Pistons sign Flip Murray (old thread)

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Originally Posted by Kstat

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Originally Posted by FP22

We should have brought Delk back instead of Lindsey if we were going this route. Now our bench is filled with a bunch of guys who can't shoot for shit. You need a couple guys who can shoot to open up the driving lanes.

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Please tell me you didn't just imply that this team needs MORE jump-shooters...LMAO

I wish Gutz was here, for once.

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The problem is it's all lop-sided, and Flip is too stubborn with rotations. We have a bunch of shoot-only guys in the starting lineup, and a bunch of guys that can't shoot coming off the bench. And since Flip likely won't shuffle the lineups up, the bench will be playing a lot of their time together. Leaving units with Lindsey and Murray (and Delfino?) on the floor at once. It doesn't work. Especially considering Lindsey's playmaking abilities.

If he runs lineups like last year (Lindsey, Rip, _______ (Flip or Delfino)), we'll have the same problem. Lindsey and murray's defenders will sag and kill the "Rip-curl", which is basically our only play when Chauncey isn't in the game. Either that or some ugly lookin iso.

I just think it's a bad fit. If we were going to get Murray (who can't shoot), we should have signed Delk instead, so he can at least shoot the ball and stretch the D.

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Originally Posted by Kstat

I agree, this is better than anything we could have hoped for, for the BAE.

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Yeah, I laughed when I heard we were looking at him, figured there was no way. CBS ranks him as the 2nd best sg FA this year.

I'm happy with the signing. The Crylos fanboys will hate this signing once the season starts.

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Originally Posted by FP22

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Originally Posted by Kstat

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Originally Posted by FP22

We should have brought Delk back instead of Lindsey if we were going this route. Now our bench is filled with a bunch of guys who can't shoot for shit. You need a couple guys who can shoot to open up the driving lanes.

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Please tell me you didn't just imply that this team needs MORE jump-shooters...LMAO

I wish Gutz was here, for once.

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The problem is it's all lop-sided, and Flip is too stubborn with rotations. We have a bunch of shoot-only guys in the starting lineup, and a bunch of guys that can't shoot coming off the bench. And since Flip likely won't shuffle the lineups up, the bench will be playing a lot of their time together. Leaving units with Lindsey and Murray (and Delfino?) on the floor at once. It doesn't work. Especially considering Lindsey's playmaking abilities.

If he runs lineups like last year (Lindsey, Rip, _______ (Flip or Delfino)), we'll have the same problem. Lindsey and murray's defenders will sag and kill the "Rip-curl", which is basically our only play when Chauncey isn't in the game. Either that or some ugly lookin iso.

I just think it's a bad fit. If we were going to get Murray, we should have signed Delk instead, so he can at least shoot the ball and stretch the D.

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all that is contingent on Flip playing with the same mindset/goals as last season: win home court advantage at all costs. the entire management, the players, and the media were all saying that if the Pistons played Game 7 at the Palace, we might have repeated. Flip wasn't in any position to sacrifice wins.

this coming season, he's on record as saying that he might sacrifice wins to get the bench developed. he never said anything like that last season.

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The problem is it's all lop-sided, and Flip is too stubborn with rotations.

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It's called "mixing it up."

Flip said he was going to use the bench a lot more next year. He knows the team better than he did a year ago.

TO say FLip's too stubborn to change after one season is just silly.

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Originally Posted by Matt

all that is contingent on Flip playing with the same mindset/goals as last season: win home court advantage at all costs.

this coming season, he's on record as saying that he might sacrifice wins to get the bench developed. he never said anything like that last season.

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If I've learned 1 thing over the last year it's that you can never believe a single word that comes out of that guys' mouth. I don't even know if he's a good enough coach to figure it out. He'll play the top-4 like he usually does and just give Dice some more minutes. His excuse will be "with Ben gone, the starters as far as needed to step up... as far as" blah blah blah.

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Originally Posted by Kstat

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Originally Posted by Matt

t i (along w/ b-diddy and others) think that Delfino's impact in made when he's allowed to get into a rhythm and study what's happening on the floor. that's when he'll get an important steal, the pass that leads to an assist, or make a solid defensive play to prevent a score. i'd really like to see Flip and Delfino compliment each others' games.

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Actually, no.

According to b-diddy, you can't talk about what kind of player delfino is, because he has yet to play 30 MPG.

