rip would be a horrible fit in orlando, both with their style of play and their current roster.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG BEN'S FRO
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rip would be a horrible fit in orlando, both with their style of play and their current roster.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG BEN'S FRO
charlie V is only making a bit more than the MLE per year. look at all the garbage players around the league that are being paid $6 mil per year. to get him for $7mil is a lot of cash, but that's not ridiculous in today's market. it's a good deal IMO.
i think some of you are looking at the money and thinking what you would want for that much money....but the reality is that is what players today are being paid.
shit if prince and rip are worth over $9 mil a year, the deals we just signed with these kids are great IMO. cheap? nope. but we did what we had to, to add really good young talent that will help us for a long time moving forward.
Gordon is a chucker and not as clutch as advertised. If we are losing Rip in the process and making Gordon a starter, bad signing imho.
you can't say that until you see what rip might bring back.
You're pulling stats on the wrong guy. He's only Kstat by name, overall his likes and dislikes rule over stats. He likes Gordon more than Rip, so Grdon is more clutch now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Mxy
gordon is a much better go-to guy than rip. who would you rather handling the ball with the clock ticking down late in a game, rip or gordon? if you say rip, i'm sorry but you're just being a homer.
i love rip and he's done an incredible amount in detroit. but he can't handle the ball to save his life and he can't create his own shot for nothin'. this is a new nba and rip isn't old but he's no spring chicken either.
gordon's game is much more suited to what this team needs moving forward than rip's.
I wasn't the one who brought up his "clutch" play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfredo Ledezma
Kstat, apologies -- wasn't clear to me who you were talking about.
On Charlie V, we seem to agree.
You're overestimatinghis trade value while downing him in comparison to Gordon? That's a unrealistic line to walk. We are not getting an elite Big, so I can say that based on that because that's what I'd ant in exchange for swapping out the most efficient SG in the league for the league's streakiest chucker and possibly losing more on defense than we gain on offense imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Higherwarrior
I am looking at the money. With some many teams looking to unload players and with so few teams with available cap space, I was expecting us to get deals. I guess that I'm not thrilled with paying market price when we were position to benfit greatly?? Should I be happy with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Higherwarrior
sure i can. because his style of play not meshing with what we want to do moving forward does not directly affect his trade value. if he doesn't fit into what we want to do, it doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't be a great fit for someone else.
besides- a lot of things have to be considered in a trade. it's not just strictly talent for talent. anybody who knows anything knows that. he has a reasonable deal and there are teams who have contracts (AKA 'players') they would like to unload. brand or kaman are perfect examples of this.
based on talent, a 1 for 1 trade would be unfair. but if they're looking to dump a longterm deal then a guy like rip- even with his recent extension- becomes a more attractive player.
a player's trade value is a lot more about their contract and its value and not just strictly their talent.
sorry- my post was in response to black dynamite FYI
Weird that you of all people pull out the homer card. And Gordon may have goten hotter from 3 point line than Rip ever did, but more clutch? I don't remember him making more gamewinners than Rip. Someone care to chime in on this accusaion? Mxy you're the WTF Encyclopedia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Higherwarrior
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM
82 games says Rip is .3 pts more clutch.
I just like saying that in my head.
Oh shit, it's Joe Dumars????!! or are you guessing what we want to do with no HC in place? Either way good luck with that "have your cake and eat it too" theory. Apparently Ben Gordon is more clutch and better than Rip, but Rip is still elite enough to garner a high level big. Ben Gordon must be michael Jordan reincarnated, so we got a deal. Sarcsm aside i think your reasoning is flawed as fuck, but you are entitled to it, just don't tell me that it's a factual guideline for me to follow in my opinion of Swapping Rip out for Gordon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Higherwarrior
you're hilarious. first off- explain how i'm a homer. i'm as critical as anybody when i feel it is warranted.
i can't win with you- if i disagree with you then you run me down for daring to disagree. if i agree or like something done, you accuse me of being a homer. try reading the entirety of my posts and i don't switch up on my stance like homers do. and i critique moves as i see fit.
as for the other comment- you avoided my question but your answer gives me insight into your position. i guarantee you if you've got a coach drawing up the play, he's not putting the ball directly in rip's hands if he's got gordon on the floor too.
