Ok, this may get moved to the terrordome if people take it the wrong way, but really I want to find out what the rest of the board thinks.

Do all "championships" matter? You can't just pick and choose here, either they all do or only one. If they all do, we're talking about conference championships (regular season) in both football and basketball, conference championships (tournament) in basketball, NIT championships (because regardless of your argument, it's easier to win a WAC conference tournament than it is the NIT, and the NCAA calls it a championship), a Final Four bid (aka Regional Championship), and any other you can think of.

Or, is the only meaningful championship the one and only National Championship?

Check other threads and it's very obvious where both the pissy mods of this forum stand. I'll hold off on some of my reasoning until later.

I'm anxious to see what people from all school bases think about this.

(also, IBSSFROTNIT)

Mark one down for terrordome because this is just stupid in the NCAA forum.

Really? You somehow find NCAA Championships irrelevent to the NCAA forum?
Meanwhile, we have 5 votes and no one willing to explain their reasoning.

I guess I don't have a problem with the thread going away if the interest isn't there, but it's something that has been talked about before without ever generating a majority opinion, so I figured people might want to address it once and for all.

I'm guessing Spartans will tend to lean toward counting everything, since there is so much Spartan success riding on legitizing those. Meanwhile, if you go to the official NCAA website and click on "Past Champions", it only gives you one team per year. That's good enough for me. That's what the country remembers.

Tre will say I don't want to count others because Michigan doesn't win those. Still busy blaming the other guy. He says Michigan can't even sniff any kind of basketball championship without paying a quarter of a million. Let's see, in a field of 336 teams, only 12 have won any real championship since the last time Michigan won it, and that was done without a checkbook.

I think some people just want to hold dear to smaller marks to help justify success, when in reality they've fallen short of the ultimate goal.

As a Michigan football fan, I could care less how many Big Ten titles they've won. I honestly don't even know. I think Mood does and counters with it when talking to Tre, but it means nothing to me. They did not win a championship other than 97. The others are crap.

I think Final Fours are pretty significant. People do actually remember those, which is quite different from every other sport. In College Football, I think the championship is the best, but a big bowl win is good. I would put the National Championships as first, then the final four, and then a BCS win.

I think Final Fours are OK to brag about myself. It's a tournament, and you have to win four games just to get there. There really isn't a football equivalent, because in football, it's mostly a beauty contest, and bullshit like "travelling fans" and TV appeal are factored in.
As a matter of fact, a Frozen Four is probably every bit as impressive as a BCS game. You still got to play your way in.

Just to get the WHOLE conversation in this thread and stop the two-thread discussion:


If Izzo lands that crew, we are talking Championships, Championships, Championships. You give Izzo the best talent in the country and nobody has a chance. He's proven he can beat the nation's best coaches with close to the talent, give him more and it's over. Outside of 2000, there has never been a better time to be a Spartan, I truly believe that.


Hey Tre, I've copied that and have it saved to my hard drive. Just to make it more specific for either giving props or taking a cheap shot, do you care to be more specific? Are you talking about junk championships, like Big 10 championships or "regional championships", or championships people around the country actually remember, like the kind that only one team can claim every year, the kind Florida has a pair of?


I'm talking about the Championships that you could only dream of as a Michigan fan. I guess that would include every kind of Championship there is- BT, BT Tourney, Regional, National. Keep posting about "Regional Championships" while you jerk off about the idea of a Maize and Blue Final Four Trophy won by players that wouldn't come to Michigan even if you did find somebody else to offer them 250 K. (Zeller anyone?)


Wow, somebody's a little pissy. For all your championship talk, you sure can't handle putting something behind it.
Way to bail on YOUR team and just point fingers across the state. Try actually backing something up next time.
When people say Michigan football hasn't won a NC lately, my first response is NOT, "yeah, well State sucks" followed by sticking my tongue out.
Remember, I'm the guy that doesn't circle jerk over "championships" that have been invented to help more than one team feel good about themselves.


You are either very weak or very dumb. If you think celebrating a Final Four is unacceptable or somehow an attempt to "create a championship" you are probably the only person (as well as the rest of the UM apologists) in the country that thinks that. The fact that you try to detract from what MSU basketball has achieved over the last decade shows what a petty and very typical UM fan you are.


Ok, that's one way to read what I said and interpret it, if you're retarded.

