Relax.

This is not a "the sky is falling" thread, although it is born of frustration.

Simple question.

Who do you want gone before next season?

Pick as many as you want to.

Don't worry about contracts or reality. Assume that we get equal value in exchange for anyone we lose.

This is therapy.

Flip Saunders.
After watching LeBron score 29 of his teams last 30 points, and after watching the Pistons not make ONE adjustment and even try to get the ball out of his hands (and keeping in mind that, like I said last night, LeBron has reached the status of defensing him being against the rules), it is clear that the coach either offers no strategy, or the players aren't listening to him.
Bill Walton was on Mike & Mike yesterday, and said that the Pistons aren't playing well enough to get other players on the team involved, and he specifically mentioned Maxiell. Walton thinks Maxiell is terriffic. He thought the Pistons are basically going through the motions, and aren't playing in a way that their best players can get a rest, and that other players who bring something different (energy, whatever) to the table don't get a chance.
Conversly, in the last two games, LeBron has had significant rest time on the bench, even in the fourth quarter (he didn't play for nearly the first four minutes of the fourth quarter last night).
I think the difference is Flip Saunders, and he isn't the answer for this team.
Give a two year blank check to Larry Brown or blow the whole thing up and start over.

I'll add Flip

I already voted, so I can't vote again, but I manually added a vote for Flip for me.

Stop making these things private. I voted for Flip, Webber, Nazr, Davis, and Hunter.

It isn't private (unless they are added manually by an admin).

Click on the votes to see who voted for what.

If anyone that already voted wants to have a vote manually added for one of the three late additions, just say so.

What are you talking about Glenn?

What are you talking about Glenn?
[smilie=alpaca.gif]

I voted Flip. To not trap Lebron in the half court the entire two overtimes is borderline mental retardation. He just seems like he's never in control. Yes, players make plays, but he doesn't even put them in position to make those plays far too often.

Flip Saunders. I actually think we can do something with Nazr and Flip Murray. Webber's gone anyway.

Leave my boy Ronald Dupree out of this.

That being said...Flip is a definite, the others (Chauncey, 'Sheed) I'm on the fence about.

i'm going outside the box and voting Rip off the island. i think we need an explosive scoring 2 guard and Rip's not it.

I think RIP is just that. The problem is that Tay is not a great spot up 3 point shooter (he's good, but not killer there). Really, RIP should have a 3 point specialist so that if he's doubled off a curl he can pass to the wing. Also, it would be better to have an athletic big to run the curl with that can attack the basket on a hard trap of RIP. Someone in the Bosh or Amare mold. Actually, RIP would be perfect in Phoenix I think with Nash and Amare.

Time to start the Sheed and RIP for Marion and some first rounders rumor...

I voted for a lot of the old guard to be gone. I'd like to see what we can get in a S&T for Billups. I'd like to see us try to trade Sheed but only if we can get something of value in return. Hunter (retire), Davis (retire), Nazr (trade)and Dupree don't really fit into the big plan. Webber would only be back as a bench player at the min. Blalock will only stay if he's the third pg. Flip Murray is cheap so if he stays, no biggie.

Same wavelength with Yargsie apparently. Good show!

:rayburn:

Would you do this deal?

Sheed + RIP for Marion + Bell + ATL 2008 First Rounder


Draft Hawes with Orlando's pick, Pruitt with ours


We'd become:

PG Billups/Pruitt/Hunter
SG Bell/Delfino/Flip
SF Tay/Marion
PF Marion/Max/Amir
C Hawes/Dyess/Nazr

We can draft a pure scorer to replace Bell next year with that Atlanta pick. Dyess and Delfino become expirings next year and we can move them for picks if we wanted to as well.

Flip obviously. But past that, it's time to clean house.

Sheed/Dice/Nazr/CWebb/Davis

I'm sick of all of these guys. Clean house. Give me Maxiell, either Sheed or Dice, and a real Center who's actually good. Ditch the rest.

Chauncey is great but isn't cut out to be our "best" player. I'd consider sign and trade but only if we could get something good. The problem is there are no good point guards out there who we can get in a S&T.

