PROJ. STARTERS Pos. Ht. Wt. AGE
Chauncey Billups G 6-3 202 30
Richard Hamilton G-F 6-7 193 28
Rasheed Wallace F-C 6-11 230 32
Nazr Mohammed C 6-10 250 29
Tayshaun Prince F 6-9 215 26

BENCH AGE

Antonio McDyess F 6-9 245 32
Flip Murray G 6-3 197 27
Carlos Delfino G 6-6 230 24
Dale Davis C-F 6-11 252 37
Lindsey Hunter G 6-2 195 35
Amir Johnson F 6-9 210 19
Jason Maxiell

I'm sorry, but that's not a contending lineup.

IMO, you've got 4 good starters, 1 throw in, 1 nice bench big, 1 aging defensive backup pg, 1 piece of hit or miss effort on any given night euro-trash (via Argentina, of course), a supposed backup 2/3 who isn't even tall enough to be a 2, is known for his scoring not defense, but shoots under 40% and wasn't offered more than 1.75 mil by ANY other team for some reason, an undersized center with no offense who should be retired but wants to piggyback real players for a ring, a big man who is basically a rookie, and a guy who never played any college ball, is switching positions from where he played in high school, and is basically a rookie.

Of course we're not championship contenders. That ended the minute Ben Wallace decided to sign with the Bulls, and there was/is nothing Dumars could do to make us championship contenders THIS season.

We'll still be good, a 50 win team, maybe even win the division if we get some breaks, and probably lose in the 2nd round. But we're not winning the championship this season.

I'll be rooting for whomever ORL plays.

The Orl pick is top 5 protected.

the funny thing is, we would be no closer to a title if we had brought ben back.

i think people assume all too quickly that if ben came back we'd be ready to win another title. on the contrary, we would be prolonging the reshaping of this team (which we have now slowly started) and would be just as disappointed NEXT year.

we would then realise once again that ben is not half the player he once was, and that the way the game is being officiated makes him even less valuable and more of a glaring weakness on offense.

we are one good move away from being a true contender. in the meantime, here's to hoping we actually start to develop our bench and young players for the future, all the while still winning 55 games.

The Orl pick is top 5 protected.

Mickey Mantle was a Yankee.

the funny thing is, we would be no closer to a title if we had brought ben back.

i think people assume all too quickly that if ben came back we'd be ready to win another title. on the contrary, we would be prolonging the reshaping of this team (which we have now slowly started) and would be just as disappointed NEXT year.

we would then realise once again that ben is not half the player he once was, and that the way the game is being officiated makes him even less valuable and more of a glaring weakness on offense.

we are one good move away from being a true contender. in the meantime, here's to hoping we actually start to develop our bench and young players for the future, all the while still winning 55 games.


amen.

the funny thing is, we would be no closer to a title if we had brought ben back.
Don't buy that.

Letting Ben go meant that free agency was going to be an exercise in making up ground, not adding talent.

Say whatever you want about Ben, but he's still a top 10 center in the NBA and we lost that at the cost of the MLE to fill a roster spot. I feel pretty confident saying that Nazr might generously be top 20 and Davis top 30.

It's fun watching the team lose in the 2nd round if they are improving. Not so much when they are going backwards.

And the East isn't weak. Miami is still a force. Cleveland is coming on, NJ can be dangerous, Milwaukee might be better with Charlie V, and Chicago of course keeps getting better and better. That's not to mention that Washington and Indiana are decent second tier teams with Toronto and Atlanta improving. This is not the Eastern Conference circa 2004 with only Indy, Detroit and New Jersey.

We were the most efficient offense in the NBA, and people forget that because we went cold late in the playoffs. Our offense was even better than Phoenix's on a per-posession basis. We were the best passing team, the best scoring team, and the best team in the league at taking care of the ball.

There's no reason to think we won't be even better than that next year, because we aquired two things we didn't have last year that opponents exploited in the playoffs: a dump-off option inside, and a slashing scorer off the bench.

The league is getting away from Ben Wallace. I don't think we'd be any closer to contending with a player than can be exploited so easily under the new officiating.

After the All-Star break, the team degraded performance wise up to and through the playoffs.

It was the initial hot start that set all of the statistical trends. Contrast that with 2004 and 2005 when the team got better as the season wore on and went into the playoffs with a lot of momentum.

Wise fans know that it's not how you start, it is how you finish.

Um, we were 21-6 after the all-star break, before our last four games when we rested everybody.

We're a middle of the pact team in the East. We barely got out of the 2nd round last year and we'll be lucky to even get there this season.

Letting Ben go should have meant that we were going to reshape this team.

