I realize that this may be considered flaming, but it seemed odd that an ex-QB who had a good career and relationship with UM while there, and afterward, would go out of his way to burst one of UM`s most prominent delusional bubbles.

"Other schools which have good academic reputations have ways to get borderline athletes in and keep them in.” Harbaugh includes his alma mater, Michigan, in that indictment. “Michigan is a good school and I got a good education there,” he said, “but the athletic department has ways to get borderline guys in and, when they’re in, they steer them to courses in sports communications. They’re adulated when they’re playing, but when they get out, the people who adulated them won’t hire them.”

I just don`t get why a kid who isn`t guaranteed NFL talent would go to UM. You can come up to the house from the field, but you sure as hell aren`t marrying my daughter.

LOL @ not wanting it counted against you that you were a star football player and half-assed your way through your classes.

Not sure how to react to this. UM still seems to have a slightly higher standard than most. There have been talented athletes in the past that wanted to go to UM but couldn't (classic prop 48 style kids).

And yet, there's Marques Slocum or wahtever his name is. I don't even remember him much because he committed 43 years ago but has taken ACT/SAT, etc. 5 times per week since then to try to qualify and we never get straight answers about when he'll join the team.

So I don't understand what Harbaugh is trying to say. Is he making excuses for Stanford? Did he want them to "bend rules" like he was used to but they wouldn't? Was he offended as a player back in the day when rules were bent to get him teammates?

Apparently the only thing to come out of this is the revelation that
Michigan has higher standards than many, but not the HIGHEST standards. Not really news to me, but Harbaugh wins because people are talking about him.

So the bolded quote implies that if you cheer for a guy, you better be prepared to hire the guy? It would seem that favorable hires of former players would probably be some sort of recruiting violation anyways, so I guess we're screwed either way.

If you are making a racial argument with your "come in from the fields" comment", I would suggest that you take a look at the recent federal govt. case against UM, which resulted from UM wanting to maintain affirmative action. By the way, IMO, the strongest selection bias is for kids from high-priced private schools, but no one ever questions that.

So the bolded quote implies that if you cheer for a guy, you better be prepared to hire the guy? It would seem that favorable hires of former players would probably be some sort of recruiting violation anyways, so I guess we're screwed either way.

If you are making a racial argument with your "come in from the fields" comment", I would suggest that you take a look at the recent federal govt. case against UM, which resulted from UM wanting to maintain affirmative action. By the way, IMO, the strongest selection bias is for kids from high-priced private schools, but no one ever questions that.
Ann Arbor is the mansion and Detroit is the plantation.

thats a fucking stupid thing to say bukdow.

thats a fucking stupid thing to say bukdow.
Its nothing I agree with or support. It just seems UM gets kids in there to play football, shuffles them through a bullshit curriculum (if they even graduate), then completely washes their hands of them.

it sounds like you've spending too much time with al sharpton. ann arbor is the plantation that recruits kids from detroit and elsewhere, provides tutors, parking permits, and significant other advantages relative to other students. Allows the kids to play their sport in front of 100,000 +, attend all types of parties and probably get laid a lot. kids can choose to take difficult classes if they want to and are properly prepared. I am sure that UM administration does not want kids to flunk out of school and will suggest, even create easier classes. However, many scholarship football and basketball players probably don't have the desire to put a majority of their free time into studying anyways, so the alternative for many kids would be to just not attend universities, which isn't helping anyone. Personally, I think these kids should just get paid more for playing football or basketball so that we can get past the charade that these kids are getting quality educations. Honestly, if you have an issue with michigan and detroit kids, you should have an issue with college football/basketball in general or you're an idiot.

I would posit the bigger problem is a societal one that leaves most kids from Detroit public high schools woefully unprepared for college. UM has tutors and remedial classes, but a football player is almost certainly not going to graduate with a specialized degree in 4 years when starting with a detroit public high school education. That goes for any other university as well. I'll admit that bobby knight was probably better at ensuring that his kids actively participated in their education than carr or amaker, but he is the exception and not the norm. Finally, I believe a kid with 4 years of education at UM is almost certainly more employable than a kid with no college, so the 4-years is not a waste. The kid just shouldn't expect some cushy do-nothing job.

Here's what I want to know. Are there apparently other universities that go out of their way to find jobs for student-athletes after college when that "student" had no interest in academics and wasn't quite as good athletically as they thought?

Perhaps Harbaugh wants UM to invest in Mark Cuban's football league so these guys can either play or be broadcasters for the league.

UM tries to claim they have higher standards, but at the end of the day they are bringing in kids that couldn't come close to hanging in their classrooms with the other students and they are steering them toward joke classes just like every other University does. Every school does this, it's a joke.

Harbuagh is known to like the sauce.

He is just a bitter man who couldnt find a better job than Stanford. He has talked smack about everyone in the PAC10 and he took some shots at UM.

This is old news for the most part. He just keeps rumbling and bumbling.

UM tries to claim they have higher standards, but at the end of the day they are bringing in kids that couldn't come close to hanging in their classrooms with the other students and they are steering them toward joke classes just like every other University does. Every school does this, it's a joke.
Agreed. The disingenuous aspect of the story is that UM claims to be different. UM claims to be something it is not. They want to be viewed in the same light as Stanford, Northwestern, etc. but it just isn`t true. Hell, look at Cal-Berkeley, they have higher academic credentials than UM and they don`t try to blow smoke up peoples ass regarding their athletic teams. UM is just a sham.

Harbuagh is known to like the sauce.

Really? Isn't he really preachy?

I guess that wouldn't be the first time those things were combined, but I didn't picture him as a drunk.

Its not just Harbaugh.

"It's ridiculous. What a homer. I was at Michigan (as provost and dean of the school of dentistry). I know how they get in at Michigan. Don't talk to me about the Nobel laureates at Michigan."




J. Bernard Machen
President
University of Florida

So what about the kids UM doesn't recruit when they are scary talents but academic disasters? You know they're in at Floirda, Miami, and Florida State.

What about Trannon's cousin that was a UM hoops commit? (can't really remember his name, but I want to say Jaquan Hart) He verbally committed to UM but then failed to meet their admissions standards and was turned away.

By the way, I have no interest in be3ing arrogant about standards. I actually wish they had lower standards. I would have loved it if UM was an option for Charles Rogers. I say give everyone a shot if they have talent and can spell their name. If they can't spell their name, take them downtown and have it legally changed to something they CAN spell. There isn't an asterisk next to every championship won by acadmeic institutions that have laughable standards, so why not join in?

Yeah Harbaugh has been caught drinking and driving. Even though he plead the case down.

Here is a link from an article.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20051102/news_1s2usd.html

So what about the kids UM doesn't recruit when they are scary talents but academic disasters? You know they're in at Floirda, Miami, and Florida State.

What about Trannon's cousin that was a UM hoops commit? (can't really remember his name, but I want to say Jaquan Hart) He verbally committed to UM but then failed to meet their admissions standards and was turned away.
Hart was an academic train wreck. I don`t where he ended up if anywhere. As far as those who UM rejects ending up at UF, Miami, etc., I don`t know about that. The point is UM is just like everyother decent D-I program and nothing more. They are not Stanford, they are not Northwestern, they are not Duke. They are a football factory that brings kids in and handles them like cattle. Thats the reality. UM is not some academic stalwart when it comes to athletics. Sorry to burst your bubble, but its high time UM was viewed for what it is, a successful football program like all the other successful football programs, but nothing special.

Hart was an academic train wreck. I don`t where he ended up if anywhere. As far as those who UM rejects ending up at UF, Miami, etc., I don`t know about that. The point is UM is just like everyother decent D-I program and nothing more. They are not Stanford, they are not Northwestern, they are not Duke. They are a football factory that brings kids in and handles them like cattle. Thats the reality. UM is not some academic stalwart when it comes to athletics. Sorry to burst your bubble, but its high time UM was viewed for what it is, a successful football program like all the other successful football programs, but nothing special.

what the fuck do you know about reallity?

all im seeing from you is some bozo who has very little idea of what he is talking about but is looking to smear UM's name.

personally, based on this thread, your the last guy i'd look to to learn about the reallity of college sports, especially re: michigan athletics.

no shit, bukdow, you are coming off like an arrogant, holier than though, pompous prick. I don't think anyone here has went off on a tangent stating that academic standards are really non-existent if the player is good enough. THIS HAPPENS AT 99 PERCENT OF THE SCHOOLS IN THE NCAA! Slandering UM over and over because you have a green and white boner makes you look childish, and makes me not want to read another one of your posts. Fucking ignorant.

Seems to me that since a former player and a former high ranking administrator feel compelled to make statements concerning UM`s alleged high academic standards, there must be some issue taken with it.
Also,regarding this statement;

"I don't think anyone here has went off on a tangent stating that academic standards are really non-existent if the player is good enough."
-JickBoy34

I give you;

"By the way, I have no interest in be3ing arrogant about standards. I actually wish they had lower standards. I would have loved it if UM was an option for Charles Rogers."
-Jethro34

So, I believe there is a perception amongst many of the UM fans that UM operates at a higher level than other schools. Again, completely false.

Yes, I am talking about it. I can accept when State beats UM in a recruiting battle, as they did that season with Eric Knott. They had Smoker as a highly ranked commit as well. But I've long been told there's evidence that UM stopped recruiting Rogers because he wouldn't qualify for UM. If I'm wrong, fine, but show me the evidence.

Some kids who can get into UM cannot get into OSU and same with ND.

Every program is different but the same.

Every program take risk kids even Stanford.

This is a completely bogus arguement. How are we supposed to know what is going on behind the scenes and how well 17 year old kids are performing in the classroom and on standardized tests? We have no freaking clue how these kids are performing and if any rules are bent to admit them.

right, but way way way beyond that, its completely assinine to find some sort of parrallel between uofm/detroit and mansion/slave quarters.

sorry to stay on that, but that really pissed me off. these kids are given an unbelievable opportunity. they get a full ride to a great school. they get preferential treatment in every way imaginable thats legal such as first pick on all classes, tuitors, support networks, free food at the union, room, board, tuition etc, etc. no one prevents them for striving for the tougher majors, its just that its a fact that alot of the football players come from backgrounds that dont really prepare them for the curriculum.

but theres no reason why anyone shouldnt be able to graduate, though. its a university's job to open as many doors for you as possible. i've never heard it said that the school is supposed to find you its first job also (btw, the university has excellent student services that help you find a job if you take advantage of the offer. its available to all students, not just athletes.)

im not going to speculate on michigan relative to other schools, though last time i checked the michigan football team was graduating at a rate far higher than the national avg for football players or under grads in general.

in short, this is one of those "are you kidding me?!?" threads.

right, but way way way beyond that, its completely assinine to find some sort of parrallel between uofm/detroit and mansion/slave quarters.

sorry to stay on that, but that really pissed me off. these kids are given an unbelievable opportunity. they get a full ride to a great school. they get preferential treatment in every way imaginable thats legal such as first pick on all classes, tuitors, support networks, free food at the union, room, board, tuition etc, etc. no one prevents them for striving for the tougher majors, its just that its a fact that alot of the football players come from backgrounds that dont really prepare them for the curriculum.

but theres no reason why anyone shouldnt be able to graduate, though. its a university's job to open as many doors for you as possible. i've never heard it said that the school is supposed to find you its first job also (btw, the university has excellent student services that help you find a job if you take advantage of the offer. its available to all students, not just athletes.)

im not going to speculate on michigan relative to other schools, though last time i checked the michigan football team was graduating at a rate far higher than the national avg for football players or under grads in general.

in short, this is one of those "are you kidding me?!?" threads.


Doesn`t look that great to me. The first column is black players. The second column is white players.

Top 25 Black Football White Football
Players Graduation % Players Graduation %

1 UNIV. OF S. CAL. 61% 60%
2 LOUISIANA STATE U. 34% 56%
3 UNIV. OF OKLA. 28% 41%
4 UNIV. OF MICHIGAN 36% 58%
5 UTEXAS-AUSTIN 33% 45%
6 UTENN-KNOXVILLE 26% 78%
7 OHIO STATE UNIV. 28% 58%
8 KANSAS STATE UNIV. 52% 64%
9 FLORIDA STATE UNIV. 43% 65%
10 UNIV. OF MIAMI 47% 57%
11 UNIV. OF GEORGIA 51% 86%
12 PURDUE UNIV. 53% 63%
13 UNIV. OF IOWA 45% 62%
14 MIAMI UNIV. (OHIO) 25% 70%
15 WASH. STATE UNIV. 47% 71%
16 UNIV. OF MISS. 52% 53%
17 UNIV. OF FLA. 44% 38%
18 BOISE STATE UNIV. 57% 47%
19 TEXAS CHRISTIAN U. 50% 61%
20 W.VIRGINIA UNIV. 36% 58%
21 OKLAHOMA STATE 32% 52%
22 UNEB.-LINCOLN 41% 69%
23 UMD-COLLEGE PARK 38% 71%
24 UMINN-TWIN CITIES 31% 58%
25 UNIV. OF UTAH 42% ***

If that's a Utah joke, its in the wrong column.

What is that the top 25 of? Preseason top 25 based on performance on the field?
It can't be, seeing as some of those teams don't belong there and some others are conspicuously missing. Perhaps a link would help.

