Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
We lost our defensive identity. We lost the drive to play defense. If we aren't going to play D, let him get his max deal elsewhere.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
We lost our defensive identity. We lost the drive to play defense. If we aren't going to play D, let him get his max deal elsewhere.
Silly notion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahoe
Name one team that plays great D. Nobody does. Miami SA and Dallas all win because they shoots over %50 and they have a bunch of scorers. They dont allow any fewer points than we do.
The problem with our players is theyre still under the assumption the NBA cares about defense. Clearly, that's no longer the case.
I'm just speaking hypothetically anyway, this only applies if laimbeer gets hired.
And so am I...speaking hypothetically...And thanks for making my point. If we aren't going to play D, let Ben go elsewhere and bring in a scorer. Outscore Miami, SA and Dallas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
so NOW will people FINALLY believe that being an all jumpshooting team with no post scoring presence and last in points in the paint is a BAD THING!? These guys are playing like they don't even know how to do basic inside-out basketball, its either jumper, or go iso into the paint. As I recall there were a few people here complaining about this during the regular season, and basically had the regular season record shoved in their face.
Two things might happen here:
Either Flipper pleads his case to JoeD, suggesting that this "isn't HIS team yet", that he should be allowed the requisite 3 year "wait and see" philosophy to get his kind of players in, or:
Fire Flip, and hire a coach who's a better fit with the current team's philosophy.
This team is going to make the playoffs, that's a given. Then the coach takes over, and Flip simply isn't a playoff coach. He is incapable of winning the big games. Can anybody here point to Flip and his gameplan as the "reason" the Pistons won game 7 against the Cavs? Honestly, it never should've gotten past game 6.
When teams look past as opponent, or feel an entitlement that a trip to the Finals is a given -- that's all on the coach!
The problem isn't how many jumpshots we take (in fact, all 3 of the top jumpshooting teams are still playing), it's how bad our inside game really is. We have one player who can really do it and he'd rather sit 5-feet behind the 3 point line. That and he has only had 2 or 3 good games the whole playoffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by metr0man
Our offense would work just fine if Ben Wallace could hit %50 of his FTs.
Seriously, the difference is that thin.
Everybody on the court knows ben cant hit a FT. Ben knows it. His team knows it. The other team knows it. So, theyll leave him wide open to play defense 5 on 4, and when he gets the pass, theyll foul him, and it winds up being a turnover.
Of course, nobody on the team is going to keep on passing it to ben if they know itll wind up being a turnover, so were stuck.
Don't mistake this either: Ben is WIDE open on every play. We just cant give him the ball. No style of play will change that.
Our problem isnt that we dont go inside, its that we dont HAVE an inside game to go to.
Or maybe it's because the Eastern Conference is still the Leastern Conference, and the records of both the pistons AND the Heat are inflated with cupcake V's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrade
The problem isn't the erratic shooting %, or a lack of an inside scorer, though both contribute. It goes deeper than that. When WaDe is penetrating the paint like Shaq penetrates a Blue Plate Special and coming away with all of his blood still inside his body, something is wrong. The moment when it was apparent that the refs were siding with the Heat (game one?), Flipper should have unleashed the alpacas. It was nice to see WaDe smash into the floor several times tonight, but only AFTER he'd taken his shot. Rule of thumb: any guard willing to drive the hole should be risking his life in the process. After all, the refs are blowing more than Paris Hilton after five blunts, so you may as well foul HARD.
There's a lack of championship effort, here. A lack of ownership. The Pistons should feel, after all of the talk last year of "well, if DWaDe had remained healthy", that they have something to prove against the Heat. Prove that, WITH a healthy DWaDe, the Heat STILL can't beat Detroit!
It's simply not there, and that's too bad. There's still a chance, but I don't think Flipper is a strong enough personality to rally around.
Worked fine in 2004, and almost as well in 2005.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
Um, our offense was actually WORSE then.Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyMcLain
Back then we won games 79-70. Now we're losing them 85-90.
Its the fact the NBA does not allow for one-sided defensive basketball anymore. It is IMPOSSIBLE to succeed with a mediocre offense anymore, because no defense today is able to shut a team down completely, under today's rules.
You saw it out there tonight. We tried to clamp down like we used to, and we only sent Miami to the line 50 times. We will not be permitted to play the same brand of defense we used to. The NBA is making it VERY clear our style of ball isnt going to work any longer.
Death.
I'm so pissed and actually shocked right now.