Instead we've begun a shift that likely won't be completed until the conclusion of next off-season (or the one after that).

Hunter, Davis, Delfino, Flip, Acker, Amir and Maxiell is a piss poor bench on paper, but the games aren't won and lost on paper.

But, even though I'm trying to be optimistic I can't call us contenders.

Miami, Dallas, San Antonio and maybe Phoenix are the legit contenders.

Every other team has serious flaws, especially in the East.

New Jersey's bigs suck, the Pacers are always injury prone, Chicago is still too young, Cleveland are coming on but Lebron can't do it all and Washington better have "internal growth" cause they've done nothing this off-season.

With my rose coloured glasses on it appears we have a very good shot to make it to the ECF. Once (if) we get to that point all bets are off because this team has a lot to prove and a lot of experience players that have won big before.

And Miami IMO is not unstoppable.

Would someone please explain to me how we had a better season than the spurs last year, smacked them in the mouth TWICE, went a round further in the playoffs, and yet they've contenders and we're not?

You can't tell me that we wouldn't be able to beat them in a playoff series.

We went a round further in the playoffs because we played in the Cavs a team with ZERO playoff experience in the 2nd round (and it took us 7 games). The Spurs played the Mavs in the 2nd (a team with a shit load of experience). And the only reason those 2 met in the 2nd round was because of the wacked out seeding since they both play in the same division. Mavs v. Spurs was the real WCF.

..and yet, Pistons vs heat was the real NBA finals....

the spurs lost to a team that didn't do any better against Miami than we did.

Again, The Spurs had a worse season last year and we kicked their ass on top of it. But they're contenders and we're not.

This has got be an act. Nobody can really be THAT stupid.

This has got be an act. Nobody can really be THAT stupid.

I've been saying that about you for years....

They did not replace Manu with Lindsey Hunter.

Would someone please explain to me how we had a better season than the spurs last year, smacked them in the mouth TWICE, went a round further in the playoffs, and yet they've contenders and we're not?

You can't tell me that we wouldn't be able to beat them in a playoff series.

So the team that is starting this season was better than the Spurs last season?

Really?

Nazr and Flip Murray were here last season? Ben was a Bull?

Did I miss something?

Would someone please explain to me how we had a better season than the spurs last year, smacked them in the mouth TWICE, went a round further in the playoffs, and yet they've contenders and we're not?

You can't tell me that we wouldn't be able to beat them in a playoff series.

So the team that is starting this season was better than the Spurs last season?

Really?

Nazr and Flip Murray were here last season? Ben was a Bull?

Did I miss something?

The old-ass Spurs aren't going to be better than they were last year, either. Half their team is ancient and they replaced their only remaining center with Jackie Butler.

I don't see them being anywhere near as good as they were last year. Outside of their big three, the supporting cast is going to fall off.

Kstat: Did you actually forget we had Ben last season?

WTF is going on here?

This has got be an act. Nobody can really be THAT stupid.

I've been saying that about you for years....

You're a fucking retard. Every game the Pistons lost to the Heat was a good ol fashioned ass whoopin. 3 of the Mav's 4 losses to the Heat were by 3 points or less. The Mavs played waaaaaaaaaaaay better against the Heat than we ever did.

Would someone please explain to me how we had a better season than the spurs last year, smacked them in the mouth TWICE, went a round further in the playoffs, and yet they've contenders and we're not?

You can't tell me that we wouldn't be able to beat them in a playoff series.

So the team that is starting this season was better than the Spurs last season?

Really?

Nazr and Flip Murray were here last season? Ben was a Bull?

Did I miss something?

Gaystats the one missing something (a few chromosomes to be exact).

This has got be an act. Nobody can really be THAT stupid.

I've been saying that about you for years....

You're a fucking retard. Every game the Pistons lost to the Heat was a good ol fashioned ass whoopin. 3 of the Mav's 4 losses to the Heat were by 3 points or less. The Mavs played waaaaaaaaaaaay better against the Heat than we ever did.

Yeah, losing 4 straight to the Heat and getting eliminated on their home court sure was waaaaaay better....

Kstat: Did you actually forget we had Ben last season?



I think at some point, Ben Wallace forgot Ben Wallace was on the team last season.

But that's another story.

3 of those losses came down to the last play you tard. We had no shot at winning ANY of the 4 games we lost against the Heat. The Mavs were a shot here, a made, FT there and no phantom foul sending Wade to the line away from beating the Heat in 5. Big difference.

Kstat: Did you actually forget we had Ben last season?

WTF is going on here?

No one knows. Its weird, like he has some master thesis he needs to support despite the logic staring him in the face.