Listen now and remember forever, congrats to anyone that goes to the Sweet Sixteen, Elite Eight, or Final Four. Well done. Very few teams get there. Nice season.

However, only your school and it's fans will remember what you did. The NCAA site has ONE CHAMPION. That's it. Go ahead and tell people you went to the final four. But you didn't win a championship. Your season ended with a loss, did it not? Are you satisfied with that? If so, why even bother having your team show up for the next game? They met their goal, right? Not for me. I want THE championship. There is one, and only one, that counts as being a champion in my mind.

If you are completely elated, happy, content with no more than that, fine. Enjoy. Just be honest with your recruits so they don't accidentally strive for more.

As for meaningful championships, does the WWE "Intercontinental Championship" count as much as the WWE "Heavywieght Championship"?

In todays's world there is only 1 thing that counts and that is the NC.

I want to know who voted that all championships are meaningful. Because basically I never want to hear anyone discount a NIT championship again.

Big Ten titles, regional NCAA titles in B-Ball and Baseball are nice, but at the end of the day the only thing that matters is being #1. I would say the mystical NC Sears Cup (or whatever it is called now) is more important than any conference title.

The NIT is the crown jewel of sports

Postseason NIT, of course.

I think Final Fours are pretty significant. People do actually remember those, which is quite different from every other sport. In College Football, I think the championship is the best, but a big bowl win is good. I would put the National Championships as first, then the final four, and then a BCS win.

You are exactly right and anyone that disagrees with you is doing so because they don't want to give MSU props for doing the almost unthinkable going to 4 of the last 8.

Let me ask you this Tre. You guys got so much talent coming in, would you be happy with just a couple final four appearances? "Championships, Championships, Championships. " That is what you said with the talent he is bringing in....not Final Fours, Final Fours, Final Fours or even Big Ten Championships, but National Championships.

If MSU had been in 4 out of 8 FF and not won a championship, it would have been a failure, but because he actually won 1 NC, it makes the other 3 FF appearances worth more. I am not saying FF are not notice, but me personally if you think you are good enough for a NC than anything else has got to be disappointing.

Now if you go beyond your expectations and reach a FF, that is worth a lot.

Every year every college coach in America dreams of taking his team to the Final Four. It is listed as one of three goals that EVERY team names, Conference Championship, Final Four (Regional Championship), and National Championship. Don't believe me, ask a major coach what his goals are and I guarantee I just nailed them. The fans hope to see their team walk up one by one and cut down a net that they will keep in their school's trophy case FOREVER. CBS and ESPN start airing commercials and advertisements in December and they are titled, THE ROAD TO THE FINAL FOUR. March Madness begins and the biggest sporting spectacle begins as fans fill out their brackets and take off work to watch the games. Days 1 and 2 of the NCAA tournament were named in one study as the most unproductive work days in the US. The question, "Who you got in your Final Four?" is uttered a couple million times from Sunday to Game 1 on Thursday. As teams are eliminated and we reach those unbelievable Elite 8 games, the media is in a frenzy. You won't see anything on ESPN other than Final Four coverage. The teams win their Region, they are handed a Regional Championship trophy, teams storm the court, some players and coaches cry, hats, tshirts, etc. are passed out. Newspapers are printed that minute with full page spreads of the celebration. Books like "One Shining Season" or Illinois' "A Season to Remember" are written on FINAL FOUR seasons. BOOKS! http://espn.go.com/media/ncw/2006/0327/photo/a_langhorne_195.jpg

This is all done for an accomplishment that is not a Championship and is simply "nice" according to some Michigan fans here. Your motives are obvious and you are backed by NOBODY in the rest of the country. Your opinions would be laughed at by D-1 coaches and people like Jay Bilas or Dick Vitale. We know why you make your arguement. It is to discount the unbelievable accomplishments made by Michigan State Basketball. I find it pathetic.

BTW, another comedic thing that UM fans have claimed is that Regional Championships/Final Fours are not remembered. BULLSHIT! You name the school and I can tell you whether they've been to the Final Four and if it was recent. Go ahead think about it Jethro and Art, I'll name some schools right now, I bet you know immediately whether or not they've been to the FF lately.

>MSU
>Minnesota
>George Mason
>Iowa
>Duke
>Illinois
>Michigan
>Kentucky
>Georgia

I guarantee you just read through that list and knew within 2 seconds whether or not that team has been to a Final Four recently or even in the past 20 years or so. WAIT, nobody remembers a team just going to the FF right?

