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POSTED 11:44 a.m. EDT, April 18, 2007


BUCS-LIONS WORKING ON A DEAL

Our friends at WDAE in Tampa have tipped us off to a rumor that we're in the process of confirming that the Lions have traded the No. 2 overall pick in the 2007 draft to the Buccaneers for the No. 4 overall pick and defensive end Simeon Rice.

A league source tells us that, while there is not a done deal, the talks are occurring regarding a flip-flop of No. 2 and No. 4. It's not presently clear whether Rice is part of the deal.

The Bucs presumably want to get in position to take receiver Calvin Johnson with the No. 2 selection, if the Raiders don't take Johnson with the No. 1.

The real intrigue on this one arises if the Raiders take Johnson. Would the Bucs then pick quarterback JaMarcus Russell or Brady Quinn? Or would they take left tackle Joe Thomas?

Recently, the Bucs conducted on-campus workouts with Johnson, Russell, and Quinn. They didn't include Thomas in the tour, and we've seen some evidence in the Tampa press of possible efforts by the team to bad-mouth Thomas, possibly in the hopes that he'll be available at No. 4.

It could be that the Lions are willing to make the deal to go down to No. 4 because they think they could still get Thomas at that spot. But if Johnson is the No. 1 pick, Thomas might be long gone by the time the Lions use the pick currently held by Tampa.

We're keeping a close eye on this one. Check back for more details.

The Lions would be stupid to swap picks just to get Rice. The difference between the 2nd and the 4th picks is about 800 points and Rice, who is 33, isn't worth that.

Wasn't it rumored a few months ago that the Bucs were just going to cut Rice anyways?

I agree. This whole article is stupid. Why would the Lions want Thomas at all? They already pay Backus a truck load. You can't pay a RT that money. Second, Thomas won't be gone by #4 anyway. Cleveland will take Peterson or Quinn, not Thomas.

I want their second rounder, not Rice.

Also, I am not sure why Tampa would do this deal.

The only way this trade makes sense is if CJ is still on the board when the Lions pick. Otherwise Oakland can just take CJ at #1 and force Tampa's hand (assuming they move up to #2).

Also, I am not sure why Tampa would do this deal.

The only way this trade makes sense is if CJ is still on the board when the Lions pick. Otherwise Oakland can just take CJ at #1 and force Tampa's hand (assuming they move up to #2).
thus the real rumor is that they are actually trading with oakland and their gm Bruce Allen has said that he is talking to his old boss(al davis) about the possibility of a trade. i think they'd have to give up alot of picks though.

Of course Oakland's problem is that they still may want russell who wouldnt last past cleveland imo. So could both rumors be true? Could a 3 way deal be at hand? Something that gets the Raiders Jamarcus Russell and picks, the lions picks and simieon rice, and tampa CJ?

Not sure about a 3 way deal but I can see multiple trades happening.

Tampa trades #4 and Rice to Detroit for #2. Then they turn around and trade #2, #35 and maybe a 4th or 5th rounder for the #1 pick. This would allow the Bucs to pick CJ at 1 and the Raiders still get their man in Russell and the Lions....well, the Lions would just get screwed. But I guess that's the norm for them anyway.

3 way or not, we get the short end of that deal if we don't get additional picks. As H1man said, the value difference is the 33rd pick. Rice isn't worth that for sure. If Bly and Hall are worth 5th rounders, how can Rice be worth a top 2nd rounder?

Not sure about a 3 way deal but I can see multiple trades happening.

Tampa trades #4 and Rice to Detroit for #2. Then they turn around and trade #2, #35 and maybe a 4th or 5th rounder for the #1 pick. This would allow the Bucs to pick CJ at 1 and the Raiders still get their man in Russell and the Lions....well, the Lions would just get screwed. But I guess that's the norm for them anyway.

I still don't see Rice here. We already signed his backup, who Rod thinks is better. I could see Rice as a fall back trade after the draft if we don't end up with a DE, but that is it. If tampa wants #2, we get #36. If Tampa wants #1, they'll have to give the #2 and a 3rd and 4th rounder. That's all their 1-4 round picks for CJ. I think they wait to see who Oakland signs (they always work something out before draft day), and then make the deal with us. Or they simply trade with Oakland directly and give them the picks.

"A league source tells us that, while there is not a done deal, the talks are occurring regarding a flip-flop of No. 2 and No. 4. It's not presently clear whether Rice is part of the deal."

I'm sure that there is truth in the fact that TB wants to swap picks. I think that the Rice thing is just wishful thinking on their part. I'm sure that if we swap picks that we will get more picks in return. If not, we need to simply go down to Ford Field and burn it to the ground!!!!!!!!!

the lions dont want to overpay the guy they are really after(gaines adams), so they gain in just moving down. Tampa has extra picks dont they, they very well could give the lions and raiders extra picks with future picks also.

