Come on guys. You had to see it coming.

Well, I had faith in Joe until he seemed to miss out on several draft day trades and then takes 3 f%$#ing guards while passing on some other good players that the team actually NEEDS!! What were you thinking Joe? You draft Darko and give him away cheap and then you give Delfino away for nothing and now this. Sorry Joe but I have just lost faith in you. Are you grooming yourself to take over Millens job at keeping a team down???

I agree. I keep waiting for something to happen that makes it all make sense, but its just one shit move after another at the moment.

I think he's earned at least 1 more season of hardcore sucking before this becomes a sensible consideration.

we're kind of hamstrung. obviously, were on a strict budget.

this is worsened because joe decided to build a team of balanced, good players. its a juggling act just to keep it together, let alone improve it.

i wouldnt fire him based on tonights draft. im intrigued by stuckey. i didnt like aflalo, but we'll see. i could care less about #57.

but i think joe has been sloppy since picking up dice. with such a tight budget, we sure have wasted alot of money. what was it, 10 mill on dale davis? 5 on mo evans? 2 years to flip murray? 5 to linsdey? 30 to nazr??? trading for arroyo?

then there was the darko trade: can we call it a debacle yet?

right now we're just wading our way back to the field. after we lost ben last year, i'd have blown up the team and rebuilt with a different mentality. get one or two superstars, that i know nomatter what i can keep, and then just fill in the holes. atleast i can manage my budget, keep my core, and atleast theoretically improve my team.

what are we going to do to improve this team this summer? please. grant hill? even if he can stay healthy for a whole nother season again, dude is old now. hes not going to get us over the hump. and were not going to go pickup a big, MLE free agent.

pretty much the best we can hope for is that our core isnt much worse than it was last year, and that our young guys really kick ass (wouldnt bet on it). so last year we won 53 and made it to the finals, this year we probably win 50 and make it to the conferance semi finals. this would be bearable if we played an exciting brand of basketball or atleast had likeable stars on our team. but thats a negative on both accounts.

i'll probably tune in to check out a few games to see what this stuckey guy is like (never seen him). but i dont anticipate watching too many piston games.

i only partially blame joe. i think wilson/davidson have just about as much blame in this as anyone.

for the record, i wouldnt fire joe. not unless i knew who was coming in.

I am so pissed I dont know where to start

B-Diddy, I agree Joe isn't the only one to blame, the Old Man and his hand picked ass wiper are huge part of the problem. The wasting of money to avoid the luxary tax is beyond a sick ironic joke.

Hell if Joe would have been able to get 3 million in cash from toilet paper roll that Mr. D uses to wipe his ass, we could have bought an extra first and drafted a player who we needed.

The fact that this organization is so afraid of the luxury tax is a joke considering how much money Mr. D and his companies make per year. Like I said before, I get hating something if you tried it but the team won't even pay the luxary tax to win a championship, that is sick. Since the Big Nasty trade the cap and lux tax have been bigger issues than winning titles and that bothers me.

Anyone saying "Fire Joe Dumars" needs to identify someone else to take the spot. Does anyone think Hammond would do things much differently?

I think it's dumb to compare Dumars to Millen because of Darko. Yea it didn't work out, but at least he made the pick because he was listening to his scouts, instead of letting a clueless owner make the pick. The only horrible move Dumars made was Nazr. It's idiotic to fire the GM of a team that goes to the conference finals 5 years in a row, especially when you can't replace him with a sure thing.

I agree that the ownership is at fault as well, but I do NOT understand how Joe Dumars thinks this team can somehow pull it back together again. Grant Hill? Give me a break. Cheikh Samb isn't going to be the savior at center, nor is Stuckey going to score 20 a game. I just can't have faith in Amir Johnson, a late 2nd rounder, to become a star as well. It's possible, but I watched him play, and I still don't think his game is suited for the NBA at this point. He doesn't have great handles, so he won't be able to get past his man easily. He can only score around the paint consistently, and he's not strong enough to back down. OK Handles + Weak Strength = Minimal Paint opportunities.

This team isn't magically going to fix itself, Joe. Now that you fucked up in the draft too (outside of Stuckey, we'll see about him), I am really losing faith fast. Sign and trade Chauncey. Trade Rip and Sheed in a combo for something. Now, after this draft and some things we missed out on, this team won't win again. We can blow it up without going over the uxury tax threshold -- why not do it?

Maybe some people will think of us here as "chicken littles" because the Pistons still look good on paper. Well, guess what. We just don't have that team chemistry that we did in 2004, and that results from a bunch of guys coasting through all the games. Who's at fault for that? I have to point a finger at Flip Saunders. Ever since we hired him, this team has become a mess. Letting go of Larry Brown after he made it to game 7 in the Finals a year after winning the damn thing was pretty damn stupid. Now you may make the argument that Joe Dumars has gotten this team to the ECF 5 straight years, so you can't fire him either. But, I disagree. 4 of those years, this team has gotten worse and worse.

I could go on and on. I will for only a bit. Rip Hamilton - sure, he can score almost 20 a game, but he can't take over down the stretch. At least it seems like he's trying most of the game. I wouldn't mind keeping him around, but we'd have to overhaul elsewhere. I think a package with Rip and Sheed would garner the most attention. On that note, Rasheed - so, he played decently in the playoffs. But, it seems that when it becomes late in the 4th, Rasheed will panic when he touches the ball and force up bad shots. Same with Chauncey, who actually used to be a good decision maker. Fuck it, I'm done... for now.

It's time to make some moves, Joe. This team is going nowhere but down.

I think "fire" Joe Dumars is a bit extreme, but it's true that the last good move Dumars made was drafting Maxiell.

Since then, it's been bad move after bad move. think about it, the guy's reputation as a good GM is essentially because of 2001-2004. That was 3 years ago.

