So, who's more powerful -- Goku or Superman?
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So, who's more powerful -- Goku or Superman?
Swami:
The conflict is irreducible (Or not, depending on whichever is worse. I'm not good at double-negative chaos math like Jeff Goldblum). The people that believe in god are always more dangerous because they always find some divine blessing for killing. And they are fucking dumb.
And why is it that people, mankind, supposedly the highest life form, need some invisible pie in the sky to tell them to be good or they'll have to sit in the corner for eternity?
And I'm with George Carlin--I STILL want to know what happened to all the poor saps who ate meat on Friday when it was still a sin. Are they still out of luck? George now knows--but he ain't talkin'
I guess I should have explained myself better. My point was that I do good things because I feel like god blessed me with the gifts to do good things. Some people are much worse off than me, and I feel like god put me in a position to help those people.
Someone was talking about how we were basically accidents and not planned by a higher being or anything. If you feel that way, you do not feel like you were blessed with the ability to reason, etc...then what is the purpose of those abilities?
I didn't mean that non-religeous people are not good. I simply meant that I'd hate to feel that the gifts I receive were simply random and that there wasn't a purpose to them.
Also, I got a little defensive when people were saying those who believed in God are ignorant and are some of the worst people they have ever met.
I don't have a problem with people believing or not believing. I don't think either "side" is really wrong. They just feel differently is all.
Purpose isn't a consideration Chris. It's like when someone asks me "If you are an athiest, what do you believe in?" I don't sit around contemplating what to believe or why or reason, I simply am what it is I am. I happen to be a very fortunate person, and it's rewarding to share what you would call blessings with others. No reason, just because.
well, I doubt there are many religious people who believe they should be nice because it gets them into heaven. If you actually believe that, you aren't really living gods message at all. giving with the expectation of receiving is not really giving at all.
People who do something with strings attached are probably not true Christians (I'm sure it's the same in most religions). Good people do good things just because like you said. People who do something nice to get into heaven believe in heaven just in case.
Protestants believe in salvation through faith alone but Catholics believe works are also necessary for entrance into heaven.
I'm Catholic but don't really believe what they preach sometimes. I am pro-choice, for gay rights, democratic and I feel a priest should be allowed to marry. I think sometimes people just listen to what their church says and just believe it. You have to follow your own heart. I think everyone takes something different out of what is preached to them.
Why are you Catholic, then? Why not be, say, a Unitarian? What do you believe that's different than what a Protestant would believe? Is the Catholic God different than the Protestant God?
I guess because I was raised Catholic. To me I don't see a reason to switch because I don't take the preaching as the end all be all. If I did, I would switch because I would be in conflict.
The other part is that it's pretty hard to find a good church. We go to a Catholic Church now that is pretty easy going and doesn't preach those types of things. I already find what I need in their messages.
In a somewhat-literal sense, I think that the devil is in the details.
A good reason to switch would be that you disagree with them on some pretty fucking important points. I can't imagine the cognitive dissonance those issues would cause, and why you'd even consider going there. Holy shit,man, it's one thing to find a nice place that maybe doesn't have all the calisthenics that go with a typical catholic mass--but to justify it by saying you weed out the majority of what they stand for is silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFchris
Pretty fucking desperate sounding.
Unitarian is a pretty drastic change from Catholicism. Unitarians deny the divinity of Jesus which produces a lot of changes in their theology, practices, beliefs as opposed to Catholics and the great majority of Protestants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Mxy
Asking if there is a difference between Catholic ideas of God and Protestant ideas of God is a bit difficult because Protestantism is a category of many belief systems. For the most part, (and I am a Protestant so take this with some of salt) the main difference is in the significance the congregations give to the role of the Bible and the church rather than qualities believed of God. Catholics emphasize the role of the church as it was established first (before the Bible) and directly by Jesus (who didn't write anything but did build a church in terms of his followers and believers, plus he says to Paul, literally, that Paul is the rock upon which he, Jesus, has built his church) and the congregational understanding of the Bible (church authority over what the Bible means). Protestants emphasize the role of the Bible as divine authority and the individuals understanding/calling from the Bible with the church being a coming together of those individual understandings (in terms of the role of the Bible and the church).