if you had any clue what you were talking about or what we were looking to do, you'd know we want BALL HANDLERS and guys who can create their own shots or shots for others. rip cannot do that. i don't care to know what the comparison of 'clutch shots' is between the 2. why not? because for one, it's an arbitrary stat when considering what i'm talking about. rip has hit lots of huge shots. gordon has hit a number himself.
but for one it's not just about 'buzzer beaters'. it's about big shots to keep your team in the game too. how do you measure that? and again- i've said we want and need a guy who can create off the dribble. we know gordon can do that and rip can't. that's a proven fact.
no player relied on screens to get their shots off than rip. that shows how much he relies on other players to score. that has proven to fail deep in the playoffs in today's game. you can't have a guy who relies SO heavily on others to get him shots. especially when you don't have chris paul as your PG.
late in games when teams sag on him, we can't get him the ball or when we do he has to get rid of it right away or else he's fucked. in playoff and late game situations if you want a guy who can get his own shot off, you want gordon. especially with the way the game is being played and officiated today.
i'm not saying the kid is our saviour. not close. i'm saying he gives us the style and abilities we need which rip sorely lacks.
I honestly don't know. I think Ben Gordon can be a great scorer and his youth gives him a chance to be even better. I also like the fact that he can play with the ball in his hands. I always get very afraid when I try to see Rip take a guy off the dribble. But I'm not sold on clutch, I don't know how much of an upgrade he is over Rip and I don't know if he's worth that money PLUS getting rid of Rip (unless getting rid of Rip really does bring us a quality big).
Great point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Higherwarrior
+1
lol....You tried to call me a homer, then you go ape shit when i call you out on your homer moments like your shit dont stink. Dude read my post before you get heavy handed with long wasteful paragraphs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Higherwarrior
And you'd be honest about yourself more so than anyone else. Higherwarrior you are. Bleh, nevermind kid, forget i intruded on your reality. Enjoy the internet and enjoy the signing if it's what you wanted. I don't have the cyber heart to stretch this any further.Quote:
you're hilarious. first off- explain how i'm a homer. i'm as critical as anybody when i feel it is warranted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Dynamite
you're such a fucking kid and your 'logic' is all over the place and nonsensical. i'm basing this on what dumars has said if you've paid attention. and i'm basing it on what i've been bitching about for 2 years or so. we lack ball handlers who can create their own shots. of COURSE i don't know the exact style of play or our offense we'll run, since we don't have a coach yet.
stop trying to misrepresent what i'm saying and trying to spin the debate in a direction i never took it. a fucking blind retard can see that in today's nba, IN ADDITION TO A VARIETY OF OTHER THINGS (so you don't put words in my mouth again!) you definitely need ball handlers who can create their own shots and take people off the dribble and either get to the line or finish.
rip can't do that. i'm not saying he's garbage. but i'm saying that players who have those abilities are benefiting greatly from the way the game is being played and officiated. if you can't see that, then you haven't been watching the game for very long.
once again- gordon is not our saviour and he's not the solution to all our problems. hardly. i'm just saying that he has those skills we really need. if you're upset with the signing, go right ahead and be upset. but there's no need to try and re-direct your attempted debate into territory it never went in the first place. you're arguing against a position i never took and trying to put words in my mouth and misrepresent my position.
why don't you post your own position and try making some logical sense FIRST and then try engaging in debate. right now you're just being an asshole for the sake of it. perhaps it's because i dared to question your stance on something.
i have no problem with someone debating with me and completely disagreeing with my position. no problem at all. k-stat, P, and many others do that on a regular with me. but you're not even doing that. you're just being an ass quite frankly. *shrugs shoulders*
I'd say they're comparably good, and I'd point to:Quote:
Originally Posted by Higherwarrior
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM
Both have their moments.
Rip can play both wing positions in a pinch and can defend at SG. Gordon is a volume 3P shooter who can't defend at either guard position. It's funny how Rip put up his career averages without an All-Star PG. Rip can actually get open. You can't just put a bigger man on him and turn him into streaky jumpshooter boy (though in Boston's case, their bigger guards kept on fouling him from beyond the 3P line). They're both somewhat turnover prone.Quote:
i love rip and he's done an incredible amount in detroit. but he can't handle the ball to save his life and he can't create his own shot for nothin'. this is a new nba and rip isn't old but he's no spring chicken either.
