http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/ian_thomsen/07/12/pistons/index.html


Pistons banking on young reserves for energy boost

Posted: Thursday July 12, 2007 2:31PM

LAS VEGAS -- Is Dallas still relevant after losing in the first round to Golden State? Do the Suns have another run at the title in them? Are the Cavaliers likely to build on their Eastern Conference championship?

You may answer "yes'' to all such questions, but for the teams themselves, the future is never assured. Even Spurs coach Gregg Popovich admitted -- shortly after winning his third championship in five years -- to worrying earlier in the season that he might have lost his team, that it might be tired of hearing his demands. As much as the Spurs dominated the playoffs, Popovich had questioned a few months earlier if they could regain their form.

Joe Dumars understands. "If you've ever walked that championship road, you know how hard it is, how fortunate you have to be to get there,'' the Pistons' president said. "You never hear champions talk casually about what it takes, and when you miss an opportunity, it's devastating because you never know when that opportunity will come again.''

Dumars considered making a major trade to improve his starting lineup after Detroit ceded its 2-0 lead to Cleveland in the conference finals. "If the right opportunity had presented itself, I wouldn't have hesitated,'' he said. But he was never going to tear down his lineup and start over.

Instead, he is planning to make another run with the 2003-04 championship core that has reached the last five Eastern finals. For all of the talk that the Pistons are yesterday's news, Dumars notes that his team lost three games to Cleveland by a total of 12 points. Instead of a makeover, maybe all Detroit needs is a little extra push to get through its conference and back to the Finals.

That's why he is presenting coach Flip Saunders with four young players off the bench -- Jason Maxiell, Amir Johnson and first-round rookies Rodney Stuckey (No. 15 overall) and Arron Afflalo (No. 27) -- to provide jolts of caffeine to a team that has seen and done everything already. The Pistons have played 99 postseason games over the last five years, and Dumars is empathetic.

"These guys are human,'' he said. "We ask them to play into May or June every single year for the last five years, and so when they get into January, February and March, they need something to get excited about.''

The 6-5 Stuckey has emerged as one of the best players at the NBA Summer League here, averaging 19.3 points, four rebounds and 2.7 assists in his first three games for the Pistons. During his two years at Eastern Washington, he was forced to take on all roles to help his team win -- scoring, playmaking, rebounding and defending.

"When you play for the Eastern Washingtons and the McNeese States of the world,'' said Dumars, whose Hall of Fame career began at McNeese State, "no job is too big. There were times on the floor he would make big-time plays and he just didn't have the talent around him to complete the play. I watched him closely for his reaction to his teammates, and he always reacted the right way -- he never showed an attitude or a negative reaction.''

Dumars envisions Stuckey as a combo guard capable of playing alongside Chauncey Billups or Richard Hamilton. Afflalo will take over for inconsistent Carlos Delfino, who was recently moved to Toronto to open up a backcourt spot for the 6-5 rookie from UCLA. Others in the Pistons' front office see in Afflalo the same traits of character and leadership that Dumars brought as a Pistons player two decades ago.

Dumars is following a simple formula. When Billups, Hamilton and Ben Wallace were young, he complemented them with veterans off the bench. Now that his starters are in their late 20s to early 30s, the bench needs to grow younger. That's why Dumars is anticipating bigger roles for young forwards Maxiell and Johnson, both of whom are highly valued within the organization. Against smaller lineups, the Pistons may follow the Spurs' lineup and shift Rasheed Wallace to center with Maxiell starting at power forward; depending on free agent Chris Webber's future with the team, the Pistons could also go traditionally big with a front line of Nazr Mohammed and Rasheed Wallace. It's obvious that the Pistons are trending away from waning veterans like Webber in order to revitalize their team with younger, lively legs.

The transition to youth off the bench will present issues. There will inevitably be ugly stretches and frustration with how much Stuckey and the others have yet to learn. But the Pistons' goal will be to finish April with a better second unit than they've had in recent years, one that could ultimately inspire their elder starters.

"The question has to be, Are we good enough?'' Dumars said. "When we were swept in the 2003 conference finals by New Jersey, I said we're not good enough. I look at us now and I see that we're still good enough.''

the East still suckz, its not like the Cavs or Bulls are far superior teams, we still should be the best team in the east, and we should have the best chance of any east team to get to the finals right now...that said, if they won't play their best ball in April/May any of the other teams can beat the Pistons

If the young guys play to potential, we can win it all. If they don't, we won't.

