Here's a Youtube vid. Apparently, the Senate opens every day with a prayer before getting down to business. The Senate has its own official Chaplain, but the tradition is for the Chaplain to step aside frequently and let other people lead the prayers. There have been clergy from many different religions leading prayers in the Senate, but this is the first time a Hindu has ever led the prayer.

And as you can see, 3 or 4 people in the gallery went absolutely ballistic, shouting stuff about Jesus, and had to be dragged out.

sq3ElGdC2fU

How can the senate open with a prayer at all? our kids can't even say the pledge because it says God in it. This makes no sense at all.

How can the senate open with a prayer at all? our kids can't even say the pledge because it says God in it. This makes no sense at all.

What? WTF are you talking about. They say the pledge over the announcements every day at most schools.

What? WTF are you talking about. They say the pledge over the announcements every day at most schools.

They do? I thought they banned it in a bunch of schools. I don't have kids so I don't know first hand, but I do remember there being a big movement to eliminate the pledge because of that.

The under God part got taken out, which is a shame.

The under God part got taken out, which is a shame.


What? WTF is with you people the past week? You've all gone dumb on me.

The under God part got taken out, which is a shame.

Only in a few districts in California and Florida I think.

The Supreme Court denied an appeal to take it out entirely I think.

How can the senate open with a prayer at all? our kids can't even say the pledge because it says God in it. This makes no sense at all.

There's no legal bar against the Pledge of Allegiance anywhere. It's weird and creepy, but it's not illegal. The guy who originally brought the lawsuit against his daughter's school district was turned away at the Supreme Court because he didn't have full custody of his daughter, which means that he didn't have legal standing to be heard in court.

Also:

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x147/dspiewak/war.076.gif

Well, is the "Pledge" a prayer to a flag, a country, while God is who we're supposed to "worship"? It's the most blatantly bullshit mixing of church and state you can have. It's indoctrination of children. Get the whole fucking thing thrown out of the classroom. Let children be critical thinkers who make their own decisions regarding their allegiances and don;t force them to be robotic patriots, as that term is about as shifting as the sands of religion, and would depend on who is defining "patriotism" at any given time. Sheesh.

You mean you don't want kids blindly preaching their support of Bush and his illegal wars?

lol

^^Goddamm! I forgot about that! Thanks Chris. On second thought, make the little fuckers say a rosary every morning, and offer one of their classmates up in sacrifice like Abraham and his son Isaac.
Of course, have someone dressed as George Bush run in just as the kid is about to be whacked, and save him, and proclaim that George Bush is Lord and God of us all!

I just find the idea of forcing children to make a loyalty pledge a little...odd.

But as far as I'm concerned the Senate can do whatever they want. It doesn't matter anyway. If they want to have a Hindu priest say a few words about friendship and togetherness before they get down to the business of pissing away my tax dollars on no-bid contracts to KBR, I gives a fuck.

That's the part of this that drives me nuts, I think. The horrible shit the Senate does every goddamn day is apparently perfectly Christian to these protesting lamebrains, but the fact that a Hindu priest opened the session was un-fucking-sat, I guess.

The Russians aren't godless anymore, BTW.

Well, is the "Pledge" a prayer to a flag, a country, while God is who we're supposed to "worship"? It's the most blatantly bullshit mixing of church and state you can have. It's indoctrination of children. Get the whole fucking thing thrown out of the classroom. Let children be critical thinkers who make their own decisions regarding their allegiances and don;t force them to be robotic patriots, as that term is about as shifting as the sands of religion, and would depend on who is defining "patriotism" at any given time. Sheesh.

Come on Zip, what's next...the Russians aren't godless anymore?

The Russians are like the Greeks now. They all belong to the Orthodox church, but no one actually believes in God.

SO the Russians and greeks are just like Americans?

PRAISE THE LAWRD!

A bunch of peeps get bent out of shape about anything these days. I mean the ACLU wanted a teacher fired cuz she wouldn't conceal or take off her lil Jesus cross, and then the ACLU got bent out of shape when a School kicked out some kids cuz they told a teacher to 'fuck off' claiming some freedom of speech bull shit.

Peeps get bent out of shape cuz a nurse can't give their kid an aspirin, but our underaged daughters can have an abortion without notifying parents.

