Here's a bit of a thinkpiece for you guys.

Painting me as painting large populations with a broad brush is unfair. I have had my experiences with catholicism (raised in that, um, church), and many many Sundays spent in many many churches, and have dealt with many many christians. I haven't locked myself in a closet and decided that christians are goofing up the Message.
I have encountered many many christians, as I've said; I find very very few (if any) to be truly spiritual. What I DO find is people with an attachment to their church and their pastor, and actually believing that a talking snake made two people eat an apple, and the rest of the story. Or, at least saying they do (believe that? Fucking stupid!)
Listen, the message that comes down is as Big Swami says: Here's our story, we're sticking to it, give us alot of money (funny how every faction of christianity has its own way of interpreting God's word, but they ALL agree on tithing) and oh, by the way, you'll always fail, there is nothing you can do unless God's grace saves you. Fucking bullshit.
No one is saying that christians aren't, or don't try to be very nice people.
But they ascribe to a primitive culture that needs the affirmation of others telling them that "Jesus loves you", and they ascribe (is ascribe even a word?)
to an outdated, slyly crafted code of rules and regs that quite frankly, if it were writen today would be laughed at.
Now, I haven't had a "bad" or "traumatic" experience with christianity, just the feeling when I'm around them that they just aren't all there, and aren;t really all that sincere. In large part, I get the feeling that this new addiction replaced old ones, or saved them from themselves in alot of cases.
And I do believe that christians and muslims believe they have a coming war, a current war, and as usual, all of humanity will suffer when they really finally decide to go at it.

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Originally Posted by Fool

You said:
As though its the religion that makes them incapable of critical judgment rather than the abuse of the religion.

Or, they could just not go to church at all, neither a good nor an abusive one, and nothing bad would have happened. See where I'm headed with this?

[/quote]Perhaps you should do a little more personal research then. I think Zip's tendency to label entire populations is rubbing off on you. There are plenty of Christians trying their best to be (and help others to be) as Christ-like as possible. And its kind of sad and definately unfair to them to dismiss them simply because you don't hang out with them or limit your focus to others.[/quote]

I actually need to stop and give you some credit here. I have not met every single Christian in the world. There are almost certainly some awesome people out there. But I remain in agreement with Stephen Weinberg, who said, "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil. But for good people to do evil -- that takes religion."

Quote:

I said "limited" as in not the whole story (or theology in this case).

Help me out here.

I have a huge problem with the concept of Jesus being God incarnate. With that statement, you have more than intimated that people can NOT be christ-like, or christ, period.
Why did "God" have to come down here? What would he need to prove? Why would he need "miracles" to "prove" he was there?
Jesus weren;t God. He were a main. A great main, who tried to tell us we were just like him. All it takes is faith.
We have no faith. We have religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Swami

Or, they could just not go to church at all, neither a good nor an abusive one, and nothing bad would have happened. See where I'm headed with this?

Perhaps you should do a little more personal research then. I think Zip's tendency to label entire populations is rubbing off on you. There are plenty of Christians trying their best to be (and help others to be) as Christ-like as possible. And its kind of sad and definately unfair to them to dismiss them simply because you don't hang out with them or limit your focus to others.

I actually need to stop and give you some credit here. I have not met every single Christian in the world. There are almost certainly some awesome people out there. But I remain in agreement with Stephen Weinberg, who said, "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil. But for good people to do evil -- that takes religion."

Help me out here.

Keep your credit. And are you kidding me with the implication that all evil people are religious? That's really a reply to both of the first two sections.

Limited as in not the whole story. If you want to cut off Christian theology there and act like its the whole package then you are either consciously portraying the creeds of Christianity in a biased light or you are just seeing what you want to see.

Zip, those questions are basic sunday school lessons. No, no man/woman can be as perfect as Christians are supposed to believe Jesus was. In that way he is always a goal to strive for and a strength to fall back on. As for all the "why did God do what he did". Pick up almost any book in the religious inspirational section and the answers to those questions will be in chapter 1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fool

Keep your credit. And are you kidding me with the implication that all evil people are religious? That's really a reply to both of the first two sections.

