I am looking at other message boards and on espn and people are making a huge deal out of this. Rogers said it was a clump of dirt, but in no way did that look like dirt

big deal/little deal.

cards picked up on it right away, so no affect on this game, and A and yanks didnt pick up on it either, so he didnt cheat those games.

but he did try to cheat, it appears. pretty big deal. i hope he's allowed to pitch in game 6.

is it true, that this "clump of dirt" was captured on video during his games vs. the Yankees and A's?

btw, for the record, what exactly does pine tar do to give a pitcher the advantage?

btw, for the record, what exactly does pine tar do to give a pitcher the advantage?
better grip.

but he won't be banned from playing. Also after they removed it he still pitched like a mad man. So I doubt it becomes an issue if he pitches good in his next start. Just clinging to more news by espn i think.

The league official even said it was no big deal, so whatever.

At least Kenny isn't the only one, Todd Jones weighs in on pine tar (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_26_229/ai_n14702169) from last year:


I pitched in Denver for two years, and at a mile above sea level, I used pine tar every time I pitched at home. My thinking was that I was more than 5,000 feet in the air and was entitled to at least do that much. I never thought one thing about it. Was it cheating? My numbers say no, given that my career ERA at Coors Field is 7.64 in 59 games. It's very dry in Denver, and that makes the baseball slippery. I needed the tar to hold onto the ball. I didn't want the ball to slip and hit a hitter. At least, that was my thinking. I never considered it cheating; I was breaking even.

Last week in Anaheim, the Nationals asked that the glove of Angels reliever Brendan Donnelly be checked before he threw a pitch, and he subsequently was ejected for having pine tar in it. Sounds like an inside job to me, and perhaps Frank Robinson was tipped off. You can draw your own conclusions. I have played with guys who scuffed or used pine tar and then we've been on different teams the next year. I have been told in so many words that if a former teammate gets checked, then that player will retaliate. To me, that means, "Hey man, you didn't mind me scuffing or using pine tar when we were teammates, so don't rat me out now." And it's left alone on almost every occasion.

I've been around pitching coaches who teach how to scuff or use pine tar. There's actually an art to scuffing, and there are two fatal errors guys make. The first: They scuff too often. To get away with scuffing, you have to know when to do it. Coaches and older players who have been around a long time know when they see a scuffed ball. So you have to pick your spots. You use it when it's a big part of the game and hope to take advantage of the small window of opportunity before the other team is tipped off. The umpire usually doesn't check the pitcher until the opposing manager asks him to.

The other mistake is making the scuff too big. Don't dig a hole in the side of the ball; just lightly brush the sandpaper across the side. If you want the ball to break left, leave the scuff mark on the right side.

Now that I've told you how to scuff, the question becomes: How much can players get away with in their own clubhouses? It's funny; pine tar is no big deal to players. Everybody uses pine tar. Catchers put in on their shinguards. Infielders put it in the pockets of their gloves so the ball will stick in there. It's almost a basic part of the game. Sandpaper and Vaseline, however, are looked at as cheating. They give pitchers too much of an advantage.

For hitters, boning bats in the bathroom is not considered cheating. Corking, however, is. Guys bone their bats in broad daylight. When a guy corks, he does it in private. If you cork and word gets out, it's bad news. You're a marked man.

Though there might be a difference between scuffing and using pine tar, technically speaking, they're both against the letter of the rulebook. So here's the thing: If you get caught, don't overreact. Have a good time with it until you get caught.

So the decision to cheat is up to you. Kind of like life, huh?

I still can't decide if that was actually pine tar or if was just a clump of dirt, as Kenny says it is.

On one hand, I can't believe that anybody would be that stupid to have pine tar in such a visible place. And I find it even harder to believe that he used pine tar for his earlier two starts and it went unnoticed, yet they were all over him today. But on the other hand, if it really is dirt, how can it be in the same general location for 3 games? And why did the explanations differ so much with regards to whether the umpires actually asked Rogers to remove that substance?

Either way, he performed just as well if not better once he wiped it off his hands. So it shouldn't have turned into such a big deal.

http://espn-ak.starwave.com/photo/2006/1023/mlb_rogers_hands_412.jpg
ALCS on the left, last night on the right

Well the Kornheisers of the world got what they wanted, a storyline.

This thing is already getting overdone, and it's only hours afte the game.

It's going to be all pinetar, all the time, for the next few days.

Too bad for Kenny. He was successfully rebuilding his image and now all those old incidents are going to pop back up in the SportsCenter feature of the day.

I sort of think he would have been better off not completely lying about this one, though.

It's fine if you lie and say it's dirt if no one can prove otherwise, I suppose. But he's saying that no umpire asked him to remove anything from his hand, in fact, none of them said anything about his hand. There are already a bunch of accounts that contradict that, including the ump that is chief of the crew.

Now he looks like a cheater and a liar.

I'm torn on this - maybe it was pinetar, but it wasn't proven so let it go. Pinetar is technically cheating, but 1) it was on a place where the ball doesn't touch. If he was rubbing it on the ball, you would have seen it. 2)He wasn't hiding it at all. If he wanted to hide the pinetar, he would have put it in his glove, where it is near impossible to see. 3) St. Louis fans are whiners. 4) 7 scoreless innings afterwards. 5) The umpire and the opposing pitcher will touch the same balls at some point - did they notice it then?

Mo, I think he was just using it for grip, I don't think it was coming off on the balls.

