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Where have I EVER said that losing Corliss no longer made us a contendet you lying cock sucker? I've said giving him away for nothing hurt our depth and not having his expiring contract right now hurts our ability to improve the team. Just shut the fuck up you fucking bought and paid for stooge.Quote:
Originally Posted by The guy under Tom Wilson's desk
I'm not even saying hold on to Corliss for 2 years.
I'm saying move him for another asset (DC)
We didn't even get a pick in that deal.
When that asset proved to be faulty we couldn't even get a pick for it, not even a second rounder and a TE.
We got nothing for the former 6th Man of the Year!
We dealt him because two years down the road we might have to pay the luxury tax FOR ONE YEAR. We were sold that giving Corliss away for NOTHING was needed to keep Ben and Tay. Then when the time came and clearing his salary would've helped avoid the luxury tax THE TEAM DOESN'T ANTE UP AND PAY WALLACE. We lost a 4 time DPOY over $3 million a year. We gave away Corliss for NOTHING.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
We didn't ante up because he wasn't worth the price.
He wasn't even worth what we offered him.
Yeah who needs a 4 time DPOY and 5 time all-star when you can have Nazr Mohammed.
What excuse will you have next year when some team outbids the Pistons for Chauncey?
I've already been on record saying Chauncey will be worth as much as $14 million next season. If he improves a little on last season and averages 20/10, he'll be worth $15 million.Quote:
Originally Posted by the wrath of diddy
But if another team decides to throw Iverson money at him? I'd be fine with letting him walk too, and he's probably my favorite Piston. That's the kind of money you only pay a superstar, which chauncey is on the cusp of but isn't.
Of course, no PG since Tim Hardaway 15 years ago has been able to reach 20/10, so that might change my opinion about him being a superstar. Then again, Tim wasn't really a superstar then, either.
Your favorite Piston is Bill Davidson and Tom Wilson is 2nd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
A 5 time All-Star is not a superstar?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
That's what I don't get. Before Shaq came to the East, Ben was the fan concensus best center in the conference. He was our superstar. People all over the world identify Ben with the Detroit Pistons.
I dunno where you grew up, but in the 90s, folks were sporting Hardaway jerseys on the blacktop.
1. A player isn't a superstar because he sells jerseys. Tim was a very good player in his prime, but never was he a dominant superstar. Of course, injuries may have robbed him of the chance to reach that level.Quote:
Originally Posted by themicrowave
2. Ben's not a superstar. Even in his prime he wasn't a superstar. He was an all-star calibur center that I don't think has more than one all-star appearance left in him.
How many more all-star caliber years do you think Nazr has left in him?
I don't know, with that $60 million deal we signed him to, he's certainly got a lot to live up to.Quote:
Originally Posted by the wrath of diddy
Define a superstar. Be sure to leave out captaincy, All-Star selections, statistical brilliance and jersey sales.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
Did you think that was a challenge? That's pretty damn easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by themicrowave
A player that can dominate any given game all by himself, regardless of who's defending him.
Iverson, Wade, LeBron, Shaq, Kobe, KG and Nash are all superstars. Duncan was a superstar before last year, but that may have been due to injury. Same goes for T-Mac.
Guys on the cusp but not quite there yet are Arenas, Chauncey, Pierce, Yao, Amare, Parker, Howard, Allen, Brand, Redd and Artest.
Dirk was a superstar this year, but to call him one in general may be a bit hasty.
Ben could be the best help-defender on earth, but he's not a superstar. Rodman was never a superstar either. The complete lack of offense is too difficult to ignore.
Added to that, the fact ben is a mediocre DEFENSIVE player man-to-man.
So you are saying that a defender cannot be a superstar?
Steve Nash is to defense what Ben Wallace is to offense.
I'm saying a defensive specialist that can't play offense can't be a superstar.Quote:
Originally Posted by themicrowave
Russell was a superstar because of his defense, but he also put up 15-18 ppg consistently. Same thing with Mutombo in his prime.
You also can't compare Ben and Nash, because you can hide a poor defender so much more easily than you can hide a poor offensive player in the NBA.
There are also more holes in ben's offense (man-to-man) then there are in Nash's offense.
10 years ago, it might have been a different story. Then again, Rodman wasn't a superstar then either.
