Hedo Turkoglu - Headed to Portlan...jk, Toronto

[Pharaoh]

So, we'd replace Tay's rock solid D against every SF not named Lebron or Pierce for a 3 point shooter who can handle the ball but couldn't defend me?

Fuck that!

I've been against signing Hedo from the start and the main reason is obvious: He's already 30 years old. If we wanted an old fucker on the books for close to $10 mil we would have kept Chauncey.

Chauncey was LOVED by the players and a coach on the floor. Sure he had his flaws but if you dump Chauncey do you really replace him with Hedo?

If that trade was suggested last October what would the response have been from the majority here? I seriously doubt it would have been met with approval.

But here we are. Less than 12 months later and people are pushing for Hedo's signature. Why? Is Tay really that bad? Is he the man to trade? I doubt it, and I tried a thousand times to dump him in all my "plans".

The funniest thing is that whenever someone pimps Hedo the reason they give is because Stuckey is not a PG.

WTF?

You're willing to trade Tayshaun Prince AND give Hedo Turkoglu $8+ mil per simply because a dude who was a starting PG for 1 season is not a great PG?

Fuck me! How fucking stupid is that?

If Stuckey is REALLY that bad of a PG then trade Rip for a big man, move Stuckey to SG and get a PG that isn't 30 years old, can run the offense and knock down a 3. I'm sure Glenn has some ideas lol

Switching your SF's because you want a better PG makes zero sense to me.

[Zekyl]

I'm with P all the way on this.

If we're trading one of our core, I don't relly think Prince is the #1 guy to trade. He's a solid player, he plays great D, and no one is guarding Lebron. We're dogging him because he can't just like everyone else? He'd do a much better job of it if we gave him some inside D. He can play off the guy and use his length to still defend the pull-up. He gets muscled around but if you have help defense, that's not as big of an issue. No one complained about his D at all when we had Ben backing him, or even when we had Sheed in 'play hard' mode backing him up. If anything, we need to solidify our inside defense to help him out.

I'd much rather see us trade Rip than Tay, and the only reason I make any trades suggesting we move Tay is because it seems like it's a very real possibility. I'd prefer to keep Tay, get a combo guard that's a shooter and can share ballhandling and running the offense with Stuckey, and move Rip for a big. I'm not a huge fan of bringing in Gordon, which is why I keep suggesting Hinrich. I don't want us to bring in Boozer either. My ideal situation would be to grab someone like Lee or Milsap (young, developing, hardworkers), trade Rip for someone like Okafor (defensive presence that's still young with potential), and keep Tay.

Stuckey
Combo-guard
Prince
Milsap
Okafor

Looks solid to me, depending on who you plug in as the combo guard. Tay has been a #4 option on offense while playing stellar defense for years, and he's done great in that role. Suddenly we're all angry about it? He's not going to play the 2, he's not going to play the 4, he's going to give us 30-35 solid minutes at SF (and we finally have a backup for him so that he won't wear down) with good-but-not-great 3pt shooting and the ability to expose mismatches (guys that are too short, or guys that aren't quick). Plus he started stepping into that leadership role last year. What we NEED is a coach that knows how to use him. Flip used him well on occasion, as did LB, but Curry had no idea last year. Maybe he figures things out after a season of disarray (he was ready to handle a team that self-coached with Chauncey but nowhere close to the disfunction that came up as soon as we got AI), maybe not. But that's not Tay's fault. He's still a young guy, with enough experience to be the team leader.

Essentially, I'd rather we keep him.

[Glenn]

As I have said before, I don't think Tay will be here much longer. By looking at the draft choices Joe made, how much mileage is on him, his salary and his knack for disappearing about 50% of the time, it's got to be driving Joe nuts.

If Joe can replace him for half the cost, I think he would (ex. Ariza). Time to sell high.

[Pharaoh]

The thing about guarding Lebron, and to a lesser extent Pierce is that Tay does just as well as everyone else... which is not good.

But let's put Tay up against the other SF's in the league. Does any one of them abuse him on the regular? Not IMO.

The guy has been the glue for this team for a long time. He's come through when we've needed him, most of the time. He's stepped up when called upon, most of the time. He's stepped forward as a leader when times got tough, some of the time (and you can excuse him for NOT leading since Rip, Sheed and Dice "outrank" him in experience)

I guess being pretty fucking good most of the time over a 6 year period just ain't good enough for some...

But what the fuck is people's problem with him? I don't buy it's his D, or his supposed lack of leadership. I think people, me included in the beginning see all this cap space and their minds get blown with all the possibilities.

"Damn! We could have 4 new starters next season!"

That ain't a recipe for a winning team - that's a recipe for disaster.

We're already gonna have 2 new starters at PF and C, and if you believe rumours we're likely to have a new starter at SG. How the fuck do we get everyone on the same page with a Coach like Curry and a PG who is only starting at that spot for his 2nd season?

Easy - you turn to the man who has always been there to rescue you. The guy you point to and say "See, I can draft well". The guy who proved everyone wrong. Remember the Orlando series with Rick Carlise refusing to use Prince until the last possible moment? Remember The Block! The lockdown D on Kobe? The lockdown D on McGrady? The destruction of Philly?

Do I need to go on?

Tayshaun has been here, done it all for this fucking Franchise and it's high time some people bowed down and showed some God damn respect to the man.