With the pressure to get KG some inside help, would Minny jump on Sheed and Nazr for their first rounder? That's too much money. Maybe they would do Dyess, Nazr, Delfino and our first for Davis, James and their first? I hate Davis, but his contract (expiring next year) is needed to match.

Well, I might as well get crazy now and continue the youth movement...

Then send LAC Billups for Maggs and their first.

We draft Conley with the Minny pick, Hawes with the Clippers, and Thorton or Young with Orlando's pick and maybe Pruitt with our pick

PG Conley/James/Pruitt
SG RIP/Nick Young
SF Tay/Maggette
PF Max/Amir
C Sheed/Hawes


Yeah, it will never happen, but look at all the young talent.

Would you do this deal?

Sheed + RIP for Marion + Bell + ATL 2008 First Rounder


Draft Hawes with Orlando's pick, Pruitt with ours


We'd become:

PG Billups/Pruitt/Hunter
SG Bell/Delfino/Flip
SF Tay/Marion
PF Marion/Max/Amir
C Hawes/Dyess/Nazr

We can draft a pure scorer to replace Bell next year with that Atlanta pick. Dyess and Delfino become expirings next year and we can move them for picks if we wanted to as well.

The only problem with this line-up is that I see us having some problems scoring. I also see Rip as being the best peice in the trade.

Yes, you would have to feature Tay a little more, and supposedly Hawes has excellent post moves. Your scoring help would be the 2008 pick. You would have a better defensive team with Bell instead of RIP.

I don't like the phoenix trade idea. We lose alot more offense in rip than we think. Bell can no where be as good as rip on the offensive end.

I'm all for the 2nd one with Minny, but honetsly, I think we are geting too little bacl for Chauncey. and is it just me or did rip just disappear?

Webbers gone, Flip Murray I hope he opts out, Flip Saunders get him out of here

at this point i'd be more than accepting of blowing this team up and starting over, rather than clinging on to another mediocre playoff run. if we had a firesale, we could rebuild quickly. i wanted to do this last summer, and i think its definitly time to do it this go around. the idea of locking up chauncy for 60 or 70 million scares the hell out of me. once is an aberation, twice is a trend. i would be thrilled if the end result was landing conley, which would involve a big trade with atlanta. i think they'd have to consider a S&T billups for the #3. that team doesnt need more youth, plus billups and joey J would be an unbelievable match. would they want it? would billups?

a S&T with boston is also possible, but would conley really slip to 5?

i'm surprised a few people voted Delfino, considering he seemed to have a decent year with an expanded role.

for those who voted for him, is it to use him as trade bait?

His jumper is way too irratic for my liking (and we do shoot a few jumpers in this offense, don't we) and I'm sick of seeing him used out of position (out of necessity).

If he could be used in a trade, that would be fine with me, he hasn't endeared himself enough to me that it would be painful to lose him.

fuck a bump

I can't stand Delfinos inconsistency, every time he takes a shot I cringe...get him out of here...somebody will over value him...

I think Flip leaves and we get younger by trading Sheed. Also, I doubt that Chauncey Billups re-signs here. Some other team is going to pay him more money than he's worth.

I don't think Mohammed, Dupree, etc should even come close in terms of amount of votes to the usual suspects (Flip, Chauncey, etc). Yeah, they're worthless, we need to get rid of them, but why not focus on the biggest jerkoffs first?

I think Flip leaves and we get younger by trading Sheed. Also, I doubt that Chauncey Billups re-signs here. Some other team is going to pay him more money than he's worth.


Holy shit, a realistic sighting (one of my favorite posters).

Hope you stick around, pal.

They are coming out of the woodwork this week.

My question is, who wants Sheed?

I think he's made a strong case for parting ways after his meltdown in Game 6. He's played decently in the playoffs and no one doubts his talents, but his act might be wearing very thin in the front office.

So, who takes on Rasheed in a deal? A team that's on the edge of contending for a title? I love Sheed, but I don't think he's good for this team anymore.

I think his little act last night may prevent us from being able to deal him.

