Since everyone over at the SI boards that was on Drew's salami has now puckerd and admitted that they were wrong and that Mr. Henne is the superior QB...

I would like to hear your thoughts over here...

Tre? How do you feel about your leader after A) puckering against ND B) playing like a jackass against Ill. and C) losing the locker room for a second straight year.

It's easy to kick a guy when he's down. Every football player in the world has gone through a tough time or two. Henne cost Michigan several games last year including the ND game on a fumble. Drew is going through a tough time. He will come out of it. Judging a player based on 5 quarters of play is ridiculous.

Next time come with decent post initiating discussion. If you want to talk meaningless shit, go to the terrordome.

No I wasnt coming here to attack you, I was coming to create discussion.

First off Stanton's play isnt what is the joke to me...it's his lack of leadership. People tout this kid as one of the best QB's in the nation and AGAIN this MSU team plays like it doesnt have a leader.

I dont know how you can defend Drew. besides the ND game last year he hasnt done anything against a good opponent.

You say "Henne cost Michigan several games?" Really? That Henne fumble against ND when he was in the end zone? Yeah I remember that play...would you care to remember the Penn State game? That ONE LOSS Penn State team. Would you care to recall MSU in 04? oh but wait...I am sure that Jason Forcier could've won those games..and Henne had nothing to do with it. hell, Carlos Brown could've played QB against ND and Minnesota this year and came out with the W.

MSU has fallen apart, AGAIN. The team has no leader, AGAIN.

Drew is playing wreckless and not helping the team AGAIN.

You ahve a better shot with Hoyer against UM than your Superman wearing #5

It's easy to kick a guy when he's down. Every football player in the world has gone through a tough time or two. Henne cost Michigan several games last year including the ND game on a fumble. Drew is going through a tough time. He will come out of it. Judging a player based on 5 quarters of play is ridiculous.

Next time come with decent post initiating discussion. If you want to talk meaningless shit, go to the terrordome.

Henne didn't cost UM several games last year. Bad coaching and injuries did.

It's interesting that you started this thread Muhme, I was thinking the same thing in my head. Stanton had all the hype before the year and early on this year before the ND crumble, but right now it's looking more and more like Henne is the man.

This is way too long, but if you disagree with me, take the extra minute to read it. I am so tired of bandwagon fans. Those chosen few who change their opinion every week of the season. I specifically remember this topic last year. I remember getting ripped for my opinion. Weeks later after a M loss to Wisconsin and Stanton wowing the nation with his performances against ND, UM, and OSU, the same people that ripped me were coming back to change their opinion. 3 Michigan Die Hards here on WTF came back last year after ripping me and posted one word in the thread, “Stanton.” ( I won’t name names, but I remember) I loved it.

Now, what do ya know…5 bad quarters for Stanton and the flip floppers are out again. I actually think Muhme was the only person who didn’t stray from his Henne opinion. Everybody else did. Moodini you switched to Stanton last year. After the Wisconsin loss last year, I specifically remember you saying, “Henne sucks.” Even better, after wk 1 this year, we were kicking it and you said, “It was typical Henne, overthrowing all of his receivers.” Not exactly glowing praise. I know you didn't just post any bold statements just now, but I'm just saying people need to relax and not go overboard because things change.

Muhme, you asked what Stanton has done. Half way through the season last year after playing against Notre Dame, Michigan, and Ohio State Stanton was averaging 300 yds passing a game before breaking a finger on his throwing hand! You don’t see these things because you are covering Michigan games. You even admitted that you didn’t see him much last year. He torched Ohio State’s #1 D last year. Don’t fault him for his D losing games. He’s proven himself.

Is he having a rough stretch and is he to blaim partially? Yes. But, don’t question his leadership from your couch. The only people that can speak of his leadership are on the sideline with him and in the huddle with him. His coaches and teammates have ranted and raved about his leadership and he has led by example. How the hell do you know what he says in the huddle? Did you happen to see Stanton throwing his body into a Defensive End against ND to free up Trannon for a TD pass? How many potential 1st round QB’s do you see doing that?

If you believe Henne is better, that is fine. But, don’t question a guy that has shown nothing but heart for his entire career!

How many Elite 11 qb’s do you know that are willing to play special teams to help their team win?
How many potential 1st round qb’s do you see in the flats throwing blocks for teammates?
How many potential 1st round qb’s do you see lowering the shoulder for the extra yard? (You might say it’s stupid, I say it shows he has nothing but heart)

You like Henne, fine. But lay off Stanton, in a world of selfish all about me athletes, Stanton is the exact opposite and he shows it.

I don't believe I've ever engaged deeply in this argument. For one, I don't watch every MSU game, and I don't feel like I could rationally make a choice of one or the other. But I will try...

First off, they are both perfect fits for there respective offenses, MSU's Spread and UM's Pro-Style. However I think either could do well in the other offense. Stanton is a very good runner, his instincts when and where to run are amazing, but to me, taking on a linebacker as a QB is selfish and dumb. A lot of people might call it moxie, but I just think a team like MSU can't afford to lose him, like they might this week, and have in the past. He has a decent arm, not great, not bad, and his accuracy is usually pretty good, but I attribute some of that to the system. Stanton has a ton of talent/heart/moxie whatever you want to call it, but just can't stay healthy and that is why I take Chad hands down when comparing the two. Henne had 2-3 brutal, and I mean BRUTAL games last year. But that has really been it for his 2+ years at UM. I don't really care for his queer smiley face when looking at the sideline, but that might be my only beef. He has a NFL arm, an arm that throws 15 yard outs to the sideline with ease, an arm that throws 30 yard post routes on a line, but also an arm that overthrows open players too often. Muhme mentioned something about how Stanton had 'lost the lockeroom' and I haven't ever heard anything like that, but Stanton to me is a more fiery guy. The guy that people rally around when winning, and might get down on when the going gets tough. Henne rarely if ever yells at someone, and for the most part leads by example. That's fine with me because Hart is our vocal leader. Henne has been very accurate this year and in his career (60% as a freshman, 58.5 as a Soph, 62% this year) but I just think it's tougher to complete passes in a pro-style offense like UM's than a spread that gives you so many more options. So after comparing the two, and taking nothing away from what Stanton brings to the table, because I do respect him, I choose Henne.

First off...I am glad you remember I never waffled from my stance.


