Ok, before everyone bites my head off and calls me names, please let me state my case.

Sheed is playing REALLY WELL in these playoffs. His trade value is probably as high right now as it is going to get. Is this a good time to move him?

Realistically, he is getting older and his game is getting farther and farther away from the basket. He has decided to take most nights of the regular season off and misses a few games due to suspensions (via techs). There are several teams who would want his services and we have a couple of youngsters in Amir and Max who are chomping at the bit for a chance to play.

Keeping that in mind, do we keep our core together or do we at least consider moving Sheed?

if we lose billups, trade sheed

I think it could be a possibility, depending on how the draft goes. His value is as high as it's going to be from here on out, so if we entertain offers, this is the time to do it. I could see the Lakers being interested, but I'm not sure what we could get from them.

if we lose billups, trade sheed


Yep.

I think it could be a possibility, depending on how the draft goes. His value is as high as it's going to be from here on out, so if we entertain offers, this is the time to do it. I could see the Lakers being interested, but I'm not sure what we could get from them.


Andrew Bynum [smilie=rolleyes.gi:

send him to the blazers for oden:)

Billups is our floor leader, but Sheed is our emotional leader. Trading him would really screw with chemistry.

Billups is our floor leader, but Sheed is our emotional leader. Trading him would really screw with chemistry.

You only trade Sheed if you want to blow this thing up, if you believe that you need to go back and rebuild.
I know I am in the minority, but I don;t see Tashaun developing into a consistent playoff go to guy, Webber is all but dead except for short stretches, and even Hamilton and Billups have shown long periods of ineptitude. Sheed is the only guy I see out there laying it on the line night in and night out in these playoffs.
So do you decide that you need ONE guy that can prolong this thing and get another ring or two in the next three to four years, or do you blow it up by getting rid of Wallace?
Those who say Sheed's value is the highest it's going to be make a point for keeping him. If he's that good, he will be for another two to three years. Who you gonna trade him for? What are you going to get in return? Kobe? Garnet? a first round pick in a future draft? More bench help?
This team needs a Microwave, someone they KNOW will hit the shot. I don't see this current lineup needing much else to challenge for the NBA title for a couple more years.

I'm with Zip on this 100%. Maybe if Billups decides to go elsewhere and we go with a youth movement we can trade Sheed, but otherwise I'd keep him here for sure. If we trade him it means we're blowing up the team, in which case Billups is gone, which means McDyess will probably be gone, and we wouldn't be bringing Webber back, and then who mentors the young guys. We have a nice group of young forwards with Amir, Max, and possibly Samb (at least for preseason stuff) and it would be nice to have a nice casual guy that knows how to get shit done teaching them.

weird that he's the only guy serving the cavs out there, and we start a rrade thread. Maybe Jon Saunders was right about detroit fans.

I started the thread because I want the Pistons to be competitive next year and the year after that. Sheed is playing really well but he took most of the regular season off and i'm sure that he will again next season. Now he's playing great and his trade value is the highest it's going to be. I fear that Chicago and Cleveland will get better and the Pistons will lose ground. I just see this as a chance to get younger WHILE keeping most of the rest of the team intact.

There are some very good players that we could get in return. Odom+ from LAL is an option. What about Diaw + filler + one of the Suns firsts? There are countless other deals. I'm not saying that we should DUMP him. I'm just trying to guage what others think.

As for his attutude and leaderdship, it's really been a double edged sword. He has brought the good along with the bad (techs, whining about fouls, laziness during reg. season games, etc.)

If Billups goes, blow it up. Period. I don't really see any other options, we're not going to replace Chauncey with someone of equal caliber, and Webber will be more ineffective next year. We'll have no choice but to start (relatively) fresh.

weird that he's the only guy serving the cavs out there, and we start a rrade thread. Maybe Jon Saunders was right about detroit fans.

What, that we're always on the verge of suicide?

I don't think I'd trade Sheed for Diaw. Diaw is perfect for the Suns system, but I don't know if he'd be all that affecting in a slower style system like ours.

Sheed is playing really well but he took most of the regular season off and i'm sure that he will again next season.

He has brought the good along with the bad (techs, whining about fouls, laziness during reg. season games, etc.)


Thanks for the laughs.

Did you plan on making an insightful comment of some value or just make a snide comment?

My comments were accurate whether you like them of not. I'm not the only person here to admit that Sheed really doesn't play hard during the regular season. His tech habit has spread to Rip and his whining about calls has spread to the whole team. On the other hand he has brought a toughness and swagger that has helped this team immensely. Like I said, the good and the bad.

I agree with you, I've always wondered if the reason he just shot 3's all the time was because he was too lazy to go down in the post.

If you look at Sheed early in his career he was really a great post player and played their a lot. As the years have gone on, he has moved farther and farther outside. He can because he is a good 3 pt. shooter and it draws out the other teams PF but our rebounding suffers.

I think it's combination of laziness and him just not wanting all of the contact. You can see how much better he is when he gets aggressive.

Did you plan on making an insightful comment of some value or just make a snide comment?

My comments were accurate whether you like them of not. I'm not the only person here to admit that Sheed really doesn't play hard during the regular season. His tech habit has spread to Rip and his whining about calls has spread to the whole team. On the other hand he has brought a toughness and swagger that has helped this team immensely. Like I said, the good and the bad.


So now he's the cancer thats ruining the team too? Wow.

I didn't think that was snide. It was a way of saying I disagree. My bad. Snide to me is like saying, 'thats a fucking stupid post' or 'put the crack pipe down' or 'what season were you watching" or something. Or I hate frogs tatts or something.

So I'll just go with this is another post that singles out Sheed as the cancer and wrongully so.

In no was did I say that he was a cancer that's ruining the team. If you don't hink that he has brought some bad habits to the team, then I think that you're wrong but that's your choice. This post isn't an "I hate Sheed" post. It's a post asking opinions if it's worth trading Sheed while his value is at it's highest.

I think that you are looking at this post the wrong way and I also think that you owe me an apology for your last little outburst that was obviously out of line. The fact that several other posters have agreed with me or at least recognized the possibility of my suggestion means that your "snide" somments are inappropriate.

I'll talk about trading any player the that is currently on the roster. But you came with the usual 'sheeds the bad guy' stuff, it's laughable to me. If you stuck with 'his trade value is the highest right now' routine, I'd go with that, but the compliments to Sheed are generally disguised with 'Sheeds the bad guy' 'Sheeds the reason we lost' stuff.


So you're saying its a stretch for me to boil down your comments that he is a cancer when you said that 'other are now bitching about foul calls? Give me a break. NBA players, and more specifically the Pistons, have been bitching about foul calls long before Sheed arrived at the Palace.

And specifically you want me to appologize for what statement? The LOL thing?

I'll talk about trading any player the that is currently on the roster. But you came with the usual 'sheeds the bad guy' stuff, it's laughable to me. If you stuck with 'his trade value is the highest right now' routine, I'd go with that, but the compliments to Sheed are generally disguised with 'Sheeds the bad guy' 'Sheeds the reason we lost' stuff.


So you're saying its a stretch for me to boil down your comments that he is a cancer when you said that 'other are now bitching about foul calls? Give me a break. NBA players, and more specifically the Pistons, have been bitching about foul calls long before Sheed arrived at the Palace.

And specifically you want me to appologize for what statement? The LOL thing?

The "Snide to me is like saying, 'thats a fucking stupid post' or 'put the crack pipe down' or 'what season were you watching" or something. Or I hate frogs tatts or something. " statement.

Honestly he didn't say anything that indicated Rasheed was a cancer to the team. When you think of a cancer you think of a guy who disrupts the team chemistry and harmony and as far as I can tell (or unless we don't really know what goes on in the lockerroom) it's an extremely tight knit group. Not someone whose attitude or competitive "fire" rubs off on the other players



....in the form of complaining and techs.

Sheed is in the best shape of his life right now. We've been waiting for him to work that hard for 3 years.

No thanks, we're finally starting to get our money's worth for the guy. He's back to being one of the best big men in the NBA, and I have no desire to see him go.

Sheed is in the best shape of his life right now. We've been waiting for him to work that hard for 3 years.

No thanks, we're finally starting to get our money's worth for the guy. He's back to being one of the best big men in the NBA, and I have no desire to see him go.

I agree with Kstat.

Sheed is in the best shape of his life right now. We've been waiting for him to work that hard for 3 years.

No thanks, we're finally starting to get our money's worth for the guy. He's back to being one of the best big men in the NBA, and I have no desire to see him go.

I'm almost 100% sure that he was more dominant with the Blazers back in the days with Damon Stoudamire.