This is impossible to prove for the simple fact that WE ARE ON THE INTERNET.

Thanks for offering me the chance to play though.

This is impossible to prove for the simple fact that WE ARE ON THE INTERNET.

Thanks for offering me the chance to play though.

I wasn't expecting you or Jethro to answer each one. I was asking you to go down the list and honestly ask yourself if you remember whether or not each team has been to a FF. I know that when you went down the list, it probably took you a second at the most to recall whether or not they've had that accomplishment. My way of proving to you that you do remember FF teams even if you want to convince yourself that you don't.

I find the whole argument pathetic. I would never try to downplay a Rose Bowl victory or a BCS bid and these can be lesser accomplishments than a FF. It's sad that fans would be this ridiculous.

I am not downplaying anything at all.

Just because my view doesnt fit what yours is doesnt mean yours is wrong or mine is right. It is my opinion alone.

The poll question doesnt ask me what others think. I just put a hypothetical too you about what you posted earlier about championships and no where did you mention FF.

You get all defensive and throw up your everyone is picking on poor MSU again and take yourself out of the debate because I stopped pretty much reading after you did that for the 2nd time.

Keep up the good fight that everyone is picking on MSU.

Though Final Fours are great, and BOOKS have been written about them (Wow, that's some serious validation. Some beat reporter for a school writes a book about his team going to the final four), if you go to them fairly regularly, and don;t ever win at least ONE NC, who really gives a fuck? You'll be viewed as a bridesmaid who can;t win the big one by anyone who isn't a fan of your team.

Though Final Fours are great, and BOOKS have been written about them (Wow, that's some serious validation. Some beat reporter for a school writes a book about his team going to the final four), if you go to them fairly regularly, and don;t ever win at least ONE NC, who really gives a fuck? You'll be viewed as a bridesmaid who can;t win the big one by anyone who isn't a fan of your team.

I'll accept that to some degree. #1 goal is a National Championship. If you've proven you can win it all as MSU has, then hyping a Regional Championship/Final Four is warranted.

Basically, Jethro was asking whether you celebrate all Championships the NCAA recognizes as a fan or do you only celebrate the National Championship. Why wouldn't you celebrate a Big Ten Championship? Why wouldn't you celebrate a Final Four? It's a great accomplishment. I think it's funny when you as a fan have higher standards than the actual coaches themselves. Lloyd Carr for example would be elated with a Big Ten Title this year and would celebrate it as an accomplishment with his team, but Jethro in Saginaw has higher standards and won't celebrate it...? Ridiculous.

Back in the day, when bowls were nothing more than invitational with nothing on the line but bragging rights, conference championships were more sought-after.

Hell, Notre Dame only decided to begin participating in bowl match-ups when the games began to COUNT.

IMO, conference titles are far more important. Everything else is gravy. The national title in football is opinion, and the national title in basketball (these days) is the luck of the draw.

Um, excuse me, but COUNTLESS Michigan fans are pissed because Lloyd is content with a Big Ten championship.

And as for using "THE ROAD TO THE FINAL FOUR" as your argument, try taking a marketing class sometime.

They also pimp the hell out of the BCS, yet we all dismiss that, do we not?

By the way, if you want to see who voted you can click on the vote number.

Another point, for everyone that voted for "all championships", you're hypocrates. You say certain things are meaningful, then I go into the Pistons forum, you know, with the team that has been in the final four 5 straight years and continually wins their division, and you want to blow the team up because they're terrible, Joe D needs to be fired, Flip Murray is as good as Mikey G at coaching, and you all know far more than anyone on the Pistons payroll.

Any title is a plus. In basketball, the final four is a good accomplishment. As a football fan, Wisconsin battling up the polls every year a bowl win at all is good (although I think this year they will start high, but the first loss knocks them WAY down). It depends on your school and sport though. If you are a Miami football fan two losses means your season sucked. If you are a Duke basketball fan not making the final four, let alone a title, means your season sucked. All in all, as a Wisconsin fan, im happy with B10 titles, final four, bowl victory, etc etc.

edit: Jethro, since you posted twice while I was typing this... Im on this forum as a Pistons fan but I havent bitched about blowing up the team or anything. Just wanted to make that point ;)

So when Tre says Izzo will win Championships, repeated three times, with these recruiting classes - hyopthetically if he wins 2 conference championships and goes to 1 final four, that's a success? For what some are calling three consecutive top 5 classes? I'm sorry, but if the roles were reversed and that's the best my team did, I would be absolutely pissed (and it has happened, and I have been).