I wouldn't fire him, but I'd let him buy the team from Davidson and let someone else make the personnel decisions.

I think it's dumb to compare Dumars to Millen because of Darko. Yea it didn't work out, but at least he made the pick because he was listening to his scouts, instead of letting a clueless owner make the pick. The only horrible move Dumars made was Nazr. It's idiotic to fire the GM of a team that goes to the conference finals 5 years in a row, especially when you can't replace him with a sure thing.

The Millen comparison isn't just because of Darko. The comparison that I was talking about was inconsistant drafting and free agent signings. Every draft with the Lions is exciting until a after it happens. Then all of the fans are like......what? About a year or two after the draft, Lions fans are like....son of a b%$ch. The Pistons are headed in the same direction as of late. It's just very disappointing.

Anyone saying "Fire Joe Dumars" needs to identify someone else to take the spot. Does anyone think Hammond would do things much differently?

After this draft, I'm sure that we could find someone to do a better job than Joe as of late. Why am I so pissed off? Here's why:

We needed:

a backup PG
a backup SF
a backup C

We got three backup SG's!!!

At #15 we passed on Crittenton and Young

At #27 we passed on Splitter, Pruitt, Fazekas, H. Hill, McRoberts, Fesenko, Gasol.

There were several deals that were made and the Pistons weren't in on any of them. Even if it was a small deal like getting an extra second rd. pick it would have made a huge difference.

How much better would our drfat have been with:

#15 Young
#27 Pruitt
#36 Fesenko or McRoberts (grab an early second by buying it or in this case, offering Minny one or both of the Tor. 2nds for the pick Minny owes us.)
#57 Meija (I actually like this pick except for him being the 3rd SG)

All of a sudden we got a PG, SG, SF, and a C and had a great draft.

This is why I'm so disappointed in Joe and with his recent track record, I don't think it would be hard to find a replacement that could do a better job.

LOl @ "had a great draft" with a fist full of tirds, but they're the size tirds you like.

you say we had a bad draft the day after it...I just don't agree with that type of evaluation. And I think this year's team was better than last year's, so I don't think they're getting worse. I think Dice could have his best year as a Piston next year. Max is going to be better. Maybe Stuckey can turn out to be a PG some day but he can score and the Pistons needed that.

I think they will make it back to the conference finals again next year and I blame the loss to Cleveland on the players moreso than Joe. Too many critical mistakes by guys like Dice, C-Webb, even Tayshaun, my favorite player evar. And Sheed of course.

Firing the guy that has brought you to 5 straight conference finals might be a bit extreme. I'm pretty sure Joe has a lot of job security.

I think you guys might need to look at the big picture here. We already knew Joe couldn't draft. I myself, am not all that impressed with Young, but I don't know a whole lot about Stuckey. So maybe we should take the "let's wait and see" approach.

Well, until they actually play we have no idea who are busts and who are not. My initial reaction is WTF, we got 3 SG's?...but Young could end up being a bust for all we know.

Right now I am scratching my head for sure, but you never know. What if Stuckey turns out to be Ben Gordon (or even Wade), and Afflalo turns out to be Raja Bell? We'd be in great shape right now if we had Gordon and Bell on our bench. No way we lose to Cleveland and I doubt the Spurs beat us either.

If these guys are Wagner and Kieth Bogans (their worst case comparisons), then Joe has some serious explaining to do with his drafting.

Normally I'm 100% behind Joe D, but today I am wondering:

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x147/dspiewak/Excusemewtfrudoing.jpg

Firing the guy that has brought you to 5 straight conference finals might be a bit extreme. I'm pretty sure Joe has a lot of job security.

I think you guys might need to look at the big picture here. We already knew Joe couldn't draft. I myself, am not all that impressed with Young, but I don't know a whole lot about Stuckey. So maybe we should take the "let's wait and see" approach.

I'm sure that by me starting this thread, Joe isn't going to get fired because of it. What this thread does is plant the seeds that fans are unhappy with his choices. If he has an awesome off-season from this point on, he will be forgiven. If he continues to make poor decisions, then he should be held accountable and possibly lose his job. I haven't heard one poster think that Joe has actually done a "good" job so far this off season.

I'm not saying that you have any control over his job security.

What I am saying is that teams go through ups and downs. The Pistons have been the best team in the East for 4 years now. The last two years have been trying because our expectations have been high - and rightfully so. We have had the best starting lineup in the league since we acquired Sheed. That's all Joe - he has put us in position to be great. He may not be the best drafter, but we all knew that.

The problem is our coach - Saunders cannot coach nor motivate. We overachieved with the two previous coaches, and have underachieved with Saunders. Now you can say it's Joe's fault for keeping Flip - and I agree. But let's not fire the guy that has been the key to Detroit's success for the last 20 years.

To be honest, this thread kinda makes me ashamed to be a Pistons fan, since that's what most of you guys consider yourselves. The draft was definitely not as bad as you're all making it sound.

First, I think Stuckey can be a fine player for us if we use him the right way. The only thing Young has on Stuckey is three point shooting, and we all know we don't need that. We need someone who can put the ball on the floor and drive into traffic, and Stuckey CAN do that.

Afflalo DOES address what we needed in terms of a backup for Tay. He is a good defender and was UCLA's leading scorer. Personally, I'm very confident in what he can do backing up Tay. Plus, there is still the possibility of someone else coming in through a trade (dumping Flip Murray, Nazr).

The sky isn't falling, everyone. Relax. I know the natural reaction is to freak out when things don't exactly go our way. But look at last offseason. We lost Ben, who was "the heart and soul of our team," and most people predicted we'd finish in the bottom half of the East playoff teams. Instead, we had the best record and came within one freak LeBron performance from another Finals berth. It's clear enough to me that to doubt this team is not usually a good plan.