Anyways, if we lose Billups, chances of us contending with the Bulls or any other Eastern team that gets stronger during the offseason are low. Sure we could go look for another option but there is no one to replace him via free agency, which is why I would love to have Billups basically guarantee hes coming back. If hes going to leave, Id love for him to tell the organization before the draft so we can trade up, etc. Of course it's all going to come down to the money on July 1..

To me, the Billups and Sheed pick and roll is so valuable for each other. When CB uses the pick and does the little hesitation move, both billups and rasheeds check come to CB leaving Sheed an open 3. Rasheed is still a great player, especially in the low block, but he gets so much more freedom because Billups is that damn good.

Let's say Billups bolts to another team such as the Bucks or Grizz...how do we get better? use Flip as our point? trade dice for an mle type point guard? because MLE type point guards now a days dont get the job done. we trade sheed and fillers to get the one guard we need, someone who can control the tempo and speed of the game, and of course hit big shots. losing billups hurts and without a good 1 guard, we cant compete. However losing Sheed also hurts, but we have enough bigman to come in and replace him although we lose so much from rasheed.

dont get me wrong, sheeds my 2nd favorite piston right now, billups being my first.

I started the thread because I want the Pistons to be competitive next year and the year after that.
Lie to the new people but don't lie to me. You've been on an anti-sheed campaign for awhile now. Almost as bad as Kstats anti-Ben crusade and just as strong as ESPN's LEBRON man crush. Or have you forgotten?
http://www.wtfdetroit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7923

Micknugget you're a great poster and I have nothing but respect for you. But your timing(2 wins from the NBA Finals) on bullshitting about sheed is ridiculously out of place. If anything he deserves some appreciation for his effort.

Furthermore, until you find proof. Not chris Sheridan insinuating proof. But hard solid proof of teammates, former pistons teammates, Pistons Coaches, Former Pistons coaches, and/or people in the organization looking at sheed as a cancer. Your cancer talk is your own propaganda and not even a leit thing to bring up period.

I'm almost 100% sure that he was more dominant with the Blazers back in the days with Damon Stoudamire. .
I'm 110 percent sure he was required to with damon stoudemire as his facilitator. Same for Webber and Dyess. Nobody who comes to this team is putting up the same numbers they did somewhere else. Too much talent and team basketball taking place for that.

I'm surprised people jump on a guy for bringing up an interesting discussion. Sheed's trade value is pretty high right now, and our team is getting older. To me, depending on how this postseason plays out, it's worth looking at. It's all about making the correct move before it's obvious, same as Joe did with the Stackhouse-Rip deal. I love this current squad, but they play almost too relaxed sometimes. I'd love to see a killer instinct kick in where they just jump on a team and don't let up. Could that be done by trading Sheed for a new piece? Possibly, and it's definitely worth discussing.

I'm surprised people jump on a guy for bringing up an interesting discussion.
I'd be too if that was people's reasoning. but again the timing and the repeated agenda itself are played out. but whatever, i'm out of this. have fun.[smilie=heatsmiley2:

B4 i go, the stack deal had more to do with him having a lame duck contract year and requiring a max contract for his services which were not worth a max contract. It also had alot to do with his not so clutch playoff performances.

On most teams I think it would be advantageous to talk about swapping out starters for success, and it certainly did happen earlier this season with Webber, but I'm not sure it's a good idea here. 4 of these 5 guys have been together for a long time. You shouldn't be making any changes here unless you absolutely have to, as we did when we lost Ben Wallace. I agree that Sheed seems to have gotten softer and slower, but unless he has some kind of total collapse, he has to stay. Trading Sheed means blowing up and rebuilding, IMHO.

Lie to the new people but don't lie to me. You've been on an anti-sheed campaign for awhile now. Almost as bad as Kstats anti-Ben crusade and just as strong as ESPN's LEBRON man crush. Or have you forgotten?
http://www.wtfdetroit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7923

Micknugget you're a great poster and I have nothing but respect for you. But your timing(2 wins from the NBA Finals) on bullshitting about sheed is ridiculously out of place. If anything he deserves some appreciation for his effort.

Furthermore, until you find proof. Not chris Sheridan insinuating proof. But hard solid proof of teammates, former pistons teammates, Pistons Coaches, Former Pistons coaches, and/or people in the organization looking at sheed as a cancer. Your cancer talk is your own propaganda and not even a leit thing to bring up period.

You are right that I was on an anti-Sheed campaign for a long time. Hell, it was even in my sig. I am not nearly as anit-Sheed as I used to be and i've been really impressed with the effort and heart he has shown in the playoffs this year. I still get a little tweaked when people say that it was Sheeds attitude and leadership that won this team a championship. It kinda lessens what the other guys did and if you recall, they had gotten to the ECF before Sheed but were swept when Billups got hurt. I see Sheed as more of the missing piece to the puzzle as opposed to the key to the treasure chest.

My timing is brought up more so by actually seeing other teams play. Chicago looks like a really good team as do the Cavs. I only expect those teams to get better and I am looking at ways to make the team stay ompetitive and younger while not blowing it up. Rip and Price are still both in their prime and we've already had all kinds of Billups discussions. Webber will be a free agent and he's old so that leads to Sheed. I'm not even saying that the Pistons SHOULD trade him now. I was just starting the discussion. I never said that he was a cancer and don't know why everyone keeps saying that. The only comment I made was that he brings some bad habits along with the good ones. That is the absolute truth but it is also a reason that we have been so competitive.

This is going to be one of the more interesting off-seasons in Pistons history:

Who will we draft with our two firsts?
Will Webber re-sign?
Will Billups re-sign?
Will Dice return?
Will we bring over Acker?
Will we bring over Samb?
Will we keep our best prospect in Amir and for how much?
Will this team get blown up (if Billups leaves)?

This was just supposed to start discussions, not a war of words.

Can we all at least agree this team was bitch made before Rasheed got here? Regardless of how he has affected the team with his attitude...

I only trade Sheed if Billups leaves. Right now we have a championship caliber team, and will for another few years IMO. You cannot replace Sheed's talent, even if you draft a decent center (Hawes) and he pans out. At least not fast enough to use him as a 30 MPG center in the next 2-3 years anyway. I say get while the getting is good.

It would have to be a monster offer for me to bite, and we'd also have to have a replacement center on deck too (like Hawes for example).

I'm still not all that sold on Hawes. I haven't seen him play that I can think of, so maybe he's great, but from what I've read he's really unathletic. How many big gumpy unathletic guys are really catching on long term in the league these days? There are still a few older guys hanging around because they've proven themselves, but the emphasis has been on pushing for athletic big men these days. But like I said, I haven't seen him and maybe he'd be a solid replacement if we were to lose one of our big men.

He sounds like the perfect compliment to Max if you ask me. Max is quicker, shorter, better in the post than outside. granted, i've never seen him play and I'm trusting their scouting report.

He is compared to Brad Miller or Vlade on these sites...

From NBAdraft.net:


Strengths: Hawes is very long and has very good hands. He runs the floor very well for his size. His ball-handling, is fantastic, especially in the open court, as he played a lot of guard before his reaching his full height. Hawes is very smooth on the court, and has a great, soft touch around the basket. He possesses good shooting form, and has range out to three point distance, but is only consistent to about 18 feet. He is very fundamentally sound, with excellent footwork in the post. He will immediately be one of the best passing big men in the country, whether it’s out of the post, double team, in the open court, or on the perimeter. He is a decent shot-blocker, but does position himself well on defense.

Weaknesses: Definitely needs to bulk up more for life in the paint in college. He needs to develop alternate post moves. He lacks great quickness. He will occasionally settle for taking outside shots instead of attacking from the post. His rebounding skills could be improved. Spencer is not an amazing athlete and has trouble with smaller quicker opponents. He could improve his overall defense.

Notes: Hawes chose Washington over North Carolina, Connecticut, and Stanford, among others. He participated in the 2006 McDonalds All-American game. Won a state title as a senior, after somehow not qualifying for the state tournament as a junior with 2005 lottery pick Martell Webster in the lineup with him.
Logan Lemberger - 4/8/2006
Strengths: A center with very good offensive understanding with developed moves ... Has a sweet offensive repertoire with hooks and drop steps ...A tough nosed player with great attitude ... Has the ability to use either hand inside with very good touch ... Has a good frame with long arms and excellent hands ... Competitive and very coachable ... Good passer ... Hard worker whose game has improved leaps and bounds in a short time ... Good athlete, gets up and down the floor well ...