If he's willing to cost his team during crunch time of Game 6 of the ECF and kill their chances if there even was a Game 7 by bringing a suspension onto himself, then I don't see other teams saying, "Yeah, we need that".

I don't get all of the people here that are defending him.

We need more "basketball smarts" on this team and fewer hotheads/loose cannons.

I'd like to get a few cerebral players this summer (thus my interest in Battier.)

i agree, its like in regular life when something goes wrong. some people try to act the most upset about it, and some people just try to fix it.

working the refs is one thing, just being a bonehead is another. sheed did a great job last night of showing that he's the most upset, but how did he help us? however, i do think there is a desperate team out there, actually probably quite a few, that would love to grab sheed from us.

When I think "desperate" I think Boston.

Isiah would take him. Let's try to fleece him.

Isiah would take him. Let's try to fleece him.
That's my kind of thinking.

With the pressure to get KG some inside help, would Minny jump on Sheed and Nazr for their first rounder? That's too much money. Maybe they would do Dyess, Nazr, Delfino and our first for Davis, James and their first? I hate Davis, but his contract (expiring next year) is needed to match.

Well, I might as well get crazy now and continue the youth movement...

Then send LAC Billups for Maggs and their first.

We draft Conley with the Minny pick, Hawes with the Clippers, and Thorton or Young with Orlando's pick and maybe Derek Byers with our pick

PG Conley/James
SG Maggette/Nick Young
SF Tay/Derek Byers
PF Max/Amir
C Sheed/Hawes


Yeah, it will never happen, but look at all the young talent.
First off, where did Rip go? And Davis? Second, is Conley really going to slip to Minny? If he did, and we could do this deal, great, but I don't think they would do that deal. Finally, I don't think Max should be our starter. He is great for energy and everything, but I don't know if I'd want to rely on him to be our starter with no other options in case it doesn't work. I would at least want someone there pushing him for the spot, just in case he's not quite there yet.

First off, where did Rip go? And Davis? Second, is Conley really going to slip to Minny? If he did, and we could do this deal, great, but I don't think they would do that deal. Finally, I don't think Max should be our starter. He is great for energy and everything, but I don't know if I'd want to rely on him to be our starter with no other options in case it doesn't work. I would at least want someone there pushing him for the spot, just in case he's not quite there yet.

Haha, I don't know what happened to RIP. I think I was dealing him in another move and ended up axing him. I'll fix it.

Haha, I don't know what happened to RIP. I think I was dealing him in another move and ended up axing him. I'll fix it.
I would absolutely love that whole group of deals if we ended up dealing Rip or a package of Davis and someone for a starting PF. I'm just not comfortable with Max starting yet.

Also, Billups for Maggette doesn't work, money wise. Maggette makes around 7 million a year. Billups will probably pull in around 13 million. There has to be another 6 million somewhere. I'd love it if we got them to throw Paul Davis in and if we waited until draft day to make the deal would the salary of the drafted player count towards the deal? Either way, we've got a lot of money to make up and I'm not sure what they'd consider sending us as "filler". Maybe we could get Cassell from them if they are getting Chauncey. They wouldn't need him anymore and he'd be a great mentor to the PG we draft. Just my thoughts.

A deal of Chauncey (getting about 13.5mill) for Maggette, Davis, and Zelly would work, as well. They'd get the stud PG, we'd get a shooter, a young developing center, and an experienced vet big.

i'm surprised a few people voted Delfino, considering he seemed to have a decent year with an expanded role.

for those who voted for him, is it to use him as trade bait?


I think the better question is, why do you want Rip gone?

I think the better question is, why do you want Rip gone?

frankly, i think Rip's game is missing what we sorely need: a guy who can take his man off the dribble and penetrate. also, a guy who can dunk the ball, slashing to the lane. stick that type of player at our two guard and I think the whole complexion of our team changes.

on pick and rolls, the SG will be a threat to attack the basket. we can have more penetration, which will lead to defensive breakdowns and kick outs. chauncey can play his role as less of an offensive creator (which he did poorly in the ECF) and more of a facilitator (which he did well all season long). we have absolutely no drive and dish game right now, which would be awesome for easy buckets.