I'm not saying that you have any control over his job security.

What I am saying is that teams go through ups and downs. The Pistons have been the best team in the East for 4 years now. The last two years have been trying because our expectations have been high - and rightfully so. We have had the best starting lineup in the league since we acquired Sheed. That's all Joe - he has put us in position to be great. He may not be the best drafter, but we all knew that.

The problem is our coach - Saunders cannot coach nor motivate. We overachieved with the two previous coaches, and have underachieved with Saunders. Now you can say it's Joe's fault for keeping Flip - and I agree. But let's not fire the guy that has been the key to Detroit's success for the last 20 years.

You have some very valid points. Expectations are high but at the same time, this team has/had the pieces in place to truley be something special. I give Joe a ton of credit for building up the Pistons into a great team but now he and the team appear to be slipping. If he isn't great at drafting, he should bring in someone who is to help out.

If a business owner does great job of building up his company but then later makes choices that cause it to crumble, was he ever successful? Joe D has helped up to two finals but our team is slipping. Several other teams in the East get stronger as we stay even or get worse. We currently have several gaping holes and this off-season will be very important. As of now, I see Detroit (with Billups) as the 3rd or 4th best team in the East and sliding. My anger towards Joe is the fact that he isn't doing enough to make the team better. In the end, time is always the best judge.

firing dumars is going WAY overboard. but i was disappointed with both picks after stuckey, who i REALLY like.

afflalo struggles to do the same thing rip can't do- beat people off the dribble and make his own shot. i have to hope he somehow improves that or he's a nice kid who works hard but can't give us what we need.

i'm only hoping he can surprise me like maxiell has.

To be honest, this thread kinda makes me ashamed to be a Pistons fan, since that's what most of you guys consider yourselves. The draft was definitely not as bad as you're all making it sound.

First, I think Stuckey can be a fine player for us if we use him the right way. The only thing Young has on Stuckey is three point shooting, and we all know we don't need that. We need someone who can put the ball on the floor and drive into traffic, and Stuckey CAN do that.

Afflalo DOES address what we needed in terms of a backup for Tay. He is a good defender and was UCLA's leading scorer. Personally, I'm very confident in what he can do backing up Tay. Plus, there is still the possibility of someone else coming in through a trade (dumping Flip Murray, Nazr).

The sky isn't falling, everyone. Relax. I know the natural reaction is to freak out when things don't exactly go our way. But look at last offseason. We lost Ben, who was "the heart and soul of our team," and most people predicted we'd finish in the bottom half of the East playoff teams. Instead, we had the best record and came within one freak LeBron performance from another Finals berth. It's clear enough to me that to doubt this team is not usually a good plan.

who was predicting we'd be in the bottom half of east playoff teams?

imo, the sky already has fallen. it did last summer, when we converted from a annual champion contender into the sac kings east. if we're just trying to avoid letting the bottom fall out, joe's doing a great job. if thats all you want, great. but no pouting when we get swept by the cavs, or the bulls next year.

Holy crap. I came here wondering what the reaction to the draft was going to be and this is what we get? Seriously, guys. It was a nice draft for us, as we got solid guys who can contribute next year. Mejia isn't worth getting upset over as there wasn't anything else there I was dying to get.

I came away from the draft pretty happy with our haul. Afflalo wasn't what I was expecting, but I think he'll be a solid role player for years to come. Can't expect too much more with a late first.

who was predicting we'd be in the bottom half of east playoff teams?

Your boy Hollinger for one. He said we'd lose 20 more games than the year before, Jinxy.

I am sorry but to say Joe has done a above average job or that ownership has done whatever it takes to be an organization similar to SA is a joke. The past three years have been disgusting, sure the bottom hasn't fallen out but, my expectations are greater than that.

I don't believe that people's reps should live on by what they did 3 years ago if they haven't continued to do what made them great. Joe hasn't taken risks or done the things that brought this team back.

Time after time the team has made moves motivated by the luxary tax, sometimes two and three years out. You can't win now if you live three years from now. The Corliss trade was about paying the luxary tax in 05-06, not the following season, however the NBa raised the cap and the tax threshold for that season. Joe held on to Darko for no great reason but then sold him to Orlando to avoid the tax when we resigned Ben, but Ben didn't come back. Joe wouldn't take back Chandler in a sign and trade because of his salary but he would have been a far wiser investment compared to Nazr and Flip.

I refuse to give Joe a free pass when the motivation appears to be more business than sport, and the bottomline is the fans deserve more. The frustration is not just about the draft it is about the lack of direction. I don't care Mr. D is a billionaire who owns a team spending 75 million isn't going to put him in the red and cause him to be bankrupt before death.

I am sick of fans and Presidents telling me to be patient we are headed in the right direction after every questionable turn, yet mess after mess is the only result I see. I am supposed to be unwavering in my support, anything less is not being a true fan, questioning the lack of progress and direction is unacceptable.

Great post JS, I couldn't agree more.

nobody can convine me that Joe Dumars has been a good GM the past 3 years.

-Hiring Flip Saunders: Worst move he's ever made.
-The Darko trade was a bad deal, particularly since one of the motives was to clear cap room for...
-Ben Wallace leaving...
-No decent backup point, now for the 3rd straight year!
-still a weak bench
-signed Nazr who SUCKS ASS
-gave up Delfino for NOTHING.
-this draft.

Shitty move after shitty move. Drafting Maxiell was a pretty good pickup. CWebb was all luck that Philly dropped him.

I'd go so far as to say in the past 3 years, Joe Dumars has been a BAD GM.

I have not bitched too much about the draft--although I don't think Afflalo or Mejia will amount to much, hopefully Stuckey does. I'm just pissed that Joe has basically sat on his laurels the past few years while our team has wilted.