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well, me and matt agree that delfino is a rhythm player, and cant be judged when he gets choppy minutes.

he might not agree with me that we dont really know what kind of a player deflino is (maybe he does). 95% of people had decided one way or another on darko's talent when they hadnt seen shit from him, too. i wasnt one of them. just like i wouldnt try to say what kind of a player delfino is based on such limited playing time. ive seen him drive, pass, and yes, jack up some broken jumpers from the outside...but what if he gets in rhythm and the jumper looks as good as the form? i suspect he might start jacking. but i guess just cuz this has never happened means it never will.

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Originally Posted by Kstat

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The problem is it's all lop-sided, and Flip is too stubborn with rotations.

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It's called "mixing it up."

Flip said he was going to use the bench a lot more next year. He knows the team better than he did a year ago.

TO say FLip's too stubborn to change after one season is just silly.

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So how is he gonna do it? You think he's gonna pull Rip or Tayshaun mid-way through the first? haha... Yea right. They'll be in there till a few minutes into the 2nd like normal. Flip talked and talked last year, but never changed a damn thing. Untill I see it with my own eyes, we've been lied to too many times to believe it.

And yea, I probably wouldn't have a problem with Murray if we didn't have Saunders at the helm. I don't think he's capable of making it work. Period.

well the thing is, we have the flexibility to sub flip in and out if he starts 'just jacking up horrible shots' or whatever.

we're not relying on this guy to be a huge contributor for us. he has a reduced role here and when he's cold or not playing well, we have plenty of other options.

we're not counting on him as much as his past teams have.

and again, i think if we're smart we can focus on utilising his strengths, not his weaknesses. if we use him right, he can be good for us. he's still young and is surely hungry to prove himself on a good team and help us where we need it most- slashing to the hoop.

nothing bad can come from this IMO, since i was not counting on us to sign anybody of significance with the measley BAE we had left. so to get flip is a good situation IMO.

He isn't the most well-rounded player, yeah. But don't we have delfino for that?

Give Flip 15-18 minutes, and he'll put 11-13 points on the board for you. We need that, and he can give us that.

We have Lindsey and Delfino to defend the perimeter already, and we have Delfino to defend the other team's best perimeter player.

With Flip and Dice I think we finally have a legit 1-2 scoring punch off the bench now.

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Originally Posted by Kstat

He isn't the most well-rounded player, yeah. But don't we have delfino for that?

Give Flip 15-18 minutes, and he'll put 11-13 points on the board for you. We need that, and he can give us that.

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No he won't. And if he does, he took 15 shots to get there.

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We have Lindsey and Delfino to defend the perimeter already, and we have Delfino to defend the other team's best perimeter player.

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We have a coach that doesn't recognize matchups, and doesn't seem to care about defense. Did you watch him with Mo last year? It's gonna be the same thing. Flip Murray is the new Mo Evans.

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Originally Posted by Kstat

Don't look at Murray's stats in Cleveland. He was horribly-misused.

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Flip's best recent stats came in Cleveland.

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Originally Posted by Kstat

Flip's a finisher, Delfino's a set-up man.

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Originally Posted by Kstat

Murray isn't a chucker. He takes most of his shots inside 10 feet.

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Well Flip's got an absolutely abysmal FG% so he is not a finisher since (according to you) all of his shots come inside 10 feet. The guy is a career 41% shooter. He makes Lindsey Hunter look like Kelly Tripucka on offense.

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Originally Posted by Kstat

Flip isn't a good outside shooter. He's a slasher and mid-range shooter.

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Flip isn't a good shooter, finisher, defender, passer or ball handler. He does nothing well. That is why he is a Bi-Annual contract player. He's Mo Evans without the (miniscule) upside.

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Originally Posted by Kstat

And oh yeah, his only playoff series was one in which (again) he was misused.

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Is the art of research dead? He played in the '05 playoffs for Seattle. You know, that 52-30 team. He hasn't been misused, he just plain sucks eggs man. Stop pouring perfume on a pig for the love of nevitt.

Yes, Flip Murray sucks.

LMAO

If we signed John Stockton and Wilt Chamberlain you'd be complaining like a little girl that Wilt isn't a winner and Stockton can't score.

Seriously, for 1.7 million, there has to be some serious anti-Piston bitterness for anyone to hate this that much.

Fix your face.

But then again, it's no point in aruging with somebody that will hate the on any move we make, no matter what it is.

For fuck's sake, we signed him for 1.7 million, which is a frekain bargain. Even if you don't like him ,you still can't tell me that this was a horrible move.

Would it kill some of you to not hate the team this summer for two seconds?

We get rid of MoEvans and (likely) Delk and end up with Flip?

We're dipping toward 40-something win territory in a hurry...

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Originally Posted by Kstat

Yes, Flip Murray sucks.

LMAO

If we signed John Stockton and Wilt Chamberlain you'd be complaining like a little girl that Wilt isn't a winner and Stockton can't score.

