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[Uncle Mxy]

My number one priority for my Gov't is to protect and defend this country. I see the Republicans doing a better job.

I don't disagree in principle. I probably disagree in definition, though.

What do you see as our biggest threat that we should protect and defend against? To my way of thinking, our biggest threat is ourselves. We're eager to sell out the principles our society was founded on for a bunch of crap or short-term gain.

How do you define "this country"? Are immigrants that live here "us" or "them'? Is Guantanamo Bay "us" or "them"? Are criminals part of this country?

I like tax cuts too.

See, I like getting value for my money and work toward that. As far as I can tell, this makes me really fucking weird.

There's lots of people in this world who buy silly things because "they're on sale". I'm related to some of them. There's lots of people who don't know how to manage or leverage debt. I'm related to some of them too. There's no end of people who'll mortgage their kids financially for their own gain -- I am pretty close to them. When I hear "tax cuts", I think about the collective money management skills I see people exercise in daily life, and conclude that they wouldn't know a good tax cut (or increase) if it bit them in the ass.

Of course, to be fair, tax cuts/increases are usually presented absent any solid perspective of where the money goes, how it's managed, and some idea of what costs should be given the prevailing conditions. Most everyone at all levels of government lies and spreads FUD about what it'd take to do their job, what priorities ought to be. Nothing is gained by honest assessments. I doubt even the few quality elected officials who care about such things can do more than take broad guesses. Sometimes, some selective tax increases or decreases appear to boost some greater "good", but it's hard to prove. Everyone has anecdotes, pliable statistics, slogans, and something to sell.

Enough ranting for one post...

[Tahoe]

What do you see as our biggest threat that we should protect and defend against?

Any and all. Iran, NK, Terrorists, trying to keep Russia in the fold, etc

To my way of thinking, our biggest threat is ourselves. We're eager to sell out the principles our society was founded on for a bunch of crap or short-term gain.

Do we make mistakes? Yes, but I still see us as one of the best countries.

Not sure what you mean at the end...what is your definition of 'crap' and 'short term gain'?

How do you define "this country"?

Citizens and our shorline.

Are immigrants that live here "us" or "them'?

illegal immigrants? Are mostly attempting to be US citizens. Transitioning.

[Tahoe]

The SHIT is hitting the fan in Pakistan right now. Musharaf declares state of emergency, the Supreme Court told him to fuck off (if I'm absorbing this all correctly), and the revolters are about to take over the nukes.

This could get ugly....ier

[Uncle Mxy]

Don't go imperialistic and start dumb wars without provocation. Don't borrow massive amounts of money that future generations will have to somehow pay off to do it. Don't suspend fundamental rights, like unreasonable search and seizure and habeas corpus. Don't restrict productive immigrants from coming and building in our country. These were the things on my mind when I wrote "sell out the principles our society was founded on for a bunch of crap".

I asked who you think the biggest threat was, and it wasn't clear that you really gave an answer. I think that a whole lot of people would call "job one" for our government "to protect and defend", but there'll be a ton of different answers if you ask "from what -- what's the #1 threat". These priorities color how they feel about government's effectiveness, about who would be the most effective. The leading issue that led to the selection of Bush over Kerry was "moral values", above foreign threats.

This IS ugly....ier

Fixed.

[Tahoe]

Don't go imperialistic and start dumb wars without provocation.

I Don't disagree. I know many feel Iraq was a mistake.


Don't borrow massive amounts of money that future generations will have to somehow pay off to do it.

I wish I knew how many times this has come up just in my lifetime. Our debt to GDP(?)ratios, aren't bad at all.


Don't suspend fundamental rights, like unreasonable search and seizure and habeas corpus.

I don't think we've lost any rights.


Don't restrict productive immigrants from coming and building in our country.

Well, Conservatives are pretty upset with Bush and McCain cuz they are seen as lenient on the issue. I want to know who is in this country. It seems easy, but let them come in and work for 3 years or something, and if you keep your nose clean, its a step toward citizenship. But this goes to the 'protect and defend' part of my argument. We don't even know who is in this country. I'm not worried about hispanic terrorists(cuz there haven't been any) as much as AQ coming across.


These were the things on my mind when I wrote "sell out the principles our society was founded on for a bunch of crap".

I asked who you think the biggest threat was, and it wasn't clear that you really gave an answer. I think that a whole lot of people would call "job one" for our government "to protect and defend", but there'll be a ton of different answers if you ask "from what -- what's the #1 threat". These priorities color how they feel about government's effectiveness, about who would be the most effective. The leading issue that led to the selection of Bush over Kerry was "moral values", above foreign threats.

