no idea of who the parties are.

[Taymelo]

Originally posted by something Taymelo dug up

Rather than post Asimov's collected works of quotes...

LMFAO @ me.

[Anthony]

Anthony. You misunderstand my point.

I said forget about individual battles, such as the current conflict in Lebanon.

My point was, overall, if it were up to Israel, there would be peace, recognized borders, and stability.

You can argue that by bombing Lebanon they are going against their own interests, but I'm not talking about a single military issue, or about whether it was a mistake, or whether it was disproportionate.

I'm talking about the grand scheme of things in the middle east conflict.

In the grand scheme of things, Israel wants peace, but some of its partners don't.

Do you disagree with that?

The only thing I know is there will never be peace there.
Hell, I have a strong dislike for Israel, I admit.

I just think this is a huge over reaction on Israelis part.
I want what most want: Hezbollah to disarm. Who dosnt want that?
Maybe those who support them. But they only support them because they help the poor in the south. They take care of them.
It makes me sick when I see people on the news who are displaced and moving around from town to town because of the bombings and their still singing the praises of Hezbollah.
Hezbollah put you there.

Israel could have gone about this a different way.
The thing that most Lebenese, even those who dont support Hezbollah at all, are pissed about, is all the civilian lives that are being wasted, and what little progress is being made against Hezbollah its self. More supporters are being killed than actuall members. Its a waste.

[UberAlles]

This is a long thread. Can the OP dumb it down for those of us who could care less about what goes on outside our immediate region?

Maybe add a running score in the first post.

Israel 3 - Hezbollah 2 @ Halftime. Something like that.

[Uncle Mxy]

Then, Arafat got a second bite at the apple. Israel handed him on a silver platter up to 97% of what his people wanted. He turned it down outright, continued to steal from his people and put the money overseas, and supported suicide bombers.

Sorry if I blame Arafat for this conflict. It could and should have ended in 2000, but Arafat didn't want 97% of EVERYTHING HIS PEOPLE WANTED. He wanted ZERO PERCENT of everything his people wanted.

To be fair, Barak's offer was on the table twice -- once in 2000, once in 2001. Arafat walked away the first time. Barak walked away the second. And it certainly wasn't what a lot of Palestinians actually -wanted- -- just what they'd possibly accept.

But yeah, I agree. He missed his "do or die" moment, and died. If you think Arafat really had the power to accept on behalf of "his" people, then he was stupid not to accept. (On the other hand, if he knew a sufficiently large / influential % of Palestinians wouldn't live with his deal and replaced him with Hamas, Arafat might have justified rejecting the offer to save lives.)

[Uncle Mxy]

Is that Israel's fault? Well, before there was Israel, they were being pushed to a mythical elsewhere all around Europe.

The problem is they picked the wrong elsewhere. Instead of spending the last 50 years fighting over jerusalem, they could've been chillin in the US. The occasional mad gunman not withstanding, america is a pretty good place to be jewish.

It is now. It wasn't back then. Jews were second-class citizens in the eyes of many folks in the U.S. back when Israel was formed, which was why you didn't see large masses of Jews fleeing to the U.S. during the Holocaust. It didn't help that liberal Jews already living in the U.S. didn't much care for the more-conservative European Jews (much as the Dutch of West Michigan don't have the same political slant on life as the Dutch in the Netherlands).

Even today jews still flock to that crappy patch of dirt surrounded by enemies. I know that suffering is part of the jewish identity but maybe it's time to give it a rest and take the path of least resistance for once.

That sentiment is how most of the Jews that did get here pre-Israel.

In my fantasy world, the rallying call for peace in the middle east would be "Come to America!" We'd even pay for it. If it meant we could stop giving billions annually it israel and billions annually to egypt (to keep peace with israel) we'd still come out ahead.

I take it they're going to live in Dearborn?