Next, I spend a lot of time talking MSU and I have spent a lot of time this offseason and season working with them and covering the team (from the looks of it I have to cover their fucking locker room after the game this saturday) and let me tell you Drew has lost the team again. Did the coaches help Drew? No. the coaches hate Drew

it is known that Drew and everyone behind Drew hate John L. And JL didnt even want Drew as his QB.

Tre..I am sure you know this but there is so much BS in that rinky dink football program up there in EL it is sickning.

Let me leave you with this and tell me your thoughts...

What did you think of the teams response when Hoyer came into the game? How they rallied around him. Why didnt they do that for Drew the past two weeks?

I am telling you what...there is a lot of bullshit going on behind the sceens in EL. I dont get to hear most of it but I hear a lot of the whispers. This team is split, bobbys boys vs JL's boys...and it has been for two straight years now.

As a person...Drew is a great guy. I ahve had the opportunity to talk to him a few times and he is great. Nice guy...but as a football player, Ill take Chad Henne every day.

BTW..MOOD is the biggest flip-flopper since John Kerry.

Good posts above. Can't say I'd disagree with any of it, accept I'm obviously a Drew guy. I definately 100% agree that there is crap within the program. You'd have to have something going on to melt down the way they do. I have never heard of people disliking Drew though and I don't know why they would-other than maybe jealousy. In what I observe he seems down to earth and tries really hard to be one of the guys with his tough attitude, etc. However, I'm not a MSU player or coach and appearances are often misleading. I'm hoping that it isn't true and the guys do like him. I looked forever today for an article I read about Drew last year. It detailed the stuff he does off the field for people. I pull for him because of what type of person he is.

Stanton - Henne is like the college version of Payton - Brady. One has more skills, but the other has been consistant and looks like the better leader. Obviously Henne has a better team around him, but all Stanton had to do was avoid a collapse with ND. I think he realizes John L is a joke and he's not the same QB anymore. I think he'll be a solid pro still, but I think he's changed at MSU.

Since everyone over at the SI boards that was on Drew's salami has now puckerd and admitted that they were wrong and that Mr. Henne is the superior QB...


LMAO

You mean that Drew's 5 bad quarters made it easy to admit that Chadwick has been the better player this year, but I'd still take Drew first.

LMAO

You mean that Drew's 5 bad quarters made it easy to admit that Chadwick has been the better player this year, but I'd still take Drew first.

To be determined Saturday.

To be determined Saturday.

Then I can tell you how that'll come out....

Drew plays 1 quarter, maybe a half, and leaves due injury from the fact MSU ran the option 20 times w/ a patchwork O-Line against the best defensive front 4 in the country.

Henne won't have to do much.... TD to Manningham and a pick maybe.

Hart runs nuts because Smeeland sits in a nickel for 3 quarters and never puts a 7th man in the box.

Well...Chad doesnt pucker at the end of games. Drew does. End of discussion.

Didn't Michigan lose 4 games last year in which they were leading heading into the 4th? I don't recall a particular game in which Henne combusted like Stanton, throwing multiple picks to ND, but he certainly didn't stop those collapses from happening (though defensive coordinators and head coaches are rightly blamed for much of all that).

Well...Chad doesnt pucker at the end of games. Drew does. End of discussion.

That's absolutely untrue. As previously mentioned, Michigan lost 4 games that they were up in last year! Honestly, the ND game is the only one in Stanton's career that I can really say he was the reason they lost. I'll take that.

BTW, you act like Henne is this great quarterback that carves up defenses and takes over games. Henne is a good quarterback that just avoids making mistakes. His team is a run-run-run team and he just has to make the solid throws on play action passes, etc.

Henne was exposed last year when he didn't have a WR to bail him out. Braylon absolutely bailed him out as a freshman. Manningham being open by 10 yards on every play is doing the same.

You are ignoring one major fact Muhme: State's entire season rests on Stanton's shoulders. Michigan's entire season rests on Hart's performances and their Defenses performances. Henne has little pressure on him. Give Henne an average D at best and put the ball in his hands for 35-40 plays (passing and running) and see how he does. He wouldn't hold Drew's jock strap.

Henne was exposed last year when he didn't have a WR to bail him out. Braylon absolutely bailed him out as a freshman. Manningham being open by 10 yards on every play is doing the same.


I totally have to disagree with you on this part. Manningham has gotten open for some of those TD's but a good portion of them Henne had to put a perfect touch on the ball. Henne throwing the post in the Minnesota game was brilliant. I will take Henne's arm over Drew's any day.

Stanton haters, remember this:

http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/StatMan/2006/07/19/What_Might_Have_Been_The_Tom_Brady_story


Think back to the 2000 NFL draft, one of the most talent-laden NFL drafts in the past decade. It's ridiculous to consider just how many talented players came out of that draft to make a huge impact on the NFL- Brian Urlacher, Shaun Alexander and Dante Hall, to name a few- but nobody has made a bigger impact out of that 2000 class than Tom Brady has. Six quarterbacks went before Brady in the draft, and they haven't gone to have very successful careers, although two of them have had marginal success.

Here's a look at the six quarterbacks taken ahead of Brady, and how their career stats compare to his:

1) New York Jets- Chad Pennington, Marshall (Rd.1, Pick 18): 39 career starts; 1-1 career playoff record; thrown for 8621 yards, 55 touchdowns and 31 interceptions. Injuries have caught up with him in recent seasons. He hasn't been a huge bust in the NFL, but he definitely hasn't met the expectations of where he was picked.

2) SF 49'ers- Giovanni Carmazzi, Hofstra (Rd.3, Pick 65): never played a down in the NFL, unless you count playing time in the preseason. Hurt his shoulder in NFL Europe and spent two seasons on injured reserve. Right up there with Carmelo Travieso, Speedy Claxton, and World B.Free as having one of the best names in sports, but that's not much of an NFL legacy to leave.

3) Baltimore Ravens- Chris Redman, Louisville (Rd.3, Pick 75): Redman didn't fare too well in the NFL, but at least he played, which is more than can be said for Carmazzi. Redman started six games, winning three of them. He has 1111 passing yards, seven touchdown passes, and five interceptions to his credit. He last threw a TD pass in 2002.

4) Pittsburgh Steelers- Tee Martin, Tennessee (Rd. 5, Pick 163): Tee brought the national championship to Tennessee that Peyton Manning wasn't able to, but that didn't translate to success in the pros. He has no career starts to his credit. Has 69 passing yards, no TD passes and one interception. He last played in a game in 2003.

