I keep hearing this (in sports in general, too) and I wonder if anyone really knows what it means.

Can one of the people who are so critical with Flip Saunders give me examples of how he gets outcoached from time to time? I wish I were more knowledgeable with NBA X's and O's to see any flaws in his strategies, but I'm not.

Is it a matter of perceived respect from the players? I put VERY little weight in what people "think" they know about how much the players respect or don't respect Flip Saunders. I mean, all we as fans hear are politically correct sound bites and we base our opinions on "body language" within games. We probably really see like 5-10% of the actual interactions between players/coaches.

Or is it just a matter of substitutions and player minutes? If that's the case, how come he gets no credit for integrating Delfino and Maxiell into a veteran-heavy lineup?

From a strategical perspective, the only positive example I can think of is our utilization of zone defenses. Say what you will, Ben Wallace, but our defense hasn't been that bad this season. We're ranked 4th in FG% allowed and 4th in points allowed. I think we unfairly focus in on some uncontested layups, since we've been used to Ben swatting shots into the 200-level seats. We lost a 4-time DPOY and we're still a top defensive NBA team.

Now, i'm really not a Flip Saunders-advocate, but I tend to think he gets a bum rap here among Piston fans. When we win, he gets zero credit. When we lose, it's all his fault. That's the nature of sports, but I'm really wondering if someone can shed some more light on the subject of being a sub-par coach. Weren't we all bitching about player minutes or poor offensive sets when legendary Larry Brown was in town? Yes, he won a championship with us, but if Flip were to win a title here, does that suddenly make all of his moves genius?

Like I said, I have no experience with basketball from a coach's perspective, nor do I know the details of the NBA offense/defense.

Matt, I'd say your view is right on the money. Flip gets thrown under the bus far too often.

I grew to respect Flip's coaching ability when we beat Chicago at home last week. It was incredible because we were basically getting raped; then Flip subbed in Maxiell and we picked things up dramatically. Who put him in again? FLIP.

I think he does a fine job. He's a great offensive coach in an offensive league, and our defense is still really strong. I'm confident in our ability to get the stop when it counts.

That said, not a huge Flipper fan, but I will stand by him as long as he remains our coach.

I'm not sure if it's Flip or C-Bill, but there are a lot of stretches where it seems like we should be taking advantage of a clear cut matchup nightmare in our favor (like Sheed posting Murphy for example) and we don't continue to use it. It seems like every night we have a great matchup and don't use it. Billups on a small PG, RIP on a SG that can't stay with him, Prince on a slow or short SF, Sheed on anybody really. We do a great job of getting everyone involved, but some times we go thru lulls and that's when you need to beat a dead horse and go to your advantage. %90 of the time I am happy with his offense, but when you get in a tight spot you need a go to play.

Again, is that Flip or our PG? Some of both, but I doubt C-Bill ignores the plays Flip is calling.

its hard to analyze coaching because its all about who you want to give credit to. but i think alot of it is a respect is earned thing.

i personally dont like an offense that relies on jumpshooting. something flip does like. i'd settle for more turnovers if we were also getting alot of great looks. flip is the opposite. i also dislike the zone, though it has been affective at timese.

my biggest problem with flip is his lack of composure, that i think rubs off on the players.

i dont really get into the whole who should/ shouldnt be playing stuff, or rotations. i think a coach always has a better feel for this than the fans (though i would have rested starters more and developed the bench more).

as far as exploiting matchups, i think thats more of a playoff thing than a regular season thing. though it'd be nice when the tj fords of the world are lighting us up if chauncy would take him to school a few times.

First off, it's hard to tell about substitutions sometimes. You don't always know what shit might be going on behind the scenes. But, some things are just clearly wrong. MoEvans is -not- a power forward, and not the guy you put on the other team's superstar all by himself. Dale Davis and Jason Maxiell bring lots of defensive frontcourt energy and should be paired in games where that is clearly needed, like last night. I think Flip's at least somewhat willing to make substitutions, but it seems like he's throwing shit up there to see if it sticks moreso than doing anything rational. If you dig into the archives, you'll see that my biggest concern in hiring him was the wacko substitutions he did for Chauncey when they were both in Minny.