To be honest, this thread kinda makes me ashamed to be a Pistons fan, since that's what most of you guys consider yourselves.

Agree %100. This is pretty much why I'm not around much anymore.

Most of the time, it's hard to tell this is even a Pistons forum. There's so many spoiled brats here that have no idea what it's like to actually have a terrible GM, like we did in the 90's.

I'm not saying you can't ever criticize management, but wow it's ripping the Pistons is a pastime here. I don't have the energy or the desire to fend off a pistons forum full of people who clearly can't stand the Pistons.

Fair enough Kstat.

Why don't you educate us on all of the good moves that Joe has made over the past three years?

I'm sure that many here would like to see that.

kstats a true fan. while the pistons simultaneously slashed payroll, killed our chances at winning another ring in the next 10 years, and also greatly raised ticket prices, he never once lost faith.

he's an amazing fan, and an amazing human being.

"bil davidson doesnt owe you shit"

Fair enough Kstat.

Why don't you educate us on all of the good moves that Joe has made over the past three years?

I'm sure that many here would like to see that.

well, he was thrilled by the nazr muhhamed signing, and he said flip murray would put us over the top. so those were good moves... i guess.

Joe's last few years:

Good: Drafting Amir and Maxiell.

OK: Hiring Flip (nothing better at the time). Extending Tay and RIP for reasonable amount (would be good but it was a no brainer). Moving Darko for #15 pick (he had run his course here). Signing Flip Murray (hasn't panned out, but not huge risk either). trading Delfino for 2nd rounders (we couldn't use him to move up a few picks from #27 and get Almond?)

Bad: Signing Nazr, trading a pick for Arroyo. Not finding Tay a legit backup for 3 years.

Dealing Darko and Delfino were both good moves. He got about as much as could be expected for two guys that clearly just didn't fit on this team. Darko wasn't trying, and Delfino could not play a halfcourt game. Neither guy showed enough to warrant more than what we go for them.

Drafting Maxiell was a good move, and I'd expect even the people here to know that, since he's the only Piston any of you do like.

Amir Johnson was quite possibly the steal of the 2005 draft.

People here may or may not like Flip Saunders, but you can't say he wasn't the best available coach at the time we were hiring.

Letting Ben go may or may not prove to be a good move. It depends if they re-sign Chauncey. If they do, then cutting Ben loose paved the way for them to keep Chauncey, who definitely would be out of our league otherwise, and I believe has more longterm value than Ben anyhow.

Murray was a so-so move. Not great, because he didn't do much, and not bad, because he cost almost nothing.

Afflalo and Stuckey may or may not be good picks. Nobody will know for sure until we see them play. I'm sure most Mavs fans had no clue about Marquis Daniels and Josh Howard, especially since they seemed to overlap each other.

Nazr I think has proven to be the only truly "bad" move Joe's had over the last three years. But hey, let's fire the guy. Clearly, there are GMs out there that could do so much better....

flip wasnt the best available. larry brown was. #2 was mr. sonic, who was out of our price range. #3 was... flip was the 3rd most established. i have a hard time believing that there isnt a quality assistant or college coach who would have done a better job.

There are more good and bad decisions to be discussed.

This will help: http://www.n-c-systems.com/hoops/Search/SearchResults.php?Player=&Team=pistons&PlayerMovementChkBx=yes&BeginYear=2004&BeginMonth=06&BeginDay=01&EndYear=2007&EndMonth=06&EndDay=29&submit=Search

How was LB the best available when he was already here and wanted to leave?

Kstat- I would add not finding Tay a backup to your list. He should have made a move to get us a SF instead of platooning people out of position there.

There are more good and bad decisions to be discussed.

This will help: http://www.n-c-systems.com/hoops/Search/SearchResults.php?Player=&Team=pistons&PlayerMovementChkBx=yes&BeginYear=2004&BeginMonth=06&BeginDay=01&EndYear=2007&EndMonth=06&EndDay=29&submit=Search

Unfortunately the bad move with Memo turned out to be not signing him to a 3 year rookie contract. If we had, we would have had his bird rights and he might still be here. At worst we might have forced a S&T for him and got something back.

Kstat- I would add not finding Tay a backup to your list. He should have made a move to get us a SF instead of platooning people out of position there.

Well, he had a backup for Tay. Tay's backup simply was too inconsistent.

He's likely going to pick up Grant Hill to be Tay's new backup, and that's another move that could be golden or backfire.

I think that there are some less obvious things that are bad in what Joe D and Bill Davidson are doing that need to be mentioned:

By drafting all of those guards, It becomes less likely that Acker will want to come over from Europe. From what little i've seen, he would be rated equal to or better than any guys we drafted.

We didn't buy or trade for any additional picks even though we still had the needs for them. This team still has quite a few holes. We even coveted some of the draftees who were sold or traded for future 2nds.

We at least have the appearance that we are losing our commitment to win and this may cost us to lose out on a free agent player like Grant Hill. It could also hurt us when/if we go after a superstar who won't want to come here via trade.

We have failed to develop our youngsters. Darko, Delfino, Amir, Maxiell, etc. have not been given nearly enough pt to develop. I do have to give credit to Joe for at least realizing this. Whether he fixes it is another question.

Again, the sky isn't falling................yet. The fear is that this team is starting to go down the toilet. I criticize because I care. I WANT Joe to succeed. I WANT the Pistons to be dominant. I feel that it's my job as a Pistons fan to give them shit when they make mistakes. It's what passiontae fans do.

