Wallace to face Pistons for first time as opponent

Associated Press

DEERFIELD, Ill. -- Ben Wallace figures the emotions will tug at him like an aggressive defender.

Wallace will face his former Detroit teammates Saturday night for the first time since signing with Chicago in the offseason. And maybe he can put to rest the notion that there's lingering ill will.

"It's going to be emotional to go back out there and play against these guys that I went to war with for so many years," Wallace said of the game at the United Center. "But I think it's going to be good. When I left, there was a lot of stuff said about me abandoning the team, me and some players didn't get along.

"It'll just be good to show everybody that we're going to play hard against each other, but at the end of the day, we've still got much love for each other."

A four-time defensive player of the year, Wallace blossomed during his six seasons in Detroit -- a run that included a championship in 2004 and four selections to the All-Star game. He was the Pistons' star, but he reportedly did not get along with coach Flip Saunders and refused to re-enter a game in the fourth quarter last season.

There were also reports that Wallace wanted to be more involved in the offense, which he has called a misunderstanding, saying he just wanted to help set up teammates and not take more shots.

Meanwhile, the Bulls were looking for help down low and some veteran leadership after losing to eventual champion Miami in six games in the first round of the playoffs last season. Although Wallace didn't provide the scoring punch they lacked, he figured to strengthen a defense that was already good.

The marquee free agent, the Bulls signed him for four years and $60 million, but the transition hasn't been smooth.

Chicago struggled defensively early on, the perimeter players at times relying too heavily on Wallace to bail them out. The result was a 3-9 start for a team expected to contend in the Eastern Conference.

The frustration boiled over when Wallace violated a team rule by wearing a headband at New York on Nov. 25. It was a low point and, coincidentally, a turning point for Chicago.

Wallace was benched during that game, which the Bulls won 106-95. It started a turnaround for Chicago, at 19-13 entering Friday's game at New Jersey.

Luol Deng is enjoying a breakout season, averaging 18.1 points and 6.5 rebounds. Ben Gordon has seen his scoring average jump from 16.9 to 20.8, and the third-year pro is making a case for his second NBA sixth man of the year award.

But Wallace?

He's 13th in the league at 9.9 rebounds and 10th in blocks at 1.97 per game -- not bad. But it's his worst season, statistically, since 1999-2000, when he averaged 8.2 and 1.6 for Orlando. His current scoring average is 6.8.

And opposing centers have put up some lofty numbers -- most recently by Amare Stoudemire, who scored 24 points and grabbed 18 rebounds in Phoenix's 97-96 victory on Tuesday.

Wallace shook it off, saying, "That's the makeup of their team. ... They've got so many guys you've got to be aware of, it's easy for [them] to get to the spots they want to get to."

But according to the Elias Sports Bureau, it was only the third time an opposing center had that many points and rebounds in a game Wallace started. Patrick Ewing had 28 and 18 on April 7, 2000, when Wallace was with Orlando. And David Robinson had 29 points and 22 rebounds on Jan. 6, 2001, in a game against the Pistons.

Orlando's Dwight Howard (27 points, 11 rebounds on Nov. 1), Dallas' Erick Dampier (14 points, 13 rebounds on Nov. 14), Houston's Yao Ming (20 points, 12 rebounds on Nov. 16) and New York's Eddy Curry (24 points, eight rebounds on Nov. 28) have all had big games against Chicago this season.

Wallace has insisted since the headband incident that he's more comfortable with the Bulls, and it doesn't hurt that they're living up to their billing and challenging the Pistons.

"We've been more consistent for longer stretches," coach Scott Skiles said. "We're still not where we need to be, but we've definitely been better."

Wallace sees a young core maturing, communicating more and is not surprised by the results.

"We had to get a chance to know each other and really feel each other out as teammates and people," Wallace said. "People look at it on paper and say, 'They should be doing this; they should be doing that.' But until you get to know each other, you go through different spells. You go up and down."

He'll face a familiar group on Saturday night, and the Bulls don't visit Detroit until Feb. 25.

"I guess it will be good to let our fans boo them before I have an opportunity to let their fans boo me," Wallace said.