Nice find. I'm looking forward to these kids in the rotation.

If the young guys play to potential, we can win it all. If they don't, we won't.


What if their potential is less than that of other teams players we aren't familiar with?

What if their potential is less than that of other teams players we aren't familiar with?

Then I guess everybody's bench gets a massive upgrade next season, because that's what we have the potential for.

That said, I still think our starters are good enough to win a title, providing they get quality bench support. They can't carry us every game like they used to, but I think they're still a very dangerous unit.

Then I guess everybody's bench gets a massive upgrade next season, because that's what we have the potential for.



The Bulls have the potential for a monster bench and a ton of growth in the starting 5. We could lose in the 2nd round and play much, much better than last year.

we'd need stuckey getting ROY talk off the bench, find a serviceable big man, a reliable backup 3 (it could be aflalo) and on top of that we'd still need flip to show that he's more than a competent head coach.

and thats to get out of the east. finals we'd have to count on luck.

anyone want to find odds on the stones winning it? you'd be a fool to put money on odds worse than 15-1.

I believe that's what it was.

The Bulls have the potential for a monster bench and a ton of growth in the starting 5. We could lose in the 2nd round and play much, much better than last year.

You're using youth as a reason, They didn't add anybody except mr. redundant Noah.

By that token, half the highschool teams in the country could be better than us in 2007. Look at all the youth!

Our starters DOMINATED the Bulls last year, and their bench can't get much better than it already is.

Where they needed help against us was low post scoring, and they got none. GREAT offseason for them....

We nearly swept the Bulls last year, and added more pieces to the roster than they did.

we nearly swept them, and then our offense went into the shithouse (AGAIN) and they nearly upset us. if we dont comeback from down like 20 in game 3 we very well lose in the second round.

i dont even know how to respond to your "youth" argument. i mean, honestly. all it is is homerism. you dont see that a 3rd to 4th, 4th to 5th, 2nd to 3rd, 1st to second year player is going to get better? i mean, that would be convenient, but its not true. unfortunatly, guys do tend to lose a step once they get over 30, or play ~100 playoff games in a stretch of years.

and as far as calling noah redundant, which maybe he is (i dont think so) atleast paxson made a redundant pick at 4/5, rather than at 2, and also took the unanimous bpob.

but you are correct, they didnt add a post player (yet).

i dont even know how to respond to your "youth" argument. i mean, honestly. all it is is homerism. you dont see that a 3rd to 4th, 4th to 5th, 2nd to 3rd, 1st to second year player is going to get better? i mean, that would be convenient, but its not true. unfortunatly, guys do tend to lose a step once they get over 30, or play ~100 playoff games in a stretch of years.
.

they lose a step?

You mean like, oh say, Chicago's team captain, Ben Wallace? Does his decline magically not matter?

...do Ben Gordon and Kirk Hinrich have the "potential" to grow 3 more inches each?

If not, then they're just going to get crapped on by Rip and CHauncey over a full series.



and as far as calling noah redundant, which maybe he is (i dont think so) atleast paxson made a redundant pick at 4/5, rather than at 2, and also took the unanimous bpob.

Um, Chicago had a legit backup 4/5. We didn't have a back-up 1/2, and his skills are CERTAINLY not redundant to this team.

Now they can field the greatest collection of non-scoring big men in NBA history. Yay for them.


but you are correct, they didn't add a post player (yet)



...and they won't, either. Their GM is the master of never trading anybody. They could have gotten Gasol and decided to eat shit from us instead.

You're using youth as a reason, They didn't add anybody except mr. redundant Noah.

By that token, half the highschool teams in the country could be better than us in 2007. Look at all the youth!

Our starters DOMINATED the Bulls last year, and their bench can't get much better than it already is.

Where they needed help against us was low post scoring, and they got none. GREAT offseason for them....

We nearly swept the Bulls last year, and added more pieces to the roster than they did.


There is an intrinsic potential in young athletes, and until you acknowlege that I will consider this post one of your typical "Sense my arguement was weak, if I rant enough, maybe they just won't respond" posts. Then when you do that, I will respond to the rest of this silly post.

