OK, i know it's ridiculously early in the season and we have a new cast of characters we're trying to mix in.

but seriously- blow this team up already. well not completely. but take whatever draft picks and expiring contracts you can for sheed. and billups if he's not going to stick around.

if we want to struggle to make the playoffs and get into the 2nd round each year, then keep the team as is. but if we want to build for another title, we need to make a drastic move or 2.

if we're going to tank any year, THIS is the year to do it. i'm not seriously suggesting we purposely lose, as i know players don't care about draft positioning, etc. but really- this is looking like it might be one of the most top heavy drafts in nba history, assuming some of these college freshmen declare.

a lottery pick assures us of a really talented kid with a ton of potential. we need an athletic stud who can create his shot and get to the hoop- we pretty much have NOBODY who fits that description right now.

we are a mismatched team with no identity. while we try to find it all year long the rest of the nba is coasting past us.

no, we're not finished- we're a long way from it. but seriously- this team is not going to win the title or even get to the conference finals like this.

i wish we could somehow acquire another 1st round pick or 2 so we can get some REAL talent on this team to help reload.

we had better entertain all offers leading up to the deadline in february so we can get some picks in an effort to right the ship. IMO damn near everyone should be considered for trade.

i'd rather detonate the coach rather than the team.

i'd rather detonate the coach rather than the team.

QFT

I could say so much more but Ill leave it at that, and Ive barely even seen any Pistons bball this year.

i agree- hunter should be cryogenically (spelling?) frozen until the playoffs, IF we ever get there.

he is only going to be effective in playoff-type basketball. regular season is a horrible time for him to be playing those minutes.

i would rather watch blalock making a few mistakes and developing than to see hunter playing then. and i LOVE lindsey.

we seriously need to just let some of these kids (j-max, amir, and blalock) get some minutes. we're not going anywhere to begin with.

but learn from someone like phil jackson- you can mix these inexperienced kids in with our starters from time to time, give them a few minutes here and there of MEANINGFUL playing time, and you wouldn't hurt your team if you do it right.

man, flip needs to go and we need to make any and every player available on our roster and start over. this is not going to work.

why the hell did we even sign mohammed? whatever abilities he DOES have are being wasted with the way we're 'using him'.

we need to win the lottery.

I hate to say this Higher but I don't think we're trying to win anymore titles.

I remember last year when Ben threw the hissy fit about us playing garbage ball, many were confused as we were winning. Now its pretty clear only Ben gave a crap about defense on the team.
4 of the same 5 starters and the Pistons are a vacuum cleaneer, sucking and blowing at the same time.

Oh, please.

Ben's departure doesn't mean the other starters suck on D.

It's coaching, it's work ethic, is lazy bullshit.

All those things can be fixed without any fucking input from Ben Wallace

I'm hoping this shit stops soon

Etroit Basketball............where has the D gone?

Is it Flip? Did Ben really mean that much? Is it lazyness?

all of the above [smilie=thumbsdown.:

Saunders needs to go. Hire someone new, and if the team still is playing like a bunch of ass cats, blow this shit up and start over.

I broke some stuff out of the Hornets game thread that wasn't related specifically to that game into this new thread.

These are larger "big picture" issues being discussed.

i think i'm in the boat that is ok with losses as long as we're developing the bench.......but i hate what i'm seeing on the floor: lack of hustle, lack of gritty play, and lack of urgency.

i hate to give these guys any passes....but i really do think it's a huge adjustment to play without a defensive monster like Ben in the middle. we're struggling to find chemistry (and FlipS is struggling to find it with his player substitutions). maybe its like the Heat last season struggling most of the season to find chemistry, only to find it at the end. with the talent on this squad, i really can't believe we're a sub-500 team like our record indicates, Ben or no-Ben.

yes, i made a Pistons/Heat comparison. i'm going to go vomit now.

i think i'm in the boat that is ok with losses as long as we're developing the bench.......but i hate what i'm seeing on the floor: lack of hustle, lack of gritty play, and lack of urgency.


