The Gitmo System

[DennyMcLain]

I don't for a second believe the military is as fucked up as people think. Sure, operations go bad, and sometimes the politicians ask for too many "restrictions" which ultimately screw up mission bigtime. Here's my take, independent of neither liberal nor conservative viewpoints:

Abu Ghirab (did I spell that right, Anthony?) was PLANNED. Yes, planned. Why? To cover a covert operation happening somewhere else. Don't think for a split second the U.S. military hasn't figured out the media to the point where they can tie strings to it's arms and play puppet. After all these years? They most likely have a war room inside the Pentagon dedicated to nothing more than media reactions and media manipulations. I would guess that Special Ops was about to pull off something big, and Abu Ghirab would simply be too good for the media to pass up. The media, as we all know, can be selectively narrow-visioned. When the shit is going down, that's all they can see and smell. If you can strategically place the shit in a way which deflects from a real operation, you're faking out both the media AND the terrorists.

All of the money going to the war in Iraq ISN'T going to Iraq. Remember, we're talking about politician with only one thing in mind -- re-election. In order to fund worldwide operations against terror cells, the money must be laundered, funneled into the War in Iraq and diverted from there. Whenever shit goes down in Iraq (see above) I can't help but think that, somewhere else in the world, an entire cell is being wiped out by a team like SeAL 6.

Bush is a fucking idiot. Yep, 100%. But look at his cabinet. It's literally built for war. It's going to be interesting to see if Colin Powell runs for President. He apparently left on bad terms, but we don't really know that for absolute certain, since word are just words. It's possible he left early enough to distance himself from any damage this administration was bracing to incur. This invasion, and it's larger goal, has been in the planning stages even before Bush was first elected in 2000 (the "warhawks"). Sometimes to set-up the larger victory, one must intentionally lose the smaller ones. I'm not saying that losing thousands of lives in Iraq is "small", but the way these people think, it's short-term damage they are willing to accept to gain a long-term advantage. Like I said, it's the way "they" think.

Bush never said Iraq was going to be "simple". Hate him all you want, but right off the bat he said it was going to be long and messy. It's the MEDIA that glorified our quick movement into Baghdad. The generals knew better. Yeah, there was a problem with something called "armor", and a problem with a lack of troops. But war is war. If one dissects D-Day, it was nearly a complete fuck up -- and they had been planning that invasion for a while. Shit is going to happen. But look at the size of Iraq, bordering how many U.S. friendly nations? Turkey? They've got their own agenda. Same with the Saudis. Despite that, and all the bad press, the military has done one helluva job with a very difficult situation.

The ultimate goal is Iran. Take a look at a map. See Iran? What countries border it to the East and West? Yep -- Iraq and Afghanistan! Turkey to it's Northwest, Pakistan to it's Southeast. The countries to the north? We'd let Russia handle them. The simple fact is, no country in the history of civilization has ever -- EVER -- won a two front war (oceans don't count as a front). Iran's leaders are crazy, but not stupid. I'm certain a lot of what's going on inside Iraq is Iran's doing. If Iraq falls to the U.S. completely, Iran is finished!

[Glenn]

Bush never said Iraq was going to be "simple". Hate him all you want, but right off the bat he said it was going to be long and messy. It's the MEDIA that glorified our quick movement into Baghdad.

Interesting read, Denny.

I would like to point out that "the media" didn't pose in front of the now famous "Mission Accomplished!!" banner in a flight suit, however.

[DennyMcLain]

Bush never said Iraq was going to be "simple". Hate him all you want, but right off the bat he said it was going to be long and messy. It's the MEDIA that glorified our quick movement into Baghdad.

Interesting read, Denny.

I would like to point out that "the media" didn't pose in front of the now famous "Mission Accomplished!!" banner in a flight suit, however.

Yes, you're right. Forgot about that one.

I do believe you used that infamous pic in the "worst poster" thread. Remember, the one that backfired on you?

How apropos.

[Taymelo]

How are we going to change it?

It is not fair or right but I personally think that maybe a group will think twice about fucking with us again.

When they see what we did to Iraq and what we are doing to their people along with what is happening then you should think twice before fucking with America.

If what we were doing was so bad then the UN would take more action then what they are doing.