Kstat: Forget WOD and answer me.

Was Ben a Chicago Bull last season?

Or are you actually going to claim that this Detroit Piston roster that we have now beat San Antonio twice last season?

Need answer on that, cause I wanna see how deep the stupidity goes.

Kstat: Forget WOD and answer me.

Was Ben a Chicago Bull last season?

Or are you actually going to claim that this Detroit Piston roster that we have now beat San Antonio twice last season?

Need answer on that, cause I wanna see how deep the stupidity goes.


Um, we didn't have Flip Murray last year.

3 of those losses came down to the last play you tard. We had no shot at winning ANY of the 4 games we lost against the Heat. The Mavs were a shot here, a made, FT there and no phantom foul sending Wade to the line away from beating the Heat in 5. Big difference.

We were in position to win games 3 AND 4 in Miami before Riley went to hack-a-ben and everything went to hell.

THe only game we never had a chance to win was game 6.

Kstat: Did you actually forget we had Ben last season?



I think at some point, Ben Wallace forgot Ben Wallace was on the team last season.

But that's another story.

Nice attempted side-step - but I caught it anyway.

I need an ECW crowd up in here to chant "You Fucked Up", "You Fucked Up"

Or are you actually going to claim that this Detroit Piston roster that we have now beat San Antonio twice last season?

No, I'm saying the roster we have no is still more than capable of beating them.

I'm sorry you're incapable of reading that, but whatever.

3 of those losses came down to the last play you tard. We had no shot at winning ANY of the 4 games we lost against the Heat. The Mavs were a shot here, a made, FT there and no phantom foul sending Wade to the line away from beating the Heat in 5. Big difference.

We were in position to win games 3 AND 4 in Miami before Riley went to hack-a-ben and everything went to hell.

THe only game we never had a chance to win was game 6.

You know what really makes these posts sad is knowing that Bush is going to veto that stem cell research bill. All hope of helping you is lost.

Ben only took 2 FT's in game 4 and how the fuck can you blame the bang a Ben for the Heat shooting 60% in game 3?

This is strange thinking because as far as I can see, Dallas and Phoenix are the teams to beat in the West, not San Antonio.

This is like saying, "We can beat the Pacers". Whoopity doo!

I said San Antonio were contenders.


Would someone please explain to me how we had a better season than the spurs last year, smacked them in the mouth TWICE, went a round further in the playoffs, and yet they've contenders and we're not?

You can't tell me that we wouldn't be able to beat them in a playoff series.

I called you on that moronic post.

You come back with


No, I'm saying the roster we have no is still more than capable of beating them.

I'm sorry you're incapable of reading that, but whatever.

I'm incapable of reading?

Um, you said we beat them last season and had a better season. I said it's a different team now, so you switch it and claim "I'm saying the roster we have NOW is still more than capable of beating them"

That's not what you said in the beginning, so don't fucking act like you did.

And, microwave I named Phoenix and Dallas as well.

And I seriously doubt the Spurs are at Pacer level. But that's just IMO

the funny thing is, we would be no closer to a title if we had brought ben back.

i think people assume all too quickly that if ben came back we'd be ready to win another title. on the contrary, we would be prolonging the reshaping of this team (which we have now slowly started) and would be just as disappointed NEXT year.

we would then realise once again that ben is not half the player he once was, and that the way the game is being officiated makes him even less valuable and more of a glaring weakness on offense.

we are one good move away from being a true contender. in the meantime, here's to hoping we actually start to develop our bench and young players for the future, all the while still winning 55 games.

you've got ~14 more weeks of being able to say this, and i've got no rebuttle.

but no saying 'he wouldnt have done that here' when ben is a dominant force next year.

The bottom line is I don't think the Spurs are a better team than we are right now, and if we aren't contenders, they sure as hell aren't either.

They've got a top 5 player, 2 all star cailber players around him, a DPOY year canidate and a far superior coach. They're better.

They've got a top 5 player, 2 all star cailber players around him, a DPOY year canidate and a far superior coach. They're better.

They've got 3 all-star calibur players, and we have 4. You can argue that they have a superstar to make up the difference, but we've got better frontcourt depth and Rasheed consistently give Duncan prolems.

Their coach also got ass-fucked last year by Avery Johnson. He's still a very good coach, but he's hardly unbeatable.

How many teams in the NBA, for that matter, have FOUR guys that are all-star calibur?

ass fucked? all ginobli had to do was not foul and spurs are probably back to back nba champs this year, even with duncan's plantar fasciitis.

ass fucked? all ginobli had to do was not foul and spurs are probably back to back nba champs this year, even with duncan's plantar fasciitis.