I hate this myself. we are losing and we're not developing the bench. Some nights they are playing (and usually contributing too), and other nights they don't play at all (besides Dice really).

Why can't Flip play these guys consistant minutes and let them work out the problems over the course of the year?

Oh, please.

Ben's departure doesn't mean the other starters suck on D.
no it just means that they dont care about it. which will leave the same result in the long run. :(:mccosky:

i think i'm in the boat that is ok with losses as long as we're developing the bench......
we didnt even do that last night IMO.

I remember last year when Ben threw the hissy fit
Will our team leader Mr. Mayor, who's best buds with the coach and wants to be everyone's friend, be able to motivate? So far, most signs are negative...

Detroit needs some doctoring

By Allan Houston, ESPN.com

When I was playing, a common line was, and still is, "It's early but …"
And we all know we have to avoid letting that "but" get too big.

This now seems to ring particularly true for the Detroit Pistons, who on Wednesday lost to the visiting New Orleans/Oklahoma City Hornets 100-99, falling to 3-5 on the season. Last season the Pistons started 8-0 and were almost invincible on their home court.

You can say, "but they lost Ben Wallace, and the rules have changed in the last two years" and then forget how this team became a champion in the first place: getting defensive stops.

Not much of that happened at the Palace of Auburn Hills Wednesday. Look at the final play of this game: Hornets rookie Hilton Armstrong, having just made the go-ahead free throw with his 17th career NBA point (all scored in one night), crashed the boards and swatted the ball free on the rebound of his second free throw.

Ben would have grabbed that board. Surrendering offensive rebounds killed the Pistons in this game, a 19-8 advantage for the Hornets. On a night like this, one would think having Wallace, now the man in the middle in Chicago, would have helped them.

But it's more than just his absence that looks different about Detroit.

The changes in Detroit's approach were noticeable last year, with the rule changes that favored speed over size, and the arrival of offensive-minded Flip Saunders. Even before Wallace left, that defensive identity wasn't as strong as it was when Larry Brown was there.

The Pistons are looking indecisive defensively. When you're indecisive, that can be the difference between winning and losing -- that half-second of indecision in the NBA allows hungry players like Brandon Bass and Armstrong (subbing for the injured Tyson Chandler and David West) to have a big impact in a game.

I can't put all these changes on coaching styles. The NBA's overall move toward smaller lineups means more Rasheed Wallace at the five, Tayshaun Prince at the four and a team more spread out on D. When Detroit dominated, it went big. But now you can't play the big lineup the whole game. And Rasheed isn't used to being the center on defense.

So, how does Detroit adjust? In the short term, the Pistons need to try to emphasize defensive rebounding -- that's going to allow them to get out on the break and get those easy baskets.

The Detroit mind-set used to be about getting stops. The Pistons will need to get more rebounding from their smalls to make up for the loss of rebounding with Ben.

One thing you see is some of the better teams in the East, like the Cavaliers and Heat, stumble against teams they should beat on paper. It also shows what I see as increasing parity in the league.

Early on, the better teams can look ahead to where they're going to be at the end of the season. This can be dangerous, because every game is important. Especially in trying to get home court in the playoffs.

It's like if you're jogging and you look in the distance, you trip over something right in front of you.

Detroit probably will still be one of the best teams in the East because of its experience and its greatness at multiple positions. However, like many other teams, the Pistons have to avoid looking too far ahead.

ESPN analyst Allan Houston played the first three of his 12 NBA seasons in Detroit before retiring in 2005.

honestly, some might call me crazy for saying this but i don't think it would be much different if ben was here either.

ben was not the same player last year either. sure, he did win DPOY by default but ALL YEAR long while we were winning games and cruising, i was pissed about our lackluster defensive 'effort' and our poor rebounding and the number of offensive boards we were giving up, plus the ridiculously low number of points in the paint we were getting. i knew that lackidaisical attitude we had and those weaknesses would get us killed in the playoffs.

but since our offense was clicking and we were winning, we didn't pay any attention to those things. and that happened WITH ben on the team. i don't imagine it would be a whole lot different with him here now. i lost count the number of times he did not attack rebounds or play defense like he used to last year.