Without having inside info, I can't evaluate which of my list is numero uno. Iran and Terrorists seem to rise to the top off the top of my head though.

Fixed.

[Uncle Mxy]

When I wrote what I did about productive immigrants, I was thinking of the H-1B program, not so much the raging debate. If someone could come into the U.S. and be immediately productive (has job skills and could pass a TOEFL, isn't a terrorist whackjob or indentured servant), we shouldn't turn their work away. They will just produce elsewhere. If we're lucky, they work for an American firm overseas and maybe we get something back. If we're unlucky, they'll take an American job (or more) in the process. Hell, we used to have migrant workers work here, then go back to Mexico to live, and we built a helluva country on the backs of immigrants.

As for debt as a function of GDP, I've said this before, but viewing debt as a function of GDP gets problematic. As the GDP grows, is it doing so -because- of the added debt or in spite of it, and to what extent does that GDP growth end up mapping back to real increased revenues coming in? If the GDP doesn't grow as much as the debt incurred "should" make it grow -- not exactly the easiest thing to divine -- what then? What does that GDP mean? It's a messy beast relative to a "income in, expenses out" balance sheet, and can be used to prove anything you want.

Lots of people want to infringe on our rights, in cover of darkness (domestic wiretapping), contorting definitions to the point of absurdity (newsflash -- waterboarding is torture, the Internet is not a telephone as much as some people might think otherwise), coaxing elected officials to vote it away (habeas corpus, the odious War On Drugs laws), etc. They're chipped away little by little, one tiny encroachment after another, and eventually it hits you direct long after you've been indirectly bit. You have to give your fucking driver's license to get Claritin-D now. That's really fucking brilliant.

Enough ranting for one day...

[Tahoe]

When I wrote what I did about productive immigrants, I was thinking of the H-1B program, not so much the raging debate. If someone could come into the U.S. and be immediately productive (has job skills and could pass a TOEFL, isn't a terrorist whackjob or indentured servant), we shouldn't turn their work away. They will just produce elsewhere. If we're lucky, they work for an American firm overseas and maybe we get something back. If we're unlucky, they'll take an American job (or more) in the process. Hell, we used to have migrant workers work here, then go back to Mexico to live, and we built a helluva country on the backs of immigrants.

Agree. Maybe we should feel fortunate there is so much corruption in Mexico keeping their economy down.

As for debt as a function of GDP, I've said this before, but viewing debt as a function of GDP gets problematic. As the GDP grows, is it doing so -because- of the added debt or in spite of it, and to what extent does that GDP growth end up mapping back to real increased revenues coming in? If the GDP doesn't grow as much as the debt incurred "should" make it grow -- not exactly the easiest thing to divine -- what then? What does that GDP mean? It's a messy beast relative to a "income in, expenses out" balance sheet, and can be used to prove anything you want.

In spite of, imo. If GDP isn't going up, spending/borrowing HAS to go down. Will our gov't do that? ??? These are such huge dollars that a slight change can make a huge difference in projections. iirc, we are back in the right direction again, as long as Bush keeps his veto pen out.

Lots of people want to infringe on our rights, in cover of darkness (domestic wiretapping), contorting definitions to the point of absurdity (newsflash -- waterboarding is torture, the Internet is not a telephone as much as some people might think otherwise), coaxing elected officials to vote it away (habeas corpus, the odious War On Drugs laws), etc. They're chipped away little by little, one tiny encroachment after another, and eventually it hits you direct long after you've been indirectly bit. You have to give your fucking driver's license to get Claritin-D now. That's really fucking brilliant.

But its only domestic wiretapping if you are calling someone in another country who is a known or suspected terrorist, right? That doesn't bother me in the least.

Waterboarding to me is not torture. It doesn't 'shock my conscience' for our gov't to scare someone. They aren't going to drown. It scares them, cuz those 2 in Pakistan coughed up plenty of info. Its a great tactic cuz it works and doesn't cause any harm.

To me, the question isn't does waterboarding fit someones definition of torture, its whether we should use the tactic or not? And to that, I answer yes.

Enough ranting for one day...

We got this entirely different war going on and we have to be able to 'adjust' (adjust can be a slippery slope can't it?) our tactics. They are cutting off the heads of innocent US citizens over there, we have to be able to run some water over their faces to protect the country and citizens.

[Hermy]

Yeah, but they're only cutting off the heads of US citizens who go to Iraq. That doesn't bother me in the least.

[Tahoe]

The 2 that came to mind when i was wrtting that was a US citzn in Saudia Arabia (not military) and the other non-military kid who helped with communication towers.

Do you have any problem with us saying 'boo' to them?

[Hermy]

Couldn't give 2 shits.