Weaknesses: His legs are still weak, must add strength to his lower body ... Has good toughness, but must get stronger and more consistent ... Not an imposing force defensively or a great shot blocker, but improving defensively ...

Notes: Would be the top rated center in most classes (Oden) ... Comes from a very tall family, both parents are very tall (his Uncle Steve played in the NBA)



From scouts:


Basketball runs in the family. Uses both hands to finish around the basket. Can play facing the basket and is comfortable shooting on the perimeter. Has improved each senior and confidence is sky rocketing. Like most young bigs, strength will come and help his game. Loves to play and work on game.

From DraftExpress:


While neither player “wowed” anyone with their performance, clearly Hawes got the better end of the duel of seven footers. The freshman displayed more upside and a higher skill level, although was clearly outmatched physically by the girth of Pitt center Aaron Gray (http://www.draftexpress.com/viewprofile.php?p=453). His combination of excellent footwork, outside shooting stroke, and post moves that even many NBA veterans lack are what separate him from any other center prospect in the 2007 NBA Draft not named Greg Oden (http://www.draftexpress.com/viewprofile.php?p=237).

Offensively, we have not seen a more polished center at the collegiate level in recent memory. He has every single post move in the book, along with the ability to go to those moves with either hand. He is awfully hard to predict since he goes to both his left and right shoulders equally well, with no problems shooting a turnaround jumper or jump hook regardless of what direction he goes. Hawes' soft touch with either hand is awfully rare for a big man prospect (evidenced by his 54.1% field goal percentage), and makes him an absolute nightmare for bigger, less mobile centers such as Gray.

What really sets Hawes apart from other center prospects, aside from his gorgeous post moves, is his ability to play the high post and pass the ball for a seven footer. He showed countless times throughout the game that he had no problem knocking down contested jump shots all the way out to the collegiate three point line. He also showed no problems whatsoever playing the high post as the game went on, letting fellow Huskies Jon Brockman (http://www.draftexpress.com/viewprofile.php?p=1168) and Artem Wallace do the majority of their damage on the low blocks.

The 2006 McDonald’s All American displayed his outstanding court vision throughout the game, whether it be from the perimeter or down on the low blocks. He had no problem throwing lob passes into Brockman throughout the game, allowing his former AAU teammate to convert easy lay-ups inside. What NBA scouts find more valuable however, was his ability to recognize double teams and consistently make the right pass out of them. His vision, ability to throw skip passes, and interior passing skills easily rank amongst the top two or three centers in the college game, and only make him that much more attractive to NBA teams.

Defensively, Hawes brings quite a bit to the table for a seven footer despite his relatively small frame. His 7’1 wingspan (as measured at the 2006 Nike Hoop Summit) and excellent timing allow him to be a shot blocking presence, although he doesn’t have the explosive leaping ability of a Greg Oden (http://www.draftexpress.com/viewprofile.php?p=237) or Sean Williams (http://www.draftexpress.com/viewprofile.php?p=392). His position defense is generally solid, as he uses his heady play to guard each man differently and make up for his lack of bulk inside. However, as shown with this matchup with Gray, he does seem to struggle a bit once bigger post players get him on their back and seal him, as evidenced by the two successful buckets that Gray did convert in the game. Spencer has lost quite a bit of weight over the last few months due to an illness, and should look to bulk up to around 240 lbs. for pre-draft workouts in order to compete physically with stronger center prospects such as Greg Oden (http://www.draftexpress.com/viewprofile.php?p=237), Aaron Gray (http://www.draftexpress.com/viewprofile.php?p=453), and Roy Hibbert (http://www.draftexpress.com/viewprofile.php?p=585).

The most major concern about Spencer, however, has been his lack of rebounding, and perceived lack of toughness. Averaging only 6.0 rebounds per game, he is amongst the worst rebounding center prospects in this draft. This is puzzling however, as the Seattle native was a proven rebounder on the high school and AAU levels before his arrival at UW. Many have accredited this to his a perceived lack of toughness and strength on the defensive end, but fail to realize that he is playing alongside Jon Brockman (http://www.draftexpress.com/viewprofile.php?p=1168), who is an absolute monster on the glass. Either way though, it would help Hawes’ draft stock mightily and eliminate plenty of concerns amongst NBA scouts if he is able to finish out his freshman season on a strong note in the rebounding column.

He sounds pretty good to me kinda like C. Webb plays now only much younger. Considering our alternatives (C. Webb or Nazr) i'd like to see him in a Pistons uniform.

Chris, I stand corrected. He sounds great. Maybe picking him up early and getting a backup PG later would work out pretty well for us.

joe fiddled while rome burned. whats the point of bringing sheed back? so we can make a solid run at the eastern conference semi finals next year?

and hell yea hes a cancer. pistons 2004 pre-sheed: going to work. look at us now. this team is whine (sic) and cheese.

there would be nothing less legit than winning the ecf this year. the east is rivalling its early 2000's low point and the pistons are going to need 7 games to make it to the finals- if they make it to the finals- just to bend over to the spurs.

cashing in on sheed's good post season is a very sensible plan.

Pistons 2004 pre-Sheed: going to work and losing 7 straight games.

Fuck, the way I feel today, trade Sheed and Chauncey.

LOL. I was thinking the same thing. I mean, no one turned the ball over till CBill got here and those bad habits rubbed off on the rest of the team. No one took ill-advised shots till he got here too. jfwymn

LOL. I was thinking the same thing. I mean, no one turned the ball over till CBill got here and those bad habits rubbed off on the rest of the team. No one took ill-advised shots till he got here too. jfwymn

omg chauncey is a cancer thanks for the laughs :/

I'm still not all that sold on Hawes. I haven't seen him play that I can think of, so maybe he's great, but from what I've read he's really unathletic. How many big gumpy unathletic guys are really catching on long term in the league these days? There are still a few older guys hanging around because they've proven themselves, but the emphasis has been on pushing for athletic big men these days. But like I said, I haven't seen him and maybe he'd be a solid replacement if we were to lose one of our big men.
Im still not sold on athletic big men...

This whole revolution the west is going through, ala phoenix, with running teams has not proven anything.
Big fucking whoop, they can win reg season games, but they cant do shit in the playoffs. The ONLY reason Phoenix is any good, is because they have Nash. There is no chance that any other team who tries to emulate their play will do anything.

Why try to put a fast team together, when it has been proven time and time again that defence wins fucking championships?
Are teams really this stupid?

I don't know, Phoenix's big men show up for the postseason. They don't show up enough, but they show up. Which is why they make it to round 2 and get eliminated.

I can't rip on Phoenix or their big men this season after the whole suspensions thing in the playoffs. The San Antonio Thugs need to have an asterick next to their name if they do end up winning it all.

"asterick" lol

You've been listening to too much sports radio.

Truth of the matter is that this team, for being so praised for embracing the "team concept" and being unselfish, frankly does not work together that well. A team that works together well is a team that understands what each player can do, and then creates the space for those players to do that. That makes it easy for each player to get out on the floor and find their rhythm every single game.

In the NBA, with young guys, big paychecks, and huge egos, it's pretty rare that a team is going to figure this out on their own. (Rarer still if the team doesn't take its practice time seriously.) It takes a strong coach to make this happen, one whose authority holds weight with the players.

I've been thinking about this a lot over the last few days, and this is where I've landed. I don't think any trades are necessary right now...not yet. But these are the ideas that have occurred to me:

1. Lose Flip Saunders. He's not a bad coach, he's just not a good fit here. His accomplishments are appreciated. He's gotten valuable experience that will probably land him a great job with another team. Good luck to you in your future endeavors, Coach.

2. Bring in a real authoritative coach. Maybe even an authoritarian coach. Someone experienced. I'd be happy to see Larry Brown come back if he weren't such an unprofessional asshole on the business end of things.

These decisions will lead to more.

3. Start getting serious about working on shots during practice. These guys are not missing shots because that's their style. That is not an acceptable answer. Accuracy is a serious problem with the Pistons and it can be improved with conscientious work.

4. Blow up the playbook and start fresh with an open mind. Don't look at the team you had in 2004, look at the team you have now. What works? What skills can you count on from each player to create scoring opportunities?

5. Make Sheed work out. Take a look at Rasheed Wallace in his Portland days, and look at him now. Yeah, he's got some years on him, but he looks like he's been spending this year playing World of Warcraft. He's lost a step from age, no question, but he's also lost his entire low-post game due to the fact that his entire torso has turned slackmeat, and tipoffs make him winded. If he keeps this up he's going to be a black hole of injuries.

6. For christ's sake, give us a C. We're dying under the bucket. I don't care who it is. It can be Max. In fact, it should be.

That's it.

