Solid.

http://wtfdetroit.com/index.php?page=TigersNeedCloser071906

Discuss.

Good work Jeth. Cant say I agree totally though.

I'm fine with Jones. Obviously, if there is someone better we could snag, hell yeah go for it. But for the most part, a save is a save. He's only blown 3 all year, and his ERA is elevated because of a outing that he pitched more than the one inning.

Anyways, great work :)

Nice work, Jeth.

I'll throw out a few guys that intrigue me:

Brad Lidge (HOU)
Joe Borowski (FLA)
Ryan Dempster (CHI-C)
Chad Cordero (WAS)
Mike Gonzalez (PIT)
Roberto Hernandez (PIT)

Lidge has been dealing with trade rumors ever since Pujols took him deep in the playoffs. A lot of people think a change of scenery is exactly what he needs, of course, the Astros most likely would have to fall completely out of contention to give him up.

Borowski is sort of the "flavor of the month" right now. His name is popping up in almost every rumor where a closer is needed. I never was impressed with his work as a closer when he was with the Cubs, but his numbers look pretty decent this season.

Dempster is a solid arm that the Cubs may look to move before the deadline.

Chad Cordero has had a lot of success over the past few years, he's one of those "under the radar" guys.

Mike Gonzalez has also been rumored to be on the move, and Roberto Hernandez was being pursued by the Yankees as recent as yesterday, possibly along with Jeromy Burnitz.

In short, I don't think Jones is the guy we want if we have...gulp...World Series aspirations.

Except none of those pitchers you mentioned are either worse, slightly better, or on-par with Jones. Add the fact that they pitch in an inferior league and they're turn-offs. I would absolutely cringe(even more than I do with Jones) if any of those guys were my closers in the World Series.

Brad Lidge clearly isn't good anymore. Either you have it or you don't, and Lidge does not have it. We've seen what Brad Lidge can do in the World Series and it's not pretty. He gave up a homerun to Scott freaking Podsednik. I've never believe in changed of scenery. It's lost meaning due to the fact that the term is so overused.

Dempster is crap. He is not a legit closer and has more walks than saves. He's blown more saves than Jones in less situations.

Cordero is not that much better in save situations and I'm sure the ERA is close in terms of SVO.

Roberto Hernandez is 42 and is just about done. He hasn't been a closer in four seasons and has not done that great in SVO this year. He has the same amount of BS as Jones in less appearances.

Mike Gonzalez is the only respectable pitcher on that list and even he's not a legit closer.

Good work Jeth. Cant say I agree totally though.

I'm fine with Jones. Obviously, if there is someone better we could snag, hell yeah go for it. But for the most part, a save is a save. He's only blown 3 all year, and his ERA is elevated because of a outing that he pitched more than the one inning.

Anyways, great work :)

AGREED!

Most of his bad outings are in the 2nd inning of a non-SVO(Tampa Bay, New York) game, and that's why his ERA is so inflated. I'm sure his ERA isn't that bad in save opportunities(it's probably around 3). He makes you sweat a little bit, but he gets the job done in the end.

Except none of those pitchers you mentioned are either worse, slightly better, or on-par with Jones

You'll forgive me if I let the numbers speak for themselves:

Todd Jones- 5.50 ERA, 1.42 WHIP, 3.25 K/9
Joe Borowski- 3.65 ERA, 1.32 WHIP, 7.78 K/9 Upgrade? Clearly
Ryan Dempster- 4.54 ERA, 1.30 WHIP, 8.86 K/9 Upgrade? Clearly
Chad Cordero- 3.68 ERA, 1.23 WHIP, 9.41 K/9 Upgrade? Clearly
Mike Gonzalez- 2.27 ERA, 1.41 WHIP, 8.85 K/9 Upgrade? Clearly
Roberto Hernandez- 3.10 ERA, 1.65 WHIP, 6.86 K/9 Upgrade? Debatable*
Brad Lidge- 5.73 ERA, 1.45 WHIP, 12.86 K/9 Upgrade? Debatable**

*So now you are saying 42 is too old? In another thread just minutes ago you said that guys are fine playing into their 40's. He only needs to pitch another 3 months, not 3 years. Do you think the Yankees want him because he sucks?

**His numbers don't necessarily show it, but his peers call him one of the filthiest pitchers in the game. His slider is known as one of the most devastating pitches in the game, and he throws the heater at 99 MPH. It would be interesting to see how many GMs would take Todd Jones over Brad Lidge. Pitching in that band box certainly doesn't help his numbers, they certainly would look better in Comerica.


Mike Gonzalez is the only respectable pitcher on that list and even he's not a legit closer.
Why exactly is a guy that currently holds a MLB closer's job with 14 saves, a 2.27 ERA, and a mid 90's fastball "not a legit closer"?

I'm looking forward to your reply Arch, but please come back with facts or strong "fact-based" opinions, not insults. It seems that whenever you and I go back and forth on an issue, you have a tendency to resort to a cheap shot when you are struggling.

Dems fightin words. You gonna let him talk to you like that arch?

Mike Gonzalez is not a legit closer because he has not closed long-term. Is he good? Yes, but I wouldn't label him a closer because of his few saves. His body of work in the closers role is not conclusive enough to label him a good closer.

And going by numbers, those players are minor upgrades or downgrades. K/9 goes against Jones because he's a career contact pitcher, as does WHIP. Neither are those statistics are as important as ERA.

