I'm shocked anyone can think Nazr Mohammed isn't any better than Kelvin Cato. .....Quote:
Originally Posted by Train Wreck
It's a haterade summer. Anyone we aquire will be ripped on and dismissed.
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I'm shocked anyone can think Nazr Mohammed isn't any better than Kelvin Cato. .....Quote:
Originally Posted by Train Wreck
It's a haterade summer. Anyone we aquire will be ripped on and dismissed.
It's disappointmentade. Everyone was hoping that we'd re-sign Ben and find a way to get Bonzi. Instead we have Nazr and Flip. Can't blame people for being underwhelmed.
Kelvin Cato is better than Mohammed if we keep the MLE to actually upgrade the bench to compensate for the loss in the starting lineup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
We had Bird rights on 3 players, and lost one (Ben), the other remains in limbo (Cato) and the last was a guy you could take or leave (Hunter).
I'd say that is a somewhat fair assessment. To even the casual observer this team seems to be separating itself from the Miamis and San Antonios of the NBA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
Riley blew up the Heat but brought in more raw talent, the only question was would it mesh. We definitely did not add a lot of talent or depth this offseason.
Cato is crap. His best season was 7 and 7 for a lotto team.
It's a wash
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...submit=Compare
Cato's last full season ('05) vs. Nazr. last year.
Nazr put up basically the same numbers in 7 fewer minutes per games?
Sounds like a wash to me....
Nevermind the fact Nazr is a hell of a lot better defending the post, this is a stupid comparison.
Seems to me that Cato had significantly more blocks, steals, rebounds, and less turnovers. Nazr had the same # of fouls in 7 less minutes, which probably had a bit to do with why he played 7 less minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
Cato was never a bad defensive center. He just never had much offense, but at least he could make a FT better than Ben.Quote:
Nevermind the fact Nazr is a hell of a lot better defending the post, this is a stupid comparison.
He gets more blocks, but only because he jumps at everything in the air. Blocked shots aren't a sign of good man-to-man defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Mxy
No, he was never BAD, but Nazr's very good man-to-man.Quote:
Cato was never a bad defensive center. He just never had much offense, but at least he could make a FT better than Ben.
Cato would probably block more shots off the ball, but he's so undisciplined his man would score a lot more too.
Which is why I think Joe Dumars is doing one of the worst jobs in the NBA this offseason.Quote:
Originally Posted by themicrowave
Please don't anyone here suggest that we can't rip on Joe for his work product in the past two years, since he did so well the two years before that.
I don't care how many rabbits he pulled out of his hat a few years ago.
His last two years have sucked, and he deserves blame for it.
Traded away good players for nothing (Corliss, etc.). Let good salary swap guys go for nothing (Coleman, etc.), let a cheap backup Shaq stopping center retire (Elden) and signed a much worse (and shorter and lighter and therefore non-Shaq-stopping) center for more years and more money (Davis), trading Darko for an expiring contract, did nothing with the expiring contract, let Ben go w/o working a s/t, didn't trade Darko for Al Harrington when he had the chance, signed Lindsey Hunter for at least twice his worth, etc.
LOL, Joe's to blame for Elden retiring?
Joe's to blame for us not getting value for Derrick Coleman?
Some stuff is vaild, some other stuff is just reaching for shit.
Ok, so let me ask you: how long until you think Dumars should be fired?
Which current GMs would you rather have on this team?
While i'll be the first to admit Joe could have done better, I sure as hell realize that no GM is perfect, and Joe's successes have been better than %90 of the GMs in the league. Shit happens.
Not dealing Darko for Harrington when we had the chance is Joe's fault and that cost us the title in 05.
Giving away Corliss, Darko, Arroyo and Evans are all about Davidson's cheapness. THe no luxury tax edict forced Joe to make those crap moves.
Yes. We needed a Coleman-sized contract for Utah to waive as part of the trade for Arroyo, but Dumars had already waived Coleman for no good reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
...Didn't Coleman retire before we ever made the trade?Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Mxy
Even so, what did it matter, since we got elden back anyway?
Coleman was cut. He retired after that because nobody wanted him.
I agree with WOD on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by the wrath of diddy
And for anyone who thinks Cato is anywhere near Nazr talentwise needs to go jump off a fucking cliff.
There could be a reason why Cato hasnt played significent minutes on a Detroit team who had no backup center. There could be a reason why no team has yet to sign him.
I wonder why. Because he fucking blows ass right now. Cato would be lucky right now if he could make even 40% of his free throws.. Cato would be lucky if he could grab 5 rebounds and score 8 points. Cato isnt't exactly done, but Nazr is worth ALOT more than him.