I understand that - but grip for what? He doesn't throw with his palm. I understand they're saying he wiped his fingers on that smudge, but make that motion with your own hand - it's a little obvious - and it would wipe off after a minute. What I'm saying is - they have 500 camera angles to look at - if it shows him wiping his fingers on the smudge, wouldn't it have come out by now? I just feel like the media wants this to happen because it would give them something fun to talk about.

Not only that - he wasn't trying to hide it AT ALL. If you were blatently cheating, you'd be hiding it every chance you got.

I'm not torn. Its cheating. Its sad. Play by the rules. This is the only time he's been any good in the playoffs, maybe this is the reason. Even if its not, it doesn't matter.

I'm not torn. Its cheating. Its sad. Play by the rules. This is the only time he's been any good in the playoffs, maybe this is the reason. Even if its not, it doesn't matter.

^right, perception = reality

It's too bad this is taking the attention off the team right now.

Gives us something else to discuss at least, lol.

You know, Pudge kicked out the chalk in the back of the batters box. Reports now are he's done this every game in the playoffs. Why Pudge, why cheat? The rules clearly say you can not intentionally remove the line, but you've done it over and over.

They do say in baseball "if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying".

i think bonderman or somebody else just needs to have a monster pitching game to try and push this off the page. It'll seriously better for everybody if the Tigers can put this away in 5 games before Kenny pitches again, with one or two dominating performances.

I don't know whether it was pine tar (it actually looked like he had a case of the runs and didn't have enough TP when he wiped or something), but I doubt Rogers put it there on purpose. It would be pretty stupid to put something there like that where everyone could see it. if he was going to cheat, why not put it on his glove, or the back of his hat where he touches?

Some Cardinals players said that if you high five a guy with pine tar (that had it on his bat), you can get it on your hand that way. it would make sense considering it was on the palm of his hand (plus how fired up Rogers gets).

It didn't look like dirt to me at all. My guess is the ref asked Rogers, Rogers told him he didn't put anything on his hand and that if anything got there it was by accident, and then the ref said you better clean it off to end any speculation. Whether it was pine tar, rosin and dirt, whatever...i think it was accidental, or he would have hid it better than that.

You guys that are thinking this was an accident or a mistake most likely haven't seen the pictures/film from his last few starts.

This was no accident, it's definitive.

He got caught brownhanded.

(sorry)

It was cold. Maybe Rogers' has a wicked bad sinus problem.

I think McCarver and Buck were lying in wait. They knew the pine tar (or dirt) was an issue in the prior series becuase they already had the video footage. There was probably talk of it in the clubhouse. They are St Louis homers. They broadcast it knowing both teams have someone watching the game in the clubhouse. They did everything they could to entice LaRussa to make an issue of it. They basically said he should talk to the umpire during the inning. Fox zoomed in on Rogers hand. Fox was looking for it and tried to influence the game.

But LaRussa didn't take the bait because he knows that if he did, his team would be called on other infractions. The benefit to LaRussa was not to get Rogers out of the game, but to get Rogers to clean his hand. I think it was staged by Buck and McCarver for that reason and I think that is the real story here.

Rogers was lights out after the 1st inning. In fact, he pitched better with a "clean" hand. I think Fox had a storyline and was trying to catch Rogers if they saw any substance on his hand. This wasn't play-by-play, this was a pre-designed tactic by Buck and McCarver to pass information to the Cardinals and influence the game.

That's an interesting angle gusman, and I've given the LaRussa/Leyland relationship a lot of thought in regards to this as well.

Everyone seems so surprised that Johnny Cash, I mean LaRussa, was so willing to just let this go. Do you think that Leyland knows a lot of LaRussa's tactics/tricks that he could expose if it really came to that? Do you think Leyland might even know of some of LaRussa's pitchers that have used pine tar in the past?

And yes, it does suck to have two current/former members of the Cardinals organization calling the games.

How shocking that Fox would be accused of creating news.

from a baseball perspective, he did pitch just as well if not better after he had cleaned his hand. in that sense, it doesn't seem like a big deal.

if you consider his intentions to cheat, the bigger issue.....is pine-tarring that frequent in the MLB? is this a case of "everyone does it" but turns a blind eye? did La Russa not make a big issue of it because he knew his pitchers were doing it? or because of his friendship w/ Leyland?

I understand that - but grip for what? He doesn't throw with his palm. I understand they're saying he wiped his fingers on that smudge, but make that motion with your own hand - it's a little obvious - and it would wipe off after a minute. What I'm saying is - they have 500 camera angles to look at - if it shows him wiping his fingers on the smudge, wouldn't it have come out by now? I just feel like the media wants this to happen because it would give them something fun to talk about.

Not only that - he wasn't trying to hide it AT ALL. If you were blatently cheating, you'd be hiding it every chance you got.

He could real easily do it with his hands in his glove. It's not that hard and in this picture, for example, you can see it on his thumb. You just need a dash for better grip, the stuff's pretty sticky.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4200/152/320/Pinetar2.jpg

I'm not torn. Its cheating. Its sad. Play by the rules. This is the only time he's been any good in the playoffs, maybe this is the reason. Even if its not, it doesn't matter.

EVERYONE fucking does it though. It's just like the greenies. Technically cheating but EVERYONE took 'em till this past year. I guarantee four our 5 Cardinals pitchers do it/did it, probably more cause they're all junk pitchers pretty much aside from Carpenter. It's just one of those things.

I think McCarver and Buck were lying in wait. They knew the pine tar (or dirt) was an issue in the prior series becuase they already had the video footage. There was probably talk of it in the clubhouse. They are St Louis homers. They broadcast it knowing both teams have someone watching the game in the clubhouse. They did everything they could to entice LaRussa to make an issue of it. They basically said he should talk to the umpire during the inning. Fox zoomed in on Rogers hand. Fox was looking for it and tried to influence the game.