5) New Orleans Saints- Marc Bulger, West Virginia (Rd. 6, Pick 168): The Saints are great at drafting players, but most of the players that they draft go on to have their best success while playing for other teams (Chad Morton, Ricky Williams, Mark Fields, Barry Word, Wes Chandler, Jack del Rio), and the same was true for Bulger. Of the QB's drafted before Brady, Bulger's had the most success. He's passed for 11932 yds, 71 touchdowns, and 51 interceptions. His career record as a starter is 30-16, and he's 1-1 in playoff games.

6) Cleveland Browns- Spergon Wynn, SW Tex. St. (Rd. 6, Pick 183): A mere 16 picks before Brady, the Browns selected Wynn, but he didn't help them win at all. He didn't win any of his three career starts, passed for 585 yards, and threw one TD pass against seven interceptions.

and

New England Patriots- Tom Brady, Michigan (Rd.6, Pick 199): Were it not for a Mo Lewis bellringer-shot to the head of Drew Bledsoe in 2001, the Patriots may never have seen Brady play in the regular season. Thrust into the starting role, he responded by leading the Patriots all the way to their first Super Bowl victory. He's gone 58-20 in regular season starts. Counting playoffs, he's 68-21 as a starter, the best mark for any current starter in the NFL. In his career, Brady has thrown for 18035 passing yards, and has thrown almost twice as many touchdown passes (123) as interceptions (66).

STAT COMPARISON of other six qb's vs. Brady:
Brady: career starts- 89; other six qb's-90 combined
Brady: playoff record- 10-1; other qb's- 2-2
Brady: TD passes- 123; other qb's- 134 combined
Brady: Interceptions- 66; other qb's- 94
Brady: passing yards- 18035; other qb's- 22318 (10386 w/out Bulger)
Brady: Super Bowl wins- 3; other qb's-0

To those who say that Manning is better than Brady, remember this: Brady has more titles in his career (3) than Manning does (0), has a better winning percentage (76.4%) than Manning does (60.6%), has more playoff wins (10) than Manning does (3). Also, Brady's 3 titles over none for Manning is even more impressive when you consider that Manning has played three seasons more than Brady has, so Brady has had less time to win the titles than Manning has.

It's easy to look at the 2000 draft class now, and say that every team wishes they had drafted Brady when they had the chance. Fortunately for the Patriots, no one can change the past, and they'll continue to reap the benefits of that for as long as Tom Brady plays in the NFL. The rest of the NFL will always wonder what might have been.

Sometimes, it's the intangibles that count the most.

Denny ... how does that support Stanton? The claims made so far (against Stanton anyway) are that Stanton has the tallent but not the leadership (leadership = an intangible).

We often reach to make comparisons that are unfair to the individual. Ex. Current players versus old timers

Henne is put on a team that is a collection of 4 years worth of Top 10 recruiting classes. He is given an All American Halfback and a Top 3 defense. He is given the ball and the coaches say, Don't lose the game.

Stanton is on a team with average talent. Not a single Top 10 recruiting class. Not a single All American on his team. He is given the ball and the coaches say, Go win this game for us.

It might not be fair to compare these two players. I will agree with Wizzle on that he has made some great throws. However, it's easy to be solid when the weight is on others, not on your shoulders.

O.K. I'm away from the 8 year olds finally, so it's response time.


Moodini you switched to Stanton last year. After the Wisconsin loss last year, I specifically remember you saying, “Henne sucks.” Even better, after wk 1 this year, we were kicking it and you said, “It was typical Henne, overthrowing all of his receivers".

Dang dog. I guess I better watch what I say when we're shooting pool. It may be used against me in future posts. LOL.


BTW..MOOD is the biggest flip-flopper since John Kerry.

O.K. Jicknuts, that comment just cost you a lunch. I only owe you 2 now. LOL.

I'm not flip flopping here. Last year I said that Stanton was the better QB and I'm not wavering from that stance here. All I said was that Henne is looking like the man right now. His numbers are better and Michigan is winning while Stanton's numbers are down and is losing because he's surrounded my mental midgets. I'm going to agree with Tre's point about the system each is in and what they're surrounded with. What if Henne was running the spread surrounded by clowns? What if Stanton was chucking bombs to Manningham? Who knows. I think they are both very solid QB's and Stanton is a redshirt Senior and Henne is a true junior so Stanton has 2 years on Henne. What would Henne be like if Gutz didn't get hurt and he got to redshirt? What would he be like in his redshirt senior season?


Henne was exposed last year when he didn't have a WR to bail him out. Braylon absolutely bailed him out as a freshman. Manningham being open by 10 yards on every play is doing the same. He wouldn't hold Drew's jock strap.

I think you may be overstating things here a bit dog. Sure Manningham broke that cat's ankles on the 69 yard bomb vs. ND, but he didn't have to break stride. The other 2 TD's to both corners of the endzone were placed perfectly by Chad, just out of the DBs' reach.

All in all, with all things considered, I'd give a slight edge to Stanton as a college QB. He is mobile and accurate and Henne has the gun. But right now, Stanton seems to be slipping and Henne is gaining ground. I do think Henne will make a better pro QB due to his arm strength and the system he comes from.

Really good post. Yeah dog, make sure you mean what you say during pool haha. You know what I always say, I can't remember names, forget my own sometimes. But, I never forget words said.

I think this discussion will go on for another 5 years.

But here's how I see it ending up. Henne with the NFL career of Damon Huard and Stanton with the NFL career of Tommie Frasier.

Neither one can really brag, but at least one ends up with a handful of starts before it's all over.

The NFL is too fast for Stanton's legs and his arm will never make it without the legs.
Henne will have just enough pro-style experience and smarts when he's done to be able to stick around as a 2nd or 3rd string guy long enough to catch a handful of breaks.

Denny ... how does that support Stanton? The claims made so far (against Stanton anyway) are that Stanton has the tallent but not the leadership (leadership = an intangible).

What I'm saying is that sometimes a decent college QB can look fantastic within an installed system, surrounded by talented players who can compensate, or up against a weak conference (the Detmers?). Conversely, a very good QB can be hindered by lack of a playmaking "go to" guy, a very strong conference, or a crummy system.

It's not that Brady was a great QB stuck in a run-first system. He posted some solid numbers and is highly ranked in the UM record books. But whatever the scouts saw (or didn't see) dropped him down to pick 199. He posted an 80% win ratio in the Big Ten as a starter, and that wasn't good enough to crack the top 100!