What is that the top 25 of? Preseason top 25 based on performance on the field?
It can't be, seeing as some of those teams don't belong there and some others are conspicuously missing. Perhaps a link would help.

I don`t see what difference it makes. The numbers are the numbers. Albeit different numbers than what the UM hype machine would have you believe. Nonetheless, here is the link
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0DXK/is_23_20/ai_112409398

I could really care less about this argument, but here's my two sense. All Universities bend the rules for athletes. Michigan is absolutely no exception. The point that I think bukdow is trying to make is that it is ridiculous when UM fans try to claim that they hold their athletes to higher standards. I've been hearing all my life about how Michigan holds their athletes to higher standards. Sure they do (sarcasm). If they'll allow Marlon Jackson and Bernard Robinson to be team captains after being arrested on aggravated assault and sexual assault charges, I'm sure they're willing to bend some academic rules. The other completely ridiculous statement often made is that Michigan could have had a recruit (Rogers), but he couldn't make it academically. Prove it. That's a bullshit excuse for not landing a kid. Slocum?

I'm glad the link is there now, because you obviously overlooked some other important percentages there. Hopefully everyone can go and see the whole story, based on numbers that are 3 1/2 years old. You'll see that at the time, while the football numbers looked less than outstanding, the school as a whole graduated a higher percentage of student athletes than any other school on the list.

By the way, I really love how this always gravitates toward race.
Are we to believe there are more black kids who don't know how to study than there are white kids who don't know how to study? It's interesting that more often than not, people that just so happen to be black are in a round about way calling black people dumb and blaming white people. Last I checked, every student that came through my class had the exact same opportunity in there. Racism is a funny thing, since it's implied the majority race is the one that's most racist, when I generally see it being more prominant amongst minorities. Different debate, different thread, sorry to bring it up. All I know is I don't give a crap whether a kid is white, black, tan, male, female, pretty, ugly as sin, tall, short, skinny, chubby, etc. I differentiate my teaching to give opportunities to everyone in the room and I care about every single one finding success. (excuse my rant if it put you to sleep)

First of all, it's two CENTS, not two sense. You're killing the white graduation rate! (hopefully you get that I'm totally killing and mocking parts of this thread)

Second, don't pretend like you're the first person to mention Slocum. I mentioned him early on and said there were inconsistencies and I didn't know or understand what all goes on. As for Rogers, looks like I said prove it, then you said prove it, but nobody has any proof to offer. Bottom line - nobody but Charles and UM officials really knows what happened, and it's not likely anyone is willing to trust either, so we'll never know.

What do you want to know about Slocum?

He worked his ass off to get into UM. He needs to pass 1 summer class and he will be on the team this fall.

He is what every player, who got in trouble in school should be, no matter their color should strive to be. Pesistent and making amends for his poor school work his first 2 years in HS.

People pick out the parts of the article that represents their argument in the best possible light.

Those numbers didn't look right to me, so I went to the NCAA site to get the numbers for big 10 footballs teams.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/!ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLN4j3CQXJgFjGpvqRqC KOcAFfj_zcVH1v_QD9gtzQiHJHRUUAc0tpTA!!/delta/base64xml/L3dJdyEvUUd3QndNQSEvNElVRS82XzBfTFU!?CONTENT_URL=h ttp://www2.ncaa.org/portal/academics_and_athletes/education_and_research/academic_reform/grad_rate/2006/d1_school_grad_rate_data.html

You have to look at each team individually, so I copied down the results. Michigan is third, behind Northwestern and Penn State.

So where does MSU rank? Fighting with Minnesota for last place and about 25% worse than Michigan.

Note that the columns are arranged as 1) previous 4-year average federal rate, and 2) GSR- NCAA formula to account for students that leave the university in good standing.

Unfortunately for UM, the black graduation rate is less impressive than the overall rate and should be higher. As a side note, when I was a freshman at UM, Biakabutuka and another football player shared a dorm room in the same area as a friend of mine. So I am pretty sure that Biakabutuka didn't get the reggie bush/chris webber treatment in AA. I met Biakabutuka's roommate once when we were both waiting for other people. His name was Brent something and I don't remember him playing much. Anyways, he was black and I remember asking him how he liked UM and he said that he was having fun. I didn't ask him if he felt like a slave, but it was implied that he did not.

Michigan
(fed rate) (GSR)
63 71

Michigan State
39 45

Indiana
57 71

Illinois
53 67

Iowa
56 65

Penn state
76 80

Ohio state
58 60

Wisconsin
51 62

Northwestern
79 91

Purdue
56 68

Minnesota
44 44

I can certainly attest to kids turning around academically. Look at me as an example.

During HS I could care less about academics. Although I attended a gifted and talented elementary (with inner-city kids of all ethnicities that were bussed in from some of the poorest areas of Saginaw County at no cost to their parents) I ended up at a white, middle class high school and blew off many classes. All this while not working any job and not participating in any sports. So I had plenty of time for school work, I just didn't want to do it. I took 4 years of choir, 2 years of art, 1 year of PE and the bare minimum in math and science. In spite of an easy schedule, I only had a 2.7 GPA. (would have been closer to 2.0 or worse had I taken more math and science instead of choir). I only took the ACT once because I wasn't interested and I got a 23, evidence that the potential was there but the work ethic was not. Many of these kids don't have the potential, and maybe they have the work ethic, maybe they don't. They certainly spend more time studying plays than I ever spent studying algebra.
So my college choices were limited, but I took college seriously and between the University of Utah and Saginaw Valley State I graduated near the top of my class, though I took my time doing it. I'm enrolling in a master's program soon and will likely end up with a Doctorate degree as well.

Bottom line - if I had been judged strictly on my high school record and whether or not I had a degree within the first 4-5 years following high school, I would be considerred a poor student. Yet I managed to outperform 95% of my classmates in college. Tell Harbaugh to stick that up his cornhole and play back tapes of him blowing a season and handing a NC to freaking BYU compliments of bending over for them in the 1984 Holiday Bowl. Nice work, Jim.

I'm glad the link is there now, because you obviously overlooked some other important percentages there. Hopefully everyone can go and see the whole story, based on numbers that are 3 1/2 years old. You'll see that at the time, while the football numbers looked less than outstanding, the school as a whole graduated a higher percentage of student athletes than any other school on the list.

By the way, I really love how this always gravitates toward race.
Are we to believe there are more black kids who don't know how to study than there are white kids who don't know how to study? It's interesting that more often than not, people that just so happen to be black are in a round about way calling black people dumb and blaming white people. Last I checked, every student that came through my class had the exact same opportunity in there. Racism is a funny thing, since it's implied the majority race is the one that's most racist, when I generally see it being more prominant amongst minorities. Different debate, different thread, sorry to bring it up. All I know is I don't give a crap whether a kid is white, black, tan, male, female, pretty, ugly as sin, tall, short, skinny, chubby, etc. I differentiate my teaching to give opportunities to everyone in the room and I care about every single one finding success. (excuse my rant if it put you to sleep)


This point assumes that all classrooms are the same. If you go to a classroom in Detroit (predominantly black), it is a much different than going to a classroom in Birmingham or Monroe (predominantly white). If you take a black kid from a suburb, there is no reason not to hold him/her to the same standards as white kids from the suburbs. However, it would be silly to assume that a black kid in Detroit has had the same educational experience as a white kid in a better school district. I've done some tutoring in Detroit schools, and I can tell you that Detroit schools generally suck. Classes are too big and teachers are undersupplied, burned out, and often don't show up. I also lived in Detroit for a year after college, but I had to move because I was tired to getting robbed (and I lived near Wayne State, which is pretty nice for Detroit). It was fine for me to live there as a young guy, but I shudder to think of trying to raise kids there.

I can't understand people talking about these kids like they're slaves. Horrible analogy.
Were they kidnapped from their native land against their will and sold to the highest bidder?
No, they make they choice to sign a LOI and in return for their efforts are given the OPPORTUNITY to gain a world class education. If they take advantage of it, excellent.
They are highly encouraged to do just that, and obviously that encouragement is somewhat successful, but if they take it for granted that's their choice. I would say they are much better off than they would be had they not been given a free education. What is their alternative? Tell me about that and then tell me why it's justified to rip UM here.

Is UM ELITE (everyone's favorite word here) among universities in terms of the standards for athletes to get in? I don't know and I don't care. They seem to do ok. They certainly aren't anywhere near the worst, but obviously not the best. That's fine. They're giving great kids every opportunity and the ones that don't take it can STFU because they're the ones that blew it. My alma mater had no obligation to employ me upon completion of my degree, yet you don't hear me - or the other thousands in the same boat - crying about it or comparing ourselves to a group of people that were wronged FAR worse in history.

This point assumes that all classrooms are the same. If you go to a classroom in Detroit (predominantly black), it is a much different than going to a classroom in Birmingham or Monroe (predominantly white). If you take a black kid from a suburb, there is no reason not to hold him/her to the same standards as white kids from the suburbs. However, it would be silly to assume that a black kid in Detroit has had the same educational experience as a white kid in a better school district. I've done some tutoring in Detroit schools, and I can tell you that Detroit schools generally suck. Classes are too big and teachers are undersupplied, burned out, and often don't show up. I also lived in Detroit for a year after college, but I had to move because I was tired to getting robbed (and I lived near Wayne State, which is pretty nice for Detroit). It was fine for me to live there as a young guy, but I shudder to think of trying to raise kids there.

Classrooms in my predominantly black school are horrible compared to schools outside the city. The technology is old or non-existant, the tables and chairs are broken mix-matches and the place makes Crisler Arena look bright and beautiful. That being said, any student that wants to take the opportunity seriously is capable of achieving just as much as those in the schools on the other end of the county. Problem is, for whatever reason, many fewer students choose not to take the oppotunity. Their parents haven't experienced success or expected it from them, so they continue the trend. The fact that the schools are run down simply gives them less to be excited about. Don't blame the schools, though, for not reversing it. Meanwhile, I think we're way off track from the original argument, which I willingly share the blame for.

Classrooms in my predominantly black school are horrible compared to schools outside the city. The technology is old or non-existant, the tables and chairs are broken mix-matches and the place makes Crisler Arena look bright and beautiful. That being said, any student that wants to take the opportunity seriously is capable of achieving just as much as those in the schools on the other end of the county. Problem is, for whatever reason, many fewer students choose not to take the oppotunity. Their parents haven't experienced success or expected it from them, so they continue the trend. The fact that the schools are run down simply gives them less to be excited about. Don't blame the schools, though, for not reversing it. Meanwhile, I think we're way off track from the original argument, which I willingly share the blame for.

While the problems of inner-city youth are obviously multi-determined by family, neighborhood, schools, etc., my point is that it should not come as a surprise that an average student from a poor school district would struggle to get through UM, especially considering the time commitment for football in the fall semester. Further, if school A has an average ACT score of 27 and school B has an average score of 17, I would say that kids from school B have a significant disadvantage by the time they start college. I don't think that you can honestly say kids in school B have the same opportunities as kids in school A, but that school B kids just choose to be lazy. Rather, there are significantly larger societal hurdles for poor kids to overcome. I would guess that problems start at home and in the neighborhood, but continue through lower standards and less effective schooling. It is not impossible to succeed, but it sure is a lot harder than for the average upper middle class michigan student.


That said, I am sure that kids are better off going to michigan to play football than if they were excluded because of poor test scores. I just think the school should make a special effort to make sure that these kids show up to whatever classes they are enrolled in, work with tutors to catch up, and generally make the most of educational opportunities. Of course, it has to be a 2-way street and the university can't really force kids to graduate if they aren't working at all.

Incidentally, I also think that Detroit is an especially difficult place to grow up, even among inner cities. I have lived in Queens and in Oakland and I never really had a problem, but while in Detroit, I was mugged twice, just about everyone I've known has had their cars broken into, a couple of my neighbors had their houses broken into. I had to help pull an unconscious guy to the curb after he had been robbed and knocked out in the MIDDLE OF WOODWARD AVE on a sunday afternoon. Another friend of mine saw people breaking into her neighbor's house, called the police, and the police showed up 4 hours later and were pissed that my friend had the nerve to call 911 a second time. 12 year old kids sell drugs in the street. People honk their horn to let you know that they're going to run red lights. Getting back to the schools, it is not terribly uncommon for Detroit schools to rely on substitute teachers to cover for unfilled teaching slots for entire class years. Normally, I hold people accountable for their actions, but I would seriously doubt that I could successfully raise a kid there.

this thread is so far out there now...wow

First of all, it's two CENTS, not two sense.

Thanks for the correction. It's called a typo and if you want to go into edit mode you can run rampant all over mbs everywhere.

this thread is so far out there now...wow

agreed, i can't even read this anymore

agreed, i can't even read this anymore

Here's the cliff's notes version:

1. UM is third in the big 10 in graduation rates
2. state is dead last and 25% worse.
3. it's time for you and budkow to stop crying about it.

Here's the cliff's notes version:

1. UM is third in the big 10 in graduation rates
2. state is dead last and 25% worse.
3. it's time for you and budkow to stop crying about it.

Well with your very own Jimmy H's comments it is no wonder. I'd graduate all kinds of players if I floated them in and out of sports information joke classes. So fuck off with your high and mighty bs. Your own former players are calling out your university. I don't hear any former Spartans calling out State. Graduation rates would back what is being said, Michigan breezes them through. Lack of graduating players would prove a University isn't floating them through dumbass.

