And then we'll get the Rob Parker thinkpiece on why it NEEDS to happen.
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And then we'll get the Rob Parker thinkpiece on why it NEEDS to happen.
"It's time to right the wrong...."Quote:
Originally Posted by Glan
LOL That exact phrase will be in the article. Agreed.
I vote for "Bring Ben Home.'
A friend just texted me to say he was ridiculously excited that we might get Ben Wallace back. This does not excite me unless we trade Kwame and Ben is the backup to a true starting C.
Why Z? Kwame and Ben are so different!
Hey now, they'd be filling the same role, Fool. I thought that, of all people, you would understand this.
Neither one is a starting caliber center (but both find backups for a year).
I can live with both if it gets us Bosh or Amare.
I'd prefer to make a trade now for a long term center.
Neither are getting us Bosh or Amare because we won't have any cap space next year. To get one of those guys, we'd have to make some big moves. I'd like to see Ben come back for a season if he was going to retire after. Sentimental value, Ben retiring in a Pistons uniform. It would be a nice way to finish his career. He was rumored to be debating retirement this offseason.
Not huge moves. As I said if you deal Max, let Kwame walk, don't spend any money this year...you'd have 15+ mil.
And you still have the RIP trade options too that can create more space.
It's really not unrealistic to have that space. Whether they want to sign here or not I don't know.
according to ASB, the Pistons will contact Ben about coming back to Detroit.
I'm also with Fool on this one. I think Ben is done. He's not as quick as he used to be and he's not as versatile as he used to be. Remember how much complaining Ben did on the 2005-2006 team? Can you imagine how much complaining he's going to do this year when we have one of the younger teams in the league? Ben doesn't want to rebuild in perhaps his final season.
Ben is one of my all-time favorite Pistons, in spite the way he left. I have great memories of him as the face of the franchise. But let's keep him as a memory.
Ben isn't done. He isn't the DPOY anymore, but he's fully capable of 10 boards and 2 blocks per game in starter's minutes.
And Ben has long since been dealt a slice of humble pie. He's seen the other side of the fence and it isn't as green as he thought it would be. He was wrong to bitch before and I'd say he knows it now.
I think he just wants to go to a place where he can be ben again, and fans won't constantly get on him for not scoring points or making FTs.
Kstat - I love your basketball IQ, but I'm going to disagree with you on that wholeheartedly. And if he's out there long enough to grab 10 boards, the offense that he contributes won't be worth it. He was okay to have out there in the good ol' days when his defense was so dominant it didn't hurt us. And his legs were good enough that he was good for a couple alley-oops per game. But now his "average to good" defense isn't worth his "awful to titanic" offense.
I'd say the opposite is true- we have so many weapons at the 1-4 spots, that his lack of offense is going to hurt us less.
All this team is missing is a guy that can rebound and defend the basket a little. They don't necessarily need another offensive player.
I think you could pencil him in for 30 minutes a game, and he'd stabilize the defense enough for all the firepower to matter.
30 MPG? I'm only interested in him for 20 MPG a night.
I'd really only be interested if he plays 30.
Ben is a starter. He isn't suited for the bench.
Brace yourselves...McCocksy is actually saying it is POSSIBLE....
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090...buyout-by-Suns
Joe D/ hasn't commented on shit lately. He's usually pretty open about dropping names of potential targets.Quote:
Could Ben Wallace return to Pistons after buyout by Suns?
Chris McCosky / The Detroit News
Auburn Hills -- Add another name -- a familiar name -- to the list of candidates to bolster the Pistons' thin frontcourt.
Former Piston Ben Wallace accepted a $10 million buyout from the Phoenix Suns on Tuesday. If he clears waivers, he will be an unrestricted free agent.
Wallace indicated at the end of last season that he would consider retirement because of his age (35) and lingering injuries. But, according to sources, Wallace is considering trying to play at least one more season and has reached out to the Pistons.
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He still owns a home in Oakland County.
The Pistons have $3.5 million still available under the salary cap. In taking the buyout, Wallace left $4 million still on the table in Phoenix. (The final year of his contract was worth $14 million.)
Most likely, the Pistons would offer Wallace the veteran's minimum ($1.3 million, which does not count against the cap), and still have the $3.5 million to spend on a younger big man.
Pistons president Joe Dumars, who is considering several options, would not comment on the possibility of bringing Wallace back.
IMO, he's trying to work a major trade.
I don't see how you're getting 15+ million for next year, Chris. If you deal Max for an expiring, that clears up $5 million. If you let Kwame walk, that clears up $4 million. Bynum will also be expiring at $800k. We have ~$3.6 million in cap space. That adds up to $13.4 million. Even if the cap doesn't decrease, we'll have Rip, Gordon, Villanueva, Prince and Stuckey all needing a raise, which adds up to around $4 million. That leaves us with $9.4 million to sign a starting C, a backup C, a backup PF, and a backup PG.
And we still haven't taken into account our rookie contracts and the raises that they'll bring next offseason. That will eat up a few more million.