But LaRussa didn't take the bait because he knows that if he did, his team would be called on other infractions. The benefit to LaRussa was not to get Rogers out of the game, but to get Rogers to clean his hand. I think it was staged by Buck and McCarver for that reason and I think that is the real story here.

Rogers was lights out after the 1st inning. In fact, he pitched better with a "clean" hand. I think Fox had a storyline and was trying to catch Rogers if they saw any substance on his hand. This wasn't play-by-play, this was a pre-designed tactic by Buck and McCarver to pass information to the Cardinals and influence the game.

I think Larussa did it not so much to get him to wipe it off as to try and get in his head. Rogers is known as a pretty emotional guy and he's been so locked in and focused the last few weeks, Tony just wanted to try and get in his kitchen.

How Kenny Rogers pitched after the first inning is irrelevant to this story. If the Cardinals were "in the know" prior to the first inning or even made the umpires check the hand of Kenny Rogers, he would have been ejected from the game and would not have pitched another game in the playoffs, let along innings 2-8.....if indeed that was pine tar on his hand.

So the real question is why didn't Tony Larussa have the umpires check?

My guess is that he really didn't know about this until after the first inning when it may have been too late since Rogers would have also been notified of what was happening on TV and washed it off.

If Larussa knew about it before the game even started and if it was his friendship with Leyland that deterred him from asking the umpires to check Rogers' hand then why wouldn't he contact Leyland BEFORE the game to have him avoid this ebarrassment?

(unless larussa want to kill two birds with one stone by not getting Rogers ejected and tarring the reputation of Jim Leyland BUT bringing national attention to it in hopes of the act not repeating itself in game 6....if there is a game 6...I still think Tigers in 5)

I personally think Rogers cheated (That was pine tar which is an illegal substance) and got away with it and Larussa opted not to make an issue out of it due to his friendship with Leyland.

Unfortunately for Larussa and the cardinals his decision may have cost him a world series victory. The truth will never be told and this will all fade away.

EVERYONE fucking does it though. It's just like the greenies. Technically cheating but EVERYONE took 'em till this past year. I guarantee four our 5 Cardinals pitchers do it/did it, probably more cause they're all junk pitchers pretty much aside from Carpenter. It's just one of those things.

Yeah, I get that Vinny. And I'm not saying I won't be celebrating if they win it all. But I don't care that everyone does it. Its against the rules. I'm disappointed. And I'm not nearly as impressed with his post-season rebirth as I was. Of course, I'm not much of a baseball fan anyway. I'm not telling anyone how they should react, nor do I want anyone to feel differently just because of how I feel. But everyone cheating doesn't make it better at all, to me.

Traveling is against the rules in the NBA, did everyone get so upset when refs didn't care about that?

That's not analogous. If this were Rogers' perhaps getting away with a balk (roughly analgous to traveling in basketball) I would not be disappointed with Rogers.

Traveling is against the rules in the NBA, did everyone get so upset when refs didn't care about that?

Yeah, that was the best analogy I could think of too or that you can call a hold on almost every play in the NFL.

That's not analogous. If this were Rogers' perhaps getting away with a balk (roughly analgous to traveling in basketball) I would not be disappointed with Rogers.


How about when an NBA player untucks his jersey a bit to feel more comfortable?

The closest I can get with basketball is when a good FT shooter tries to slip in to shoot for a poor FT shooter.

Premeditated deception is actually pretty rare in basketball.

Yeah, big springs on the bottom of shoes are hard to disguise.

That's not analogous. If this were Rogers' perhaps getting away with a balk (roughly analgous to traveling in basketball) I would not be disappointed with Rogers.

I think the point of the analogy though is that this is how little of a deal this is amongst players.

Travelling's technically illegal, yes. Does Tayshaun get a bit annoyed when Wade takes three steps to blow by him? Yes, probably. Will he whine and lobby about it a bit? Of course. Is it a big deal though? No, because it's just kind of an accepted part of the game.

Are hitters annoyed that they can't hit Kenny? Of course. Will they try and get rid of the pine tar so they have a better chance of hitting him? Absolutely. Is it that big of a deal? No, it's just kind of part of the game.

What if a basketball player hacked up a slippery, mucousy, phlegm-strewn loogie and spit it on the ball just before an opposing player was to attempt a game winning free throw?

Okay, I'll stop now.

I would of loved (not really 'cause it would mean a tiger loss) to see how this played out if Kenny had come back, sans the smudge, and just got ROCKED. The media would of gone nuts, Yankee fans would be screaming that they should still be in the playoffs and that there should be a re-do, etc, etc.

Also, what do you think the odds are that Rogers went into the clubhouse bottom of the second and just rubbed same pine tar on the inside of his glove and just kept doing what he was doing?

I think the point of the analogy though is that this is how little of a deal this is amongst players.

Travelling's technically illegal, yes. Does Tayshaun get a bit annoyed when Wade takes three steps to blow by him? Yes, probably. Will he whine and lobby about it a bit? Of course. Is it a big deal though? No, because it's just kind of an accepted part of the game.

Are hitters annoyed that they can't hit Kenny? Of course. Will they try and get rid of the pine tar so they have a better chance of hitting him? Absolutely. Is it that big of a deal? No, it's just kind of part of the game.
That's the same "everybody does it" argument. Knowing that everyone actually playing is just "cool with it" doesn't really change my opinion.