But, quite apart from that, his demeanor bugs me. Check this out:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070306/SPORTS0102/703060381/1127/


"It was like everything we did went sour," Pistons coach Flip Saunders said. "And then what happens, when you fall behind 14, 16 (points), then you have to play out of character, because you're playing catch-up. We're not a team that can play catch-up. We can do it at times, but our best thing is to grind it out, especially without 'Sheed, because he can stretch a defense and get some quick points. Without 'Sheed, we have to grind it out."
...
"Early, we took control of the game, and all of a sudden we start throwing lob dunks, like we're starting to play like them and then all of a sudden the game changed like that," Saunders said, snapping his fingers for emphasis. "The game changed to their tempo and once they got going, they made every shot that went up.

"We basically played back on our heels, very similar to how we played out there. It's a good thing we don't play these guys 82 times."
Does this sound like reasoned analysis or "golly gee I dunno what the fuck happened" kinda talk? Where's the part where he sounds like he's even close to lighting a fire under their ass? Did it ever occur to him to try and control the tempo of the game? I'm sure he can rattle off numbers with Hollinger (ooh, my starters can all get between 14 and 22 points per game), and I think he can do some decent coaching of some set plays and defensive schemes off the court. But his game-time sense doesn't seem to be there much of the time. I keep thinking about how Joe Dumars politely kicked McDyess' ass into playing well when he was slumping and there was trade talk, and thinking "why the fuck couldn't Flip do that"? I keep going back to when Ben deserved to be suspended for a game last year after the fuck he pulled in Orlando, and how Flip didn't pull that trigger. Maybe he couldn't, and if so I blame JD, but that surely hurt him with the main players.

It is his job to make sure the PG knows not to play the game at the other teams tempo. That's what TOs are for. While the zone is certainly effective at times, I think it has taken away a little of the defensive accountability and pride that the players had in their D. Most of what I hear Flip say is just lip service. About how the players were tired at the end of a road trip so they lost a winnable game, and then looked tired in the next game just after a few days of rest? It is tough to judge a coach based on what he says in the media, but it really is all we have. He just doesn't offer that much insight into his abilities at all.

I can give you loads of examples. Letting the other team dictate the pace of the game like GS did the other night. How about pulling a bench player out of the game who is playing well and has the hot hand just to put a starter back in. Bad rotations with 4 or 5 bench players on the floor at the same time. Not going to the bench fast enough to bring out an energy player when ther team hits a dry spell. Not switching away from a zone defense even though it is ineffective (like against GS). Playing the starters too many minutes so that they are tired come crunch time and the other team is fresher. The worst criticism that I would have of Flip is that he lets control of the team get away from him several times during the game. He doesn't yell at players like LB did so they get away with doing whatever they want a lot more. Is that enough??? I have more!!!

Matt, I'd say your view is right on the money. Flip gets thrown under the bus far too often.

I grew to respect Flip's coaching ability when we beat Chicago at home last week. It was incredible because we were basically getting raped; then Flip subbed in Maxiell and we picked things up dramatically. Who put him in again? FLIP.

I think he does a fine job. He's a great offensive coach in an offensive league, and our defense is still really strong. I'm confident in our ability to get the stop when it counts.

That said, not a huge Flipper fan, but I will stand by him as long as he remains our coach.


Don't use the Maxiell example as being a great decision by a coach in a big game. Maxiell doesn't even see the floor if Rasheed doesn't get hurt. He was "forced" into making that change in the second half. He lucked into that victory.

From his days in Minnesota he's never been good with rotations. He's very reactionary in that he chooses to respond to what the other team is doing rather than exploiting the potential mismatches his team can cause (ie. refusing to play 7-footers against teams that like to run and have smaller lineups like he did against the warriors on Monday and every other fast-paced team in this league) What he fails consider is that teams have to play on BOTH sides of the floor and when you present size to some of these smaller teams THEY may actually have a challenge defending YOU and limiting you from second shots.