:langlois:


Seeing Red

by Keith Langlois
Friday, January 5, 2007

The nature of Ben Wallace’s relationship with his old Pistons buddies didn’t change six months ago when Big Ben signed with the Chicago Bulls. It didn’t change in early October when the Pistons showed up at training camp and the guy with the bulging muscles and big hair wasn’t among them. And it won’t change when he walks to center court at the United Center on Saturday night to jump ball with Nazr Mohammed.

Sometime after that, it will. And it will never go back to what it was.

Even Ben Wallace realizes that. As he told Chicago media the other day, “Until the ball goes up, it’s just another game.” Then what, Ben? “Who knows?”

A basketball team is a chemistry experiment. Take away one ingredient and the product is irretrievably changed. Alter the environment and what was once a solid could turn to liquid or gas. Charge an ion and the properties scramble.

The toothpaste is out of the tube on Ben Wallace and the Pistons, a relationship forever changed. And you know when it will sink in for everyone? If the Pistons and Bulls meet in the playoffs, and the way things are going - New Jersey’s season on the rocks, Miami reeling so badly Pat Riley pulled a Larry Brown and opted for surgery, Cleveland running in quicksand - it seems inevitable that Detroit and Chicago are going to run headlong into each other sometime around the middle of May.

And that’ll be that.

Which doesn’t mean that Big Ben still won’t have Chauncey Billups on speed dial, and vice versa. It won’t mean that Ben won’t swing by Joe Dumars’ house when he’s back in Detroit to visit friends one day next summer. And it won’t mean that in 2024, when they hold the 20th reunion of the 2004 champions, that Ben Wallace won’t feel every bit the camaraderie as he did the night the Pistons vanquished the mighty Lakers of Shaq and Kobe.

But at some point over the ensuing months - maybe Saturday night at the United Center, maybe Feb. 25 when Big Ben returns to The Palace, maybe sometime around the middle of May - what will really spin the Ben Wallace-Pistons relationship off its axis is the first time Tayshaun Prince rolls across the lane and catches one of Big Ben’s blacksmith forearms across his neck

Remember how sweet it was when Magic and Isiah would peck each other on the cheek before tipoff in the ’88 NBA Finals? Yeah? Remember when Magic sent Isiah flying like a Tinker Toy as he made one of his fearless forays to the hoop at the old Silverdome? They were bosom buddies before and … just sort of nodding acquaintances shortly thereafter.

Same thing, different cast.

Some guys you love to play with but hate to play against. (Bill Laimbeer remains the poster boy for such players, and I will go to my grave believing that’s the highest compliment you could ever give him, and one that secretly would delight him.) And don’t misinterpret that. No one is suggesting Ben Wallace is a dirty player - only that he is a player who embraces dirty work, which makes life uncomfortable for the opposition.

And the Pistons represent the opposition now. They loved to play with him. They’ll hate to play against him.

It’s good that the Pistons are playing the Bulls on the road before Chicago comes here, I suppose. Gives everybody involved - Big Ben, his former teammates and, most critically, Pistons fans, a chance to dip their toe in the water and warm to the idea of Ben Wallace in Bulls red instead of Pistons blue. Having the first exposure in their own living room could have been as jarring as a Big Ben free throw.

What do you expect from Ben Wallace against the Pistons? Only his best, the deepest resolve possible from a man with a vast resolve reservoir. Everything else Ben Wallace might be - and he is many things - is dwarfed by pride. The man leads the league in pride. Nothing else explains how an undersized, undrafted center from a school off the basketball map with no discernible ball skills could rise to the level of MVP discussion while driving the renaissance of a franchise that had lost its way.

The Pistons who followed his lead loved it when his scowling fearlessness discouraged the guy they were guarding from even thinking about driving past them to the basket. They loved it when they fired up a shot that would have Rick Carlisle or Larry Brown tsk-tsking if not for Ben swooping in from the opposite side to chase down the rebound and keep the possession alive. And they loved it when their failed defensive gambles would wind up 12 rows deep as another blocked shot got added to their stopper’s total.

Now they’ll be crowded by equally protected defenders and, perhaps, cowed by their former teammate’s menacing aura. You play against Ben Wallace and one of two things happens - you either shrink from his in-your-face challenge or you stoke up the competitive fire to go right back at him.