What do you guys suggest we do? Do you want to treat these guys like your typical american criminal?

In other words, the end justifies the means, so it is fair and it is right.

[Taymelo]

The fact of the matter is, the terrorists have awaken a sleeping giant. From the 1972 Munich games, to 9/11, the U.S. have conducted very few overt operations against terrorism (Gulf War 1 was about Kuwait, Libya was about them attacking first, then declaring war on us). Whatever your political skew, the simple fact is terrorists get away with what they get away with because there is little to lose, and everything to gain. They hold allegiance with no country, value life very little, and up until recently have been able to achieve great success with very little retaliation.

Even if you are flatly against the War (Taymelo), you must agree that taking the fight into their backyard was the LAST thing the terrorists expected. Now, we're policing Afghanistan, a former terrorist playground, and own some control of Iraq, a country strategically placed at the heart of the problem. A fully functioning air base i Iraq would mean a quick-strike capability measured in minutes, not days! And with no Germany or Turkey to deal with, sorties can be carried out in relative secrecy, disallowing the punks the opportunity to play it up to al Jazeer.

It's no wonder they're fighting us so hard in Iraq. This is their worst case scenario.

its amazing how people spin things in their own minds to justify this war.

Do you really believe all that "taking the fight to the terrorists" crap?

Sounds like a lot of bullshit to me.

[DennyMcLain]

The fact of the matter is, the terrorists have awaken a sleeping giant. From the 1972 Munich games, to 9/11, the U.S. have conducted very few overt operations against terrorism (Gulf War 1 was about Kuwait, Libya was about them attacking first, then declaring war on us). Whatever your political skew, the simple fact is terrorists get away with what they get away with because there is little to lose, and everything to gain. They hold allegiance with no country, value life very little, and up until recently have been able to achieve great success with very little retaliation.

Even if you are flatly against the War (Taymelo), you must agree that taking the fight into their backyard was the LAST thing the terrorists expected. Now, we're policing Afghanistan, a former terrorist playground, and own some control of Iraq, a country strategically placed at the heart of the problem. A fully functioning air base i Iraq would mean a quick-strike capability measured in minutes, not days! And with no Germany or Turkey to deal with, sorties can be carried out in relative secrecy, disallowing the punks the opportunity to play it up to al Jazeer.

It's no wonder they're fighting us so hard in Iraq. This is their worst case scenario.

its amazing how people spin things in their own minds to justify this war.

Do you really believe all that "taking the fight to the terrorists" crap?

Sounds like a lot of bullshit to me.

Yes, I actually do. A few points here:

a) You can blame the French and the British for this shit. It's their mess. However, you can also blame the lack of action on the part of the U.S. to retaliate. Remember the Marines in Beirut? What about the hostage rescue attempt? We should've gone in guns a ablaze, wiping out anything we can see. I'm not joking, either. These people completely believe the stomach of the U.S. people is too sensitive, and our resolve forged of playdough, not hardened steel. Some "terrorists" allegedly tried to fuck with some Soviets back in the day -- and had the fingers of their family members "handed' to them, courtesy of your friendly neighborhood KGB. Suffice to say, the hostages were released. Our "inaction" has led to this. Unfortunately, it's a deep pile of shit to unload.

b) What one must realize is that these people are NOT MUSLIM!!! They're beyond that, very much like our radical right. They have it in their minds that "every American" is evil, and must die. Logical reasoning does not work, here -- only brutal force.

What I can't understand is why rumors haven't spread about American soldiers carrying viles of pig blood with them. When they shoot an insurgent, they pour pig blood into the wound, then a head shot for the kill. Impure, the deceased insurgent will neever see Allah. Of course, soldiers DON'T do this, but fuck if it wouldn't stop the fighting very quickly. All a possible "warrior of Islam" needs to know is that he's dying "dirty" for him to reassess his plans.