Fix your face.

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When I point out that everything you are posting is either contradictory or just plain inaccurate, this is your best? LMAO and weak insults?

Flip is a crap player. No one wanted him. Cleveland needs a backup SG and they didn't even look at him twice for peanuts. They could have signed him as an early bird if I am right about his contract status. They wouldn't even have to waste an exception on him.

When the teams below you pass on a player, that's a clue. I would suggest you break out a metal detector, a compass and a divining rod so you can locate a few more clues.

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Originally Posted by Uncle Mxy

We're dipping toward 40-something win territory in a hurry...

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Possibly 30 wins.

Shit, we may not even win 10 games with only three all-stars.

Maybe if we're lucky we can avoid not having the worst record of all time.

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Originally Posted by themicrowave

Flip is a crap player. No one wanted him. Cleveland needs a backup SG and they didn't even look at him twice for peanuts. They could have signed him as an early bird if I am right about his contract status. They wouldn't even have to waste an exception on him.

When the teams below you pass on a player, that's a clue. I would suggest you break out a metal detector, a compass and a divining rod so you can locate a few more clues.

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Um, is the art of research dead? Did you not realize they already had a backup SG?

THEY DRAFTED SHANNON BROWN.

hey, at 1.7 im fine with this move.

but flip has some serious flaws with his game. he's not a shooter, or a finisher (as you call him), he's a scorer. and not an all that great of one, either. hes incredibly streaky. im not sure he has a very high bball iq.

the price is right, though. and he can put points up, which our bench desperately needs. and maybe he'll mature and this move will look like a steal.

but beyond that, this move doesnt make us suddenly a great team again (were you serious when you said this gets us back to the championship? im suddenly thinking you were).

He makes this team a little better. That's all I said.

God forbid anybody could be happy for 2 seconds that we just filled a need.

We needed a player besides Dice that can consistently put points on the board.

Murray can consistently put points on the board off the bench, and he does it in the lane where he can draw fouls, which is another problem we've had offensively.

I don't really care about his defense or assists or whatever. We already have reserves who can fill those roles.

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Originally Posted by Kstat

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Originally Posted by themicrowave

Flip is a crap player. No one wanted him. Cleveland needs a backup SG and they didn't even look at him twice for peanuts. They could have signed him as an early bird if I am right about his contract status. They wouldn't even have to waste an exception on him.

When the teams below you pass on a player, that's a clue. I would suggest you break out a metal detector, a compass and a divining rod so you can locate a few more clues.

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Um, is the art of research dead? Did you not realize they already had a backup SG?

THEY DRAFTED SHANNON BROWN.

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they actually just signed senior citizen david wesley because they didnt want flip back.

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Originally Posted by Kstat

Would it kill some of you to not hate the team this summer for two seconds?

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I love the kids who are allowed to suck for less than $1 million a year at Bad Boy Summer Camp.

I don't feel the need to jock ride a 41st pick whose best season came chucking for a 37-45 team.

Let me ask you, with all of your keen insight, do you feel that Joe has made the necessary moves to establish an elite 8, and improve this team for a rematch with the Heat? Has this been a successful offseason for the Pistons? Did they achieve their goals?

Wesley can play the 1 as well. He's a combo guard.

That means the chance of Banks going to Cle is now that much more unlikely...

Come on Joe, get Banks!!

how?

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Originally Posted by Cross

Wesley can play the 1 as well. He's a combo guard.

That means the chance of Banks going to Cle is now that much more unlikely...

Come on Joe, get Banks!!

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We can only get Banks for a minimum contract. All of our exception money has been spent.

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Originally Posted by b-diddy

they actually just signed senior citizen david wesley because they didnt want flip back.

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They signed him to play PG, not SG.

Keep swinging though, eventually you're bound to hit something by accident.

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Originally Posted by Kstat

They signed him to play PG, not SG.

Keep swinging though, eventually you're bound to hit something by accident.

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Wesley was the starting SG next to Baron Davis in Charlotte. They have 2 PGs in Eric Snow and Damon Jones.

I will laugh my ass off if Banks ends up settling for half the MLE. Not to mention the whole Butler thing. It could end up where we could have had both of them for the MLE and still had the BAE left over. THEN I could deal with signing Flip Murray. I just don't see the bench working out as is. The pieces don't fit.

This sucks, and I'm starting to think it was a case of beginners luck with Joe.

Snow, Jones, and Wesley......maybe Flip Murray was just too young for them, lol.

We could trade DD and Delfino and the Det pick, but I find it doubtful because they have enough guards...However, they do need a center.