I really don't understand everyone's hesitance to accept proven players instead of "points" which could equate to another pick.

This trade has been discussed, earlier in the year there was discussion about dropping down with the Jets and getting Jonathon Vilma, so on and so on. These trades often fall through because the player is not as valuable as the potential pick.

How can you disrespect Simeon Rice? Last season was just the third in 11 that he didn't have double digit sacks? The season before he had 14, before that 12, before that 15, before that 15.5, before that 11, and so on.

Can you honestly tell me with Millen's draft history that you believe he's capable of picking a player in the 2nd round that would have as much career production as Rice would have in 2 seasons here? Beyond that, you would have two solid DE's that could help teach a young DE chosen with one of our 5th round picks - or potentially even teach Adams or Anderson if we decide to absolutely stack the line and build for now AND the future. These are both guys that know the defensive system and coaching staff extremely well and would be motivated to work. Tell me how that's a bad thing? Or, we could just use the 37th pick or whatever to choose a guy who may likely be out of the league within 3-4 years having started a total of 7 games.

Normally, I would agree with you. But not in this case.

Rice is 33, relies heavily on speed and he is coming off a injury-plagued season. That seems like a recipe for disaster, especially given our luck with players that either stop producing or get injured as soon as they get to Detroit.

And given that this draft has a fairly deep DE class, I would much rather pick up an extra 2nd or 3rd round pick while still being able to draft an impact player in the first round (Landry or Willis would be my choices).

I think this is going to be the biggest draft day blunder in Detroit since Joe Dumars watched Dorko workout for 5 minutes lo these many years ago.

charles rogers considers himself to be a bigger bust than darko.

are we sure simeon rice would even WANT to come to detroit? i know i sure as hell wouldnt want to run out the clock here. atleast find team that you have a 1 in 1000 chance of being on a 500 team.

Yes, Simeon Rice officially talked about wanting to come to Detroit LAST offseason. He's a big Marinelli fan and wanted to follow him here. I'm assuming that with Marinelli here AND Barry, that he would still want to come here. I just really like the idea of having two guys that know the system at either end position. Rice is a proven Pro-Bowler when healthy, and his health has been pretty much solid until last season. Some say White could be better. Fine! I have a question. Would you avoid bringing in a Pro-Bowl WR just because Roy Williams might be better? Why not have both?
I say get Rice here. If he wants to follow Marinelli that bad get him to restructure his deal and make it a 3 year deal. If it's a lower cap number, what do you really lose if he never gets fully healthy again? Make him pass a physical to make you feel better.

If they are talking about Rice, then the ONLY acceptable deal would be Tampa's first, second, AND rice for our #2 and two of our 5ths.

Considering Rice is going to be cut anyway (IMO), no way. I'd rather have my boy Bazuin in the 5th round than Rice for a second rounder (which is essentially the deal we are talking about).

BUCS-LIONS DEAL DEAD, FOR NOW

A source with knowledge of the situation tells us that the trade talks between the Lions and Buccaneers for a flip-flop of the No. 2 overall pick and the No. 4 overall pick are dead. For now.

But the source says that the Lions also are talking to the Redskins and Falcons about a possible trade of first-round, top-ten picks. And the Cardinals (we're told) contacted the Lions for the first time on Wednesday to discuss the spot.

The Redskins hold the No. 6 pick, the Falcons hold the No. 8 pick, and the Cardinals hold the No. 5 pick.

The source also says that the Lions are confused by the Redskins' interest in moving up, since Washington doesn't have many other 2007 picks to offer. In addition to the sixth overall selection, the 'Skins have a fifth-round pick, two sixth-round picks, and a seventh-round selection.

We're also told that the Lions prefer to make the trade before the draft. We recently heard that if no trade is accomplished before noon on April 28 and if receiver Calvin Johnson is available at No. 2, the Lions would select him and then trade his rights to the highest bidder. Apparently, the Lions have figured out that actually drafting Johnson and then sending him to someone else would open the organization up to plenty of criticism if Johnson becomes a superstar (especially in light of the team's past misadventures with top-ten receivers). It would be far better to get out of the No. 2 spot before the picks start to fly.

Washington confuses me too. Who do they want there? Calvin? I guess Moss/Llyod is not that great of a tandom. I doubt they want another QB with Campbell being a resent first rounder. Unless we are getting a good DB from them I am not interested. And why would Arizona move up? They don't need a Qb or WR.

I've seen some mocks where Arizona moves up to 2 to take Joe Thomas.