looking back now i think his attitude was "screw it, nobody wants to do the dirty work anymore anyway, so i'm not killing myself doing it anymore".

that attitude has permeated through our whole team and it's hard to pinpoint who exactly to blame, but a lot starts with flip. the player i would blame most is sheed, as he does play hard a lot of the time but his attitude much of the time is that he's already won his title so he doesn't have that hunger anymore.

all our guys seem to play that way. we should have AT LEAST 1 more title, probably 2. we had the best team in the nba for 3 years and got only one title to show for it. i guess that's just a product of today's player's attitudes to everything.

it disgusts me but i don't know what else can be done except to get rid of these guys and bring in a young, athletic, HUNGRY cast of kids who WANT IT more than these guys do. that is why we're getting beat so much- other teams WANT IT more than us.

that's why they beat us to loose balls, why they beat us to the offensive boards, why they kill us inside.

complacency has set in like a vicious cancer with this team and is leading to complete apathy. nobody really gives a shit anymore. sure, they talk a good game like they do. but nobody has that fire or desire anymore. they're happy to punch their timeclock in and out, pick up their paycheck and go home and polish their one championship ring.

it's sickening.

HOnestly, I think its due to the lack of fresh new blood on the team. Everyone has a ring, people just wanna get paid.

HOnestly, I think its due to the lack of fresh new blood on the team. Everyone has a ring, people just wanna get paid.

I agree. I say that we trade Chauncey before he bolts and we get nothing (like Ben) and we also trade away Sheed. He just isn't consistant enough and seems to be even more of a distraction this year. We should get some decent players and/or picks for those two and that would open things up for our youngsters to get some pt. Then we will have several picks in a nice deep draft to look forward to.

Here's an interesting trade idea:

Detroit trades Billups, Sheed, and Delfino to Memphis for Gasol, D. Stoudamire, and Gay. Gasol is out for a while which is the only way that I think memphis would consider it.

It’s a multitude of problems that mainly, of course, can be attributed to our coach and his decision makings.

1. He has issues with rotations and substitution patterns that became very obvious in the playoffs last year (and were also a fixture in his decision making in Minnesota). Last year it was Mo Evans playing important minutes in big games down the stretch while starters sat in the 4th quarter with under 6 to play. Every game it’s something new. This past game we as fans were subjected to hunter and flip murray with the ball in their hands with under 2 to play.

2. He still doesn’t know who should be guarding whom. Kind of like when Prince would not be assigned Lebron or Wade in the playoffs last year (that was given to Rip). That’s just plain dumb. That has not changed.

3. He’s not playing his key 4 starters less (in fact when he played prince and billups over 40 minutes against the lakers when they were up by 20+ in the second half with a game the next night against the warriors is just plain bad coaching) he’s merely splitting Ben’s minutes (and nazr apparently) with the bench. The same key 4 starters will be overused this season and burned out. Nothing has changed from last year except the pistons no longer have ben to burn out as well.

4. Small ball. Just because the league says this is the “wave of the future” doesn’t mean you have to practice it. Many people play small ball because they don’t have the bigs on the roster. Also, flip usually only does the small ball thing when the other team initiates this process (like Sacramento…New Orleans, etc.). Flip is a reactionary coach meaning he makes decisions based on what the other team is doing rather than exploiting the mismatches the pistons bring to the table. He also only does the small ball thing by playing tayshaun at the 4 and rotating murray, rip, Chauncey, delfino and Chauncey at the other 3 positions. He has yet to try Maxiell at the 4 and prince at the 3 when attempting to go small. And he has yet to come out of a time out with the ball and his bigs on the floor to take advantage of his size when teams go small ball. Horrible.

5. Jason Maxiell. The pistons lack motivation and energy. Here’s a guy that gives both AND had the best pre-season and now he’s being punished by a lack of playing time. He should be THE integral part of a small ball lineup because of his ability to play the 4 and get to the basket. He’s a mismatch for the opponent. Supposedly he doesn’t play normally because he’s too small to guard the 4. Well, he’s not too small when teams go small ball. Plus this would then permit prince to stay at the 3 and exploit the obvious mismatches he brings to the table. Rip stays at the two…etc.