He also has a strange love affair with Antonio Mcdyess at the end of close, competitive games. Now I like what Antonio does on the offensive end, especially recently, he’s been incredibly consistent and borderline dominant on the offensive end, but he's a below-average defender which has been on full display these past few games with Rasheed getting hurt. During the second half of last season he began playing mcdyess over Ben Wallace in the 4th quarter which not only pissed off Big Ben and was the beginning of the end for him in Detroit but it also made the playoffs a very difficult thing to endure. Flip chooses to see the offensive prowess of players rather than what they do on both sides of the ball. These games with Webber and Mcdyess recently have resulted in lay-up city for our opponents.

I also don't understand the offensive genius moniker that has been given to him. We are actually just as efficient of a team offensively as we were under Larry Brown (field goal %, etc.) and really only average more points because the pistons now take more shots...and not necessarily better shots. They also give up MANY more points and at a MUCH more efficient clip (opponents FG%, second chance points). I really have yet to see his offensive genius on display. LB and Carlisle were much more adept at “playcalling” and I liked LB’s ability to change the way his team’s game plan based on their opponent (walk it up the court against the pacers because of carlisle’s propensity to NEVER run… and run like hell against the lakers to exploit the oldness of shaq, karl malone, payton, etc.). (ps- I was in full support of LB leaving as well. It became about him and not the team. He wore out his welcome.)

Flip only plays one way and I’m not sure he’s ever in control of it. I don’t think he game plans. I think he lets Chauncey decide how the team’s going to play today.

And of course, the fact that he’s once again killing his starters with too many minutes. This is unbelievable to me considering what Joe Dumars stated to him at the conclusion of last year and the beginning of this year: “We need to play our bench more and reduce the minutes of our starters.” All he’s done so far is blatantly ignore this directive and has actually played his starters MORE minutes than last year. All he’s done is taken the 35+ minutes a game Ben Wallace used to play and distributed it to a few bench players, primarily mcdyess and delfino. And when he does play the bench it’s usually all at once. Notice how often teams realize this and have their starters matched up against our bench players….and watch that second quarter lead evaporate…..it happens ALL THE TIME.

Now we’re starting to see flip play Webber 30+ minutes a game which means bye-bye bench.. It will be just a matter a time before we see a 7 man rotation once again with Hunter playing a few minutes here and there.

I think Flip’s retarded. I’m not making this up. I think he’s missing a few chromosomes or something.

So to answer your question Matt, no, not one person here can break down a damn thing or give you anything but the same rhetoric.

I've had some of the same questions as Matt. To my novice eye it seems like the way the pistons use the zone defense is pretty effective and has probably cushioned the impact of losing Ben quite a bit. Also, the pace at which they've piled up wins since Flip took over wouldn't put most coaches on the hot seat.

Still, it's hard to believe so many piston fans would hate him without good reason, I just have trouble getting a handle on the specifics.

There's something... intangible about him, what he says, and the way he says it, that rubs people the wrong way.

He also looks like a bootleg Dave Coulier, which just bugs the shit out of me. He also needs to cut his hair different. He looks like he's one step away from being one of those illiterate cro-magnons who coach in the NHL.

I really don't have much criticism for Flip Saunders. He's not great, but he's OK. The only area I can see that he struggles is that he just does not have the respect of his team. He doesn't have much influence with them, and I certainly don't see the same kind of emotional investment that even Larry Brown had in Detroit.

The Pistons are a team that tends to be lazy, if something doesn't come along and inspire them. I don't see Flip doing a whole lot of inspiring.

generally, if a coach gets outcoached in game, your probably talking about time outs. plays executed immidiatly after a TO, what happens to the game following a to. remember in the playoffs in 05 when carlysle used all his TO's in the 3rd qrter? substitutions also are what you judge a coach by. but i really think you cant judge a coach too much from one game, its more of something you take the big picture for.

Gameplan to exploit mismatches.
understanding situations
Playbook that fits the players
Motivation.
Subsitutions.
Timeouts.
Teaching/Talent development.


These are things a coach should be able to do.