Man I love sheed and love chauncey but we have to get younger right now. I'm not saying we can't still win this series because I think we can. We just have to deal w/ the bs officials and stern trying to get his superstar to the finals again. Here's a scenario, tell me what you guys think.

Scenario 1:
Sign Billups to 60m for 4 years (12m/yr).
Trade Billups to ATL for their #3 pick and we swap our #16 with their 11.
Trade our #11 pick and Sheed to Seattle for their #2
Draft Durant
Draft Mike Conley Jr. at #3
Draft either a big man or atheletic slasher (Daquan Cook?)

So our lineup would be
Maxiel/Nazr
Durant/Dice/Amir
Prince/Delfino
Hamilton/Delfino/Cook
Conley/Flip/Blalock

This is just for fun, because even if we can somehow pull off winning this series I think we need a change.

[smilie=blaha.gif]

No way Seattle does that deal, IMO. I wouldn't be opposed to moving either Billups and/or Sheed though if the deal was good enough.

No way Seattle does that deal, IMO. I wouldn't be opposed to moving either Billups and/or Sheed though if the deal was good enough.

me too. maybe we should try a billups for the #2 instead of trading sheed and just not take mike conley jr...:(

Pretty fun idea though

What about S&T Billups + #27 (or maybe #15 if we're deperate) to Memphis for Swift, Stoudamire, and #4 (Conley).

Our lineup would be:
Swift/Maxiel/Nazr
Sheed/Dice/Amir
Prince/Delfino
Hamilton/Flip/Delfino
Conley/Staoudamire/Flip/Blalock

Plus we'd still have a first!

I know the main purpose of this trade was to get the #4 but Swift is worthless athletic trash. There is a reason he never played with Gasol being injured...and i dont think he could play the center spot for very long

I'm kind of hesitant to go under the #3 spot because ATL might take Conley, although there are rumors of Atlatna taking another forward

How about some help for the celtics?

Sheed for the #5, theos HUGE expiring contract and ryan gomes to back up both the forwward spots

Pierce, Jefferson, and Rondo could really benefit from having Sheed , a playoff experienced vet, and the fact that hes just that damn good

Well, now it looks like a good portion of the board wants to trade Sheed after teh whole Cavs debacle. I guess this thread isn't so laughable anymore. Who do you think that the potential suitors are and what is Sheed worth?

Is it too wacky to think Garnett?
The Pistons, if they trade Sheed, would probably try to move him to the Western Conference, so what if they package Wallace and both first rounders for Garnett? Maybe throw in Flip Murray!

I'm not sure about Golden State's cap situation but they aren't afraid of bad boys. They kind of remind me of the Raiders of basketball.

Hmmm.....I'd love to get KG but I think they can get more than Sheed and a couple of firsts (even if we add superstud Flip Murray)!

I could see him going to GS but I wonder what they would offer. I really like J. Rich and Matt Barnes (is he a FA?)

KG the Piston would be the only thing to not make me depressed next season.

*cough*tradesheedbacktoportlandforoden*cough*

If we do a S&T with Billups, I'd take expiring contracts after 1 year for Sheed then go buy a younger FA. We'll know more of what we need in a year. That might be a crazy thought though. And this is if JoeD blows this thing up.

After Sheed's breakdown in yesterday's game I'm no sure what team would take him at any real value. We're eating cornbread to think we can get anything for him right now.
But I would like him to go. He was a huge asset for us and I appreciate us, but his whining has infected our team and they can't get past it.

After Sheed's breakdown in yesterday's game I'm no sure what team would take him at any real value. We're eating cornbread to think we can get anything for him right now.


That was not in the top 10 of things Sheed has done in his career to lower his supposed trade value.

That was not in the top 10 of things Sheed has done in his career to lower his supposed trade value.

100% correct. We're talking about a guy with serious anger management issues who is known to personally threaten refs and smokes more weed than Tommy Chong and Vaughn Bode combined.

I have the same anger management problems Rasheed has, so I guess that's why I'm sympathetic towards him for that.

I'm just not a whiner and don't smoke weed.

I'm thinking teams probably would have overlooked much of his past given the last 2 1/2 years being part of a TEAM and not the disgruntled, troubled superstar. But then the final meltdown proved that nothing had changed. Atlanta got him cheap, then we did too. Last year we could have gotten something for him. This year we can't. We would be lucky to get an 8th man or late first round pick, plus we would have to take on some horrific salary. Why does it feel like Steve Francis might be our next PG? Yuck. Probably the best we could do is Sheed and a first round pick for Juwan Howard and Shane Battier. Actually, that might not be too bad.

Here we go boys, you want rings? Well, lets say hypothetically Bill Davidson wants some more, opens up the purse a little bit. Imagine on draft day, you sit on your couch, and the pistons make a selection at #15. Breaking news, a trade has come in.

DET trades
Rasheed Wallace
Richard Hamilton
Flip Murray
#15
#27

Detroit receives
Kobe Bryant
Vladamir Radmanovic

Why for Detroit?
Its a superstars league, and the best there will be is available and in search of rings. Detroit resigns Chauncey Billups, and becomes the instant favorite in the East.
Why for LAL?
Kobe wants out, (supposedly) and the Lakers rebuild beautifully with unselfish players hungry for rings. They also have a young and talented bench.

LAL lineup
PG Flip Murray/Smush Parker/Jordan Farmar
SG Rip Hamilton/ Maurice Evans
SF Lamar Odom/ Luke Walton
PF Rasheed Wallace/ Brian Cook
C Kwame Brown/Andrew Bynum
Plus throw in 5 draft picks, 3 first rounders for depth.

DET Lineup
PG Chauncey Billups/no backup needed (get to that later)
SG Kobe Bryant/ Carlos Delfino
SF Tayshaun Prince/Morris Peterson
PF Antonio McDyess/ Jason Maxiell
C Nazr Mohammed/Chris Webber

All 3 of the big 3 will handle the PG minutes

Do this trade, and we are looking at the main contender in the east. Thoughts?

I'd love that trade, as mentioned before, its a superstars league...Kobe can dominate a game, score at will, and make everybody around him better...


Hopefully Kupchack can't get a deal done to bring Jermaine in so he can get rid of him...

and we'd need Flip Murray to exercise his player option

I think Kobe's wife would take that 4 million dollar ring off and throw it at Kobe, taking out an eye if he would OK a trade to Detroit.
I'm sure he has some veto power on a trade, and all I've been hearing has him singing "Chicago is my kind of town, Chicago is..." (at least as far as the two hundred million beat writers ESPN radio has talked to since the Kobe meltdown on Stephen A Smiths show).

You are right Zip, he does have a trade clause, but I don't think his wife will be moving to Detroit, why would she? Just stay in LA and charge up that black credit card.

Kobe is going to hate that trade. There's no way he's going to love playing on the Pistons without Sheed. Remember we killed the lakers when kobe could have had that ring? It would be like trading Tayshaun to the Spurs. Kobe tothe Pistons is like having Raja Bell teaming with Kobe

If I was Kobe and Jermaine O'Neal was the best they can do I'd be wanting right the fuck out.

Besides Vanessa wouldn't come to Detroit because she knows I'm on the loose.

Besides Vanessa wouldn't come to Detroit because she knows I'm on the loose.
timbeau0805 = Karl Malone

at this point I am done with Sheed. Pack your bags. I could live with his whining, but he intentionally fouled Lebron for his own agenda, and then went off. He put his vendetta with the refs ahead of the team. Period.

I wonder how this effects his value too. Maybe a team figures they can get a couple years out of him before he wears on you.

If given Ritalin and a coach who wasn't afraid to kick him in the butt (because he's on Ritalin and couldn't go crazy on you), would he have ended up like Tim Duncan?

timbeau0805 = Karl Malone

Lol, you heard it here first folks.


*does deliver on Sundays though*

Sheed (12.5 Mil) + Nazr (5.6 mil) + Flip (1.9 mil) + #15

For

Dalembert (9.7 mil) + Korver (4.4 mil) + McKie (7 mil) + #12


Or instead of swapping #12 and #15...we could swap #21 and #27

I hate Korver, but his contract is slightly smaller than Nazr and he's slightly more usefull.

McKie's a Laker.

But we could always find a way to trade him to Philly for Igudola :D

I think the best strategy for trading Sheed is to sit and wait to find out where LB winds up, and then trade him there.

Outside of that strategy, if the Jerm O'Neal for Odom/Bynum trade falls apart, the Lakers would be a nice match. Odom for Sheed.

That kind of flies in the face of my new "adding cerebral players" mantra, but what the fuck are you gonna do? There are like what, 10 cerebral players in the league these days?