Well with your very own Jimmy H's comments it is no wonder. I'd graduate all kinds of players if I floated them in and out of sports information joke classes. So fuck off with your high and mighty bs. Your own former players are calling out your university. I don't hear any former Spartans calling out State. Graduation rates would back what is being said, Michigan breezes them through. Lack of graduating players would prove a University isn't floating them through dumbass.


1. I think it is hillarious that you criticize me for riding the high horse, when this entire thread has been a slam at michigan and included a claim that michigan football is the moral equivalent to slavery (a claim you never questioned)

2. I think it is funny that supposed low graduate rates at michigan show that UM doesn't care about it athletes, but embarassingly low (worst in big 10) graduation rates at msu means they really care about academics and won't float through football players. You guys need to choose a position and stick to it.

3. I looked at the msu football media guide and the most common majors are kinesiology and sociology. stanton is such a good student that he wants to go on for a masters of kinesiology. (Maybe he wants to understand why he is always injured?) Do you really believe kinesiology at msu is more difficult than sports management at michigan?

4. Do you really think msu's juco all-stars are held to high academic standards?

5. With the exception of top shelf tech schools like MIT and Cal tech, all schools have a range of difficulty by major. Ivy league schools have departments for the children of wealthy donors. Big 10 schools have depts. for athletes. As I wrote in my more nuanced post, you're not going to pull an average student from Detroit's public schools and put them through an UM engineering program in 4 years, especially while they spend half their time playing football. Honestly, I'd take a sports management degree over a kinesiology degree from msu. (of course, more than half of msu football players can't even pull a kinesiology degree.)

6. You calling me a dumbass is about as damaging to my self esteem as Paris Hilton calling me a dumbass, actually I would probably feel worse if I heard it from Paris.

7. I agree that robinson should have been booted off the team, but amaker was a douche. Speaking of sexual assault, how is that guy who raped the 13 year old doing at msu? didn't um drop him from their recruiting? Does he still hang with smoker, rogers, and the crew?

edit 8. stop crying.. it is embarassing

this thread is so far out there now...wow

This thread was bullshit from the start.
Of course, it was started by a Sparty Cunt with nothing better to do than bring up the old Sparty Cheer of "All Michigan Fans Think They're Better Than The Rest of Us" (Use your best whiney voice while reading that).
bukdow cannot possibly be that fucking stupid. Oh wait, he's demonstrated that he IS that fucking stupid. So I'll explain. Every college football fan thinks his team is better than everybody else, on the surface. Underneath, we ALL fucking know good ol' State U is about winning football games.
Why these Sparty Cunts insist on carrying their inferiority complexes around from forum to forum to ask the same dumbass lame questions at every stop on the intranet is beyond me, and why they get so much play is beyond me.
Get over yourselves, beeyotches, as xanadu says, you are embarrassing even for a Sparty.

By the way, Kinesiology is often where you need to go if you want to become a sports broadcaster. I was looking inot it at UM back in the day, and that's the school they had me apply to. Incidentally, it's not easy to get in there if you aren't affiliated with the athletic department somehow. Take that for what it's worth. You could say they're joke classes and reserved for athletes, or you could say it's the school protecting their athletes from outside competition, all depending on which sping you want to put on the argument.

You could also go into communications and major in "broadcasting".

Is it relevant to mention that last year UM spent $12 million to open a state-of-the-art 38,000 sq ft academic center specifically for their student athletes?
Sure sounds like they're leaving their players in the cotton fields to die. Morons.

You could also go into communications and major in "broadcasting".

True, at most schools, and you would get a very general broadcasting education. However, if it's specifically sports broadcasting, UM would have you go through the kinesiology program. It's much more sports specific, and qualifies you for different careers in sports in the event that you don't get the broadcasting job. Meanwhile, the broadcasting degree prepares you for other careers in broadcasting in the event that you don't get one in sports. Guys that go through kinesiology are saying that if they don't get what they want, they would rather do something else in sports as opposed to running the board at an oldies station or doing weather.

This is just a little taste of what was said about Hart at the Big 10 Media Day.

Hart owning it up.

Hart -- said he evidently wanted to be a U-M coach but wasn't picked and now he's sour grapes ... but his elite Stanford team isn't too upper crust to take a U-M transfer (Forcier).

3. I looked at the msu football media guide and the most common majors are kinesiology and sociology. stanton is such a good student that he wants to go on for a masters of kinesiology. (Maybe he wants to understand why he is always injured?) Do you really believe kinesiology at msu is more difficult than sports management at michigan?


Thanks for the 8 paragraphs. Once again, I could really care less about this subject. But, your kinesiology comment just begged for a reply. Do you know anything about kinesiology? Obviously not. Do you know how much is involved in this subject area? Do you have any clue how difficult the anatomy classes in this field are alone? I know people that have went into this field and you obviously have no clue comparing it to sports management. You might want to do a little research on a subject if you have no clue about it, because for those that know, you just came off like a dumbass.

This thread was bullshit from the start.
Of course, it was started by a Sparty Cunt with nothing better to do than bring up the old Sparty Cheer of "All Michigan Fans Think They're Better Than The Rest of Us" (Use your best whiney voice while reading that).
bukdow cannot possibly be that fucking stupid. Oh wait, he's demonstrated that he IS that fucking stupid. So I'll explain. Every college football fan thinks his team is better than everybody else, on the surface. Underneath, we ALL fucking know good ol' State U is about winning football games.
Why these Sparty Cunts insist on carrying their inferiority complexes around from forum to forum to ask the same dumbass lame questions at every stop on the intranet is beyond me, and why they get so much play is beyond me.
Get over yourselves, beeyotches, as xanadu says, you are embarrassing even for a Sparty.
You are a fan, loser. You never attended the university, if any. Zippy, let me assure of one thing, you and the rest of your UM bootlicks have nothing, and I mean nothing, on anyone who is an alumni of a university. You are a slack-jawed half-wit trying to attach himself to something that is viewed favorably so you can perhaps gain vicariously. Don`t fool yourself, you are very transparent and a joke to boot.

I'm glad the link is there now, because you obviously overlooked some other important percentages there. Hopefully everyone can go and see the whole story, based on numbers that are 3 1/2 years old. You'll see that at the time, while the football numbers looked less than outstanding, the school as a whole graduated a higher percentage of student athletes than any other school on the list.
By the way, I really love how this always gravitates toward race.
Are we to believe there are more black kids who don't know how to study than there are white kids who don't know how to study? It's interesting that more often than not, people that just so happen to be black are in a round about way calling black people dumb and blaming white people. Last I checked, every student that came through my class had the exact same opportunity in there. Racism is a funny thing, since it's implied the majority race is the one that's most racist, when I generally see it being more prominant amongst minorities. Different debate, different thread, sorry to bring it up. All I know is I don't give a crap whether a kid is white, black, tan, male, female, pretty, ugly as sin, tall, short, skinny, chubby, etc. I differentiate my teaching to give opportunities to everyone in the room and I care about every single one finding success. (excuse my rant if it put you to sleep)
Everyone except black football players. Come on in, kid. Don`t forget, you are lucky to be here and when we have no more use for you, you are on your own. Don`t call us, we`ll call you.

Thanks for the 8 paragraphs. Once again, I could really care less about this subject. But, your kinesiology comment just begged for a reply. Do you know anything about kinesiology? Obviously not. Do you know how much is involved in this subject area? Do you have any clue how difficult the anatomy classes in this field are alone? I know people that have went into this field and you obviously have no clue comparing it to sports management. You might want to do a little research on a subject if you have no clue about it, because for those that know, you just came off like a dumbass.

Many schools use kinesiology as a large umbrella. As I mentioned, sports broadcasting fell under that umbrella at UM a decade ago. Not sure that it still does, but it did then. If you go the sports medicine route with it, it can be very difficult and intense. However, that's not necessarily true of everyone under that umbrella.

Also, those comments aren't directed at MSU but all schools who meet that description. Personally, I have no idea if it's the same at MSU as it was at UM. However, I don't want people to assume that just because some guys can't even spell their major that all of a sudden it's extremely academically challenging.

Everyone except black football players. Come on in, kid. Don`t forget, you are lucky to be here and when we have no more use for you, you are on your own. Don`t call us, we`ll call you.

Still ignoring the work they have done with the Ross Academic Center for student-athletes that is far more recent that your study. I'll have to call to make sure, but I'm guessing they encourage all the student athletes to take advantage of that resource and I've seen pictures of black students inside the building, so apparently they're allowed in there. Shocking that they would do that, don'tcha think?

Still ignoring the work they have done with the Ross Academic Center for student-athletes that is far more recent that your study. I'll have to call to make sure, but I'm guessing they encourage all the student athletes to take advantage of that resource and I've seen pictures of black students inside the building, so apparently they're allowed in there. Shocking that they would do that, don'tcha think?
MSU has had the Clara Bell Smith center for about 10 years now. Glad to see UM is finally catching up. Back to my original point, UM (specifically the football program) tries to act like they occupy rarified academic air with the likes of Stanford, Northwestern, Duke, etc. This is completely false.

I agree with your last two lines. If that's all this is about, and I think it is, we have no problem.

Half the other stuff, however, is way off. They are not in the rarified air and should be criticized for claiming otherwise. They are, however, well above average. Would you agree?

I agree with your last two lines. If that's all this is about, and I think it is, we have no problem.

Half the other stuff, however, is way off. They are not in the rarified air and should be criticized for claiming otherwise. They are, however, well above average. Would you agree?
No, they are not above average. Florida State has a higher graduation rate for black football players than UM. So does Miami FL. So does many other programs. I would say UM`s graduation rate for black football players (36% as of 2004) is average at best. I realize that is from 2004, but I see no reason why there would be a huge increase.

That study was based on the percentage of black football players in the 4 freshman classes had done. So it's based one what, HS graduating classes from 97-00? 96-99 if it considered redshirts and allowed a for 5th year for graduation, which most schools are saying is the new average.

So you can't see any reason why there could possibly be an increase? Let's say the average recruiting class is about 22-23 players. What percentage do you want to say are black? 7 of Michigans current 13 commits are black, so we'll say just over half. So 12 kids per year for 4 years. These numbers are based on fewer than 50 UM students. You really want to use that as the sole backbone of your argument? Statisticians would shred that.

That study was based on the percentage of black football players in the 4 freshman classes had done. So it's based one what, HS graduating classes from 97-00? 96-99 if it considered redshirts and allowed a for 5th year for graduation, which most schools are saying is the new average.

So you can't see any reason why there could possibly be an increase? Let's say the average recruiting class is about 22-23 players. What percentage do you want to say are black? 7 of Michigans current 13 commits are black, so we'll say just over half. So 12 kids per year for 4 years. These numbers are based on fewer than 50 UM students. You really want to use that as the sole backbone of your argument? Statisticians would shred that.
For Christ`s sake! All of the schools were judged against the same criteria and UM was found lacking. Statistics my ass. All of the schools had very comparable percentage of incoming freshmen that were black. There is no crowned field, there is no clock conspiracy, UM was measured against other universities using the same criteria and it was average at best. Just deal with it.

He's saying it was one year which may or may not be indicative of the annual trend (since you haven't shown that).

He's saying it was one year which may or may not be indicative of the annual trend (since you haven't shown that).
Again, UM average, at best.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/06/college_footballs_winners_and_losers/

Thanks for the 8 paragraphs. Once again, I could really care less about this subject. But, your kinesiology comment just begged for a reply. Do you know anything about kinesiology? Obviously not. Do you know how much is involved in this subject area? Do you have any clue how difficult the anatomy classes in this field are alone? I know people that have went into this field and you obviously have no clue comparing it to sports management. You might want to do a little research on a subject if you have no clue about it, because for those that know, you just came off like a dumbass.

1. Uh oh, i wrote 8 paragraphs, some of which were less than a line. i thought using bullet points would make it easier for you. i guess that is still too taxing.

2. Oh my God, there is an anatomy course involved in the study of muscle function. I would never have guessed that. Thanks for filling me in. Honestly, you come across as borderline retarded sometimes.

3. I have known people in the kinesiology depts. at msu and um. Both said coursework was not very difficult. One wanted to be a PE teacher and one wanted to be a sports doctor. According to the pre-med guy, the pre-med classes were infinitely more difficult than the kinesiology classes. I don't have any problem with kinesiology or the fact that athletes major in kinesiology or sports management. I am sure many are interested in those subjects. It is just not particularly difficult. In fact, I pasted the requirements for the "coaching specialization" from msu. So kinesiology expert, which is more difficult: Principles of Coaching I or Principles of Coaching II?

4. Which michigan fan in this thread has said that michigan has the same standards as notre dame, stanford, etc? Those schools have higher standards. I am especially impressed by notre dame's commitment. The two strongest comments were michigan better than most ( a fairly low bar) and that UM will not scrape the absolute bottom of the barrel? You and budkow need to adjust your panties and stop with the histrionics.

5. Your inability to acknowlege MSU's recent history of low graduation rates, student riots, knott, smoker, rogers, etc. provides little room for you to preach down to us. Everyone and their brother knew smoker was coked out (pre-rehab), but msu continued to trot him out to play. If you were a notre dame fan, I could understand. As sparty fans, your condemnations ring hollow.

