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Read the thread and you'll see exactly who was excited about him and who was not.
And yet you'll still defend the pick to this day, company man, lol.Quote:
In hindsight, the money Joe saved by trading out of the first round last year may net us one more nice free agent.
it was a second round pick. there's nothing to defend or attack. 2nd round picks are crapshoots by definition.
By "company man" I guess I don't have an irrational hatred of all things Pistons, nor do i have a desire to bash the hire of a guy that already played a key part in us winning a championship, without even giving him a chance.
Shit, I HATED Curry, and i even gave him a chance.
And yes, if that extra 1+mil Joe saved by trading out of the first round helps us lock up Big Baby (ironically one of the guys he could have picked up in the 2nd round in 2007), then it all comes full circle, and he's fixed his mistake.
But aren't we supposed to get stars with every single selection no matter where we pick or else Joe is a failure?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
That seems to be the common belief...
I'm so glad we didn't have this board 25 years ago. McClosky would have been run out of town long before the bad boys ever got to the finals. He royally fucked up as many trades and picks as he nailed.
What made him great, and what makes Joe great, is the fact he isnt afraid to make another move to correct a mistake.
He was only a second rounder because we traded down. While 2nd rounders are a crap shoot, you can still draft a better player there. Those who opposed him wanted Chalmers remember. I also wanted DeAndre Jordan and would have been fine with CDR. Any of those 3 would have been far better than Sharpe and would be on the team right now for depth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
I agree trading down could prove beneficial, but that doesn't mean he took the right player there. He could have had Sharpe with one of the other 2nd rounders (we've been through this).
Maybe if you stop spit shining 2nd round picks when we draft them, then you won't have your words brought back up when they bust?
Nobody expects 2nd rounders to all pan out, but nobody forced you to defend the pick, either.
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Originally Posted by WTFchris
You did just knock Plaisted for missing a year. The guy we picked in the 1st and traded also missed the year.
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Notes: Transferred from Mississippi State to UAB after his sophomore year. Has struggled with academic issues at both Mississippi State and UAB. Was diagnosed with narcolepsy.
Positives: Long, athletic big man. Explosive leaper. Good mid range shooter. Good ball handler. Can put it on the floor and get to the basket.
Negatives: Has played in just 18 games over the past three years. Very few scouts have solid scouting reports on him.
Summary: Sharpe has some upside and has drawn some interest from teams in the late second round.
Not a valid point. We made that pick for Seattle (doesn't mean Joe would have taken that player if he kept the pick).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermy
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Detroit is selecting White for the Seattle SuperSonics, a Pistons source told me.
the 2nd round is a crapshoot. Every team that picks someone thinks they got a gem. Only a handful are right, and it typically isn't the same teams every year.
Sharpe was the wrong pick, but it could have easily been the right one.
It's like buying a scratch off lottery ticket and then being blamed for buying the wrong one after the fact.
I know. I don't expect all the 2nd rounders to pan out, but you can't miss on every single damn one. We got Memo and that's it. Amir was a solid pick still. Tay was a good first rounder, so was Stuckey. Pretty much the rest of the drafting has sucked ass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gl'enn
I don't expect perfection, but could we find a gem once and a while?
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Originally Posted by Kstat
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Originally Posted by WTFchris
A very valid point. Some team which has made some good picks lately wanted him so much more than LaMarcus and Mario that they traded up to get him. He was only a 2nd rounder because talent, the likes of which would have pissed you off, was taken above him.
Horrible analogy. I suppose if there are 4 other scratch off options that have higher payout odds and you pick the one with worse odds because you think it looks prettier...then you are correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
except I never said sharpe was a winner. Deal with it.
Sonny Weems had higher payout odds than Mario chalmers according to most. That means shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFchris
We didn't pick Sonny Weems. How does that matter. Did Sharpe have more upside than those three I mentioned? Was he higher rated (that answer is no by a mile)? Was he a glaring need (no, we could have used a PG or C more than a backup forward when we had Amir and Max).