I'm fine with players pushing the rules as far as they can. I'm not cool with crossing the line. That's pretty much it. If I thought a basketball players was trying to break the rules in order to get an advantage, I would (and have) thought less of them. As for the rest of "well what about when ...", if the guy was trying to get an advantage over everyone else by intentionally breaking the rules (no matter the sport ... and I think no matter the rule though there are some dumbass rules in sports, I admit) then you can pretty much assume I think less of that player for doing so.

A quick "Kenny Rogers pine tar" Googling turned up this site, which appears to be a site run by female baseball groupies.

http://itsasecretsohush.blogspot.com/2005/12/mr-rogers-neighborhood-includes-wife.html

From 2004, check out some of the key people involved. Note that Leyland worked for the Cards in 2004 as well.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/baseball/mlb/08/20/bc.bbn.cardinals.tavarez.ap/index.html


Cards reliever Tavarez ejected over grimy cap

Posted: Friday August 20, 2004 6:51PM; Updated: Friday August 20, 2004 8:03PM

ST. LOUIS (AP) -- St. Louis Cardinals reliever Julian Tavarez keeps running into trouble with his grimy, dirt-smudged cap. For the first time this season, it got him ejected.

Tavarez lasted one out in a 5-4 victory over the Pittsburgh Pirates in the opener of a day-night doubleheader Friday. Umpire crew chief Joe West conducted a lengthy inspection of the cap before the eighth inning before tossing Tavarez, who made a flamboyant exit.

First, Tavarez put his arm around home plate umpire Ron Kulpa and suggested the two get a beer after the game. Then he flipped his cap to a fan in the stands behind the dugout on his way off the field.

"He asked me if it was pine tar and it was like 'No, it's just a dirty hat,"' Tavarez said. "Every pitch I throw I touch my hat, just like a lot of guys.

"I asked him if I could wear another hat and he said 'No, you're out of the game."'

West said he was enforcing Rule 802.b, which prohibits foreign substances on uniforms and caps. He also said Tavarez and manager Tony La Russa "as much admitted" it was pine tar on his cap.

"I said, 'Well, Tony, you know he can't have pine tar on his hat, it can't be anywhere on him,"' West said. "By rule, I have to kick him out of the game.

"Do you like kicking a guy out of a game because he had pine tar on his hat? No. If he was using it to cheat, he should be kicked out of the game."

The Cardinals are the sixth team in six years for Tavarez, who played for the Pirates last season. He was disappointed that manager Lloyd McClendon would use such a tactic, and deposited a handful of his clean caps on McClendon's desk after being ejected.

Tavarez also disapproved of the Pirates checking his hat in a game Pittsburgh had trailed 4-1.

"If the game was tied, let's mess with his head," Tavarez said. "It's 4-1, you're 35 games out, you ain't going nowhere, what are you doing? I got a little sad and I just took my hats over there."

McClendon confirmed he was the source of the inspection.

"It was brought to my attention on my bench," McClendon said. "It looked as if there was something on his hat and we just asked the umpire to check.

"We didn't know what it was or anything and we still don't know what it was."

It's the third time this season that Tavarez' cap has come under scrutiny, with the Braves and Phillies also complaining. He started the second game of the doubleheader with a spotless version.

"It will be clean as long as I'm not playing," Tavarez said. "Once I start warming up, it's going to get dirty.

"This is the way it is."

A quick "Kenny Rogers pine tar" Googling turned up this site, which appears to be a site run by female baseball groupies.

http://itsasecretsohush.blogspot.com/2005/12/mr-rogers-neighborhood-includes-wife.html
another reason why you dont do pics when you're up in some other shit. [smilie=blaha.gif]

Any chance Kenny colored his hand with a magic marker to stir up trouble? That would be pretty sneaky, although i'm sure that would never happen.

What makes me think that he didn't put any pine tar there is the fact that he would certainly be busted. You might as well go out there as a WR with duct tape wrapped around your hands inside out. Who isn't going to see that? Cheating is sneaky in nature. This has no element of sneaking too it.

calll me a conspiracy theorist, but here we go.

a couple years ago in a golf major (US open?) tiger woods chipped in a huge birdie, but the conspiracy was that the nike logo on his ball was visible for seconds while the ball teetered on the edge of the hole, giving nike virtually millions in free advertising. i called this immidiatly, and the country soon followed.

i believe we have a similar incident here. kenny rogers pine tar scandal. pine tar scandal. "tar-gate". targate=target, as in the retail chain. this shit runs deep people.

I dont exactly understand what you are saying about the Tiger Woods thing. Are you saying they edited in the NIKE logo??

b-diddy.... NICE!


It just doesn't add up if he was cheating. Kenny Rogers is a pretty intelligent man. A 4 year old would know that if he's cheating, he needs to hide it. Kenny did nothing to hide it. In fact, it was so blatent it's weird. He would put it in his glove if he wasn't cheating.

Why is pine tar so evil, anyway? In my high school and college games, I put a little extra hair gel in because when I sweat it gave me stickier hands so I could handle the ball better. (True story) Is that cheating?

Yes, you're a cheater. Cheater.

we need to pool together some funds and buy some ad space on Kenny Roger's hand. Lord knows every camera in the world will be focusing in on it, in game 6. a little WTFDetroit.com logo would be nice.

Even if it really was pine tar, I don't get why the media is making such a big deal out of it. Unlike Vaseline or sandpaper, pine tar does nothing to physically affect the ball. All it does is give the pitcher a better handle on the ball.

The fact that Kenny was still dominant after the 1st inning should make this a non-story.

