http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/LearnToBudget/EvenWellOffCanImagineBecomingPoor.aspx
Sorry, I don't know how to post an article, can a MOD do it for me?
Otherwise, check out this article.
My idead for this thread is for us to discuss what we are doing with regard to overall finances, priorities, and our future.
We have Mike Myers asking all kinds of important questions, and the thoughts die out. Too bad. Sounds like Myers is trying to do things the right way.
Let's begin the discussion by limiting it to what a guy should/will/does when he is young, how he starts out.
I'd like to hear from the younger guys, of course. What kinds of decisions are you making now? Are you on the Eternal Quest for Pussy? Do you think the first thing you have to do as an adult is start a family?
Or are you getting an education, thinking about finances (like Mr Myers), investing, and credit (traps) options?

Well, right now I am an undecided student at a university after originally starting out as an electrical engineering major then deciding engineering wasn't right for me. I'm leaning towards majoring in psychology at this point, but still I'm not quite sure. I am in the meantime trying to conjure up other ways of getting money (legally, of course i.e. writing, producing/making music, etc). The future dominates my mind so much that many times I can ignore the present, and I sometimes wish I wouldn't worry so much about it but hopefully it will be for the better. Anyone wishing to give any insight to a possible career/major choice would be well appreciated. I love doing artistic things and the mind interests me, so that's why at this point I'm leaning towards psych. I don't know what you want in this thread, Zip, but that's where I stand now.

That's a great start eray. Right now, I suppose general thoughts and plans. Older guys are welcome too.
I just want to know how and what you guys are gearing your energy toward.
And why.
You say you think about the futre so much it removes you from the present.
Well, one thing I have learned is the thought process of "Be Here Now". The future is coming, and fast, so prepare for it, but don't you think that what you are doing RIGHT NOW is the more pressing concern?
Great decision to drop the engineering if it wasn't for you. It's a great field, (My wife is an electrical enginner), but it HAS GOT to be your thing.

Nice idea for a thread Zip.

http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/images/_wikipedia_en_d_d9_Matt_Foley,_Saturday_Night_Live .jpg

Well, let's see...

I graduated HS in '95 and didn't fare so well at Central only attending for a year and then I screwed around at OCC for a year and half after that. I have been employed at my current work for almost 10 years now and make enough money to own a house and my insurance for my wife and I is paid by my work.

However, I went back to school last year to get into web design, but I realized I don't want to just design websites, I want to basically learn more about the backend stuff too. I'm taking a SQL database class this semester and I think I'm going to do both the database program and the web programming program so I can open up my options. As of right now, if I were to lose my job for some reason, I would be screwed, there's no way I could find a job that will equal my pay and give me the same benefits without some sort of degree.

It's not like I make all that much money, I'm not able to buy a new car or anything as owning a house can be rather expensive, but I don't mind driving used cars for the time being.

Also, since the Michigan economy is so bad, after I finish with the programs I am in and it's time to look for a new job, I might look out in Pittsburgh since my parents were born there and I have a ton of family there. I've always liked it out there and would love to live there. The key to that, though, is the housing here in Michigan and if I could sell my house. Plus, there's talk that Chrysler could be sold off in parts and an upwards of 80,000 people could lose their jobs around here.

I keep my options open, though. I think I'm a pretty smart guy and have a lot of different skills that I think I could make work one way or another.

Another potential plan is that I have a friend who owns a couple different web servers and another buddy of mine who's in the graphic design program at Wayne State. I'm thinking maybe we could all get together and start a business where we can do web design and hosting.

There's options out there for all kinds of things.

Thanks Glenn!
bangpow:
I grew up in Michigan and didn't want to end up in a car factory. I was old enough to see the first wave of the Death Blow to the auto industry: The late 70's saw thousands headed to the unemplyment window. I headed out as soon as I turned 19, and never looked back (what I spent the next 20 years doing will come later).
That takes me to YOUR next steps. First, you see MANY options, and try MANY things.
But, what of your decision to get married and start a family? Do you have kids?
How has that influenced the decisions you have made, or couldn't make? It sounds like you are either approching, or have hit 30. Guys who can hit 30 without shooting themselves in the foot too much have ALOT going for them, because the vast majority of guys (and women) who have hit thirty have more baggage than your average airport lost and found department.

I'm 27, have a solid but not stellar job and get good benifits and retirement stuff. I don't pay attention to my retirement package though and don't contribute extra to it. Both need to change, I know, but it's hard to just jump into this stuff and know what the heck is going on.

Thanks Glenn!
bangpow:
I grew up in Michigan and didn't want to end up in a car factory. I was old enough to see the first wave of the Death Blow to the auto industry: The late 70's saw thousands headed to the unemplyment window. I headed out as soon as I turned 19, and never looked back (what I spent the next 20 years doing will come later).
That takes me to YOUR next steps. First, you see MANY options, and try MANY things.
But, what of your decision to get married and start a family? Do you have kids?
How has that influenced the decisions you have made, or couldn't make? It sounds like you are either approching, or have hit 30. Guys who can hit 30 without shooting themselves in the foot too much have ALOT going for them, because the vast majority of guys (and women) who have hit thirty have more baggage than your average airport lost and found department.

yeah, I'm married, but the wife and I don't plan on having kids any time soon. Plus, she didn't go to college either, but she is now. So, we kind of have an open slate for the future and she likes Pittsburgh, too.