I think the rest of you are just trying to find something to reassure you.
Remember, I'm giving props to all those other accomplishments. Yes, they're good. Yes, they're far better than what the vast majority of other teams accomplish. I just can't buy into calling them championships. Seriously, when I ask the question "How many championships has Lloyd Carr won?", the answer should be ONE. When asked how many championships has Dean Smith won, do people add up all the conference championships and final fours, or do they only include national championships?

Guys stay in school to win a championship all the time, even after they've been to the final four, because they aren't satisfied with it. So it sounds like 9 of you have lower standards than the players themselves.

Clearly I'm the minority here, and this poll has proved it. The 9 of you can celebrate, I suppose, but I'm extremely dissappointed. Enjoy your "championships". I guess I'll see you at the make-believe parades.

You win the game you're playing. If that's against the best of the best, great. If its against Omaha's finest, so be it.

So when Tre says Izzo will win Championships, repeated three times, with these recruiting classes - hyopthetically if he wins 2 conference championships and goes to 1 final four, that's a success? For what some are calling three consecutive top 5 classes? I'm sorry, but if the roles were reversed and that's the best my team did, I would be absolutely pissed (and it has happened, and I have been).

I think the rest of you are just trying to find something to reassure you.
Remember, I'm giving props to all those other accomplishments. Yes, they're good. Yes, they're far better than what the vast majority of other teams accomplish. I just can't buy into calling them championships. Seriously, when I ask the question "How many championships has Lloyd Carr won?", the answer should be ONE. When asked how many championships has Dean Smith won, do people add up all the conference championships and final fours, or do they only include national championships?

Guys stay in school to win a championship all the time, even after they've been to the final four, because they aren't satisfied with it. So it sounds like 9 of you have lower standards than the players themselves.

Clearly I'm the minority here, and this poll has proved it. The 9 of you can celebrate, I suppose, but I'm extremely dissappointed. Enjoy your "championships". I guess I'll see you at the make-believe parades.

What, exactly, were YOU doing when you were 19? Playing for a national title? Playing in front of million of viewers, with billions of dollars on the line?

When I was 19, I was in college with a part time job, worrying about pledging a fraternity and how I'm gonna fix my POS Toyota Celica.

If you wanna talk "meaningful championships", how about the shitty Padres "winning" the NL West some time back with a near .500 record, compared to the '69 Mets and their amazing September run at the Cubs.

Let's not talk children, here. All of you fuckwads are about as bad as some prick dad who roughs up a Tee Ball coach because he pulled his son in the late innings.

Well, it looks like someone certainly doesn't understand the importance of a Midwest Hooters League Class D T-Ball championship!

Well, it looks like someone certainly doesn't understand the importance of a Midwest Hooters League Class D T-Ball championship!

That's Rookie League, son. Class DD is the bigs.

Doesn't matter. If that dumbfuck drunk coach pulls my daughter in the late innings, his ass is GRASS.

What, exactly, were YOU doing when you were 19? Playing for a national title? Playing in front of million of viewers, with billions of dollars on the line?

When I was 19, I was in college with a part time job, worrying about pledging a fraternity and how I'm gonna fix my POS Toyota Celica.

If you wanna talk "meaningful championships", how about the shitty Padres "winning" the NL West some time back with a near .500 record, compared to the '69 Mets and their amazing September run at the Cubs.

Let's not talk children, here. All of you fuckwads are about as bad as some prick dad who roughs up a Tee Ball coach because he pulled his son in the late innings.

Aren't you partially making my point here? Those of you who said ALL championships count would include those Padres. I'm saying that no one should ever look back and say they won a championship, yet 9 of you said they did.

And don't compare yourself to these players. No other part of their life is the same as yours or mine, so trying to link this one is ridiculous. These kids have been told since they were in 6th grade how great they were. Even the mediocre ones have had someone telling them professional sports was an option for them. None of us can understand their life.