Poppovich tried to go up and down the floor with sacramento. Then he tried to go up and down the floor with dallas. Both were big mistakes.

Had he not been outcoached, San Antonio probably DOES win thats eries.

Now Pop is just a good coach! LMFAO! Flip got ass fucked in the 2nd round by a rookie coach in Mike Woodson who had a team full of playoff virgins. The Spurs are more talented and better coached than we are.

ass fucked? all ginobli had to do was not foul and spurs are probably back to back nba champs this year, even with duncan's plantar fasciitis.

That's the best point of this entire thread.

Duncan stunk last year, by his standards.

Now Pop is just a good coach! LMFAO!

Joe Dumars is just a good GM! LMFAO!


Flip got ass fucked in the 2nd round by a rookie coach in Mike Woodson who had a team full of playoff virgins. The Spurs are more talented and better coached than we are.

Oh yeah, who won that Cavs series anyway?

Damn, you lay it on thick Kstat.

Either you have serious connections to the franchise or you are clearly blinded by the bullshit.

I stand by my opinion that the Spurs are contenders.

I stand by my opinion that we're pretenders.

I stand by my opinion that Kstat is in need of serious help.

Dude, take a break and get drunk or something.

Please!

We'll see who's laughing next season.

I stand my opinion that the Spurs will go no farther than we will next season.

I also stand by my opinion that we're a better team than they are right now.

If they get Maglore or a center that can walk and chew gum at the same time, that might change things.

Damn, you lay it on thick Kstat.

Either you have serious connections to the franchise or you are clearly blinded by the bullshit.

That'd be the latter, Pharaoh.

My only prediction this season is that every poster on this board gets into a pissing contest with KStat, derailing 15 to 20 potentially good threads.

We will at you for being a douche bag.

Now Pop is just a good coach! LMFAO!

Joe Dumars is just a good GM! LMFAO!

He's great at trades and free agency when not shackled by a cheap ass owner. He flat out sucks at the draft.


Flip got ass fucked in the 2nd round by a rookie coach in Mike Woodson who had a team full of playoff virgins. The Spurs are more talented and better coached than we are.


Oh yeah, who won that Cavs series anyway?

We needed 7 games to beat a rookie coach with a roster full of playoff virgins and that's Flip's greatest triumph as a coach. You need a CAT scan pronto.

We'll see who's laughing next season.

I stand my opinion that the Spurs will go no farther than we will next season.


LMFAO! What a bold statement. The west is fucking loaded. The Heat are the only team in the East in the that can win anything. The Spurs will be playing the Mavs or Suns in the 2nd round. If the Spurs lose to the one of those teams and we lose to the Nets, Bulls or Cavs you'll claim you were right. What a joke.

So the Spurs will go no further than we will next season, but you believe we're better?

Then shouldn't we go further than them, especially considering they have to deal with the legit contenders Dallas and Phoenix?

Nice way to cover yourself.

We'll see who's laughing next season.

I stand my opinion that the Spurs will go no farther than we will next season.


LMFAO! What a bold statement. The west is fucking loaded. The Spurs will be playing the Mavs or Suns in the 2nd round. The Heat are the only team in the East in the that can win anything.


...so you're saying the spurs probably aren't contenders then?

I mean, if they were contenders, it'd be a bold statement......

And dont give me the "the west is fucking loaded" bullshit. This isn't 2002. It's a 3-team race at BEST.

So the Spurs will go no further than we will next season, but you believe we're better?

Then shouldn't we go further than them, especially considering they have to deal with the legit contenders Dallas and Phoenix?

Nice way to cover yourself.

I think both teams are on track to go exactly as far in the playoffs as last year.

Spurs won't have to get screwed by the playoff format this year, because I think Phoenix is better than they are as well.

It's a 3 team race in the West.

It's a 1 team race in the East.

Add into that the lower 4 seeds in the East wouldn't have made the playoffs in the west last year.

The West is fucking loaded by comparison.

LMMFAO - Which 3 teams are contenders in the West, Kstat?

C'mon and say it - it's 6 fucking pages already.

And yes, the Spurs losing to Dallas or Phoenix in the second round is far more impressive than us losing to New Jersey or Cleveland or Chicago in the second.

Fuck, a child could understand that.

Are you incapable of reading the posts or do you actually close your eyes as you scroll?

LMMFAO - Which 3 teams are contenders in the West, Kstat?

C'mon and say it - it's 6 fucking pages already.

And yes, the Spurs losing to Dallas or Phoenix in the second round is far more impressive than us losing to New Jersey or Cleveland or Chicago in the second.

Fuck, a child could understand that.