Oh, yeah. I do have an IRA that was set up through my work which I contribute 6% of my pay to. It also had the stipulation that I could draw from it without penalty when I bought my first house. That helped...big time.

bangpow: I've considered web/graphic design and the stuff you're looking at now, and I even started this semester of school in that program. Basically, what I got from it is that you won't learn anything in school for graphic design that you can't learn on your own if you give the necessary effort. So, I dropped out of that program ASAP in favor of an undecided education for now. Unless you're going to go to a school and learn graphic design for free, it's not worth it to study graphic design unless it's one of your only options. However, in your current situation, it sounds like a viable option -- if it's something you enjoy and the jobs are there, then I say go for it. However, word is that a lot of web design jobs are going overseas and other areas for a very cheap price. That's another thing that drove me away. I still may do web design on the side, however, but I don't know if that alone will be enough to support my unfortunately expensive habits (video games and music, etc). So I'm trying to find something I know I'll enjoy as an occupation, something that's challenging (I definitely don't want to shortchange myself), and something that makes me a decent amount of money, I just don't know what yet.

bangpow: I've considered web/graphic design and the stuff you're looking at now, and I even started this semester of school in that program. Basically, what I got from it is that you won't learn anything in school for graphic design that you can't learn on your own if you give the necessary effort. So, I dropped out of that program ASAP in favor of an undecided education for now. Unless you're going to go to a school and learn graphic design for free, it's not worth it to study graphic design unless it's one of your only options. However, in your current situation, it sounds like a viable option -- if it's something you enjoy and the jobs are there, then I say go for it. However, word is that a lot of web design jobs are going overseas and other areas for a very cheap price. That's another thing that drove me away. I still may do web design on the side, however, but I don't know if that alone will be enough to support my expensive habits (video games and music). So I'm trying to find something I know I'll enjoy as an occupation, I just don't know what yet.


Well, I've realized the fact that I'm merely an average graphic desinger, but I am more interested in the programming and the overall design and function of the site. So, I would rather tell someone that I need a few graphics for things if I can't design something good and then work with the rest of the site. I'm more of a hands-on DIY guy, I tought myself how to work, modify, and install software like the one that's running this site and the different CMS programs out there like the one that runs my site and what not.

Theoretically, my situation right now isn't bad. I make enough money to pay my bills and what not and it does give me the ability to take on side jobs for extra $$$. I just have to put myself out there for that.

Oh, I see your into music too. Yeah, so am I. I've been Djing around the clubs here for the last 12 years or so and let me tell you, it's very difficult to make money.

Chris:
It IS hard to decipher all the retirement, investing, stocks, and banking stuff. It's like food: One day something is good for you, the next day the same thing will give you the bubonic plague.
But we can go into details on that stuff later, though I believe that every dollar you blow now will be ten out of your retirement down the road.
Right now, I'd like to keep it in the relam of what and how you are thinking about decisions to make, more in general and philosophical terms.
One thing I've learned is that a pattern of either good or bad, or NON decision making is something that follows you throughout life.
We have some "education" discussion going, and here's something to mull over: Only about twenty five percent of Americans over the age of twenty five have college degrees. If you get a degree, especially in this day and age with manufacturing all but dead in the USA, you are that much ahead of your competition for jobs.

Alright, well I'm 19, 20 in like 2 months, but I go to Saginaw Valley State, and right now I'm a business major and I fucking hate it. So I am going to be undecided next year, fill out some more gen eds, and move from there.

I don't have any internships or anything lined up this summer, my main focus will be on a part time job, baseball, and just enjoying one of my last good summers.

I do save money, but I have a little bad habit of occasionally spending too much on things like "getting fucked up" or buying things like xbox 360 games. I am on an eternal quest for pussy if you must know.

I'm still in the growing up process, and haven't put too much thought into my future, but its getting closer, and I'm starting to make smarter decisions that will impact my life better. I plan on being in college for at least the next 3 years, and from there, I have no idea.

In regards to family, HELL NO. I get sick and tired of a girl after 3 weeks, theres no way I'd be prepared to marry one anytime soon. I'm looking at being single a while, starting my career, bank some money, and if I find the right girl, I'll go from there. But there are no kids or marriage "expected" anytime soon.

Oh, I see your into music too. Yeah, so am I. I've been Djing around the clubs here for the last 12 years or so and let me tell you, it's very difficult to make money.

Yeah, I'm hoping for bigger things (debating starting my own recording studio, playing in a band, hopefully getting noticed). But, a recording studio takes capital that I don't have right now. As for the web programming/design thing, if you turn to that, I wish you the best in finding jobs. I don't know personally, but from what I hear the market's shrinking.

PS I only am on a quest for pussy sometimes, I have bigger things on my mind.

Lemme ax a few of you this:
If you are young, what kind of conversation can you imagine having with yourself at 40? Think of yourself as a forty year old man. Would you want to be able to say to him, "HEY! There you go, I planned for this day, took care of business, and now you're in pretty good shape", or, would you have to say, "Ummm SORRY! I thought getting married at 20 and having four kids by thirty, skipping college was the way to go!" OR this: "Geez. Sorry, but I thought chasing skirts, constantly looking for a woman, having a couple kids, getting drunk (sorry about the DUI's) and saying "NOBODY tells ME what to do!" was WAY cool!"
Now, picture yourself at 40! What would HE say to YOU? This: "WOW! Thanks, man! You knew I'd be here REAL soon, and it feels great! You a smart motherfucker, that's right!" OR "Way to go dipshit. Now I'm fucked!"

I'm hoping for the former, Zip. I do my homework, I'm on the Dean's List (not easy in the U. Dayton school of engineering), I only "go out" on the weekends, I don't smoke or do drugs and I don't really give a damn about my social image, which I think helps. I know these are just a few things, but I think I'm generally a pretty smart kid, I just need to figure out what field I want to head into, and then I think I'll be pretty well off.

Yeah, I'm hoping for bigger things (debating starting my own recording studio, playing in a band, hopefully getting noticed). But, a recording studio takes capital that I don't have right now. As for the web programming/design thing, if you turn to that, I wish you the best in finding jobs. I don't know personally, but from what I hear the market's shrinking.