Even if it really was pine tar, I don't get why the media is making such a big deal out of it. Unlike Vaseline or sandpaper, pine tar does nothing to physically affect the ball. All it does is give the pitcher a better handle on the ball.

The fact that Kenny was still dominant after the 1st inning should make this a non-story.
only thing that could make it a non story is if espn didn't exist. [smilie=paca.gif]

I likes Esther Baxter....yup

Yes, you're a cheater. Cheater.

Yup. I don't think its the biggest of deals I just think its silly to play it off like "oh, that's not cheating". Of course it is. Did it win the game for them? No. But I'm not gonna act like the dude wasn't trying to cheat and wasn't caught and that it doesn't change how I feel about what he did before. If you don't think less of him, great. But I think less of cheaters, even if its me cheating, even if its only "cheating a little".


we need to pool together some funds and buy some ad space on Kenny Roger's hand. Lord knows every camera in the world will be focusing in on it, in game 6. a little WTFDetroit.com logo would be nice.

That's brilliant.

FYI - They talked to Andy Pettite about it and he shrugged it off basically saying "Shit I do that all the time. I just hide it better."

Say what you want about Kenny losing respect. I think the issue shouldn't be that he's a cheater. It should be why is he so stupid to keep it in plain sight?

Yeah, seriously, I don't think some of you realize the extent that pine tar is used. It's not just a "Hey, everybody does it." It's a "HEY, EVERYBODY DOES IT" Literally pretty much everybody. It's one of those stupid things that baseball just lets go because they never want to say it's "OK" to use any kind of foreign substance because that would just open the door but they know it's used by pretty much everybody and it's for the most part harmless.

Kenny is a dumbass for not hiding it better but that's part of the point kind of: it's so prevalent and so generally accepted, he probably didn't even think too much about hiding it.

Its like complaining that the 2nd baseman wasn't standing on the base as he turned to throw for a double play. I don't dislike the 2nd baseman any more for cheating or respect the game any less, its just the way its played.

Herm, that's another bad analogy. I'd have no problem if it was just a case of the ump missing the call. That shit happens all the time, its not cheating. I don't get all upset when the ref misses a call in basketball, because human error isn't cheating.

Being generally accepted doesn't make it not cheating.

FYI - The Gambler and his "dirty" thumb have been the lead story of pretty much every national sports news radio show I've listened to the last 2 days. Its pretty clear that the story doesn't end with "oh well, none of the players care about cheating".

The only thing I'm really getting out of these "everybody does it" arguments is that damn near every baseball player is a cheater. That's really making baseball look endearing.

It's the lead story because it sells commercials.

Because people pay attention and are interested.

That says a whole lot more about human nature than it does about the use of friggin' pine tar by a pitcher.

Is the media going to talk about it? Hell yeah they're going to talk about it. Two teams in the Series that noone outside of Michigan and Missouri care about? A bunch of players that nobody's ever heard of? Yeah, I think they may discuss the pine tar thing to death.

But that doesn't mean that this is some amazing scandal. "Oh my God, a pitcher's using pine tar? And he's a lefty you say? " Seriously, that's how everyone in baseball is taking this and laughing about it.

Yeah, shame on the public for being interested in cheating. Way to go ball players for yet again not caring if they cheat to win.

I've not called it a scandal. In fact I've already said "I don't think its the biggest of deals". But just because ball players aren't worried about cheating doesn't mean its not important. Nor does it mean that this isn't a case of cheating.

That and the fact that the two St. Louis slappy announcers for this series were just WAITING to use it. These guys talked about it all night - don't be deceived into thinking they're nuetral on the situation. Buck and McCarver are pro-St. Louis and just loved this.

ESPN played this all day long because they want it to be a bigger deal than it is because it gets you to turn to their station. That's why it's been the lead story.

That and the fact that the two St. Louis slappy announcers for this series were just WAITING to use it. These guys talked about it all night - don't be deceived into thinking they're nuetral on the situation. Buck and McCarver are pro-St. Louis and just loved this.
BTW, I think that's also a good topic that hasn't really been addressed in this thread. Unfortunately I'm sure Al Michaels and Mike Tirico think its no big deal so we should probably just ignore it.


ESPN played this all day long because they want it to be a bigger deal than it is because it gets you to turn to their station. That's why it's been the lead story.

I wasn't referencing ESPN since I've been at work all day and don't typically check ESPN when at home if its not basketball season. However, I'm sure that's correct to some extent regarding that channel.

I agree with you that Michaels would have done the same exact thing for pretty much the same reasons. But honestly, I question the drive behind their antics, Fool. Are they doing this "to bring it to the attention of the public because baseball should be pure?" Or are they simply "trying to show that they were the ones that came up with it first?"

Now that they got their wish and made something that really isn't a big deal into a big deal, they've won.

There's a reason that La Russa didn't persue calling Rogers out further (I know you've probably heard it 1000+ times so you don't have to tell me that), his players are doing it too. Pine tar isn't an evil substance - it's for grip in the extreme cold. It wasn't vaseline... or even spit. It was pine tar so his fingers didn't slip off the ball.

The Al Michaels thing was sarcasm, I was relating it to your comment that Andy Pettite didn't care about pine tar to show that that was no big deal.

I agree with your assumption though that Fox was trying to make news instead of just call the game. I think its a very interesting topic to discuss whether the lines should be drawn regarding media and sports. If we assume Fox was waiting for Rogers to pitch so they could pounce, should this sort of thing be looked down on as outsiders affecting the game, like fans interfering with balls in play or perhaps something worse, or is it something to be lauded since they may have stopped someone from cheating in the most important baseball series of the year (if you like, we can pretend they stopped Sammy Sosa from using a corked bat or something like that).