You’ve seen the Pistons. Even without Big Ben, the chip still sits on their collective shoulder. So shrinking isn’t a very likely option. That suggests collisions are coming. And NBA basketball isn’t a no-fault state. It doesn’t mean great friends will inevitably become bitter enemies, but it almost certainly cools the relationships, if only temporarily, in the ultimate temporary business. Ben Wallace was supposed to be a Piston forever. He’s not quite yet a Bull, either. He becomes one the moment his blacksmith’s forearm puts a Piston to the paint.

Looking forward to this one. Wish CBill was playing. Nazr is going to own BWall. Ok, that was a little trash talkin.

nice avatar glenn. the best part is when the bitch looks at him and says "thank you."

would have never thought i'd hear these words:


Myers also said Ben Wallace hasn't yet adjusted, physically, to the Bulls' faster style.

"You look at Ben and you see this phenomenal body," Myers said. "He looks in shape. He looks intimidating. But you still have to be in basketball shape. You can lift and tone and do all of that, but as you get older, you don't have the same endurance you had when you were younger. You think you are putting out the same at 32 as you did when you were 25, but you are not.

"He has to get himself in better shape, cardio-wise. And he's doing that. He's making progress."
Ben Wallace......needs to get in better shape?

Link (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070106/SPORTS0102/701060357/1127)

About the only player who has as many minutes at C as Ben Wallace is Emeka Okafor. I think Pete Myers doth protest too much.

OT: Interestingly, that first article Glenn posted was written out of Deerfield, Ill., where I just happen to reside during the academic year. I live somewhat near the Bulls practice facility, and about 5 minutes away from MJ, Scottie Pippen, and Horace Grant's current/old homes.

I got lost in the north burbs once. I was brand new to Chicago, met this girl at Medusa's who went to Northwestern. After a couple dates in Chicago, I was supposed to meet up with her, but she was awful with directions. (This was before the age of Internet maps and ubiquitous cell phones.) She had her dad, who spoke English poorly, give me directions. He blew the distinction between "290/294" and "to 90/94". And, in true engineering spirit, he didn't really get the difference between the compass direction north and a road with "North" in its name (which actually ran more east/west along that stretch). I was hours late to the "family gets to meet and greet and size me up" thing. I'm fairly sure I ended up in Deerfield en route to oblivion.

OT: Interestingly, that first article Glenn posted was written out of Deerfield, Ill., where I just happen to reside during the academic year. I live somewhat near the Bulls practice facility, and about 5 minutes away from MJ, Scottie Pippen, and Horace Grant's current/old homes.

I think I just read in the RedEye that Ben moved in two doors down from Scottie so add him to your stalker list.

Looks like every time Ben caresses the ball when someone is shooting a FT, the Pistons (Nazr and Rip) are asking for the ball and taking Ben's hex off. Head games???

BTYW Nazr hieght shows over Ben imo. Sheed with an early tech and 2 blocks.

Anyone up for a game chat?

I admit I've had a few beers but is/has there been a better finisher on the fast break in the last few years then the Tay? His friggin length in so hard to defend.

Some first quarter thoughts....

- Man, seeing Ben on the other squad reminds me how good he is defensively. He's always on the prowl and make the other team almost treat him like Deion Sanders, playing away from him.

- Man, seeing Ben on the other squad reminds me how bad he is offensively :D

- Sheed's defense is so underrated on this team. that block from behind, on Ben was awesome.

- The Bulls are so dependent on the jumper it's ridiculous. And we worry about our team's love for the J. they have zero inside presence. at least we have guys like Tayshaun, Nazr, Dice and Max who can score near the basket.

also, the Bulls passing is real good, imo. the reason they shoot so many jumpers seem to be that they move the ball around so crisply, they get open looks.

Maxiell w/ the rejection!!!

i love how he's not afraid to go for the big block.....

and Delfino for threeee!!!!!!!!

the weakside blocks tonight are awesome......10 blocks already in the 2nd quarter.

10 blocks? They said we had 8 at the 6 minute mark of the second quarter. Damn good D by Sheed, Max and Nazr.

Our second unit came in and cut it to 2(?) from 7 but couldn't hold it. Lets hang in there and steal it at the end.

ohfuckryingoutloud. The bulls can throw up anything tonight and it will go in.

good lawd, Ben Gordon throws up a prayer to beat the shot clock.....

Deng and Nocioni are destroying us.