But that is why you sign Cato using Bird Rights to a small deal so he doesn't impact the tax situation, and then look at what you can do significantly with the MLE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross
No one wanted to see Dale Davis as our starting center 2 weeks ago, but today, I would take it if we used the BAE on a scrub center (3rd string behind Cato/Davis) and spent the MLE on someone who can produce, create a shot, cause matchup problems, finish, rebound etc.
You never know. A team like the Kings might have bit on a S&T Cato + MLE for Wells.
Options. You gotta be willing to spend, and accumulate salary to have those options. Especially when you are over the cap because FA is very limiting for teams working only with exceptions.
You can't combine the MLE with another player to make a trade and even if you could the Kings could get a helluva lot more than that for Bonzi.
maybe its time for the pistons to change philosophy. rather than 5 good players, go get 2 or 3 superstars. surround the stars with interchangeable parts. that way, you'll always beable to keep the core together and keep your salaries in line.
Last I checked, Joe's philosophy has worked pretty damn well.
Just because we aren't winning championships every year doesn't mean his system doesn't work, or that junking it is the way to go.
Joe's philosophy worked well when all those players were underpaid. As soon as you have to pay those guys what the market demands it's falls apart thanks you know who.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the wrath of diddy
I couldn't agree more. Frankly, Flip Murray is an excellent signing for what we are paying him. He held his own quite well in the playoffs against the Pistons last season when he replaced Hughes.
Sure, his scorring wasn't that great but let's not forget who Cleveland's offence was running through. It's not as though the offence was geared for him.
Defensively he looked serviceable. I think he was guarding Chauncey in the game I watched and when he did Chauncey pretty much did a dissapearing act. I'm not going to say that this was all due to Flip Murray but he did a good enough job.
I know this may produce snickers but I like what Joe is doing here. It looks like he is attempting to reproduce the depth that helped this team win the first championship.
Some people may think other wise but I don't think playing the final game in San Antonio had as much to do with the Pistons not repeating as some claim. It had more to do with loosing Corliss Williamson and Mehmet Okur or at least the production off of the bench that they provided. Depth has been a consistant element in the Pistons success for the previous four years. The last two years everyone has bought into the ideal that the Pistons starting 5 were the best in basketball which may be true but when you ride the same guys over a four year span and an 82 game schedule they are bound to run out of gas.
Now Joe is obtaining serviceable vets and indicating the need to have eight guys capable of comming into the game and producing. This is a good strategy.
In regards to whether or not Flip will work or not has a lot to do with Flip Saunders. How will he use him etc. Will he play Murray at the expence of younger players like he did last year etc?
We had 8+ last year.
Wallace
Wallace
Prince
Hamilton
Billups
McDyess
Davis
Evans
Delfino
Delk
Hunter
Keyword here is PRODUCING. The starting 5 and McDyess were certainly producers, while the remaining four produced in spurts. We never knew who we could count on to do it on a given night. Corliss and Memo were almost always good for decent points and boards in limited minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by themicrowave
Oops, duplicate post. Feel free to delete this one, Mods.Quote:
Originally Posted by themicrowave
Quote:
Originally Posted by themicrowave
But things are different from last year. Last year the Pistons thought they lost the championship because they didn't have home court advantage. So we rode the starting five the whole year. The bench was only used to give the starting unit a breather. As a result instead of losing in the last game of the Championship series we end up losing in the ECF. This year Joe has been quoted as saying that he is more interested in finding depth for this team. I interpret this as meaning that he wants to use the bench as a weapon again like it was used when they had Barry, Okur, and Williamson.
One other thing I forgot to mention is the variety of skill sets on the championship team. Mehmet Okur was a seven footer that could nail the three while Corliss scored points in the paint. Okurs length required a big to defend against him and thereby spread the defence while Corliss could occupy the paint. I won't even spend time explaining the different things that Lindsey Hunter and Mike James brought to the table. Now compare that to last years bench. Where are the points in the paint? Every one of those backup players is a jump shooter except for Delfino. There's no variety and it's easy to defend against.
Now Joe has another slasher in Murray (if what I'm told is true) and he's got a different game than Chauncey. Nazr is no Ben Wallace defensively but last year Ben was rareley Ben due to the transition game that the Pistons rely more on now.
The rules for the game have changed. The league is looking to open it up more. The half court game that Ben relied on has been replaced by a full court up tempo system. I'm not predicting that he will be an all star but Nazr should be serviceable in this new system. So, I don't think we are going to miss Ben as much as some are expecting (until we play the Bulls that is).