Either he had more upside than Jordan/Chalmers/CDR or Joe was on some serious drugs.
his upside was very high. He was and is very talented.
His problem is that he continues to be a bad apple, despite his medication. This have very little to do with his talent and a lot to do with the fact he wore out his welcome in record time.
When your affiliated NBDL team wants no part of you, it isn't because you can't play. It's because there are non-basketball issues they can't work with.
In the 2nd round if we get a bench role player, we've beaten the odds and I'm happy with it. If Washington or Summers turn into decent bench guys for us, I'll say Joe did a good job. Sometimes you have to take the guy that just looks like an average/decent pick instead of swinging for the fences and striking out (Sharpe). Sharpe was a sleeper, but not in the sense we hoped.
Afflalo is a good example. He won't be a star, and likely not even an above-average starter at any point. He's going to be a solid defensive guard off the bench. Everyone hated the pick, but it was a successful pick. He had 4 solid years at UCLA and they knew what you were getting.
I wanted them to go for Petteri Koponen, an 18 year old PG who is now averaging less >3points, >1assist, and 30%fg (25%3pt) in Italy or Tiago Splitter, who both had huge upside. Splitter couldn't get out of his old contract that expires in 2010, and there's a big chance he stays in Europe where he'll make 3-4mil a season instead of taking a rookie salary here.
finally, some common sense.
If Dajuan Summers and Jonas Jerebko can't play, then I'll never get excited over a 2nd rounder ever again. But I know for a fact they are both NBA-ready players. These guys are not projects.
I found this, but it only covers the first round:
http://i31.tinypic.com/10qmd06.jpg
http://www.82games.com/barzilai1.htm
Joe's first round picks:
12th - 53% chance, missed
9th - 63% chance, missed
23rd - 29% chance, hit
2nd - 92% chance, missed
25th - 26% chance, missed
26th - 24% chance, did ok
27th - 23% chance, did ok
15th - 45% chance, hit
29th - 21% chance, missed
that's a bad track record. I would expect of the 5 picks in the 20's that only 1 would pan out and 1-2 more become role players. That is exactly what happened so his track record is good there.
The problem is with 4 top 15 picks, we should have hit on 2-3 of those and we only hit on Stuckey.
Yeah, second rounders are a crap shoot. But when you underachieve on first rounders people start to put 2nd rounders under a microscope too.
FWIW, I was pretty adamant about wanting CDR with our 1st round pick, then he slipped past us in the 2nd.
Don't assume we hit on Stuckey just yet. He has to prove himself still. This season should be a good indicator, if he makes strides or stays where he was last season.
Which of those picks is Delfino? I'd classify him as a "did ok", he had the potential to turn into a hit before the knee injury but a fluke injury isn't the GM or scout's fault. That's like saying Len Bias is a blemish on the record of whoever drafted him. No one knew he was going to OD, and you can't say "they should have known he had a drug problem" because half the league did back then.
I would expect of the 5 picks in the 20's that only 1 would pan out and 1-2 more become role players. That is exactly what happened.
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trouble is "panned out" means "hit" meaning 4 of 5 when he had a 20% chance with each.
That's outstanding.
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Originally Posted by Zekyl
Yeah, I bashed both picks and wanted DeAndre, but I'm over it.
Percent chances on our picks in the 20's:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermy
29, 26, 24, 23, 21
If all are 20 percent we should hit on 1 of the 5. We did that with Tay. I considered all those extra percentages above 20 to equate to expecting 1-2 being role players.
Like I said, Joe did well with the picks in the 20's.
He completely bombed the lotto/near lotto picks. And Zekyl is right, we can't even consider Stuckey a hit yet. I'd bet on it rather than against it, but we don't really know yet.
So hit only equals star? What does hit mean Chris? Give me a borderline example on both sides.
I mean, if the #2 pick hits >90% of the time, explain Darko, Swift, Williams, Bradley, Ferry, Bias, Bowie, Stipanovich, Griffith......?????
No you don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
Thank you.