I'll short hand them here, you can just put "good" or "bad" or "neither" next to each one in a quote reply if you'd like, kinda like a little quiz. (not aiming this at Kstat, this is for anybody)

Drafting Paulding:

Signing Dice:

Signing Delfino after drafting him in 2003 (3-year, $2.9M, plus $1.9m 4th year option):

Signing Ronald Dupree for 2 years:

Resigning Sheed (5-year, $57M contract):

Memo leaves (declined to match offer sheet from Jazz) :

Traded Corliss/cash for Derrick Coleman/Amal McCaskill:

Signed Horace Jenkins:

Re-signed Darvin Ham:

Re-signed Lindsey Hunter:

Tremaine Fowlkes leaves for N.O.:

Signed and released Smush Parker:

Waived Derrick Coleman:

Acquired Carlos Arroyo for Elden Campbell and a 1st round pick:

Re-signed Elden Campbell:

Drafted Acker:

Drafted Maxiell:

Drafted Amir:

Fired Larry Brown:

Hired Flip Saunders:

Exercised team option on Darko:

Signed Dale Davis to a 2-year, $7M contract:

Signed Mo Evans to a 3-year, $4.5M contract:

Traded Dupree to TWolves for a 2nd round pick:

Re-signed Tayshaun to 5-year, $48M contract extension:

Traded Darko/Arroyo to Magic for Kelvin Cato and pick (Stuckey):

Signed Tony Delk:

Traded Mo Evans for Samb:

Drafted Will Blalock:

Signed Nazr Mohammed to a 5-year, $31M contract:

Ben Wallace leaves via FA:

Re-signed Lindsey Hunter to a 2-year, $4.5M contract:

Signed Ronald Dupree to a 2-year contract:

Signed Flip Murray to a 2-year, $3.5M contract:

Signed Will Blalock to a multi-year contract:

Acker to Euroleague (retains rights):

Exercise option on Delfino:

Exercise option on Maxiell:

Signed Webber:

Trades Delfino to Raps for two 2nds:

Fire Joe Dumars?

I'm sorry, but WTF are you guys talking about?

Drafting Paulding:

Signing Dice: Great (was risky though)

Signing Delfino after drafting him in 2003 (3-year, $2.9M, plus $1.9m 4th year option): Good

Signing Ronald Dupree for 2 years: bad

Resigning Sheed (5-year, $57M contract): good

Memo leaves (declined to match offer sheet from Jazz) : BAD - VERY BAD

Traded Corliss/cash for Derrick Coleman/Amal McCaskill: Neither

Signed Horace Jenkins: Neither - he was useless

Re-signed Darvin Ham: Neither - he was useless

Re-signed Lindsey Hunter: Good at the time

Tremaine Fowlkes leaves for N.O.: good

Signed and released Smush Parker: Bad - he never got a chance

Waived Derrick Coleman: good

Acquired Carlos Arroyo for Elden Campbell and a 1st round pick: BAD!! A 1st was too much for a guy who was 3rd or 4th string at the time

Re-signed Elden Campbell: good

Drafted Acker: Great

Drafted Maxiell: Great

Drafted Amir: Great

Fired Larry Brown: BAD!!

Hired Flip Saunders: BAD!!

Exercised team option on Darko: Good

Signed Dale Davis to a 2-year, $7M contract: Good

Signed Mo Evans to a 3-year, $4.5M contract: Neither - no impact

Traded Dupree to TWolves for a 2nd round pick: GREAT!

Re-signed Tayshaun to 5-year, $48M contract extension: GREAT

Traded Darko/Arroyo to Magic for Kelvin Cato and pick (Stuckey): BAD!

Signed Tony Delk: Good

Traded Mo Evans for Samb: Good

Drafted Will Blalock: Neither

Signed Nazr Mohammed to a 5-year, $31M contract: BAD

Ben Wallace leaves via FA: Neither

Re-signed Lindsey Hunter to a 2-year, $4.5M contract: Bad

Signed Ronald Dupree to a 2-year contract: BAD - Now we have to unload him

Signed Flip Murray to a 2-year, $3.5M contract: Neither

Signed Will Blalock to a multi-year contract: Neither

Acker to Euroleague (retains rights): Good

Exercise option on Delfino: Good

Exercise option on Maxiell: Good

Signed Webber: Good

Trades Delfino to Raps for two 2nds: Bad (didn't get enough)

Matt, I don't think anybody actually thinks he needs to be fired.

I think the point is, he's made some poor decisions (and non-decisions) over the past few years, and they seem to be happening much more frequently.

The inactivity at the trade deadline the past two years is another example.

note: a lot of those transactions are pretty insignificant, so feel free to disregard those, probably didn't need to post them ALL

Fire Joe Dumars?

I'm sorry, but WTF are you guys talking about?

I don't think the title or spirit of the thread is literal at least for me, it's about the lack of direction, spending or vision by the organization and Joe being the poster child for the frustration. It's about the organization worrying about money over championships, it's about 3 years of people waiting for a payoff but none is coming.

It is about the fact that draft night is the busiest and best time to make moves because GM's get punch drunk with moves, yet Joe is keeping things status quo.

I am sorry but no one is going to convince me that sitting back and picking at your slotted spot is being a great GM. When Zeke is capable of making a great deal that everyone is talking about , and you could have made the same deal, I am not convinced that my team did everything it could have.

Portland FYI is buying out Francis for the full value of the deal 33 million. Your telling me we couldn't have given up 27 or future conditional first or two seconds with Sheed for Randolph. Then had Portland buy him out for 25 million (his last two years), (which would have saved 9 million over Francis)then brought Sheed back for the minimum after telling him the plan, and boom we got Randolph with Sheed for cheap. If Portland wanted more take back Miles for Rip instead of giving up 27. Randolph, Miles, Stuckey and Affalo with the chance of bringing back Sheed cheap and then having money to spend on PG or C would have been genius, not far fetched as some may think, it was very possible.