The 'Sheed conundrum

Having said that, a word here for several Pistons before they board the airplanes. First, Antonio McDyess. There's not a player or fan who doesn't feel badly for this guy. The ultimate rehabilitation story, McDyess, 32, fought everything to get back to the point of contributing, and for three straight seasons has been stopped short of rainbow's end. He was devastated after Game 6, and there is no telling what might have been had he not been ejected early in the Game 5 marathon. He is a gentleman and a damn hard worker and he deserves better, he really does.

Chris Webber? It would have been a good story. And certainly, at times, in the regular season, he looked like the steal of the century. But as the playoffs wore on, he wore out, and those of us who remember him at his prime can't believe how old he has gotten on the floor. At times, even jumping seemed like an effort. And remember, he was healthy this year. At 34, and a free agent, he is likely looking for something the Pistons can't -- and shouldn't -- provide. And I think he bit his tongue about playing time in the playoffs, because he was still the new guy. A full year of that won't sit well with anybody.

Rasheed? Well, Dumars knew when he traded for him he was dancing with a grizzly bear. You love his power, but you always wonder when he'll turn on you. Detroit would not have won its title without this guy. No question about that. But depending on an undependable player wears you out. And guys like Chauncey and Tayshaun making excuses for Wallace's stupidly childish behavior and ejection in Game 6 -- "That's just 'Sheed," Chauncey said. "Woulda, coulda, shoulda," Tayshaun said -- is beneath them.

'Sheed is a dilemma for Dumars, the president of basketball operations, because cutting him out would be like dropping an engine, but keeping him is like waiting for that engine to explode. Quality big men are so hard to find in this league, but as long as Wallace is there, the coach is never going to be fully effective. That's a problem -- especially in the playoffs.

And Mxy, I do love Mexican girls. So maybe you're right :x

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/2007/06/05/2007-06-05_knicks_could_feel_need_for_rasheed.html


Knicks could feel need for Rasheed

By Frank Isola
Tuesday, June 5th 2007, 4:00 AM

The ugly ending to Rasheed Wallace's season could be the start of something encouraging for the Knicks.

Isiah Thomas is in the market for a rugged power forward to play alongside Eddy Curry, and Thomas may look to revisit acquiring Wallace, the volatile Pistons veteran who fouled out and was ejected in the fourth quarter of Detroit's season-ending loss in Cleveland in Game 6 of the Eastern Conference finals. There already is talk of the Pistons breaking up their team after losing four straight games to LeBron James and the Cavaliers. Wallace, who is signed through the 2009 season, is the most logical choice to be moved.

When Thomas first assumed control of the Knicks, he twice tried to trade for Wallace, who instead landed in Atlanta and then Detroit. Thomas never got over losing Wallace to his former teammate, Pistons GM Joe Dumars, and has told associates that Wallace would have made the Knicks a perennial playoff team.

Thomas has his sights set on Jermaine O'Neal, Kevin Garnett and Pau Gasol, but Wallace is a more realistic option. It is unclear if Dumars is prepared to trade Wallace or if he has interest in any of the Knicks' players. Another factor could be the influence of Garden chairman James Dolan, who once swore off bringing in players he felt would embarrass the franchise.

Wallace, 32, is one of the league's top power forwards but has a history of undermining himself and his team with his abrasive antics. On Saturday, Wallace was called for three fouls in a span of 39 seconds, fouling out of the game. He immediately lost control of his emotions, was thrown out and began screaming profanities at referees and Cavs players. Because Wallace had accrued seven technical fouls in the playoffs he would have been suspended had there been a Game 7.

Does Sheed get suspended for the opening game of the next regular season owing to the techs?

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/2007/06/05/2007-06-05_knicks_could_feel_need_for_rasheed.html

the only guy off the entire knick roster i'd have interest in is david lee, and maybe renaldo balkman (not sure). i think we'd need a 3rd team, maybe involve the bucks getting francis.

Does Sheed get suspended for the opening game of the next regular season owing to the techs?
yes

If Crawford and Jeffries didn't each have 3+ years left on their deals I would consider that, but they do.

Crawford could be our bench scorer and combo guard, and Jeffries could backup Tay.

Too many years left, though.

crawford is the biggest blackhole in the league. its ridiculous. if that was fixable, i'd like him. he's the prototype for guy who needed years of college hoops.

In some cases (not necessarily Crawford) "black holes" are playing for championships these days.

What can the Knicks offer us? Frye and some bad contracts?

I'd like to move Sheed to Houston for Battier and Howard (filler and expiring).

Then move Prince and Nazr for Randolph.

Sign Grant Hill cheap to backup Battier.

Resign Billups

Draft Hawes (#15) and Pruitt (#27).

PG Billups/Pruitt/Murray
SG RIP/Delfino/Murray
SF Battier/Hill/Dupree
PF Dyess/Maxiell/Amir
C Randolph/Hawes/Amir

Thoughts?

That's an interesting... if a bit lengthy plan (each one sort of relies on the other deal(s) to work.

What can the Knicks offer us? Frye and some bad contracts?

I'd like to move Sheed to Houston for Battier and Howard (filler and expiring).

Then move Prince and Nazr for Randolph.

Sign Grant Hill cheap to backup Battier.

Resign Billups

Resign Dale Davis (with Nazr, Sheed, Webber gone he'll have a role)

Draft Hawes (#15) and Pruitt (#27).

PG Billups/Pruitt/Murray
SG RIP/Delfino/Murray
SF Battier/Hill/Dupree
PF Dyess/Maxiell/Amir
C Randolph/Davis/Amir

Thoughts?

You need to add Hawes and Howard to your depth chart.

My caveman brain can't conceptualize that many moves all at once.

Also, Howard is not an expiring deal, he's got a $7m option for 08-09 that he'd be stupid to not take.

How about Sheed for AK47?

We'd need to make another move to get a starting calibre center, but a AK47/Tay PF/SF combo would be silly long.

Sheed in Utah would also be high comedy.

How about Sheed for AK47?

We'd need to make another move to get a starting calibre center, but a AK47/Tay PF/SF combo would be silly long.

Sadly the only thing of value in AK47 is his awesome nickname. He's used up.

I agree that he had a shit year, we've talked about it here all season long, but if there was some way for us to remake him into the player that he once was, he'd be a steal.

Of course, we'd be counting on Flip to do this "remake" so, nevermind.

AK has been in the league 6-7 years I think and he's already past his prime.

Frank Isola, who wrote the Sheed article that I posted in post #82 in this thread, is supposed to be on the SAS show in a little bit to talk about Sheed and the Knicks.

http://stations.espn.go.com/stations/1050espnradio/story?id=listenlive

I've been listening, and it sounds like SAS isn't there today, he's got some guest hosts in.

edit: Isola is coming up after the commercial break if anyone else wants to listen

recap:

1. Isola thinks that Sheed's actions in game 6 might mean that he wants to be traded.

2. He says that Sheed's got a good rep around the league amongst players, but only as long as things are going well.

3. Isiah has always liked Sheed and often speaks fondly of him.

4. Isola thinks Zeke would be willing to trade anybody but Eddy Curry for Sheed. Jamal Crawford might be the only other player he'd reists on.

5. Then they talked about the Sopranos.

I don't know how I'd feel about Randolph starting at C. He's a good PF, but I remember mentioning him as a C in another thread and being told he's only 6' 9" and he's more suited to play PF. I'd feel ok with the Sheed for AK47 trade if it included another good player coming our way and something else going their way. I know this would NEVER happen, but I'd love Sheed, Nazr and Hunter (if he's retiring) or Flip (if he exercises his option) for AK47 and Memo. It works with just Sheed and Nazr for Memo and AK but I doubt they'd ever make that deal, not that my idea is much more likely.

You need to add Hawes and Howard to your depth chart.

My caveman brain can't conceptualize that many moves all at once.

Also, Howard is not an expiring deal, he's got a $7m option for 08-09 that he'd be stupid to not take.

Thanks, brain fart on Hawes.

Howard is not on my depth chart because he rides the IR. I'd rather give Amir the PT. And if he takes the option, so be it. I'll figure the money out and edit this post.

I'd do Sheed and Nazr for David Lee, Jamal Crawford and Malik Rose.

Billups 13 mil
Randolph 13 mil
Rip 10 mil
Howard 6.8 mil
Dyess 6.3 mil
Battier 5.8 mil
Hill 2.0 mil
Flip 1.9 mil
Delfino 1.9 mil
Hawes 1.4 mil?
Max 1.0 mil
Amir 1.0 mil
Dupree 0.8 mil
Pruitt 0.6 mil?