It looks like Joe sees things in the same way and therefore doesn't see a need to blow the team up. The Pistons are still in pretty good shape. Even without Wallace there are still five guys who have been All Stars. So Joe is working on the bench.
Great posts swarm, welcome.
There is truth to this, no matter how Kstat spins it.Quote:
Originally Posted by the wrath of diddy
You get Chauncey, Rip, Tay, AND Ben for peanuts?
The only guy who ever got even close to 1/4 what he was worth during our championship run was Sheed.
Joe D. kinda had it like Ken Holland for a while.
He had a ton of great talent, with not a care in the world about the salary cap.
With Holland, his luster wore off once the salary cap was instituted and he couldn't just buy players with no regard to price.
With Joe, his luster wore off as soon as his starting five stopped being the best bargains in the NBA, and he had to figure out a way to pay his best players more than half of what they are actually worth on the open market.
That's bullshit.
Joe has NEVER lowballed a starter. He's paid them what they were worth, no more no less.
Again I'll ask this question: do you think Joe Dumars should be fired, and what current GM would you rather have?
I ask becasue I want to know just how deep this stupidity goes.
I love how we re-signed Sheed,Rip AND Tayshaun during this run, but god forbid ONE of our players runs smewhere else for way more than he was worth, now all of a sudden its like we never re-signed anybody and we're the worst run organization of all time.
Flip Murray at that price is a bargain. Is he the Answer? Of course not.
As currently constructed we do have a decent 10-man rotation:
Nazr/Sheed
Sheed/Dice/Maxiell
Prince/Delfino
Rip/Flip/Delfino
Billups/Hunter
Throw in Davis at C and things don't look so bad.
At the very least it should be interesting to see who plays behind Tay and who gets the majority of minutes behind Billups.
And, Joe has lined up a few assets if he needs to make a trade.
Delfino, Dice, Acker, Amir, Blalock and Flip all have very short contracts and we have 2 first round picks in the 2007 Draft. Throw in Davis and his $3.5mil expiring deal and it is possible for us to make a serious trade.
I doubt it happens, but Joe does have that option.
Obviously I would have approached the off-season differently but looking at our team I can't honestly say my way would give us a much better roster.
If you take out Davis and Flip, but add Banks are we better?
Significantly better?
Who knows?
(and yes, it was possible to add Nazr, Banks and bring back Hunter)
And Kstat: I wouldn't be asking how deep this stupidity goes.
Some of your statements go deep, too.
IMO the majority (including me at times) have over-reacted this off-season. That was bound to happen after Ben's exit but now it's time to settle down a bit and take a long look at this squad.
It isn't that bad. It isn't a contender either IMO.
But we'll certainly beat the shit out of a lot of teams next season and in 2007 we have 2 first rounders.
Just draft well and retain Chauncey and we're good to go again.
Those 2 first round picks are everything to the future of this franchise. That Orlando gets us a pick between 6~10 and that Joe makes at least one great decision between the two of them.
As trade assets, I'm not sure they will get much done.
I'm thinking the Magic's pick is between 8-14 but I get the point. We do need Joe to make some solid picks and really get us a foundation for the future.
And while I'm not sure what we could do with 2 2007 firsts via trades at least we have those assets to move if needed.
Some teams would love an addition 2007 pick (like Atlanta)
Counting on Joe's ability to draft is suicide.
Do we have any other options now?
No exceptions to use in free agency.
Plus, we only have Davis + unproven youth + picks to trade
Things aren't looking good
No they aren't thanks to Davidson. Had he not been a cheap ass and given away Corliss and Darko we'd have $16 million in epxiring contracts to use as trade bait. We got Sheed for $16 million in expiring contract. Instead we're left with shit. But at least Davidson's profit margins are up and Gaystats happy.
Yeah, the wrath of PMS really nailed it.
The reason we're no longer contenders is because we let Corliss Williamson go. That's gotta be it.
I must have missed the meeting where it was decided that all expiring contracts were guarenteed to land a quality player.
its guaranteed that if you have no assetts to trade, you wont land a quality player. right now we can scrounge up ~6 million to trade (unless you want to move the 'big 6'. not too much to choose from in the 6 million range.
My point is it's silly to expect Dumars to hold on to Corliss when he wasn't anywhere worth his contract, in the hope that TWO years down the road his expiring salary might be useful.
If that were the case, nobody would ever try to get rid of an overpaid player.
Trading Corliss for Coleman and then waiving Coleman got us what?
NOTHING! For the former 6th Man of the Year!
WTF? How can you justify that Kstat?
You surely aren't this fucking stupid, are you?