Flip sucks at Subs, Motivation, Understanding Situtations, and Gameplan.
Plays are nice, the problem is the Piston can run a few of these plays to absolute perfection and there is nothing the other team can do about it. But then they just stop running plays, start screwing around and Flip just cranes his neck and twitches. Depending on the matchups, there are games where Webber should handle the ball most of the time he is out there, or Prince should be getting the ball in the post. OR Rip should be running cutters AT the basket. Sometimes Sheed SHOULD be standing out in 3 point land other times his ass should never leave that post (motivation) There is no more excuse about being limited by Ben Wallace anymore. The Pistons should be playing halfcourt playoff style basketball the rest of the season ( I like what I am seeing lately actually) And when something works, KEEP DOING IT! When it doesn't work STOP!!!!

But something Flip better figure out, is not isolating players on the block with no option to kick it out to. It's like we get Billups or Rip or Tay in the post, and there is never anyone on the wing to kick it back to... ever. Guys are just standing around too. And Our pick and rolls are f-ing deadly since helpside defense = death. But the Pistons only run 3 of them. Sheed and Billups/ Rip and Webber / Player X(should be delfino all the time but Flip = idiot) and Dice. When Dice comes in the game, we go to that option most of the time. When the starters are in we don't do pick and roll enough, and we don't let Tay get in on the fun.

The best coaching Flip has done for the Pistons is installing an effective zone defense. But everything else this team needs are things Larry Brown did and Flip doesn't do enough of . This team plays it's best when it moves the ball around starting from post ups. There are times where Flip is more concerned with running some garbage play that doesn't work or getting X player some touches. And in the playoffs there is way too much isolation with Rip.

It's pretty simple really.

When the other coach makes an adjustment, Flip does not.

If you get a run going, the opposing coach will call a timeout. If it is a late game scenario, the opposing coach will call a timeout to remiind everyone about the basics, and to decide who is getting the rock.

Flip is lousy with timeouts. He doesn't use them to adjust. He lets the players create which is fine, except when they are in trouble. Our team is a collection of talents without a system.

His maddening flip-flopping (pun NOT intended) on what ails and fires up this team is crazy too. One day we go as Chauncey goes. The next day, we go as Sheed goes. One day Delfino and Flip Murray can't play together. The next game they are.

He sets up his defense with offense, which is counter to all conventional wisdom. Defensive effort can be a constant with the right personalities. Flip thinks that if the Pistons can't score, then they won't be able to defend either. That's madness.

What about going small? The Pistons regularly sit Mohamed and Davis so they can matchup with smaller running teams. If our M.O. is to control tempo, you ain't gunna do that by matching up smalls on smalls. That's obvious crap.

I'm sure Joe has his meddling hands in some of this, but ultimately Flip is the one who is judged harshest. The onus is on him to take responsiblity for his team.

Does he get outcoached? Everytime that the opposing coach makes an adjustment. Doing nothing is not coaching.

To add to what Bubbles said, and truly what bugs me the most is not the game plan, but the IN GAME plan and the changes on the fly that need to happen. Last year's playoffs were the easiest example of a few things.

In the Cavs series, somewhere in there they decided they would make the game a crawl and then look for Bron to take over in the 4th. Instead of trying to combat that by say pushing the pace and making the comfortable, he allowed them to execute their game plan and they almost won that series in 6 games.

In the Miami series, they often tried to change up their defensive schemes during at various times and Flip was BAFFLED! We just continued running the same plays and pretty much getting owned. That pales in comparison to the defensive woes he suffered in trying to stop the different thing Miami tried to do on offense. It was like Flip was planning for "1,2,3", Pat changed to "5, 10, 15" and the closest Fip could get was "2, 4, 8". It was a damn shame and something that Larry Brown would have never allowed.

Flip is bad with matchups and taking advantage of them. I think a lot of times that we feed a favorable matchup such as Sheed on a guy with bad post D, its as much Chauncey although I could be completely wrong on that. His rotation patterns have always been questionable, but seem to be getting better. I always thought he was a great halftime coach with adjustments, there are a ton of games between this and last year where we blow a team away in the third and just have to maintain that in the fourth... or if we are behind at the half we catch up in the third.