Israel vs. Hezbollah

[Uncle Mxy]

Since 1948, neither the Lebanese nor Palestinians have organized a government that has created legitimate educational institutions, hospitals, military, etc. They have NOT disbanded their militias, although they promised in writing several times to do so.

Lebanon had a quality educational system for a long time. Taymelo, you may want to investigate this thing called a URL, rather than posting voluminous amounts of text. Here's an example of a URL, talking about the education that you think Lebanon didn't have:

http://www.me-schools.com/countries/lebanon.htm

Dunno about hospitals in particular, but Beirut was considered the "Paris of the Middle East" for a spell, so I suspect they had something resembling hospitalization.

As for the military... remember that Lebanon itself was historically neutral, like Switzerland. They weren't making waves, and didn't think that they needed a big military. Then, in the 1970s, they got pushed by the Syrians from one side, and the Palestinians (that Israel and Jordan were ejecting) from the other, and the place turned into a battleground.

[Anthony]

I was just making a point, using you as an example, that by, as Bush would say, catapulting the propaganda on behalf of Hezbollah, everyone seems to think that only civilians are being hit.

Sorry if I used your name in making an example.

From what i've seen all the major news channels seem to be reporting the same thing. CNN, Fox, MSNBC, all of them. And this weekends actions dont make me think any different.

Yes.

Don't blame the racists.

Blame the guy who is trying to live in peace in his nice house.

My point is, why would you go where you know your not welcomed.

I'm going to say this once and fucking for all, for you and EVERYONE on this board.

Just like you, I am fucking entitled to my own fucking opinion.

If I believe my opinion is fact, I'm fucking entitled to that, too.

I'm entitled to post what I believe, to support it with quotes I like, and you are entitled to read it, don't read it, respond to it, debunk it, make my opinion look stupid with well informed facts, whatever.

But don't get your fucking panties all in a bunch because I state MY OPINION on this board and not yours.

You want your opinion known, TYPE IT, fucker. I'm not going to make your fucking arguments for you. I'm not going to author my posts to make points for you.

I post for - - - surprise surprise --- ME!!!

Its the way it fucking reads. I'm not saying your not entitled to your opinion. I dont care if you share your opinion.

I never asked you to make my arguments.

I have no easy answer for that. I don't know if its 50% their fault, 50% the Lebanese government's fault, 50% Hezbollah's fault, 25% someone else's fault.

All I know is that prior to 1948 Israel had many terror groups and militias. Its true. Look it up. They even terrorized the British. However, when the government was formed, the militias were disbanded, and now all education and military action comes from a centralized and legitimate government.

Since 1948, neither the Lebanese nor Palestinians have organized a government that has created legitimate educational institutions, hospitals, military, etc. They have NOT disbanded their militias, although they promised in writing several times to do so.

Apportion the blame as you see fit, but if Hezbollah was disbanded and the only army was the Lebanese army, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I dont know, nor do I care, about the rest of that post, but I do agree with that. I've never said anywhere that I support Hezbollah. Just that I dont support Israel and what their doing. If they felt this strongly about Hezbollah you go to the UN, and have them and the US help the Lebanese government get rid of them. Hezbollah is a Iranian and Syrian supported group. Theres nothing the Lebanese "government" can do about them. Their stronger than the government.

I don't believe I ever said it is "ok". I believe all I said is its a tough situation for

Israel, and that not all of the people they say are civilians really are.

Fair enough, thats what you believe, I dont believe that.

If

Iraq were located in Canada, killed 3 US soldiers, kidnapped 2 more, and started launching rockets into Detroit before the US bombed Iraq, then I'd say the Iraq war is the same.

Its a really bad comparison. One was a war for regime change to protect the supply and price of oil, among other things.

One is to protect a border from attack.

Hezbollah is the government in south Lebanon. Israel is trying to drive them out.

If my wording made it seem like you are ignorant or something, I apologize. That wasn't my intent.

I was ripping on CNN, not you.