Well, the whole superstar debate is a subjective one. But I really think that Ben was a legitemate superstar. When the Pistons played a half court game he was one of the few players in the league that could affect the game by his mere presence. How could he do this? He was an exceptional weak side defender. Even if the great slashers of the day were able to get around Tay, Chauncey, Rip or Stackhouse Wallace would be waiting for them in the paint forcing them to alter their shot or end up swatting it into the stands. Wallace had an MO that was unique and he was one of the biggest reasons the Pistons were perennial playoff teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
Ben was known for his hard work, great timing and remarkeable leaping ability. While Iverson, Wade and Jordan are known for entirely different things that does not mean that Wallace was not a superstar merely because he couldn't score.
With that said his value for the Pistons has significantly dwindled because the Pistons no longer play the type of basketball that suits his style. This statement may not satisfy everyone but I think that Ben going to the Bulls was the best possible solution for all parties. It allows the Pistons to play youth and it allows Ben to play in a defense first system.
you're right- nash may be to defense what wallace is to offense. but the thing that really matters is that the nba now caters COMPLETELY to offense. defense is practically illegal.
so IMO you're much better off to have an offensive player who can't defend than a defender who can't play offense.
a guy like nash can be hidden a lot by good team D. ben can't hide out there on the offensive end, especially come playoff time.
JMO
I don't think the NBA supports Ben Wallace dominating like he used to.
I agree our system doesn't fit Ben anymore, but I don't see him fitting in much better in Chicago. When they realize they can't score with any of their frontcourt players, Skiles will change things and you'll see Ben blow up there like he did here.
Of course, Skiles won't be punked by anyone (the man fought Magic Johnson in an MSU alumni game, he won't think twice about Ben Wallace), so it will probably get a lot worse than it did here.
That's more brainwashing. Did anyone watch the Heat totally intimdate and rough up the Mavs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Higherwarrior
Miami broke 100 ONCE in their last 12 playoff games and that one time took overtime for the love of pete. This offense first NBA is what they want, but defense still wins titles.
Funny, I could have sworn that Dwayne Wade is what won them the title...Quote:
Originally Posted by themicrowave
Other than Zo, nobody really played defense on Miami. And Zo could actually score a little, which allowed him to be on the floor late in the game, unlike Ben.
flip murray wooohoo!! i have two guys i dislike on this team.[smilie=grumble.gif]
call it whatever you want. but i have my own opinion and do not rely on ANY outsiders to influence it. if you knew me you would understand that. there's no need to try and fit me in some category of people who believe whatever they're told, just because you don't like my opinion.
the heat played good team defense and benefitted greatly by having 2 superstar players, one in particular, who could get to the line. wade benefitted from the fact that the mavs weren't allowed to play any D on him. i don't think there's anyone who will dispute that fact.
finally, what one-way defensive player do the heat have? none. they have guys who play good D (posey, zo come immediately to mind) but who can also put the ball in the hole.
Payton, Shandon Anderson, Haslem, Posey...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
I almost want to give up arguing with you, but then I won't have an excuse to not do laundry. Yep, you narrowly edge out dirty socks and skidmarked boxers.
we have a bunch of good defenders too. and we fell woefully short of winning. so what's the point?
nobody is saying ben is the reason we lost. at least, i sure hope not.
but what each of those guys you mentioned on the heat can also do, is score when needed. or get to the line and score. ben is a horrible offensive player, i don't care what his shooting percentage looks like.
and even if he could score, teams exposed him by purposely fouling him and sending him to the line, and he struggled to even make 1 of 2. so in effect, he was a one way player, who was not even being allowed to play defense with the way the game is being officiated.
this team is pretty soft and unfortunately Flip isnt a good enough slasher. Doesnt pass well, isnt the greastest ballhandler, doesn't score over bigger defenders, and will probally set up for more spot up jumpers than he should at his not so good FG %.
Joe D, you are garbage this offseason(so far), and i say that with all due respect to you as our gm. I'd still wouldnt want any other guy running our team. but damn we are not contending with the west or the Heat probally. I applaud Joe's effort to get something done. Though the results arent really great additions IMO(i'm trying to give nazr a pass, but what i've seen from him against us says otherwise).
Either way i definately think we are a playoff team. but i thought we were w/o these two guys. in fact i dont think we improved where we rank in the east one bit with them. Hopefully they'll prove me wrong. I also hoped my worries about Flip's effect on this team and its identity wouldn't be too significant. Hoping sucks as of late.[smilie=grumble.gif]
Scoring responsibility was based around Ben as a 5th option. It was always Hamilton => Billups => Sheed => PrinceQuote:
Originally Posted by Higherwarrior
When 4 guys come up short, I laugh in the general direction of folks who want to point out Ben's offensive deficiencies.