There are plenty of Protestant denominations who's theological beliefs (beliefs about God) are markedly different than Catholicism, but typically both Catholics and Protestants agree on what each considers the most important issues.
Well, they don't preach about any of that at my church (like I said). I happen to know that the Catholic Church believes those things though. So I'm not weeding out information during mass or anything. Think of it this way. Say your parents believe marriage is between a man and women only but you feel people should be able to marry whoever they want. You don't decide everything they say is bullshit and find new parents. You realize that they don't push that belief on you and you can simply learn the things you do agree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip Goshboots
Here is another reason why I don't change. I like to express those opinions to other Catholics in hopes that they too will see my points. Tahoe gets hammered in political threads on here, but he sticks it out because if he gets even one person to agree with him, it makes his time worthwhile. My dad is in fact a republican, and I work on him all the time. I think eventually he will agree with enough of the points I make to change his mind (because I really get no reasons why he hasn't already).
I think I'd be a coward if I simply left the church over a few issues I disagree with. If the teachings were totally against my beliefs, then I agree. But those few issues I disagree with could be changed.
Honestly, I actually respect anyone willing to call himself a Catholic. There are tons of people out there who were raised Catholic and believe in it, but they can't be bothered to go to church for some insipid reason or another, so they stop calling themselves Catholic. It's usually not on principle. It's more like "I don't like getting up on Sunday mornings, and some priest somewhere molested a little boy, so I'm going to use that as a reason to stop getting up on Sunday morning."
Catholics are actually pretty fortunate. They have a strong religious community around them that has something to offer at every step in life. Not many religious people can count on such a supportive community.
This may sound strange to a lot of you. I don't care. I just know that anyone who is willing to come and help a dying person achieve peace of mind through prayer and meditation is doing good work, and that's something that both Catholic priests and Buddhist monks do.
Also rabbis.
Chris--that's dumb. I can choose a church, I can't choose my parents.
I am (was?) Jewish and I never heard of such a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fool
Hmm, come to think of it, Shiva and the other death rituals in Judaism that I can think of center on the bereaved rather than the dead or dying. It's not a rabbinical duty to visit the sick or dying?
Swami:
Man, once you are in the Club, you are in the Club. I think the Jewish mythology has given us a great look into their sense of humor with the god they created. Ironic, crotchety, jealous, mean, kill 'em all if they won't listen to ya, sell 'em into slavery to teach 'em a lesson every now and then, give 'em permission to go on rampant killing sprees when they get a bit frustrated, make 'em wander around the dessert for 40 years, go down to Earf yourself and let 'em kill ya, put 'em in a paradise and tell them there's ONE THING they can't do (but it's really fucking beautiful and how can they resist? Talking snakes and apples...man, most of that shit is fucking hilarious. I'll tell ya something: good ol' Jewish rabbis are some of the funniest people you will ever meet. I mean, look at those sideburns!
A lot of that isn't in the Jewish Bible, player.
You guys lost my dumbass about 10 posts ago.
Not too shy to admit that when it comes to deep and meaningful discussions on different religions I am lost.
Still interested, even though you guys are now discussing the ins and outs of several different religions.
Swami - is it possible that the Supreme Being resides within us?
From the Buddhist perspective? Absolutely. Any human can achieve the highest Enlightenment in this life with enough hard work and dedication.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharaoh
It's not particularly likely for the vast majority of us, though. For the rest of us, it's going to take many, many lifetimes, so instead we just work on being the best people we can be. Serious work, though.