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Originally Posted by themicrowave

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Let me ask you, with all of your keen insight, do you feel that Joe has made the necessary moves to establish an elite 8, and improve this team for a rematch with the Heat? Has this been a successful offseason for the Pistons? Did they achieve their goals?

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I thought we were already an elite 8 team, but then again I'm not standing on the ledge like the rest of you.

And If you think we could have done any more with the BAE, feel free to show us.

Murray isn't the final piece, but he makes this team a little better than it was without him.

There's nothing keeping Joe from going out and trying to make trades to improve this team further. Free agency was NEVER going to be our path to ring #4.

I'm satisfied with Mohammed and Flip, considering what we had to spend.

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Originally Posted by FP22

I will laugh my ass off if Banks ends up settling for half the MLE. We could have had Banks and Butler.

This sucks, and I'm starting to think it was a case of beginners luck with Joe.

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Isn't Banks a restricted FA? I'm sure if someone signs him to an offer sheet at half the MLE the Wolves will match.

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Originally Posted by themicrowave

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Originally Posted by Kstat

They signed him to play PG, not SG.

Keep swinging though, eventually you're bound to hit something by accident.

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Wesley was the starting SG next to Baron Davis in Charlotte. They have 2 PGs in Eric Snow and Damon Jones.

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And guess what?

They have a lot more confidence in shannon brown at the 2 than they do Damon Jones at the 1.

In case you noticed, Damon doesnt play anymore.

kstat, i think microwave was talking about a top 8 rotation, not being an elite 8 team.

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Originally Posted by FP22

This sucks, and I'm starting to think it was a case of beginners luck with Joe.

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We should fire Dumars and bring in someone else. Dumars only got lucky, he sucks.

Seriously, is there any member of the Pistons you DONT hate? I'm not even being sarcastic.

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Originally Posted by Matt

kstat, i think microwave was talking about a top 8 rotation, not being an elite 8 team.

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I'd put our top 9 up against most any other team's top 9.

Despite what people want to believe, we have a very good team still. One quality trade and we're back up there with Miami.

I don't even think we'd need a major upgrade, just a slight upgrade at one position.

i'm trying to think of a player equivalent of Flip Murray and all i could think of was a poor man's Ben Gordon? that's who i think of whenever people say, "he's not a shooter....he's a scorer, blah, blah".

one silver lining stat: at 3.7 FT attempts per game, Flip Murray would have been a hair behind Rip, at #3 on the Pistons:

Chauncey: 6.4 FTA
Hamilton: 3.8 FTA
Murray: 3.7 FTA
Ben Wallace: 3.6 FTA *shudder*

unfortunately, that was with 36.7 minutes a game (would have been #1 on the Pistons last season). at least he gets to the line....take it fwiw.

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Originally Posted by Cross

We could trade DD and Delfino and the Det pick, but I find it doubtful because they have enough guards...However, they do need a center.

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you are correct. perhaps im behind the 8 ball on this one, but dd and delfino's contract add up to ~4.4. the mle is 5.25 (?) which is within the requried 25% (?) percent. damn, i used to know the ins and outs of the cba. anyway, i think it works. but im not sure minny does this without a pick, and im not sure we can sacrifice davis. he will probably have a big role on this team next year. plus that 5 mill on the books next year would royally fuck us when we tried to sign billups.

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Originally Posted by the wrath of diddy

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Originally Posted by FP22

I will laugh my ass off if Banks ends up settling for half the MLE. We could have had Banks and Butler.

This sucks, and I'm starting to think it was a case of beginners luck with Joe.

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Isn't Banks a restricted FA? I'm sure if someone signs him to an offer sheet at half the MLE the Wolves will match.

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Didn't they just get Mike James? Along with T-Hud, Jaric, and their respective contracts. I don't think they have more money to throw around at PGs just because they have their rights.

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Originally Posted by Matt

kstat, i think microwave was talking about a top 8 rotation, not being an elite 8 team.

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Shoot! Matt is here...

*mumbles* better behave myself *mumbles*

@ KStat ~ Damon Jones is going to make $3.8 million dollars this year, with another 2 years on his contract. They did not sign David Wesley to take his job. Damon is in fact a spot up shooter, capable of feeding the post and a pal of Lebron's.

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Originally Posted by Kstat

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Originally Posted by FP22

This sucks, and I'm starting to think it was a case of beginners luck with Joe.

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We should fire Dumars and bring in someone else. Dumars only got lucky, he sucks.

Seriously, is there any member of the Pistons you DONT hate? I'm not even being sarcastic.

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Sorry if being a "fan" means you aren't allowed to disagree with personnel moves. Guess I'm not then. darn...