Are you incapable of reading the posts or do you actually close your eyes as you scroll?

In what fucking universe did I say we'd lose to Chicago or New Jersey in the playoffs?

Come on, seriously.

You said that we'd have to go a round further, and I agreed and said we would now all of a sudden THAT isn't good enough?

Nice way to cover yourself.

LMMFAO - Which 3 teams are contenders in the West, Kstat?

C'mon and say it - it's 6 fucking pages already.

And yes, the Spurs losing to Dallas or Phoenix in the second round is far more impressive than us losing to New Jersey or Cleveland or Chicago in the second.

Fuck, a child could understand that.

Are you incapable of reading the posts or do you actually close your eyes as you scroll?
I can undestand that.


As for the pistons, I will shocked if this team gets higher than the 7th seed this season. I don't see them being contenders unless we somehow get a superstar.

LMMFAO - Which 3 teams are contenders in the West, Kstat?

C'mon and say it - it's 6 fucking pages already.

And yes, the Spurs losing to Dallas or Phoenix in the second round is far more impressive than us losing to New Jersey or Cleveland or Chicago in the second.

Fuck, a child could understand that.

Are you incapable of reading the posts or do you actually close your eyes as you scroll?

In what fucking universe did I say we'd lose to Chicago or New Jersey in the playoffs?

Come on, seriously.

You said that we'd have to go a round further, and I agreed and said we would now all of a sudden THAT isn't good enough?

Nice way to cover yourself.

Christ almighty!

If we lose int he 2nd round it'll be to Dallas or the Suns.

If we lose in the 2nd round it'll be to Chicago, the Cavs or the Nets.

You said the Spurs would go no further than we would in the playoffs. We're just pointing out the massive built in cop out your claim has.

I will shocked if this team gets higher than the 7th seed this season.


...and you guys wonder why I like to antagonize you....

Christ almighty!

If we lose int he 2nd round it'll be to Dallas or the Suns.

If we lose in the 2nd round it'll be to Chicago, the Cavs or the Nets.

You said the Spurs would go no further than we would in the playoffs. We're just pointing out the massive built in cop out your claim has.

Funny, according to the ben wallace fanboys, chicago is earmarked for the finals. Now all of a sudden if we beat them it means nothing?

At least pick a side and stick with it, people.

See, this is why I love WOD.

No bullshit, just honest fucking opinions.

The fact that I agree has nothing to do with it.

LMFAO!!!! Gaystat pretty much everyone agree's the East is a one race team you fucking idiot. Now you are making up imaginary posters claims that Chicago is contender to further your bullshit claim. Get the fuck outta here. Go back to WC and jerk off with Newman.

And Kstat side steps again.

Go off on Steve for his foolish 7th seed prediction all you like, but go off on him, not an entire group, or 3 people. It's just his opinion.

And the Ben Wallace fanboys?

Last time I looked I didn't support paying him $15mil per season. I stated I don't think Chicago is bound for the Finals.

Basically I picked my side and I've stuck to it.

i'm not thrilled with mohammed either. but ben crippled our offense and was not near the player he once was on defense. i love the guy but i don't think his loss is so bad. especially given that i didn't see us winning another title with that cast we had.

you're absolutely right- there are plenty of up-and-coming hungry young athletic teams with dynamic offensive stars.

all the MORE reason that losing ben isn't as bad as some say. we need to diversify. not saying that nazr will be that guy, but paying ben a ton of money to have teams play 5 on 4 against us, or for him to have to be taken out of games late in the playoffs, or to watch other teams retooling with young athletic scorers while we try to play a style of ball that is being outlawed by the nba.......makes little sense IMO.

but anyway, i apologise for turning this into a ben wallace thread again.

bottom line, i don't think we would truly contend next year either. adding talent was not the only thing we needed. we clearly had a problem with the current makeup of our team, as our complete collapse in the playoffs showed.

a certain player who will remain nameless was being greatly expolited on one end of the floor while not playing near his capability at the other end. but more so, a certain player did not look interested in playing for flip saunders anymore, and did not bring the hunger and intensity we needed so badly from him.

sometimes you have to take a step back to take a big step forward. if we're smart in how we progress from here, we can take that big step forward and catch up to the rest of the 'new nba'.

How exactly do we take that big step forward? We have no cap space and no assests to deal for a superstar. There is also a good chance we'll lose Chauncey this next off-season.

Teams didn't play us 5 on 4 in 2004 or 2005.

That is Palace-rhetoric trumpeted by the newspapers and radio to ease the plebians into believing that losing Ben was best for the team and that he didn't deserve a fat deal.

We played 5 on 4 because Flip's system has never featured a center in the paint. They are used almost exclusively as screeners in the flex.