PS I only am on a quest for pussy sometimes, I have bigger things on my mind.

You know, with all the computer technology out there like Ableton and Pro Tools, you really don't need to spend all that much money on a home studio. Heck, you can get the Pro Tools M-Powered version for $200 and it has a dope mastering suite that comes with it. It makes anything sound like a million bucks.

And as far as web design and what not goes, it's all about who you know, just like the music business. Since I work at a DJ shop, I should be hitting up mobile jocks that come in and offer to design them some websites. Plus I've been rapping with my cousin who lives in Pittsburgh today about this very thing. He works at a company that sells computers and services to school disctricts and he says that they have nobody to design sites for them. They farm that shit out, so they lose money on that. He showed me an example of one of the school systems site that they farmed out and I gotta say that I think I could've done as good of a job with that.

Daviticus:
Nothing ages you like marriage and kids. You do that, and things fly by at the speed of light. You are VERY smart not to consider something like that. MANY of us look at that as the FIRST thing we have to do as adults.
Our culture grooms us and brainwashes us into thinking that if you're single you are a freak. Kids magazines are out there telling young people how to "catch the right person". Oprah's every other show is "How to fall in love" or some shit.
In the past, people could "wing it". Factories, or other jobs were always there. Things weren't terribly expensive.
Now, the Good Ol' Factory is building a Chinese middle class. Mid level insurance or other white collar jobs are moving to India and elsewhere.
The lack of the American Public to make a cultural shift AWAY from the romantic idea of marriage and children, and the growing irresponsibility of our youth with regards to child bearing and sex has been disastrous (blah blah blah).
BUT, the SMART money is on saying no to the trappings of our culture. Once you give in, your choices and your freedom drops exponentially. The path is chosen FOR you, by a system that won't help you.
Stay in college for ten fucking years, if tha's what you want. Stay fucking drunk for ten years if that's what you want. Just don't drag other people and other lives into it.

Yeah, you speak the truth there, like I said in one of my posts before, if the jobs are there, go for it. And yeah, I'm aware that there's a lot of software out there for audio, but in order to get everything I feel necessary for pro sound (I've done my research) I'll probably be spending anywhere between 1 and 5 grand, but that money I don't have right now paying off school (which, by the way, is increasing its fucking tuition 8% every year). I came to this school as an engineering student, with the notion that I'd be there at the end with a job in which I could pay everything off pretty easily, but now it's not so clear. I'm confident that I have the ability to do just about anything, but it's finding what's right for me that's important.

Hell, I'll just go full out now and tell everyone what I'd like to do. I want to start a recording studion and mix and match some hits. I want to be a musician. I want to be a novelist. I want to do web design/hosting. I know I have talent in all these areas, but all of these also are too high risk to bank on success. So, I'm still here debating what I want to study in school.

eray:
Then GODDAMMIT: DO IT! PLAN for it, and don't divert from the plan. Who the hell can stop you?
As for school, stay there. Pick something, anything, to get the degree in. You'll take enough classes, study enough shit, and write enough papers to learn something about everything.

Unsolicited advice:

Finish college - It will add hundreds of thousands of dollars to your lifetime earnings.

Pay yourself first - Automatically save a portion of each paycheck, then spend what is left. Sounds simple, but most people do the reverse. Any percentage is good, just get in the habit.

Take advantage of employer money - If your workplace offers a 401(k) or other program where they match your savings, and you are not taking advantage of it, you are literally giving away money.

Understand compound interest - An investment that earns 10 percent interest will double in value about every 7 years. A 16 year-old who invests $5,000 would have $640,000 by the time they turn 65. Building wealth takes time. Start young.

I think philosphically, the most important question is this :What makes the individual happy?
Can we, as an individual, BE happy? Can we TRULY make another happy?
Sounds like many are trying to think about those questions. What sounds good to me is that many are still doing something while they do that thinking. Many of us don't. And, we fail to realize that to do nothing is still to do something. Just not something good.

Furious thud-pumping makes me happy . . .

I want to start a recording studion and mix and match some hits.

If that's the case, it ain't about the gear you use, it's about the music you create. Look at some of the hot producers out there and most of them are still using an MPC and shit. Dilla didn't have this big extravagent studio, before he died he was just using his Powerbook.

Yeah, that's true, but to an extent. For the music I play and am most interested in (rock), I need a little more than an 1/8" input on a laptop's sound card. To remedy that, I'll get an audio interface (200-300 dollars). I need better guitar tone, either need a good FX pedal (at least 300 bucks) or software like Guitar Rig 2 (500 bucks), which I've tried, and it kicks ass by the way. Then, to mic people's drums, there's another 400-500 to do it right. The point is, to get good sound from rock, the money adds up pretty quick. For R&B/Hip Hop, you don't need nearly as much as almost everything is synth. Anywho, I'll quit babbling...

You know, with all the computer technology out there like Ableton and Pro Tools, you really don't need to spend all that much money on a home studio. Heck, you can get the Pro Tools M-Powered version for $200 and it has a dope mastering suite that comes with it. It makes anything sound like a million bucks.
M-Powered is cool, but overrated to me. You can get the same results from the other major DAW's. The advantage it has that its parent company is the Industry standard format in AIFF. But for the life of me, why do these numb nuts at digidesign give it more recordable tracks? Either way if you arent working with pro tools HD, you better actually know what you're doing when it comes to mixing, otherwise it wont sound any better than cubase, samplitude, sonar, or whatever else is on the market. With all that said I recommend the pro tools, but digidesign soundcard and no m-audio version. I'm personally not of a fan of theres and the only thing i bought from them that I didn't have to take back was the midi to usb converter i use at home with my XP.