Coaching
Specialization
The coaching specialization is designed to provide students with knowledge, skills, and experiences that will enable them to coach effectively and safely in school, youth, and adult sports programs. Specific educational objectives include:

Knowledge and understanding of the growth and development of athletes
Knowledge and understanding of the medical, legal, psychological, social, biological, physical, theoretical, and technical aspects of coaching
Practical experience in coaching

Students who complete the specialization will be eligible to take the examination for certification as a Program for Athletic Coaches’ Education (PACE) Coach. The PACE program is administered jointly by MSU's Institute for the Study of Youth Sports and the Michigan High School Athletic Association.

Facts About the Specialization
The coaching specialization offered by the Department of Kinesiology is available to students enrolled in any bachelor's degree program at MSU. Participation by students from many disciplines is welcomed.
Students who are majoring in kinesiology complete the specialization requirements as part of the exercise science program option for the bachelor of science degree.
Students who are majoring in other fields of study complete the coaching specialization requirements posted here as well as the degree requirements associated with their major. With the approval of the department and college that administer the student's degree program, courses that are used to satisfy the requirements for the specialization may also be used to satisfy the requirements for the bachelor's degree.

Admission Procedures
There are no formal admission procedures for the coaching specialization.

Course Requirements
The student must complete all of the following courses (19 credits):

Courses
Cr
Title

KIN 125 3 First Aid and Personal Safety
KIN 260 3 Physical Growth and Motor Behavior
KIN 340 3 Psychological Bases of Physical Activity
KIN 400 4 Principles of Coaching I
KIN 401 4 Principles of Coaching II
KIN 494 2 Fieldwork

The student must also complete one of the following courses (2 credits):

Courses
Cr
Title

KIN 300A 2 Coaching Baseball
KIN 300C 2 Coaching Soccer
KIN 300D 2 Coaching Basketball
KIN 300E 2 Coaching Football
KIN 300K 2 Coaching Track and Field
KIN 490 2 Independent Study - the content of KIN 490 must focus on coaching and a KIN advisor must approve in writing the content of this course before the student enrolls.

xanadu doesn't mess around.

Welcome to the fray, x.

While the article was more recent, it still covered the years from 96-00, only giving the players longer to graduate. It shows a 50% graduation rate, up from the 34% you had mentioned. Yet you don't seem to think any marked improvement can be made. It also showed a 91% graduation rate for white players, which is among the best shown.

This debate is about academic standards. Because a guy doesn't graduate, you don't think they should have gotten in - and letting them in was a mistake?

That's like saying anyone who doesn't own a Ford Truck shouldn't have a driver's license. It's mildly representative of the argument at best.

Race should not have anything to do with it.

Finally, since it must and guys are given 6 years to graduate, consider this. If I'm a black ahtlete and I spend 3-5 years at a school before moving on to professional sports, the academic standards of the institution aren't likely to infuence whether or not I complete my degree program. Do you want to start asking whether more white or black players get drafted? Damn, why does it alsways have to end up being racial?
2000 2 40 Ian Gold OLB Denver
2000 4 110 Aaron Shea TE Cleveland
2000 4 122 Josh Williams DT Indianapolis
2000 6 177 Dhani Jones OLB N.Y. Giants
2000 6 199 Tom Brady QB New England
2000 7 235 Rob Renes DT Indianapolis
2001 1 8 David Terrell WR Chicago
2001 1 17 Steve Hutchinson G Seattle
2001 1 18 Jeff Backus T Detroit
2001 2 38 Anthony Thomas RB Chicago
2001 2 43 Maurice Williams T Jacksonville
2002 3 86 Marquise Walker WR Tampa Bay
2002 4 128 Larry Foote ILB Pittsburgh
2002 5 154 Jonathan Goodwin C N.Y. Jets
2002 7 247 Hayden Epstein K Jacksonville
2003 2 41 Bennie Joppru TE Houston
2003 2 53 Victor Hobson OLB N.Y. Jets
2003 3 85 B.J. Askew FB N.Y. Jets
2003 6 192 Drew Henson QB Houston
2003 6 198 Cato June OLB Indianapolis
2003 7 240 Charles Drake DB N.Y. Giants
2004 1 26 Chris Perry RB Cincinnati
2004 3 85 Jeremy LeSueur DB Denver
2004 7 202 John Navarre QB Arizona
2004 7 221 Tony Pape T Miami
2005 1 3 Braylon Edwards WR Cleveland
2005 1 29 Marlin Jackson CB Indianapolis
2005 2 33 David Baas G San Francisco
2006 4 107 Gabe Watson NT Arizona
2006 4 109 Jason Avant WR Philadelphia
2006 7 244 Tim Massaquoi TE Tampa Bay

Are you expecting all of those guys to have their degree, even though they were drafted? What about guys that left early but weren't drafted, only to sign as UDFA's when they got bad advise from agents? Guys like Shontee Orr and Ernest Shazor?

Do the research on how many of those 50 or so players got their degrees, then come back and tell me it was a bad idea to admit them and it tarnishes UM's standards.

While the article was more recent, it still covered the years from 96-00, only giving the players longer to graduate. It shows a 50% graduation rate, up from the 34% you had mentioned. Yet you don't seem to think any marked improvement can be made. It also showed a 91% graduation rate for white players, which is among the best shown.

This debate is about academic standards. Because a guy doesn't graduate, you don't think they should have gotten in - and letting them in was a mistake?

That's like saying anyone who doesn't own a Ford Truck shouldn't have a driver's license. It's mildly representative of the argument at best.

Race should not have anything to do with it.

Finally, since it must and guys are given 6 years to graduate, consider this. If I'm a black ahtlete and I spend 3-5 years at a school before moving on to professional sports, the academic standards of the institution aren't likely to infuence whether or not I complete my degree program. Do you want to start asking whether more white or black players get drafted? Damn, why does it alsways have to end up being racial?
2000 2 40 Ian Gold OLB Denver
2000 4 110 Aaron Shea TE Cleveland
2000 4 122 Josh Williams DT Indianapolis
2000 6 177 Dhani Jones OLB N.Y. Giants
2000 6 199 Tom Brady QB New England
2000 7 235 Rob Renes DT Indianapolis
2001 1 8 David Terrell WR Chicago
2001 1 17 Steve Hutchinson G Seattle
2001 1 18 Jeff Backus T Detroit
2001 2 38 Anthony Thomas RB Chicago
2001 2 43 Maurice Williams T Jacksonville
2002 3 86 Marquise Walker WR Tampa Bay
2002 4 128 Larry Foote ILB Pittsburgh
2002 5 154 Jonathan Goodwin C N.Y. Jets
2002 7 247 Hayden Epstein K Jacksonville
2003 2 41 Bennie Joppru TE Houston
2003 2 53 Victor Hobson OLB N.Y. Jets
2003 3 85 B.J. Askew FB N.Y. Jets
2003 6 192 Drew Henson QB Houston
2003 6 198 Cato June OLB Indianapolis
2003 7 240 Charles Drake DB N.Y. Giants
2004 1 26 Chris Perry RB Cincinnati
2004 3 85 Jeremy LeSueur DB Denver
2004 7 202 John Navarre QB Arizona
2004 7 221 Tony Pape T Miami
2005 1 3 Braylon Edwards WR Cleveland
2005 1 29 Marlin Jackson CB Indianapolis
2005 2 33 David Baas G San Francisco
2006 4 107 Gabe Watson NT Arizona
2006 4 109 Jason Avant WR Philadelphia
2006 7 244 Tim Massaquoi TE Tampa Bay

Are you expecting all of those guys to have their degree, even though they were drafted? What about guys that left early but weren't drafted, only to sign as UDFA's when they got bad advise from agents? Guys like Shontee Orr and Ernest Shazor?

Do the research on how many of those 50 or so players got their degrees, then come back and tell me it was a bad idea to admit them and it tarnishes UM's standards.
Again, back to my point, UM`s graduation rate of black players is average at best. You can spin it, you can twist it, you can do whatever you want, the truth is that UM`s graduation rate of black players is average, at best.

This is why the college forum is so fucking useless. Why make the issue about spin when you could reply with, "While that might be a valid point in regards to comparing UM to other schools, a school that wants to be regarded as highly as Michigan does in academics should make it a priority for even its drafted athletes to get degrees. These are still students who didn't graduate, most of whom had plenty of time to and should have been encouraged to more so then they were."

This is why the college forum is so fucking useless. Why make the issue about spin when you could reply with, "While that might be a valid point in regards to comparing UM to other schools, a school that wants to be regarded as highly as Michigan does in academics should make it a priority for even its drafted athletes to get degrees. These are still students who didn't graduate, most of whom had plenty of time to and should have been encouraged to more so then they were."
OK, how about this, the fact that there is a 41% disparity between the graduation rates of white football players and black football players, UM should start addressing the problem rather than trying to convince everyone that the program only accepts top flight scholar atheletes.

OK, how about this, the fact that there is a 41% disparity between the graduation rates of white football players and black football players, UM should start addressing the problem rather than trying to convince everyone that the program only accepts top flight scholar atheletes.

Someone that cares more than I do might ask you to substantiate that statement. Also, how do you know that haven't started to address the problem?

I see what you are saying, Fool. This forum is turning into a quagmire of semantics.

:thatsracist:

any excuse to use that

OK, how about this, the fact that there is a 41% disparity between the graduation rates of white football players and black football players, UM should start addressing the problem rather than trying to convince everyone that the program only accepts top flight scholar atheletes.
Much fucking better. That's actually the exact post I wrote before I noticed Jethro's response and then the spin comment.

Even if it was the top school at graduating its athletes. Such a drastic disparity between races is definately a problem.

agree Fool, but this is hardly a new problem and is something that will probably not change for a very long time

One of my earlier points is that it is difficult to focus just on a graduation rate discrepancy without evaluating differences in student achievement prior to UM. I would guess that demographics of football players are similar to that of the nation on average. Hence, white players on average have received stronger educations than black players. Hence, they are more prepared for college upon arrival than black players. All else equal, the expectation would be that white players are more likely to graduate.

If your primary goal is equal graduation rates, you should provide more support to black players than to white players, so that black players can "catch up" to white players that have previously received more education.

If your primary goal is higher graduation rates for everyone, then you should provide equal support for white players and black players, but expect that white players will have higher graduation rates.

I favor providing an equal amount of support for both white players and black players. However, I think that UM needs to work harder at providing more support so that black players' graduation rates exceed 50%.

Personally, I think that it is assinine that the article puts BYU in a higher category than Florida despite the fact that Florida has higher grad rates for both white and black players.

Well with your very own Jimmy H's comments it is no wonder. I'd graduate all kinds of players if I floated them in and out of sports information joke classes. So fuck off with your high and mighty bs. Your own former players are calling out your university. I don't hear any former Spartans calling out State. Graduation rates would back what is being said, Michigan breezes them through. Lack of graduating players would prove a University isn't floating them through dumbass.

i know exactly what you mean. its actually funny that you said this, because last night i decided to use my degree to wipe some dogshit off my shoes. which is fine becuase i had recently won a UM law degree in one of those claw games at bowling allies, and am wait for my UM med school degree to arrive in the mail, which i bought off craigslist.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

ill reiterate what i said earlier: this is just "when bozos attack".

the only fair point against UM so far, amidst a ton of terrible ones, is questioning the disparity in graduation rates between races. i suspect that michigan's acceptance policy might have something to do with it. but in my opinion the school only owes these athletes so much help, theyre still college students expected to take some initiative on their own.

Looking back at the article posted, none of the highly rated public schools did very well. Michigan was significantly better than all of them.

wisconsin
UCLA
Cal
Georgia Tech
Texas

1. Uh oh, i wrote 8 paragraphs, some of which were less than a line. i thought using bullet points would make it easier for you. i guess that is still too taxing.

2. Oh my God, there is an anatomy course involved in the study of muscle function. I would never have guessed that. Thanks for filling me in. Honestly, you come across as borderline retarded sometimes.

3. I have known people in the kinesiology depts. at msu and um. Both said coursework was not very difficult. One wanted to be a PE teacher and one wanted to be a sports doctor. According to the pre-med guy, the pre-med classes were infinitely more difficult than the kinesiology classes. I don't have any problem with kinesiology or the fact that athletes major in kinesiology or sports management. I am sure many are interested in those subjects. It is just not particularly difficult. In fact, I pasted the requirements for the "coaching specialization" from msu. So kinesiology expert, which is more difficult: Principles of Coaching I or Principles of Coaching II?

4. Which michigan fan in this thread has said that michigan has the same standards as notre dame, stanford, etc? Those schools have higher standards. I am especially impressed by notre dame's commitment. The two strongest comments were michigan better than most ( a fairly low bar) and that UM will not scrape the absolute bottom of the barrel? You and budkow need to adjust your panties and stop with the histrionics.

5. Your inability to acknowlege MSU's recent history of low graduation rates, student riots, knott, smoker, rogers, etc. provides little room for you to preach down to us. Everyone and their brother knew smoker was coked out (pre-rehab), but msu continued to trot him out to play. If you were a notre dame fan, I could understand. As sparty fans, your condemnations ring hollow.