Limited as in not the whole story. If you want to cut off Christian theology there and act like its the whole package then you are either consciously portraying the creeds of Christianity in a biased light or you are just seeing what you want to see.

Zip, those questions are basic sunday school lessons. No, no man/woman can be as perfect as Christians are supposed to believe Jesus was. In that way he is always a goal to strive for and a strength to fall back on. As for all the "why did God do what he did". Pick up almost any book in the religious inspirational section and the answers to those questions will be in chapter 1.

Of COURSE I see it in a biased light, Fool! I think it's total bullshit! The only refernce guides christians have is their made up book of stories and parables, the bible. You want to talk about basics and rudimentaries? Talk about circular reasoning or something like that. That's what christians use to "prove" their points or teachings.
I completely disagree with your point on Jesus: Show me a scripture where he said man couldn't be like him; I think his teachings were that we could. BUT, like I said, that wasn;t good enough for religion, that would take away their control of the masses. Jesus had to be made into god so people would always fail and need to go to church.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fool

Keep your credit. And are you kidding me with the implication that all evil people are religious? That's really a reply to both of the first two sections.

I was not implying anything of the sort, and I really do apologize if it came off that way; I don't think all evil people are religious. I'm religious in my own way. I offer a sincere apology for missing my mark there - I'm not a polemicist, I'm just a sloppy writer who doesn't always say what he means.

What I'm trying to say is that religion isn't necessarily, but can be, a force that causes a person to act against the dictates of his conscience. It isn't a certainty, but it does happen. And it doesn't happen if you choose not to participate in any religion. I hope that's a little clearer.

Quote:

Limited as in not the whole story. If you want to cut off Christian theology there and act like its the whole package then you are either consciously portraying the creeds of Christianity in a biased light or you are just seeing what you want to see.

There's no doubt that I'm no theologian. I don't try to pretend like I know everything there is to know about Christian theology. In fact, I haven't been in a church in over a year, and even then it was a Unitarian church, so it wasn't a Christian church, strictly speaking. I know I'm missing some information here, and I'm curious to hear more.

Don't think I'm just trying to jump all over you. I've told you that I like Jesus. But I see the nuns on TV, and the politicians trying to tell us that "America is a Christian nation," and the church groups who take over local school boards and shut down the sex education programs, and stories about megachurches with Christian rock concerts and ATMs in the lobby, and that might as well be on a different planet from the Jesus I read about in the Bible.

The Jesus you read about in the Bible believes there is another plane, another place, another reality beyond that which we can sense here on Earth.

Do you?

I'll take the polemicist baton, Swami, because chrisitanity is hammering away from the other side.
Fool, one thing here: Your keep going back to the "Oh, if you only knew" tack. My questions regarding God that you suggest a look into a "See Dick and Jane Go To Church" book were asked in an ironic sense, as in, "God" don;t need to prove nothin' to no one.
The Greeks had gods who came down here to do a little mingling. The christians and Jews simpy re wrote it to fit their monotheism and to give credence to their authority and mythology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development

an interesting article on point to some of the topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by giffman

The Jesus you read about in the Bible believes there is another plane, another place, another reality beyond that which we can sense here on Earth.

Do you?

I'm willing to accept that the universe is a very complicated place, but if you're asking me whether or not there is a Heaven where God, the angels, and the saintly dead live forever, I don't know if I can buy something that specific.

I don't want to sound glib, but, since I'm not a Christian, I don't have to believe everything in the Bible. I can pick and choose the stuff that really stands out to me. I can't hide the fact that Matthew 6:28-29 just really makes a huge impression on me every time I read it. But at the same time, I can't hide the fact that Luke 14:26 is really disturbing. I'm willing to deal with the bad if the good stuff is very good.

And Deuteronomy 13:6-10...don't even get me started.