Yep. The Bulls will be better than us this year simply because they're a year older. Great insight.

we nearly swept them, and then our offense went into the shithouse (AGAIN) and they nearly upset us. if we dont comeback from down like 20 in game 3 we very well lose in the second round.

i dont even know how to respond to your "youth" argument. i mean, honestly. all it is is homerism. you dont see that a 3rd to 4th, 4th to 5th, 2nd to 3rd, 1st to second year player is going to get better? i mean, that would be convenient, but its not true. unfortunatly, guys do tend to lose a step once they get over 30, or play ~100 playoff games in a stretch of years.

and as far as calling noah redundant, which maybe he is (i dont think so) atleast paxson made a redundant pick at 4/5, rather than at 2, and also took the unanimous bpob.

but you are correct, they didnt add a post player (yet).


Let it go man. Young players don't get better. To think that Deng, Thomas, Kirk, Duhon, Gordon, Thabo, and Noah have no room to grow is silly talk.

You've been making a fool of this kid for a year now, maybe it's time to just leave him alone.

Yep. The Bulls will be better than us this year simply because they're a year older. Great insight.


Never said that or anything like that. Is this your next step in a corner, try and just make things up?

DUDE, YOU SAID CHAUNCEY MAY NOT BE DONE GROWING!

...and our players are all magically going to fall off the map next year, while chicago's players all become hall of famers!

Never said that or anything like that. Is this your next step in a corner, try and just make things up?



Um, actually, you did.


The Bulls have the potential for a monster bench and a ton of growth in the starting 5.

Moron.

The Bulls didn't add but one guy this offseason. Where is the rest of their improvement going to come from again?

Any day now, Hermy.. I'm waiting for some more of your brilliant insight in the 2008 NBA champions Chicago Bulls...

Um, actually, you did.



Moron.

The Bulls didn't add but one guy this offseason. Where is the rest of their improvement going to come from again?

Any day now, Hermy.. I'm waiting for some more of your brilliant insight in the 2008 NBA champions Chicago Bulls...

I'll say it again, tell me there isn't intrinsic potential for improvement in youth that is greater than that of a veteran. Simply answer that question with your next post, yes or no, nothing else. I dare you.

I'll say it again, tell me there isn't intrinsic potential for improvement in youth that is greater than that of a veteran. Simply answer that question with your next post, yes or no, nothing else. I dare you.

Say that you didn't just imply the Bulls would be better than us by virtue of being a year older.

To limit your response I'm going to demand you say yes, no, or nothing else.

I dare you.

Ben Gordon and Kirk Hinrich could gain 5 years worth of "intrinsic potential" for all I care. They're still going to get killed in the post by Chauncey and Rip. They can't "potential" their way out of being undersized and easy to post up.

No.

No.

http://www.wtfdetroit.com/forums/showpost.php?p=178775&postcount=18

That about sums it up...

Keep setting up those straw man arguments, though. Eventually, one might get taken seriously.

Yes younger players have more potential for growth. My little nephew has more "potential" for growth than either Hinrich or Ben Gordon. Doesn't mean he's going to be in the NBA anytime soon. In the grand scheme of things, that doesn't mean shit.

Are Hinrich and Gordon going to be a better backcourt than Billups/Rip next year?

No.

Is Deng going to be a better matchup against Prince next year?

Probably not.

Ar the Bulls going to be a better team if out 1-2-3 guys keep beating the shit out of their 1-2-3 guys?

Nope.

Does the fact they're younger mean much as far as 2008 goes?

Nope.

the only person i see making bold (read: absurd) statements is you. saying that the bulls should improve from within is probably a given if you ask most nba "experts". its just your own grasping at nothing when you say we're predicting the bulls to beat the pistons. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT.

saying that they should be better, and that they'd have a better chance to beat us, is different than the constant bullshit predictions that you constantly post.

its just your own grasping at nothing when you say we're predicting the bulls to beat the pistons. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT.




The Bulls have the potential for a monster bench and a ton of growth in the starting 5. We could lose in the 2nd round and play much, much better than last year.

I'm sorry, where are my manners. Please forgive me...

certainly there was no implication between the bulls getting better and us losing a round earlier. Silly me.

Post says they have "The potential for a monster bench and a ton of growth in the starting 5", which is not only not me implying "The Bulls are better than us by virtue of being a year older", it's not close.

As with any arguement with K-stat, if you force him to find fact in an arguement, he'll just start making things up. All I ever said was the Bulls had potential.

I asked you if other teams meet their potential as well as us, would we still have a chance. You said that would improve other teams benches. I implied that teams (like the Bulls) have potential in places other than the bench, and we as a team may improve and still lose earlier than now, and you began making up stories.