Remember, these guys are 20-22 years of age. Frustration comes easy at that age. Games like these might actually help Stanton in the long run, toughen him up. However, a lot of that depends on John L. and how he mentally conditions his players.

While your take has merit, it can justify a productive NFL career for almost any college QB in a quality conference. That is, any QB with an arm that runs a challenging offense. That's not Stanton. His team runs an offense that is designed to move the ball quickly and is very simple for a QB. So his numbers aren't deceptively low. The ONLY comparison you could draw for Stanton is a guy like Steve Young, whose scrambling ability was crazy, especially since nothing about him looked like a guy who could indeed scramble. Only problem is Young threw a much better ball. Stanton throws more ducks than he does bullets, and don't try to argue. I've watched the last 3 State games and it's absolutely true. Elway had grit and scrambling ability too, but you would get laughed out of the thread if you tried to compare his arm to Stanton. Drew isn't anywhere close. Actually, I think the best possible thing for Stanton, if he got some things straightened out, would be if he ended up like Daunte Culpepper. That is a possible comparison down the raod, I just don't believe it will happen. There are too many QB's around the league right now for a team to waste such a high pick on him. Quinn has so much more NFL-projected ability. If a team wants a guy with some scrambling ability, they would be better off to take Leak. At least Leak has an arm. You can teach Leak the rest.

Henne is put on a team that is a collection of 4 years worth of Top 10 recruiting classes. He is given an All American Halfback and a Top 3 defense. He is given the ball and the coaches say, Don't lose the game.

Stanton is on a team with average talent. Not a single Top 10 recruiting class. Not a single All American on his team. He is given the ball and the coaches say, Go win this game for us.



Everyone was saying that MSU had the BEST Group of WR's in the Big Ten before the season. Their rushing attack has been among the best in the nation the past 2 years but that hurts Stanton? Give me a fucking break

you guys are missing a huge point of the game and the quarterback position. Leadership.

you guys are missing a huge point of the game and the quarterback position. Leadership.

Case in point: Ryan Leaf. Dude was next level in college ball. But, not a leader = whiner in the pros.

I'm not certain if it's a fair comparison, but I'm wondering if college systems hurt QB's very much like how certain systems in college basketball ruin the pro chances of some ballers. Indiana for example under Knight. The kinds of players recruited to fit that system (like Steve Alford) blossomed® in his system, but dropped turd in the pros. Carson Palmer, pre Carroll, had promise, but couldn't reached that upper plateau of stardom under that dickhead Paul Hackett. Install a pro set offense under Carroll and Chow, and suddenly the dude is Heisman material.

Insofar as leadership, Jim McMahon threw some of the buttugliest "spirals" anybody's ever seen, but dude was a natural born leader, and guided the Bears to the promised land.

Everyone was saying that MSU had the BEST Group of WR's in the Big Ten before the season. Their rushing attack has been among the best in the nation the past 2 years but that hurts Stanton? Give me a fucking break

Muhme, c'mon dog! Are you really arguing that these qb's are playing with equal talent? WTF!? We all know Stanton has the weight of an entire program on his shoulders, while Henne sits within his Top 10 talent team and gets to lean on All Americans.

Do you follow recruiting at all? Henne is playing with 4 Top 10 recruiting classes. Stanton is playing with only 1 stinking class that cracked the Top 20!

"Everyone was saying that MSU had the BEST group of WR's in the BT before the season."
-Can you please define EVERYONE? I like their receivers alot however The Sporting News listed MSU's receiving corp behind MICHIGAN's, Ohio State's, and Penn State's.

If you are a Henne guy, that is great. But, don't try convincing everybody that they are playing within the same situation.

you guys are missing a huge point of the game and the quarterback position. Leadership.

Once again, how do you know that Stanton is not a great leader? Everything I've witnessed in person or on TV shows that he is a leader. While covering MSU, have you had any players or coaches say Stanton is not a leader for them? If so, please share.

I've witnessed amazing leaders on bad teams. It happens. Just because a team loses, doesn't mean a player is not a leader.

The ideal leader doesn't fumble twice and lay down after the second one so he doesn't have to play anymore.

The ideal leader doesn't fumble twice and lay down after the second one so he doesn't have to play anymore.

Stanton = Jim "Chrissy" Everett?

Nope. I think Stanton is at least cool enough to roll with Rome's punches and not attack the pimp in the box.

The ideal leader doesn't fumble twice and lay down after the second one so he doesn't have to play anymore.

Quite possibly the most ignorant writer on WTF.

Looks like you gave up the 25% of quality sports discussion in your arsenal in favor of straight flame post trash talk.

According to that brilliant post Mike Hart layed down last year along with half of the Michigan Basketball team because they were embarrassed as much as their fans were to wear maize and blue.

See, i can post like that too. I just gave it up around the time my voice cracked.

Wow. Yeah, they're the same, dumbass.

By the way, how many career fumbles does Hart have?

Ok, so dumbass was harsh, but I'm not going to back away from it based on the following reasons:

1 - IF Hart has fumbled twice before he left the game I would certainly have questioned his leadership ability. DO NOT PRETEND THAT mICHIGAN FANS DON'T QUESTION THE LEADERSHIP ABILITY OF THEIR TOP PLAYERS! You know for a fact that Michigan fans have given crap to Henne, Breaston, Braylon, Woodley, Marlin Jackson, Navvarre, Grady, and a long, long list of players and coaches.

2 - Do not tell me that you think Stanton's play last week was indicative of a leader. I get upset when my friends lie to me.

3 - If dumbass was a cheap shot, so was the claim that only 25% of my arsenal is quality sports discussion. That was ignorant and hypocritical.

4 - Since when has anyone said that Michigan's basketball team was full of leaders? I only recall once mentioning that Horton played with heart, and that was referring to a 3 game stretch. In fact, I'm fairly certain I remarked that it was nice to see him do that FOR A CHANGE.

But hell, if you think Stanton's play last week was that of a good leader, then I hope Nichol is a GREAT leader, so he can piss away every game he plays in.

By the way, my voice just cracked again, bitch.

(hoping you laugh at that last comment)

You didn't have to respond to my last paragraph. It was intended to be ignorant. I was trying to copy your "lay down so he didn't have to play anymore" style. I was trying to say two can play that game.

yea, i did laugh at that one

My voice just cracked again >>>>>> got a link

lol

Ok, here's the key stats:
Henne 13 TD, 4 INT, 6-0
Stanton 12 total TD (8 pass, 4 rush), 6 INT, 3-3

Regardless of all the talent around these guys, those numbers are close enough right now that Henne's edge isn't quite as big as it would seem.

