U.S. airstrike kills Al Qaeda leader, al-Zarqawi

[Taymelo]

The shit that went on at Abu Ghraib was pretty fucking stupid and demented, imo. But when you catch a piece of snakes ass like this fuck, who beheaded innocent peeps, I feel torture is completely acceptable for saving lives of Iraqis or US citizens.

I also am willing to give up some of my freedoms if it helps the country fight the war on terror. I could care less if they want to listen to my phone calls.

Just trying to add some ballance.

I think we should torture everyone who lost family members on 9/11.

[Uncle Mxy]

For me, when you catch the bad guy, you want all the info he has. If you ask him and he tells you, go check it out and see if what he is telling you is true. If it isn't true, raise the stakes a little, or quite a little bit.

Typically, the best way to do that isn't to torture the baddie, but instead to put the screws on who they care about. Direct torture beyond interrogation isn't that effective, so why bother?

And although I said it, it doesn't really matter to me if we save lives or not if you caught someone like AZ. If he feels like he about to meet his maker, so be it. If he feels excruciating pain, thats even better. He made choices in life that will come back to haunt him. Something all humans should understand.

That's the logic that's led to millenia of conflicts in that region, because...

Abu-Ghraib is for another thread if you ask me. That isn't the use of torture that I'm trying to discuss. That was some stupid shit. And it didn't help one bit.

...such abuse inevitably gets turned into a rallying cry for the other side. An eye for an eye, and everyone's blind.

I feel that torture demands a level of collective perfection that humans just don't have. We must perfectly hide the fact that we're engaged in torturing, forever and ever, to avoid negative propaganda. We have to perfectly know that who we're torturing is worthy, and why. When your collective includes folks with "I love to make a grown man piss himself" attitudes (a direct quote from one of the Abu Ghraib troops), then embracing torture isn't the answer. For the religious folks out there, why not let God be the ultimate judge?

We do this kind of shit, and the terrorists win because we become them.

[Hermy]

We do this kind of shit, and the terrorists win because we become them.
================================================== =====

Thats it, thats all, thats all there is.

[Glenn]

Just got this in my email box, and got a good chuckle out of it.

-- Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was alive when U.S. troops reached him after the U.S. bombing raid, but died "almost immediately" after, Maj. Gen. William Caldwell said.

[geerussell]

By any means necessary and as long as it's done by our CIA in secret. Well maybe public knowledge, not sure.

It's just my opinion and I am sure that viewpoint is in the minority (here).

Keeping it secret is a good idea. It's true that sometimes you have "ticking bomb" type of situtations that might require it but it should never become routine. The government tends to want to apply whatever tools it has as broadly as possible. Government chimpanzees are always looking at the next tree over and will mimic any clever behavior they see. (RICO well beyond the mafia, Patriot Act isn't just for terrorism any more, local police hooding suspects).

If torture becomes just another wrench in the toolbox, its broader use will get justified a lot like this...

Break a few eggs to make an omelet. You'll find no mercy or sympathy coming from me. I would hope that they would be "known" terrorists.

[Anthony]

why all the fighting? Lets celebrate that this piece of shit is dead.

[Tahoe]

We do this kind of shit, and the terrorists win because we become them.

We do what shit? Abu Ghraib? Thats 'still' for another thread, imo. The idiots who did that are going to prison.

But policy going forward... if we catch an animal like AZ, I'm fine with torturing him. He should die anyway, so send him to his after-life knowing what he did to others.

[Tahoe]

And why isn't Kennedy, Pelosi and Kerry giving kudos to the administration?

Or are they just able to criticize the admin for NOT capturing AZ?

Its like Pelosi constantly talking about 'culture of corruption' with the Reps but won't mention the crooks in her tent.

Bunch of fucking hypocrites.

[Taymelo]

And why isn't Kennedy, Pelosi and Kerry giving kudos to the administration?

Or are they just able to criticize the admin for NOT capturing AZ?

Its like Pelosi constantly talking about 'culture of corruption' with the Reps but won't mention the crooks in her tent.

Bunch of fucking hypocrites.

Do any conservatives get any facts right, ever?

Pelosi officially called for the resignation of William Jefferson from his committe work. She is one of the only ones to do so, and she did it right from the beginning. She said basically that she wasn't going to let people like you call her a hypocrite, and she would treat democrats the same as republicans.

Of course, if you watch Fox News, you wouldn't know news, facts, politics, or current events, just that "democrats are hypocrits".

[Uncle Mxy]

We do this kind of shit, and the terrorists win because we become them.

We do what shit? Abu Ghraib? Thats 'still' for another thread, imo. The idiots who did that are going to prison.

What shit = Torture. And I don't think you can have an abstract discussion about contexts in which it's ok to torture without discussing all the real-world cases where torture has run amok, be it Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, Auschwitz, the Inquisition, etc.

But really, I've had enough of torture for one thread, so no more torture talk from me here in this thread. Feel free to carry on this particular topic without me.

But policy going forward... if we catch an animal like AZ, I'm fine with torturing him. He should die anyway, so send him to his after-life knowing what he did to others.

We agree to disagree.