JS, I'm not sure the Sheed angle would have been viable.

I know that we were able to get Lindsey and Elden back in a similar fashion, but I think the NBA closed that loophole a year ago or so, or at least attempted to.

JS, I'm not sure the Sheed angle would have been viable.

I know that we were able to get Lindsey and Elden back in a similar fashion, but I think the NBA closed that loophole a year ago or so, or at least attempted to.

We would had to wait 1 month after the trade to re-sign Sheed, being the off season it may be 1 month after game 1.

Edit... According to Chad Ford article breaking down the 2005 CBA and after looking at a copy of the CBA the buyout come back clause didn't make it into the CBA. The only players who couldn't go back were those who were bought out by the Oct 1st 2005 Amnesty provision.

Regardless Joe could have done something with Portland even if Sheed didn't come back he could have given him to Zeke, and could have got Randolph if he were aggressive.

Well, he had a backup for Tay. Tay's backup simply was too inconsistent.

He's likely going to pick up Grant Hill to be Tay's new backup, and that's another move that could be golden or backfire.

Who? Delfino was a SG, or possibly a combo guard (in the mold of Manu, just doens't play hard like him).

Our backup SF's have been: Curry, Folkes, Ham, Evans and Dupree.

Everyone else there was playing out of position.

Resigning Sheed (5-year, $57M contract): good

Memo leaves (declined to match offer sheet from Jazz) : BAD - VERY BAD


How can you say resigning Sheed was good and Memo leaving was bad. We HAD to choose one of them. Either you wanted Sheed or you wanted Memo because we would have had to renounce Sheed to sign Memo. We didn't have bird rights to go over the cap to keep Memo. Period, end of story.

If he was saying that not giving Memo a longer-term initial contract (3 years instead of 2) was bad, then both of those could be true.

How was LB the best available when he was already here and wanted to leave?

Kstat- I would add not finding Tay a backup to your list. He should have made a move to get us a SF instead of platooning people out of position there.

this isnt an argument that ever goes anywhere.

but no one can find a quote from larry saying he wanted out.

he asked, and was given permission, to talk to the cavs about a role in the office. sounds like he was coming up with a plan B incase that major surgery he had kept him from coaching. kind of shitty timing, but thats the way it is w/ the draft coming up so fast, and the pistons said ok.

then after that its larry is being unreasonable about not confirming that he can coach the whole season. dude was mid 60's recovering from a major surgery!

i thought this was the pistons at there most classless.

--------------

to say he wasnt available to coach is disingenous. he was freaking under contract and never said he wanted out.

How can you say resigning Sheed was good and Memo leaving was bad. We HAD to choose one of them. Either you wanted Sheed or you wanted Memo because we would have had to renounce Sheed to sign Memo. We didn't have bird rights to go over the cap to keep Memo. Period, end of story.

right. it was one or the other. not both.

and we couldnt sign memo for 3 years, or we couldnt have offered chauncy the full mle.

We would had to wait 1 month after the trade to re-sign Sheed, being the off season it may be 1 month after game 1.

Edit... According to Chad Ford article breaking down the 2005 CBA and after looking at a copy of the CBA the buyout come back clause didn't make it into the CBA. The only players who couldn't go back were those who were bought out by the Oct 1st 2005 Amnesty provision.

Regardless Joe could have done something with Portland even if Sheed didn't come back he could have given him to Zeke, and could have got Randolph if he were aggressive.

a good plan, but what's keeping sheed from taking his 25, or whatever, and then signing another big contract and screwing the pistons.

thats what i'd do.

Does anyone else forget that Okur HATED to play under Larry brown?

I'm not sure we could have signed him even if we were able to....

On the LB thing, what makes it even more confusing/slimy is that the Cavs were in the process or being bought (or had already been bought) by the Pistons largest sponsor/advertiser.

There are some "in the know" that suggest that the Pistons even set up the talks with Cleveland on Larry's behalf.

And then Tom Wilson meets with David Aldridge before the playoff game on the court and smugly proclaims "Yes, we have given permission for Larry to speak with the Cavaliers".

It was all set up quite nicely for the public to believe that Larry was screwing the Pistons over.

We'll never know, maybe he did, but it almost seemed like entrapment to me at the time, and it still does in some ways.

Tom Wilson fancies himself the master media manipulator, and maybe for good reason.

Focusing on the last two years there's only one more that stands out to me as glaringly bad. The rest mostly fall under the umbrella of either the kinds of crapshoots that every GM has to take on marginal youngsters/journeymen or financial constraints that come from the owner. Also, almost none of the iffy ones involved significant amounts of money and/or long term contracts. Fire Joe and his replacement is going to have the same marching orders so that's a wash.

For Ben leaving, I only blame chicago. They overpaid him, I'm glad we didn't and can't blame him for taking the money.

No, the baffling, relatively high financial cost, roster-jamming move that baffles me is signing Nazr. Nazr came here healthy and did the exact same thing he did the year before in San Antonio. I don't know why Joe expected different results. In both cases you're talking about a solid locker room, veteran contender that demands very little of the position... and Nazr managed to abdicate the starting job in the face of basically no competition.

With all your cash tied up in the core players, the margin for error is too small to piss away a full MLE long term contract on a guy who he should've known was going to be the same here as he was in SA.

right. it was one or the other. not both.

and we couldnt sign memo for 3 years, or we couldnt have offered chauncy the full mle.

That's the first time I ever heard anyone state a reason for it. Good to know. I always assumed it was simply a matter of not wanting to take a chance on him.

right. it was one or the other. not both.

and we couldnt sign memo for 3 years, or we couldnt have offered chauncy the full mle.

First, I was just answering each question on it's own accord. Second, I don't know who was on the roster at the time but I'm sure wondering if we could have moved someone to keep both Sheed and Memo. At that point most of our players still had reasonable contracts.