Buddhism is about knowing that inside each of us is an Enlightened being. That being is crusted over with lifetimes of greed, hatred, and delusion. The goal is not to become something greater than we are, but to become something less than we are. Start throwing away those things that aren't doing you any good. Chisel away at the cigarettes and the booze and the racism and the fear and the laziness and the one-night stands and the titty bars and the fights and the swearing and the gossip and the weapons and the stealing and the cruelty, and eventually, all you're left with is the Supreme Being.
Are you referring to the Talmud or the Old Testament?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fool
I'm not going to get too into this because there is nothing more pointless than an argument about religion, but I will share a couple brief thoughts:
I believe in a Supreme Being. In the most simplistic sense: I don't believe that everything is just coincidence. I don't believe that endless space was just an accident. I don't believe the gift of life is just chance. The beauty of this world and outside of this world is too perfect too perfect to be accidental.
I believe in free will and don't believe in fate. I think the struggles that we face on Earth will someday be considered pointless. I think our job is to do the best we can in our time on Earth and then enjoy ourselves in Heaven.
I believe that religious people can be arrogant and evil. When religious people start preaching to you and judging you, I think that does against what the message is. It drives people away, and that's exactly the opposite of what Christianity was founded upon.
I believe non-religious people can be arrogant and evil. When people make fun of you for having a different belief than you, it's just as bad as religious zealots. Either way you look at it, there's no proof. Both sides pretend there's proof - but there's not. I think that mean people are going to be mean, regardless if there a person of faith or not. Wars are started over religion, but if there was no religion, those wars would have been started over something different. To fight over beliefs is the stupidest thing in the world.
Finally, someone mentioned that they get mad when religious people try and explain everything in science with God. The way I see it, not everything can be explained by religion or science. We, as humans, aren't that smart. Just because we're the smartest beings on Earth doesn't make us all-knowing. But we are proud. And we think that we should be able to explain everything and if we cannot, then we get frustrated by it. I don't understand how everything works, but I'm okay with that. It makes me uncomfortable from time to time, but I'm okay with it.
But as I stated earlier, getting mad and arguing about other people's beliefs is pathetic. If everyone just believed in what they wanted and let everyone else alone, it would be fine. I won't explain my beliefs to anyone unless they ask my beliefs. Standing up in my wedding: An Agnostic, a Muslim, a Catholic, a Baptist and a non-denominational Christian. Beliefs aren't bad until you start fighting over them.
That's about all I got. I'm sure there's plenty of things in my post that some of you will love to tear apart.
(That was a much longer post than I intended)
The Old Testament (only in the Jewish order), but neither contains the stuff about Jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip Goshboots
No shit, but you said "alot" of that stuff wasn't in the Jewish bible--all of it was except the Jesus stuff. But Jesus was allegedly Jewish and allegedly hinted at throughout the Old Testament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fool
Jews certainly don't think Jesus was hinted at in the Old Testament. As for the "lot", you are correct. Originally I thought you started talking about Jesus as the "one path to heaven" when you actually started talking about the Tree of Knowledge. In my defense, I usually don't read even that much of your posts.
As a side note, I think it's very probable that Jesus never existed, and that the Christian religion was created for political purposes. It doesn't matter though. It still contains really beautiful stuff.
To be clear, my question was mostly for WTFchris to chew on -- what makes HIM a Catholic vs. a nominal Christian? It wasn't intended to be an exercise in comparative religion... was just trying to phrase it in some different ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fool
For most, it's part of the society they grew up in, and isn't an active choice. Some dude dunks you in water at a Protestant church before you remember, you're taught the Lord's Prayer with "For Thine Is The Kingdom..." and poof, you're a Protestant. Some really get into it, while for many others, that's the extent of their "religiousility".
I think a large percentage of religious people are essentially praying to the same "God" with a different name, and reading a different book about him. Just look at how many religious figureheads were supposedly born on Dec 25th. If there is a supreme being, he probably understands that depending on what part of the world you were born in you give him a different name, and he won't hold it against you just because you were born on the wrong continent.
