Amir Johnson is still a project.(Also, science project ideas for all you youngsters!)

i'm going to say the thing that everyone's afraid to say: Amir Johnson isn't close to ready.

i really, really, want to buy into the Langlois koolaid and believe that Amir will be the first Pistons' max player, but watching him on the floor.........the dude is still way too raw to be effective. he's extremely agile for a bigman, but he's just too unrefined and he looks clueless when it's not free-wheeling fastbreak basketball. i just don't see any improvement skill-wise since last season. i KNOW he hasn't had much "real" NBA PT, but he's had a chance to play in the NBDL and he's had a few summers to develop his game. this is his third season and he still shoots like a girl (sorry, WNBA) and has no semblance of an offensive game.

i'm going make a prediction and say that Amir barely makes a blip this season. he might average career highs across the board, but those will be deceiving because he'll be in more blow outs, racking up dunks against 3rd stringers.

i think he's still 2-3 years from becoming a reliable bench player. i don't think he's a bust, but i really think he's further off from making an impact than the Piston's brass will lead us to believe. no doubt Amir will be exciting for moments because of his athleticism, but i don't think he's going to be an impact player for 2, 3 maybe 4 years. i stand by my claim that this piston's bench will be exciting/fun to watch (amir being a part of that), i'm just disappointed when i put down my pistons pom-poms and realize that Amir is still more project than player right now.

does anyone else feel this way with Amir? i'm praying that he'll prove me wrong and we can mock and ridicule me for this thread.....

Good post.

I don't think anyone knows for sure what type of player he will be. Can he put on weight and become a power player? Is he a big man that can slash? Can he grow enough to become a Tim Duncan or Jermain O'Neil type of player?

At least Stuck knows what position he is going to play and what to learn.

on a side note (maybe deserves it's own thread), i've been real pleased with Maxiell's rebounding lately. ever since he got called out for being a pussy on the boards, he's gone for double digit rebounds in 5 of his last 6 games.

yea, completely agreed.

just look at his development. hs, where you know he was getting 0 coaching, like, less than grade school coaching.

then he goes to the nbdl where i suspect (never watched) team basketball is literally never played.

so for our purposes, he is 100% raw. hes extremely gifted, sure. but he hasnt even developed his own skill set, let alone found his nitch in the team scheme.

if he plays, it will be a joe d edict, i seriously doubt flip wants any part of him.

Keep in mind he just came off an injury and hasn't played steady minutes in a game atmosphere since the last few games of the regular season last year. So on top of the fact that he is raw, he is rusty.

The one thing that I don't get about this team "developing" players is that they don't ever seem to tweak a players jumpshot form. Tayshaun... Terrible, though a part of me understands since he came here as a solid shooter, and he had too many years of organized basketball under his belt to alter it without screwing him up completely. But Amir was always a project. We didn't have to worry about the transition to the new form screwing him up (the jumper would always be a secondary weapon anyways). Why didn't someone in the Pistons organization work on this with him? Same with Stuckey and his slingshot. It's not like his jumper is anything better than shaky right now, why not help him tweak it for the long run?

Matt, you realize you just commented on a game he played shaking off a month of rust after spraining his ankle, in which he still went 4-4 from the field...right?

You just might want to wait until waiting until he plays in a regular season game before throwing in the towel on him for this season...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FP22

Keep in mind he just came off an injury and hasn't played steady minutes in a game atmosphere since the last few games of the regular season last year. So on top of the fact that he is raw, he is rusty.

The one thing that I don't get about this team "developing" players is that they don't ever seem to tweak a players jumpshot form. Tayshaun... Terrible, though a part of me understands since he came here as a solid shooter, and he had too many years of organized basketball under his belt to alter it without screwing him up completely. But Amir was always a project. We didn't have to worry about the transition to the new form screwing him up (the jumper would always be a secondary weapon anyways). Why didn't someone in the Pistons organization work on this with him? Same with Stuckey and his slingshot. It's not like his jumper is anything better than shaky right now, why not help him tweak it for the long run?

---

Look at Jarvis Hayes. He has the picture-perfect jumper, and he shoots under %40.

Stop critiquing jumpers on appearance, ESPECIALLY when they're secondary weapons, like Amir and Stuckey. If the shit ain't broke, don't fix it. Amir isn't going to ever take a jumper unless the defense dares him to ANYWAY, in which his form really doesn't matter, does it?

It also seems like a very odd time to get on Stuckey about that, since he was hitting his jumper effortlessly last night.

I'm always afraid that threads like this are going to give Keith Langlois a stroke.