If you dont go pro tools, then cubase, nuendo, or sonar are the best alternates. Its all a matter of preference though outside of the file formats(pro tools=AIFF, everything else typically=WAV and/or AIFF).

Also Ableton Live is very nice. I have it, but unfortunately dont have time to use it. Typically to wrapped up in Reason, FLStudio 6, and Cubase 4. One i don't recommend is acid pro. Can't feel that one at all.

Though I agree with Bangpow that you can get software at a cheaper price. You still need a few bits of hardware IMO. A vintage and/or recent analog keyboard, some hardware compressors, a mixing board, a decent amp, solid speaker monitors for mixing, and mic amp to go with decent mic(doesnt have to be the greatest) should help out in doing things right. Along with the software thats a good mix. In the end theres no way to avoid spend a couple/few thousand, but you can avoid spending $20,000 or higher.[smilie=peepwall.gi:

^^Precisely, furthering my point... But we're getting away from the point of the thread.

M-Powered is cool, but overrated to me. You can get the same results from the other major DAW's. The advantage it has that its parent company is the Industry standard format in AIFF. But for the life of me, why do these numb nuts at digidesign give it more recordable tracks? Either way if you arent working with pro tools HD, you better actually know what you're doing when it comes to mixing, otherwise it wont sound any better than cubase, samplitude, sonar, or whatever else is on the market. With all that said I recommend the pro tools, but digidesign soundcard and no m-audio version. I'm personally not of a fan of theres and the only thing i bought from them that I didn't have to take back was the midi to usb converter i use at home with my XP.

If you dont go pro tools, then cubase, nuendo, or sonar are the best alternates. Its all a matter of preference though outside of the file formats(pro tools=AIFF, everything else typically=WAV and/or AIFF).

Also Ableton Live is very nice. I have it, but unfortunately dont have time to use it. Typically to wrapped up in Reason, FLStudio 6, and Cubase 4. One i don't recommend is acid pro. Can't feel that one at all.

Though I agree with Bangpow that you can get software at a cheaper price. You still need a few bits of hardware IMO. A vintage and/or recent analog keyboard, some hardware compressors, a mixing board, a decent amp, solid speaker monitors for mixing, and mic amp to go with decent mic(doesnt have to be the greatest) should help out in doing things right. Along with the software thats a good mix. In the end theres no way to avoid spend a couple/few thousand, but you can avoid spending $20,000 or higher.[smilie=peepwall.gi:

I highly recommomend Ableton. You would be absolutely amazed at how easy it is to use especially if your trying to line up samples to your drums and what not. The warp markers are key. One of the drawbacks, though, is the sound quality is merely average.

Man, i hate when people get away from the point of the thread...
LOL

Man, i hate when people get away from the point of the thread...

To get back on track, I just had my cousin send me a bunch of links of sites that his company farmed out to other companies and what a shock. I can honestly say that those sites are no different than what I'm already doing. They are just using pre-packaged CMS software as well.

Since it appears I could have a foot in the door somewhere, I am starting to fell better about myself. ;)

bangpow:
Well, if you're saying that the market for doing whatever it is that you do is shrinking, that may be true. But do you think there's a market out there for anyone who does something well, and offers it at a good price?
Even if there isn't, what about this: Then what can you do to insulate yourself against a shrinking, or more restricted market? What is your plan to make a stand in this economy, and the one you'll face in the years to come?
If you look around you, what do you see people doing? I'm not talking about buying hoses, cars, shoveling dog shit, etc. But what, at the base level, are most people doing?

Yeah, that's true, but to an extent. For the music I play and am most interested in (rock), I need a little more than an 1/8" input on a laptop's sound card. To remedy that, I'll get an audio interface (200-300 dollars). I need better guitar tone, either need a good FX pedal (at least 300 bucks) or software like Guitar Rig 2 (500 bucks), which I've tried, and it kicks ass by the way. Then, to mic people's drums, there's another 400-500 to do it right. The point is, to get good sound from rock, the money adds up pretty quick. For R&B/Hip Hop, you don't need nearly as much as almost everything is synth. Anywho, I'll quit babbling...
yea well you could spend half as much on the drum mic if you get the proper plugins. Actually you're right, you don't tyypically need as much in typical hip hop. Unfortunately when you want to hybrid and do R&B, you gotta have some live playing at your disposal, but as far as drums go, typically not using live drums, which always kicks you in the nuts for the extra coin it runs you.

Doens't anybody DJ parties for guys like me who like showtunes and Frank Sinatra?

My friend went to college trying to plan for a specific career and now she works at a car dealership selling extended warranties making much more than she did when she was in her major. She says its not fulfilling but the money sure is. She says she made over 100k last year.

Try to plan for a career that you will like and make money, but be prepared for some unknowns.

I highly recommomend Ableton. You would be absolutely amazed at how easy it is to use especially if your trying to line up samples to your drums and what not. The warp markers are key. One of the drawbacks, though, is the sound quality is merely average.
Cubase 4 is just as good at it. Hitpoint markers were developed for such. In fact anything that Ableton had over everyone else, Cubase copied or tried to enhance as an addition to their system. It was a smart move and Honestly imo makes them the DAW to beat(not counting pro tools lock on the industry standard). Either way Ableton Live is definitely a great piece. But I can only use so much w/o fucking with my creativity focus. Maybe i'll drop Reason and try more Ableton. hard to say at the moment. either way the sound shouldnt be much of an issue, see if you can adjust it to record at a higher level or convert your samples to a higher format in wavelab.. Cubase can record at anywhere from 16 bit to(i typically go at 24 bit) 32 bit float.