Is any of this not what happened?

the only person i see making bold (read: absurd) statements is you. saying that the bulls should improve from within is probably a given if you ask most nba "experts". its just your own grasping at nothing when you say we're predicting the bulls to beat the pistons. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT.

saying that they should be better, and that they'd have a better chance to beat us, is different than the constant bullshit predictions that you constantly post.


Holy shit, it's like you read my posts as opposed to just responding like a ferrell badger.

in one sentence you said the bulls had a ton of potential, and in the next you said we could have a worse season next year and get passed up by other teams, even if we play better.

Yep, no correlation there....

your grasping at straws.

shouldnt you be watching the summer league game? i was hoping to read tonight your final thought about whether afflalo is going to be inducted into the hall of fame when he retires.

in one sentence you said the bulls had a ton of potential, and in the next you said we could have a worse season next year and get passed up by other teams, even if we play better.

Yep, no correlation there....


Note the difference between "have" potential and "could" beat us.

Are you willing to argue either of these statements?

Can we just put this into the terrordome with the title "K-sat just being
K-stat"?

your grasping at straws.

shouldnt you be watching the summer league game? i was hoping to read tonight your final thought about whether afflalo is going to be inducted into the hall of fame when he retires.

There's a bulls fan rally going on somewhere. SHouldn't you be attending?

The Bulls have the potential for a monster bench and a ton of growth in the starting 5. We could lose in the 2nd round and play much, much better than last year.
The Bulls are an inside scorer away from beating us imo. They didnt address that though.

There's a bulls fan rally going on somewhere. SHouldn't you be attending?
Why is every fan who sees the other teams as a threat that team's new fan to you(outside of the darko loving B_diidy)?

The Bulls are an inside scorer away from beating us imo. They didnt address that though.

I agree with that, because I don't think the team will reach it's potential.

Atlanta Hawks 100-1


Boston Celtics 100-1


Charlotte BobCats 100-1


Chicago Bulls 10-1


Cleveland Cavaliers 10-1


Dallas Mavericks 7-2


Denver Nuggets 20-1


Detroit Pistons 10-1


Golden State Warriors 30-1


Houston Rockets 20-1


Indiana Pacers 100-1


Los Angeles Clippers 50-1


Los Angeles Lakers 50-1


Memphis Grizzlies 100-1


Miami Heat 10-1


Milwaukee Bucks 100-1


Minnesota T-Wolves 100-1


New Jersey Nets 60-1


New Orleans Hornets 60-1


New York Knicks 100-1


Orlando Magic 40-1


Philadelphia 76ers 100-1


Phoenix Suns 7-2


Portland Blazers 60-1


Sacramento Kings 100-1


San Antonio Spurs 5-1


Seattle Sonics 60-1


Toronto Raptors 40-1


Utah Jazz 20-1


Washington Wizards 60-1

kstat you should write sportsbook and demand that they they change the odds, its ridiculous that they have detroit and chicago being the same.

The Cavs beat us, and they don't have better odds either...

Chicago is younger, and the natural progression for players is that they get better as they approach their peak, Bulls are on one side of the mountain and the Pistons are on the other. If I had to take a longshot I'd take Charlotte at 100-1.

The Spurs have been on the other side of the mountain for a while now...

Aside from Parker, that whole roster is past its prime.

Yet they still win championships.

Popovich and Duncan will do that. I don't like the Bulls at all, but realistically Deng and Thomas should get better. Hinrich and Gordon can't get any worse on D.

How well the Bulls do next year depends just as much on Paxson as it does on the young players improving, IMO.

Both of those aspects are important, but if only one of them happens, then they'll probably only be marginally better than 06/07.

If Paxson grows some nuts and makes a good deal for a low post threat without giving up the farm AND if the remaining young core makes progress from last year, they should be the favorites in the East.

How well the Bulls do next year depends just as much on Paxson as it does on the young players improving, IMO.

Both of those aspects are important, but if only one of them happens, then they'll probably only be marginally better than 06/07.

If Paxson grows some nuts and makes a good deal for a low post threat without giving up the farm AND if the remaining young core makes progress from last year, they should be the favorites in the East.
Its become apparrent that no team isnt taking a package w/o gordon or Deng in it. He seems not to like this I guess. deng is fire, But getting gasol in return woulda been worth it imo, if Nocioni was better. Unfortunately he looks like poo to me.