But looking inside the numbers a bit more, you'll see that Henne is the superior arm, having 13 TD passes in spite of the fact that he hasn't thrown more than 25 passes in any game this year.

Stanton, with his arm, is clearly inferior. More passing attempts, much smaller YPA numbers, and 5 fewer TD's.

So we should never disagree about the difference in their arms.

We should also never disagree that Stanton is MUCH better as a scrambler.

The question is, would you give up the scrambling to gain the better arm? Would you give up the better arm for the ability to get tough first downs?

I used to think Michigan would be better if they had Stanton. I don't anymore. But on the other hand, I don't think State would be better with Henne either. Their running game depends way too much on the threat of Stanton running. So both team is better with the current QB than they would be with the other guy.

How will that translate to NFL teams? I think more NFL offenses are similar to Michigan's than they are to State's. Therefore, advantage Henne on the next level.

By the way, you probably heard today that Stanton slipped from preseason top 10 senior to 23 on Mel's board.

First off...I am glad you remember I never waffled from my stance.


Next, I spend a lot of time talking MSU and I have spent a lot of time this offseason and season working with them and covering the team (from the looks of it I have to cover their fucking locker room after the game this saturday) and let me tell you Drew has lost the team again. Did the coaches help Drew? No. the coaches hate Drew

it is known that Drew and everyone behind Drew hate John L. And JL didnt even want Drew as his QB.

Tre..I am sure you know this but there is so much BS in that rinky dink football program up there in EL it is sickning.

Let me leave you with this and tell me your thoughts...

What did you think of the teams response when Hoyer came into the game? How they rallied around him. Why didnt they do that for Drew the past two weeks?

I am telling you what...there is a lot of bullshit going on behind the sceens in EL. I dont get to hear most of it but I hear a lot of the whispers. This team is split, bobbys boys vs JL's boys...and it has been for two straight years now.

As a person...Drew is a great guy. I ahve had the opportunity to talk to him a few times and he is great. Nice guy...but as a football player, Ill take Chad Henne every day.

I like your insider information Muhme. However, some of the things you said in this post seem to be completely untrue. You said the coaches hate Drew. During the game today they said that the coaches made him an unpaid graduate assistant coach and he sits in their game preparation meetings with them. You also questioned Drew's leadership, however after they scored their 2nd TD they showed Drew walking up and down the sideline trying to fire up the D, slapping their pads, etc. I don't know what else he can do. This thread will probably fizzle with Michigan flying high and State sinking, but I wanted to point those things out.

If JLS liked him so much why the hell would he put him on Special Teams? Tre talk to some people that cover the team off the record buddy...dont listen to the BS that the four letter network is going to spoon feed you. I could point to numerous things from College to the Pros that is full of bullshit when they broadcast it...case in point look at the pistons the past two years...

Believe me or not...it doesnt really matter to me. I work with people that are very close to the program and I have talked to people that have great connections inside the program. You can ignore what I saw or not...I think the results you see on saturdays proves my point.

and if you want to talk about Drew being a leader...and "firing up his team" tell me why Trannon was laughing in the tunnel after the game about the loss? Tell me why Jehuu, Otis Wiley and Demond Williams were chipper as hell after the game in the presser when we talked to them.

Keep doubting me and putting your boy Drew on a plateau...3-3 with two HUGE collapses is all I need to point to

Muhme, I don't really think he was doubting you at all...and honestly, I never heard any of what you are bringing up either, but as a UM fan, I don't claim to be a MSU insider. Just simma down a little bit, it seems like you are about to have a coronary.

Head to Head numbers-

Chad Henne 11-17, 140 yds, 3 TD, 0 INT

Drew Stanton 20-35, 252 yds, 0 TD, 2 INT, 1 rush TD

Now this discussion really gets interesting.

MOODINI

if you're ever looking for some good reading material

http://www.sportsinferno.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13480&page=1&pp=40

that is me laying it down before the season started about this

Nice. [smilie=toot.gif]

Per Rivals

QB:
Chad Henne #3
Drew Stanton #18

Those ranks are HOW THEY RATED IN THE NATION

Muhme, you just keep running your mouth, but you've failed to acknowledge any points that I've made. You make absolutely retarded posts too. "Why did he put him on special teams?" He was a freshman and John L. had very few tough athletes at the time. He was actually their leading special teams tackler that year.

Several people here have pointed out the fact that it is not fair to compare the two because of their completely different situations. Drew playing with 3 star talent and a bad coach. Henne playing with Top 10 talent and All Americans to lean on. You've never acknowledged this point. So I guess I'll mention it for the third time.

However, Drew has played like shit ever since the 3rd quarter of the ND game. The Michigan game was the first time I didn't see fire in him. I see absolutely no fire in him today against OSU. Really disappoints me. I don't blame him for everything wearing on him, but I'm still disappointed. I won't defend anymore.

Stanton was jarred by Ohio State defensive tackle Quinn Pitcock on the Spartans' next possession, appearing to hurt his back. Stanton was knocked out of the game for good midway through the third quarter, hitting his head on a large sideline Gatorade container after a hit by linebacker Marcus Freeman (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=134720).
This quote sponsored by PowerAde®.

I realize that Michigan worked hard to put their running game back in place and it has paid off, but I think the reason why this argument is even close is because Henne has been a lot of all or nothing this year. A bunch of TD's from outside of the red zone, but the yards have been scarce and short everywhere else, with a number of games that had a completion percentage of only around 50%.
Like today, yeah, Massey dropped another score, Breaston should have caught that last ball, and a few others were pretty close, but the opportunity was there for him to have a 21-30 game for 290 yards and 3 TD, yet he had far less than that statistically.
I think he could put this discussion to rest if he were just a bit more sharp on his execution.
Fair or not, the true test for him will probably be whether or not he can lead this team through an undefeated season. If he does that, I'm guessing that Spartan fans will not only stop defending Stanton, but actually give Henne props. But for now, I can't blame them for being hesitant to give Henne too much credit.

Stock Up-Chad Henne

Stock Down-Drew Stanton

Henne-7 TDs and 0 INTs the last 3 games

Stanton-0 passing TDs in the last 14 quarters.