Tahoe:
That's a good point, but I'd submit that your friend has a knack, and likes selling cars, she just didn't know it.
MANY people work outside their major. A college degree is no sure path to success. A lack of one doesn't consign you to the world of burger flipping and broom pushing, either.

bangpow:
Well, if you're saying that the market for doing whatever it is that you do is shrinking, that may be true. But do you think there's a market out there for anyone who does something well, and offers it at a good price?
Even if there isn't, what about this: Then what can you do to insulate yourself against a shrinking, or more restricted market? What is your plan to make a stand in this economy, and the one you'll face in the years to come?
If you look around you, what do you see people doing? I'm not talking about buying hoses, cars, shoveling dog shit, etc. But what, at the base level, are most people doing?

I don't know. I honestly see people changing jobs and sometimes professions all throughout their life. I take the philosphy of trying to be versatile and I like to think I'm a technical kind of guy. I've always tended to look deeper into projects and tinker with things to make them better. I think the future is technology and I also think that I kind find my way through it one way or another.

I think most people are doing what they do to get by and for most of them they are working jobs that they hate for the almight dollar. I see a lot of people stuck in their jobs and hating life wanting to do something different, but they make decent money doing what they do. That's all well and good, but I also take the attitude of trying to do something I like and figuring out how to get paid at it. I personally think it all works itself out eventually.

Plus, I have the dreaded fall back plan of learning how to DJ weddings for extra cash if I needed to.

Agree ZG, my degree is in computer science. I built them at first, then supported them, then database shit. Made decent money. Then built a house on the side and dropped all computer work.

Cubase 4 is just as good at it. Hitpoint markers were developed for such. In fact anything that Ableton had over everyone else, Cubase copied or tried to enhance as an addition to their system. It was a smart move and Honestly imo makes them the DAW to beat(not counting pro tools lock on the industry standard). Either way Ableton Live is definitely a great piece. But I can only use so much w/o fucking with my creativity focus. Maybe i'll drop Reason and try more Ableton. hard to say at the moment. either way the sound shouldnt be much of an issue, see if you can adjust it to record at a higher level or convert your samples to a higher format in wavelab.. Cubase can record at anywhere from 16 bit to(i typically go at 24 bit) 32 bit float.

Right. I went the M-World seminar thing that M-Audio held at Effigy Studios a few months back and all they did to make Ableton sound better is ReWire it into Pro Tools with no processing on or anything. It sounded a helluva lot better, that's for sure.

I ended up winning an M-Audio Microtrack that day too. :)

My wife is my retirement. She contracts out at $150 an hour at age 26. My company wants to promote me this summer, hell with that.

bangpow:
Man, that's exactly it: People groveling. Hating their job, but stuck with it. I dispute, though, that most make "decent money". They are making just enough to keep their stuff from being carried away.
That brings me to another point: this "marriage and kids" thing (yes, I harp on it): Alot of people do that before they do anything else. Then they are in that struggle. Alot of people like to romaticize the struggle.
To me, the sruggle is romantic if you're wife waits patienly while you build a busniess or you both finish off school and get a career going, and THEN you start up the other shit.
It isn't at all romantic trying to feed a family of four with 40 bucks to live on for two weeks. That's a BIG difference.
Trouble is, I look around and see most people groveling, man. Lokced into bullshit jobs or careers, in debt up to their eyeballs, and then they walk around fucking trying to convince everyone that they're happy. Bullshit.
Too often it's the story of young people surrendering the power of their youth, groveling, and then waking up at 35 and feeling beat up by each other and themselves. Divorce. Or, walking around like zombies all their lives spewing out such absolute bullshit lines like, "I love my wife" or "I love my kids I wouldn't rade them for the world", or "We struggled when we were young, and it made us stronger" OK, yeah, that sounds good. You think it's romantic sitting at the bar drinking twelve beers while your lights are about to be turned off? You think it's "romantic" that your children had to raise themselves while you had your head up your ass til you were (in my case, yesterday) 40? I don't.
I think alot of that stuff can be avoided, though. I have three daughters, all of whom are expressly forbidden to utter the phrase "When I get married and have kids". They are allowed to discuss college, plans for their future, friendships, how they'll take care of me when I get old, and anything BUT the usual bullshit people talk about.
And they are in NO WAY allowed to watch Michigan Football. One miserable bastard in the house is enough.

By the way, bangpow (and others): It IS easy to sit back and criticize the world when you get older. Especially if you're honest about your own shit.
That's the fun part about getting old. Calling everybody a fuckhead.

bangpow:
Man, that's exactly it: People groveling. Hating their job, but stuck with it. I dispute, though, that most make "decent money". They are making just enough to keep their stuff from being carried away.
That brings me to another point: this "marriage and kids" thing (yes, I harp on it): Alot of people do that before they do anything else. Then they are in that struggle. Alot of people like to romaticize the struggle.
To me, the sruggle is romantic if you're wife waits patienly while you build a busniess or you both finish off school and get a career going, and THEN you start up the other shit.
It isn't at all romantic trying to feed a family of four with 40 bucks to live on for two weeks. That's a BIG difference.
Trouble is, I look around and see most people groveling, man. Lokced into bullshit jobs or careers, in debt up to their eyeballs, and then they walk around fucking trying to convince everyone that they're happy. Bullshit.
Too often it's the story of young people surrendering the power of their youth, groveling, and then waking up at 35 and feeling beat up by each other and themselves. Divorce. Or, walking around like zombies all their lives spewing out such absolute bullshit lines like, "I love my wife" or "I love my kids I wouldn't rade them for the world", or "We struggled when we were young, and it made us stronger" OK, yeah, that sounds good. You think it's romantic sitting at the bar drinking twelve beers while your lights are about to be turned off? You think it's "romantic" that your children had to raise themselves while you had your head up your ass til you were (in my case, yesterday) 40? I don't.
I think alot of that stuff can be avoided, though. I have three daughters, all of whom are expressly forbidden to utter the phrase "When I get married and have kids". They are allowed to discuss college, plans for their future, friendships, how they'll take care of me when I get old, and anything BUT the usual bullshit people talk about.
And they are in NO WAY allowed to watch Michigan Football. One miserable bastard in the house is enough.