As for Wallace, he played 56 games last year and started 53 with 23.5mpg. He put up 6.5 boards and 1.3 blocks, so if he could keep up that pace for 30mpg he'd be at 8.3 boards and 1.6 blocks. Not quite 10 and 2, K. Sorry. He also averaged under 3ppg, shot 44% which is pretty terrible for a guy in the post, and shot an abysmal 42% on his FTs. All of these numbers have been slowly decreasing since his first season with the Bulls.
Look at how he wore out as the season went on!
November
43%FG, 50%FT, 7.3REB, 1.6BPG, 2.9PPG on 24MPG
February
27%FG, 37%FT, 6.0REB, 0.7BPG, 1.7PPG on 23MPG
He could be decent off the bench in a defensive role, getting 20-25mpg at most. If you bring him in as your starter and try to give him 30mpg, he's going to wear out and you'll be left with nothing at C.
RIP+Tay+Stuckey = $23,798,760
+ Gordon + Charlie = $41 mil.
Add in the rookies from this year and Bynum and you're looking at 45-46 mil.
We don't know what the cap would be, but that is 13-14 mil probably in space. That's without moving RIP, which I'm sure we could do.
I'm also betting that some of the SF's would be let go or traded (they won't all stick here).
Rip + Tay + Stuckey is going to be more than $23million.
2010:
Rip - $12,650,000
Tay - $11,147,760
Stuckey - $2,767,126
That's $26,564,886.
Gordon ~11
Villanueva ~6.5
That puts us at ~$44mil. If we use your numbers for the rookies and Bynum, we're at $48-49 million. If the cap stays the same ($57.7mil), that gives us $8-9 million to play with. Again, we'd need that money for a backup PF, a starting C, and a backup C.
Many reports say the cap may go down again next year, which would give us even less.
I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm just trying to say we aren't going to have as much money as you're saying. Even if we went into next offseason with $12m, that's not going to get us a guy like Bosh. Our only shot would be if we moved Rip for an expiring contract this offseason and gave ourselves $20mil next year.
Edit - We can probably wait to find out exactly what Gordon and CVs contracts look like to do the math on this.
I crunched some of these numbers a while back. I think Ben G is making a little more than I thought at the time I crunched these. I'll recalculate tomorrow, accounting for the Afflalo trade and adjusted contract figures. Is the consensus that Charlie V is 5 years/$35 million and Ben G is 5 years/$58 million?
While the cap going down would certainly hurt us, it also lowers the figure for the max contract. The starting point for a max contract is 30% of the cap. I'm including the min expected range, max expected range, and the average of those two.
Salary Cap, Max Conract
50,400,000 / 15,120,000
52,000,000 / 15,600,000
53,600,000 / 16,080,000
Assuming that the 2nd round rookies sign the same contract Sharpe signed, and Daye (as 15 overall pick) signs the same contract as Stuckey, this is how we look the next two years as currently constructed. I did Charlie V at 5 years/$37,700,000 with maximum 8% annual raises. Starting him at $6,500,000. I did Ben at 5 years/$51,000,000 with maximum 8% annual raises. Starting him at $9,000,000.
2009-10 , 2010-11
Charlie V 6,500,000 / 7020000
Ben Gordon 9,000,000 / 9720000
Rip Hamilton $11,625,000 / $11,333,333
Prince $10,324,380 / $11,148,760
Kwame Brown $4,000,000
Oberto $1,800,000
Jason Maxiell $5,000,000 / $5,000,000
Stuckey $1,805,040 / $2,767,126
Arron Afflalo $1,086,240 / $1,959,577
Will Bynum $825,497
Walter Sharpe $736,420
Washington $442,114 / $736,420
Jonas Jerebko $442,114 / $736,420
Summers $442,114 / $736,420
Austin Daye $1,687,320 / $1,805,040
TOTAL $52,702,577 / $48,948,796
Cap Figure Cap Space
50,400,000 1,451,204
52,000,000 3,051,204
53,600,000 4,651,204
well, McCosky is saying that ben is reaching out to the Pistons, ASB is saying the Pistons will reach out to ben, and Vince ellis is saying the Pistons have no interest at all in Ben.
I love this town. 3 beat writers with 3 different stories. I swear they all hate each other. Every story contradicts the guy before.
Ben not interested in Pistons in 5..4..3..
Vince Ellis just changed his story from "Pistons not interested in Ben Wallace," to "Pistons not actively looking at Ben Wallace."
Every backpeddle starts with a single step...
he ain't even a quarter of the player he used to be. but what the hell- i guess bringing him at the veteran's minimum to at least fill a roster spot, if nothing else, couldn't hurt at this point.
he's worth about 10 minutes a night at most. but that would give us perhaps the worst shooting big men in the league. ah, what the hell- let's have fun with it!
i'll take 10 rebounds and 2 blocks. It's better than anyone else available.
count me in on taking wallace over the crap available out there.