But why? Who is going to take him before that? Not Oakland, not us (at least I don't think so), not Cleveland (they want a QB or Peterson), not Tampa (they want Johnson, a QB or a DL). That's a waste of time for Arizona IMO. unless they think someone else is moving up ahead of them to take him.

Any of those teams 2-4 could take Joe T.

They could, I just think they have more needs I guess.

Why not us? I still believe after everything that he just might be the best pick for us. Cleveland made it known that their line needs help by signing Steinbach to a big deal, a year after signing Bentley to a big deal. I'm sure they would be willing to sure up the line some more with Thomas. Frye may still be too young for them to go QB, I'm not sure they go with Peterson having just brought in Lewis (though injury insurance may be smart), it's probably too early for most of the defensive guys they would go for, unless they reach a tad on Landry or Okoye. Most mocks I've seen have them taking either Peterson or Quinn, and I'm not sure either is a better pick than Thomas, though my guess would in fact be Peterson.

As of right now, if I were drafting for the Lions, I'd either trade down to get a couple more day one picks or draft Joe Thomas.

If the Lions draft Joe Thomas then Matt Millen deserves to be fired immediatly (not that he shouldn't have been before). I have no problem with Thomas the player. I do have a problem with drafting a franchise LT for the Lions...

Backus is our franchise tackle...like it or not, he's paid that way. If you draft another, you have a RT making LT money and can't afford both. Backus gets cut in a year if we draft Thomas. That just adds another wasted first rounder (Backus, Rogers, Williams, Joey) to the list. Only Roy/Kevin would still be here. They simply cannot afford to pay the RT that kind of money, regardless of who it is. That's why you spend your 2nd rounder on Staley or Blaylock and you can afford to have good bookends for years.

We can't take Thomas for the same reason Millen wants to trade down to get Adams (besides the extra pick)...too much money at one position.

heres why i disagree with you chris. your approaching the situation like this is a salvable team. imo, its not. the whole city would do backflips if we went 7-9 next year. but then martz leaves, and we're right back in the gutter again.

ive said this a million times, i have no faith millen can find the right pieces. drafting thomas at #2 is a good, safe pick. a no brainer. when you start asking millen to put thought into this, thats where we run into problems. if we get out of this draft without waisting our first pick, its an enourmous success. you get cute with it, the chances of another bust skyrocket. im entrenched at this point, i can stand years more of losing, i just need the slightest hint that when this regime is fired, there will be atleast one guy that the next gm will say, 'hey, he's a keeper'.

I think teams willing to make a big investment in their offensive lines are teams heading in the right direction. Offensive lines are often overlooked by the teams that are crappy. We've overlooked the line for a long, long time. Sure - there have been some efforts like Aaron Gibson, Woody, DeMulling (who seemed to be good in Indy), McDougle, etc. But they can't let the fact that they made a huge mistake in paying Backus that much keep they from solidifying the other side of the line. It's no wonder our running game in non-existant and Kitna spends as much time on his back as either David Carr or Jenna Jameson.

By the way, I say take Joe Thomas and give him a chance to beat out Backus at the LT. If he does, then we have possibly the highest paid LT in history, but if it makes hte line better than it's a financial sacrifice worth making.

I think that the o-line is often overlooked but I just can't see using a top 5 pick on one when there are so many high impact players available. Factor in the salary and it makes it even tougher. I wouldn't mind if we trade the pick to #7 or so and take him then (if avail) and pick up a few extra picks in the process. If he's gone then that means that there is a stud availanle at #7 that would be a steal. I think that the only way we could do badly with our pick is if we took Thomas at #2. It's just too high.

I'd much prefer to trade down to 8-10 and get another day one pick or two and take the best available OL with the first pick.

The top 2-3 spots in the draft are for skill players (Orlando Pace aside) and teams are usually willing to give up a king's ransom to get in those spots.

Is Millen man enough to take the best offer? Is he good enough to get teams to bid against each other?

Prolly not.

That said, if they stay at #2 and the choice is Brady Quinn, Gaines Adams or Joe Thomas, give me Thomas.