Well, I can say that both my wife and I work pretty well as a team. We have debt, but nothing too bad. It's not like we have a shitload of maxed out credit cards. We had to take out a home equity line of credit to get our basement waterproofed, but our tax return pretty much paid that off. We live rather simple. We have our home base and I have enough interests to keep me at home, which i really like to do.

And I agree, most people live this rather mundane life of thinking that they have to follow this life guideline of graduating high school, going to college, getting married, having 2.2 kids and having a nice house with a white picket fence.

F that! That's not fun or interesting to me. Granted, I think owning a house is key, but as far as following this guideline is BS. Like I said, I'm a firm believer in doing something that you want to do and you will figure out how to get paid for it.

Like, my wife is back in school and she's not exactly sure what she wants to do, but I told her that go into something she likes and it will work itself out. Sure, maybe it won't, but like I said, I think I/we can be versatile and make things work.

That's sounding pretty good to me.
you are right, you GOT TO own a house. I'm pretty sure everyone has debt. Manageable debt is the key there. Nothing to apologize for, or regret about that one.
I don't want to make it seem that I think everyone is a dolt for what they do, though. We all do the best with what we have at the time we do it.
I think that ultimately what bugs me is that we tend to, again, surrender our power and youthful optimism and energy, and morph into a life of acceptance and that old "quiet desperation" thing. When I look at that article and it says 53% of people who make over $100,000 per year still feel that they are on the brink of poverty, I shake my head in disbelief.

Thanks Glenn.
you're a genius.

That's sounding pretty good to me.
you are right, you GOT TO own a house. I'm pretty sure everyone has debt. Manageable debt is the key there. Nothing to apologize for, or regret about that one.
I don't want to make it seem that I think everyone is a dolt for what they do, though. We all do the best with what we have at the time we do it.
I think that ultimately what bugs me is that we tend to, again, surrender our power and youthful optimism and energy, and morph into a life of acceptance and that old "quiet desperation" thing. When I look at that article and it says 53% of people who make over $100,000 per year still feel that they are on the brink of poverty, I shake my head in disbelief.

Yeah, I hear that. Shoot, my sister-in-law was saying something to that effect. Like, her and my brother make a damn good amount of money between the two of them and they have this big ass house in Canton. They have talked about moving down to Florida, but she wants to find a house that's as big as their current one down there, but they're way expensive.

Now, they would just have two small children and they don't even utilize half of their current house, so why in the hell would they need such a huge joint?!

To me, that doesn't make any sense.

When it comes to me and houses, I need the essentials. 3 bedrooms for resale value, a separate living and dining room, a kitched, and basement suitable for the Man's room. I almost have it all right now, but we have an eat-in kitchen which isn't condusive to family gatherings and no dining room. Oh, and the area has to be decent. by "decent" I mean an area that has personality and isn't all snob-like. I really like where I live in Dearborn now.

So, the next house we get will have the essentials and we won't have to break the bank to find it.

That's what I like to hear: A young dude who has a realistic outlook combined with visions for his future.
I think we do make life way too complicated alot of the time, then all the sudden wake up in a pile of crap that you can't work your way out of.
Again, it all sounds so easy when you are my age, but that's the thing: You want to convey the message that it at least isn't nearly as hard as we think it has to be.
I wonder if there's any other old guys out there and what their thoughts are?
That is, if they're not hanging from a beam in their basement by now.

Well, I don't know if I have too much more to add to this thread... Zip, I am planning to carry out those desires (music/novelist), but I also plan to stay in school as you said in case that just does not happen to work out. Hell, if I like what I go into, I might stay in school for a couple more years to get a master's or a Ph.D, depending on what I do. Thanks for the advice.

Not advice, man, you KNOW what you want and have to do, just listen to yourself. But don't leave the thread, man, someone may need YOUR advice!
It's going to expand into other areas.

I know, man, I meant for the time being.

im planning for my future by becoming a vegetarian. 3 weeks strong so far. i figure by eating well, working out regularly, not smoking, quiting drugs, and cutting back on drinking im a lock to live to 100. now THATS a future.

as far as the career/fiscal side. i dropped out of law school after one year, moved to chicago, and am now 4 mnths into a shit kicker job that i could have got out of HS. i dont save any money, mostly cuz i had almost nothing so i had mui expenses (buying furniture and all the other necessities). im pretty well established now (or i would be if i didnt just total my no-collision-insurance car this weekend), so i can start working on that stupid debt i got from L-school. the good news is that i should be promoted to a commodity trader in hopefully less than 6 mnths and sooner or later i'll beable to prove to tahoe that 150k a year is stinking rich (again, hopefully).

ps: i dont spend very much money, try to keep my bar bill low by only drinking the cheep end beers or well drinks on special. its hard to spend money on food when your a vegetarian. and my rent is cheep for lincoln park. i'd like to buy a place (when i get promoted), start paying off debt, and definitly plan for my retirement. even if my salary doubled, trippled, or even grew more than that, my lifestyle wouldnt change very much, i dont think.

even though im not acting on my future so much right now, i definitly do think about it alot. great thread.

diddy:
It sounds like you have your shit together, which is cool, like some other guys. Keeping your shit together will keep you WELL ahead of the majority of people.
BUT, can you REALLY be sure you won't "change" when the bucks roll in? When the bucks roll in, you'll be a different guy.
Young man, with bucks, no debt, no wife and kids. You walk into a room, and people will know. If you play it right, people will SMELL the confidence, the strength. How you gonna handle it then?
Chicks at the office are gonna start talking. You'll get invited to THE parties, lunches, after work cocktail hour.
The nice cars, the nice clothes, the nice cribs. The GOOD places to eat.
Man, it will come at you in waves. Watching Ben Wallace throw down on Shaq in X Box 360 will never be the same.
Are you "grounded"? Got a hobby? A passion? Do you read?
You say you were in law school, that means you have at least a bachelors degree, so you have some brains. Just don't let them atrophy while you wait for that promotion. That's going to be a heavy money clip to tote around.