That's 65 mil in salaries next year, still barely under the tax level. We could easily keep that core together a while (assuming it works), because Dyess and Howard would come off the books after 1 and 2 years respectively.

Only 2 problems I see with that lineup Chris.
1. We would be relying too much on Antonio McDyess, im not sure he can handle a starters load the whole season.
2. There is no interior defense. Webber and Zach Randolph play basically the same defense, and Sheed is a better shotblocker than McDyess.

I am assuming Max can evenly split the minutes with Dyess. Play them both 20-25 MPG.

As far as defense goes, you are correct. Sheed is a better defender than Dyess. But, we play a lot of zone anyway, and hopefully Max will improve enough to swap roles with Dyess.

I wouldn't mind doing a Sheed for Dalembert deal along with a randolph deal as well. Zach would play PF again and Daly is a good defender. If Houston would take Dyess instead you can add that deal in there too.

Boy, am I trade crazy lately.

My updated moves:

I'd like to move Sheed and Murray to Philly for Dalembert and Korver.

Then Dyess and Delfino to Houston for Battier and Howard.

Then move Prince and Nazr for Randolph.

Sign Grant Hill cheap to backup Battier.

Resign Billups

Draft Hawes (#15) and Pruitt (#27).

PG Billups/Pruitt/Blaylock
SG RIP/Korver/Acker
SF Battier/Hill/Dupree
PF Randolph/Maxiell/Amir
C Dalembert/Hawes/Amir

Thoughts?

Isn't Korver a SF? And with that lineup, we aren't really any better than we are right now. I think Sheed is better than Randolph. Prince is as good as or better than Battier. Having a true center like Sammy would be nice, but I like McDyess. Granted, if we want to get time for Max and Amir, Dyess may be in teh way a bit. That looks more like a "change for the sake of change" situation. Also, Dalembert has a problem with trying to block everything thrown at the basket and often gets in foul trouble (Nazr anyone?) and he doesn't have much of an offensive game. Maybe if he keeps developing and maturing that would be good, but I'm a bit skeptical of him. I love the atheticism but I'm just worried he'd drive us insane.

Isn't Korver a SF? And with that lineup, we aren't really any better than we are right now. I think Sheed is better than Randolph. Prince is as good as or better than Battier. Having a true center like Sammy would be nice, but I like McDyess. Granted, if we want to get time for Max and Amir, Dyess may be in teh way a bit. That looks more like a "change for the sake of change" situation. Also, Dalembert has a problem with trying to block everything thrown at the basket and often gets in foul trouble (Nazr anyone?) and he doesn't have much of an offensive game. Maybe if he keeps developing and maturing that would be good, but I'm a bit skeptical of him. I love the atheticism but I'm just worried he'd drive us insane.

Battier is a better man defender, while Prince is a better shot blocker. Prince can't seem to guard physical SF's at all. Battier can. SF's are getting bigger and stronger every year. There aren't 6'5" SF's coming out. It's 6'8" 200+ lb SFs now. RIP can guard the quick wing players anyway. Battier is also a better rebounder.

Well, Kover was starting next to AI2, who is a SF. Can Korver defend SGs? Can he defend anyone? no. But he can play 15 MPG on backup SG's when we use lots of zones anyway. All he does is offer a change of pace guy that can knock down threes (like Gibson did for the Cavs).

I like Dyess too, but Dalembert is a true center, and a better rebounder. Dyess and Sheed are too alike. They can post, but operate mostly from the perimeter. They can rebound, but don't do it agressively. both are aging. Randolph is a better post player than Sheed (although Sheed could be better than almost all big men if he wanted to), but doesn't have the range. He is younger and although a head case as well, doesn't complain (which trickled to the rest of our team).

These moves basically just make our front court MUCH younger, and offer a change of chemistry, which we drastically need.

Instead of Dyess, Prince and Sheed whining, you have Battier, Dalembert and Zach. Hopefully we stop worrying about the officials and nut up.

first off we will not lose CB, one of the positives of the bad playoff run if there are any is that he will sign for much less money then he would have gotten otherwise....

2nd Sheed...is gone, the guy is probably my favorite piston but unless your gauransheed some chips then why keep him and his antics? plus we are desperate to get younger and faster in the frontline ...id love to see shawn marion here, but no way no how under any cricimstances NO ZACK RANDOLPH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

'd like to move Sheed and Murray to Philly for Dalembert and Korver.

WTF ! DUDE ! I have no problem with sammy Dalembert but Korver ? he can shoot yea but I can play better D! he isn't a troublemaker sure but do you really want the on court product to suffer that much ? and give murray a chance next year....admittedly he was not comfortable at all this year and never really fit with our stall ball style but if we run more next year which we should then he should be as successful as he was with the cavs before he came here

I agree a bit with B3 on the Murray thing. I'm not a big fan of how he did this year. He was shit. But if we play a bit more uptempo and he is able to get comfortable and play the way he can play, he could really be an asset for us. Its a low risk move. He's got a small contract. If he isn't working out we trade him (we can get something for him easily, he's in the last year of his contract and has proven himself in the past). Worth a shot unless we need to package him in a trade for something better.

Dyess and Sheed are too alike.
They can rebound, but don't do it agressively.
McDyess is still a fine rebounder for the minutes he plays. Rasheed has always been mediocre in that department.

Chris, the only problem with that scenario (other than reality) is that Hawes will be long gone by 15. I don't think he will slip past Chicago, who have plenty of athletes, but need a low post presence who can pass.

I think we need to look at a way to solve our problems with maybe one or two moves at most.

My suggestion:
Sheed and our #27 for Bynum, K.Brown, and their #19.

They would have to look at this as a stiff upgrade at contention with Kobe, Farmar/Smush, Sheed, AND Odom.

We would make our team younger, and improve our picks greatly. Now we could either get two good players at 15 and 19 or now actually move ahead of Chicago to get Hawes using some combo of picks with Delfino.

I also like the Hill move if we could pull it off and moving Nazr and Flip for a 2040 second rounder sounds good.

Starting 5: Bynum, Dice, Tay, Rip, C-Bill
Bench: Hill, Brown, Maxiell,Amir, Delfino, rook PG and rook FC, Nazr (unfortunately), Flip

What Billy D and I like about this deal better than yours is the $18 mill of tradeable assets/cap relief we will get after the next season. Thats about a payroll of 51-53 mill and more space than the MLE to get someone next season. A top tier player if we can fleece someone for Nazr.

I agree a bit with B3 on the Murray thing. I'm not a big fan of how he did this year. He was shit. But if we play a bit more uptempo and he is able to get comfortable and play the way he can play, he could really be an asset for us. Its a low risk move. He's got a small contract. If he isn't working out we trade him (we can get something for him easily, he's in the last year of his contract and has proven himself in the past). Worth a shot unless we need to package him in a trade for something better.


yeah obviously if we had to package him up to get the superstar we seek fine im in favor, fellas changing something just to change it is not a great idea we have to be sure we do the right thing and I think we can be back on top next year, let me remind everyone here of something the pistons beat the bulls in 6 games, a bulls team that has evey bit the young talent that the cavs have if not more so lets not be all doomsday here ...is a mini blow up in order yes, do we have to change every single player hell no ....below ive listed the guys I expect back along with a possible starting lineup


BACK

RIP
TAY
CB
ANTONIO
MURRAY
J MAX
AMIR

STARTERS POSSIBLY

CB
RIP
TAY
MARION OR GOD FORBID RANDOLPH
HOW BIG IS J MAX? does anyone think we could give him a shot at starting center??

Chris, the only problem with that scenario (other than reality) is that Hawes will be long gone by 15. I don't think he will slip past Chicago, who have plenty of athletes, but need a low post presence who can pass.

I think we need to look at a way to solve our problems with maybe one or two moves at most.

My suggestion:
Sheed and our #27 for Bynum, K.Brown, and their #19.

They would have to look at this as a stiff upgrade at contention with Kobe, Farmar/Smush, Sheed, AND Odom.

We would make our team younger, and improve our picks greatly. Now we could either get two good players at 15 and 19 or now actually move ahead of Chicago to get Hawes using some combo of picks with Delfino.

I also like the Hill move if we could pull it off and moving Nazr and Flip for a 2040 second rounder sounds good.