Peeps just need to relax. :)

Peeps get bent out of shape cuz a nurse can't give their kid an aspirin, but our underaged daughters can have an abortion without notifying parents.

Yeah, cuz it's SO much better for all concerned if more and more teenagers would just have more kids! Get 'em out early and often, so you can be a grandmother by the time you're 28 I say!

Abortion is one thing, everyone has an opionion on that but I don't agree with the non-notification thing. I don't think that kids can do that anywhere, but it is ok somewhere, iinm.

Wow, I hope that teacher was fired. That's sick to think we should let her do that.

The under God part got taken out, which is a shame.
The fact that it ever got put in, as a result of a bill from a Detroit area congresscritter no less, is more shameful. Put a divisive thing in front of the word "indivisible" -- swell.

SO the Russians and greeks are just like Americans?

Not really. Any time you have a place in the world where there is a small minority of extremely religious people and they are afraid their neighbors are turning to sin and godlessness, guess what they do?

That's right, they move to America. Or haven't you noticed that the US seems to be stacked to the gills with extremely religious immigrants? It's a trend that reaches back all the way to the Pilgrims.

Aw, geezus, here we go again with the pilgrims. The first hypocrites to reach the shores of this country and begin the destruction of the people that had already been here for 20,000 years.
If "god" was so great, how come he couldn't make it over here to give a sermon or pass out some salmon to the natives? It's not like he would have needed a boat, he could walk on water!

If God was a smart God (talking the Christian God of course) then he could've at least sent his only son out to die at a better time, no?

The funny thing about this is that Hindus love them some Jesus. Hindus and Buddhists are big fans of J-Chriddy, even if they don't believe he was God.

Muslims speak highly of him also, and similarly think he wasn't the G.o.d.

Mich & Tele + Computer = Zip Goshboots peeing pants while laughing.
"J Chriddy"--Please tell me you made that up (but don't lie).

I lol'ed.

No, I wish I'd made that up but I didn't. I know I heard it somewhere but I can't remember where. I just picture Jesus with sunglasses and diamond earrings, halo cocked to the side...

Do he have grilles?

Do he ride into town on a donkey that has those air shocks so he bouncey bouncey up and down?

Healin' the sick, rollin' on 22s.

I saw Jesus in a dream once. True story.


Didn't buy into his bullshit though of course.

That seems like it could be a good dream. I'm down with Jesus, the guy whose life is in the Bible. He seems like a good guy. The Sermon on the Mount is some good stuff. The guy St. Paul talks about...that guy sounds like a dick.

Yeah and he wasn't a blue eyed white boy (go figure huh?)

If God was a smart God (talking the Christian God of course) then he could've at least sent his only son out to die at a better time, no?

if the Christ story is true, wouldnt God be making the biggest sacrifice he could make while also doing you the biggest favor he could do?

i realize that your probably an atheist and thumbing your nose at believers, but Jesus the man, independent of religion, is one of the most important figures in history, and also probably the most influential re: morality.

i guess im saying your coming off as a little ungreatful.

If Jesus died to do mankind a "solid", then does that make up for the rest of the time when we're geting fucked in the ass?
Don't give me "morality", bub. People who've never heard of Jesus, before and after he supposedly came down here were pretty fucking moral, and in most cases more goddamm moral than the people who went out preaching his word and trying to convert souls (while murdering them and harnessing them into slavery).
Take your fukcing "jesus is moral and died for us" and shove it back onto the bookshelf with the rest of the fiction you read.

i dont know how much of a history buff you are, but if not you should look into pre-christianity rome for an example of the differences in morality.

and you cant confuse the messengers with the message. just because there have been some pretty amazing hypocrites in history doesnt mean that on a whole it hasnt been a huge positive.

Edit: Ignore.

i guess im saying your coming off as a little ungreatful.


You're right on that one.

Edit: Ignore.


Did somebody say something?

i dont know how much of a history buff you are, but if not you should look into pre-christianity rome for an example of the differences in morality.

and you cant confuse the messengers with the message. just because there have been some pretty amazing hypocrites in history doesnt mean that on a whole it hasnt been a huge positive.