SAMMY SOSA GRABBED THE WRONG BAT! HE USES THAT ONE TO PUT ON A SHOW FOR THE FANS DURING BATTING PRACTICE!

Don't try and bring Sammy's good name into this...

Yeah, shame on the public for being interested in cheating. Way to go ball players for yet again not caring if they cheat to win.

I've not called it a scandal. In fact I've already said "I don't think its the biggest of deals". But just because ball players aren't worried about cheating doesn't mean its not important. Nor does it mean that this isn't a case of cheating.


That's where the fundamental disconnect exists. It's not that they don't care about cheating. They don't consider it cheating and neither do most long-time baseball fans, writers, etc. It's the fly-by-night types that are making this a big deal, the Jay Mariottis, the Skip Baylesses, not the baseball people. Look through all the numerous articles written in the last 2 days. All the long-time baseball people don't understand what the big deal is and all the Dan Wetzels of the world, trying to make a name for themselves, are screaming for an investigation or something. It's sensationalist journalism and it's irresponsible.

IMO the fundamental disconnect is that you believe that since you watch baseball more often that your opinion (or the opinion of others who are better fans or even players) can make intentionally breaking the rules be considered not cheating, while I believe that even though I'm not a baseball fan I'm still capable of understanding that intentionally breaking the rules is cheating.

Everyone cheating doesn't mean that no one is cheating, it just means that everyone is a cheater.

LOL. The reason I've repeatedly said "Real baseball people" or the like is because I think you are having trouble understanding how trivial of a thing this is considered by most, and as a casual baseball fan you would have no reason to really know that.

Yes, technically it's cheating but this takes us back to the whole travelling thing. You, as a hardcore basketball fan have no problem (not No problem I guess but you understand why it happens) with travelling not being called all the time and you don't think it's analagous. You just kind of accept it. But it IS technically cheating, there's no way around that. Wade knows he's getting away with the extra step and he intentionally does it as he should, taking every advantage he can get.

But trust me, if you've ever tried to watch B-Ball with a non-fan who knows NOTHING about it and explain the rules, you will get the question, if they're paying attention, "Hey, I thought you said they could only take two steps, how come that guy just took four?" That would be a natural reaction to someone who didn't know Basketball very well.

Herm, that's another bad analogy. I'd have no problem if it was just a case of the ump missing the call. That shit happens all the time, its not cheating. I don't get all upset when the ref misses a call in basketball, because human error isn't cheating.


.


But this is where you don't get it. It isn't "missing" the call, it's not "human error", its that the call isn't made ever. Same as traveling. Same as pine tar on the mit/hand. It's just ignored despite being a rule.

LOL. The reason I've repeatedly said "Real baseball people" or the like is because I think you are having trouble understanding how trivial of a thing this is considered by most, and as a casual baseball fan you would have no reason to really know that.

Yes, technically it's cheating but this takes us back to the whole travelling thing. You, as a hardcore basketball fan have no problem (not No problem I guess but you understand why it happens) with travelling not being called all the time and you don't think it's analagous. You just kind of accept it. But it IS technically cheating, there's no way around that. Wade knows he's getting away with the extra step and he intentionally does it as he should, taking every advantage he can get.

But trust me, if you've ever tried to watch B-Ball with a non-fan who knows NOTHING about it and explain the rules, you will get the question, if they're paying attention, "Hey, I thought you said they could only take two steps, how come that guy just took four?" That would be a natural reaction to someone who didn't know Basketball very well.

1) How many times must I repeat that I agree that this (this one instance of Rogers' using pine tar) isn't that big of a deal? I'm sure I've done it at least 3 times now, but I fully expect you to bring up again how pitcher X and Shortstop Y (or better yet, Sports Writer Z ) also don't think its a big deal.

2) We've already been over why traveling isn't analogous to putting pine tar on your hand, but I'll repeat it since you've just produced an entire post ignoring why that is a dissanalogy.

Traveling is essentially the same as missing a bag or the pitcher balking. Its an illegal movement or non-fullfillment of obligatory actions (in traveling's case, bouncing the ball) and as such is a violation during the action of play and up for the umpire/ref to regulate.

Putting pine tar on your hand would be analogous with a basketball player rubbing shit on a basketball prior to his opponent shooting a free throw.

3) Even if you want to see this pine tar incident as analogous with traveling I've never said I don't think traveling isn't cheating nor have I said I don't think traveling is a big deal. In fact, I do think traveling is cheating and in one way (a way that hasn't been brought up till now) I think its very analogous to this incident. Both the amount of traveling allowed in the NBA and the amount of cheating (via any sort of equipment doctoring, body enhancement, stealing signs, etc.) are fucking up their respective games.

THIS IS MY WHOLE POINT: No matter why you say it, playing this off as no big deal is the big deal. Why do you think I'm still in this thread? I've said all over the place that I'm a bandwagon fan of baseball and that I really don't care about the sport. Why would I keep arguing over a sport I don't give a rip about? Because its INSANE that you are trying to defend a clear and obvious act of cheating. I don't care how ESPN covers baseball (I wish it wasn't so freaking in love with baseball so they'd play something other than baseball tonight or 40 minutes worth of home run swings, the worst highlight in sports btw, while I'm looking for ANYTHING half-way decent on basketball) or why Sports News is talking about baseball more (outside of wishing they would stop and start talking basketball). I do think that its a joke that you watched a clear violation of the rules and are pretending like it doesn't matter just because its a rule that's violated all the time and its only one of the many rules that get violated all the time. It's the same way with basketball. Palming, traveling, offensively induced contact being ignored, none of those are similar to carrying in some sort of substance on your person so that you can doctor the equipment so that it changes the way you can use it as opposed to how others can use it. But how fans of their respective sports treat them is similar in the respect that people play them off all the time as though its not corroding the game they love so much and then act like they aren't helping make their game worse.