Did he whine or pout or fuck about last season? Or was he the dude dealing with the media while Sheed and AI smoked up and Rip wept like a bitch?

And people want Turkoglu to take Tay's spot?

Fuck Turkoglu.

I'll take our Glue over that cunt every fucking day of the week.

[BIG BEN'S FRO]

A nice debate. P and Zekyl, gotta disagree. You ask me who is first to move, and Prince and Stuckey are the first on my list before Rip.

P if I recall correctly, I think Prince has struggled against many more SFs than LBJ and PP. I don't know the right web reference, but I am certain that he has been torched in the past BADLY by Wallace, Butler, Granger, Iggy. Now honestly I can accept, my problem is that TP's offensive game is completely worthless against better SFs, and it really isn't because of their D. He just goes into Michael Curry mode. At least with a player like Turk, he may get burned but at least can make his man work a little and get us points. I would rather have ANY of the above SFs over Turk, but TP is awful offensively against the good SFs. IF you can't deliver on D, or on O, isn't that a problem.

Now in the defense of Rip, as Hubie would say ," What you got there is a player who is pretty average on D, but can score the ball, shoot from the line, and make the open 3." He has performed relatively well in the playoffs, and I just don't see us getting a better SG in trade. Can you guys think of SGs who we could actually get who would be better?

Lastly Stuck. I like the guy and want to keep him. That said he is our most valuable trade asset due to his potential. If it takes him to notch us a SUPERSTAR, then I am all for it. Anything but that, and I would rather keep him.

[Pharaoh]

GD - replacing him for half the cost is a great idea.

What real options are there in free agency other than Ariza?

[Glenn]

Why limit it to free agents?

[Pharaoh]

A nice debate. P and Zekyl, gotta disagree. You ask me who is first to move, and Prince and Stuckey are the first on my list before Rip.

Hate to disappoint you but Stuckey ain't going anywhere unless we get offered Bosh or someone on that level. Joe loves him something fierce.

P if I recall correctly, I think Prince has struggled against many more SFs than LBJ and PP. I don't know the right web reference, but I am certain that he has been torched in the past BADLY by Wallace, Butler, Granger, Iggy. Now honestly I can accept, my problem is that TP's offensive game is completely worthless against better SFs, and it really isn't because of their D. He just goes into Michael Curry mode. At least with a player like Turk, he may get burned but at least can make his man work a little and get us points.

My, my, my how the times have changed.

Since when does a Piston fan not value quality D? Turk gets burned by everyone regularly. Tay might get torched every now and then, but regularly? I doubt it.

And yeah his offense disappears - he's been the 4th option every year. What do you expect him to score? Rip's the first option and struggles to average 20 ppg.

Now in the defense of Rip, as Hubie would say ," What you got there is a player who is pretty average on D, but can score the ball, shoot from the line, and make the open 3." He has performed relatively well in the playoffs, and I just don't see us getting a better SG in trade. Can you guys think of SGs who we could actually get who would be better?

Better is relative - Rip is a better player than Ben Gordon, but for the kind of team Joe has said he wants Rip doesn't fit. Can't create his own shot, not a 3 point gunner, not another ball handler.

Lastly Stuck. I like the guy and want to keep him. That said he is our most valuable trade asset due to his potential. If it takes him to notch us a SUPERSTAR, then I am all for it. Anything but that, and I would rather keep him.

Agree there. Like I said if we could send him and something else and land Bosh I'd cosider the off-season a success, regardless of who else we got.

You build your franchise with a quality big. Let's do everything we can to get one and then move on from there.

[BIG BEN'S FRO]

Yeah inside out is definitely the way to build. P I think how we build our roster is going to depend on who is the centerpiece. If you get a player like Bosh, isn't a person who can make an open jumpshot a nice player to have? Even more important, what if you get another player who can create their own shot and distribute? A PG like CP3 would put Rip's value through the roof.

Oh yeah and I am all for great D, but Tay doesn't supply it when it counts. LBJ, Pierce, and many of the other SFs we play against are still going to be there when Tay retires and likely still in the East. Maybe investing in a defensive lockdown is a better investment, as Glenn suggested and using that cash to obtain someone who actually can score when it counts.

And just for perspective, don't question my interest in defense when you are pimping Ben Gordon, who is much of a sieve as Turkoglu.

I am fine with Gordon, but he has the same defensive probs as Turk at but at SG, and combine that with his height. I am also fine with BG at PG, but would rather move Stuckey then to get another big and not be smaller on D.

[Glenn]

I hesitate to post a list of names, because people get so hung up on the list that it sidetracks the discussion at hand, but I know you want names, P.

There's no shortage of SFs that can be had for less money than Tay makes. A lot of them have a lot less mileage on them too. Sure, they are not all as talented/experienced, but if upgrades are made at other positions, Tay's production can be offset pretty well by some of these guys.

Marvin Williams
Linas Kleiza
Kelenna Azubuike
Shane Battier
Al Thornton
Trevor Ariza (FA)
Rudy Gay
Corey Brewer
James Posey
Jared Jeffries
Jeff Green
Mickael Pietrus
Thaddeus Young
Travis Outlaw
Martell Webster
Andres Nocioni

All of these guys make less jack than Tay, and that doesn't really even touch the free agents. I didn't check, but I bet that all or most of them are younger than Tay, too.