Don't even ever TRY to talk "morality" when it comes to christianity! You have got to be kidding. And exactly who the fuck has this been a "positive" for?
It's been the most destructive fairy tale in the history of mankind. Nore wars and deaths and perversion and rape and mass murder than anything else combined. More hypocrisy than can be imagined. More illegally gotten gains, more stifling of science and medicine than any agency ever. A god who delights in killing everybody he comes across in the old testament, and then his own son in the new testament.
A god who let six million of his "chosen people" get exterminated? Oh that's right, they said they were the chosen people, not god.
Man, morality is the absolute LAST place any christian wants to go when it comes to defending this fairy tale.
A REAL positive for the people in this hemisphere that the "all powerful" god didn;t get over here to pass out some salmon to. A REAL positive to the poor Africans who've spent 400 years being obliterated despite believeing in the fairy tale. A REAL positive to thousands of young altar boys. A REAL positive to those who got in their way during the crusades. A REAL positive for the protestants and catholics in England to be killing each other over for 1000 years.
A REAL positive for our involvement in the powder keg known as the middle east, battling with another group of idiots who have their own fairy tale.
Wow, where the FUCK do I sign on for this? It sounds like one hell of a party!

Professors in Colorado Receive Death Threats for Teaching Evolution
By Kristen Philipkoski EmailJuly 17, 2007 | 2:53:13 PMCategories: Evolution

Korn Letters from a Christian extremist last week threatened the lives of evolution biology professors at the University of Colorado at Boulder. The letters claimed to be on behalf of a group, but newspapers and at least one blog have reported that an individual, Michael Korn, a Jew-turned-Christian extremist, is likely behind the threats (an image from his web site is at right). CU police spokesman Brad Wiesley told me they haven't officially named a suspect but the Colorado Daily wrote that others "close to the case" named Korn.

The Colorado Daily describes some of the perpetrator's escapades:

Last weekend more than a dozen envelopes bearing the image of skull and crossbones and containing letters threatening the lives of CU-Boulder evolutionary biology professors were slipped under the doors of CU-Boulder buildings….

Several sources say Korn has distributed flyers on campus and has barged into offices of biology professors and administrators in the past year.

But in recent days the threatening e-mails and letters have occurred with increasing frequency and intensity.

On Friday an e-mail sent to CU-Boulder’s evolutionary biology department bore the subject line "a final CU Boulder EBIO appeal” and repeated the line "every true Christian should be ready and willing to take up arms to kill the enemies of Christian society."

That line, as well as “they must go,” have been repeated in a number of communiqués, said a source.

The Panda's Thumb posted the letters last week.

It still seems a bit early to be implicating Korn. Wiesley said police are interviewing people and trying to determine whether criminal charges are appropriate. On Korn's blog profile, just fyi, he describes his occupation as "fisher of men" and his industry as "publishing." God help us. His favorite movies are "Forrest Gump, The Jesus Film and The Passion of the Christ."

I have a call and email in to Korn, will keep you posted.

http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/07/professors-in-c.html

Don't even ever TRY to talk "morality" when it comes to christianity! You have got to be kidding. And exactly who the fuck has this been a "positive" for?
It's been the most destructive fairy tale in the history of mankind. Nore wars and deaths and perversion and rape and mass murder than anything else combined. More hypocrisy than can be imagined. More illegally gotten gains, more stifling of science and medicine than any agency ever. A god who delights in killing everybody he comes across in the old testament, and then his own son in the new testament.
A god who let six million of his "chosen people" get exterminated? Oh that's right, they said they were the chosen people, not god.
Man, morality is the absolute LAST place any christian wants to go when it comes to defending this fairy tale.
A REAL positive for the people in this hemisphere that the "all powerful" god didn;t get over here to pass out some salmon to. A REAL positive to the poor Africans who've spent 400 years being obliterated despite believeing in the fairy tale. A REAL positive to thousands of young altar boys. A REAL positive to those who got in their way during the crusades. A REAL positive for the protestants and catholics in England to be killing each other over for 1000 years.
A REAL positive for our involvement in the powder keg known as the middle east, battling with another group of idiots who have their own fairy tale.
Wow, where the FUCK do I sign on for this? It sounds like one hell of a party!

alright, didnt this debate just occur on this board?

if you think the world would have been a better place sans religion, thats on you, but i suggest researching history more (the crusades, the holocost, etc) before you just blame religion for these events.

and not to be a dick, but asking why a god would allow bad things to happen on earth is pretty elementry reasoning.