The game was also officiated differently in 2004 and 2005.

Ben was wide open in flip's offense all the damn time, but nobody ever passed him the ball, because ben would be hacked immidiately, and that's as good as a turnover.

Replace that with Mohammed, who made a LIVING in san antonio as a safety-valve, and the defense has to be more honest.

Replace that with Mohammed, who made a LIVING in san antonio as a safety-valve, and the defense has to be more honest.
Mohammed lost his starting job as a safety valve. He's actually coming off a crap season by his own career standards. It's a good thing we locked him up for 4 years...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/labs/comp.cgi?I=mohamna01%3ANazr+Mohammed&y1=2006&C=wallabe01%3ABen+Wallace&y2=2006&s=r&t=m&submit=Compare

The offense for defense folks kill me. The rules changes came after 2004, not after 2005.

Btw, don't get too excited about Nazr's 48 minute scoring. He fouls out before he can score 14 Points or grab 12 rebounds.

You can't tell me with a straight face that the game was officiated the same in 2006 as it was in 2004 and 2005.

Nazr is a pretty good offensive player in the paint (which is where he would be) and he shoots damn near %80 from the FT line.

Plain and simple, you can't neave Nazr wide open like you could with Ben. Teams won't be able to hard-trap rip's foul line curl, which was our bread and butter last year until teams started to bring their centers out, knowing we had no way to make them pay with Ben in the game.

It forced us to to go more ISO situations where ben would be harder to double off of, and the result was our assists dwindled and our offense stunk.

Passing is what makes the flex offense work, not shooting. If you can force the other team into an option they won't pass to, it's curtains.

when i think of "pretenders", i think of teams that people think will fare well, but just look good on paper.

i don't think ANYONE outside of a few on Detroit will pick the Pistons to come out of the East.

i actually see Detroit as a darkhorse or off-the-radar team that could make plenty of noise in the playoffs. if they are really do commit to developing the bench and a deep, potent rotation......come playoff time, they might be a lower seed and take down a team like Miami. i like being the underdogs again. feels like home :D

Passing is what makes the flex offense work, not shooting. If you can force the other team into an option they won't pass to, it's curtains.
So all season this potent offense that was the toast of the NBA played 4 on 5 and was fine but in the playoffs, all of those missed open jumpers were on Ben? That Chauncey Billups couldn't buy a jumpshot was because Ben can't score?

Sorry. You're buying what is being sold, not observing with your eyes.

Ben shot 66% from the field against the Heat. Too bad he didn't see the ball more. But I'm sure you will continue to tell us how we won't miss our playoff leader in blocks, steals and rebounds. The ONLY Piston to average a double stat outside of scoring.

The ONLY Piston to average a double stat outside of scoring.

well to be fair, among Dallas, Miami, and San Antonio only one player (Duncan) averaged a double figures in rebounding.....

So all season this potent offense that was the toast of the NBA played 4 on 5 and was fine but in the playoffs, all of those missed open jumpers were on Ben? That Chauncey Billups couldn't buy a jumpshot was because Ben can't score?

Sorry. You're buying what is being sold, not observing with your eyes.


For the last time.

Our playoff offense after round 2 was DIFFERENT than the offense that had been working all year for us, because we were forced to go to ISO-ball to keep them from trapping off of ben wallace. If took everyone out of rythem, and KILLED our passing game, which is the lifeblood of a flex offense.

I won't repeat it again.

Ben shot a high percentage against Miami because he never got the ball in any position other than a wide-open dunk with little chance of a hack. We learned that lesson already..

kstat, i agree that our offense was completely different.....but my thoughts are the Pistons were hell bent on isolating on "mismatches" and playing one-on-one ball. something this team is NOT good at.

all regular season long, the offense was full of passing and assists. come playoff time, we were watching Chauncey playing one-on-one vs a switching bigman or Rip posting up a smaller guard. all the ball movement seemed to disappear.

The ONLY Piston to average a double stat outside of scoring.
well to be fair, among Dallas, Miami, and San Antonio only one player (Duncan) averaged a double figures in rebounding.....
The Heat also had Dwyane Wade who is a triple double threat, and Shaq who is good for nearly 9 rebounds a game.

The Pistons with a diversity in the stat load lost a major piece. We can't look off a block and a steal a game. That is potentially 4 more points per game.

kstat, i agree that our offense was completely different.....but my thoughts are the Pistons were hell bent on isolating on "mismatches" and playing one-on-one ball. something this team is NOT good at.

all regular season long, the offense was full of passing and assists. come playoff time, we were watching Chauncey playing one-on-one vs a switching bigman or Rip posting up a smaller guard. all the ball movement seemed to disappear.