As much as I feared the reliance on the jumpshot being the downfall of this team, I'm not going to play the "I told you so" card, since even I had no idea that it could get this bad, this fast.
This team is in turmoil.
As a player, Laimbeer was far more about the jumper than taking it inside.Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyMcLain
dale davis deserves the max for finally delivering a hard foul on Wade last night.
nothing dirty, just an honest to goodness, playground type hard foul.
sure that didn't win the game or anything remotely close......but seeing someone (our 3rd string big man) finally decide not to let Wade get easy dunks was refreshing.
i'm starting to agree with this. look at the teams in the conference finals. all can score and shoot a high percentage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kstat
where are the defensive teams like the Pistons, Spurs, Memphis, Pacers, etc.?
do we need to become the Suns? no. i hate to say this, but i do think our problem is more on the offensive end than defensive end. what that translates to for the future of the team, i dunno....
Even successful teams that run and gun get the ball to the rim. If I recall correctly, PHX was amongst the league leaders in points in the paint.
We don't get easy baskets anymore. Period.
A lot of that blame needs to fall on Chauncey, but a lot of it has to do with lack of player and ball movement as well.
There were a number of teams who generated more points in the paint - namely the New York Knicks, Golden State Warriors, and Milwaukee Bucks. Not exacly the cream of the NBA crop. The Phoenix Suns are the most jumper heavy team in the NBA (even if you don't like to admit it). Only in the playoffs have they started to go inside more, and that's due in large part to the way teams are playing them. That's the difference between them and us - when they're not hitting jumpers they can find their way into the paint. Same with the just-as-jumper-happy Mavericks. Our team, on the other hand, seems to get tighter and tighter and further away from the net.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn
Apart from the Ben-Shaq matchup, which had a number of typical Shaq bullshit calls (Shaq not called for that ever-present off-arm, Ben getting called for doing decent D), that wasn't really the case. This wasn't Game 3, where our runs were responded to with repeated Miami blowjobs by the refs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrade
We lost because we'd play fine D on Wade and he'd make some really tough shots.
We lost because we'd focus too much on one matchup and they'd get to the open man in Haslem.
We lost because we didn't do the work to win.
I'm glad that there aren't a bunch of you here blaming the loss(es) squarely on the officiating.
Did we get a bit of an unfair whistle? You bet.
Did we play hard enough/well enough to win? Nope.
We've had our asses handed to us by a team that wants it more. No excuses.
LOL@Pistons, indeed.
Indeed, I never said we deserved to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Mxy
We're fucked. It's over, and not just this series and this season.
The Pistons that we loved to watch over the past 5 years are done. Enjoy watching this group playing together for the last time Wednesday (I think I'll find something better to do that night).
It's fucking over. Done. Bye-bye.
Sheed has made it more than clear he's not interested in being a Piston any longer. Fuck him. He was my favorite player, but now he's a useless piece of shit out there. I counted on one hand how many times he actually stepped foot in the paint in the first half, the rest of the time he just loitered around the three point stripe, and started walking back the other way when he realized he wouldn't get the shot. A 7 footer, walking up and down the court, playing between the circles. Sure, that's what we need. Meanwhile, Ben's trying to outrebound 4 Heat players. And being criticized when he doesn't do it.
He showed signs of life in the second half, and I was encouraged. Then I got pissed at myself for feeling encouraged when our starting PF decided to get motivated for the biggest game of the season. He should've been busting his ass out there from the get-go, but he waits until the second have to even begin jogging? Fuck that.
And Sheed sitting on the scorer's table during timeouts? What the fuck? There's some serious shit going on in the locker room, and we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg. I'm not one to hit the panic button, but you only have to look at the complete inability to look motivated to see that this Piston team is rotten from the inside-out.
This team is done. Maybe in 7 or 8 years we'll see them back on top, maybe not. I seriously hope I'm wrong, but only an idiot wouldn't be able to see it all unraveling.
Typical conservative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gecko
Can't see shades of grey.
The officials basically handed the game to Miami, but Detroit (i.e. Rasheed) didn't really want it, anyway.
Middle ground, people.
Good luck to Miami in the next round. If they get this kind of help from the officials, they'll nab their first championship, while Joe D. hopefully tries to turn the signing of Rasheed Wallace to a long term deal into something.
I wonder what we could get from the Knicks for Sheed. They'd love to add him.
its all related though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrade
Why is our inside game so bad?