I'm looking forward to seeing Amir play some more so I can see what the concern is all about.

I wonder how tolerant we're all going to be when playing the kids starts costing us wins? That is the real storyline of this season IMO.

And Flip Saunders can't afford to lose, which might make him feel like he's being set up to fail.

<enter 010101010101>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kstat

Look at Jarvis Hayes. He has the picture-perfect jumper, and he shoots under %40.

---

That's poor shot selection. Besides, He's been the best jumpshooter on the team so far in the pre-season. 2nd best? Afflalo, another guy with a great looking jumper.

Quote:

---

Stop critiquing jumpers on appearance, ESPECIALLY when they're secondary weapons, like Amir and Stuckey. If the shit ain't broke, don't fix it. Amir isn't going to ever take a jumper unless the defense dares him to ANYWAY, in which his form really doesn't matter, does it?

---

If they want to be just solid role-players, sure. That's fine. But if they want to be great players, they need to hit jumpers. Not just wide-open ones either. KG, Sheed, Bosh, Brand, Dirk, Duncan, etc. All are deadly mid-range shooters. It doesn't matter if they're wide open or have a defender or two in their face.

The problem with Amir is not that his shot doesn't go in, it's the fact that his release point is at his chest. That's going to get swallowed up the second he tries to get it off with a man anywhere in his general vicinity.

And Stuckey is a guard. Even Tony Parker, with Blazing speed, and insane finishing ability needed a jumpshot before he became a great player. Stuckey is quick, but not that quick. Eventually, teams will sag off of Stuckey, and shut off all of his driving lanes. If he can't consistently burn them, he will be in trouble.

Quote:

---

It also seems like a very odd time to get on Stuckey about that, since he was hitting his jumper effortlessly last night.

---

Bad form often results in being very streaky. See Tayshaun. When he's hitting shots, he's hitting everything. When he's missing, he's terrible. I noticed even in the summer league that Stuckey was a hot/cold guy. I give Stuckey a pass for a while (well, once he gets back), but it's something to watch.

I'm not saying either will be bad players (I think both will at the least be good starters in the league), but these are legitimate concerns.

Form may not be the be-all end-all to a good jumpshot, but it sure as hell matters.

For every shooter with a crappy jumpshot in the NBA, how many are there that actually have a good looking jumper?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FP22

Bad form often results in being very streaky. See Tayshaun. When he's hitting shots, he's hitting everything. When he's missing, he's terrible.

---

No, he's not, which is why he ends up on the court for so damn long even with semi-competent reserves. And, Tayshaun's gotten more consistent over time. His shooting streakiness has had more to do with road versus home and who he guards than his Marion-esque jumper.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Uncle Mxy

No, he's not, which is why he ends up on the court for so damn long even with semi-competent reserves. And, Tayshaun's gotten more consistent over time. His shooting streakiness has had more to do with road versus home and who he guards than his Marion-esque jumper.

---

He's on the court so long because he hasn't had a backup that his coach thought was anything better than garbage since Corliss. Plus, even when he's not hitting his jumper, he's doing other things (Defending, posting-up for those hooks, and finishing in transition). His jumpshot, remains very streaky. And I've heard the "it's because he's guarding _______" excuse, I don't really buy it. I hear it a lot whenever we play against the Lebron's and Tay's jumper abandons him. Yet, Tayshaun has had some of his best offensive games against Lebron.

I don't buy the home/road thing either. Last year, he shot 46.4% at home, and 45.7% on the road. But on threes he shot 36.6% at home, and 40.4% on the road. But he just seems to go through extreme peaks an valleys throughout the year. Moreso than the average player. And that's when a good form on his jumpshot would help him. That month or so every year where he can't hit a shot to save his life.

Reggie Miller had an awful looking shot.

It doesn't have to look pretty, but the release point may play a factor. It depends on what his offensive role is when he finally becomes a full time player. most big men could probably get away with mid range shots granny style, because they take them wide open anyway. If Amir attacks the rim (facing it or back to the basket) %80 of the time, then the open jumpers can be from his chest (provided he can hit half of them). If he is supposed to be the primary creator on offense (like Dirk is), then yes it will be a big problem. Marion gets away with his form because he's guarded by smaller players mostly, and he's also got Nash creating space for him with his dribble.

So, it really depends on what Amir's role is before it matters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FP22

I don't buy the home/road thing either. Last year, he shot 46.4% at home, and 45.7% on the road.

---

I meant that in the past tense, which is why I prefaced that with "he's gotten more consistent". He has had his problems with home vs. road, definitely -- it was 48% home, 42% road the year before, and moreso during the playoffs.