We weren't isolating mismatches in games 1 and 2 vs the Cavs. It wasn't till they brought illgauskus over to clog the foul line that we had to go away from our passing game and go to post-ups and ISOs.

1. the game has had the same set of rules for 2 years. reason why everyone is bitching is because the pistons played D with their hands instead of their feet vs. miami (dead legs). and even if miami was getting the benefit of the whistle (they were), it wasnt due to 'new rules' (ie, we would legitimately take a charge. they would illigitimately take a charge, but both teams would get a whistle).

2. your talking out of your ass when you say we were forced to go iso to keep them from trapping off ben. in fact, that doesnt make any sense. it would make sense if this were 6 years ago when illigal defense was called, not in 2006. the reason we went iso was cuz no one had the legs to move on offense (dead legs again).

3. nazr's nickname is 'stonehands'. yes, he can make a ft. but no, he cant catch a ball. if you think he's going to lead our offense to glory, your kidding yourself.

1. We didnt just decide we were tired to score against cleveland after scoring 300 points in game 2. Tha's preposterous.

Anybody with half a brain could see what they were doing to disrupt our offense. Illgauskus was trapping everything around the FT line after game 2.

2. Nazr absolutely has problems holding on to passes. But when he catches the ball, he has no problem scoring down low.

I'm sorry, but I can't picture Nazr's hands becoming such a problem that teams don't cover him.

Pretenders... One of the youngins (or Flip Murray I guess) would really have to breakout and have a big year. Nazr would have to exceed all expectations by a good amount.

Flip Saunders would have to morph into a decent coach....

In other words, no chance.

2. Nazr absolutely has problems holding on to passes. But when he catches the ball, he has no problem scoring down low.

I'm sorry, but I can't picture Nazr's hands becoming such a problem that teams don't cover him. When I am open at the arc, and the wind is blowing from the west, particularly after high noon, I am a pretty decent 3 point marksman.

I can see Chauncey start to look off Nazr because he is not a good screener, and those turnovers kill CBs stats come payday.

When I am open at the arc, I am a pretty decent 3 point marksman.

I can see Chauncey start to look off Nazr because he is not a good screener, and those turnovers kill CBs stats come payday.

Considering that Nazr as the 5th option will be open most of the time down low just like ben was, what's your point?

And yes, brilliant conspiracy theory: Chauncey's afraid of Nazr not holding on to the ball for fear of turnovers. Please.

More often than not, he'll catch the ball and either score or get to the line. Chauncey would get more assists than turnovers.

1. We didnt just decide we were tired to score against cleveland after scoring 300 points in game 2. Tha's preposterous.

Anybody with half a brain could see what they were doing to disrupt our offense. Illgauskus was trapping everything around the FT line after game 2.

2. Nazr absolutely has problems holding on to passes. But when he catches the ball, he has no problem scoring down low.

I'm sorry, but I can't picture Nazr's hands becoming such a problem that teams don't cover him.

alright. fine.

but our offense was better with ben ON the floor, spurs' offense was just as good with nazr OFF the floor. EXPLAIN: and claiming that rasho is some sort of offensive force is not an acceptable answer.

1. We didnt just decide we were tired to score against cleveland after scoring 300 points in game 2. Tha's preposterous.

Anybody with half a brain could see what they were doing to disrupt our offense. Illgauskus was trapping everything around the FT line after game 2.

2. Nazr absolutely has problems holding on to passes. But when he catches the ball, he has no problem scoring down low.

I'm sorry, but I can't picture Nazr's hands becoming such a problem that teams don't cover him.

alright. fine.

but our offense was better with ben ON the floor, spurs' offense was just as good with nazr OFF the floor. EXPLAIN: and claiming that rasho is some sort of offensive force is not an acceptable answer.

+/- stats dont always tell the whole story, because they don't take into account meaningless garbage time (which both the pistons and spurs had a ton of), and Poppovich changes his centers around like the wind, so it's hard to tell where they came from.

Again, Ben was fine in our offense, until teams started to gameplan and started to completely sell-out in order to force us to pass it to ben inside. When that happaned, things went downhill fast.

the funny thing is, we would be no closer to a title if we had brought ben back.

i think people assume all too quickly that if ben came back we'd be ready to win another title. on the contrary, we would be prolonging the reshaping of this team (which we have now slowly started) and would be just as disappointed NEXT year.

we would then realise once again that ben is not half the player he once was, and that the way the game is being officiated makes him even less valuable and more of a glaring weakness on offense.

we are one good move away from being a true contender. in the meantime, here's to hoping we actually start to develop our bench and young players for the future, all the while still winning 55 games.