I know the world is crumbling around Stanton and Henne is flying high, but I just don't see how Stanton can be a 1st round pick after this mess of a season. He looks defeated, no fire, and his armstrength is looking more and more suspect.

I'm not saying Henne is the better QB for sure yet, but these two are headed in extremely opposite directions.

This has just become a joke now.

Seriously, if you're a Spartan fan do you want Stanton to run or not?

If he DOES run, he's just waiting to get tagged and hobble off.

If he DOES NOT run, then you have to trust his shaky arm and the offense will have an extremely difficult time getting anything going.

If I were a State fan (my lunch is coming up as I type so I'll have to get this out quick) I would be torn, but I think I would want him to run less. Run only when absolutely necessary, and run out of bounds or slide. Otherwise, this QB that you all praise so much might not get to play in his last game. True, he won't be the same QB if he doesn't run, but at least you would get to see him. It would be bad for him to be on the sidelines his last game.

While we're at it, starting up the Mallett vs Nichol debate, you might want to hope Nichol doesn't experience the same treatment Stanton did or we can just change the names in this whole thing (though I expect Mallett to have some gaudy numbers).

If I was a Spartan I wouldnt want Drew in the game. it is clear he cant handle the D1 game lol

Nobody is arguing or disagreeing or even discussing yet a few of you just keep posting in this thread like you have nothing better to do.

Muhme, considering you are apparantly in the radio talk show biz, I would expect you to spend time on WTF getting into discussions more than anyone else. It seems as though you just come here to take shots at State and that's it.

If we wanted middle school quality posts, we'd ask "Art" to come back.

MUHME, hands down best sig of all time

Ahh...I have Sportsinferno to do that. I cant troll on there because my bosses monitor my madness lol. I just like bustin balls brotha...

I thought I asked a legitimate question Tre. Way to be a jick though. lol

MUHME, hands down best sig of all time

Without question.[smilie=applause.gi: As soon as he's not rocking it anymore, I'm stealing that joint.

Not sure if you guys like chad...but here is one I rock on my new boad I just started

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/jm_phenom23/hennewhite2qg.jpg

You guys can take that if you wish

avvys I made:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/jm_phenom23/Revenge.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/jm_phenom23/TDMario.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/jm_phenom23/Hartbeat.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/jm_phenom23/MikeHart.jpg

steal if you would like

Good work Muhme. I can guarantee you I'll be rocking some or all of them at some point. And uhh.....Henne is now WAAAY better.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0610/gallery.cfb.top15qbs/content.15.html

No Stanton according to SI

I have beef. Hart was not on that team that beat Michigan State 49-3.

3 things....

How can anyone possibly say that Stanton is a first round pick now? I know if my team burned a first round pick on Stanton, I'd be pissed, and not just cuz he's a Sparty. He's a mess.

Jethro, I took Muhme's pic as a picture of Wolverine football dominance over MSU, with Hart being a flat out Spartan Killer. He's run for 564 yards vs. MSU in 3 games. Feeeel it!

Muhme, seriously, where did you get that sig? That is the sickest thing ever. Woodson was the baddest man on the planet. The pick was the best football catch I've ever seen, and just look how he struts after he gets back up. What a stud.

[smilie=not-worthy.:http://espn-att.starwave.com/media/classic/2001/0501/photo/s_woodson_i.jpg

Moodini nailed it about the Hart thing...He is just a state killer...and I wanted it to look like that was in the past and Mike was the future for more killings..lol, I dont know...I was having fun with PS.

I have said that I would not defend Stanton's play versus Henne any longer and I maintain that stance. Stanton has not had a good year. However, I have continued to question several things Muhme claimed to be true earlier in the season. Here is a sample:

Muhme: Next, I spend a lot of time talking MSU and I have spent a lot of time this offseason and season working with them and covering the team (from the looks of it I have to cover their fucking locker room after the game this saturday) and let me tell you Drew has lost the team again. Did the coaches help Drew? No. the coaches hate Drew

JL didnt even want Drew as his QB.

Muhme, your bogus insider info continues to be exploited. Your insider info is garbage. John L. Smith did a live interview on ESPN2 following their win today. Here is what he had to say:

ESPN: "Coach Smith, what you do have to say about your quarterback Stanton's gutsy performance today?

Smith: "What can you say about him? He's just so darn tough. People have been saying all kinds of crazy stuff like, Get him out! I've said, Nonsense! That kid can play and he's going to play as long as he physically can for me! I love that kid! (as he gets choked up and pulls back tears)"

Any other maize and blue stories you'd like to tell Muhme? Maybe the Enquirer will have some openings for ya next year.
http://akamai.magazine-services.net/covers/dxv/11972165.jpgMUHME FOR HIRE!

Signed,
Coach that puts Drew on Special Teams

I'm not the only one that says this shit Tre...Continue to live with your head in the clouds brotha.

You questioning me with ESPN2 interviews is laughable. Again, Tre...you dont have to believe one word I say...I just relay shit I hear from inside the program, people that cover the team and players/players family.

I suppose you thought Bush really knew there were weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq...after all he said it in an interview lol

Oh and BTW...solid comeback yesterday. Drew continues to show that he can play good against...well, less than average competition.

Oh and BTW...solid comeback yesterday. Drew continues to show that he can play good against...well, less than average competition.

Yeah, el foldo against the Big Boys.

Here's more material to support your Star Magazine stories Muhme:

Senior Leadership plays a major role in improbable comeback
by Paul Konyndyk

MSU vs. NW Recap
JLS Video
MSU looks to get healthy


EVANSVILLE, Ill. - Senior leadership was a major component of Michigan State's improbable comeback win over Northwestern. Cliff Ryan, David Herron and SirDarean Adams kept the defense upbeat throughout, while Kyle Cook and Drew Stanton made sure the offense never lost its cool.

No, you are right Muhme. I know I get choked up when speaking about players on our basketball team that I hate all the time. LOL! Good work. Keep up the Drew Stanton's waterboy's Mom's 3rd Cousin told me....

Funny how you try to change the subject when you are getting worked too. I said I wouldn't defend his play, however you tried to switch from talking about him "not being a leader" to his performances.

In response to your changing of the topic and to what Moodini said:

In Stanton's 3 years as a starter, this is how he has faired against Notre Dame, Michigan, and Ohio State (State's 3 biggest opponents) I chose not to include the amazing performance he had against #5 Wisconsin (50 pt win) 2 yrs ago.