There’s a lot going on with the pistons this year and much can be attributed directly to the decision making of our coach. He’s bad. REALLY bad.

I agree with all your points yargs. I really can't understand why he does #3. Our bench has kept us in a lot of games (or gotten us into games that our starters come out flat). I can't understand why he won't use them more. Every damn year we hear about how he wants to get the bench involved more, yet every year he ingores them and overworks the starters. I just don't get it. They've been productive (basically Dice was the only one shooting poorly), play them.

yargs- good points all around. i wish i could make our substitutions because i could do a much better job than flip. i think my 6 year old nephew could!

the lakers game is an example of how stupid he's been since he got here. i was screaming for him to make some substitutions but apparently a 21 point lead wasn't enough. and like you said- forget that they had already logged heavy minutes and we had the 2nd end of a back-to-back the next night.

He wanted to see how tired he could make our guys i guess!

what a complete jackass. i think there is more wrong with this team than just him, as we need some more athletic guys who can do more off the dribble. and we need more guys who WANT IT as our guys have grown complacent.

but flip is the worst thing to happen to this team in YEARS. :(

Really, I'm just astounded at his apparent lack of knowledge of our guys. It seems silly and arrogant for us to sit on here claiming we know the team so much better, but it really seems to be the case. There's experimenting with the line-up to see and gelling different chemistries of lineups and there's just bad coaching. I hate the idea of Maxiell, or anyone, as being undersized. Quit looking at the ideal size for a position and look at results. You know who else was undersized? Ben. And Barkley. And Brand. And. And. And. And.

Seriously, take a step back and put out the guys who work the hardest and produce and morale and chemistry follow.

many times i would prefer to see amir and blalock out there than mohammed and hunter.

yes they are very young players and inexperienced. but in short doses they could help us more than the other 2. the rest of the league is letting young players play and we're trying to give vets every minute possible- to the detriment of our team!

Blakely


Pistons' leadership a problem

The Detroit Pistons have problems defensively, which we all expected when Ben Wallace left. But there's an even greater void that I'm not sure this team is up to filling -- his leadership.

The reason why Chauncey and Ben worked so well together as co-captains was because they each took a uniquely different path to asserting their leadership with the team.

Chauncey was the politically correct one, never one to call out a teammate or coach publicly. Ben, as we all know, made it known to any and all if he wasn't happy about something.

Rip and Tayshaun, who are both talented players, are too much like Chauncey when it comes to leadership. They'll say all the right things, put up good numbers but rarely will they put themselves - or their teammates - on Front Street.

You need a guy or two like Ben who, from time to time, has the courage to call out his teammates - and every now and then, his coach. It's not a coincidence that some of Detroit's most inspiring performances in recent years, came after Wallace called out his teammates. But you have to balance that with calling yourself out and acknowledging when you don't get the job done, which Ben didn't do as good a job at 'fessing up to in his last season than he should have. That's when tension starts, which was one of the factors in Detroit's postseason demise last season.

Yes, there is an adjustment period for this team defensively with Ben gone, and they're obviously in the midst of that now. But to put their struggles solely on that, and a lack of on-court communication, ignores the most noticeable intangible this team lacks with Ben gone, and that's his leadership.

I thought Ben's "tantrums" were negatives. Now they're the key to what made the team good?

I thought Ben's "tantrums" were negatives. Now they're the key to what made the team good?

http://www.smddrums.com/woodcell/straws.jpg

It took me far to long to catch on to that. Well played Glenn.

the absence of wallace is not the cause of our problems. nor is it a solution. our problems are much greater than ben IMO.

I just scanned the topics in the NBA forum's front page and I had to laugh.

You'd think we're the Knicks or something.

We're talking about:

--Chauncey leaving

--Tay's upset about small ball

--Nazr's unhappy because he's not playing

--Everyone wants Flip fired

--Dale Davis trades

--Our fans are getting banned from the arena for starting brawls