Coaching
Specialization
The coaching specialization is designed to provide students with knowledge, skills, and experiences that will enable them to coach effectively and safely in school, youth, and adult sports programs. Specific educational objectives include:

Knowledge and understanding of the growth and development of athletes
Knowledge and understanding of the medical, legal, psychological, social, biological, physical, theoretical, and technical aspects of coaching
Practical experience in coaching

Students who complete the specialization will be eligible to take the examination for certification as a Program for Athletic Coaches’ Education (PACE) Coach. The PACE program is administered jointly by MSU's Institute for the Study of Youth Sports and the Michigan High School Athletic Association.

Facts About the Specialization
The coaching specialization offered by the Department of Kinesiology is available to students enrolled in any bachelor's degree program at MSU. Participation by students from many disciplines is welcomed.
Students who are majoring in kinesiology complete the specialization requirements as part of the exercise science program option for the bachelor of science degree.
Students who are majoring in other fields of study complete the coaching specialization requirements posted here as well as the degree requirements associated with their major. With the approval of the department and college that administer the student's degree program, courses that are used to satisfy the requirements for the specialization may also be used to satisfy the requirements for the bachelor's degree.

Admission Procedures
There are no formal admission procedures for the coaching specialization.

Course Requirements
The student must complete all of the following courses (19 credits):

Courses
Cr
Title

KIN 125 3 First Aid and Personal Safety
KIN 260 3 Physical Growth and Motor Behavior
KIN 340 3 Psychological Bases of Physical Activity
KIN 400 4 Principles of Coaching I
KIN 401 4 Principles of Coaching II
KIN 494 2 Fieldwork

The student must also complete one of the following courses (2 credits):

Courses
Cr
Title

KIN 300A 2 Coaching Baseball
KIN 300C 2 Coaching Soccer
KIN 300D 2 Coaching Basketball
KIN 300E 2 Coaching Football
KIN 300K 2 Coaching Track and Field
KIN 490 2 Independent Study - the content of KIN 490 must focus on coaching and a KIN advisor must approve in writing the content of this course before the student enrolls.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmm....I'm just going to say you win so I don't have to read this. I took one look at how long it was and said, fuck it, who has time for this? You win X, no idea what the hell you wrote a book about, I'm sure it was great.

I understand. It would probably have taken you all day at the rate I picture you reading.

The disparity IS an issue and I hope that, in part, had something to do with the academic center coming into play. However, it seems as though it will require another 5 years before we can compare UM's classes before the academic center to those after, given the allowance of 6 years to graduate. Even then, that only accounts for last years freshman, and this study used four classes of freshman. So in order to get 50 black football players from 4 consecutive classes with access to the center and 6 years to graduate, we need to bookmark this thread and bump it in 9 years. I hope the results have improved by then.

LMAO Xanadu.

Now I know how to get Tre to just STFU. Write longer posts.

I appreciate it great Xanadu.

I understand. It would probably have taken you all day at the rate I picture you reading.

You are right! You know what is amazing about a low reader like myself though, the state of Michigan certifying a moron like me to not only teach, but labeling me "Highly Qualified" to teach Social Studies and....(you'll never guess) ENGLISH! And to top it all off, SVSU is allowing me to finish up my Master's Degree despite my low reading level. Simply amazing!

Tre, its just going to get even uglier if you start in on that.

How do you manage to teach if you cannot read 5 minutes worth of a post?

Spend less time posting and more time reading and understanding what people say.

The fact that the standards are so low for teachers these days doesn't make any "cents".

How do you manage to teach if you cannot read 5 minutes worth of a post?

Spend less time posting and more time reading and understanding what people say.

I read every decent post, don't want to waste my time with 700 words though. Sorry

I read every decent post, don't want to waste my time with 700 words though. Sorry

How can you classify it as decent or not decent without reading it?

How can you classify it as decent or not decent without reading it?

Because I said twice that it was a stupid topic and I didn't care after reading 9 pages of academic arguements.

1. The substanative part of my post was 315 words, followed by a cut and paste description of the rigorous coaching concentration within the msu kinesiology degree program.

2. Your post that the low graduation rates at msu are proof of elevated academic standards at msu would be the dumbest thing I have read on this board, except for your pal budkow's comparison to slavery.

3. For such a highly regarded teacher, it is "simply amazing" that you have no interest in a discussion of contemporary education standards and discrepancies.

my grocery store is offering a free mba from UM business school with the purchase of 3 boxes of kleenex. but i passed cuz thats ridiculous. allergy season is over, what am i going to do with three boxes of kleenex?

1. The substanative part of my post was 315 words, followed by a cut and paste description of the rigorous coaching concentration within the msu kinesiology degree program.

2. Your post that the low graduation rates at msu are proof of elevated academic standards at msu would be the dumbest thing I have read on this board, except for your pal budkow's comparison to slavery.

3. For such a highly regarded teacher, it is "simply amazing" that you have no interest in a discussion of contemporary education standards and discrepancies.

Maybe it's you that needs help reading. I never said MSU's low graduation rate was proof of elevated academic standards. READ. I said that if they aren't graduating, State obviously isn't pushing them through. Big difference there. You also claimed that UM wasn't helping its athletes through, then you followed it by citing great graduation rates. THAT is the stupidest thing I've seen on this board.

I work in education and spend much of my free time discussing education as part of my Master's program. So when I get on a sports board, you are right I don't want to discuss the U of M academics. Do you like to spend all your free time talking about your work?

At the end of the day, you have an alum and former standout Quarterback calling Michigan out. Your own athletes are calling out your U.

If you aren't interested in debating it why add they last line in there? Why? Because you are interested in slamming the school you just don't/can't debate the real issues of the matter. Just yell out the school you love and then curse the school you hate.

This forum is a joke.

If you aren't interested in debating it why add they last line in there? Why? Because you are interested in slamming the school you just don't/can't debate the real issues of the matter. Just yell out the school you love and then curse the school you hate.

This forum is a joke.

I don't care, but if somebody is going to talk shit and drag it on, then I'll tell it how it is. I don't care if UM pushes its athletes through, but if he wants to talk shit to me and claim it doesn't happen then I'll throw out the facts.

1. What the fuck is the difference between having low academic standards for athletes and pushing students through? How are those two things not directly corrolated? jesus christ, it is like you think just calling someone stupid is enough to substantiate an argument. Unless you can explain the difference in the above, you are an absolute tool. Sometimes it takes

2. How many bullshit excuses can you come up with: the post was too long, i work on education stuff all the time. So you love college sports and you are a dedicated teacher, but you have no interest in education within college sports. If you don't want to engage in an argument, don't post bullshit and run away with bitchmade excuses.

3. Harbaugh was comparing michigan and stanford. He wasn't comparing michigan and msu. Every michigan fan here has said that michigan standards for athletes are not as high as notre dame and stanford. That doesn't mean michigan is just as bad as everyone else (e.g., msu). The larger question to me is what is the alternative to steering less motivated and less prepared kids to sports communication classes. Harbaugh said that he himself received a good education, so it is not like the opportunity is not there.

4. Just because msu has low graduation rates, there is absolutely no causation that msu places more rigorous standards on its athletes or does not push athletes through (however you define it). Other possible explanations include: 1) um puts more effort into working with kids and making sure they attend class, 2) msu brings in more juco kids that have little hope of catching up if their credits don't transfer, etc. If Michigan just hands out degrees (unlike state), why is the grad rate so much higher for white kids? Does michigan just want to look bad?

edit: bolded for emphasis

Harbaugh has as the thread topic indicated an axe to grind. Namely he wanted a job at UM and got turned down.

The Florida guy has got to make his school seem better than it is.

What better way to show your allegiance to a school but try and knock down a school that is know for both academic execellence and on the field excellence.

Funny that Stanford can be dominant in so many sports with its rigorous standards, but it is too hard for their football program. Balant racism in that a lot of the other sports have mostly white kids who do better in school and thus they can do better in their sports, but black kids cannot hack it.

Whatever. Nontopic really. Name 5 schools that play big time college football that has a more respected degree attached to their name.

Perception is not always reality....ND still living on perception.

this is what i've gathered from this thread so far:

1) michigan doesnt graduate enough students.

2) michigan graduates too many students.

3) msu graduates just the right amount of students.

IMO I don't think that stanford, duke, northwestern and other schools with major football programs are racist. THey are just more concerned about their average test scores than michigan is. I don't really think it is an academic integrity thing. Rather, they have smaller class sizes and higher average entrance scores. Hence, they would not be willing to field an entire football team with low scores, because it would drop their avg. score a few points and they might slip in the academic rankings. Because basketball teams are smaller, the dukes and stanfords of the world can field decent teams with marginal effects to their average scores. In contrast michigan, ucla etc. have much larger enrollments and lower entrance scores, so it is not a big deal and they'll enroll most kids that can play.

I actually believe that ND does put more effort into making sure their athletes get a decent education and attend class. I think it is due to their position as the flagship of Jesuit schools. I can't prove it, but I know people that went to ND.

IMO, I think the ivy league schools are actually somewhat racist. I think they chose not to recruit kids for football and basketball, because their alumni wanted their kids to have a chance to play football and uphold family tradition. I think the academic integrity thing is just a smokescreen, because alumni knew their kids couldn't compete athletically with the rest of America. The reason I am less impressed by their academic integrity argument is because of their strong preference for legacies in admission. There is a ton of nepotism in the Yale, Harvard, Princetons of the world. They almost refuse to take public school kids, but will take the top 50% from Exeter. This is based on discussion with people I've known that went to those places and is less true for Columbia, Cornell and some of the other ivy schools.

I doubt any really cares, but I am procrastinating anyway.

Did Corey Maggette go back and get his degree?

X, I never ran from the arguement. Always came back. It's just that it started off as a simple discussion and went waaaay over the top. I never cared enough to go into a huge debate. Only reason I posted again was because you said, Tre quit crying when this thread was about Harbaugh ripping UM.

If you're that passionate about it, that's cool preach on. But, Jethro and I were talking about this tonight while hitting the billiards up: We're fans of athletics. Sure we hope the Universities aren't shady and we want things done right. But at the end of the day it is all about MSU/UM football/basketball. Those are the topics where I'll bring heat and care enough to get into giant debates.

Preach on, it's just not my flavor.

Spurrier blasts South Carolina admissions for denying two recruits

Associated Press
Updated: August 6, 2007, 9:25 AM ET

COLUMBIA, S.C. -- South Carolina football coach Steve Spurrier blasted the school's admissions process, apologizing to two recruits who signed with the Gamecocks last winter and were denied academic entry this summer.

"In my opinion, I still believe we made a mistake," Spurrier said Sunday.

Spurrier had spoken with university president Andrew Sorensen and the two agreed, the coach said, that things needed to change.

Spurrier was angered that receiver Michael Bowman of Wadesboro, N.C., and Arkee Smith of Jacksonville, Fla., were cleared by the NCAA to enroll, yet were turned down by the university. The rest of the Gamecocks football team officially reported Friday for preseason camp.

"Hopefully, I truly believe this is the last year this is going to happen, because I can't operate like that," Spurrier said. "I can't operate misleading young men."

Spurrier signed a contract extension, which included a raise of nearly a half-million dollars, that ties him to South Carolina through 2012. However, he said if things didn't change on admissions "then I have to go somewhere else, because I can't tell the young man that he's coming to school here," then not have him admitted.

University spokesman Russ McKinney said Spurrier has been involved in talks with Sorensen and other administrators about refining the process of athletic admissions.

"I think the university administration understands his frustration," McKinney said.

Per ESPN, it seems the facts are on Harbaugh`s side.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=2966536&sportCat=ncf

That's a good read, and I'm guessing even better for you, bukdow, as it furthers your agenda to use this forum as a means to do nothing but bash Michigan.
Bash away, though. Michigan is bigger than Harbaugh, Hart, Carr, and petty attempts by inferiority complexed wannabe's who pretend to be graduates of MSU to justify their existence as fans of arguably the worst program in NCAA football.

I'll admit that having such a small percentage of the team with declared majors is pretty ridiculous. That needs to be corrected and there should be someone on the staff taking care of that.

Funny, though, I read much of the article, skimmed the second half, but I never saw anything about race. I guess that argument is ridiculous enough that the mighty Pat Forde chose not to address it.

By the way, for the biggest BS line of the article:

"My motivation was positive," he said. "I see how it's done now at Stanford, and I see no reason to believe it can't be the same there. I have a great love for Michigan and what it's done for me. Bo Schembechler was like a second father. Michigan is a great school and always has been, and I don't see why they can't hold themselves to a higher standard.
Yeah, right, and me saying I despise all things Ohio is a positive comment.

That's a good read, and I'm guessing even better for you, bukdow, as it furthers your agenda to use this forum as a means to do nothing but bash Michigan.
Bash away, though. Michigan is bigger than Harbaugh, Hart, Carr, and petty attempts by inferiority complexed wannabe's who pretend to be graduates of MSU to justify their existence as fans of arguably the worst program in NCAA football.
I have two degrees from MSU, biochemistry and history. Don`t forget it. I posted the article because it seemed news worthy in the context of the discussion and it appears there are more people than just me interested in advancing truth over a charade.

I'll admit that having such a small percentage of the team with declared majors is pretty ridiculous. That needs to be corrected and there should be someone on the staff taking care of that.