Sounds fair, who would be an attainable upgrade?

I think if we picked up a guy that would be a slasher that can drive the basket and has to have the defense collapse on him, that wouldbe perfect for Rip. He'd be the guy coming off a screen as the D collapses and he'd be wide open for a 12-footer. That's exactly his game. Rip would thrive s the #2 to a slasher/scorer type that commands attention.

I like RIP. While he isn't a true superstar scorer, he's one of the few star SG's that play all out on both ends of the floor. He was our best defender on Lebron, which you could never imagine two years ago. He also improves something every year (defense and 3 point range). This year he suddenly figured out he can face up and drive on many people. He still has a higher cieling IMO. I'd be more apt to move Tay, who I think has reached his cieling (good defender and streaky but never consistant scorer).

I'd rather we kept both of them and picked up someone at another position to be our big improvement. Someone who could dominate and demand a double team in the post would be perfect. Think Sheed if he parked his ass in the post night in and night out. He'd get a lot of good shots and teams would be forced to concentrate on him, leaving other players with more open shots. We all know Sheed isn't going to be that guy, and I have no idea who we could get that would.

Well, I think it will take a player like Tay to get a player you speak of. Either him or RIP. Nobody is going to trade a Gasol type player for Nazr, Delfino, etc.

But would they trade that type of player for Sheed? Or Sheed and some other players/picks?

Well, my thing is that if a team needs Sheed (a big man) enough to want his antics, they probably don't have a big man that we need. The only exception I can think of is NY (they do have some young big men) or Philly (Dalembert). Otherwise you are looking at teams wanting to compliment a big (ie Yao), or teams that don't have one (Lakers).

Chris Webber and Rip Hamilton traded tears in the shower, another premature playoff demise hitting the guy only here for five months as hard as the guy here for five full years.
Does this affect anyone's thinking? Do men crying naked together seem like the tough guys you'd want on a team.

The folks here at WTFDetroit took it a helluva lot worse. Think about us, you pussies!

I think that it's crazy that no one has said anything Prince. He really hasn't contributed in the playoffs he falls apart. I don't understand why all the people that don't play are picked on the most. It's not their fault that Flip Saunders is an idiot. That being said there are some people that shouldn't be playing such as Flip Murray. Dale Davis did fairly well in the playoffs, sure he wasn't a superstar but he wasn't given superstar minutes. For Rip to be up there so highly is crazy. He is the only pistons starter that showed up consistently. Flip Saunders won't be gone whoever said he will. Although everyone wishes that were the case it's just not happening. I love Lindsey he at least still knows how to play defense which if you saw the playoff games clearly is lacking on the Pistons if Lebron can get completely clear shots

I think that it's crazy that no one has said anything Prince. He really hasn't contributed in the playoffs he falls apart.
Prince fell apart because he was physically exhausted. They play him WAY too many minutes in the regular season, and then they stick him on the toughest guy to defend every series. He would have been a lot better if we'd had a reliable backup for him. Delfino is a combo guard, not a swingman. He shouldn't be counted on as much to back up SF. He can play it but he's much better at SG. If we get Tay some rest during the regular season next year, we'll be much better off.

^ same exact thing as last year. It's not gonna happen - Flip Saunders is not going to cut Prince's minutes, so it's a useless suggestion.

Prince fell apart because he was physically exhausted. They play him WAY too many minutes in the regular season, and then they stick him on the toughest guy to defend every series. He would have been a lot better if we'd had a reliable backup for him. Delfino is a combo guard, not a swingman. He shouldn't be counted on as much to back up SF. He can play it but he's much better at SG. If we get Tay some rest during the regular season next year, we'll be much better off.

I love you, Zekyl.

Prince averaged over 36 mpg. and played in all 82 games. You know that they guy has to be somewhat tired. Would it have killed the Pistons to sit him a few games? Every other starter sat a few.

I love you, Zekyl.

Word. This is right on the money. This team cannot be successful unless there is someone out there to spell Tay at the 3.