[Taymelo]

Israeli raid near Syria
Israeli airborne troops raided a Lebanese hospital near the Syrian border Wednesday, sparking a firefight that Israel said killed 10 Hezbollah militants.

The hospital used as a Hezbollah post in Baalbeck, Israel Defense Forces top leader Dan Halutz said. Israeli forces captured five militants in the raid, Halutz said.

The hospital and surrounding area was thought to be a remote Hezbollah logistics base where many Hezbollah leaders lived, said Israel Defense Forces top leader Dan Halutz. The hospital was raided to gain intelligence information, which Halutz said the IDF obtained.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said though the scene of the fighting is called a hospital, "there are no patients there, there is no hospital. This is the basis of Hezbollah in disguise. It's named a hospital precisely to mislead you and others that will consider it a place no army will intervene with."

Ten militants were killed and five were captured in and around the hospital during the operation, Halutz said. The IDF also destroyed a large supply of missiles during the raid.

No Israeli casualties were reported.

Lebanese Internal Security Forces said 16 people were killed and 13 were wounded during the Baalbeck airstrike.

There are an estimated 25,000 Israeli soldiers operating in nine southern Lebanese villages near the Syrian border as part of a campaign that Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon said has wiped out 300 of the estimated 2,000 Hezbollah fighters in Lebanon.

"Hezbollah has taken a serious beating and that is why the pressure of a ground offensive will produce the expected results," said Ramon, speaking on Israeli Channel 10.

Arabic language networks reported that Hezbollah denied Ramon's claims....

As of Tuesday night, Lebanese authorities said nearly 560 civilians and soldiers have also been killed, most of them as a result of Israeli airstrikes. Israel has reported 54 deaths, including 19 civilians killed by Hezbollah rocket attacks. (Watch Lebanese racing to get out of range -- 1:51)

Take note of three things.

First, the fact that Hezbollah not only hides in residential areas using women and children as human shields, and then disingenuously wailing on television for world sympathy at how terrible the Israelis are for killing their human shields... but they also use hospitals as military bases, and fill them not only with militants, but with scores of rockets and other munitions, and use them as military headquarters.

Second, that if nearly 560 people have died, and 300 of them were Hezbollah, then "only" 260 civilians have died.

In other words, Israel has killed considererably more Hezbollah than innocent civilians, athough people like Anthony were lied to by CNN and believe more civilians than Hezbollah were killed. Put yet another way, the lies broadcast on CNN are at least partially responsible for Anthony's anger towards Israel right now.

Third, what you believe after watching television is that Israel is indiscriminantly bombing all of Lebanon, and killing more civilians than bad guys - taking it all out on the innocent.

What is REALLY happenning, however, is that Israel is targeting Hezbollah and mostly hitting Hezbollah, but because Hezbollah don't wear uniforms, fire from apartment buildings and hospitals, etc., Hezbollah has caused Israel to unintentionally kill a lot of civilians - some of them "innocent", some of them staying behind specifically to provide cover for Hezbollah (i.e. knowingly and voluntarily acting as human shields and collaborators with Hezbollah).

I'm sure that a few TRULY innocent civilians have died, but the rest is just propaganda.

Israel drops leaflets and tells people to evacuate. Those that don't evacuate are ALLEGEDLY the sick, old, children, etc.

BULLSHIT. Most of those allegedly sick, old and children are (children of) Hezbollah and/or Hezbollah sympathizers, who volunteered to stay behind and be human shields during Israeli bombing.

Now, because some Hezbollah nutcase forced his children to stay in an apartment where he fired rockets at Israel, and Israel took him out, its allegedly Israel "targeting civilians".

Fuck that.

[Uncle Mxy]

Of course, by that metric, Hezbollah hasn't targetted civilians either.

Israel has reported 54 deaths, including 19 civilians

[Anthony]

Yeah tay, I just started to hate Israel. I've never hated them before these actions. No, i've always thought they were a piece of shit nation that should have never existed where they do in the first place. They make all the trouble in the middle east. Its like a black man moving into a well known racist town in the south and taking one of the better houses.