Let's see what these pitchers have done recently:

Joe Borowski: June? 11 G/9 SV/1 R /.87 ERA. Impressive. July? ERA over 5 with a blown save. Borowski only has ONE month in which his ERA is under 4. Not MUCH better than Jones if you ask me, and he would not put us over in any way.

Ryan Dempster is NOT an upgrade. He has MORE blown saves in LESS appearances. Ryan Dempster has had three months(counting July) where his ERA is under five, Todd Jones has two(plus July). Todd Jones ERA has gone down two runs in the last month, while Ryan Dempster has yet to show ANY improvement this season. Todd Jones does a better job at *saving* games than Ryan Dempster. I think it's pretty clear.

I'll agree with you on Chad Cordero, but what makes you think a player they drafted in the 1st round three years ago is on the block?

*The Yankees want him because they are desperate. They need every pitcher they can get. But on to Hernandez, I do think he's a good pitcher, but he hasn't been that great in save situations. I also think Rodney can close games better than Hernandez.

**Brad Lidge is filthy. When he's on, he's the best reliever/closer in baseball, but he hasn't been on in nearly a year. Minute Maid Park is an EXCUSE pitchers who can't get the job done use(LIMA TIME!). Minute Maid Park has held some of the most dominant pitchers(Dotel, Lidge, Oswalt, Pettitte, Clemens) of our era. Brad Lidge has very filthy stuff, but players have had no problem hitting off of him. So is it really worth trading for a player who hasn't been good in a year and put him into a superior hitting league?

I'm looking forward to your reply Arch, but please come back with facts or strong "fact-based" opinions, not insults. It seems that whenever you and I go back and forth on an issue, you have a tendency to resort to a cheap shot when you are struggling.

I haven't thrown an insult since January. Take that!

EDIT: Unless you consider calling someone a complainer an insult.

EDIT: This post also has no place in this thread and hurts my feelings. :(

We have a wealth of pitching ready to come into the league. No way I spend youth to acquire a pitcher this year. Move Z up to closer and make Tata or Dirty your set-up guy

Thanks Arch, that was pretty solid even if I disagree with you on several counts, mostly your view on ERA v. WHIP v. K/9 when it comes to evaluating closers.

ERA is probably the least important stat of the three for a closer, not the most. WHIP demonstrates how many baserunners are getting on base, which is a direct measurement of dominance. K/9 will show you, in no uncertain terms, how effective a guy is at confusing a hitter. If you are striking guys out as a closer, you not only are intimidating the opposition, but those are balls that are not being put into play, (less pressure on your defense, less chance of an error, less chance that a ball finds a hole). With ERA, guys that score that are inherited don't even factor in, and that's huge.

Thanks for the solid and classy response.


edit: typo

We have a wealth of pitching ready to come into the league. No way I spend youth to acquire a pitcher this year. Move Z up to closer and make Tata or Dirty your set-up guy

I agree that having a "different" closer doesn't necessarily equate to making a trade.

I'd be fine with Rodney or Zumaya over Jones.

Jones is fine.

Does he scare the shit out of us sometime? Yes. The last few games i've seen some base runners on Mariano Rivera. IMO it happens. Jones has only blow 3 saves all year. He's really not that bad.

I think what people have a problem with, is the fact that all his saves seem to be dramatic. Theres no comfert level with him like there is with Rivera, and some of the other top closers in baseball. But if you look at his save numbers, they're good. Sure the ERA is up, but thats a useless stat for pitchers.

Rivera has blow 2 saves this year, only one less than Jones.

I don't love Jones, but considering the amount of money we have invested in him, I think we're pretty well stuck with him. I just can't see them going after another name closer when, despite the shaky moments, the bullpen has really been the least of our worries so far.

Also, to me at least, TJ's looked a whole lot better the last month and a half. His pitches seem to have more bite, and he hasn't even gotten into too many jams. In his last ten appearances, he's given up 1 run and only 6 hits, that's pretty good. We'll see if he can keep it up, but I'm forever the optimist, and when you look at his numbers from FLA last year, it shows that he's at least capable of doing a bang up job. I think we have enough other great arms around that we can afford to give him a chance for another month or so and if he fails, just go with an in-house replacement. The White Sox sure proved that could work last year.

As for Cordero, I think he's one of the top 6-7 closers in the league. I'd love to get him, but I doubt he's on the market. I'm betting their asking price for him would be higher than for Soriano.

(Edit-I just realized we'll probably be going into the ninth in a save situation so if Jones get's rocked, ignore everything I just typed...)

Also, Jones' Stache reminds me of Willie Hernandez.

I'm glad my front page debut was worthy of discussion and kind words even though it isn't a consensus agreement. In fact, I'm glad it isn't consensus because rarely does that generate strong discussion. Vinny is clearly the master of writing for baseball purposes, but I'm glad I was allowed to dabble a bit.
Hopefully I'll have time to put together some solid college football articles in the future.

ps-that's a teaser

Rivera just blew his 3rd save, giving up a walk off HR to the Jays, matching Jones

Rivera just blew his 3rd save, giving up a walk off HR to the Jays, matching Jones

Golly, it happens every two years or so. And for the record that was the FIRST HR that Rivera has given up this year.

I don't think you really want to start comparing Todd Jones to arguably the best closer of all time, you'll come out looking silly.

I'm just saying that everyone blows saves, and Jones hasnt blow that many. I'm not compairing them. Jones isnt even on Riveras planet.

Make a sandwich.