Starting 5: Bynum, Dice, Tay, Rip, C-Bill
Bench: Hill, Brown, Maxiell,Amir, Delfino, rook PG and rook FC, Nazr (unfortunately), Flip

What Billy D and I like about this deal better than yours is the $18 mill of tradeable assets/cap relief we will get after the next season. Thats about a payroll of 51-53 mill and more space than the MLE to get someone next season. A top tier player if we can fleece someone for Nazr.


only problem is Bynum and brown both stink do you want us to be lakers east?

yeah obviously if we had to package him up to get the superstar we seek fine im in favor, fellas changing something just to change it is not a great idea we have to be sure we do the right thing and I think we can be back on top next year, let me remind everyone here of something the pistons beat the bulls in 6 games, a bulls team that has evey bit the young talent that the cavs have if not more so lets not be all doomsday here ...is a mini blow up in order yes, do we have to change every single player hell no ....below ive listed the guys I expect back along with a possible starting lineup


BACK

RIP
TAY
CB
ANTONIO
MURRAY
J MAX
AMIR

STARTERS POSSIBLY

CB
RIP
TAY
MARION OR GOD FORBID RANDOLPH
HOW BIG IS J MAX? does anyone think we could give him a shot at starting center??
Max is 6'7"


Also, I don't want anything to do with Kwame Brown. He hasn't figured it out anywhere else and let's be honest, Flip is not the best teacher. Maybe that would be a project I'd be willing to take on if LB was still coaching here. MAYBE.

Brown is just cap fodder, but he has at least some value as a tradeable asset before the deadline. Bynum actually isn't that bad, and could be a very good backup in the future. The point is acquiring players who are younger, getting a pick, and a huge expiring deal with Dice's and Flip's next season. Bynum isn't even that bad actually, and his contract is way cheap for a couple more years.

I think I might have an orgasm if The starting 5 was Billups Hamilton Battier Randolph Dalembert with McDyess, Maxiell, Delfino, and 2 1st rounders off the bench. That starting 5 contains shotblocking, inside scoring, perimeter defense, and the infamous backcourt.

As long as we kept Randolph in line, I would be optimistic about that lineup as well. Guess I just don't want to part with Prince.

I think I might have an orgasm if The starting 5 was Billups Hamilton Battier Randolph Dalembert with McDyess, Maxiell, Delfino, and 2 1st rounders off the bench. That starting 5 contains shotblocking, inside scoring, perimeter defense, and the infamous backcourt.


i'd take that lineup and be very happy I do have questions about zack but hey if that was offered id do it in a heartbeat cause I like shane and sammy so much but i don't think their clubs would do it I wouldn't if I was houston or philly

I guess as long as we are on that topic, I have no reason to think that Portland wouldn't just do Randolph for Tay and Nazr.

Hopefully we could get Hill to play for us, and Delfino as the backup.
Sheed at C, Randolph at PF, Hill, Rip, and Chauncey is extremely potent offensively. Not to mention we keep our picks and still have Dice and Max.

Portland will be happy to take on Prince since they need a good SF, and he unlike their other investments, Tay is actually worth the cash.

Besides, better to play potent offensively rather than potently offensive (current roster).

As long as we kept Randolph in line, I would be optimistic about that lineup as well. Guess I just don't want to part with Prince.


yeah id hate to as well shane is no better then tay in fact its the other way around

Nice to see you on here again BBF.

I had Chicago pegged for Hibbert before he withdrew. Now I think Noah slips to them. He'd be perfect there with their athletism. If he goes before Chicago, then I do see them reaching for Hawes.


As far as Portland goes, the reason I think they'd move Zach for Tay and Nazr is because of Oden. They are tired of the Jailblazers crap. They want a new era. They already have Aldridge, so they have their big men of the future. Zach is expendable. They also have some young guards. What they don't have is a versitle wing to replace the headache Miles. They could possibly get a better deal, but I think our's would be a good one. I doubt they want to take on more picks (they are already so young). Prince brings playoff experience too.

Like I said, they could get a better offer though.

I don't trade Tayshaun.

I don't trade Tayshaun either. Any reasonable person can see that guarding Deng and Lebron put him out of commission. I rest him.

Not to mention that Prince played over 36 mpg for all 82 regular season games. That was more that any other Piston by far.

Note that Tayshaun had the highest +/- of our starters in 6 of the 12 games against the Bulls and Cavs.

Chauncey or Rasheed (or both?) have to go. Their attitudes (different, but equally harmful) are big problems that permeate the team. Billups' arrogance and the whole dissmissive turn-it-on-off attitude has ruined the team.

You know, i dont even mind if next year's team goes down in the semis AS LONG AS THEY'RE NOT LAZY FATCATS ABOUT IT.

Chauncey or Rasheed (or both?) have to go. Their attitudes (different, but equally harmful) are big problems that permeate the team. Billups' arrogance and the whole dissmissive turn-it-on-off attitude has ruined the team.

You know, i dont even mind if next year's team goes down in the semis AS LONG AS THEY'RE NOT LAZY FATCATS ABOUT IT.

what would you have CB do? cry when he plays a shitty series or hang himself from the palace rafters? he knows it was his fault. he never said it wasn't...but look a pro will never come out and say that because he has to project confidence in himself and the team as even as things fall apart if he came out and said look we suck, the team sucks right now and the cavs seriously have our number, I don't think we have the magic anymore....who the hell do you think would have shown up for game 6?? we would have lost worse then we did

as for sheed trade him because he's older and we need youth but don't lay all this shit on him he played pretty good in that series actually and anyway sheed is sheed you can't hate what you loved about him in 04 just because we lost, we wouldnt have any championship at all if not for him.....you gotta take bad sheed with good sheed

as for the turn it on turn it off thing. well yeah ideally they wouldn't think that way but its human nature when you have been able to do that so many times...now that they have failed I seriously doubt you'll see that atitude next year

CB was playing hard out there, but I feel for him. What do you do when your teammates are standing around and getting out worked by the Cavs? Sheed and Prince just park their asses at the 3 point line. Webber has to be carted down the court. How can you find open people? yes, the TO's are his fault, but at the same time our whole offense was stagnent. Nobody was moving. That's either on his teammates, or Flip IMO. I'd move him if the deal is good, but otherwise I am happy to have him back. I think he's part of the solution, not part of the problem. He's a good lockeroom guy and one of the best PG's in the league. He just had a bad series. His game 5 winner rimmed out. If he makes that, we probably win the series and his early struggles are forgotten. So he was inches from a totally different ending to this series.

I'm typing outta my ass probably right now but why not do the 'Sheed to Houston deal and throw Bonzi Wells in on it? He's been rumored to come here the past few years.

CB was playing hard out there, but I feel for him. What do you do when your teammates are standing around and getting out worked by the Cavs? Sheed and Prince just park their asses at the 3 point line. Webber has to be carted down the court. How can you find open people? yes, the TO's are his fault, but at the same time our whole offense was stagnent. Nobody was moving. That's either on his teammates, or Flip IMO. I'd move him if the deal is good, but otherwise I am happy to have him back. I think he's part of the solution, not part of the problem. He's a good lockeroom guy and one of the best PG's in the league. He just had a bad series. His game 5 winner rimmed out. If he makes that, we probably win the series and his early struggles are forgotten. So he was inches from a totally different ending to this series.


I totally agree dude, finally someone speaks some sense, CB played his ass off and you could just see it was killing him to not be able to find his game...when we win he's the hero when we lose he's the goat and everybody wants him traded and magically eveyone in the league this side of fennis dembo is better then him, he accepts this because its part of being a starter in the NBA

If he makes that shot I still don't think we win the series. We were lucky to start 2-0 after how we played the first two games and we got outworked and outplayed pretty bad the last 4. Even if he makes that shot, we probably lose in 7. Sorry, I hate that I feel that way.

I don't know. If he makes that shot, Lebron doesn't score 48. He scores 30 (still good numbers) and his confidence doesn't go thru the roof. Billups is mr big shot again and his confidence is back. We are still undefeated in the series at home and they have a lot of pressure on them. Could they win? Yes. We really didn't outplay them in any game. But that could have been a back breaker as well.

Would the Knicks even want Rasheed?

Posted by Justin Rogers (http://blog.mlive.com/fullcourtpress/about.html) June 05, 2007 12:14PM


One of the many trade possibilities being floated by the national media is Rasheed Wallace to the Knicks, but according to a small blurb in the NY Daily News, the Knicks may not have interest in the emotion power forward.