That's why I think bringing in someone like Grant Hill would be perfect. He's a team player, a leader, a locker room guy. Exactly what we need.

the team needs an attitude adjustment, and a willing to accept they're not good enough and actually work to get better. That's not happened in a while, except for Rip in the off-season.

They just don't have the edge anymore. There is a huge difference, as a fan, in watching the 03 Pistons play to and get bounced in the ECF and then watching this team. There was the excitement and hunger for a title, the chase. Now it's just diminishing returns, a desperate attempt to catch the high of days past.

Hunger, excitement, willingness to LEARN, improve, go balls to the wall. That's what we need, and bounce ANYBODY who doesn't fit in there.

That's why I think bringing in someone like Grant Hill would be perfect. He's a team player, a leader, a locker room guy. Exactly what we need.

I agree. And I think he'd be happy playing 20 minutes of backup duty. People rip on him saying he's washed up, but they expected him to be a #2 option on that team.

the team needs an attitude adjustment, and a willing to accept they're not good enough and actually work to get better. That's not happened in a while, except for Rip in the off-season.
Tayshaun's been improving over the off-season as well, in all sorts of subtle ways. It used to be that brute SFs like LeBron and RJ would unconditionally torch him, and he's gotten a bit better about that. His handle has developed to where he could be a legit "point forward" if we wanted. His rebounding is the big thing that could stand some improvement -- 6-7 rpg would be better.

The problem is -- when you play until June every friggin' year, you need more time to rest and have less time to do so. If you're not on a playoff team, you are usually mailing it in by April and have more time to rest and develop.

Remember, excitement is banned, unless you think the LeBron scowl or Wade's 21st FT counts as excitement. Remember, robots are encouraged. Rasheed doesn't lack enthusiasm, and a lot of people want to throw him over a bus because he's a throwback relative to today's NBA. (He'd be a pig in shit playing in the ABA in the '70s.)

The rebounds I don't blame him for being low. When you guard the primary shooter, you have a harder time being in position for rebounds. I just wish he'd be able to hit %40 of his three pointers. i don't know what his stats are, but he's been missing a ton of wide open threes.

I agree. And I think he'd be happy playing 20 minutes of backup duty. People rip on him saying he's washed up, but they expected him to be a #2 option on that team.
Ever since he left Detroit he hasn't been a #1 or #2 guy. Not since the injury. I think he'd do better going to a place that didn't expect that from him, too. If he came in here and we just expected him to work hard, be a team leader, and just play his game I think it would be perfect for him. Less injuries because he wouldn't be playing too many minutes, too. Just look at McDyess. If he had gone somewhere that expected him to be a bigtime scorer, a #2 guy for them, and he'd been playing a ton of minutes there is no way he'd have been as injury free as he is.

Ever since he left Detroit he hasn't been a #1 or #2 guy. Not since the injury. I think he'd do better going to a place that didn't expect that from him, too. If he came in here and we just expected him to work hard, be a team leader, and just play his game I think it would be perfect for him. Less injuries because he wouldn't be playing too many minutes, too. Just look at McDyess. If he had gone somewhere that expected him to be a bigtime scorer, a #2 guy for them, and he'd been playing a ton of minutes there is no way he'd have been as injury free as he is.

with GHill being such an efficient scorer (about 50% FG in about 30 min) in ORL, our bench would be greatly improved if he could bring that efficiency for about 20 min. a game here.

of course, that wouldn't really help any youth movement here in Detroit, but i think it could help us win sooner rather than later.

with GHill being such an efficient scorer (about 50% FG in about 30 min) in ORL, our bench would be greatly improved if he could bring that efficiency for about 20 min. a game here.

of course, that wouldn't really help any youth movement here in Detroit, but i think it could help us win sooner rather than later.
It could help the youth movement at other positions. Flip tends to bring in the whole bench at the same time, right? So he'd be bringing in a couple young guys along with Hill and whatever 1 or 2 starters he left on the floor. So they'd have a natural leader out there with them, which could really help them just relax and concentrate on the game.

Actually this is a great point. And don't forget that Hill is a decent passer as well, who would likely draw more attention than our rooks.