Sounds horrible? Repulsive? Un-American? Exactly. The terrorists would never expect it.

c) The politicians shouldn't care about WHAT the people think. You're gonna villify me for this one, Tay, but I BELIEVE in torture at Gitmo. I BELIEVE that we should be as ruthless as humanly possible. The reason? Nobody fears us, anymore. For over 150 years Americans have been able to travel abroad with the confidence that beside them is the American mystique, as well as unequaled American firepower (I'd like to think of the War of 1812 as the starting point and Vietman as near the end). Now? Good luck. Every terror splinter cell is looking to make a name. A few abductions here, a beheading there, and "poof" -- instant celebrity. I say, go back to the Teddy Roosevelt days of "Speak softly, and carry a big stick". We won't touch you if you don't touch us. But if we have to touch you, it WON'T be just a touch. Hit 'em with everything we've got, then say "See, we TOLD you to back off. Now, look what you made us do". That's the old America I want back.

[Uncle Mxy]

Whatever your political skew, the simple fact is terrorists get away with what they get away with because there is little to lose, and everything to gain.

No. It's because they're under the radar, geared more toward nations than small decentralized factions. Building a "radar" smart enough to detect and derail terrorists that doesn't hose civil liberties is exceedingly difficult to get correct in theory, never mind the practicality constraints, and the world gets smaller every day just to make things interesting.

You can blame the French and the British for this shit. It's their mess.

There's a whole lot of "blame" to go around.

Some "terrorists" allegedly tried to fuck with some Soviets back in the day -- and had the fingers of their family members "handed' to them, courtesy of your friendly neighborhood KGB. Suffice to say, the hostages were released.

Nice anecdote. I take it that's why the Soviets left Afghanistan.

b) What one must realize is that these people are NOT MUSLIM!!! They're beyond that, very much like our radical right. They have it in their minds that "every American" is evil, and must die. Logical reasoning does not work, here -- only brutal force.

Because it's worked so well for the past millenia... riiiggghhhttt...

What I can't understand is why rumors haven't spread about American soldiers carrying viles of pig blood with them.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.htm

c) The politicians shouldn't care about WHAT the people think.

They shouldn't get elected either. <laughs>

I BELIEVE that we should be as ruthless as humanly possible. The reason? Nobody fears us, anymore. For over 150 years Americans have been able to travel abroad with the confidence that beside them is the American mystique, as well as unequaled American firepower (I'd like to think of the War of 1812 as the starting point and Vietman as near the end).

The Monroe Doctrine was pretty isolationist -- we won't piss in Europe's pot if Europe doesn't piss in ours. We were largely neutral and non-invasive, and it wasn't because we had such great armies and weapons in the 1800s. We were busy beating ourselves in the ground with this little thing called the Civil War. What do they teach in history classes these days?

I say, go back to the Teddy Roosevelt days of "Speak softly, and carry a big stick". We won't touch you if you don't touch us. But if we have to touch you, it WON'T be just a touch. Hit 'em with everything we've got, then say "See, we TOLD you to back off. Now, look what you made us do". That's the old America I want back.

Start by getting rid of all the nukes and biotoxins everywhere. It's easy.

[Tahoe]

If you want to belong to a fucked up military, go get in your time machine and go back to the Carter days. Then have his dumb fucking bitch ass send you on "operation eagle claw" or 'rice bow' whatever the fuck you want to call it.

what a fucking gem?

[geerussell]

If you want to belong to a fucked up military, go get in your time machine and go back to the Carter days. Then have his dumb fucking bitch ass send you on "operation eagle claw" or 'rice bow' whatever the fuck you want to call it.

what a fucking gem?

Speaking of flashbacks, back in the 1980s during the glorious era of reagan's morning in america it was the soviet evil empire that threw people in the gulag, spied on its citizens, started wars of aggression and generally got what it wanted, when it wanted through force.

I guess nature really does abhor a vacuum, comrades.

[DennyMcLain]

If you want to belong to a fucked up military, go get in your time machine and go back to the Carter days. Then have his dumb fucking bitch ass send you on "operation eagle claw" or 'rice bow' whatever the fuck you want to call it.

what a fucking gem?

Speaking of flashbacks, back in the 1980s during the glorious era of reagan's morning in america it was the soviet evil empire that threw people in the gulag, spied on its citizens, started wars of aggression and generally got what it wanted, when it wanted through force.

I guess nature really does abhor a vacuum, comrades.

Good point. I suppose the perfect solution would be a delicate balance of force and restraint, based upon need, not desire.

Then again, that old Lord Byron finds his way into the mix every single time.