June 5, Daily News: (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/2007/06/05/2007-06-05_knicks_could_feel_need_for_rasheed.html) Thomas has his sights set on Jermaine O'Neal, Kevin Garnett and Pau Gasol, but Wallace is a more realistic option. It is unclear if Dumars is prepared to trade Wallace or if he has interest in any of the Knicks' players. Another factor could be the influence of Garden chairman James Dolan, who once swore off bringing in players he felt would embarrass the franchise. Rasheed can't be anymore embarassing than half the guys on the current Knick roster, so it's doubtful that Dolan would hold up a deal that could thrust the Knicks back into a playoff team.

imo this team doesn't get out of the semi-finals next year without changes. They only play good for quarters at a time. Not even halves. They play like garbage, and then try to turn it on for an 8 minute stretch, and then play like garbage again. this is past the point of being fixed, as its part their being now. Not to mention we have a moron for a coach.

I think it's a very "Indiana Pacers" like hope of getting to the Finals next year, where you just ignore the problems and keep insisting that your talented roster can do it next year, like the whole artest/oneal/tinsley Pacers. no, no, NEXT year we'll finally make it happen! Next year we will! It wasn't this year because of <insert excuses>. We may have gotten to game 6 of the ECF again but it was a clear downward trend from even last year, losing to the team we barely beat last year. They got better, we got worse.

People who want no change = people who want a semi-final team, or at best, an ECF punching bag for Wade and Lebron.

imo this team doesn't get out of the semi-finals next year without changes. They only play good for quarters at a time. Not even halves. They play like garbage, and then try to turn it on for an 8 minute stretch, and then play like garbage again. this is past the point of being fixed, as its part their being now. Not to mention we have a moron for a coach.

I think it's a very "Indiana Pacers" like hope of getting to the Finals next year, where you just ignore the problems and keep insisting that your talented roster can do it next year, like the whole artest/oneal/tinsley Pacers. no, no, NEXT year we'll finally make it happen! Next year we will! It wasn't this year because of <insert excuses>. We may have gotten to game 6 of the ECF again but it was a clear downward trend from even last year, losing to the team we barely beat last year. They got better, we got worse.

People who want no change = people who want a semi-final team, or at best, an ECF punching bag for Wade and Lebron.

there isnt anyone who doesn't recognize the need for changes, big ones, just as long as they are good changes with a decent upside, guys like korver, bynum brown and their like would not help the team be anymore then a semis team either and anybody that thinks they would is dreaming

I think we'll chage 2 of or 5 starters with a possibillity of rip being dealt as well if we could get equal or greater value for him and we'll reload the bench with younger talent isnt that enough change?

also who do you think is a better team bulls or cavs? for my money its the bulls don't buy into the national media sayin its brons time bullshit his bench played well for once, congrats now they will go get their heads handed to them by the spurs, to think this is anything other bthen a one year fluke for bron is nuts....that team is not that good

The Bulls are way better than Cleveland. If The Pistons meet the Bulls in the playoffs next season it's going to be a sweep by Chicago, end of story. The revenge factor has bit on the Pistons on the ass as of late.

I say the Bulls as well, but it depends on Paxon. He could easily make a move to make them contenders now. He can also use their pick to get a big man to play next to Ben.

the bulls for sure are better club and yea they do have an oppourtunity this offseason to take the next step but there is just as much chance that paxson will mess it up and the bulls take a step back while the pistons improve and take a step forward my point is with a few moves we are right there again

Moving Tay for Randolph could be interesting, as we could bring in MoPete as a decent SF, and it would give us a target(in addition to PG) for the draft.

Sheed for Frye and Crawford(and maybe 23) could offer some things to the Pistons.

Not sure if I'd do these things, but things are certainly possible.

And Bonzi could be had very cheap after this year.

Moving Tay for Randolph could be interesting, as we could bring in MoPete as a decent SF, and it would give us a target(in addition to PG) for the draft.

Sheed for Frye and Crawford(and maybe 23) could offer some things to the Pistons.

Not sure if I'd do these things, but things are certainly possible.

And Bonzi could be had very cheap after this year.
If we could get Bonzi for cheap, I'd rather bring him in to start at SF than MoPete

I'm typing outta my ass probably right now but why not do the 'Sheed to Houston deal and throw Bonzi Wells in on it? He's been rumored to come here the past few years.

Sheed + Delfino for Battier + Howard + Bonzi

I would love to throw in Nazr somewhere, but he doesn't fit in salary caps... It makes Houston thinner at SF, but Bonzi hardly played anyway... Gives them a much needed PF

Then, we trade Tay (I know, it sucks...) for Randolph

Our defence at PF sucks now, but at least we can score... Bonzi and Battier can defence some PFs these days anyway...

If it sucks, then we shouldn't do it. I think that Joe D's philosophy with trades thus far has been to only trade players that he didn't want anymore. I think he definitely wants Prince.

Moving Tay for Randolph could be interesting, as we could bring in MoPete as a decent SF, and it would give us a target(in addition to PG) for the draft.

Sheed for Frye and Crawford(and maybe 23) could offer some things to the Pistons.

Not sure if I'd do these things, but things are certainly possible.

And Bonzi could be had very cheap after this year.

I was thiking the same thing. I'm sure crawford is willing to be a backup behind the vetarans although he ended the season really well despite his injury. He'd def be a reliable weapon off the bench. With the MLe we get a backup for tay.

Frye/Hawes?
Dice/max
Tay/MLE
Richard/crawford/flip
billups/#27?/crawford/flip

Delfino would prolly have to be traded though.

I was thiking the same thing. I'm sure crawford is willing to be a backup behind the vetarans although he ended the season really well despite his injury. He'd def be a reliable weapon off the bench. With the MLe we get a backup for tay.

Frye/Hawes?
Dice/max
Tay/MLE
Richard/crawford/flip
billups/#27?/crawford/flip

Delfino would prolly have to be traded though.
What if we threw Delfino in on the deal?

We give them Sheed and Delfino
They give us Crawford, Frye, Mardy Collins (needed to make the salaries work) and the #23

If they wanted to keep Collins we could agree to cut him as soon as the trade is through (kind of like Elden Campbell and Hunter in trades we made in the past). Do you have to go through waivers when you're cut in the offseason?

Also, if they resign one of their own free agents can they include them in the trade? If so, they could resign Cato or Randolph Morris and use them instead of Collins. I don't know how high they are on Collins, he's a young guard and I haven't really heard anything about him.

If I'm the Pistons I take any of these deals. We get a young center, a backup guard that can be our scorer off the bench that we've drastically needed, and a pick that we can package with #27 or #15 to move up in the draft. Maybe we could package 2 of the 3 picks to move up and get a solid backup swingman since we just got a young center and a solid backup point guard, then use the 3rd pick to get a young PG or C to develop.

Move up to get:
Corey Brewer (compared to Tayshaun Prince)
Julian Wright (can play everything but C)
Jeff Green (6'10", scores in the post which we drastically need)
Al Thornton (would be a great scorer off the bench while he develops the rest of his game)
And of course Conley if he drops that far

Or maybe we trade up into the teens with the 23 and 27 and use the 15 on someone like Thaddeus Young (needs some development but I'd love to see us take him) or Nick Young (needs motivation, but with Sheed gone maybe we get that hard-work attitude back and it rubs off on him) as our backup SF and use whatever we get with the 23-27 trade to get a C or PG like Crittendon or Pruitt (who we could probably pick up in the 20's if we traded with our 15)


Wow, I think that was my longest post ever......

Move up to get:
Corey Brewer (compared to Tayshaun Prince)
Julian Wright (can play everything but C)
Jeff Green (6'10", scores in the post which we drastically need)
Al Thornton (would be a great scorer off the bench while he develops the rest of his game)
And of course Conley if he drops that far


I still love you, Zek, but I don't think Jeff Green is 6'10", more like 6'8".

Brewer is my boy, but I've given up on him being a Piston.

Jeff Green is 6'9".

Yeah, green is around 6'8". I'd rather keep our picks and use them on backup center and backup PG than move up for Brewer. i like him a lot, but since we are looking at a backup wing (we already have Prince and RIP), the difference between Young and Brewer is not worth it to me. Also, Brewer is too much like Prince IMO. We need someone to compliment him and RIP. That's why I like Young because he creates to the basket, which is something we need.

I got 6'10" from ESPN. I thought it sounded a little tall but I just went with their numbers. I pretty much think Brewer is going to be gone WAY before we get a chance to pick, Green's post play would be better for us.

Brewer won't get past the Bucks and T Wolves. Both desperately need a scorer to compliment their #1 option (KG and Redd).

I'm sure the Wolves would like to get a center, but I don't think they'll take Noah there.

I got 6'10" from ESPN. I thought it sounded a little tall but I just went with their numbers. I pretty much think Brewer is going to be gone WAY before we get a chance to pick, Green's post play would be better for us.
Green is 6'7.75" in socks, so I do the 1-1.5" roundup and call it 6'9".