We've got threads going looking forward to the draft and what choices we have, but trying to be more specific what or who was at fault? Its hard to pinpoint why we lost but before I can look forward to much, I need understand what the fuck just happened. Thoughts?

Defense?
Letting Ben go?
Offense?
Weren't agressive enough on Offense?
Wrong coach?
Bad coaching decisions?
players have become complacent?
Sheed?
Any other player?
No desire?
Just the natural order of things, like the Bad Boys, Lakers any other mini dynasty, they think they can turn it on anytime they want? and they can't.

combination?

Hopefully this isn't redundant, my bad if it is.

joe d fiddled while rome burned. thats my take.

i also think we're older than peole thnk. we played ~100 playoff games over since tay took oer. alot of guys complain its too hard to make it though the regular season cuz its too long. well, we've been leaning on the same guys for way too many minutes for way too many games. theyve pretty much all played them all, and also played an extra whole season in the last few years. that takes it toll.

I've been toying with the theory of being "too balanced". Sounds silly, but my analogy is any group dynamic that doesn't have a leader. Responsibilities slip through the cracks and when times get tough, no one knows who to look towards.

I don't think we need to scrap the entire team and build a superstar+scrubs model, but I do think we need a SG/SF who is the clear cut go to guy in the stretch. Rip's a consistent scorer, but he sorely lacks the "we need a bucket, let's isolate him and let him make a play."

Other than that, we can point our fingers at a multitude of problems, imo.

Good stuff. Matt a 2 guard that can go to the hole with authority would definately be nice. Diddy, older prolly true and maybe these guys aren't as special as we think, meaning that they've played together for three years now and they are getting old to each other. Its takes a special group to play together with the egos these days.

I have such a hard time to think that this team peaked(peeked) in the first..what 30 games that Sheed was on this team? We went down hill from there?

Ben left, Brown left and there if you really want to get critical, I guess we could bitch about the Darko pick. I mean if we drafted ??? it would have been a starter. Okur left. I guess I should stick to the topic though.

the new emphasis of nba rules favors teams with superstars. (it also favors teams with floppers, but that's another subject altogether)

i honestly believe we'd be in the same boat if we still had ben or not. the fact is, we do not have one SINGLE guy who can truly break people down off the dribble and create his own shot or drive to the hole and finish.

that is the key. it means we have a bunch of good but not great athletes who can't even get off their own shot unless we execute perfectly within the offense. and even then we're suceptble to long scoring droughts if the shots aren't falling.

i think we're fatigued too. but our mental approach to the game sucks and i think this unit has grown 'stale'. it's time to shake things up and add some elite athletes where possible.

for as good as rip is, his game is not suited to how they call the games now. he can't finish and he can't create his own shot. i would make damn near everyone available if the trade offer is right.

i would rather us dismantle this team and keep a few key players than to struggle through denial and a long period of mediocrity.

Chauncey's been an ~80% FT shooter instead of a ~90% FT shooter since April, and shot below 80% from the line in the ECF. I suspect that whatever is at the heart of Chauncey not being a stud from the FT line is a big factor.

My thoughts on what went wrong:

1. Flip Saunders. Anyone that gets outcoached by Mike Brown can't be a good coach. But then again we knew he was a moron. His rotations made no sense from the first day he arrived but especially in the cavs series (maxiell won game 2 for the pistons and plays 3 minutes in game 3; plays well in game 5 and doesn't see the floor in game 6; plays Nazr Mohammed for the first time in the playoffs in an elimination game; starts the 4th quarter in an elimination game with Lindsey Hunter and Flip Murray in the lineup....tie game turns into a quick deficit...calls time out and they stay in the game...one minute later they are down 10....he did the same thing in Minnesota in a game 6 against the lakers benching his top scorers to open the 4th quarter and saw a lead turn into a 10 point deficit; goes from a coach that loves the zone against chicago to a guy that never even tries it unless down late in the 4th).

It's obvious he is a loser and doesn't have a clue. In a way I'm almost happy to see the team lose if it leads to Joe D. firing flip. He deserves to coach the Rockets and T-Mac.