You know everything. Your always right and everyone else who disagrees with you is always wrong. I'm so glad you can hold your self in such a high regard.

So what your saying is that its OK for the Israelis to kill those people because of their support of hezbollah? They have no where to go.

Look, I want what Israel supposedly wants. Hezbollah out. They should have been wiped out by the Reagen administration in the early 80's. The same way they should have gotten Osama under Billy boy.

But dont tell me its ok to kill hundreds of Lebanese people simply because of their support of Hezbollah. Its wrong and its not right.

Another thing, you blast Bush about the war in Iraq every time you get the chance. So why do you back up Israel? Huh? Why? Its the same fucking thing, different countries.

But then again, i'm the one who's misinformed simply because you have a different POV. I'm sorry for even challenging your wide spread knowledge. What the fuck was I thinking.

[Taymelo]

Yeah tay, I just started to hate Israel. I've never hated them before these actions.

I was just making a point, using you as an example, that by, as Bush would say, catapulting the propaganda on behalf of Hezbollah, everyone seems to think that only civilians are being hit.

Sorry if I used your name in making an example.

No, i've always thought they were a piece of shit nation that should have never existed where they do in the first place. They make all the trouble in the middle east. Its like a black man moving into a well known racist town in the south and taking one of the better houses.

Yes.

Don't blame the racists.

Blame the guy who is trying to live in peace in his nice house.

You know everything. Your always right and everyone else who disagrees with you is always wrong. I'm so glad you can hold your self in such a high regard.

I'm going to say this once and fucking for all, for you and EVERYONE on this board.

Just like you, I am fucking entitled to my own fucking opinion.

If I believe my opinion is fact, I'm fucking entitled to that, too.

I'm entitled to post what I believe, to support it with quotes I like, and you are entitled to read it, don't read it, respond to it, debunk it, make my opinion look stupid with well informed facts, whatever.

But don't get your fucking panties all in a bunch because I state MY OPINION on this board and not yours.

You want your opinion known, TYPE IT, fucker. I'm not going to make your fucking arguments for you. I'm not going to author my posts to make points for you.

I post for - - - surprise surprise --- ME!!!

So what your saying is that its OK for the Israelis to kill those people because of their support of hezbollah? They have no where to go.

I have no easy answer for that. I don't know if its 50% their fault, 50% the Lebanese government's fault, 50% Hezbollah's fault, 25% someone else's fault.

All I know is that prior to 1948 Israel had many terror groups and militias. Its true. Look it up. They even terrorized the British. However, when the government was formed, the militias were disbanded, and now all education and military action comes from a centralized and legitimate government.

Since 1948, neither the Lebanese nor Palestinians have organized a government that has created legitimate educational institutions, hospitals, military, etc. They have NOT disbanded their militias, although they promised in writing several times to do so.

Apportion the blame as you see fit, but if Hezbollah was disbanded and the only army was the Lebanese army, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But dont tell me its ok to kill hundreds of Lebanese people simply because of their support of Hezbollah. Its wrong and its not right.

I don't believe I ever said it is "ok". I believe all I said is its a tough situation for Israel, and that not all of the people they say are civilians really are.

Another thing, you blast Bush about the war in Iraq every time you get the chance. So why do you back up Israel? Huh? Why? Its the same fucking thing, different countries.

If Iraq were located in Canada, killed 3 US soldiers, kidnapped 2 more, and started launching rockets into Detroit before the US bombed Iraq, then I'd say the Iraq war is the same.

Its a really bad comparison. One was a war for regime change to protect the supply and price of oil, among other things.

One is to protect a border from attack.

But then again, i'm the one who's misinformed simply because you have a different POV. I'm sorry for even challenging your wide spread knowledge. What the fuck was I thinking.

If my wording made it seem like you are ignorant or something, I apologize. That wasn't my intent.

I was ripping on CNN, not you.