Because we're a jump shooting team that hasn't played an inside game all year. Now that they're kind of trying to play inside they look LOST. Sheed is just part of that, his game is a "jump shooting game", like you said he'd rather go jack up 3s than play the post.
Why were we so blind, is my question?
We all know playoff basketball is different than regular season basketball.
We all know that the team with the best regular season record doesn't necessarily win anything in the playoffs.
We all know that regular season teams are finesse jumpshooting teams, while playoff teams have an inside presence - - - yet we all sat back and watched Flip throw Brown's inside/out playoff basketball gameplan out the window in favor of an outside ONLY, jumpshooting regular season pretender of a team.
This is NOT one players fault, like Sheed or Ben. And I don't think it could just be the coach either.
We've lost our way, we've lost our desire or other teams have simply caught up to us. It didn't feel very good when the Bull finally beat us in 91(?). It's starting to feel earily the same.
THe fact we have a player that we know we cant afford to give the ball to is really hurting us.
If any other team in the league started a guy who shot %10 from the line, they'd look awful too. It's too easy NOT to exploit it.
A %50 like shaq or duncan is one thing, but when you know you have almost no chance of getting any points at all, it weighs your offense down like an anchor.
I dont blame the losses or the defensive issues on Ben.
I do, however, blame the downfall of our offense on Ben Wallace. Teams are using their centers as free safetys to jump all of RIp's rurl and SHeed's post ups in the lane, and we're taking every shot in the paint over a double team.
Taymelo, I didn't see the problem of excessive perimeter shooting, because I thought, wrongly it turns out, that when we needed an easy bucket in the playoffs, a guy like Rasheed Wallace would be willing and able to deliver one. But it turns out he's not.
Kstat, you confuse me. Youv'e illuminated the problems about Ben Wallace's offense and the implications of no-defense rule changes on the Pistons, but I sense at the same time that you're as determined as anyone here to pay Ben Max money. Why? (If I've got it wrong, my apologies.) Under the new NBA no-defense rules, doesn't this just condemn us to sub-championship status?
Regarding someone's Suns analogy: Even though we shoot a ton of jumpshots, we're nothing like the Suns:The Suns players shoot wide open jumpshots (maybe b/c they have S.Nash, who breaks down the defense, creating space); our guys shoot contested jumpshots. Big difference.
I'm not from Detroit. I've always rooted for the Pistons because they've symbolized hard work, grit, and substance over style--values that define, or I'd like to think define, my Midwestern upbringing. Now I'm not so sure. People change. Maybe teams do too.
I said Ben should get whatever he wants, so long as we're stilla championship team.
No, it's not. Phoenix and Dallas took as many jumpers as us and they're just fine in the middle. It's a personnel and coaching problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by metr0man
The Suns shoot wide open jumpers. We shoot contested jumpers. Analogy breaks down.
Can anybody tell me if this was the same prob the TWolves had in the playoffs under Flipper?
It's hard to say. Those Timberwolves teams were playing against the 1 or 2 seed most years.Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyMcLain
but he believes in hard work and loves pressure situations. Flips offense isnt his problem. its his the base of his philosophy thats not working. too soft, no resistence to taking the shots the defenses want you to take. And no priority on defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Mxy
I dont agree with this. get in a real coach with only half as good an offensive scheme but twice as good a defensive scheme and i'd bet my life savings on them getting back to playing the right way. they need a right way coach, this freedom shit is no good. their shot selection can be iffy at times and they need a coach to purge some of their impulses when they get bogged down into doing shit like rip taking people off the dribble getting a turnover on the pass. they arent robots, that playing the right way coaching went a longer way than it was given credit for.Quote:
Originally Posted by TK
I think Joe Dumars has be better about picking a coach. find a diamond in the rough. Flip is a Darko pick. Meaning that he is a good coach, but not for this team.
There was no analogy, you might want to look that word up. Anyways, my point is that the problem is not jumpers (which seems to be what many here think) but the settling for bad jumpers.Quote:
Originally Posted by realistic
One of my less-favorite moments was Chauncey taking an ill-advised 20' jumper after no ball movement with 15 seconds left on the shotclock, out of a timeout. I'm sure that was exactly the play Flip called and Chauncey just didn't make his shot, so Flip sucks at plays out of timeouts -- right? :)
yep he does. even if billups altered it. because you no command over your players if they dont even run your set play. so either way, no Flip can't coach well out of timeouts about 80 percent of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Mxy