Funny, though, I read much of the article, skimmed the second half, but I never saw anything about race. I guess that argument is ridiculous enough that the mighty Pat Forde chose not to address it.

By the way, for the biggest BS line of the article:

Yeah, right, and me saying I despise all things Ohio is a positive comment.
"Michigan athletes fare well by most academic yardsticks, at least in comparison to their peers. The football team has the third-highest academic progress rate in the Big Ten and ranks above the national average. The graduation rate ranks third in the Big Ten, as well -- although it dips to 38 percent (seventh in the 11-team league) for African-American players."

I have two degrees from MSU, biochemistry and history. Don`t forget it. I posted the article because it seemed news worthy in the context of the discussion and it appears there are more people than just me interested in advancing truth over a charade.

My dick has as many degrees from MSU as you do.

My dick has as many degrees from MSU as you do.

Zip, you seem to not understand the whole, let's try to make each thread about the topic thing. 1 day into it and you're back bashing bukdow. Maybe you don't like his opinion, but he's at least coming with material ON TOPIC. We've heard your "Bukdow is from this forum or that forum" 8,000 times. Who cares. Post your opinion about the topic, nobody cares how you feel about Bukdow.

Now wait a minute! I think I followed the new rule, and complimented him on the article pasting, then talked shit related to THIS thread. I did not bring up his trolling, just that he uses this forum as nothing more than a vehicle to trash UM (which, btw, is deserved in this case; what an academic disgrace). After he chose to remind me of his imaginary degrees, I responded. I think I'm fully within the new rules.
And when bukdow goes from troll to worthy reading, brings new material (I've been reading his shit for five years on the News forum), then I'll back off. You don't need to defend him just because he's an Angry Sparty.

I think this is an interesting debate, so I am glad that harbaugh has raised the question. The general question is what is in the best interest of disadvantaged kids that play football. Most really are not prepared to succeed in a standard college curriculum (especially while dedicating 40 hours per week to football). I'm just not convinced it is better to exclude borderline kids. If you stop admitting them, do kids work harder academically to qualify prior to college or do those kids just give up on college? In theory, universities should be able to kids a step up in life, even if they don't graduate with one of the more rigorous degrees. Hopefully, michigan will develop better procedures for African Americans.

Academic standards are great, and it seems apparent that UM has been living a lie for quite some time in regards to those standards, but what if UM went back to the standards they had in the 70's? Would they seem elitest, or as this thread has gone, possibly even racist? UM is the Affirmative Action University. Just ask the Supreme Court. So if their standards needed to be lowered in order to give opportunities to others, I'm fine with that.

To prove I'm not just blindly defending my school, keep in mind that I pointed out in the previous post that they seriously need to improve on their control of academics and get these kids into viable majors and declared.

However, I don't think you're proving anything at Stanford by only accepting the Collins twins of the world, while the rest of your campus is white.

Academic standards are great, and it seems apparent that UM has been living a lie for quite some time in regards to those standards, but what if UM went back to the standards they had in the 70's? Would they seem elitest, or as this thread has gone, possibly even racist? UM is the Affirmative Action University. Just ask the Supreme Court. So if their standards needed to be lowered in order to give opportunities to others, I'm fine with that.

To prove I'm not just blindly defending my school, keep in mind that I pointed out in the previous post that they seriously need to improve on their control of academics and get these kids into viable majors and declared.

However, I don't think you're proving anything at Stanford by only accepting the Collins twins of the world, while the rest of your campus is white.

Co sign me to Jethro's post. UM was singled out by the Bushies; they went after UM's admissions policies seemingly just after Bush was sworn in.

This is a great debate. I don't buy the "everybody does it angle", nor do I buy the "Why single out UM" angle IF and ONLY IF people at UM have this mysterious arrogance that people like bukdow are always talking about. I think most of this perceived arrogance is on the part of fans. Fans who think UM is somehwo more than a football factory with better "standards". Well, take a number, because fans of EVERY team in college football think that way. Go ahead and tell me that MSU's athletes are all canididates for a scholarship at Oxford.
I like that UM gives people a chance, even if it is because they run a 4.4 forty. When they get there though, I'd like it a little more if they were making sure these guys took their education seriously, because 99.9% of them will never play football again once they leave the campus.
Also, before you go ragging on General Studies, let's see the curriculum. Does it differ a whole lot from a degree in Liberal Arts?
Harbaugh is flat out full of shit. He made his comments in a negative light, was interested in creating a story about himself, and he needs to man up and take the criticism, because if he's so goddamm smart he had to know people at UM wouldn't take it lying down. Why is HE surprised at the reaction his comments ignited? Makes him look like a pussy. If you can;t stand the heat, keep your yap shut. If you're dissapointed at not getting a job at UM, work harder and maybe you will, especially when Lloyd and the Great Scott Loeffler move on.
If UM has been "living a lie", tell me who's been lying. Show me the quotes or the proof of the attitude you haters yap about constantly, because if it's just fans, shut the fuck up. We are ALL alike, whether you're a fan of UM, MSU, or Alabama State.

Now wait a minute! I think I followed the new rule, and complimented him on the article pasting, then talked shit related to THIS thread. I did not bring up his trolling, just that he uses this forum as nothing more than a vehicle to trash UM (which, btw, is deserved in this case; what an academic disgrace). After he chose to remind me of his imaginary degrees, I responded. I think I'm fully within the new rules.
And when bukdow goes from troll to worthy reading, brings new material (I've been reading his shit for five years on the News forum), then I'll back off. You don't need to defend him just because he's an Angry Sparty.
I understand you are a little man and my multiple degrees intimidates you and drives the point home you are nothing more than an addled blowhard. Biochemistry in 2000 and history in 2005. I am quite proud of those accomplishments.

Back to the topic, this article, along with Harbaugh`s testimony, as well as the president of University of Florida`s comment (who was dean of UM`s School of Dentistry), are beginning to shed light on the realities of Michigan. Unfortunately, it is one of the realities that many of those who attempt to live vicariously through UM sports hold most dear.

Zippy, I am sorry reality causes you so much consternation.

I understand you are a little man and my multiple degrees intimidates you and drives the point home you are nothing more than an addled blowhard. Biochemistry in 2000 and history in 2005. I am quite proud of those accomplishments.

Back to the topic, this article, along with Harbaugh`s testimony, as well as the president of University of Florida`s comment (who was dean of UM`s School of Dentistry), are beginning to shed light on the realities of Michigan. Unfortunately, it is one of the realities that many of those who attempt to live vicariously through UM sports hold most dear.

Zippy, I am sorry reality causes you so much consternation.

It's decent proof, but because two people said something doesn't make it reality on an overwhelming scale.
There probably isn't a rational UM fan in the world who doubts the veracity of Harbaugh's claims. I'm comfortable with what he said, I'd like to see that change. But we all know it won't. Like Jethro said, UM has been, for a long time, THE Affirmative Action university, so the policy of opening doors to more people crosses the boundary of sports. I think that overall, it's a good thing, and I think that every major college program thinks the same way UM does.
Well done, bukdow, you've opened a thread that has ignited much conversation!

It's decent proof, but because two people said something doesn't make it reality on an overwhelming scale.
There probably isn't a rational UM fan in the world who doubts the veracity of Harbaugh's claims. I'm comfortable with what he said, I'd like to see that change. But we all know it won't. Like Jethro said, UM has been, for a long time, THE Affirmative Action university, so the policy of opening doors to more people crosses the boundary of sports. I think that overall, it's a good thing, and I think that every major college program thinks the same way UM does.
Well done, bukdow, you've opened a thread that has ignited much conversation!
I would like to congratulate you on a cogent response.

cogent means 'persuasive'. its not a synonym for 'coherent'. maybe you should go back to msu and get a 3rd degree in vocabulary.

cogent means 'persuasive'. its not a synonym for 'coherent'. maybe you should go back to msu and get a 3rd degree in vocabulary.
Shut your fucking face.

co·gent [koh-juhnt]
–adjective 1. convincing or believable by virtue of forcible, clear, or incisive presentation; telling.
2. to the point; relevant; pertinent.


Just because you are a complete idiot, I have decided to also provide you with a list of synonyms, you intellectual panty-waist; convincing, well argued, logical, rational, coherent, sound.

never mind... its really not even worth it.

i dont know what kind of backwater, intellectually lazy dictionary you got that from, but cogent is not a synonym for coherent.



http://www.answers.com/topic/cogency?cat=biz-fin

but whatever. theres nothing wrong with saying that you find zip's opinion cogent. i just found it amusing that you were trying to talk down to him by using a big word and you didnt even know what it ment.
I got my information from an American Heritage dictionary. A very reputable source. Regardless, "cogent" was used correctly in my response to Zip. Your petulant attack was misplayed and you looked like an idiot. Just move on. You are wrong about this one.

By the way its "meant", not "ment". Fella, if I were you, I would just stick to the Hunter S. Thompson novels.

By the way its "meant", not "ment". Fella, if I were you, I would just stick to the Hunter S. Thompson novels.

thats very cogent advice of you. plus more 3-clap words from you!!

Now Sharp at the Freep and Carty at the Ann Arbor News are writing and asking questions (and receiving no answers from UM officials) about UM`s academic requirements vis a vis it`s football program. It appears one of UM`s favorite charades may have come to an end.

I got my information from an American Heritage dictionary. A very reputable source. Regardless, "cogent" was used correctly in my response to Zip. Your petulant attack was misplayed and you looked like an idiot. Just move on. You are wrong about this one.

By the way its "meant", not "ment". Fella, if I were you, I would just stick to the Hunter S. Thompson novels.

no, you did not use cogent correctly.

both cogent and coherent are derived from roman latin, cogens and cohaeréns, respectively. the first word means "to drive", while the second word means "continuous". these are not interchangeable.

i wouldnt usually be a dick like this but your being an asshole. one moment your trashing a school for being arrogant. then your trashing it for lack of educational integrity, and then your bragging about having 2 degrees. all the while your trying to impress people with your vocabulary and you dont even know what the words your using mean.

in short, you should stick to sports.

Just letting all posters know this thread is getting a great deal of consideration for a move to the Terrordome.

well, if you do, buckdow might never benefit from the "english" to "stupid" dictionary im putting together for him.

well, if you do, buckdow might never benefit from the "english" to "stupid" dictionary im putting together for him.
Once again, I direct you to post #115. It is obvious that my usage of cogent was correct. I realize you don`t have much, but trying to hang your hat on this isn`t worth it.

What we should ALL do, is stick to ignoring bukdow. He's a complete waste who has the axe to grind, and it is quite boring.
That, and he's a complete ass clown.

Of all the dumb arguments I have seen on here, this one takes the cake

Boy, this whole thing is getting weird and funny. A sad kind of funny though.

http://blog.mlive.com/jim_carty/2007/08/when_your_wife_heads_up_academ.html

By the way, read the responses from the readers. Whoa Nelly! Its like you are at a NASCAR time trial or something.

For the Michigan fans that get sick of me talking about "Michigan arrogance" check out the quote. "Michigan is the finest institution in the country for blending athletics and academics." puke

This is definitely an official response from the University.

28 players from Northwestern are Communications majors.

23 players from FSU are Social Science majors.

17 players from Oregon are Political Science majors.

I know FSU and Oregon are not in the same breathe in terms of reputation, but I believe that NW is considered on par with UM rep.

I agree Stanford is the best school that does it minus football. But put football into the equation and Michigan has an argument.

Seriously, if you haven`t read this, please do. There are some real delusional, blue and yellow humdingers in there. And mind you, this all comes from the husband of UM`s associate athletic director.

Man, I am starting to believe UM is like the Freemasons or something, nothing more than a brainwashed cult.

Seriously, if you haven`t read this, please do. There are some real delusional, blue and yellow humdingers in there. And mind you, this all comes from the husband of UM`s associate athletic director.

Man, I am starting to believe UM is like the Freemasons or something, nothing more than a brainwashed cult.

Otherwise known as Typical Football Fans. You want some Kool Aid delusionals, venture out to places like Oklahoma, Nebraska, or Alabama as well.

It is threads like these (rife with faux outrage) that give the msu fans their little brother image. Sure the guy made a bunch of dumb comments, but he also said:


Now, does every D-I school let in some marginal kids to play ball? Yes. EVERY SCHOOL does, with the exception of the academies, which really cannot compete (see ex-AFA coach Fisher DeBerry's public begging for the admission of more black athletes two years ago) year in, year out, at this level. Michigan graduated 22 of 25 football players last year, a rate you can stack up against any school in the country.

the guy wrote a column in poor taste to defend his wife. why is this a condemnation of every michigan fan? should i judge all spartan fans based on what bukdow writes?

It is threads like these (rife with faux outrage) that give the msu fans their little brother image.

It's moronic UM fans that try to place this little brother bullshit on MSU. Nobody says that but UM fans. It's an old lame elementary trash talk tactic. UM fans made it up. You don't hear MSU fans saying UM is the little brother in bball even though it could be totally warranted do you?

This has been statewide and national news to an extent. A former high profile alum blasting his own school and he's a head coach. You're giving the same response that UM fans give when the Martin days are brought up, you get all defensive because you don't want to hear about it. You don't want anyone talking about it because then maybe people will forget. Someone is posting bad news regarding UM....OH NO! HOW DARE YOU?!