My biggest downfall is how I do academically, I find myself leaving classes all the time asking myself: "did I actually learn something?" My education is really important, and I know this, but for some reason I still take it for granted. I have never been a good student, just do enough to get by, and I'm getting better, but I need to get that aspect of my life turned around before I can truly be successful, but what is weird, is when I'm at work, I'm usually working my ass off, maybe I need payment as motivation... who knows?

If you do end up in a non-rewarding job mentally but make good money, you can always do some pretty cool things philanthropically for that feel good part of your life. I go in cycles with that sort of thing. Hopefully that'll ramp up as I get more time and money.

Daviticus:
I wouldn't worry about it. When you get out there (unless, of course, you are going to college for a specialized degree, like Engineering), they're not gonna ask you to break down the Ancient Chinese Song Dynasty. They probably won't even ask for transcripts. Just whether or not you got the sheepskin.
Belive it or not, you ARE learning a whole lot. You are doing something that the vast majority DON'T do, and you are doing something you don't necessarily HAVE to do. You'll appreciate it later, that's for sure.
I went back to school as a 42 year old freshman, and I looked around at alot of younger people that seemed to be in your position: taking it for granted, maybe not terribly serious about it. But again, most of them probably will not finish, so if you do you'll be that much more ahead of alot of people.
Sometimes, that IS the name of the game, just get the degree!

Nice discussion today guys. Lots of great thoughts and input.

Nice discussion today guys. Lots of great thoughts and input. Especially you Tahoe. You are da man

Thanks bud.

I'm a pre med student, 1st year, all im doing right now is tryin to get good grades to go to med school. I don't spend money, I live at home, and instead of working i volunteer at the hospital. I just wish it wasn't so dang competitive, theres not enough spots in med school.

Finish college - It will add hundreds of thousands of dollars to your lifetime earnings.
This assumes your alternative to college isn't a job that pays and has similar career growth prospects to a middling-level bachelor's degree graduate. If your non-college option is a good job you want for your life, and you save sanely, you can benefit from...

Understand compound interest - An investment that earns 10 percent interest will double in value about every 7 years. A 16 year-old who invests $5,000 would have $640,000 by the time they turn 65. Building wealth takes time. Start young.
...and end up well ahead of the person who spent four years going to school, especially if they had to put themselves in debt.

Good point Moxie.
However, the person who doesn't go to school will, statistics show, cost himself roughly $1 Miilion in earnings over the course of a working lifetime. I don't hink the typical cost of a four year degree is $1 Million.
Also, the lower wages may not afford the typical person the money to invest in his future.
Another benefit of college is that, hopefully, you will also put off decisions like marriage and kids until you are a little more mature to handle the responsibilities that come with that.
One question I have on the $5000.00 investment: Is that a ONE TIME investment?
I have heard the argument that a person can begin investing $2000.00 per year at 18, and STOP investing that money at 27, and of course get that magical 10% interest rate and have over $1 Miilion for retirement, but if the same person BEGINS that $2000.00 per year investment at 27, and gets the 10%, he will never catch up to the person who started it at 18.
Things to think about. The American Economy is evolving to the point that one will not want to be uneducated in the years to come. And one will not want to combine the lack of education with poor decision making.

I listed a lot of caveats. Most kids don't have worthwhile options or even know what they want at 18, or sense that at 18, their decisions/indecisions can matter at age 65. Of those that do -- the kid who's been an apprentice all along to follow his dad's footsteps as a plumber -- most don't understand how to invest wisely. Learning about IRAs and other retirement options -- hell, just learning about basic finance -- should be a mandatory part of high school education. Of course, teachers max-ed out on credit cards paying student loans getting the least pay benefit from advanced education aren't the best teachers for such things.

I couldn't agree more Moxie.
A whole new curriculum needs to be developed that encompasses some sort of "Life Skill" teaching. Of course, a little education at home about that stuff wouldn't hurt.
But then again, many are reaping thee rewards of perpetuating an antiquated American belief system, and many children, even in two parent households, are raising themselves.
Teachers may nver get their due. Schools have become little more than eight hours day care centers for an American Youth that is simply not valuing education and concern for the future. That's why those who do will enter the workplace and society in general light years ahead of the masses.

Amazing thread. I have been kind of busy lately so I haven't checked up on the threads. I work for the state (science/engineering) in a decent paying job. I don't make 6 figures but I guess the potential is there in 10 years but then everyone will be making 7 figures :)

With a state job, job security is there so I don't have to worry about being laid off. The state gives me 4% of my paycheck for retirement and then matches 3%. So 10% goes into 401k. The rest I throw in a roth Ira and have some in the bank. The state also has a 457 plan which you can enroll in also that I'm thinking about doing. Health care will not be a problem. One of the perks is that you get your health care plan for life so I won't have to worry about that. I invest in funds that aren't too risky and I try to mix it up. I've been averaging a little over 9% rate of return which is good and hopefully I will have enough to retire when I'm 50-53.