Asking why god would let those things happen, though elementary, is pertinent, because bad things happen to even the most devout believers. And you are right with the "shoot the messenger, not the message" approach. But the "morality" play is as elementary, because you are saying that god taught man morality, which is simply not true. Man has taught his own interpretation of morality to other men, and disguised it as the word of god. This, it is not a positive, due to the fact that morality is what the teacher thinks is best, maybe not is what is best for the student. Morality is and always will be a human construct, and will always be perveted because of that.

pertinent, but also it goes no where.

if you believe in the christian construct of God, you believe something about an all knowing god who lives in the past, present, and future and that we're all part of a perfect finished plan.

theres tons of stuff on this in the bible.

theres also a good parable about this in the once and future king, about a prophet who stays in town at two different homes, one host is generous and one is inhospitable. upon leaving the generous host the prophet kills the guy's cow, and upon leaving the inhospitable guy's house he patches up dude's cracked wall. prophet's servant asks afterwards why he was bad to the good and good to the bad, and the prophet rhymes to him something about the nice guy's cow being sick, and had dude continued to sell its milk his rep would have been ruined, while the bad guy's cracked wall had treasure behind it that he would have discovered had he fixed the wall himself.

i realize you obviously have a axe to grind against religion and stuff like that you'll probably just laugh at. which is fine, i dont care. but i suggest moving beyond rudimentary arguments like "can god make a rock so big he cant lift it." religion isnt a matter of logic, or arguments, it basically comes down to faith and whether you want it to be a part of you life.

i realize that your probably an atheist and thumbing your nose at believers

Actually, I'm trying to convert to the Raelian cult.

Listen, I don't really believe Jesus performed miracles, rose from the dead, or was the son of God or anything else like it. But I'm all about Jesus and here's why:


Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you...

Now, I'm not going to say that there isn't tons of really horrible stuff in the Bible, and even some bad stuff said by Jesus. But deifying Jesus just makes it impossible to critique the bad things he said (he never said bad things - he's God, after all), and it makes it equally impossible to really appreciate the good things he said (well of course he said good things - he's God, after all). It sets an impossibly high standard of judgment. Jesus will probably never be recognized for his achievements in the area of being a spiritual teacher, which, if you'll recall, was kind of his field of work.

Instead people just get wrapped up in the idea of Jesus as the Eternal Lord of The Universe Who Sits In Judgment Over Us All. It makes it really easy to forget that there are hundreds of things Jesus said or did that involved caring for the sick, giving to the poor, and befriending the lonely, and nothing at all about how homos are bad or how you're gonna go to h. e. double hockey stix if you pray with people of other religions.

I dunno.

That quote makes JC sound Mighty passive aggressive.

alright, didnt this debate just occur on this board?

Yes, but Zip has exactly one sabre to rattle and he's happy to do it every chance he gets.

I suppose you could see it that way (what with all the Christians who go around saying "I'll pray for you" to people they hate) but essentially it's a message of non-violence. You can't cure the damage people do by damaging them back. I get that. The ancient Israelites were concerned about the justice system and fitting the punishment to the crime so that the nation remains strong. Jesus was concerned with individuals and how to heal them.

pertinent, but also it goes no where.

if you believe in the christian construct of God, you believe something about an all knowing god who lives in the past, present, and future and that we're all part of a perfect finished plan.

theres tons of stuff on this in the bible.

theres also a good parable about this in the once and future king, about a prophet who stays in town at two different homes, one host is generous and one is inhospitable. upon leaving the generous host the prophet kills the guy's cow, and upon leaving the inhospitable guy's house he patches up dude's cracked wall. prophet's servant asks afterwards why he was bad to the good and good to the bad, and the prophet rhymes to him something about the nice guy's cow being sick, and had dude continued to sell its milk his rep would have been ruined, while the bad guy's cracked wall had treasure behind it that he would have discovered had he fixed the wall himself.

i realize you obviously have a axe to grind against religion and stuff like that you'll probably just laugh at. which is fine, i dont care. but i suggest moving beyond rudimentary arguments like "can god make a rock so big he cant lift it." religion isnt a matter of logic, or arguments, it basically comes down to faith and whether you want it to be a part of you life.