First, I was just answering each question on it's own accord. Second, I don't know who was on the roster at the time but I'm sure wondering if we could have moved someone to keep both Sheed and Memo. At that point most of our players still had reasonable contracts.

There really was no way. We would have had to get like 10 million under the cap, down to like 34-35 counting Sheed's deal. No way.

If he was saying that not giving Memo a longer-term initial contract (3 years instead of 2) was bad, then both of those could be true.
Memo's agent didn't want a 3 year contract. He knew the rules at the time and wanted the flexibility.

The Pistons now have Billups, Richard Hamilton, Flip Murray, Will Blalock, potentially Alex Acker and these two draft picks at the two guard positions. Dumars indicated a couple of those players probably would be dealt before training camp, but it was his aim to bolster the backcourt.

"Our struggles in the playoffs have been on the perimeter," he said.

"Either we didn't make shots or we didn't defend well from the perimeter like we needed to. I have never felt we were outplayed in the paint in the playoffs."
To an extent I have to agree with the last statement. But, I still say big strong true Center would have been nice.

Though I dont agree with it, i see his method and i wish he woulda explained it earlier. Dont think it'll work, but now atleast I dont feel like he was taking blind shots in the dark.

wasn't any big men available at either pick.

Dumars said from the beginning he wanted motivated hard workers.

Both Stuckey and Afflalo fit that bill.

None of the big men available at that time did. McRoberts was a career underachiever, and Davis's work habits are very much in question, as were Tiago Splitter's.

Woo hoo, go Doom.

wasn't any big men available at either pick.

Dumars said from the beginning he wanted motivated hard workers.

Both Stuckey and Afflalo fit that bill.

None of the big men available at that time did. McRoberts was a career underachiever, and Davis's work habits are very much in question, as were Tiago Splitter's.

I would have liked up to try to move up a couple spots or get another pick iin the 2nd rd to get Herbert Hill, Fazekas, or Fesenko though.

wasn't any big men available at either pick.

Dumars said from the beginning he wanted motivated hard workers.
Ok 2 things.


1.)There were big men available(sean williams and jason smith). whether they were worth it, is subjective. Even if they were, i doubt they were on our radar based on the picks we made. I do think Nick young is a matador on defense and regardless of those that woulda been happy we grabbed him, i'm happy we didnt.


2.)I think its more about wanting perimeter defenders who can score. He seems to feel there is still room to play legit perimeter defense in this league(i dont believe there is myself). and thats where he wants to attack wade, arenas, and James it seems. good luck, hope it works, i personally dont think it will. .

Sean Williams is another guy that falls under the "unmotivated as hell" category.

The kid couldn't even show up to pre draft workouts on time because he was too busy playing video games. He'll be out of the NBA in 4 years.

Jason Smith is the one big man that fits the bill, but the pistons just didn't like his game, from most reports.

As to the 2nd point, Stuckey was drafted because he can score. Afflalo is clearly a different kind of player, that specializes and takes pride in his defense.

In talking about him, Dumars brought up his ability to defend 3 positions and his leadership waaaay before he even mentioned his offense.

In the NBA, Afflalo will be able to hit open shots and come off screens, but that's about the extent of his NBA-level offensive skills. He isn't overly athletic and he doesn't handle the ball as well as Stuckey.

What he does do, is stick to his man like glue, and take a personal challenge to shut down any player he is assigned to guard.

Stuckey is an adequate defender who can come up with steals and that imo gave him the edge over nick young. I do think defense was a major factor and requirement. Not saying that he had to be a lock down defender. but he isnt a matador like young by any means.

Nick Young is a walking turnover to begin with, but that's beside the point.

Never said Stuckey was a bad defender, but that isn't why Joe drafted him.

Stuckey is a kid that will attack every second he has the ball. He goes to the rim extremely hard for a guy his size, and he also is able to find the open man when he gets trapped.

Joe wanted a vinnie johnson type 3rd guard that could come in and play both spots. Stuckey fits that mold in theory.

Afflalo would seem to be Joe's bigger replacement for Lindsey Hunter. A guy that will play in spurts, but will be used primarily to harass the shit out of a premier perimeter player.

Never said Stuckey was a bad defender, but that isn't why Joe drafted him.
I never said it was the only reason, just that it played a major factor, just like his scoring. Just like Affalo's ability to score on catch and shoots like rip hamilton played a factor. it wasnt just scorer here, defender here. he's looking for both guys to score points and play defense. affalo slightly above average scorer, stuckey slightly above average defender.


Afflalo would seem to be Joe's bigger replacement for Lindsey Hunter. A guy that will play in spurts, but will be used primarily to harass the shit out of a premier perimeter player.

the difference and that x factor imo is that he'll be looked to much like rip to come off screens on OFFENSE. something hunter can never be asked to do. Neither guy is one dimensional. that was on purpose imo.

Stuckey will be asked to stay in front of his man, something murray couldnt do.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5AMQaBaLslY

A great example of Afflalo's offensive skill set.

...and then there's this.

vmYbziSuRd0

The most impressive thing, IMO, is the catch Afflalo makes on this play. His guard nearly threw it into the 3rd row, and Afflalo not only makes a clean grab, but recovers in time to pull up for the shot.

This whole thread is ludicrous. Dumars is a crappy drafter at the top. I get it. But as long as he turns crappy picks into decent players/prospects and keeps making decent trades, he remains in the top tier of GMs. Don't forget that this is from a GM that had no GM experience prior to taking our jobs. Hopefully he will learn.

Anyway, I hate the Afflalo pick, but as others said, I wasn't really blown away by other prospects. Was there another prospect after 27 that fit into our system, and would beat out Sheed or even Dice at center minutes? Certainly not at PF where we have a ton of guys. A backup SF would have been nice, but at least this forces Dumars hand to pick up someone.