Quote:

---

But on threes he shot 36.6% at home, and 40.4% on the road. But he just seems to go through extreme peaks an valleys throughout the year. Moreso than the average player.

---

There were only a couple times last year that Tayshaun shot under 40% for three straight games. Once was between Christmas and New Year's. The other was during the playoffs against Cleveland defending LeBron, where he was just getting worn down over time.

Quote:

---

And that's when a good form on his jumpshot would help him. That month or so every year where he can't hit a shot to save his life.

---

The past couple years, his worst shooting month was February, right around the All Star break, and he still shot 40%-41%. He's nowhere near as streaky as, say, Chauncey, and Chauncey has a better shooting form by far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kstat

Matt, you realize you just commented on a game he played shaking off a month of rust after spraining his ankle, in which he still went 4-4 from the field...right?

You just might want to wait until waiting until he plays in a regular season game before throwing in the towel on him for this season...

---

i'm not talking about the last game by itself. it's how little Amir's progressed when he came into the league, when he was a project. i just think that he's still a project.

like i said, i think he'll get good numbers but that's because he'll play scrub time and get fastbreak dunks.

the reason Tayshaun can't get his jump shot off at will is because of his awful form. he's a superb standstill shooter, but have him shoot off the dribble and it's painful to watch.

Kevin Martin makes Amir look like he should be on a basketball basics instructional video on shooting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kstat

Kevin Martin makes Amir look like he should be on a basketball basics instructional video on shooting.

---

So true. Ultimately, I don't care how Amir or Tay shoot the ball, as long as they stay consistent with form and put the ball in the bucket. I've always been a purist when it comes to shooting form, so I can hardly believe I just typed that . . .

form does matter, though. if he releases his shot low, he isnt getting it off. period. sheed is considered so lethal not because hes that great of a shooter, but he can get off a great shot whenever he wants due to his release point that is ~8'1/2 feet in the air.

if you have a slow and low release, you will never be that affective of a shooter in this league, even if you can make it at a high %.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by b-diddy

form does matter, though. if he releases his shot low, he isnt getting it off. period. sheed is considered so lethal not because hes that great of a shooter, but he can get off a great shot whenever he wants due to his release point that is ~8'1/2 feet in the air.

if you have a slow and low release, you will never be that affective of a shooter in this league, even if you can make it at a high %.

---

ARod's slow bat > Amir's slow and low release

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by b-diddy

if you have a slow and low release, you will never be that affective of a shooter in this league, even if you can make it at a high %.

---

Kevin Martin shoots like a 10-year old girl.

Michael Adams shot like a 10-year old girl, and he was only 5'9."

If you can create space for yourself, you do not need to have a great release point, even if shooting is your #1 specialty and everyone in the gym knows you're going to shoot anytime you touch the ball.

im done with this subject. this is feeling suspiciously like the time you argued young players dont get better.

You're done because I completely contradicted what you just said and you don't have a logical response. All you can do is try to change the subject.

But yeah, since we're clear on that, let's move on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kstat

Kevin Martin shoots like a 10-year old girl.

Michael Adams shot like a 10-year old girl, and he was only 5'9."

If you can create space for yourself, you do not need to have a great release point, even if shooting is your #1 specialty and everyone in the gym knows you're going to shoot anytime you touch the ball.

---

you're comparing Amir to a bunch of guards who have the ball handling skills and quickness to get their shot off. granted, Amir is quick for his size, he's no guard who is going to break his man off the dribble to get his jumper off.

until i see Amir do this in a game, all of your comparisons and examples are meaningless. from what i've seen from him (i was actually in Vegas to watch one of his summer league games), he's still too raw offensively to be an impact player. i stand by my 2-3 year estimation until i see Amir draining open jumpers and/or developing a go-to move with the ball. right now, Amir is merely an agile bigman who can run the floor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matt

until i see Amir do this in a game, all of your comparisons and examples are meaningless. from what i've seen from him (i was actually in Vegas to watch one of his summer league games), he's still too raw offensively to be an impact player. i stand by my 2-3 year estimation until i see Amir draining open jumpers and/or developing a go-to move with the ball. right now, Amir is merely an agile bigman who can run the floor.

---

That's a mighty fine trump card.

Whats the over/under on minutes played for Amir in the opener???

My guess is he'll get 5 minutes in the first half, maybe another 4 or 5 in the 3rd quarter, and none in the 4th...

so set the line at 10.5...i say under

Well, McCoskey says he's out of the rotation right now, so he'll have to work his way in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Glenn

Well, McCoskey says he's out of the rotation right now, so he'll have to work his way in.