Notre Dame- 2 great performances, 1 bad (this year, however-played great until 4th quarter)

Michigan- 2 great performances, 1 bad

Ohio State- 1 great performance, 1 bad (did not play as soph due to injury)

I could argue that his bad performances might have a lot to do with him facing these teams with far inferior talent. However, if you look above, you'll see that he has had more great performances against the big boys than bad. You can always skew stats like Jethro and I found, but if you do some research, you'll see that what I listed above is absolutely true. Once again, I won't defend his play this year. However, for Muhme and Moodini to say he doesn't play well against good teams, that is COMPLETELY UNTRUE. Don't post shit if you don't know what you're talking about. Muhme, you also stated last year that you really can't speak about Stanton because not until about wk 10 of last year did you actually ever watch Stanton much. You try to make all these huge arguments but you said with your own mouth last year that you didn't see State games because you were covering the Michigan games. (Mind like a steel freaking trap)

Keep wasting your time posting stories bro. Convince yourself that Drew is the man and your boys love him...Ill see you at the Motor City Bowl.

Keep up the Drew Stanton's waterboy's Mom's 3rd Cousin told me....

What the hell are you talking about?

Tre, what do you determine as a great performance? Others may not agree.

Show me some stats playa. And Drew is 2-6 in those games, 0-5 vs. Michigan and Ohio State.

Tre, what do you determine as a great performance? Others may not agree.

Show me some stats playa. And Drew is 2-6 in those games, 0-5 vs. Michigan and Ohio State.
ahh Mood...I like Tre, I really do. It is ODD that you get a MSU fan that actually knows his shit and doesnt pull the "YOU DIDNT GO TO U OF M SO STFU" Card over and over...

I just think he is beyond frustrated with his program and really is stretching to convince himself it isnt as bad as it appears to be.

Tre, what do you determine as a great performance? Others may not agree.

Show me some stats playa. And Drew is 2-6 in those games, 0-5 vs. Michigan and Ohio State.

I don't feel like digging out the stats, but I'll give you a quick summary to refresh your memory. Feel free to dig if you don't believe me.

Soph- Drew went off in the first half against Michigan. I think you remember, He was shredding their D avging 8 yds a carry and he completed 70% of his passes before Woodley injured him.

Reaves started against ND, and was horrible. Drew came in at the half with the crowd chanting his name. Led a comeback (70 rushing yards in the half i believe). Pulled State within one score when they were down 21 in the first half. Caulcrick fumble ended comeback.

Junior- Ripped ND for nearly 400 yards passing. Played terrific against Michigan, kicker cost them the game. You commented after the game about how many huge third down conversions he made and you posted Stanton in this very thread. Completed 80% of his passes against Ohio State and threw for 300 yds.

As you can see, he's had many big performances against great opponents. Moodini and Muhme, you continue to ignore the fact that he plays with inferior talent. Moodini, you pointed out to me on Friday that State gets less talent competing with OSU, Michigan, and ND...but then you come here and post Stanton's record versus those opponents. Which is it? Football is the ultimate team sport. You can blame him for the ND loss this year. But, you can't blame him for what bowl the team goes to or their record versus opponents with more talent.

You put Stanton on Michigan's team and they not only win the National Title, it isn't even close.

he completed 70% of his passes before Woodley injured him.



That is odd? Lamaar knock the shit out of someone...god that man is great.

He's great, however it wasn't a monster hit. It was the fall on his collarbone that put him out.

Ok, nobody wants to pull out the stats. I'm a stat geek so I'll do it.

The numbers (I'll share with you in a bit) tell a tremendous story.

They show me a guy who was NOT confident in his arm as a sophomore, so he ran effectively and set up the short pass with great efficiency (a la Vince Young).

They show me a guy who worked his butt off developing his arm to the point that he had poor judgement when running but shredded people through the air as a junior.

Then, they show a guy who has no clue what he's doing as a senior. It's easily his worst season to date in terms of efficiency. His running is slightly better than last year, but his arm is next to nothing statistically compared to last season.

By the way, these comments only apply to the games against the big 3. I didn't look at them beyond that. And according to ESPN.com, Mood is wrong about the record when he says 2-6. It's actually 1-7.

So here's the numbers against those teams over the last 3 years.

2006
38 of 73 for 420 yards, 2 TD and 5 INT. 33 rushes for 71 yards a 1 TD

2005
62 of 93 for 949 yards, 5 TD and 2 INT. 46 rushes for 52 yards and 2 TD

2004 (not playing a full game for either of the two, and not at all for OSU)
18 of 25 for 205 yards, o TD and o INT. 20 rushes for 129 yards and 2 TD.

Those are the numbers. Treat them how you will.

My summaries listed above were accurate. I think we hit a standstill in this thread though. Maybe some interesting developments will further it.

Tre, what do you determine as a great performance? Others may not agree.

Show me some stats playa. And Drew is 2-6 in those games, 0-5 vs. Michigan and Ohio State.

Oh yeah, I forgot they lost that Caulcrick fumble game at home vs. ND.

Make that 1-7 in those games, 0-5 vs. Michigan and Ohio State.

Once again, you keep posting records. Stanton was responsible for one of those loses. You said yourself that State has far less talent. Don't blame one player when there are 11 on the field.

I really don't want to be having this argument, but I need to make a point on some issues so I guess I'm in.

First, for better or worse I would argue that you can't give Stanton credit for any game in which he only played a portion. You give him credit for a great start to one Michigan game. As the Notre Dame game (as a negative) and the Northwestern game (as a positive) showed, you can hardly judge a QB based on a partial game. Who's to say Stanton doesn't implode against Michigan at the end of the game his junior year the way he did this year against ND? I'm sure you'll argue that's not fair, but I'm saying you can't count it for good OR bad, you simply have to throw it out.

Also, be careful on stat exaggeration. I know we all do it and it's done to accentuate a point, but it can hurt the credibility of an argument. Nearly 400 yards passing against ND last year? I'm not sure when 327 went from over 300 to nearly 400, but I would reserve comments like nearly 400 until a guy has eclipsed the 370 mark or so. Giving him credit for an extra 73 yards is a bit much, especially when that's over an additional 20% of his total.

When all is said and done, you can make this argument:
Stanton more often than not plays at a higher level in big games. He makes his team far better and has almost willed them to win some huge games they otherwise had no business even being close in.
I think that's fair.