I don't care about this one game or this one pitcher (other than I hope the Tigers win, as much as a non-baseball fan can). I have started to care (since arguing in this thread anyway) about how so many people can be so oblivious to what they are actually doing when they say "See John Kruk doesn't care, so I don't either".

pine tar= carries and traveling in the nba?:inquisitive:

My question is who isn't cheating in baseball in some format if we are getting technical? the list is smaller that one would ever want to believe.[smilie=paca.gif] But much like barry bonds, kenny is meant to be the poster boy for pine tar. because people feel you're a conspiracy nut if you don't believe in the fairness of the game. :tongue2:

either way i'm waiting on the first good sketch comedy parody of this.:grin:




Putting pine tar on your hand would be analogous with a basketball player rubbing shit on a basketball prior to his opponent shooting a free throw.
you mean like that pregame powder for better ummmmm grip? :P

I think its comparable from a baseball perspective, because as you said its not a big deal. Much like traveling really isn't these days. generally though its better to compare it to football players taking ephedra to hype themselves up wth a little extra edge for most of the game. ephedra isnt that big a deal and its funny that it gets bunched into the steroid group only because of korey stringer.

Thats a fair answer Fool, but then the response would be lets do something about this in the offseason.

Can you imagine if in the middle of game 2 of the NBA finals, the announcers interupted their broadcast in the first quarter to repeatedly show over and over how Wade had taken 3 steps? Then had Avery Johnson ask the refs to review the film, then talked about that one play for 2 days as message boards across the internet lit up with discussion on how Wade had cheated?

The game is interpreted by the umpires who were there as it happened, checked it out, decided there was no reason to do anything, same as letting the travel call go. Not a big deal. I have no problem having the refs ask Kenny to wash his hands (getting rid of the "cheating") its the attention laymans are giving it as if they're shocked that we allowed Kenny Rogers to fly those two planes into the world trade center and defend him afterward.

so i say pine tar in baseball=ephedra in football

Is ephedra being overlooked? Serious question, I know they're cracking down in other sports.

Is ephedra being overlooked? Serious question, I know they're cracking down in other sports.
yes and no. If you test positive for it you get a ban. but do players still use it? Most definately in the nfl. if bill romonowski could sneak straight streoids through all those year, ephedra I doubt gets found out about. Unless you're a punter.:tongue2:

My point was that most people didnt and still dont see ephedra as a big deal. but was and is it cheating? technically yea.

Thats a fair answer Fool, but then the response would be lets do something about this in the offseason.

Can you imagine if in the middle of game 2 of the NBA finals, the announcers interupted their broadcast in the first quarter to repeatedly show over and over how Wade had taken 3 steps? Then had Avery Johnson ask the refs to review the film, then talked about that one play for 2 days as message boards across the internet lit up with discussion on how Wade had cheated?

The game is interpreted by the umpires who were there as it happened, checked it out, decided there was no reason to do anything, same as letting the travel call go. Not a big deal. I have no problem having the refs ask Kenny to wash his hands (getting rid of the "cheating") its the attention laymans are giving it as if they're shocked that we allowed Kenny Rogers to fly those two planes into the world trade center and defend him afterward.

Thank you, a much more rational response than I was getting worked up into giving but exactly what I was going to say.

Fool, the point of the analogy as I'm trying to make it is that using pine tar, WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF BASEBALL, is looked upon the same as travelling. It just kind of happens.
I'm not now nor at any point trying to say it's mechanically similair to travelling in basketball but as an infraction, as a case of breaking the rules, IT IS similair in importance (or lack thereof). Basketball players, coaches, fans, etc just kind of shrug their shoulders about travelling. Baeball people do the same about pine tar. NOT A BIG DEAL.

You say that a proper analogy to pine tar would be gunking up the ball but it wouldn't Gunking up a basketball would be such a strange, unique and unprecedented occurence. Using pine tar in baseball is ubiquitous.

My problem is that the media is trying to make a big deal out of it out of their need for a story. Hermy put it very well though. Why is it a big deal? I just don't get it? Why?

I think we've reached a fair equilibrium.

I think that asking why Fox pounced on it like they did or why the media as a whole is blowing up the story is certainly a just question and I'm cool with Herm's response that the answer to my main concern is "fix that shit in the offseason, let the World Series play out".

Guts,

Yes, just like rosin that the players all put on before the game. Like pitchers use on the mound. Except to make the analogy work for basketball it would be tar and not before the game but right before a free throw and only on the hands of the guy shooting.

Vinny,

If all you are saying with the analogy is that "yeah, a lot of fans and players just look the other way on both of them" then fine. I accept that as true.