Get over it. It is NCAA news and it's local NCAA news. Totally worthy of a thread. Sorry it makes you uncomfortable that somebody is posting something bad about almight Michigan.

It is threads like these (rife with faux outrage) that give the msu fans their little brother image. Sure the guy made a bunch of dumb comments, but he also said:



the guy wrote a column in poor taste to defend his wife. why is this a condemnation of every michigan fan? should i judge all spartan fans based on what bukdow writes?
There is nothing "little brother" about it. Harbaugh, the president of the University of Florida, the Detroit Free Press, ESPN and Carty (MLive/Ann Arbor News) are reporting and/or commenting on the fact that UM is not what they hype themselves to be. Plain and simple.

Regarding what was written, it was just more UM bullshit and spin. Just like Ed Martin wasn`t affiliated with the university or basketball program.

I understand that the institution you have so attached yourself to and have attempted to live vicariously through has been shown to be a sham, again, and that is hard for you to swallow.

Has anyone heard Alonzo Spellman's reaction?

Actually, the little brother stuff results from the non-stop complaining about u-m arrogancy, despite the fact that everyone on this board and, even the guy in the printed article has admitted that u-m football admits marginal students. so what are u-m fans being arrogant about? why are you two ranting again? big brother complex? I'm tired or hearing rants and raves by sparty fans (whose football program probably admits more marginal students than anyone in the big 10?) It is doubly pathetic, because I offered to discuss this in a reasoned way in the last thread, but tre and bukdow both copped out. Now a sensationalist story pops up and it is open season on um fans again. I thought tre didn't care about this. Yet here he is... 2nd post ripping on um, when he was too weak-minded to reply to my points in the last discussion... pathetic

Here's a stereotype for you: all spartan fans are so stupid that they compare the michigan football program to slavery in one breath and claim to have a history degree in the next. How is that for arrogance and stupidity?

Actually, the little brother stuff results from the non-stop complaining about u-m arrogancy, despite the fact that everyone on this board and, even the guy in the printed article has admitted that u-m football admits marginal students. so what are u-m fans being arrogant about? why are you two ranting again? big brother complex? I'm tired or hearing rants and raves by sparty fans (whose football program probably admits more marginal students than anyone in the big 10?) It is doubly pathetic, because I offered to discuss this in a reasoned way in the last thread, but tre and bukdow both copped out. Now a sensationalist story pops up and it is open season on um fans again. I thought tre didn't care about this. Yet here he is... 2nd post ripping on um, when he was too weak-minded to reply to my points in the last discussion... pathetic

Here's a stereotype for you: all spartan fans are so stupid that they compare the michigan football program to slavery in one breath and claim to have a history degree in the next. How is that for arrogance and stupidity?
UM football graduates 38% of its black players. Far less than its white players.

It could be that we don't want to hear about Ed Martin because it happened over a DECADE ago.

bukdown, how has UM been shown to be a "sham"? And agian, when Sparty graduates football players at nearly the worst rate of the entire conference, maybe you should take your little crusade elsewhere; it's a "galss house throwing rocks" thing.
I am amazed that Sparties can't understand that UM fans won't take the shit from them lying down. Fans of any school are going to defend their school. Look how Sparties jump up and down screaming like pussies every time something negative is posted about Sparty. Sparties, put this stuff up, and UM fans will defend, take your sorry asses to the woodshed every time. If you don't like it, then shut the fuck up.

UM football graduates 38% of its black players. Far less than its white players.

My thoughts are in the old thread. As others have said, michigan has been the affirmative action school. what has state done?

UM football graduates 38% of its black players. Far less than its white players.

Oh, now bukdow is the Great Emancipator. How does the school you claim to have graduated from do with regard to its black players?
And while your at it, give us the graduation rates for Sparty basketball. I;m just curious.

It could be that we don't want to hear about Ed Martin because it happened over a DECADE ago.

bukdown, how has UM been shown to be a "sham"? And agian, when Sparty graduates football players at nearly the worst rate of the entire conference, maybe you should take your little crusade elsewhere; it's a "galss house throwing rocks" thing.
I am amazed that Sparties can't understand that UM fans won't take the shit from them lying down. Fans of any school are going to defend their school. Look how Sparties jump up and down screaming like pussies every time something negative is posted about Sparty. Sparties, put this stuff up, and UM fans will defend, take your sorry asses to the woodshed every time. If you don't like it, then shut the fuck up.
What you fail to understand is that UM always claimed to be an elite institution in regards to academics and athletics. MSU has never made that claim. Therefore, when it is shown that UM`s football program is nothing more than a factory that graduates 38% of its black players, its news. And, its a sham. So, either understand the context and stay on point, or shut the fuck up.

WOW! The Izzo has his players graduating at a 75% clip. Very good!
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2795525
HOT DAMN! The Izzo is getting it done!

Oh, now bukdow is the Great Emancipator. How does the school you claim to have graduated from do with regard to its black players?
And while your at it, give us the graduation rates for Sparty basketball. I;m just curious.

Sorry to get in the middle of this one but I had this at the ready for another Izzo doubter.

2000 NCAA Championship • Four Final Fours: 1999, 2000, 2001, 2005 (most in nation) • Four Big Ten regular-season championships: 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001 • Two Big Ten Tournament titles: 1999, 2000 • 10 straight NCAA Tournament appearances (fifth-longest in the nation) • 10 players drafted since 2000 (third-best in the nation) • 82.9% GRADUATION RATE (for players who finished four years of school) • 145 straight home sellouts • Six assistant coaches who got head coaching jobs • Eight McDonald's All-Americans have played for MSU in the past eight seasons • MSU has played 34 of the 36 other Final Four teams since 1998

I think they are 2nd to Nortwestern.

What you fail to understand is that UM always claimed to be an elite institution in regards to academics and athletics. MSU has never made that claim. Therefore, when it is shown that UM`s football program is nothing more than a factory that graduates 38% of its black players, its news. And, its a sham. So, either understand the context and stay on point, or shut the fuck up.

UM makes that claim? I've never heard them say it. Back it up with some quotes and refernces, bukdow. Also, if UM makes the claim, how can you refute it, based on what black football players do? Maybe overall the student athlete at UM is well educated, but black football players lag behind in graduation rates. If that's the case, maybe black football players need to get their shit together.

are older than yours I think. Yours are from 3/2007. 75% works though. Higher than the student populous.

Beat you to it, Hip. I knew The Izzo was doing pretty well, actually. As you know, Hip, on the "other board"(the one bukdow learned to lie about getting an MSU degree from on), I have been at the forefront of this, talking about Lloyd's horrendous classroom achivements for over three years. I have even brought up the disparity between blacks and whites. It has been part of my campaign to get Lloyd shit canned. My argument has been that if he can;t win, maybe he graduates players, and uses smart players, like Stanford. BUT NO! He loses, and fails his athletes in the classroom!
Double loser, that Lloyd. Guess ya gotta be good at something.

Sorry to get in the middle of this one but I had this at the ready for another Izzo doubter.

2000 NCAA Championship • Four Final Fours: 1999, 2000, 2001, 2005 (most in nation) • Four Big Ten regular-season championships: 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001 • Two Big Ten Tournament titles: 1999, 2000 • 10 straight NCAA Tournament appearances (fifth-longest in the nation) • 10 players drafted since 2000 (third-best in the nation) • 82.9% GRADUATION RATE (for players who finished four years of school) • 145 straight home sellouts • Six assistant coaches who got head coaching jobs • Eight McDonald's All-Americans have played for MSU in the past eight seasons • MSU has played 34 of the 36 other Final Four teams since 1998

I think they are 2nd to Nortwestern.
I didn't know MSU was second to Northwestern in Final Fours.

UM makes that claim? I've never heard them say it. Back it up with some quotes and refernces, bukdow. Also, if UM makes the claim, how can you refute it, based on what black football players do? Maybe overall the student athlete at UM is well educated, but black football players lag behind in graduation rates. If that's the case, maybe black football players need to get their shit together.
From the article written by the husband of UM`s associate athletic director:

"Well, its been a tumultuous two weeks for the folks at Michigan, I'm sure, having to defend itself against comments made by a once-proud alum who decided to take a cheap shot (twice) at the nation's finest institution for blending sports and academics at a high level. This wasn't Fresno State he was chipping at, but Michigan."

Zippy, if you are going to be a blow hard, at least try to not be a stupid blow hard.

The Final Word:

Michigan has a 50% grad rate for black football players, and a 91% grad rate for white players
Nebraska is THE place if you are black and WANT to graduate: 80% grad rate, so maybe Jonas Gray is onto something; they graduate 91% of their honkies.
Overall, UM is at 71%, MSU is at 45%.(Football. Nice gay ass mascot, though, Sparties)

Sparty Basketball is lights out: 91% grad rate (this site did not list UM)
UM baseball beats out Sparty baseball, 94% to 89%
OVERALL, UM graduates 87% of its athletes (MSU not listed)

OVERALL: UM graduates 64% of its black athletes, and 91% of the crackers.

There you have it, bukdow: UM rates pretty high in every category not related to black football players.
I'd say that overall, UM can and should make the claim to be an elite student athlete university. Can there be improvements? Yes, and I'm sure there will be.
But first, you must join me in doing what we can to get Lloyd Carr fired.
Say it with me, bukdwo: The Leaders and BEST!!

SOURCE:http://stanford.scout.com/2/618619.html

From the article written by the husband of UM`s associate athletic director:

"Well, its been a tumultuous two weeks for the folks at Michigan, I'm sure, having to defend itself against comments made by a once-proud alum who decided to take a cheap shot (twice) at the nation's finest institution for blending sports and academics at a high level. This wasn't Fresno State he was chipping at, but Michigan."

Zippy, if you are going to be a blow hard, at least try to not be a stupid blow hard.

That's one person, bukdow. I mean, one person does not make it epidemic. With TWO imaginary degrees, I would think you'd know that anecdotal evidence is not convincing evidence.

By the way, Prove that statement to be wrong.

That's one person, bukdow. I mean, one person does not make it epidemic. With TWO imaginary degrees, I would think you'd know that anecdotal evidence is not convincing evidence.

By the way, Prove that statement to be wrong.

You are joking, right? Anecdotal? This guy is the husband of UM`s associate athletic director. Regardless, here is a quote from a former provost and dean of UM`s College of Dentistry:

"It's ridiculous. What a homer. I was at Michigan (as provost and dean of the school of dentistry). I know how they get in at Michigan. Don't talk to me about the Nobel laureates at Michigan."


J. Bernard Machen
President
University of Florida

You want me to prove the statement to be incorrect? No problem, UM graduates 38% of its black football players.

bukdow, I have provided statistics that refute your claim, and I am putting about one half of one tenth of one percent of a grain of salt into that comment by the guy from Florida. Ever hear of Billy Donovan? He's the guy all you Sparties say is dirty. I'm not going to listen to a guy that isn;t good enough for Michigan, then ends up at Florida. Geez, we ALL know how athletes get in at Florida, don't we?
That guy will really be crying like a bitch when UM steals Urban Meyer away when Lloyd finally hangs it up.

the nation's finest institution for blending sports and academics at a high level

Well, he may be the husband of the associate AD, but it was also written on a joke blog with stupid pictures. If his wife knew he was getting in the middle of a pissing match between hart and harbaugh, she should be pissed. Nonetheless, the point of your quoted statement is that michigan tries to field strong sports teams, while other schools like northwestern, ivies, etc. don't really put much effort into fielding strong teams. If one really wants to investigate discrepancies between white and black graduation rates, it goes way beyond college football at michigan, which may be why michigan is hesitant to engage in that discussion. However, the quoted statement itself is a homer statement and more or less nepotistic advertising for his wife's program. He also said in the article that michigan admits marginal students to play football (which is practically a requirement to have a strong football team). Just about all michigan fans have said that the school should improve black graduation rates, so you're not proving anything by posting the same tired crap over and over. it just gets annoying.

I'm not reading most of this, because it seems to be recycled, I'm just here to ask that it stays on topic without personal remarks. Otherwise, note the other thread was not deleted, just moved to a place that WELCOMES personal attacks.

XANADU:
It never gets annoying to a twat who pretends to graduate from a university to justify his rantings against another. Things like bukdow will always be with us, just like diarrhea. We just have to keep taking them out to the woodshed and kicking their asses.

bukdow, I have provided statistics that refute your claim, and I am putting about one half of one tenth of one percent of a grain of salt into that comment by the guy from Florida. Ever hear of Billy Donovan? He's the guy all you Sparties say is dirty. I'm not going to listen to a guy that isn;t good enough for Michigan, then ends up at Florida. Geez, we ALL know how athletes get in at Florida, don't we?
That guy will really be crying like a bitch when UM steals Urban Meyer away when Lloyd finally hangs it up.
I looked at your link and have seen other documentation where it is stated that UM football graduates 50% of its black players and 91% of its white players. I have also seen a site that reported 38% graduation rate for UM football`s black players. However, since that was on one occasion and the figure of 50% is cited twice, I will agree to the 50%/91% numbers.

Nonetheless, it appears that not only I think that UM`s claims about academics and the realities of the football program don`t match, but so do a former football player, a distinguished former provost, ESPN and numerous local newspapers. Whether you like it or not, there is a huge discrepancy between the blue and yellow hype and reality.