I feel that good majors are usually the most painful ones but the most rewarding at the end. Someone mentioned earlier about dropping Electrical engineering for pscyhology... Don't do it. Psych is an easy major that will end up getting you a retail job. Tuition for engineering costs the same thing but you will get 45k out of college when psych gets 22k. I would switch to a different engineering major.

I feel that good majors are usually the most painful ones but the most rewarding at the end. Someone mentioned earlier about dropping Electrical engineering for pscyhology... Don't do it. Psych is an easy major that will end up getting you a retail job. Tuition for engineering costs the same thing but you will get 45k out of college when psych gets 22k. I would switch to a different engineering major.

That was me, but the thing is, I don't like/won't like engineering. I'm not going to just go into it even if I don't like it, and I'm still thinking about what I want to major in. If it's psychology, and I like it, then chances are I'll get a master's then go to med school for a couple of years. I don't really know yet. What I won't do is major only in psych for a bachelor's, as I know that won't get me far.

And I agree, most people live this rather mundane life of thinking that they have to follow this life guideline of graduating high school, going to college, getting married, having 2.2 kids and having a nice house with a white picket fence.



Going back to this statment for a second...

It straight up weirds me out when people follow the above plan to a tee. Like, I see classmates on Myspace that have the jobs, the kids, the house, the picket fence and I think to myself "how boring". To me, it seems like such a boring, soul-less existence. Now, I know those people could be happy and that a lot of people aspire for those "dreams" and that's fine, but it still doesn't mean that it doesn't seem weird to me.

Going back to this statment for a second...

It straight up weirds me out when people follow the above plan to a tee. Like, I see classmates on Myspace that have the jobs, the kids, the house, the picket fence and I think to myself "how boring". To me, it seems like such a boring, soul-less existence. Now, I know those people could be happy and that a lot of people aspire for those "dreams" and that's fine, but it still doesn't mean that it doesn't seem weird to me.
Yup.

bangpow:
Man, you have hit the nail on the head.
But how do you blame people? How do you try and tell them, or ask them, if they are really sure they've met their "soulmate" at 20 or 21 when our culture shoves that shit down your throat from Day One? I'm not suggesting that you DO blame them, or that you WOULD ask someone why they are doing that, but at some point (especially if your'e older), you do want to grab some young guy by the ears and knee him in the face because he's marrying the first piece of regular pussy he's ever had.
We tend to romanticize those notions of not only the American "Dream" (Which is packing its bags and moving to Inida and China by the way) so much that we romanitcize the struggle. How man people say something like, "Wow, we lived on cat food and Scrabble tiles for ten years, and now we have our very own trailer, and our four kids have christmas presents, and we've almost got ourselves caught up at Paycheck Advance, and we made it! I KNEW we belonged together!"
And, if you want to stay single, long about when you're 23 or 24 people will start asking, "When you gonna git married? Are you a homo?"
I'm amazed at how many people find "The One", or their "Soulmate" without leaving their home town, or even their neighborhood, or how many people find this "One" at the bar on Friday night. Six Billion people in this fucking world and you've found "The One" two blocks from the fucking house you grew up in?

This assumes your alternative to college isn't a job that pays and has similar career growth prospects to a middling-level bachelor's degree graduate. If your non-college option is a good job you want for your life, and you save sanely, you can benefit from...

...and end up well ahead of the person who spent four years going to school, especially if they had to put themselves in debt.
My freshman year Calc professor gave all his students a hand-out on day 1 about how if any of us could save $4,000 a year for the next 4 years and then never touch it, we'd be millionaires by the time we retired even if we never saved anything ever again. Then he said, "This is the best thing I'll teach you the whole semester. You can still come to class if you want to though."

He was pretty sweet. Retired after the next semester. I could only manage 2 grand that year but it was a start.

Very hard to do. You would have to get a return of 10% for 40 years straight.

Just an average of 10% over the 40 years.

The average annual rate of return for the stock market through the 20th century was 11%.

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/06/compoundingdarkside.asp

I'm aware of CAGR.

11% is also the CAGR for the S&P 500 for the 20th century. (Meaning even if you treated the market like a savings account, you'd make the mill if you put it all in the most standard of index funds and never adjusted a thing).

If you plan to work on the web, make sure you have an entrepreneurial spirit and a home life flexible enough to take advantage of opportunities. If you think you will do well just working 9-5 for a design house, even your own, then you are kidding yourself.

Consumer culture brings death to an agile mind.

As I get older, I'm looking for a lifestyle as much as financial security. After burning out a few years ago and slowly recovering, I am much wiser about the rampant and unchecked pursuit of money and it's debilitating effects.

I think everyone should try to invest the time into coming up with reasonable expectations about where they want to live, how much they require materially etc. If you can plan based on your expectations + a little more, then you'll see opportunities everywhere.

The trick is being honest. Some guys shack up, squeeze out a few puppies and are happy to have someone do their laundry and iron their shirts. That's not my scene, but I can respect it. It's all about living well today with an eye towards carrying that on tomorrow.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/RetirementandWills/CreateaPlan/Your30sWhenYouNeedToGetAhead.aspx

Doens't anybody DJ parties for guys like me who like showtunes and Frank Sinatra?
Yeah that's what we do... custom DJ shows... it's all over the place... one week it's a Bahamas theme (Buffet Beach boys etc)... next week it's Sinatra, Nat King Cole etc... then we're off to do Hip Hop and rock.
It takes a hell of a lot of music (about 22K tracks & counting)...
Oh and then there's the same collection of Karaoke.... thank god it's on the laptop so we don't have to cart it all around.

As for the future... I believe in diversifying... having that 2nd or third option in case your main gig goes in the shitter.
Right now I DJ, do home Inspections, builder... and online sales (exercise equipment).
It keeps the bordom down :^)