In the NCAA there are 115+ or so teams to compete against. Sure some are scrubs, but its not like the NBA or NFL where there are 30 or 32 teams to compete against. You can argue than in NCAA there are only 30 decent teams to compete against, but shit happens (George Mason). I think smaller accomplishments are worthy of pride in the NCAA other than a national championship. Example: Im proud as hell of Wisc going 12-1 last year, with the only loss going to you UM fans.

In the NCAA there are 115+ or so teams to compete against. Sure some are scrubs, but its not like the NBA or NFL where there are 30 or 32 teams to compete against. You can argue than in NCAA there are only 30 decent teams to compete against, but shit happens (George Mason). I think smaller accomplishments are worthy of pride in the NCAA other than a national championship. Example: Im proud as hell of Wisc going 12-1 last year, with the only loss going to you UM fans.

Exactly, Jethro is comparing finishing in the Final Four of 32 teams to finishing in the Final Four of 115. Good point Jethro, you gotta be kidding.

Hey Jethro, while you try to argue against my points, the score is 10-3 homeboy. Apparantly, Championships mean something to just about all the fans here.

Let me really break down the Jethro point of view. According to Jethro, Michigan has had 1 successful season in his ENTIRE LIFE! And that was a split NC, so maybe that doesn't even count according to him. 1 freaking year you were happy as a UM fball fan. Wow! Depressing. I would hate to take this point of view on Championships. I'd like to be happy after the season is finished once in awhile.

Glad I'm on the other side of the fence, I'd hate to spend 99.9% of my life pissed off as a sports fan because my team "failed."

Hey Jethro, while you try to argue against my points, the score is 10-3 homeboy. Apparantly, Championships mean something to just about all the fans here.

Let me really break down the Jethro point of view. According to Jethro, Michigan has had 1 successful season in his ENTIRE LIFE! And that was a split NC, so maybe that doesn't even count according to him. 1 freaking year you were happy as a UM fball fan. Wow! Depressing. I would hate to take this point of view on Championships. I'd like to be happy after the season is finished once in awhile.

Glad I'm on the other side of the fence, I'd hate to spend 99.9% of my life pissed off as a sports fan because my team "failed."

Remember that sig you had a while back, of Izzo? Those trophies in the foreground... what exactly WERE those? Big 10 championships, or school national championships? Just curious.

You win the game you're playing. If that's against the best of the best, great. If its against Omaha's finest, so be it.


That's why the NIT is so magical.

Exactly, Jethro is comparing finishing in the Final Four of 32 teams to finishing in the Final Four of 115. Good point Jethro, you gotta be kidding.

And you hype Big Ten championships, when 1 of 11 teams wins. So you're also kidding, right?

And you hype Big Ten championships, when 1 of 11 teams wins. So you're also kidding, right?

That's why it is goal #3. #1 NC, #2 Final Four/Regional Championship, #3 BT Title

Remember that sig you had a while back, of Izzo? Those trophies in the foreground... what exactly WERE those? Big 10 championships, or school national championships? Just curious.

If I remember correctly, it had all of his Championship trophies excluding BT Tournament Championship. And when I say Championship, yes I'm including Regional Championship.

So there were 4 BT Title trophies, 4 Final Four trophies, and the National Championship trophy sitting on the ground at his feet.

That's why it is goal #3. #1 NC, #2 Final Four/Regional Championship, #3 BT Title
This is the essence of the argument. Yes, NCs are #1, Final Fours (or major BCS win) is #2 and conference championship is #3. Jethro, I think you are making a big, dumbass deal out of nothing. Yes, NCs are best, but if that is the only accomplishment you recognize or enjoy, well, I think you are spreading the machismo a little too thick on a piece of toast that can`t handle it.

Jethro, I think you are making a big, dumbass deal out of nothing.

And that is why bukdow is commenting on it.

And that is why bukdow is commenting on it.
Although you focused in on words that carry a negative connotation, your overall comment makes no sense. No surprise to me. I just didn`t want you operating under yet one more delusion.

Although you focused in on words that carry a negative connotation, your overall comment makes no sense. No surprise to me. I just didn`t want you operating under yet one more delusion.

That was a blatant, uncalled-for, completely unecessary attack on our resident scroll, a relative "prince of prose".

Bukdow is Blossoming® at the right moment.

That was a blatant, uncalled-for, completely unecessary attack on our resident scroll, a relative "prince of prose".

Bukdow is Blossoming® at the right moment.

Even dandelions gotta bloom, McClain, but in the end, they're just worthless weeds.