XANADU:
It never gets annoying to a twat who pretends to graduate from a university to justify his rantings against another. Things like bukdow will always be with us, just like diarrhea. We just have to keep taking them out to the woodshed and kicking their asses.
You have taken me nowhere near the woodshed, and never will. You just don`t have it in you. And the fact you continuously employ the childish tactic of denying my multiple MSU degrees never ceases to give me pleasure. Obviously, someone of your many shortcomings would only do such a thing if it really got under their skin. Never forget, Zippy, I have two degrees from a Big Ten university and you have shit. Actually, you have less than shit, you have unrealized vicarious dreams.

Let me just say one thing: If you look at ALL the statistics that link provides, there is ONE, I say again, ONE category that UM has issues: Black football players (I did see one site that listed high UM basketball grad rates as well, above 75%, can;t verify that). The "hype", as you call it, appears to be fairly justifiable, IF you take a look at those stats as a WHOLE. For UM to lag behind in black grad rates doesn't cut it with me, and it appears to be unsettling to you; I appreciate that, and hope they change it, but not by belittling black players with bullshit degree programs. However, the black athlete can step up his efforts a tad, too.

You have taken me nowhere near the woodshed, and never will. You just don`t have it in you. And the fact you continuously employ the childish tactic of denying my multiple MSU degrees never ceases to give me pleasure. Obviously, someone of your many shortcomings would only do such a thing if it really got under their skin. Never forget, Zippy, I have two degrees from a Big Ten university and you have shit. Actually, you have less than shit, you have unrealized vicarious dreams.

I do know that I'm forty four, and retired. It's not all that bad on my end.

Request: bukdow, xanadu and Zip need to get a room and work this out. Just find out once and for all who has the biggest dick so we can all move on.

Jethro, that's two recent posts in a thread you are supposedly not reading.
I think somebody is interested!!!
This has been a great threa, man, but I'm calling it done. Exhausted.
Michigan wins this thread, 1,952 points to 212 for MSU.

(I did see one site that listed high UM basketball grad rates as well, above 75%, can;t verify that).

does anyone know if sims, harris, or petway graduated? Judging by their "basketball iq", i'd be surprised. I'm pretty sure my elementary school team played smarter and with more composure. i suppose it could be all amaker's fault, but the utter lack of common sense was mindblowing at times.

Xanadu wrote: Waaaaaaaawaaaaa Quit posting bad stuff about Michigan you meany! Michigan is the best! You...you...little brother!
http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/01/69/22576901.jpg
Sorry, couldn't resist. All in fun.

Sorry to get in the middle of this one but I had this at the ready for another Izzo doubter.

2000 NCAA Championship • Four Final Fours: 1999, 2000, 2001, 2005 (most in nation) • Four Big Ten regular-season championships: 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001 • Two Big Ten Tournament titles: 1999, 2000 • 10 straight NCAA Tournament appearances (fifth-longest in the nation) • 10 players drafted since 2000 (third-best in the nation) • 82.9% GRADUATION RATE (for players who finished four years of school) • 145 straight home sellouts • Six assistant coaches who got head coaching jobs • Eight McDonald's All-Americans have played for MSU in the past eight seasons • MSU has played 34 of the 36 other Final Four teams since 1998

I think they are 2nd to Nortwestern.

Jack, you are the fucking man. Look at that shit. Sick as hell!

crying about the michigan fight song? are you fucking kidding me? are you 2 years old? Should I complain that msu's fight song says "spartan teams are never beaten".

maybe i have maize and blue goggles, but at least i can articulate an argument beyond OMG, did you hear what harbaugh said or OMG did you see what was on that picture blog. you can't engage in a grown-up debate so you run away. then you come back with weak shit posted from a joke picture blog "to prove your point". the issue of race, football, and college runs much deeper than espn articles and ann arbor news blogs.

i'm sure that if I felt the desire, I could find a quote from someone related to msu that sounds pretty arrogant. however, i don't give a fuck. do you think msu administration doesn't tout msu every chance it gets. is izzo a shit coach because he took randolph when other schools wouldn't touch him? answer: no izzo does a great job of combining basketball success with academic success. (see, i can admit that because I am not a whiny little bitch) the only person on this site that claims michigan self-perception as perfect is whiny sparties.

Anyways, I'm looking forward to the next "it is so unfair that michigan fans pick on me" post. maybe you can IM me when it is ready

http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/01/69/22576901.jpg
Sorry, couldn't resist. All in fun.

that's cool, i would assume you work better with pictures better than the written word. by the way, "sometimes when you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back into you" think about that.

(see, i can admit that because I am not a whiny little bitch)

Funny quote seeing that every single post that you've had on this topic thus far is you crying about MSU fans posting negative news on UM.

Warm that bottle up...

this is pathetic, even for you

I'm just the little brother, you shouldn't expect much. Right?

"I think they are 2nd to Nortwestern."

Well that's how we pronounce it here in "Minnysoda", eh!

Can someone tell me why the ` character is even on the keyboard? It's not an apostrophe, it doesn't serve any purpose as an accent mark. It's just useless.

Swami:
It's a conspiracy. It stands for "Michigan Arrogance".

I'm sure it's not relevant, but Carl Tabb is in medical school. I wonder how he ever got there. After all, he's black and he played football at UM. It's crazy, really. I figured I wouldn't here from him until I saw him as a cashier at Whole Foods in Ypsilanti or something.

I just hope he isn;t going to be a gynecologist. Man, with the way UM football players love to swing their dicks around, this could get ugly.

Did anyone else chuckle when you saw the headline, "Stanford player ruled academically ineligible" on ESPN.com earlier today?

Nice.

I didn't see it, but I'm chuckling now.

Two interesting pieces from completely unbiased sources.

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/football/stories/2007/10/9/oller09.ART_ART_10-09-07_C1_6O84R65.html?sid=101

Big upset could send Harbaugh to Michigan

Tuesday, October 9, 2007 3:38 AM
By Rob Oller
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH

Sportswriters love those mouths that constantly move. But does Michigan?

When Stanford shocked Southern California on Saturday, the upset overturned more than the top of the college football rankings. Most fans tend to view upsets only in the context of how they affect the polls, but the fallout goes well beyond the game of musical chairs that has schools jumping in and out of the top 10.

More than just seasons are saved or lost when heavy underdogs lift their leg on the favorites. Losing coaches get canned. Winners get elevated to savior status.

Some, such as former Michigan quarterback and current Stanford coach Jim Harbaugh, might even get to go home again. Whoo doggie, wouldn't that be a riot? I mean literally, a riot in Michigan faculty and board of trustees meetings. I can hear it now …

Haughty humanities professor: "This institution hires Harbaugh over my dead body."

Maize and blue-blooded trustee: "Open casket or not?"

Undoubtedly, some Michigan profs and plenty of fans wouldn't touch Harbaugh with a 39 1/2 -foot pole. During the summer, that Grinch had about as much chance as Rush Limbaugh of being greeted warmly in Ann Arbor. Harbaugh called out his alma mater for accepting recruits who were then encouraged to sign up for easy majors.

"Michigan is a good school," Harbaugh said. "I got a good education there. But the athletic department has ways to get borderline guys in, and when they're in, they steer them to courses in sports communications."

Coach LLLLloyd Carr called Harbaugh's comments "elitist" and "arrogant," which in my way of thinking makes him the perfect choice to coach at the "Harvard of the Midwest."

Major upsets have a way of changing minds. Stanford still stinks, but suddenly Harbaugh is being hailed as the next Charlie Weis -- pre-2007, of course.

Harbaugh might have embarrassed Michigan with his words, but you better believe that today's topic of conversation in Ann Arbor concerns whether Captain Comeback might soon embarrass Ohio State the way he did in 1986 when he guaranteed a victory against the Buckeyes during the week of The Game. True to his word, Harbaugh rallied the Wolverines to a 26-24 victory that sent them to the Rose Bowl -- and him to the top of the OSU enemy list.

Many big-money boosters and alumni who watched Stanford pull off what some are calling the biggest upset in college football history are asking themselves, "When was the last time Michigan was on the spoiler end of an upset?" (Easy answer: against Ohio State in the 1990s. Pick a year, almost any year).

Before the 24-23 victory over the then-No. 2 ranked Trojans, forgiving Harbaugh's tongue from its transgressions might have been pretty darn difficult. Now?

USC was favored by 41 points against a team that had been outscored 141-51 in its first three Pacific-10 games. The Cardinal, 1-11 last season, was starting a reserve quarterback who had completed one pass in his college career.

The suspicion is that Carr will call it quits after this season. He already was considering retirement before Appalachian State rode into town and humiliated the Wolverines in the opener.

Talk about a cosmic coincidence: replacing Carr, victim of the most shocking upset in college football history, with Harbaugh, proud owner of the biggest upset. Also, what could be better, at least from a media viewpoint, than replacing a coach who says nothing with one who says everything?

During the Pac-10 media day this summer, Harbaugh said of USC, "Not only is it the best team in the country, but maybe the best team in the history of college football."

So Michigan might have a chance to hire the coach who defeated the best team ever.

Harbaugh said in another recent interview that his research revealed that Cal, Stanford's biggest rival, has a football graduation rate of only 44 percent. Never mind that those numbers were a decade old; Harbaugh's mouth had already moved.

"I just speak what I feel," he said.

I smell an upset in the making. Michigan hires Harbaugh. Tress vs. The Mouth? A reporter can dream, can't he?

Rob Oller is a sports reporter for The Dispatch.


Remember, the "O." is for "objectivity".
http://www.dailytribune.com/stories/100907/spo_caputo001.shtml

Michigan full of 'embattled' coaches

By Pat O. Caputo
Journal Register News Service

The term "embattled" and "football coach" fit snugly.

When isn't an NFL or major college football coach "embattled?"

This week, around these parts, we are 3-for-3.

In Allen Park, Embattled Football Coach No. 1 Rod Marinelli's skin is proving to be tissue paper thin. The Detroit Lions head coach verbally jumped a reporter from the Detroit Free Press during a news conference Monday.

He was rude, curt, disrespectful and unprofessional. In other words, everything the party line out of the Lions' headquarters claim him not to be.

The Lions lost 34-3 at Washington on Sunday. It was the second time in three weeks Marinelli took his team on the road and they were not properly prepared -- and in every way. When the going got tough, Marinelli's team rolled over.

But instead of taking accountability, Marinelli chose to strike out at the messenger.

In the process, he became radio talk show fodder, while presenting the impression he is starting to come unglued.

This is the undisputed truth about Marinelli's tenure as Lions' head coach.

In two years, he has led his team to a 6-15 record. His team has played sloppy, mistake-prone and uninspired football many more times than it has not.

Yet, understanding the mess he has inherited, Marinelli has been given an inordinate amount of slack from the media and fans.

Marinelli doesn't seem to appreciate the benefit of the doubt he has been given that Marty Mornhinweg and Steve Mariucci clearly were not, does he?

And while he is wise to focus on the Lions' 3-2 record rather than two blowout road losses, Marinelli's method for delivering the message Monday was pompous and asinine rather than dignified.

It not only reflects poorly on Marinelli, but on the Lions' organization as a whole.

Embattled Football Coach No.2 is Michigan State's Mark Dantonio. He had become the darling of Mid-Michigan following the Spartans' surprisingly impressive 4-0 start.

Now doubt is starting to burst into the collective psyche of Sparty following an extraordinarily poor performance in Saturday's loss to Northwestern.

Like Marinelli with the Lions, Dantonio is attempting to change a losing culture. Unlike Marinelli, he is accepting responsibility for his team's poor play.

"You can't point the finger without your thumb pointing right back at you," Dantonio said.

Now there is a coach who gets it.

Embattled Football Coach No. 3 is Michigan's Lloyd Carr. Over the summer, Carr let a petty talking match transpire when Michigan running back Michael Hart -- with the support of former Michigan running back Jamie Morris, who is a university employee -- said former Michigan quarterback Jim Harbaugh is "not a Michigan man."

Harbaugh, now the head coach at Stanford, had pointed out some of the double standards Michigan -- and just about every big-time college football program -- allows for football players.

Now Carr is wearing egg on his face because Harbaugh, as a six-touchdown underdog, led Stanford to a victory over USC Saturday night.

Carr has never beaten USC, including getting routed by the Trojans in the most recent Rose Bowl. And adding significance to Stanford's shocker was it coming the same season Carr's Wolverines were beaten at home by Division I-AA Appalachian State.

The big debate in college football circles this week is about which was the bigger upset.

What if Harbaugh turns out to be a brilliant head coach? Does it mean Michigan should pass on him because he drew the ire of Carr?

I firmly believe this: Bo Schembechler never would have tolerated Hart's comments about Harbaugh, let alone supported them.

I also feel what happened Saturday night in Los Angeles was poetic justice.

Pat O. Caputo is a columnist for the Journal Register News Service. Contact him at pat.caputo@oakpress.com.

The "S" on my chest stands for "straight down the middle".

...where you will get hit helmet to helmet.

Jim Harbaugh 'considering' Michigan
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12043761/san-francisco-49ers-coach-jim-harbaugh-said-considering-michigan-job

http://canadaartsconnect.com/magazine/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/axe-to-grind.jpg