Pistons down 14

Bulls have 20 assists on 27 FG's. they're certainly finding the open man tonight.

I still can't get used to hearing Ben's bell somewhere else.

ok, those old farts on WGN just called Ben, "The Body".....that's just wrong.

We playing defense like pussies. The bulls love our zones.

Lets remember that the bulls started off like boo boo this season. technically speaking they are better than us at this point.

Watching the game from the 3rd with 6 mins left and we are getting crushed...fuck a flip's 1-7

i'm envious of the way the Bulls are moving the ball tonight.....shit.

wtf floater by blalock

Nocioni came up limping on a drive to the basket. sadly, that's the best chance we've got right now....

Rip gets a tech.....dummy.

Maxiell with a putback slam......that was so quick, i thought he missed it, lol.

Pistons down 16.

Rip STFU!

That "the body" call is really annoying..

"and that put back by "mcneil"...

and the tech by richard

this game would be completely different with chauncy in the game. and i believe, save the bulls making a big move, we will beat them in the playoffs because they dont have anyone who can stop rip, and they still play like a young team sometimes.

but these bulls are good. and it doesnt suprise me at all to see ben bringing it. nazr is having a good game, but he's not in ben's league.

btw, chicago broadcaster are horrible. they all call ben 'the body' all the time, and it never sounds natural. the local broadcast team is unbearable. the color guy doesnt even follow the game, he simply monitors all the bad calls that are constantly going against the bulls. its a complete jke.

WTF!!!!

three tip in chances and nothing.

Sheed calling Ben, "Body" = cool.

Two old farts calling Ben, "The Body" = awkward and makes me feel dirty inside.

hell hath frozen over.......Carlos Delfino drew two offensive fouls in one game!

CHARGE BEAUTFUL CARLOS

Looks like no one can hit anything while the Bulls have been getting everything.

i know i wasn't the only who KNEW that Ben Gordon three point shot was going in after Delfino fouled him......wtf.

Was that Sheed shouting "How you like the hometown cooking?"

Delfino needs to stop the blocking and fouling all at once:(

WOW i didnt think Flip's pass would make it to Max...

Come on Pistons!!!!!!!!!!! 3 by Tay

Without CB, we really have a hardtime setting things up and hitting the "big"shots.

On a good note, Rip has done almost everything he can to keep this team alive[smilie=rip.gif]

What the fuck is with the Tay suck?

Tayshaun is horrible tonight 2/12 and can't hit his free throws...

and the tay blocking Reggie clip came out giving me goosebumps[smilie=llama_banan:

We should just take Rip out of the game, at the way we playing right now, we have no chance

AMIR FOR RIP IT IS!!!!!!

lol, Ben airballs a three pointer and the loudest guy giving him hell is Sheed

i'm really liking Maxiell's confidence with the basketball. it'd be nice if he worked on a few more moves like a spin or an up-and-under. right now he's getting his points by bullying people near the rim or shooting right over them.

Our bench isnt doing too bad.

I love the Amir block on Hinrich...reminds me of Big Ben...

Wake up call. we are far from ready.

oh and flip murray needs to be traded if we want to win a title.

Maxiell w/ a sick fadeaway jumper........scouting reports are going to zero in on the fact that that's his only offensive move soon. i'd like to see him throw in some pump fakes and develop a more complete post game.

how about that amir johnson? gotta love him coming into the game and doing everything he can to get more pt, from blocks to great help defense to clipping the guy infront of him on the depth chart.

ps for those who think ben is overrated, the pistons were doing to the bulls all last year what they are doing to us tonight, except we threw a few bitch slaps too. like i said, give us billups and its a different game, but this was a true ass kicking, and ben was a huge part.

I don't see this as they are better than us by NO stretch. Sorry, I just don't. This game meant more to them then us. They have to measure up to us. They are the up and comers. Are they good? Yes, but I won't be shaking in my boots to play these guys in a series with a healthy CBill.

Nazr played pretty damn good when i was watching. Maybe not points but just stacking up against Ben and shit.

The 12 game winning streak in ChiTown is over, thats all.

how about that amir johnson? gotta love him coming into the game and doing everything he can to get more pt, from blocks to great help defense to clipping the guy infront of him on the depth chart.

ps for those who think ben is overrated, the pistons were doing to the bulls all last year what they are doing to us tonight, except we threw a few bitch slaps too. like i said, give us billups and its a different game, but this was a true ass kicking, and ben was a huge part.

a part of me was glad to see the Chicago fans giving Ben a standing ovation when he left the floor. especially with reports of the fanbase getting impatient with Ben, given his fat contract. he deserves at least one good ovation when he's introduced at the Palace......but then he's the enemy.

tonight looked like vintage Ben with him affecting the game from all areas on defense. he finishes with 12 pts, 15 reb, 6 blks, 2 steals. sure, he's not going to do that every night, but was damn good tonight. i was hoping he'd look slow and lost tonight, so i could feel better about him being gone....but, i definitely missed seeing him makes those plays in a Pistons uni.

give us Chauncey and let Nocioni/Deng shoot a little less than they ridiculous 66% FG tonight, and like b-diddy said, it's a different game, obviously.

Wake up call. we are far from ready.

i think we're a work in progress and we're getting better. we actually have weapons off the bench and for the first time in a while, a few bench guys are making big impacts in games.

given the competition in the East right now, if we can continue to improve, i think we might be pleasantly surprised in the latter half of the season and the playoffs.

ya'll sound like teams fans who said it was no big deal when ben owned them with us. that means more excuse doesnt cut it for me. but to each his own.

ya'll sound like teams fans who said it was no big deal when ben owned them with us. that means more excuse doesnt cut it for me. but to each his own.

i'm not saying we're an championship caliber team or even a lock for the ECFs. i just think the east is so mediocre right now, we're in the top tier, even though we're still growing as a team.

bulls were good and they deserve credit. they've got a great young core.

however ben came to play this night like few other nights. yes, he plays hard and did play hard for us. but he did not and does not play with the fire he played with tonight, regularly. i don't know if it's conditioning, age, or desire.

but ben very rarely brought it like he did tonight. we needed that from him a lot more last year but he didn't quite do it, either because he was too tired or too pissed off we were emphasizing offense to our defense's detriment.

i give him credit for what he did tonight. but there's no way he can bring that level of intensity night in and night out. he hasn't so far, which is why so many bulls fans are irritated with him.

Ben is doing what he did for us many times. play big in meaningful games. not always in the others. come playoff time, you'll see what we saw tonight.

how many bulls games have you watched this year? i've seen a bunch, and ben has looked great. so basically, im saying your pulling shit out of your ass on this one. bulls fans may have got a little anxious early, but that was a while ago.

if your pointing the finger at a guy for lack of effort last year, ben should be the last one you point at.

if it appears that he's playing with more effort, id say its for two reasons: 1) skiles utilizes him on D better than flip. mainly because flip rememberd how effective his 1-2-2 zones were with garnett at the head of it, so he thought it would be a good idea to send ben out to the perimeter (see cleveland series where lebron dumped it into the middle for an easy jam approximately 500 times). skiles keeps ben in the paint, where he has more of an impact in the game. 2) the other reason he seems to be playing with more effort is because he is. thats cause skiles has enough sense to reward his big man with a few touches. anyone who's played basketball knows you have to let everyone get involved in the game for them to play their best. i should say almost everyone. flip apparently doesnt know that. and other than that between the legs crossover / fadeaway 3, ben looked great on offense.

hell hath frozen over.......Carlos Delfino drew two offensive fouls in one game!

He draws them a lot (Him and Maxiell must lead the team). It's just that the refs only call it correctly 1/3 of the time.

admitedly i've seen only about 6 bulls games. but in each ben did not play with near the intensity as he did last night. not that he was slacking, but he did not get to that level.

anyway, i stand by my claim. i am not trying to trash him or anything close. but the reality of it is that for MANY games last year ben was not himself. he was not totally doggin it but he very often was sort of just going through the motions.

please don't anybody say i'm just saying this now because he's gone, because i'm not. i was saying this last year on another board i was on. something was not right with him and i couldn't figure it out. he was not defending, boxing out, or 'bringing it' with his usual level of intensity. i wondered at the time whether it was injury or whether he was trying to 'preserve himself subconsciously' for FA.

it seems now it was more dissatisfaction with the coach and our strategy as a whole. ben seemed to say to himself: "well nobody else is playing with this level of intensity or defending like me, so shoot- why should i kill myself? plus, they ain't giving me touches on offense so why should i kill myself on D for them?"

he was sulking a little bit out there and it showed in his play IMO. don't get me wrong- i know all the hundreds of games where ben won them for us, and played his heart out like the warrior he is. but i don't care what anybody says, i saw something wrong with him last year and i know what i saw.

i believe he's inspired now to prove himself a bit more (particularly when playing his old team!) but that overall he will get to a point where either age or desire will lead to him not playing at the high level he needs to, in order to be as effective as he's capable of being.

Hate to be the guy. But you're saying it because he's gone. :) Just saying is all. Its hard not to be subjective about Ben believe me. I find myself yelling "fuck you Ben" randomly at the tv. But I do recognize what he's done for them whether chicago fans have or haven't. I do see what it'll be worth come playoff time. And finally I do see the same hating out of some of us that other teams fans did on us last year with Ben.

I will just keep saying what I said before (and by before I mean when Ben was still with Detroit). He's a great defensive player and rebounder but his offense sucks and his free throw shooting is a joke. He's not worth what he's getting paid and will slow down each year. Chicago is in a now or never mode in this and next year. After that, Ben will slow down and they will have trouble keeping players due to contracts expiring.

I will just keep saying what I said before (and by before I mean when Ben was still with Detroit). He's a great defensive player and rebounder but his offense sucks and his free throw shooting is a joke. He's not worth what he's getting paid and will slow down each year. Chicago is in a now or never mode in this and next year. After that, Ben will slow down and they will have trouble keeping players due to contracts expiring.
What is the wage of winning? How much are wins worth? Lots of high paid losers out there (Pierce, Carter) who make the All-Star game. I'd rather have an overpaid winner than an overpaid loser. Capiche?

Bottom line, when Ben went south last year, so did this entire team. It speaks volumes about his leadership by example. Without Ben, the team lacks character or identity besides Mr. Big Shit and Roscoe Clown Wallace.

Remember when Detroit worked hard? THAT TEAM IS DEAD. Somewhere along the line, Joe and Mr. D forgot that it's ok to pay a hard worker who isn't flashy.

And don't preach about the damn free throws. Nazr is a better free throw shooter and scorer. Do you still like him in our lineup over Ben?

HELL NAW!

I don't give two shits about last nights game. It's just a warmup for us as teams are hitting their stride and we have 4 PGs , 2 injured, 1 useless and 1 clueless.

on a funny aside, the Pistons teased Ben Wallace before the game, coming out with headbands on:


Rasheed Wallace had some fun at his former teammate's expense during pregame warmups, when he tried to hand Big Ben a headband. Ben Wallace, who was benched for wearing one during a game at New York in late November, jokingly tossed it aside.

"Just messing with him," Rasheed Wallace said. "That's my man. We've got to mess with him."

"I think the whole team came out with headbands," Ben Wallace said, smiling. "That was premeditated on their part."

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=270106004&campaign=rss&source=NBAHeadlines)


• When Rasheed Wallace took the floor for warm-ups, he ran to center court where Ben Wallace stood chatting with Pistons assistant Ron Harper and Tayshaun Prince. Rasheed stopped in front of Ben, removed his headband and handed it to him. The whole group burst into laughter.

• The joke quickly spread. During warm-ups, forward Dale Davis topped his recently shaved head with a red headband.

• Then Rip Hamilton and Chauncey Billups, who did not play, each offered Ben a headband.

• Finally, Lindsey Hunter wore a headband on the court to give Wallace a hug -- and a little extra grief.

Link (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070107/SPORTS03/701070645/1051)

GG- you can say that if you want. i don't recall asking anybody to believe me; i'm just telling the truth.

go over to the board where i was at scout and check posts dating back to last year. i said the very same things THEN that i'm saying now. my position hasn't changed because he's left. it's been consistent throughout and i'm mature enough not to harbour any bad feelings against him.

so no- your claim that i'm saying this purely because he's gone is simply not true. i said it then and i'm saying it now. nothing has changed except now he's not a piston.

also, i was one of the few fans who didn't want us to break the bank for him. i saw what a liability he could be at times. the main reason- the nba is trying to legislate defense out of the game just about, so the value of someone like ben is significantly lower than it was 2 years ago. i HATE that the nba is doing that but it's just reality and we have to/had to adjust to it.

yes, he's still an amazing asset WHEN he is fueled with motivation. but if he is not, he's not near as valuable as he once was and he can be a liability at times in the playoffs, as we so clearly saw. not that he can't do great things but he can't be a 40 minutes a night guy because your offense will stall so bad and the refs won't allow you to play defense enough to hold the other team down. it will become a FT shooting parade for the opposition, as we saw over and over.

again, i am not asking anyone to believe me- i have no bad feelings towards ben. i'm not one of those fans who hates on him now. he got his, good for him. (i still have his jersey!)

he was THE heart and soul of our franchise for 6 years and without him we wouldn't have done half of what we did. but unfortunately he relies so much on his athleticism and as he ages, he will lose that edge. and most of all, as i mentioned beforehand, the nba is becoming so offensive that someone like him is not as valuable as he was before.

i still think he can do great things and really help the bulls. but i think it will prove to be a wise move that we didn't re-sign him. my position on ben has been consistent throughout.

Will Blalock and Flip Murray weren't on the court at the same time, AFAICT, so it's fun to look at their +/-. With Will on the court, we were +4 (and would've been +1 even before garbage minutes after the game was decided), and that was the best individual +/-. With Flip on the court, we were -21, the worst individual +/-.

What is the wage of winning? How much are wins worth? Lots of high paid losers out there (Pierce, Carter) who make the All-Star game. I'd rather have an overpaid winner than an overpaid loser. Capiche?


Is signing Ben for a shitload of money better than not signing BIllups who deserves that shitload of money?

Joe didnt see that, davidson..actually he can fuck himself but Ben is not worth that money. Everyone wanted Ben back but he obviously isnt the 2004 Ben.

Like higher has been saying for the past 2 years, Ben hasn't been bringing the same shit to every game. Not saying, he's inconsistent but Ben needs to be boxing every mofucker alive and swatting everyshot he can. unfortunately, he hasnt been bringing that to EVERY game.

I'd just like to point out that signing billups/ben was never an either/or situation. They could go as far over the cap as they want to retain those guys--it's simply a question of money and willingness to spend it.

That being said, the bulls severely overpaid for Ben and while I don't blame him for taking the money--at all--I'm happy the pistons weren't drinking the same koolaid as chicago.

The Bulls seemingly hit every jumper, so hats off to them.

We should be able to easily get 3 of the next 4 games, in reality, all four should be wins, but we'll probably yak one of them up at least.

Our bench with Jason Maxiell, Carlos Delfino, Dale Davis, Antonio McDyess have helped us to win a lot of games

What about Flip Murrey, coach? :)[smilie=master_emot:

Is signing Ben for a shitload of money better than not signing BIllups who deserves that shitload of money?

Joe didnt see that, davidson..actually he can fuck himself but Ben is not worth that money. Everyone wanted Ben back but he obviously isnt the 2004 Ben.
We could have signed both. It ain't your money. PS&E made a killing when the Pistons were in the playoffs and they had all these guys under budget deals.


Like higher has been saying for the past 2 years, Ben hasn't been bringing the same shit to every game. Not saying, he's inconsistent but Ben needs to be boxing every mofucker alive and swatting everyshot he can. unfortunately, he hasnt been bringing that to EVERY game.
You guys live in a fucking dream world. There are a finite number of elite players in this league. We were in the unique situation to retain one, even if his game is tailing off while being over the cap and without surrendering any talent in return (via trade). Ever heard of vets getting smarter as their skills diminish? Its not like Ben could be counted on to hit free throws 2 years ago either.

You want the 2004 Ben? I want the 2000 Rasheed Wallace. Just because they can't maintain this HOF level of play you judge them by, doesn't mean they aren't greater than Sam Dalemblock, Darko Bitchalot or Nene Hilarious.

You can't go out and find a Ben replacement in FA, not when you are capped out. You're gunna shop from the Nazr Mohammed, Joel Pryzbilla shelf at Cheap GMs R Us.

Forget money. I want to read some bold MFer tell me that Nazr is better than Ben today. Hell, put your nuts on the line and tell me that Nazr will be better than Ben in 2 years.