That was the way I read it.
Its all good.

[Taymelo]

Mxy:

I know the lebanese have a good educational system.

I was trying to be brief, and I was lumping two issues (Lebanon and Palestine) together.

With respect to Lebanon, however, I would argue that their education system is inadequate, in that the Lebanese government doesn't provide education in S. Lebanon.

Hezbollah does.

To me, that's a failing grade on education.

If the US Department of Education left public education in Michigan to the KKK, would you give the US a passing grade?

[Uncle Mxy]

With respect to Lebanon, however, I would argue that their education system is inadequate, in that the Lebanese government doesn't provide education in S. Lebanon.

No doubt, but it wasn't for lack of trying on their part.

South Lebanon is a mess that Israel helped to create. The PLO who'd initially established South Lebanon as this no-man's-land wasn't there because the Lebanese wanted them there. No, they were there because Israel and Jordan PUSHED them there. Hezbollah rode the coattails of the the PLO. Why doesn't the U.S. ship its prisoners to Canada and declare them the enemy?

If the US Department of Education left public education in Michigan to the KKK, would you give the US a passing grade?

There's far too many reasons for me to not give the U.S. a passing grade on education. You don't have to make it any easier for me.

[Taymelo]

[QUOTE=Uncle Mxy]

South Lebanon is a mess that Israel helped to create. The PLO who'd initially established South Lebanon as this no-man's-land wasn't there because the Lebanese wanted them there. No, they were there because Israel and Jordan PUSHED them there. Hezbollah rode the coattails of the the PLO. Why doesn't the U.S. ship its prisoners to Canada and declare them the enemy?

Went right over my head.

Rephrase please.

[Uncle Mxy]

Take your "bad guy" element:
-- the PLO in Israel's case, our huge prisoner population in the U.S.

and shove the mess en masse out to some neighboring country that isn't hostile toward you and wouldn't be able to hold back such an influx
-- Lebanon in Israel's case, Canada in my example.

Then, watch as the "bad guys" you ejected to your borders do "bad guy" things to you and set up "bad guy" elements in the "weak" country.

Respond by labelling the entire mess an enemy bordering state. I'm sure if we recorded a country-fied version of South Park's "Blame Canada" to rally the troops in the red states and pointed out that those fuckers speak French, that would be sufficient.

Like I said earlier, look at how the voodoo state of South Lebanon comes into
being, how both Israel and Jordan (who don't exactly like each other) agreed that they didn't like the PLO even more and backed them into South Lebanon. This caused Syria (itching for an excuse to invade Lebanon) to get involved, and Lebanon turns into a proxy battle between external factions.

Since you like house analogies: I have a bad guy in my nice house trashing the place and spooking the neighborhood. I shove them to my next door neighbor's house, and now the bad guy is trashing the neighbor's place and spooking the neighborhood. Then I burn my next door neighbor's house down. Is that neighborly of me?

[Taymelo]

You're leaving out the fact that most of the bad guys came from the neighbor's house in the first place, and all Israel is doing is sending them home to their homelands.

Unfortunately, their homelands have regimes in power that don't want them back, because they are oppressive regimes that already have enough poor and angry arabs in their population to keep in line.

These are poor Syrians, poor Lebanese, poor Yemenis, poor Egyptians, poor Saudi Arabians, etc. etc. etc.

They aren't Palestinians.

So don't pretend that Israel is forcing all these people out of their homeland in Israel, and lumping them on the poor, innocent Lebanese and Syrian governments.

[Uncle Mxy]

The Palestinians came from Lebanon? <laughs> Not anytime recently. My family came from Europe a hundred years ago, so I'm European? We all came from Africa, so we're all African?

There was minimal Palestinian immigration between the late 1800s and when Israel came into the picture -- in no small part because the Ottomans didn't -want- mass migrations of any sort. It was a well-established (if never very precisely bordered) territory within the Ottoman Empire. It had been defined in territorial terms (rather than a distinct "people") for centuries. Jews who lived in the Palestine region were Palestinians. What a concept!