Actually, if they stay at #2 it better be between Russell and Johnson. I used to be a Quinn fan, but he looks too much like Joey for my liking. I don't think he would ever get a good shot here. Russell has it all. He's the guy to groom behind Kitna if it's not Orlovsky (and it's not Orlovsky). Otherwise Johnson, well, you just have to wonder if he's done with pot. Everything else says he has the character, work ethic, and freakish physical ability to be a can't miss.
Russell, well, I think of Culpepper or Roethlesberger, maybe McNair. So the biggest problem for those three has been staying healthy enough to stay on the field (wear your helmet moron).

he ran a 4.8. im no expert or nothing, but a qb with a cannon arm, size of a linebacker, and a 4.8 40 sounds pretty good. the only concern would be is if he has questionable work ethic and is put in a questionable work environment............ and yet i'd still take him. why not.

i dont really want calvin johnson. the thought of taking another wide reciever just depresses me. i know johnson is on a whole nother lvl than rogers, and i dont really by into the drug concerns, but if i got drafter by the lions i'd probably hit the drugs pretty hard myself, so it'd be better to avoid this situation if possible.

and jethro really nailed what i was trying to say about thomas. its like fixing a car. lets say your driving a piece of shit. its got a ton of things wrong, and its over heating. if you try to fix the overheating, but what you did doesnt work, you still need to fix the overheating. you dont say, 'well, i've put enough money into that problem, lets try to fix something else'. if you do that, whatever else you do to fix your car is just going to be fucked anyway cuz your cooking your engine everytime you drive. and to take the analogy a bit further, drafting johnson would be like fixing your piece of shit car by giving it a brand new coat of paint, and we already gave it a new paint job 3 years in a row. god is millen stupid.

The "fix the car" analogy is the very reason that I feel that it would be a huge mistake NOT to trade away our pick. Realistically any of these guys could be taken at #2:

J. Russell
B. Quinn
C. Johnson
J. Thomas
A. Petersen
G. Adams

So we need to trade away our pick to #4 or #5 or even later (depending on what they offer) and get MORE picks. The only way that I see the Lions really improving is a somewhat massive overhaul. Having 5+ draft picks on the first day is a great start. I think it's a no brainer but then again our GM has no brain so it's a toss up!!!!!!!!!!

I don't like trading below 6, the talent really falls off IMO.

If you know the Redskins won't take him at 6, and the Vikings have a solid D line, why not trade down to 8 and still get Adams?

I don't like trading below 6, the talent really falls off IMO.

Aagin, it would depend on what we get. Hypothetically if we could trade #2 for #4 and say a 2nd and 3rd and then turn around and trade #4 for say #8 and a 2nd and 3rd (with us throwing in a later rd pick or two), it would be hard to turn down. A high first, 3 2nds and 3 3rds would make me a very happy camper. I doubt that would happen or that Millen is that smart but I guy can dream can't he???

That would never, ever, happen.

I think the reason people like the idea of trading with Atlanta is that while they are the furthest drop, they have 2 second round picks, 39 and 44. That would give us 3 of the top 12 picks in the 2nd round. That could probably bring in Woodley, Stanton and Blaylock. Meanwhile that #8 pick could be Patrick Willis. So we got the top MLB, the #5 DE, the #4 OL and the #3 QB, according to most ratings. That and a 3rd rounder (CB) and we have an amazing first day.

I know I'm on record as hating Sparty. But really, Jethro, the Lions drafting Drew Stanton? What the hell did he ever do to you?

He would be a good replacement for McCown - since they would use him as a WR. No, really, I put him in there because he has grit, his accuracy seems to have improved, he can handle playing on a losing team and still trying to fire guys up, and the Lions have been fairly high on him as of late. Do you want me to replace him on the list with Beck from BYU?

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6731206

New mock draft from some online thing has Johnson going to the Lions! Yay!

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6731206

I fuckin' hate seeing that little box with the X in it.

They were just saying on ESPN that the Lions and Bucs are in serious trade talks. The two deals mentioned would be:

The Lions trade #2 for #4 and BOTH of the Bucs 2nd rd. picks
*The Lions made the offer and the Bucs are considering it

The Lions pick for the Bucs at #2, the Bucs pick for the Lions at #4, then they swap picks plus the Bucs give us Brian Kelly and another pick (unknown)

I like the first deal and don't like the 2nd one because the "unknown" pick might be a 4th rd. or later.

If they make that deal I think they take Gaines Adams, and I think paying Adams #4 money is a stretch. I think he slots better at #6. However, I do like having the back-to-back picks at 34 and 35. The other Bucs pick isn't until the last in the round, 64 (meaning we would again pick almost back-to-back with 64 and 66).

I am not a big fan of Gaines Adams.

If we do end up with the #4 pick, I would much rather draft Willis or Landry.

or Thomas

My whole problem is not with taking Adams, or Landry, or Willis. It's with taking them at #4. We could get at least one of those 3 at #8. Why not take the better deal there and save some salary at the same time? Thomas could be #4 and it wouldn't be a reach. But the other guys are "next tier".

They (Landry and Willis) may be a reach at #4. But I would feel far more comfortable with taking those guys at #4 than I would with Adams.