2 issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by rugbypike#11
You have Rip listed at 11,333,333. His salary would be increasing, assuming its at the 8% raise that would make it $12,555,000
You said Gordon was estimated at 5yrs/$58m, but when you did his cap figure you used $51m. So he would be at $9.5m if it was $55m total and $10m if it was $58m total?
Also, I've heard more of Gordon at $55 (9.5 first season, 10.26 2nd) and Villanueva at $40 (~6.8 first season, 7.344 2nd)
Without Afflalo, that gives us $52,352,766 in payroll next offseason using 55 and 40.
I'll take him, but he's not giving us 10 and 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
i disagree. hes still very capable if you start him at center.
Welcome rugbypike, great first post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zekyl
In other words, I was noting that the initial calculation was 5 years/51 million. I was trying to figure out if there was a consensus total for Gordon's contract. I've heard anything from 5 years/$50+ million to 5 years/$58 million.Quote:
Originally Posted by rugbypike#11
Rip's extension kicks in next year. He doesn't necessarily get a raise from his 2009-10 cap figure. His extension was reportedly 3 years/$34 million. I don't think we know exactly how the contract is structured (raises, decreases, flat).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zekyl
ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Glan
Ben Wallace: From 'Fear The Fro' to 'Fro For Free' in Five Years
We're talking about signing Ben Wallace?
To start/help at C?
WTF?
When the season began we knew that once our season was over we were gonna need big men. All season long everyone was saying "That's cool!" cause we had almost $18 million in cap space plus 4 draft picks and had guys that were valuable assets (Kwame/Amir = expiring and Rip/Tay) to dangle in trade talks.
Why on Earth does Ben Wallace even rate a mention?
Is it because Joe Dumars passed on Blair during the Draft?
Is it because Joe Dumars opted to give Ben Gordon more than $9 mil of our cap space?
Is it because Joe Dumars did not seriously consider dangling Rip and Tay in trade talks?
What a total fucking mess this off-season has become.
At least we got Powder - who will earn every cent of his salary next season as he tries to hold together a PF/C rotation with Kwame, Maxiell and Ben!
On the bright side at least Michael Curry got fired!
DuJuan Blair isn't a center.
What centers were even available in FA?
Gortat? Pachulia?
Reality...
You do realize its ok for them to sign a placeholder for a year and wait until next year(or god forbid, 2011), when there will be quality centers available?
Of course, each of these tangents comes at the expense of a player Joe has no even mentioned by name. All these guys are ASSUMPTIONS made by beat writers. Joe hasn't told anybody what he's doing, which begs the question, how the fuck do you think you know?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glan
I do wonder if this is a fluke or more former worldcrossing members are going to make their way over...I took a look around that place a while ago....there really isnt much room for what Rugby just posted. People seem more interested in attacking each other than talking hoops.
To Whom It May Concern,
My deepest apologies to you, fine sir.
I meant no disrespect to you, Joe Dumars or the Detroit Pistons organisation. Please relay my apologies to your boss...
Unless you are reading this from under his desk where his cock is planted firmly inside your mouth.
Who the fuck died and made you the defender of all things Joe?
Dude passed on a PF that can fucking play on Draft Day. Considering our stellar crop of bigs one might assume Joe would have been looking for a cheap big that could actually contribute...
Oh, hang on - he'd rather dump Afflalo for more cap space so we can sign a cheap big that can contribute.
Or maybe, just maybe we shouldn't have overpaid for Gordon?
Or maybe we should be ringing GM's in an effort to trade Prince and/or Rip?
I don't give a flying fuck what free agent C's were available on July 1st. With the amount of cap space we had you can trade for dudes.
But maybe I shouldn't be typing all this. I'm posting my thoughts regarding assumptions posted by some other dude and he got it from some website that really isn't as connected to Joe as Kstat is and Kstat said it's all pointless cause Joe hasn't mentioned anyone by name and when it's all said and done it's just speculation and maybe just maybe you should shut the fuck up!
Seriously?
You claim no one wants to talk hoops no more and they just wanna attack people and it's because you defend every fucking thing Joe has done.
Passed on Blair? Knees are shot - we got 3 gun small forwards.
Overpaid Gordon? Had to - he wouldn't have signed.
Didn't make a big trade? Why would he? We're in Phase 2 of rebuilding.
Didn't hire Tommy Boy? I liked them both, I swear.
Your opinion is not the only opinion that matters. Other people joined here to type their shit too. Your continued shilling of the Pistons is rather fucking pointless.
We are already Piston fans, otherwise we wouldn't be posting here. I seriously doubt anyone is gonna give up cheering for the team simply because in their opinion Joe fucks up a few moves.
And since I find your shilling to be pointless it's my duty as a fellow poster and fan to try and get you to stop. We all in this together and all that shit.
my problem, as always, is with people who bitch without having any real solutions of their own.
my secondary problem is with people who bitch when they don't even know if Joe's done making moves or not
I'm a devil's advocate first and foremost, but I also have patience. You might want to try it out sometime, it's rather fun.
ok, feel free to continue on your pointless rant.