These aren't "rudimentary" arguments I'm making, and don't put words into my posts "rock so big..." You are shying away from the point YOU brought up to timbeau about sounding "ungrateful".
As for your suggestions to "check history", again, nothing more than a deflection. Why don;t you enlighten me about history? I've been studying history longer than you've been alive, including intensely over the last cuple years since returning to school.
Quit throowing all these red herrings into the discussion. Religion isn't about faith, it is about the manipulation of faith to fit one man or one group's prejudiced position. It's about using faith to justify their power or desire for it. Faith isn't anything more than a philosophical argument either. And it is way different than quoting bible bedtime stories or using them to justify a position. Using the bible to support faith is like using a horoscope to justify astrology. No proof exists for this crap other than the fact that it has been accepted by the dominant mainstream cultures to further their control of the masses. No proof exists outside the bible, which, of course, is based on loose interpretations of tattered pieces of ancient texts found in caves in a certain part of the world.
And there is and never will be nor ever has been proof that one is right over the other. Your original statement to timbeau is what I challenge; what should be be grateful for in an act that is implausible, unprovable, and unneccessary. Why would a god need a miracle to prove himself? Who is he proving it to, and what does he have to prove?
What is the distinction between the god of Job, who says, "Hey, I'm a really big deal, it's a god thing, you wouldn;t understand", and the god of John who "gave his only begotten son" to save the world? Why the muscle flexing?

Yes, but Zip has exactly one sabre to rattle and he's happy to do it every chance he gets.

Nice, Fool. It's not like you ever have anything to add anyway.

About your obsession? Nope.

I don't wear Obsession.

For the record: even though religion is pretty much the single worst topic to bring up in any group of people, you guys are still A-OK with me no matter what you think about it.

For the record: even though religion is pretty much the single worst topic to bring up in any group of people, you guys are still A-OK with me no matter what you think about it.

I've never understood why people say that about religion. It's only been the most influential invention by mankind ever. To not talk about it is a disservice. Especially when religionists are wont to discuss it anywhere, anytime.

I had so much religion pumped into me growing up that Atheism was the word of the day for me for years when I was 20 something. Then I migrated to agnostic, and now as i get older, as much as I hope there is a God, I can't quite just accept it as fact. I'm one of those needs a lil proof types.

When i was going through my atheism stage, my buddy who is a Christian said, 'if you are atheist why don't you just go kill everyone? Not trying to portray all religious peeps in that light, but it is the mindset of some.

Yeah Tahoe, I can relate. A former friend of mine, Mike, is a devout "Christian" and was/is a total jackass with his faith.

I had a co-worker go nuts on me after I decided I was an atheist. He said, "If I didn't have God in my life, and there's no universal standard for morality, what's to keep me from raping, killing, stealing, or sitting in a puddle of my own piss all day?"

I had no idea how to respond to that. It was by far the creepiest thing anyone had ever said to me about religion. I mean, I don't do any of those things because I don't want to do them. But I hope for the sake of everyone who meets that guy that there really is a God, if that's the only thing keeping him from killing and raping people (not to mention the puddle of piss thing. That was really weird.)

But that exchange stayed in my head for years. It really bothered me for a long time that people actually think this way.

^^That is a very typical "christian" response. I've heard it numerous times, and you are right, that there is no response to that type of ignorance.
I usually say something like "If there weren't any jails, you'd be dead by now yourself". They sort of look at me like I just said I'd like to sit in a puddle of piss and crawl away.

I have learned this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others only do from fear of the law.

All this reminds me of the white guys who go around saying "black people can say the N word and I can't? Why is that? Why can't I say the N word?" I mean, why are they so keen to use the N word? Why would anyone actually want to use it? You just want to go around calling people N-words all day? Would that actually give you pleasure?

That's what philosophy is for. It teaches you good reasons why to behave yourself, so it makes sense to you, and you can feel more confident in the way you live your life. But at the same time, I recognize that this doesn't work for everyone, and some people just need to have the fear of punishment in them in order to keep them from turning into devils. I hope those people NEVER stop believing in God, for the sake of humanity.

Religion was a nice crutch that served a lot of useful functions as we made the long, slow march from caves to cubicles. Humanity is a little more grown up now and really needs to let go of santa claus, the tooth fairy, the resurrection, etc.