Lebanon as it exists today was the French doing to the Syrian region much like what the British did with the Palestine region -- a Muslim state (Syria) and a non-Muslim state (Christian Lebanon, though in practice it was half Christian/half Muslim). Like every territory, Lebanon fought against Israel at its initial creation in 1948. Subsequently wasn't hostile to anyone for many decades until external forces started controlling the show.

[geerussell]

Anthony. You misunderstand my point.

I said forget about individual battles, such as the current conflict in Lebanon.

My point was, overall, if it were up to Israel, there would be peace, recognized borders, and stability.

You can argue that by bombing Lebanon they are going against their own interests, but I'm not talking about a single military issue, or about whether it was a mistake, or whether it was disproportionate.

I'm talking about the grand scheme of things in the middle east conflict.

In the grand scheme of things, Israel wants peace, but some of its partners don't.

Do you disagree with that?

The only thing I know is there will never be peace there.
Hell, I have a strong dislike for Israel, I admit.

I just think this is a huge over reaction on Israelis part.
I want what most want: Hezbollah to disarm. Who dosnt want that?
Maybe those who support them. But they only support them because they help the poor in the south. They take care of them.
It makes me sick when I see people on the news who are displaced and moving around from town to town because of the bombings and their still singing the praises of Hezbollah.
Hezbollah put you there.

Israel could have gone about this a different way.
The thing that most Lebenese, even those who dont support Hezbollah at all, are pissed about, is all the civilian lives that are being wasted, and what little progress is being made against Hezbollah its self. More supporters are being killed than actuall members. Its a waste.

Remember in New Jack City when Nino Brown gave out dinners to the homeless? That's what Hezbollah is doing when they "take care of the poor." They're the bad guys. A smokescreen of charity to keep the locals in line doesn't change that.

If they felt this strongly about Hezbollah you go to the UN, and have them and the US help the Lebanese government get rid of them. Hezbollah is a Iranian and Syrian supported group. Theres nothing the Lebanese "government" can do about them. Their stronger than the government.

The UN doesn't work that way. Seriously, they aren't going to come in and just solve your problems for you. They won't get off their asses for all-out genocide and you think they're going to mobilize an effective military effort to do something about Hezbollah? Pipe dream.

The UN is good for basically two things-- a forum for the nuclear states to hash out differences and occasionally a mechanism for delivering food and medicine to poor people. It's not a world government, global nanny or "higher authority" of any kind.

[Taymelo]

The Palestinians came from Lebanon? <laughs> Not anytime recently. My family came from Europe a hundred years ago, so I'm European? We all came from Africa, so we're all African?

There was minimal Palestinian immigration between the late 1800s and when Israel came into the picture -- in no small part because the Ottomans didn't -want- mass migrations of any sort. It was a well-established (if never very precisely bordered) territory within the Ottoman Empire. It had been defined in territorial terms (rather than a distinct "people") for centuries. Jews who lived in the Palestine region were Palestinians. What a concept!

Lebanon as it exists today was the French doing to the Syrian region much like what the British did with the Palestine region -- a Muslim state (Syria) and a non-Muslim state (Christian Lebanon, though in practice it was half Christian/half Muslim). Like every territory, Lebanon fought against Israel at its initial creation in 1948. Subsequently wasn't hostile to anyone for many decades until external forces started controlling the show.

Mzy:

I was responding to your previous statement, which I can only interpret to mean that the current Israeli/Hezbollah problem was caused by Israel pushing the Palestinians into South Lebanon, and creating a population of Palestinians in South Lebanon that the Lebanese government wasn't prepare to feed, educate, or police.

I don't think that's the case. I think the people in South Lebanon are not Palestinians forced out of Israel and into South Lebanon.

Either you're wrong, or I'm wrong, or you meant to type something else and that's how it came out. If I'm misunderstanding your previous post, please clarify.