2. Chauncey Billups. Stick a taller player on him or double team him and he's useless. He's not a playmaker. He can't create off the dribble (much like rip) and is more to blame than Rip since hamilton is an off the ball player (who would excel if teamed with a point guard that can create).

It's absolutely imperative that you have a guy that handles the ball as much as billups actually be able to make plays for others or himself (on other teams it's the 2 guard or small forward that's the primary playmaker...on the pistons as it is on most teams it's the point guard which is why you don't need Rip Hamilton to be a guy that can necessarily create his own shot ).

Billups is a jump shooter that takes advantage of his strength against smaller players in order to get jump shots or spots up for shots on kick outs. Take that away and he's nothing. He needs to go.

3. Joe Dumars. He needs to shoulder some if not most of the blame. First, for hiring Flip. Second, this team hasn't had a consistent perimiter scorer coming off the bench for years. He has not resolved this glaring problem since the championship year. When the starters struggled to score, which happens on a team with no superstar or obvious playmaker, there was no one to turn to. Mcdyess couldn't hit a shot which left this team barren, from a scoring perspective, off the bench. Even though Mcdyess played with passion and heart I still think they should have pulled the trigger on that supposed deal with the rockets for Bonzi Wells (even if he's nuts he did average 23 ppg in the playoffs last year and this team could have used his "attack the rim" style rather than yet another jump shooter in mcdyess). The combo of maxiell and wells with the pistons depth down low, in my opinion, supercedes the combo of mcdyess and....Delfino?

Water under the bridge. The season will be a success if Flip Saunders is gone.

We don't defend well enough (or are not allowed to by refs) to stop Dwayne Wade and Lebron James. That's really it.

You can factor in bad coaching and arrogance/laziness among players as to possible reasons why we can't defend well, but the problem is primarily an inability to stop superstar caliber players.

btw, what yargs said about his 4th quarter sub pattern has always driven me batty - it's his regular rotation that I"ve seen tons of times this season. He'll play the starters most or all of the 3rd quarter, than bring in the reserves to start the 4th, before bringing the starters back in later in the 4th. That sort of things works in the 1st half, but the game is on the line in the 4th. I wish he would, sub in the bench mid-way through the 3rd, and have the starters back early in the 4th.

I agree. In most playoff games, there's not a moment of the 4th quarter that's not critical.

I'm angry at Chauncey, angry at Sheed, angry at Webber for the way this season ended...but not so angry that I can't see where the real problem is. Fire Flip.

RE: So what happened with the Pistons?

The bench still sucks, as does the supervisor of the bench staff.

RE: So what happened with the Pistons?

The bench still sucks, as does the supervisor of the bench staff.

Does this mean you've come around about the converstation you and I had lastsummer about Flip's inadequacies?

Maybe?

Are you sure that was me? Can you find it? I'd like to read it, actually.

I can't remember supporting Flip (or hating him) for that matter.

I've always felt sort of "bleh" about him. I've always wished we could have found a way to keep LB instead, that's for sure.

Your search function is balls. I may try more later.

The context was I talked about flip being a reg. season coach, and you asked what made a guy a playoff vs. reg season coach. You seemed to be insinuating that success gave the label, not abilities. I explained it was a matter of being imaginative in design, quick with changes, and having the players in a postition to want to follow you into the fire. You said "meh".

The only person I got into a fight with about him was Cliffy who couldn't understand my take that the guy never made his team better once in his career.


Edit-I'm 100% sure it was you. I remember every hoopty message board discussion I've ever had. It's my thing.

Okay, since you are sure, then yes, I've come around.

Actually, I just don't think the players respect him and that in itself is reason enough to move on, but when you add in the other stuff...

The problem is, who will they respect?

Maybe I just missed it, but has Joe D said anything yet?

I assume that Stoney & Wojo are trying to get him for this afternoon, has anyone heard of a pending interview?

Maybe I just missed it, but has Joe D said anything yet?

I assume that Stoney & Wojo are trying to get him for this afternoon, has anyone heard of a pending interview?