And the perimeter defense is how the game is being manipulated by the refs. In this regard, Ben is a superior deterrent to finishing than Nazr Mohammed. It wasn't Ben being legislated out of the game. It was Rip and Tay's hand checking, and Lindsey's phone booth defense. Teams cannot keep Dwyane Wade out of the paint, making it that much more necessary to have a good defensive rebounder and shot blocker down low.
which is why i said our loss was not solely due to ben; our guys were tired out there and had dead legs.
but a large part was the fact the heat were able to double off of ben and that clogged up our whole offense and ball movement. flip should have found a way to make the heat pay for this, as LB would have but he didn't. so he too deserves blame.
but a large part of why our guys could not score was because they are not penetrators and ben did not need to be guarded which made everyone else easier to guard.
plus we could have moved the ball a little better if we weren't so worried they would foul ben and send him to the line.
Here is a Kstat Komedy Klassice from another board
It wouldn't have been okay to trade Ben if we weren't willing to pay to keep him but it's okay to trade Chauncey if we don't want to pay what it takes to keep him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
Straight on the Wilson payroll.
Yep, whatever you say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dickless Coward
BTW, if you'd like I can drag your posts here from other boards as well.
Greatest. Comeback. EVER.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Davidson's fisting bitch (come on Bill stick it in up to the elbow)
im getting really tired of you reshaping the truth to fit YOUR argument. if you want to talk basketball sensibly, fine. if you want to argue just to argue, then what's the point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
everyone can see you've blatantly got an agenda, and that your willing to say assinine things just to make a point.
why dont you take a few days away from the website? at this point, i doubt you know where you stand on issues, and that you just come up with counterarguments to whatever anyone says.
Ben's a mediocre man-to-man defensive player. I could make a list a mile long of guys that have killed him in the post. I don't think more than 5 people outside of detroit and chicago would disagree with me.
Shit, even when Ben was in his statistical prime in 2002, Antonio Davis absolutely abused him on the low block in the playoffs.
me:except for all those guys who voted for him dpoy 4 times.
kstat: 'he was voted dpoy for his weakside defense, not his man-to-man'.
me: how do you explain ben switching to the best scorer in late game scenarios? how do explain all the highlights of ben sending a shot back in the dudes face while in man-to-man? how do you explain ben being the only one to guard shaq in the entire miami series?
kstat: and alot of good ben did us against miami. lol.
me: *steps away from computer and rips apart pillow in frustration*
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there, i just saved us 20 minutes, and i didnt even have to tear apart the pillow.
You're just making shit up now.
Remember all those times ben hit threes, or dunked from the FT line?
Please. Ben never gets switched on to the other team's best player except when we're in foul trouble, and he almost never blocks a shot unless it comes from the weak side or from behind. He might have one block every now and then, but certainly not nearly as many as he gets weakside.
Oh and BTW, Ben never shuts down Shaq. SHaq's numbers aren't any worse against us than most other teams.
Ben simply makes him work more for his points, and we hope by the 4th quarter, he's out of gas.
Of course, nobody can shut down shaq. But that also includes Ben.
You mean like when he never switched onto LeBron on the perimeter and LBJ passed off rather than try to drive on Ben?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
You mean when he never blocked Shaq so hard it broke my window?
or, off the top of my head, duncan several times. in fact, im quite certain ben got the dpoy my sophomore year of college... 2003 (?), for his man-to-man block on tim duncan on martin luther king day (it was at the end of the game).
never question my memory. EVER.
Yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by themicrowave
Of course, Ben got dunked through the rim the next 4 times shaq caught the ball, but yes, it was a hell of a block.
Every now and then, ben will get one of those, but itll be sandwiched between getting 4 or 5 baskets scored on him.
And yes, Ben is probably a better perimeter defender than post defender because of his size and quickness. It's pretty easy to get shots off on ben one-on-one because he's only 6'8" and there's only so much he can do against taller players. By posting him up on the low block, you pretty much eliminate him as a shot-blocker, and Ben's only resort is to try to poke the ball away.
actually, if memory serves me correctly, didn't Lebron drive right past ben and dunk on him?Quote:
Originally Posted by themicrowave
well, i was right that pistons played the spurs MLK day of 2003, but thats not the game i was thinking of, i dont think.
Yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt
LeBron's hit three over ben, missed threes over ben, he's passed the ball off, and he's also put it on the floor and dunked on him.
Ben's as good a center as there is at guarding the perimeter, but that's not saying much.