We better get someone good and big for Rip, or else we have another broken situation. I'm not opposed to getting rid of Rip, but Ben Gordon will be a step down come playoff time.
black D- you're throwing around another allegation with NOTHING to back it up. which again shows you're not here to do anything other than stir shit up.
you 'backed down' from what? an argument that you stirred up for god knows what reason. i just don't like people making false accusations or putting words in my mouth. and i think it's really lame to make statements and then do nothing to back them up. it's weak.
and i'm no kid trust me. but if labeling me as such makes you feel better about yourself, by all means go right ahead. it seems like you could use the boost for your self esteem anyway. the way you've acted out totally unprovoked demonstrates to me that you either didn't get enough titty as a baby or you just like making a spectacle of yourself. you light the fire and then run away when it blows back in your face and wonder what happened.
you don't have the cyber heart....? you simply can't handle a real debate of any sort. you pick a fight and then run away. should change your name to shit stirrer.
Could we keep them both? I've heard or read about maybe having Gordon be a 6th man a la Ginobili.
our new frontcourt of Kwame/Maxiell/Villanueva will scare the shit out of our opponents!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Mxy
best point brought up yet. no doubt- rip is a much, much better defender. we most certainly will have to put gordon on opponents PGs and try to hide his defensive shortcomings with guys like stuckey. it's a legit concern and it will be interesting to see the final roster and how we account for this weakness.
given the amount we just paid gordon and more importantly, the way rip handled the 3 guard rotation this past year....i don't see that working. even as a starter i don't think rip will be happy splitting such a role with gordon.Quote:
Originally Posted by detroitexport
we'll see though. i personally think we need to trade him but let's see what happens.
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/feature...tons.signings/
Quote:
"Ben agreed to come here knowing he would come off the bench," the source said. "That makes it completely different than Iverson coming here ... Gordon is choosing to come here and play the super sub role."
Quote:
Gordon's agent, Ray Brothers, said that 17 teams contacted him Wednesday about Gordon, but most were looking to sign Gordon to the mid-level exception or looking to do a sign-and-trade with Chicago. And after the last two summers of trying to negotiate deals with Chicago, Gordon was leery of yet more delay in trying to work something out down the road when Detroit came through so quickly with a tangible offer.
Nice statements about being a 6th man, but it could easily be all a part of the game. What's he supposed to say, "They promised me the starting job?"
Almost $60 million to be a backup. DA is off his game.
yeah it's POSSIBLE. but doubtful IMO. the thing is, we can't come out and annoint him the starter because then we definitely have a disgruntled hamilton and teams know even more that we need to dump/trade him.
so you can be sure we'll say the right things, while probably seeking to trade rip in the background. if we don't get a good enough deal, we could try and make it work (although i think it would go badly). but at least we'll have covered ourselves.
If that's the crack that the Pistons front office is leaking out, DA's on his game for reporting it while others haven't.
Of course, finding out what the real deal is with possible trades should be interesting and what DA is doing as well. Tayshaun looks to be traded based solely off our draft, but I've seen hide nor hair of Tayshaun trades other than some weird noise about Bosh a couple months ago.
Joel Brigham: I liked Ben Gordon and everything, but $11 million a year is just too much. Detroit can have him. They suck anyway...
Who the fuck is Joel Bringham?
I dunno, I pulled it from my new favorite link.
I wanted to ask that exact question...no balls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fool
fixedQuote:
Originally Posted by Gl'enn
And Gordon's deal starts at $8.62 mil if it's 5 years and $50 mil. That's right where we all thought it would be.
Giving him the extra $5mil pushes his starting salary up to $9.48 mil! At that price I think we overpaid slightly.
Not too bad, but not good. That cash could come in handy.
I hope that we signed both our guys to the lower reported totals. That way we'd still have almost $5 mil to sign someone else (a starting SF) and then package Rip and Tay for our Franchise Big (Bosh)
The cap space would be nice to leverage and I certainly think we can, using that and Kwame/Maxiell as expirings and salary fodder. In the end, there are still quite a bit of moves we are capable of.
Rip has been the guy mentioned as possibly traded so I'm gonna follow the Powder Theory and go with Tayshaun getting traded, or both of them in the same package for Bosh.
Come on Joe.
Tay, Rip, 3 future 1sts for Bosh, Humphries and Banks.
PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
way too fucking much. Tay/Rip alone should be more than enough. 3 future 1sts would be suicide.
Marcus Banks has played on an average of 2 teams per NBA season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharaoh
It has been proven the combination of Bosh and "Villanova" in the front court is incredibly soft.