I'd really appreciate anybody posting anything they heard on the radio etc. Its helps us out-of-towners that are starving for info. I realize if its anything big, it'll hit the net, fsn, espn.

But you only gain by losing, and the Pistons, having collapsed in this playoff round, must lose some of the reason why. That may be players. That may be the coach. But whatever form it takes, it has to include the attitude.

There is no royal cloak on this team. They weren't robbed. They weren't exiled. They lost four straight to a young, hungry franchise and left the arena as second runner-up in the NBA playoffs. So long, swagger. By the time the Pistons boarded the bus, the shadow they thought they cast had disappeared permanently into the dark sky of another unhappy ending.

lol Pistons.

McClueless said Joe usually doesn't do exit interviews (like the wings do) until closer to the draft.

Looks like the oddsmakers have us as the favorite to land Zach Randolph:




Which team will Zach Randolph be traded to?
If Zach Randolph is not traded by November 1st, 2007 all wagers are No Action.

Atlanta Hawks
4/1

Washington Wizards
6/1

Detroit Pistons
7/2

Miami Heat
4/1

Chicago Bulls
10/1

Los Angeles Lakers
8/1

Boston Celtics
7/1

Milwaukee Bucks
10/1

Memphis Grizzlies
8/1

New Jersey Nets
6/1

Minnesota Timberwolves
10/1

Seattle Supersonics
5/1

Charlotte Bobcats
15/1

Los Angeles Clippers
15/1

Field (Any Other Team)
5/1

Not bad.

I think other teams in the East need to start fucking playing better than the Pistons in the regular season. The two years we went to the finals we were the #3 (2nd best record) and #2 seed and come ECF time we didn't even have homecourt. Go figure the three years we had it ('03, '06, '07) we lost in 4, 6, and 6. Like I said in another thread I'm someone who likes to play with history...

Great thread, and tons of great points have been made in this thread.

There are soooo many things that went wrong, it could take all day to post, so I'll just hit the big ones.

1. No superstar, no leader, no go to guy. I've thought this in my head for years, and just hoped that our balance would make up for it. We've seen it for 5 years now, when we need a bucket down the stretch, who do we go to? They don't know and we don't know.

2. Flip Saunders. It's been covered already, but his substitution pattern has been horrific for 2 years. After game 2, I believed Maxiell was well on his way to becoming the next Ben Wallace with a bit more offense, but he goes scoreless and plays 3 minutes the next game. The Nazr situation was a joke, and how can you possibly start the 4th quarter of an elimination game with 34 year old Lindsey Hunter and Flip Murray in the backcourt? Or how about in game 5, where we take a 7 point lead and Flip S. decides to take out Webber and 'Sheed and replace them with Maxiell and DALE DAVIS? I love Max, and I think his future is bright, but you don't want him and Double D down low on the offensive block in game 5 of the Eastern Conference Finals. And the zone defense was terrible and his inability to play any sort of help defense on LeBron was inexcusable.

3. The NBA. The blatant calls that Cleveland got and the no-calls that we didn't get made it impossible for us to win. Maybe Stern and the NBA are involved or it's referee superstar bias, but that was just not fair. 'Bron getting every call in the world and 'Sheed on the losing end of every questionable and non-questionable were too much to overcome.

4. Joe D. I'm sorry, the guy has done a phenomenal job overall, but where is the bench? That Darko pick is looking reeeeeeeally bad right now too.

5. Chauncey. This guy might be the most cocky player in the league and for what reason? He's slow, can't get to the basket or create his own shot, and can't even post up Boobie Gibson. I'm also so sick and tired of his isolation offense in game winning situations where everyone stands there and watches him go 1 on 5, pump fake, get the defender in the air, lean in, try to draw contact and chuck up a leaning 3 and miss it. IMO, he's expendable. As long as we get a PG who should be starting in this league, let him go.

6. Overconfidence and complacency. I don't think I need to explain anything else here. 'nuff said.

I feel this team should have won 3 championships (04, 05, 06), maybe 4 (07) and did not due to all of these reasons, primarily #6. It's time to blow it up! [smilie=fireworks.g:[smilie=pistonsfloo:[smilie=fireworks.g: