It's definitely about time this thread got started. Six games lost in a row? Goodness. Contenders? Pfft.


Bulls 108, 76ers 123

PHILADELPHIA (AP) -- Allen Iverson can still find ways to amaze his teammates.

Iverson scored a season-high 46 points in his return to the lineup and the Philadelphia 76ers led all the way in a 123-108 victory over the Chicago Bulls on Friday night.

After missing two games earlier this week after surgery to remove an abscessed wisdom tooth, Iverson played 45 minutes, went 15-for-30 from the floor, made 16 of 17 free throws, including his first 14, and added 10 assists for good measure. He scored 32 points in the second half.

"He's unbelievable," teammate Kyle Korver said. "He sat out four or five days, had a bunch of turkey, hasn't done anything. He shoots for 10 minutes before the game and comes out and puts up 46 points and 10 assists in 45 minutes."

Iverson had plenty of help as the 76ers snapped a four-game losing streak. Willie Green scored 16 of his 20 points in the second quarter and Andre Iguodala followed a triple-double in his last game with 19 points and seven rebounds.

"Just being in good shape has a lot to do with (being able to come back so easily)," Iverson said. "Playing the game for so many years, you just kind of get used to it."

Luol Deng scored 28 points for the Bulls, who lost their sixth consecutive game and eighth straight on the road. Andres Nocioni had 24 points and 10 rebounds, while reserve Ben Gordon scored 22.

"(Iverson) is very difficult to stop," Chicago coach Scott Skiles said. "He's a Hall of Fame player. We tried zone, man ... we couldn't stop him."

With their star back on the court, the 76ers scored their most points in a game this season. Sparked by Iverson's return and a strong start by Iguodala, the 76ers raced to a 16-4 lead. Iguodala scored 12 points and beat the first-quarter buzzer to put the 76ers ahead 31-24.

Green, who has averaged 19.8 points in his last five games, did his best Iverson impersonation in the second quarter. He knocked down seven straight shots and capped his run when he connected on a 3-pointer with 1.7 seconds left in the half to give Philadelphia a 60-50 lead.

Kurt Hinrich added 18 points for Chicago, but the Bulls were unable to make up for a horrid night by center Ben Wallace. The team's key offseason acquisition played 20 minutes and did not score or grab a rebound. Wallace was pulled by Skiles with 5:44 left in the third quarter and did not return.

"I don't need any explanation for what I do," Wallace said. "If I knew the answer I'd be doing something to change it."

"We needed some rebounding," Skiles said. "We got so far down ... I wanted to go in another direction. He's got to play better, that's obvious. But I don't want it to become the focal point. Let's put the focus on the guys who have been here."

right now obviously ben isnt earning his $. but i'd hold on before i buried the bulls. theyre on their annual november road trip where they never win any games (something like 4-50 over the last 8 years or so). theyll get that turned around soon, you can bet on that. and if they need to, they'll make a blockbuster, or they'll upgrade the coach or something. the bulls have to have that win now philosophy (or giving ben wallace was real stupid/ a big waste).

kinda different than having pennypincher at the helm, who replaced 'win now at all costs' with 'make a profit now at all costs'.

i will say this though. if ben's role starts to diminish in favor of the kids, things will get ugly. we all know how sensitive he is. i'd say he's about the last guy in the league who's ego would let him take a back seat to the young ones. i could see his game falling off completely before he would let his role be reduced.

Wow. Just wow. How do you get goose-egged on rebounds? I can't wait to watch the sparks fly when the fans and media turn on him... as they are sure to do in any town when a maxed out free agent underachieves.

On the other side of that, Iverson found the time for 10 assists on the way to 46 points. Somebody send Kobe a game tape.

Wallace's performance a huge zero (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-061124bullsgamer,1,4416522.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines)
$60 million man has no points, rebounds
By K.C. Johnson
Tribune staff reporter

November 24, 2006, 10:58 PM CST

PHILADELPHIA -- On the Bulls' first two possessions of their ugly 123-108 loss to the 76ers on Friday night, Ben Wallace went one-on-one against Samuel Dalembert, leading to two wild misses.

Just over two minutes later, at the 8-minute-28-second mark, coach Scott Skiles removed Wallace. Wallace didn't re-enter until the 9:50 mark of the second quarter, a span of 10:38.

Wallace also sat for the final 17:44 of the Bulls' sixth straight loss, although much of that was garbage time and the second game of a back-to-back series looms Saturday in New York.

Wallace, who entered averaging 10.3 rebounds, also failed to grab a rebound for the first time since Feb. 17, 1999. That's a span of more than six full seasons and roughly 500 regular-season games.

After the carnage, which featured the most points allowed in Skiles' 242 games as Bulls coach, Skiles downplayed questions on the Bulls' $60 million man.

"I don't feel comfortable putting the emphasis on a guy that's played for us for 12 games, no matter who that guy is," Skiles said. "Let's put the focus on the guys who have been here that should be carrying the team. That's their responsibility. And that is to play the way we play and get the other guys to play that way."

Skiles said he took Wallace out because he wanted to try smaller lineups once the blowout began and he needed rebounding at that spot. Wallace has led the league in rebounding twice.

"I'm not trying to disavow him," Skiles said. "He's got to play better than he did [Friday]. I don't have any problems saying that either. That's obvious to anybody who watched the game. But the point is, I don't want that to become the focal point because all we end up doing is taking the onus off other people.

"That could be one of the reasons we're playing the way we are because everybody is standing around waiting for Big Ben Wallace to do something and protect them on every play. And the guys have to be accountable to their own position and the way they're guarding people."

Told that theory, Wallace shrugged.

"We're all in this together," he said. "We got our own defensive principles that we need to stick to. I think sometimes we get away from it. If the perimeter guys break down, we have to step up."

Wallace played a season-low 19:38. "He coaches," Wallace said. "I play."

Wallace said he had no explanation for zero rebounds.

"Everybody wants to play," Wallace said. "But until my number is called, all I can do is cheer for my teammates."

There wasn't much to cheer about. Allen Iverson tallied 46 points and 10 assists and Willie Green scored 20 points off the bench as Philadelphia topped the century mark with a whopping 9:25 remaining.

"We basically can't stop anybody right now," Kirk Hinrich said.

Luol Deng's 28 points led the Bulls, who trailed 13-1 and never led. Philadelphia, ranked 19th in scoring, snapped a four-game skid despite playing without Chris Webber and Steven Hunter.

"I'm seeing things out there that are just very, very bad basketball," Skiles said. "I'm not going to run from that. I'm the captain of the ship. And my team isn't playing well right now. We've got a lot of stuff to work on."

kcjohnson@tribune.com

I wonder what the stones could give up to get Wallace back? lol

Front page of ESPN.com, this is getting good.

I know Ben got paid (he really got paid), but I wonder if 10-20 years from now he'll look back on his decision to leave in a favorable manner.


Big Ben, Skiles play head(band) games

ESPN.com news services

Ben Wallace was the premier free-agent acquisition this offseason, but the Bulls and their $60 million man are off to a rocky start.

Bulls coach Scott Skiles pulled Wallace only 2:02 after tip-off on Saturday because the center broke a team rule prohibiting the wearing of headbands.

A number of assistant coaches spoke with the player on the bench, but he waited until only 2:41 remained in the first quarter before removing the headband. Skiles put him back in the game, but Wallace put the headband back on before the beginning of the second half and was not allowed to start. He relented again midway through the quarter and was inserted in the game.

This latest drama comes on the heels of Wallace going scoreless with no rebounds in only 19 minutes in a loss to the Sixers on Friday night. Skiles was asked if Wallace's attitude worried him.

"No," he told the paper after the game. "I don't know why. I'm just not."

Wallace didn't have much to say either.

"Ask [Skiles]," he said. "Coach makes the decisions. I just play."

Everyone isn't taking these actions in stride, however, especially considering that the Bulls' win over the Knicks on Saturday was their first and only victory on a seven-game road trip. The Bulls held a team meeting after the contest.

"We want to make sure everybody is on the same page," Kirk Hinrich told the Tribune. "Hopefully we will be. Ben wants to win just as much as anybody on the team. He has a track record. He has won a lot of games in this league. He has a championship. We're glad to have him. It's just something we need to work out."

I can already imagine him regretting it... money isnt that big of a motivator

He should wear the goggles and channel Horace Grant if he wants to keep the 'fro or the rows out of his face. The Bulls fans would appreciate that.

You have to imagine that Flip, Dumars, Davidson, etc. are feeling vindicated and laughing about all this over their morning coffee.

He wasn't exactly happy about Flip so it would have been just as bad here. He'll probably get traded to Dallas down the lline.

Wow, fighting over a headband. I dont know what makes me more sad... a team rule about headbands or throwing a temper tantrum about it. If nothing else I can laugh at all the Bulls fans around here.


:) woohoo 500 :)

I heard McCoskey this morning and he said that Skiles will likely be the one to get fired because the whole team can't stand him.

This certainly comes off as a power play by Ben to get Skiles fired.

It sure makes you wonder how much Ben had to do with all of our coaches getting canned.

Not that we haven't already talked about it, but if Ben was the one most responsible for the firing of our coaches, that only makes him more impressive in my eyes. Carlisle needed to go, so did Brown. Sucks we got stuck with Flip, but oh well.

A team rule against headbands? That's worse than the Yankees requiring Damon to get a haircut. How can you outlaw headbands? That is just stupid. What next...ban mouthgaurds, wristbands, hightop shoes?

Skiles is terribly jealous of anyone with hair and has also outlawed combs, gell, and shampoo in the Bulls locker room.

An update


Updated: Nov. 27, 2006, 10:45 AM ET
Report: Bulls' Wallace feels singled out by SkilesESPN.com news services


Ben Wallace reportedly feels like he's being picked on by Bulls coach Scott Skiles.



Wallace
League and team sources told The Chicago Tribune that Wallace feels singled out by Skiles' rules against pregame music, headbands and Wallace's tape-free ankles.

The situation came to a head on Saturday when Skiles pulled Wallace only 2:02 after tip-off against the New York Knicks because the center broke a team rule prohibiting the wearing of headbands.

A source close to Wallace told The Tribune that the big man is annoyed by the headband rule because he wasn't informed about it until after he signed his four-year, $60 million contract with the Bulls.

Bulls general manager John Paxson is expected to address the situation Monday after the team's practice.

Sources told The Tribune that Wallace became angered early in training camp when Skiles enforced his rule that the team tape their ankles. Wallace never taped his ankles in Detroit and sources told the newspaper that Wallace had trouble running with his ankles taped and sat out most of the practice.

Sources also told The Tribune that Wallace has had run-ins with Skiles over listening to music before games in the locker room.

The latest drama comes on the heels of Wallace going scoreless with no rebounds in only 19 minutes in a loss to the Sixers on Friday night.

Wallace didn't have much to say after Saturday night's game.

"Ask [Skiles]," he said. "Coach makes the decisions. I just play."


Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-061126bulls,1,542975.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines


What's Ben thinking? Wallace's frustration finally rears its head

By K.C. Johnson
Tribune staff reporter

November 26, 2006, 9:00 PM CST

The frustration behind Ben Wallace's insubordination Saturday night has been brewing since the first week of training camp.

According to league and Bulls sources, Wallace has felt unfairly singled out by team rules that have taken away his pregame music, his headband and his tape-free ankles.

General manager John Paxson is to talk Monday after practice about Wallace's breaking a team rule by wearing a headband in Saturday's victory over the Knicks. However, Wallace is expected to miss practice because he needs an MRI on his right wrist and fingers after injuring them in the second quarter in New York.

Wallace played after the injury, which neither he nor coach Scott Skiles addressed in New York. Paxson hopes similar solidarity will ensue once this public dispute fades.

Sources said Wallace became upset early in training camp when Skiles enforced a team rule to tape ankles. Wallace never taped his ankles when he played for Detroit.

Wallace left practice to get his ankles taped and, unaccustomed to being constricted, had trouble running and sat out most of the practice, the sources said.

Less than a week later, Wallace hooked his MP3 player into a docking station to play music in the locker room before the first home exhibition game. Asked then if he now allowed pregame music inside the locker room, Skiles said he was unaware any was playing.

By the next home exhibition game, Wallace had headphones connected to his MP3 player. The headphones hung from a hook in his locker, with the volume turned up so loudly that music clearly emanated from them throughout the locker room.

Several people within the organization, including players, theorized Wallace was marking his turf for what perhaps was an inevitable clash between two strong-willed men.

Skiles even addressed such a dynamic during a one-on-one interview earlier this season. He talked about minor clashes he'd had with coaches as a player and, at the time, called such give-and-take "healthy."

Skiles acted unconcerned then about a similar scenario happening with Wallace, who hasn't played pregame music loudly since the regular season began. Skiles underscored that calmness late Saturday when he said he isn't concerned this latest issue would have lingering effects.

Still, Skiles considered the issue serious enough to conduct a 25-minute team meeting after Saturday's game to stress unity. Wallace didn't apologize for wearing the headband, according to two people present at the meeting.

Skiles, who gave his team Sunday off, declined to discuss the reasoning behind the Bulls' no-headband rule. It's not uncommon for professional sports franchises to impose such rules.

George Steinbrenner doesn't allow the Yankees to wear facial hair. The Knicks demand players wear suits while traveling. And White Sox and Bulls Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf, who is believed to be behind the no-headband rule, asked catcher A.J. Pierzynski and Joe Crede to get haircuts during last spring training.

What annoyed Wallace, a source close to the player said, is that he wasn't informed of the no-headband rule until after he signed his four-year, $60 million free-agent deal.

Bulls management considers itself to have minimal rules. Most just seem to have rubbed Wallace the wrong way, which could be manifesting itself in his uneven play.

Despite Skiles' consistent public insistence throughout training camp that Wallace's transition has been seamless, the coaching staff is perplexed by his occasionally listless play. That's why Skiles didn't criticize Wallace going one-on-one against Samuel Dalembert on the Bulls' first two offensive possessions Friday night in Philadelphia, leading to two wild misses.

In fact, Wallace might get more touches in an attempt to jump-start his defensive play.

Wallace, who is expected to be fined, still talks regularly to his former teammates in Detroit. His history with coaches there isn't great. He clashed last season with Flip Saunders and had a deteriorating relationship with Rick Carlisle before Larry Brown replaced him.

Less than three weeks after being hired in 2003, Skiles uttered this classic quote in regard to a standoff with Eddie Robinson: "I've never lost a battle of wills in my life. And I don't plan on doing it now."

Wallace, who called himself "stubborn" in the preseason, clearly viewed his decision to wear a headband as payback.

With Wallace signed through 2010 and Skiles through 2009, the task is for these two to find compromise or, at least, some common ground.

What a diva!

It's like a relationship. When you're with the girl, love blinds you. When you dump the girl, reality shocks you. When your friends finally get to pile on the shit about her, the indesputable facts mortify you.

the ankle taping mandate is real strange, imo. you might get used of it, but not playing with that for as long as Ben has...i almost understand that Ben would be frustrated with it.

the headband thing is ridiculous. ridiculous that the Bulls wouldn't allow him to wear it and ridiculous that it's a big deal to Ben.

btw, that MRI on the right wrist......remember the story that blamed Ben's worse that shit free throw shooting on his often-dislocating wrist?

Skiles is a fucking idiot and Ben is prolly a pain in the ass, at times, to coach.

Hope the 2 enjoy a long miserable relationship.

Could this be the thing that re-cements Ben in the hearts of Pistons fans? (taking the Bulls franchise down for the next 4-6 years).

I think he's a double agent.

Blakely


Chauncey speaks out about Ben Wallace

Even though Ben Wallace is a rival now, Chauncey Billups said the two talk everyday.

And as you can imagine, the issues that Wallace is having with his new team in Chicago, has become a hot topic of discussion between them.

Here's some of what Billups had to say after Monday's practice about Wallace and the problems he is having with the Bulls.

"It's tough, and I feel for him," Billups said. "I talk to him all the time. I know he's frustrated. I know he's highly frustrated. But y'all know how Ben is."

Yes, we do.

He can be moody for no apparent reason, and if you're preaching something he doesn't want to hear, he can tune you out quickly (Flip Saunders, and now, Scott Skiles can attest to this).

When something isn't being done the way he thinks it should be done, he has a way of drawing attention to the issue like he did when he refused to go back into a game last year in Orlando; or when he seemed to lead the choir of Pistons who, in their own way, made it seem as though Saunders was the blame for their playoff struggles.

Chauncey was asked about whether the headband incident involving Wallace and the Bulls might have been Ben's way of drawing some attention to matter so that a confrontation of some sort would have to take place.

"I don't know, man. I don't know," Billups said. "You gotta ask him, man."

But then, Billups came clean.

"I know, but I ain't going to tell you," he said. "You gotta ask him."

The thing that's most disturbing about what's happening now is Wallace's play. No matter what was going on, no matter how bothered he was by something, he never let it interfere with his play.

Because of that, his teammates and coaches often looked past his momentary mood swings because, at the end of the day, Wallace showed up when they needed him most.

In Detroit, he always had people around him who looked out for him, even when he didn't necessarily deserve it.

And that's part of the problem he's having in Chicago.

He has had a full training camp and about a dozen regular season games, but it's pretty clear that nobody on that team has his back now.

The players don't.

Paxson doesn't.

And Scott Skiles ... puh-lease!

When Wallace was in Detroit, he took for granted the fact that he was surrounded by players, coaches and team officials who treated him like family, often going out of their way to insulate the public from his sometimes petty, self-serving ways.

Rarely did they say much about how difficult he could be at times to work with.

Of course, that all came to a head during the playoffs last year, and now it has become a major problem in Chicago where Skiles and his team rules (most of which, by the way, have nothing to do with the way the game is played and everything to do with his need for control) are definitely having an impact on Wallace's poor play.

"For the most part, he (Wallace) don't bother nobody; just do what he do," Billups said. "When he finally does say something, you know that he's finally gotten to his boiling point."

And all indications are that Wallace is extremely close to loosing his patience with an organization that isn't nearly as embracing of who he is, as they led him to believe they were.

Two words for you, Ben -- too late!

His contract makes it nearly impossible to move him anytime soon, and I gotta believe even if they could, the Bulls wouldn't. Despite the problems, Ben is still their best bet at breaking through in the East.

Here are a couple more odds and ends from practice today. ... the practice was ran by lead assistant Terry Porter. Head coach Flip Saunders took an extra day off, and will rejoin the team for tomorrow's practice. ... Richard Hamilton did not practice, but instead spent time with strength and conditioning coach Arnie Kander. His left knee has been giving him some problems for the past three or four games, but not enough to where it would prevent him from playing. ... Lindsey Hunter got some treatments after practice for his right ankle, but like Hamilton, it won't limit him for Thursday's game at Miami.

Blakely is a shill.

And how the hell does he write that garbage on his knees? I am so sick of the Pistons beat writers trashing every player who leaves the team.

I mean, why doesn't ASB write some more dumb shit like Flip Saunders is a PG and Nazr Mohammed will open up the offense.

Ben is a major pain in the ass. Skiles is holding back the team with his "Who is your daddy?" games.

This is good for Pistons fans, but bad for Wallace. And I still like Ben because I'm not some bandwagon ass groupie. He made this team respectable again after years of disappointment.

I believe Flip Saunders was a pg @ UMin.

I'm with Uber, I don't like seeing Wallace do poorly nor do I like the pilling on that Detroit writers are and will definately be doing in the future.

^most of them are just reading what the Chicago writers are reporting and rehashing it.

To Blakely's credit, at least he talked to someone.

I believe Flip Saunders was a pg @ UMin.
My bad, I meant Flip Murray.

The Ben Wallace propagada is fucking low class. You don't see the SA Express-News writing about Nazr and how he can barely stay on the floor in Detroit. Maybe because they are focused on a title run, not PR spin.

Bulls coach Scott Skiles also has embarrassed Ben Wallace during practice several times. He has stopped practice on occasion to make him tuck in his shirt. He has ordered him to tape his ankles for practice, which Wallace never did because of the discomfort caused by bone spurs on his feet. Skiles also came into the locker room early in the season and made Wallace turn off his music. Wallace since has listened to his music through headphones, though he has the volume turned up so loudly that it still can be heard throughout the locker room.

The Ben Wallace propagada is fucking low class. You don't see the SA Express-News writing about Nazr and how he can barely stay on the floor in Detroit. Maybe because they are focused on a title run, not PR spin.


McCosky's defending Ben FWIW.

:mccosky:


Big Ben's blues

My prediction, if anybody wants to recall, was that the Ben Wallace-Scott Skiles relationship could blow up by Thanksgiving. I was off by one day. Skiles yanked Ben out of the game early on Friday, and kept him on the bench for more than 10 minutes. He might has well have kept Ben on the bench the rest of the game for all the production he got out of him -- 20 minutes, no points, no rebounds. It was the first time in over 500 games that Ben failed to grab at least one rebound.

Now, before I go on, understand that all is not lost there. Both Ben and Skiles have to find a way to make it work. There is too much at stake for both. They both know that, and I suspect they will work it out. But it's been rocky and it's going to be rocky.

The NBA game has downsized. There is a premium on quickness and scoring. Ben Wallace can effectively guard players of all sizes. But Ben doesn't score. And these days, teams can't get by playing four on five. That was part of the conflict last season with Ben in Detroit. It is inevitable that there will be more cases where Skiles feels he has to combat small-ball, or double-digit deficits, with his five best scoring options (if he can even find five scoring options with that crew). Ben is going to have cut him some slack on that and go quietly to the bench.

The Chicago media isn't about to accept that -- a part time role for their big free agent signing. No way. The headlines are already making snarky references to the "$60 million man." You know Ben hates that. He's Mr. Blue Collar, everyman, just trying to feed my family guy. To be viewed as an overpaid underachiever, oh my goodness. That has to be eating him up. But paying a guy $60 million isn't going to make him a different player. Ben is still Ben, and Ben is never going to be an offensive threat. That shouldn't be a news flash for anybody.

Is Ben unhappy in Chicago? Yes, he is. He's not throwing in the towel, but the transition hasn't been pleasant. When Skiles and John Paxson came to Ben's house over the summer to make their recruiting pitch, Ben asked Skiles point-blank if there was anything he needed to know about him, his coaching style or his personal preferences. Skiles told him no, he loved Ben just as he was. But the minute Ben signed the contract, Skiles pulled him aside and told him that he could no longer wear the headbands and arm bands that had been his trademark in Detroit. Strike one.

Skiles has also embarrassed Ben during practice several times -- stopping practice to make him tuck in his shirt and ordering him to tape his ankles (which Ben never does) -- silly power-trippy things like that. Strike two.

And now Skiles is yo-yoing him in and out of games -- the ultimate indignity to Ben. Strike three? Nah, probably just a foul tip. Like I said, there's too much at stake for Ben to blow it up this quickly. But, these are not fun times in the Windy City.

By the way, if you read this and think I am gloating over Ben's struggles, you are dead wrong. As I have said before, Ben is and always will be one of my favorites. I don't have any problem saying that. He was as straight-up and solid a pro as I've ever covered and I miss him. I am not, nor are the Pistons players, coaches and front office personnel, rooting against Ben Wallace. It's just that, well, him clashing with Scott Skiles, early and often, was about the most predictable thing in the NBA this season.



More Ben Blues

If you get a chance, check out my colleague and friend K.C. Johnson's story in the Chicago Tribune today. Seems like Ben Wallace has drawn the battle lines against Coach Scott Skiles. Wallace, in defiance of Skiles' team rule prohibiting headbands, proudly wore a bright red one at the start of the Bulls game at Madison Square Garden Saturday.

Here's KC's description of the events:

One night after Wallace played a season-low 19 minutes, 38 seconds, Skiles removed Wallace just 2:02 after tipoff for breaking the team rule. First, assistant Ron Adams went to talk to Wallace. Fellow assistant Pete Myers, Wallace's closest confidant, followed suit. Finally, assistant Jim Boylan, Skiles' right-hand man, visited him. And, still, the headband remained.

When Wallace finally removed it, during a deadball situation with 2:41 left in the first quarter, Skiles called for Wallace to re-enter. He did so with 1:45 left in the first quarter and played 14:36 in the first half, grabbing four rebounds. But the trouble didn't end there. Wallace slipped back on the headband just before second-half play was set to start. Skiles immediately sent Malik Allen to the scorer's table before play started. When Wallace again removed the headband during a timeout with 5:46 left in the third, he re-entered just 81 seconds later.

The good news is, the Bulls won the game. But Ben doesn't seem to be backing off his stance. And neither does Skiles. This isn't going to end well -- my guess is it won't end well for Skiles. Playing silly power-trip games with respected veterans seems rather self-destructive to me. Stay tuned, right?

My bad, I meant Flip Murray.

The Ben Wallace propagada is fucking low class. You don't see the SA Express-News writing about Nazr and how he can barely stay on the floor in Detroit. Maybe because they are focused on a title run, not PR spin.

I agree with you mostly, but comparing Nazr to Ben is a little silly. Ben was the face of the city - loved by everyone. Nazr is a throw in center. I think the Pistons are plenty focused, the Detroit media is who's making the noise.

You know if Duncan left they would be doing the same thing.

skiles is toast. what is he thinking? 60 million prize free agent trumps damn near every coach every time. he was on borrowed time anyway. just another notch in ben's belt though. no doubt he's a coach killer. hell, if ben was a few years younger flip would probably have been ousted too.

since we haven't heard from the local media yet, McCosky blogs away:


Mon, Nov 27, 2006 at 4:56 PM
Chris McCosky
More on Ben (http://info.detnews.com/pistonsblog/index.cfm)

Hope you aren't getting tired of all the Ben Wallace posts, but I am betting most of you are as intrigued by this as I am. The deal today was this: Ben took an MRI, he's got a sprained right index finger and a bruise on his right wrist. They are listing him day-to-day. The Bulls fined Wallace for insubordination, but they won't reveal how much. Skiles and Paxson met the media in Chicago and I will send some of those quotes here, courtesy of the Chicago Tribune. Ben didn't practice and he didn't talk to the media.

Here's what I think is at the root of Ben's frustration (other than Skiles' silly power-trippy rules). It's starting to hit Ben that he isn't the player he used to be. All the miles have taken a toll on his legs. If you watch him play, the explosiveness is gone. He can't jump as high and as quickly as he did two years ago. Teams are onto this and they are attacking him without fear. He is no longer the imposing force we all knew and loved. Can he get it back? Yeah, some of it. But I don't think he's going to be the same guy. Even if the physical part of it came back, with the way the games are called now, he still couldn't play defense like he did in 2004. Realizing your skills have diminished, that's the worst moment for a professional athlete. I really think it's playing a part in his acting out so much. I think if you read some of Paxson's comments, he alludes to that.

This isn't a complete transcript, just some highlights....again, courtesy of the Trib....
SKILES

Does this undermine you?

Not really. We have a handful of rules that revolve around how guys present themselves and being on time. That's about it. I don't look at it as a personal attack on me.

Why do you think he broke the rule?

We talked about it after the game. That's nothing I'll go into publicly. We had a long team meeting. But it's not appropriate to reveal what's said behind closed doors. I don't look at this as any earth-shattering event. Things always pass. My instinct is this is not going to have any great effect.

Why aren't you worried about this festering?

I look at it like these things are inevitable. This happens in pro sports. There are things that come up, believe it or not, that you guys never know about. This just happens to be one that got out. I can't predict what's going to happen. But I don't think there will be any longterm ramifications. I've been in the league for 20 years. For some people, just being on time is very restrictive to them. To me, that's common human decency. Everybody has a different standard. I think it's all relative. It depends on what you personally believe in. This is something we believe in. Tuck your shirts in. No headbands. Be on time. THat's the gist of it. I don't think that's anything out of the ordinary.

Can you look at this any other way than it being a direct challenge to you?

If I thought that's what it was, I can still say I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. That could end up being a good thing. Two kids can fight on the playground when they're 8 years old and then they become best friends. I don't think conflict is always a bad thing. Sometimes, it's a good thing. If you can resolve it and other people can see two guys resolve it, it's a pretty basic thing.

What is point of having a team captain if he doesn't support you?

That's a good question.

PAXSON

Opening statement

I feel kind of silly, actually, discussing headbands. Every Sept, Scott and I sit down and go through our team handbook. When I got the job, that wasn't eliminated right away. For those of you who remember, we had guys around here wearing them around their necks, sideways. At that time, we wanted to set a different tone. We adopted that rule. It's not meant in any way to stifle anybody's individuality or creativity. It was just simply part of a structure we were trying to create. The first time any of us were aware Ben had an issue with it was when he took the floor the other night. I've had a chance to sit down with Scott and I spoke on the phone with Ben for a good portion of time. I told him the only thing that's a problem is the way he made his feelings known. That obviously comes across poorly. That's what we have to address. We have rules. We don't have too many. Every team does. I think this is something that's been brought to our attention. I'm going to sit down with Ben again. I don't expect this something to cause our team to fracture, which is always something you worry about.

Team captain, expect more from him?

We brought Ben in to be a stabilizing force for our team, bringing experience and the mentality of toughness and rebounding and defense. Those are things I have talked to him about. And I'll talk to him again about it. I feel badly that this has happened. And it comes on the heels of us not playing well, too, which is my biggest concern. I plan on getting this thing settled. It has to be. I can't allow it to fracture our team and I don't think it will.

Why hasn't Ben played better?

I'm hoping it's just from the change. He doesn't have the same cast around him that he was comfortable with. That always takes time. When Ben and Scott and I talked before the contract was signed, Ben agreed with a lot of the things that we talked about and the way we try to do our business. That was never an issue. As far as playing, I'm hoping he gets comfortable with what we're doing.

Headband a manifestation of deeper issues?

That's something we have to try to get to. I'm going to try to talk to Ben again and see if there's something more to this than just the headband issue. Ben was larger than life in Detroit. He created an image and persona there that people really gravitated towards. That's one of the reasons we went to get him. And he's a good basketball player. His strengths are real strengths in this league. Maybe the change hasn't settled in yet. That takes time.

Do you have good line of communication with Ben?

I get answered. I've tried to be as open with players as I could possibly be since I've been here and understand where they're coming from. We have to be a little careful in terms of changing something for one player at this kind of time. If I knew this was going to be an issue a month or two ago and Ben had expressed that to us, that might've been a way to handle it. Right now, we're in a tough position. We have the rule for the right reasons. The lines of communication are fine. When I called him yesterday, I left a message and he called me right back. I feel I can talk to him. All I ask is that any player be up front, honest and tell me what's on their mind. If it can be corrected, it can be corrected. But not everything can be.

Has he expressed any regrets to you about signing here?

He hasn't said anything to us. But that goes back to the change thing. I know this very well: When you play with a group of guys for a long time, especially when you win, there's a bond there that is difficult to break. It's difficult to maybe get by.

Did his history with coaches concern you?

Part of my job, part of the coaching staff's job is to massage guys a little bit and get out of them what we need to get out of them. Did I expect this to be a perfect thing? Nothing's perfect in this business. Coach-player relationships are always tough. If you try to appease the player, you get run over. If you hold such a hard line that there's no flexibility, you come off as a guy that's too difficult to play for. The fact is we have to address this now. We've started that process. Our relationship is fairly new. But Ben doesn't strike me as a guy that wants to disrupt what a team is all about. He's been a part of too many good teams that have played together. He's still a guy that we are totally counting on. We want him to get acclimated and comfortable and playing at a high level. Obviously, we still think he can do that.

i do think that this will blow over in Chicago and Ben will start to play better again. from what i remember, he usually bounced back well from bad games or slumps. maybe his wife needs to yell at him or something.

i also do think that Ben probably missed Detroit right about now. he's gone from icon and fan-favorite to scapegoat and prima-donna status.

^most of them are just reading what the Chicago writers are reporting and rehashing it.

To Blakely's credit, at least he talked to someone.


:mccosky:
Skiles and Paxson met the media in Chicago and I will send some of those quotes here, courtesy of the Chicago Tribune.


:mccosky:
This isn't a complete transcript, just some highlights....again, courtesy of the Trib....

Good stuff aside from the McCosky freelance 2nd paragraph. Thanks for telling us your answer without any support regardless that its completely outside of the quotes your whole post is about.

Is it just me or are Paxson's allusions to Ben being over the hill nowhere to be found in his quotes? The only thing I can see that he might be talking about is the following:


Why hasn't Ben played better?

I'm hoping it's just from the change.

That's not exactly alluding anything specific.

A little quid pro quo as the Chicago writers turn to :mccosky: (aka "Writer") for guidance and more importantly, soundbytes.

Another forum for McCosky to say "I told you so".

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketball/151732,CST-SPT-pist28.article


Writer: Pistons back Big Ben

November 28, 2006

There's enough activity in Detroit's sports universe to eclipse the headband controversy of a former Pistons star, but Ben Wallace's head games with the Bulls have not gone entirely unnoticed.

''The players are really supportive of Ben,'' said Detroit News beat reporter Chris McCosky, who covered Wallace's six seasons in Detroit. ''They feel badly for him.

''Ben's called Joe Dumars and Chauncey Billups regularly.''

McCosky said there is no sense of amusement among the Pistons, even though Wallace left Detroit for a four-year, $60 million contract.

''There's no gloating here because he left,'' McCosky said. ''They love him. They understand he had to leave to take the money.

''They've been to war with this guy for six years, and they won an NBA title with him. So it's not like when Allan Houston left on bad terms and they wanted him to fail.''

The feeling in Detroit was a Wallace feud with Bulls coach Scott Skiles was a matter of time.

''The thing is, he's clashed with every coach he's ever had,'' McCosky said. ''Nobody is surprised he's clashed with Skiles. That was the most predictable thing in the NBA this year. I wrote before the season that this would blow up by Thanksgiving. I was a day off.

''But the money was all that mattered to Ben at the time. It was the first and last major contract of his career.''

McCosky said he doesn't think Wallace is telling friends he wishes he didn't sign with the Bulls.

''He's not saying that,'' McCosky said. ''If you can turn back time, maybe he would think it through, but he's not giving up on Chicago.

''If it goes bad, he knows it's on him. He's very smart, and he knows he'll take the blame. He's the new element, and he's going to try to make it work.''

By Roman Modrowski

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-061128bullswallace,1,7012684.story?track=rss&ctrack=1&cset=true

He never said this much shit after the stunt he pulled in Orlando.

More chipped-up bones... he's too strong for his skeleton.


Wallace: I'm not sorry
Has ligament damage, chipped bones in right hand

By K.C. Johnson
Tribune staff reporter
Published November 28, 2006, 12:20 PM CST

Speaking for the first time since the Bulls fined him for wearing a headband, an unrepentant Ben Wallace said he consciously broke team rules but wants to move forward.

"I knew that we weren't allowed to wear the headbands," Wallace said. "If you know the rules and break them, you expect to be punished. I can't try to put myself above the team or anybody else and wear a headband like I did. I'm man enough to take the punishment. But I'm not sorry."

Wallace was blunt when asked why he wore the headband on Saturday night in New York.

"I just felt like wearing it," Wallace said.

Wallace chuckled when told the Bulls are using his image while wearing a headband to promote the team. He added that he hoped general manager John Paxson would consider changing the rule.

"I would hope they'd look at it and see we have a great group of guys here and that shouldn't affect the way we play," Wallace said. "I would hope they'd look at it and see there's no harm done in wearing a headband. Then again, it's their rule. They make the calls."

Wallace said he doesn't regret signing with the Bulls. He admitted that he's not feeling comfortable yet, which is contributing to his inconsistent play and his constant conversations with ex-Detroit teammates.

"There are times I'm used to doing things and having my teammates play off me," Wallace said. "We're not at that point yet. I can't be as aggressive as I want. Guys don't really know my tendencies. I can't put them in a bad situation by being overaggressive and they don't know what I'm doing. As we play more and get to know each other better, we can step outside the box.

"Anytime you don't win, you talk to your friends and it's a different conversation. It's just that we need to win games. I think if you win games, everything seems to be better. Your meal tastes better. Your trip to practice rides better. Your car rides smoother. Your music sounds better."

Wallace said ex-Pistons teammate Clifford Robinson helped him start his practice of wearing a headband.

"He told me I should try it and that's a reminder not to let my head get too big in this league," Wallace said.

Wallace said he has ligament damage and chipped bones in his right hand, which is more serious than the Bulls' release of a sprained right index finger and wrist contusion following Monday's MRI exam.

Still, Wallace said he planned to play Tuesday night against the Knicks.

"I'd like to win more games," Wallace said. "But that's part of this business. You can't win them all. You just have to go out and get the ones you can get. Hopefully, you can make adjustments and get better as a team."

He never said this much shit after the stunt he pulled in Orlando.
I imagine he did. They just never wrote it because he was a cash cow.

Superhero Wallace. Get your Afros! Get your Bobbleheads!

I'm watching tonights game (Knicks I think) and normally I wouldn't. So maybe its all just for ratings and to sell tickets. Truth is, that sometimes something like this will get the team to play better. Who knows?

Ben's looked pretty good in what I've watched so far.

He woulda looked better with a head band. He caved.

This guy takes it too far:



Sportsticker Pro Basketball Notebook
By Chris Bernucca PA SportsTicker Pro Basketball Editor
It doesn't matter if Ben Wallace wears a headband, a tuxedo, a dog collar, a feather boa or a tutu.
It doesn't matter if Scott Skiles criticizes him, benches him, fines him, suspends him or fights him.
It doesn't matter if Chicago Bulls vice president John Paxson trades Wallace. Nor does it matter if NBA Players Association executive director Billy Hunter and a phalanx of fellow players come to the support of Wallace. None of that matters.
What matters is that Wallace is perhaps the most overrated player in NBA history, right up there with Dave DeBusschere, George Gervin and Tracy McGrady. And the Bulls are stuck with him, at least for a while.
It was ironic that Wallace missed practice Thursday with a pain in his neck, because that's what he has been for the last week. Since this space last was filled, Wallace has played his worst game in eight years, twice defied Skiles by wearing a headband and exaggerated the extent of an injury.
A week ago in Philadelphia, Wallace had zero points, zero rebounds and zero blocks, his first triple-donut since 1998. While Wallace grumbled his way through an explanation, Skiles did not single him out.
"I just don't want that to become the focal point, because all we end up doing is taking the onus off other people and that could be one of the reasons we're playing the way that we are," the coach said. "Because everybody's standing around, waiting for big Ben Wallace to do something and protect him on every play."
The following night in New York, Wallace tried to rediscover his missing mojo by wearing a headband, a direct violation of a somewhat quirky team rule - but a rule nonetheless. Wallace began both halves with the headband and received a benching, again spitting out short answers afterward.
The team rule was instituted several years ago, when Eddie Robinson and Eddy Curry wore their headbands askew. Wallace reportedly knew about the rule before he signed with the Bulls this summer.
That didn't stop Hunter and a handful of civil libertarians disguised as NBA millionaires from coming to Big Ben's defense. Skiles - who during his days as a player in Orlando once went after Shaquille O'Neal in practice - wasn't budging.
"The guys have a chef making them lunch, and they don't touch their bag from the time the bag guy takes it until it gets to their hotel room, and they fly first class and they get paid millions of dollars," he told Chicago reporters.
"They get a hotel room downtown on the day of the (home) game if they want one. They stay at Ritz-Carltons (on the road). I would say that so much is done for the players that less than a handful of things we require back should be followed."
Wallace emerged from his funk to collect eight points, 12 rebounds, two blocks and two steals in Tuesday's win over the Knicks - the only team the Bulls have beaten since November 11.
The Bulls are 5-9 and tied for last place in the Central Division, where they were expected to contend. After leading the NBA in field-goal percentage defense the last two seasons, they are 27th this season, allowing foes to shoot 47 percent.
"We have not committed to that yet this year, really," Skiles said. "I feel like at some point we will. When we will, we'll start winning games. Until we get that straight, we're gonna lose."
Wallace is no longer in Detroit, where fans already sated by a title adored his muscle-and-hustle game that fit perfectly among a starting unit with talented playmakers at the other four positions who could make him look good.
In Chicago, Wallace's four-year, $60 million contract makes him - unfairly or not - the missing piece to a championship contender. And he is in way over his headband.
Wallace is averaging fewer points (5.8) than Tyson Chandler (5.9), whom the Bulls traded to make room for him; fewer rebounds (9.4) than Rasheed Wallace (9.6), who is now playing some pivot for the Pistons; and fewer blocks (1.6) than Darko Milicic (2.2), who was his caddie in Motown for 2 1/2 seasons.
In his career, Wallace has averaged 6.6 points, 10.7 rebounds and 2.2 blocks, shooting 48 percent from the field and an embarrassing 42 percent from the line. He has won two rebounding titles, one blocks title and four Defensive Player of the Year awards, which somehow has qualified him as the second coming of Bill Russell.
Just so we're clear here, Russell averaged 15.1 points and 22.5 rebounds while shooting 44 percent from the field and 56 percent from the line. They did not keep blocks when Russell played, but ask anyone who saw him and they will tell you he averaged at least four per game.
And how many Defensive Player of the Year awards do you suppose Russell would have won?
If that is an unfair comparison, then how about putting up Wallace against some other defensive-minded centers such as Wes Unseld (10.8 ppg, 14.0 rpg, 0.62 bpg), Alonzo Mourning (18.2 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 2.8 bpg) or Dikembe Mutombo (10.5 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 2.9 bpg)? All three of those guys also made shots and free throws much more frequently than does Wallace.
The reality is that Wallace's numbers aren't much better than those of Mark Eaton, the former Utah Jazz behemoth who averaged 6.0 points, 7.9 rebounds and 3.5 blocks while shooting 46 percent from the field and 65 percent from the line.
No one ever talks about Eaton as a Hall of Fame player. Why does Wallace warrant such reverence?
Wallace has done his damage during an era when the importance of the center has gradually decreased to the point where some teams don't even use one. Despite his four All-Star berths, he is a glorified role player whose impact is at just one end of the court. And no matter how big the impact, it produces zero points for his team.
And now it is clear that Wallace is capable of a different type of damage. In Detroit, he butted heads with Rick Carlisle and last season undermined Flip Saunders when he refused to re-enter a regular-season game and openly complained when he was pulled late in playoff games for - what else? - his inadequacies on offense.
Now he is running the same game on Skiles, one of the league's few coaches who is not afraid to call out his players in public.
"I'm not trying to disavow (Wallace)," he said last week. "He's got to play better. ... I don't have any problem saying that, either."
There has been plenty of scuttlebutt about the Bulls making a move for Kevin Garnett, who may become available if Minnesota continues its malaise. Other options could be Portland's Zach Randolph or even Philadelphia's Chris Webber, whose contract becomes very favorable a year from now.
But it has become obvious that the Bulls spent unwisely this summer. Paxson gave superstar money to a vastly overrated role player who cannot put the ball in the basket, which is what his team really needs. After all, isn't that the object of the game?

What an idiot using Wallace's career numbers and comparing him to Russell. Who the hell has ever said Ben Wallace may be the greatest player in the history of the game?

Ben is a joke...I said it here last year and got assassinated for it...I still feel the same.

He's one expensive joke.

What an idiot using Wallace's career numbers and comparing him to Russell. Who the hell has ever said Ben Wallace may be the greatest player in the history of the game?
I know a guy who's done that.

I've never heard anyone rating Ben that high. He was one of the best in the NBA for a few years. That's it. Many said if he could continue it for a few more years he'd be one of the best defenders all time, but not overall players.

I don't think Ben was ovverated as a player. But he overestimated his longevity with that type of style. Everyone on here knew he could not play that way and maintain that high level as he gets older. I didn't think he'd have this many problems this fast, but most of us aren't that surprised.

Citing Ben's career #s when he started out as a 12th man is disingenuous.
At least cite his #s as a starter.

People really need to pipe down on this Ben Wallace deal. To me it was a brilliant move on his part to do what he did.

Mark my words, the bulls will very soon rescind their silly rule about the head band (probably after the all-star break) and in the ultimate display of team unity the entire team will start a game wearing a head band. Even if this doesn't happen they are a tighter group because of it.

I hate to break it to everyone but the Bulls are a MUCH better basketball team than the pistons. They will finish with a better record than the pistons and go farther in the playoffs. They have a legit coach that makes players accountable on the floor for their play and doesn't give minutes to guys just because they are starters or are getting paid big bucks. They are deep, play hard all the time and will only get better as the season progresses. I'd kill for Scott Skiles to coach the pistons over that dipshit we have.

Being a pistons fan since the day zeke was drafted all of this was difficult for me to say. I hate the bulls with a burning passion.

I agree that the Bulls are still going to have to be reckoned with.

It's still going to be a three team dogfight for the division, IMO.

I think headbands are over used, almost passe.
I want to see players with combs stuck in their hair and showercaps playing the game.

Ben continues to play badly. 0-1 from the field and 5-12 form the free throw line against Toronto. He had 11 boards and 5 blocks on the positive side but also 3 turnovers. I'm happier every day that we didn't sign him. 18 games in and I think he is approaching bust status for a max deal player.

i got no beef with those numbers. i'd trade nazr's mediocre play for some rebounds and blocks all day.

Most of Ben's rebounds came in the 4th quarter, when the team needed them.

Do you think Ben will make the all star game at all?

He is 4th in RPG for centers in the East behind Howard, Bosh and Okefor.
He is 16th in PPG for the same group.
He is 9th in BPG for the same group.

Even Darko has more PPG and BPG than Ben.

I say he doesn't make it. Especially since Shaq always gets some votes too.

Ben's not making.

At this point Id take Jerm over Ben..if Jerm wasnt injured all the time

ben has been fine. he's top 20 in blocks, steals, and boards, while playing just 33 minutes a game. if he doesnt elevate his game, he'd have to be a disapointment, but i think its been overblown so far.

Ben with 15 pts, 15 rebounds, 2 steals and 5 blocks so far in the third against the Sonics tonight.

He finished with 15 pts/20 rebs/5 blocks. That is solid.

He finished with 15 pts/20 rebs/5 blocks. That is solid.

he was pissed because I said he wouldn't make the all star team

Holy shit. Check the box from tonight.

27 rebounds...holy fuck.

fuck...thats fucking crazy!!!

hes getting 23.5 fucking rebounds in 2 games.

Okay, somebody 'splain to me why Paxson is trying to acquire Camby.

They already can't score in the paint, and while a Ben/Camby frontcourt would be hella good on D, they'd struggle to put up 12 points between them every night.

Strange.

(unless he's thinking about trading Ben, that is)

hes not trading ben, and if hes trying to get camby its because he's stupid.

you just gave away a young caby in chandler, presumably so you could acquire a superstar--iverson. wtf is he thinking?

Big Ben, PG? 15 rebounds, 8 assists tonight in another 48 minute effort.

Da-yum!

he even knocked down a couple must have free throws. he's starting to look comfortable out there. there was a stretch tonight where the bulls went to ben 3 out of 5 times.

where are those people who said nazr was better than ben? hopefully they gave up on basketball and moved onto another sport.

Of course, I have to wonder just how many 48 mpg games he can play before he flatlines in the playoffs, especially against a big-ass C.