However, he can be blamed for some absolutely horrible losses as well. Like Northwestern last year? Or Penn State, a great team no doubt. But the rest of his team stepped up in that game. Meanwhile, his 4 INT's stand out in a big way. In fact, he has never played well against Penn State. Until the 2nd half of this year, he was horrible against Northwestern too. (3 INT last year in a laugher) He was pretty brutal against Illinois this year.

Can you say that him leaving it all on the field in big games costs the teams some easy wins as well in let-down games? Maybe, maybe not. Probably not fair to say.

Ok, I've said my peace. I'm sure my comments will be analyzed and attacked. It's only fair after I did just that.

In response to the 327 yds being "almost 400," I was going off memory. I didn't look anything up. That entire three year summary was just off my memory. I'm bound to make a mistake. Still a great game.

In response to the 327 yds being "almost 400," I was going off memory. I didn't look anything up. That entire three year summary was just off my memory. I'm bound to make a mistake. Still a great game.

No disagreement there. Especially when you add that he threw 3 TD and ran for another.

Just for the sake of throwing more numbers out there -
Henne has played in 8 games between Notre Dame, Ohio State and Michigan State and his raw passing stats in those games are 1,903 yards, 18 TD and 6 INT.

Does this even need to be a thread anymore? I looks like Henne has won by KO. Jethro, Tre, can this thread be shut down and locked?

It's more fun for me if it isn't locked. So no.

If you are talking college football player....Henne is a better, but if you are talking NFL potential than Stanton is the better QB at this time.

Henne needs to work on a lot more of his game right now than Staton does. I dont think either are starting caliber NFL QBs, but I can see both being decent backups.

Wow, I think Tre will pass out. Art standing up for Tre's boy. Somewhere Jickboy just threw up on Mood's pant leg and Tre is scratching his head.

Hehe, well I hate Stanton, but if he had a better coach and players around him....he might considered the #1 pick in the NFL draft and not Quinn.

I think Stanton is a joke like his coach, but he has the potential to be a decent pro. If Henne continues to listen to Lefty who knows where Henne ends up. If anyone wants some prespective of the UM program before the season started I got EMAILS from a guy who regularly talks to the coaches and sends out EMAILS to some of us when things are slow.

Art is my boy! haha

What Art said is what I've been trying to say. You give Stanton a team around him and some coaching and he'd be better than Henne. Unfortunately he is stuck on the joke that is MSU Football.

I also said neither would be a great pro. I just dont think either has what it takes.

But hell, I am probably wrong and Henne and Stanton will start SB games.

http://espn-ak.starwave.com/i/story/design05/insider_byline.gif (http://insider.espn.go.com/insider/index)
http://espn-ak.starwave.com/i/columnists/Kiperjr_Mel_30.jpg (http://x.go.com/cgi/x.pl?goto=http://search.espn.go.com/keyword/search?searchString=mel_kiper_jr.&name=SEARCH_m_archive&srvc=sz)
By Mel Kiper Jr.
Special to ESPN.com
Archive (http://x.go.com/cgi/x.pl?goto=http://search.espn.go.com/keyword/search?searchString=mel_kiper_jr.&name=SEARCH_m_archive&srvc=sz)


Ever since his performance in the fourth quarter against Notre Dame, Michigan State QB Drew Stanton had been sliding down my Big Board, and last week he fell out of the Top 25. But after his performance on Saturday, erasing a 35-point deficit to help the Spartans beat Northwestern, Stanton is not only back on the board, but he's in my Top 10. Stanton doesn't have the strongest arm, but his athleticism, intangibles and desire to win are what I like most.

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncf/insider/columns/story?columnist=kiper_jr_mel&id=2638423&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncf %2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist%3dkiper_j r_mel%26id%3d2638423

I feel it.

Yeah, that was after Northwestern. What is he saying after Indiana?

Yeah, that was after Northwestern. What is he saying after Indiana?

Stanton is on a slippery slope. Would you really want your "1st round" QB to take you on a rollercoaster ride week in and week out?

I think the rollercoaster is JLS. It goes from game to game, half to half and quarter to quarter on whether JLS can keep it together.

I think personally Stanton is a tool, but I dont blame him for a lot of the losses they have suffered.

The rollercoaster is the players not having a leader. Not a coach, not a player. No leadership on that team period. You will continue to see the same bullshit for the rest of the year...I would like to see Hoyer come in a play for the rest of the season because CLEARLY the players RESPOND to him better.

Depending on what attitude is there from a coaching aspect, they could either make stupid decisions and burn out/risk health of the top players, or, they will scrap the graduating players to some degree and showcase what the next coach will have to work with. Plenty of politics at work there.

Potentially the nail in the coffin of this argument:
18 finalists named today for the Davey O'Brien trophy. 18. Stanton was hyped as a frist round pick and a top 3 QB this year. Yep, not among the 18 named as the best collegiate QB. Safe to say that the sun has set on the Stanton empire.
(Henne was on the list, for what it's worth)

"It's really hard to have my last game in Spartan Stadium go this way," said Stanton. "I just thought I would be hurting my team more than helping if I was out there."

I honestly think that State would be best off if they work Nichol in slowly. Hoyer gives them a better chance to win next year unless the new coach insists on running the option.

Thanks for playing Drew...too bad the Motor City bowl wont even take you or your team. lol

Thanks for playing Drew...too bad the Motor City bowl wont even take you or your team. lol


He would have won the national title with every other D1 team.

He would have won the national title with every other D1 team.

Bold statement, but he his a solid QB. Why go to MSU? He should have known better.

He would have won the national title with every other D1 team.
lol...I just laugh when it has come to this. haha

We should probably be ripping State more than ripping Stanton. They gave this kid nothing. I did lose some respect for him this year. A champion would have fought against history and not let it happen again. With that being said, I still like Drew.

As far as why would you go to State. I don't disagree. However, if somebody like Nichol can come in and fight off MSU history and make MSU good/great....they would be a legend. Somebody might like the idea of that.

Can I quote that in reference to Delvon Roe?

Can I quote that in reference to Delvon Roe?

[smilie=iagree.gif] I was thinkin' the exact same thing Jethro. Well played brotha.

Can I quote that in reference to Delvon Roe?

Sure thing, however...I'm not sure a PF would be able to completely turn around a program. Maybe a point guard.

Completely turn it around? Michigan was 22-11 last year...the same record that MSU was. I dont think it needs to be COMPLETELY turned around.