Stuckey was the smart play, since we need a bench guard and Billups free agent status.

I do however think that Joe D really really wanted Thornton. Seemed to be the vibe I got from him. I think Stuckey was the #2 and Young the #3 choice.

whats important here i think is that Joe really needs to come through with a consistent backup SF in free agency - Grant Hill would be nice. That allows us flexibility to roll the dice with the two (three actually) guards that Joe drafted without another gaping hole.

in regards to pages 4 & 5 of this thread involving rasheed and randolph




why would portland want rasheed?

Dumars and the Pistons' scouting department latched on to Afflalo's defensive ability and talent for scoring off screens. He also hails from Tayshaun Prince's hometown of Compton, Calif., and Afflalo has played against Prince in the summer.

"I guess things work in mysterious ways, I'm where I should be," he said.

"I'm ready to go start playing right now."

If I had the power, I'd swat this thread into the stands where it belongs.

Blasphemers!

Seriously though, Joe took the guys that would fit best in our system. No use drafting a big, useless body to sit on our bench (read: we have one already, and his name is Nazr). Also, it looks like Hill is on his way here, so we should be fine going into next season, assuming Chauncey signs.

Some good discussion came out of a ridiculous start to a thread...fire JoeD. But that goes to the posters who diverted from the original post. You can say that firing JoeD isn't what the thread is about but that is 'exactly' what the thread says.

in regards to pages 4 & 5 of this thread involving rasheed and randolph




why would portland want rasheed?

The point was (is) Portland isn't keeping Francis they are just eating his contract and buying him out, therefore if they are willing to buyout Francis for 33 million, why wouldn't they have been willing to do the same with Rasheed if it would have saved them 9 million. The point wasn't about them wanting Sheed it was if they are willing to give away 33 million for a guy who will never where a Blazers jersey they may have done the same with us if Joe made a solid offer.

The point was simply that Portland was looking for minimal value in return to get rid of Randolph, a minimal value that we could have given up.

thats also forgetting frye

thats also forgetting frye

As I said in the original post, at the point in the draft the deal took place we had the 27 pick to trade to increase the trade' s value. We also could have moved Nazr, Murray, Maxiell with a pick or couple of seconds knowing how badly Portland wanted more picks.

You can't tell me that we wouldn't have been better off with Dickau, Fred Jones and Randolph in place of Sheed, Nazr and 27.

I am not saying a deal would have been possible but considering the lack of return Portland got they weren't expecting the world.

I can't believe they were expecting disruptive Rasheed back. I could believe they'd take the Knicks deal over ours, just over Rasheed.

You can't tell me that we wouldn't have been better off with Dickau, Fred Jones and Randolph in place of Sheed, Nazr and 27.
I can. Fred Jones? no thanks, the guy puts up offensive numbers similar to delfino w/o the defense and rebounding. Dickau? The guy who plays worse defense than nash with no offense to compensate? Randolph is nice. But losing sheed to get him is no better than breaking even imo, if that. For all his post skills, he as of late has just as bad a tendency to shoot jumpers as sheed, and his defense is light years behind. We get smaller, no faster, lose our last remaining shot blocker, and get farther away from having and presence in the paint on defense.

Randolph would be a great addition. Just not sure about him being one coupled with the subtraction of sheed along with two guards who IMHO suck really badly. That deal would seem a little desperate on our part. Just my 2 cents. [smilie=peepwall.gi:

Agree with Gutz. Jones and DD are worthless. I personally like Zach, but his deal is wretched.

Here are a couple more deals that I think the Pistons could have easily gotten:

Philly trades the 38th pick (Kyrylo Fesenko) for the 55th pick (H. Hill) and future considerations.

The Pistons were looking at Fesenko with possibly the 27th pick. I'm guessing that we could have gotten him waiving one or both of the Toronto picks. It would have been a good get for us.

Miami trades the #39 pick (Stanko Barac) to Indy for a 2009 2nd. Another 7-0 guy who looks to be a very solid prospect. I would have happily given one of the Tor. picks for him.

Portland gets the #24 pick (fernandez) from Phoenix for cash. If Davidson would have ponied up some cash (or add a Tor. 2nd), we could have added this pick (not to take Fernandez) and picked up another quality player (Splitter would have been awesome even if we have to wait a year)

It's sad that we didn't get in on any of these deals or deals like them. If we had also walked out of this draft with Splitter AND Fesenko plus our other picks, I'm guessing that most Pistons fans would be happy as heck with our draft instead of scratching our heads.

Agree with Gutz. Jones and DD are worthless. I personally like Zach, but his deal is wretched.
How do you figure DD is worthless? He played well as a backup C when actually given the minutes and the chance. Flipshit not giving him minutes, even when CWebb was matadoring, wasn't DD's fault.

he wasn't worthless, but he also wasn't helping. He let more passes go through his hands than Nazr.

The improvement he gave us defensively was offset by the fact he couldn't even hold on to the ball on offense.

By DD he meant Dan Dickeau........

oh, wow.

Nope, he pretty much has no business being in the NBA.

By DD he meant Dan Dickeau........


Thank you. Please don't turn the page on the thread until you hear the beep kids.

Doh! Sorry about that. I always thought of Dale Davis as DD and never thought of Dan Dickless similarly, and I got confused.

Also I'll take affalo over fred jones and dan dickhead combined. Affalo is actually for all intensive purposes fits this system to a tee. A guy who prefers to shoot off screens? And unlike jones and dickhead, he can play defense.

Doh! Sorry about that. I always thought of Dale Davis as DD and never thought of Dan Dickless similarly, and I got confused.
Yea as you can see, dikau's reputation precedes him.