Hmm, after reading it all it isn't saying the chances of a hit. It's the % better than the next pick. So at #2 there is a %90 chance that the player taken there is better than #3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermy
Not that much different unless both players are busts. Then you had a %90 chance of getting a 'better' bust.
So Joe had a %90 chance of getting a better player than the Nuggs could at #3, and so on.
So in your examples:
Darko vs Melo
Swift vs Miles
Williams vs Dunleavy
Bradley vs Penny
Ferry vs Elliot
and so on.
%90 of the time the #2 pick should be better than the #3 pick.
For the record I don't expect EVERY single draft pick to pan out.
I expect them to take the Best Player Available with every pick.
And on Draft Day every year the majority of this board complain about us not picking Blair, Chalmers, or someone else.
How is it possible that the board as a group can usually pick better players than our scouts and GM?
Does anyone on here work for the team and have access to all the test results the organisation has on these kids? No! Yet every freakin' year we all sit here on Draft Day and beg & plead with Joe to draft Blair, saying "who cares? It's the second round - if he's out of the league in 2 years it doesn't matter".
And what do they do? They let Blair pass. Time will tell if he should have been one of our picks in the second round. And I can imagine ths board in 4 years time - mocking me for pointing out people wanted Blair, using his injuries as a reason Joe passed and all kinds of junk to JUSTIFY our pathetic record on Draft Day.
Let's be honest - I have never pulled a guy out of my butt and held him up and said "Joe should have drafted Random Dude".
Whenever I have taken Joe to task about the Drafting I have always mentioned guys who at the time were viewed as equal or better than the guy we picked.
So, for the FINAL time:
In the Beginning:
2000 = Mateen - why did Joe draft him? Why did our scouts think he was the BPA? Or was he drafted to fill a need? Why was he drafted to fill a need when our team was so poor?
Players we missed: Morris Peterson, Jamaal Magloire, Des Mason, Q Richardson and I can't remember the hype on Turkoglu
2001 = Rodney White - people everywhere had him projected as a top talent, a guy that was the next Big Dog, who could put points on the board. How did our scouts get it so wrong? How did they not see he had no heart, no mental toughness, no guts?
Players we missed: Joe Johnson, Richard Jefferson, Troy Murphy and Zach Randolph all were pretty well hyped at the time too.
2002 Joe landed Prince - Blind Squirrel meet your nut
Based on his first 3 Drafts I'd say Joe finally learnt to take the BPA with "proven" skills that translate into the NBA.
Cleaves had no jumpshot, White was all about potential - Prince was proven.
2003 = Darko fiasco. My ONLY deal with the pick is how come it became an epic failure? He's never done anything in the league (still) and has been in a few different places now too. Why did no one see he was crap when Bosh was there?
Player Missed: Bosh - we went big because of "equal" talent. Don't bring that Wade/Melo stuff in here.
Also in 2003 we had Delfino. All those that oppose my view here always claim no one saw his injuries coming. Really? He fell to us because of his injuries. Go to RGM and look it up. It was widely known the guy had injury concerns. The dude had skills but why pick a guy with injury issues? Why not pick a guy like Josh Howard?
After the success of Prince one would assume Howard would be a lock.
Players missed: Josh Howard, Jason Kapono, Luke Walton, were all "known" or hyped.
2004 - no first rounder and then picked at #54 - why bother?
2005 - The Maxiell Madness - here we have a team coming towards the end of their run and we take a career bench player? David Lee rocked the Chi-Town Camp and we passed on him.
Players Missed: Our favourite free agents: Lee and Bass, Salim Stoudemire or if you wanna swing for the fences you can go CJ Miles, Monta Ellis, Roko Ukic, Louis Williams.
Hell, when we got Amir I thought it was a blessing.
2006 = we picked 60th so who cares.
It's too soon to label 2007 or 2008 a success or failure but the rest of them (except Prince, Memo and Amir) are clear cut HUGE mistakes.
And the majority of these picks were made while we were a legit contender to the title!! Imagine how different things could be.
And no, I'm not stupid enough to assume DYNASTY but another title? Sure - that's possible. Hell, we nearly did that while suffering from Joe's complete and utter disregard for the Draft.