Maybe I'm an idiot, but I don't know what you mean by nominal Christian. I have only been to Catholic and Methodist (friend's church growing up) Church before. I know about the Mormon church (my brother's old GF was such). Otherwise I couldn't tell you the difference between Catholic and other churches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Mxy
The Catholic church is a huge institution, and (according to its own way of looking at things) it is older than the Bible. Therefore, the Bible is still pretty important, but the catechism of the Church is more so. Simply put, the Catholics teach that the Bible is a part of Christianity but it's not the whole shebang. Catholic countries are pretty much all of southern Europe and all of Latin America.Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFchris
The Orthodox churches were once a part of the Catholic church, but they split off in the early middle ages because they didn't agree that the bishop of Rome (i.e. the Pope) should be the leader of the entire church. Since then, history has split them even more over issues of doctrine and ritual, but even now they don't have a unified structure with one single leader like the Catholics do. Orthodox groups include Greeks, Russians, Armenians, Syrian Christians, Egyptian Christians, Serbians, etc. If you've a Christian, and you've got a unibrow, you're probably Orthodox.
The Protestants split off in the late middle ages, but for a different reason - they believed that the Catholic church had become corrupt, it had lost its moral authority and diverged from the core message of Jesus. They were basically religious purists who thought that the Catholic church had diluted Christianity. So they broke off and decided that the only way to really be good Christians was to pore over every tiny detail of the Bible, and interpret it as literally as they could. Protestants include Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and many other denominations. They emphasize the Bible as the utmost authority on everything. Generally Protestants come from northern Europe - countries like Denmark, the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway and England, but they also convert large numbers of people in 3rd world countries too.
The Church of England is a different story altogether. They split from the Roman Catholic church a long time ago, but only about a political issue. Since then, they've been influenced heavily by Protestant doctrines. They consider themselves both Catholic and Protestant at the same time, and they've been working for hundreds of years toward reconciling their church with the Pope. The Anglicans and Episcopalians are both part of the same group.
Mormons are a uniquely American religion, and it's hard to say conclusively whether or not they are really strictly Christians at all. They consider themselves to be, but their beliefs are very strange to the ears of most other Christians.
What group you belong to is usually a matter of what nationality your parents were, not what your beliefs are. But at least you can see how it all got started.
That's all well and good, but does the supreme being understand why those who "read a different book" don't seem at all averse to killing the shit out of each other in his name?Quote:
Originally Posted by UxKa
The problem with the "different book" theory is that if there is one "supreme being"--he has GOT to have one message and one message only--but we really do not, nor seem to want to, know what it is. Ultimately, in my opinion, that is THE problem with people who don't just believe in god, but feel the need to have big books read to them by people who take that shit and spout their BS as gospel interpretations--they ACT on the shit, pass on the lies and the interpretations, and forcefeed their own demonspawn this crap, which exponentially grows this crap enough that you WILL have enough misguided zealots to completely fuck life up for EVERYONE else. And it is all based on a being and a practice (worship and faith) that should do nothing but bring people together and give them hope.
There are crazy people in every religion who kill in their "God's" name. Obviously, they have misread the message. Whether we're talking about Christians, Muslims, whatever, the majority do get the right message from their preferred book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip Goshboots
Nominal means "in name only".Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFchris
There's lots of folks who I'd class as vaguely Christian. They say they believe in a God and Jesus mostly to shut up whoever asks the question, but otherwise don't really think about faith at all.
I'd say that is about 80% of christians. And I include the fucks who go to church just to say they go in that group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Mxy
Zip is who I would go to if I wanted to get the pulse of Christianity.
Belief in a supreme being is a lot like the appendix. There might have been a time in the past when it was a critical survival tool but now just a vestigial notion you can remove and never miss it. And like the appendix, the fact that it remains means it can get inflamed and cause death.
Now tell them how geometry+bridges = no god.