---

4 million per and he's not even going to see the floor?? is it because of his injury or just b/c he's not ready yet?

A little of both, I'm sure.

What happened to waiting 'til the guy gets some burn before jumping to conclusions... according to Flip he's still having trouble holding position in the box (ankle)... so far his shooting % should not be questioned (NBA or or D-league)... Jmax is ahead of the game so far and deserves a larger share of the
PT until Amir wins the battles.

before i get labeled as anti-Amir, all i'm saying is that he's farther from being a contributing player than the hype from the front office will lead us to believe. he's got the physical gifts to become a special player, but i don't think it's going to "click" for him until another few years.

all the Langlois nonsense (the first piston's max player??) and blurbs from blogs would lead you to think Amir's going to break out this season. i just don't see it happening. i'd love to be proven wrong in this case, of course.

OTOH, Maxiell, Hayes, Stuckey, and even Afflalo have shown some promise as key contributers this season. Maxiell's game is more complete now with outside jumpers and he seems to be focused on rebounding. Stuckey seemed to get better and better. That last game when he got hurt, he showed some outside range and started to heat up. Stuckey's efficient driving to the hoop, but if he can get that outside jumper going he's going to live up to the hype. Jarvis Hayes even looks like a Joe D-certified steal of the summer. There's something about Afflalo's game that i really like and he even showed some outside range towards the end of preseason (wasn't he supposed to be a good shooter in college?).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matt

before i get labeled as anti-Amir, all i'm saying is that he's farther from being a contributing player than the hype from the front office will lead us to believe. he's got the physical gifts to become a special player, but i don't think it's going to "click" for him until another few years.

---

What concerns me is that he can go from "explosive" and engaged on the court, looking like the next Amare, to "wouldn't know he was playing". Maxiell, as a contrast, seems to make everyone "aware" of his presence on the court more frequently. I'm not sure if that's a lack of comfort on the court on Amir's part, lack of familiarity with plays, etc. because I haven't seen him play enough. I agree with the titular sentiment that he is still a project, but I can envision him putting it together in a hurry and being an effective part of the team.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matt

i'm going to say the thing that everyone's afraid to say: Amir Johnson isn't close to ready.

i really, really, want to buy into the Langlois koolaid and believe that Amir will be the first Pistons' max player, but watching him on the floor.........the dude is still way too raw to be effective. he's extremely agile for a bigman, but he's just too unrefined and he looks clueless when it's not free-wheeling fastbreak basketball. i just don't see any improvement skill-wise since last season. i KNOW he hasn't had much "real" NBA PT, but he's had a chance to play in the NBDL and he's had a few summers to develop his game. this is his third season and he still shoots like a girl (sorry, WNBA) and has no semblance of an offensive game.

i'm going make a prediction and say that Amir barely makes a blip this season. he might average career highs across the board, but those will be deceiving because he'll be in more blow outs, racking up dunks against 3rd stringers.

i think he's still 2-3 years from becoming a reliable bench player. i don't think he's a bust, but i really think he's further off from making an impact than the Piston's brass will lead us to believe. no doubt Amir will be exciting for moments because of his athleticism, but i don't think he's going to be an impact player for 2, 3 maybe 4 years. i stand by my claim that this piston's bench will be exciting/fun to watch (amir being a part of that), i'm just disappointed when i put down my pistons pom-poms and realize that Amir is still more project than player right now.

does anyone else feel this way with Amir? i'm praying that he'll prove me wrong and we can mock and ridicule me for this thread.....

---

:cogent:

Huge upside, but he is raw. I tried to key on him last night.

Wait wait, so you're suggesting the local detroit media was just spinning what the front office wanted out there????????????????????

I never would have imagined.

btw, what's this week's excuse for the lack of Amir now? is he still "recovering from his injury"??

He's not good at basketball.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hermy

He's not good at basketball.

---

h8r!

It's pretty obvious now that they gave him that big contract just so his salary could be included in a trade for Kobe.








I AM ONLY KIDDING!! I STILL BELIEVE IN YOU, AMIR!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by metr0man

btw, what's this week's excuse for the lack of Amir now? is he still "recovering from his injury"??

---

kstat defended him, so it only makes sense that he now sucks. had kstat taken the other position, im sure we'd be talking about an amir mvp right now. im telling you, its uncanny kstat's ability to always be wrong.

Still a project, but fun as hell to watch.

Amir's issue is conditioning from what I see. He loses leaping and as he's in the game longer i noticed and agility. Gotta get his legs better. Needs to be more ballsy a shooter again. They were giving him that jump shot all night. Take it to force honesty.