Thank God he does dump his mistakes early, and has (it seems) mostly changed his ways on Draft Day. Time will tell but the last 3 Drafts give me hope.
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/...,-Day-Two-202/Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharaoh
Here's a review of Maxiell from the Chi-Town camp in question:
And here's David Lee:Quote:
Jason Maxiell: 8 points, 3/8 shooting, 3 rebounds, 2 blocks – Maxiell continues to impress, succeeding in spite of all the “undersized PF” clichés. He is an athletic marvel, strong as an ox, and shockingly athletic for a player as thick as he is. He creates more than enough space to get his shot off by getting very low on his post ups, and continues to show off regular highlight plays thanks to a freakish 7-foot-2 wingspan. Players his size simply shouldn’t be able to explode the way that Maxiell does. While he didn’t put up the type of stat line that he is capable of in the game, Maxiell was dominant in the individual post drills.
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David Lee: 12 points, 4/7 shooting, 5 rebounds – Lee had a quiet but effective showing in his first game at Chicago – especially in the second half. He displayed some unique finesse-type skills for a power forward. He shows dynamite quickness, smooth passing, and soft touch around the basket. While Lee probably didn’t dominate the way a player of his billing might be expected to at this camp, this probably had more to do with his lack of touches and the style of play than anything that would reflect poorly on Lee. We feel that more impressive statistical performances could be in store for David Lee. One play of note took place in the 2-on-2 drills, where he put down a spectacular reverse dunk from the baseline over Ellis Myles.
You point out the guys we missed in 2001 right after saying that people everywhere projected White as a top talent. People everywhere means not just our staff. Joe can't be faulted for that one. White was actually supposed to be off the board when we picked.
I wanted Jefferson at the time. I had no idea who Rodney White was.
In the Darko year, he was the big name. People were all about Darko, not just the Pistons staff. Bosh was rated no where near a top-3 talent in that draft by anyone. It was James #1, the 2nd tier was Anthony and Milicic with Wade just barely below them and Bosh was rated below those 4 by everyone. You can't blame us for taking the guy rated as a top-3 talent by the entire league over someone else unless you're basing it on their production since then.
I still contend that Darko would have been a decent PF if he'd been drafted by a team that would have handed him 15-20 mpg as a rookie and developed his face-up game instead of trying to make him play with his back to the basket. Who we SHOULD have drafted? It's not Bosh, although that's always the comparison. We should have drafted Wade. (That really hurt to say)
I was excited when we picked Max. I didn't know much about him when we made the pick, but I read up on him after and he was a perfect fit for the Pistons team we had at the time. He could still develop into what we saw flashes of two years ago, and I'm not ready to dump him off just yet. If we don't sign Brandon Bass, I'd rather keep Max. Give him a chance with a consistent 20 mpg and a real coach, then judge him. He's willing to post up and he's developed a nice midrange J. He hustles his butt off and he's a hard worker. Was he as good as a couple of players taken after him? No. Was he better than players taken before him? Yes. He was a solid pick where we got him.
Come on, P.....
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Originally Posted by Pharaoh
It's one or the other. You can't blame Joe for taking Delfino because he had injury concerns and say he's terrible at drafting, then blame Joe for passing on a guy with injury concerns to say he's terrible at drafting. That's ignorant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharaoh
Zek coming strong
Actually there is a big difference. Delfino went in the first EARLIER than expected and Blair went in the second round much LATER than expected. Usually a good GM gambles on the latter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zekyl
I'm pretty sure Delfino was supposed to be a lottery pick. I remember Dumars getting a lot of credit after that draft because Delfino was possibly going top 10.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nbadraft/d03/story?id=1572845Quote:
Ford's Take: The Pistons pegged Delfino very early in the draft process. They spent all day trying to trade up to get him, now he falls right into their lap. He could be the steal of the draft. In a recent workout in Detroit, he wowed them with his toughness and shooting ability. He reminds me of Michael Finley. He'll contribute right away if he stays over here. Or, he could play in Italy one more year.
Welcome Travis Walton to the squad!