Forget money. I want to read some bold MFer tell me that Nazr is better than Ben today. Hell, put your nuts on the line and tell me that Nazr will be better than Ben in 2 years.
Nazr is better than Ben

-signed, Nazr's mother.

Nobody thinks Nazr is better (except he's a better scorer). But, having Nazr here has made Max better (Max wouldn't have gotten these minutes with Ben here). I hoped that Ben leaving would also force Sheed to play more agressive and post up now that he's the man down low. That hasn't really happened.

I think we'll be a better team long term by not having Ben. Yes, we could have signed him and Billups long term if Davidson was willing to pay. There is no point debating that. But, Max would have sat until Dyess retires/is renounced, Amir would get no PT (that garbage time would be Max's) either. I think we took a half step back with Ben gone in hopes that we'll take a full step forward with Max and Amir some day.

We are still good enough to win it all, though we'd have a better shot with Ben, that is for sure. If Max keeps developing though, it may not be that long before he provides most of what Ben was, but with a little offense too. I'm not saying Max will be as good a defender, but you never know. He does have the work ethic. And he doesn't bitch like Ben did (which is a good thing for Max/us).

Thank you WTFChris. It is nice to read someone on these boards besides Glenn who is very intelligent and sensitive.

Thank you WTFChris. It is nice to read someone on these boards besides Glenn who is very intelligent and sensitive.

Dad?

Now you know why I always through it to you for those links G.

We could have signed both. It ain't your money. PS&E made a killing when the Pistons were in the playoffs and they had all these guys under budget deals.


You guys live in a fucking dream world. There are a finite number of elite players in this league. We were in the unique situation to retain one, even if his game is tailing off while being over the cap and without surrendering any talent in return (via trade). Ever heard of vets getting smarter as their skills diminish? Its not like Ben could be counted on to hit free throws 2 years ago either.

You want the 2004 Ben? I want the 2000 Rasheed Wallace. Just because they can't maintain this HOF level of play you judge them by, doesn't mean they aren't greater than Sam Dalemblock, Darko Bitchalot or Nene Hilarious.

You can't go out and find a Ben replacement in FA, not when you are capped out. You're gunna shop from the Nazr Mohammed, Joel Pryzbilla shelf at Cheap GMs R Us.

Forget money. I want to read some bold MFer tell me that Nazr is better than Ben today. Hell, put your nuts on the line and tell me that Nazr will be better than Ben in 2 years.

What the fuck do you mean by its not my money. Well no shit its not my money...

If we are going to be paying Ben 12 mil a year when he's 36 and we got to sign guys like CB, Tay(still in a few years) and Rip to bigger contracts, Davidson isn't going to pay to win. I'd rather lose Ben and his heart than to lose a versatile playerlike Tay or a fucking good point in CB. In the end, we'll have less than half our starting 5 and a big rotting center who can use his intelligence.

The last person I thought of joining for our MLE would have been Nazr. Hell I dont even want Nazr. The front office panicked and got a center who can gets into foul trouble. We should have split our MLE for a center the Spurs got(Elson or Butler) and use the other half on Bonzi or someone.

I agree Nazr will never be better then Ben and will never be in Ben's league

What makes Ben worthwhile is 35+ mpg of overall solid (superlative D, ugly O) performance without foul trouble. I think Nazr is about as productive as Ben when he's on the court. The difference is, Nazr can only be on the court for about half the time that Ben can. But, he's only getting paid about half of what Ben is.

The real issue is filling the gap for those minutes Nazr can't play. We have someone who can do most of that in DD, but we're not using him as much as we could be. Heck, even when Nazr doesn't get in foul trouble and is being effective in the game (like he was against the Bulls), we don't play him more than ~20 minutes and don't play our logical other C. Instead, we're running with injured Rasheed or McDyess at C, Tay getting significant minutes at PF against a bulkier man, the same for Rip at SF, and we're be worn down come playoff time.

Butler has played in 4 games this year. Bonzi spent the first 25 games being fat and banned from the locker room. Elson is doing fine (5ppg 5rpg in 19mpg) but just got injured.

Of the four (including Nazr), Elson is probably the best value for the dollars (and he doesn't foul like Nazr, not even McDyess fouls like Nazr) but Nazr was clearly the least risk prior to the season.