I still dissagree that its analogous "in the context of baseball". What about my offerings of a balk that's not called or a missed bag that isn't seen? It seems to me that those are much more like traveling then pine tar and it doesn't seem to me that an unseen balk is much like pine tar. You wouldn't say that a guy who got away with a balk or missed a bag was a cheater just like you don't really call Wade a cheater for walking the length of the damn floor before shooting. You say the ref or ump blew it. Now if Wade slipped some shit on the ball w/o the ref seeing it, and you saw it, you'd rightfully call him a cheater. The two acts (traveling and pine tar) are fundamentally different, not because they aren't close in the movements that the players make to carry them out, but because one is argueably an incidental infringement in the middle of the action while the other is a premeditated (he's puts that shit on before the game starts) attempt to willfully break the rules. Maybe Wade does think in the shoot-arounds "Fuck this, I'm walking over this place like Jesus on the water". Then its a lot more similar, but I don't think the dude goes out there with the intention of traveling (maybe because its the sport I love and I'm just being oblivious).

Hows about this?

Albert Pujols is on something.

And we're talking about fucking pine tar.

Seriously though, it's just not that big of a deal, cheating or not. So say it is "cheating." So many pitchers, some of which are beloved by the media, surely cheat with pine tar or other substances. Kenny Rogers' past experiences are what is driving the issue now. Regardless, I agree with the notion of playing the World Series and dealing with the problem afterwards. I say, they change the damn rulebook, because since Kenny pitched so well after washing it off, it apparently didn't help a whole lot anyway.

And Fool, don't tell me you've never cheated on anything.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/tom_verducci/10/25/robertson.rogers/index.html

I hope you're posting that to mock it Fool. Its a running joke by now on Baseball message boards.

That's not unexpected since we've seen what "baseball fans" think of the situation.

I've no problem being outside the majority opinion on this matter.

No, I'm not posting it to mock it.

Super. I'm gonna see if I can find a clip of what Woody Paige said about it on "First and Ten" so we can spark some real intellectual debate.

Or you could explain why its total shit.

Since the main argument against my position was "You don't watch the game. Let's see what John 'I.Q. 180' Kruk says about it". I thought someone with a vote for the hall of fame pretty much agreeing with me was on the mark as far as a response.

Seriously, where are you getting this John Kruk crap from???

Its mocking statements like "everyone in baseball is taking this and laughing about it".

Why are you taking this all so personally?

I'm not taking it personally. I'm arguing a point.

Rogers tackles 'Dirt-gate' talk
Veteran disappointed that attention wasn't on pitching

Kenny Rogers is ready for his close-up, if that's what it comes down to.

He believes things happen for a reason, from the long odds he faced in getting drafted nearly a quarter century ago to the messy final year in Texas that put him on the free-agent market to land with the Tigers. If the "Dirt-gate" controversy from the World Series lingers into this year, if the television cameras fixate on his hand this season, he can take it, he asserted. He has nothing to hide.

"That's OK," he said. "Here I am. Take another shot. I've had a bulls-eye."

Rogers joined the second day of the Tigers Winter Caravan on Thursday, meeting fans and media in town for the first time since the World Series. It was also a chance for him to address the Series' greatest sideshow for the first time since the attention died down. He doesn't know whether it will pick up again come spring, but he's ready for it.

The FOX look at a smudge on Rogers' left hand in Game 2 seemed set as the lasting image of the World Series until the series of fielding errors from Tigers pitchers. The network queued it up after Cardinals manager Tony La Russa went to home-plate umpire Alfonso Marquez and pointed out something on Rogers' pitching hand after the first inning.

Marquez told Rogers to remove whatever was there, and Rogers gave up one hit in seven innings after that. He sent down the Cards, but he couldn't do anything to stop the attention. Only time has halted that.

He's not angry over what happened. It's a different emotion Rogers feels about the hubbub that followed him through the series.

"It's disappointing," he said during a morning breakfast at Comerica Park. "The worst part is that in the first inning, I wiped it off, and then for the next seven [innings] they didn't touch me. It's like, that's not a good enough story, so let's go with this. I never whine and cry when people beat me up, but it disappoints me. They're trying to figure out why I'm able to pitch well, but I know how to pitch. It wasn't about anything else.

"If you go watch how I pitch, watch where the ball's going, it isn't about what it's doing, it's where it's going, where it's located. It's disappointing that some people felt like they could just put their own spin on things. But I wasn't as good as the game before [against the A's in the American League Championship Series].

"Their inability to hit the ball, if you can't hit a 40-something guy, it's your own fault. It's not my fault."

The whole episode was a bizarre end to a 2006 season that saw a lot opponents unable to hit Rogers. His arrival in Detroit turned out to be one of the jewels of the offseason after he won 17 games. He started for the American League in the All-Star Game, then won two memorable performances in the AL Division Series and ALCS while going 23 postseason innings without allowing a run.

In the process, he disproved the notion that his career would fade at age 41. Surrounded by fellow starting pitchers more than a decade younger than him, he not only seemed to have new life, but he felt like he found a home.

"I was so lucky to be able to come here and be with the guys here," he said. "Things happen for a reason. I wouldn't have had that chance [if he hadn't signed as a free agent]. My whole career would've finished and I would've never had that chance, and I'm so appreciative that I got another chance to go out there."

Now 42, he has a whole other age in which to prove himself. Don't look for the same intensity or same velocity every time out that he showed against the Yankees in October, if only because it required so much physical energy against a team he had struggled against with his usual approach. If he's going to repeat his season, it's going to be with the same meticulous, crafty nature that he's otherwise known for.

It's the last season of the two-year contract he signed with Detroit 14 months ago, but it's not a swan song. The way he's going, he has no plans to stop after this season. He wants to keep going, and if the Tigers want him, he'd like to do it in Detroit.

"I know I want to play," he said. "I know I like it here. Without a doubt, this is the place I'd like to keep playing. But that's not up to me. I just go out there and do what I do and pitch."
http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070118&content_id=1782053&vkey=news_det&fext=.jsp&c_id=det