And how come when I tell a "Christian" that I believe in the existence of a Jesus, who was not divine, whose father was a Roman soldier (there's actually at least some legitimacy to this claim), and whose messages could come in handy they act like I just raped their mother?

There are no credible, contemporary accountings of the existence of Jesus at all. Even the Gospels were written many decades after the period when Jesus was to have lived. It doesn't seem to be productive to pick about minor differences such as his ancestry when his entire existence is purely a matter of faith. I'm OK with this actually, since there's no credible, contemporary accountings of the existence of any of the buddhas either. Just because the person whose words you read may not have been a real historical person does not diminish the power of those words.

Tru dat.

There are no credible, contemporary accountings of the existence of Jesus at all.
Isn't that because Jesus was born roughly 2000 years ago? There's no contemporary accountings of most people's great-great grandparents, let alone those pesky older generations. :)

For better or worse, we take a lot of historical entities' existence and nature as givens with a lot less "evidence" than the Gospels. History books feature many figures based on writings and such just as addled with poor memory, decades after the fact revisionism, other spin doctoring, botched translations, different and sometimes contradictory perspectives on the same event, etc.


I had a co-worker go nuts on me after I decided I was an atheist.
Did the co-worker smell "dirty fucking atheist" on you? Were you pimping it on the streets of Dearborn wearing "I <heart> atheists" Underroos *again*? Religion is one of those "don't ask, don't tell" sorts of things in the workplace, in my book. Unless you see a "buddy Christ" on a desk, you don't ask how many Catholics it takes to change a light bulb.

I think and feel everyone wants to know "Why", the big whys of the universe. What they come to embrace or not embrace as a result can sometimes have a profound impact on them and life around them, for good and ill. Science and religion come from the same questions in people's hearts. When we truly stop thinking and reacting to "Why", we're dead.

Fair enough re: existence of Jesus. Like I said, I'm a Buddhist, and Shakyamuni Buddha lived 500 years before Jesus. There sure aren't any historical documents about him either. I guess I just have to be OK with the fact that in certain places at certain times, history is part legend.

And no, I didn't go around telling people I was an atheist. I knew pretty much from the get-go that atheists and child molesters are pretty much the two most hated groups of people in America. I did not then and I do not now advertise to people, although I've never kept my religious beliefs secret if I'm asked.

EDIT: My dad always said to me that people don't discuss politics or religion among polite company. He's a wise man.

My own mother doesn't even know what I believe. Introversion FTW.

My own mother doesn't even know what I believe. Introversion FTW.

Boy oh boy, do I get you there. That is NOT a conversation I ever want to have.

Religion was a nice crutch that served a lot of useful functions as we made the long, slow march from caves to cubicles. Humanity is a little more grown up now and really needs to let go of santa claus, the tooth fairy, the resurrection, etc.

Again, welcome back.

I guess I just have to be OK with the fact that in certain places at certain times, history is part legend.
Yup. How you deal with the limits of your knowledge is a critical part to who you are. I'm not content with canned answers. The universe is many things, and it may be really simple to someone, but it's not simple to me.


And no, I didn't go around telling people I was an atheist. I knew pretty much from the get-go that atheists and child molesters are pretty much the two most hated groups of people in America.
That's why I used the term "dirty fucking atheist". I was trying to channel all the love people have for atheists. That's decidedly not how I feel personally!


EDIT: My dad always said to me that people don't discuss politics or religion among polite company. He's a wise man.
I try to keep it out of the workplace, at least, though Cthulhu often intrudes.

I try to keep it out of the workplace, at least, though Cthulhu often intrudes.

It's like in the movie Wargames, the only winning move is not to play. I'm like a ninja when it comes to dodging religion and politics at work. Short of showing up drunk, I don't know of a quicker way to make people quietly tag you as "unprofessional" with all the subtle consequences and missed opportunities that entails.

yeap. mixing religion with everyday talk is a bad move.

and honestly, im a little disapointed in zip. as my favorite poster, i'd have hoped he could do better than judge a group from there very bottom. its ok zip, you can be as unapolgeticaly anti-christian as you like and i'll still enjoy reading your writing.

xoxo
b-diddy

Nice touch Diddy.

thanks.

xoxo
b-diddy