From what I remember, the idea all along this offseason was to sign Ben, and bring in Bonzi Wells for the slasher that we need to win multiple championships.

Am I remembering things wrong?

If not, then your wrong, HW.

the plan all season was to win the title. but this team fell WAY short of that goal after collapsing in the playoffs. yes, i know we made it to the ECF.

but we looked like a team in turmoil and one that needed to be shaken up IMO.

so no- i wouldn't agree with that assessment. i said something had to change and truthfully, i think this may help in the longrun. i think sheed may need to go too, but let's see how he plays this year.

not only has the nba changed how it is officiating the game (which GREATLY affects ben) but ben has not been half the player he was back in 2004. the result is that he is not near as valuable as he once was. he did not bring the same intensity and emotion we have always needed from him.

speculate all you want as to why that was the case, but the bottom line is that he did not look happy out there and it showed in his performance. IMO it was time for a change and it's very possible things could have gotten even worse.

i personally think flip is a huge problem too, but that's another story. we had the team necessary to get it done and it didn't work, for various reasons. but the bottom line is, if we fell so horribly short of accomplishing exactly what our goal had been all year long, then IMO there's a much bigger issue and there's no way we would've got it done in 2006-07 either.

i think much of that has to do with our mental approach to the game and our lack of intensity/sense of urgency. anyway, i could write a book on it.

the point is, we didn't get it done and maybe it's not so bad we made a change rather than overpaid horribly for a player who is half of what he once was and more importantly, was not even halfway happy playing here last year.

BTW- let's keep away from statements like "you're wrong" just because we disagree on something or have varying opinions. it's childish and takes away from the discussion IMO.

To answer the poll, we could possibly be contenders but I think its doubtful. At this point though, I still say we are a lock for the playoffs.

1. Miami
2. Chicago
3. Jersey
4. Detroit
5. Cleveland
6. Washington
7. Bucks
8. Some team that wont beat the Heat anyways

If we beat the Cavs, then we play the Heat. IF SOMEHOW we beat the Heat, then we will beat the fuck out of the Bulls and to go the Finals to contend. however, I say its doubtful but...you gotta BELEIVE

like Matt, I love being the underdogs. :cool:

There's no way to tell until we see them play.

I think we're the #3 seed at least.

2nd in the division doesn't mean #4 anymore.

Meaning we play the Bulls in round two if we get past the Cavs, not the Heat.

LOL @ 3 seed at least. For all this chirping you do about the "new rules" you'd figure a team with 3 all-star wing players like Jersey would benefit from them. We're a 4-6 seed. We'll be fortunate to get home court in the first round.

...as opposed to the three "all-star wing players" we have, plus an all-star power forward?

OK then.

Our 2 all-star wing players are jump shooters and so is our all-star PF. The Net's allstars attack the rim and will be able to get to the line.

Our 2 all-star wing players are jump shooters and so is our all-star PF. The Net's allstars attack the rim and will be able to get to the line.

They also can't shoot when you cut the lane off, and if you don't count Tayshaun you can't count Kidd, since he wasnt an all-star last year either.

Nevermind that they proved that inside they're still charmin-soft in the playoffs.

They also can't shoot when you cut the lane off,
you do understand we suck at "cutting the lane off".

They also can't shoot when you cut the lane off,
you do understand we suck at "cutting the lane off".

It's much easier when the other team can't shoot and make you pay.

Miami basically played straight zone the entire series vs NJ and they couldnt hit shit.

I voted "contenders", but only because we're talking about the East, here, and any team with at least a semblance of cohesive talent can crack the top four.

I'm late to this argument, but I noticed the discussion re: Ben and Nazr. Wouldn't getting the ball into the big man early, creating the "hack Ben" scenario open up the slashers for the second half? I'd expect the strategy of every game plan would be to pile up the fouls on the paint protectors, so they play more tentatively in the fourth. Then you drive drive drive, which would open up Big Ben for dunk after dunk.

At least that's what I'd do. Of course, I'm not Flip. IMO, it's all about setting up a favorable fourth quarter, and with a team like the Pistons, I'd expect you'd want lanes that don't close nearly as quickly as they did in the second.

I voted "contenders", but only because we're talking about the East, here, and any team with at least a semblance of cohesive talent can crack the top four.
Yup, that was basically why I voted "contenders" as well.

I find it hard to believe that we're still contenders. Especally with the new rules saying you cant look at LeBron or Wade on the defensive end of the court. The NBA dosnt want to have anyone stand in the way of Wade or LeBron like the Pistons stood in Jordans way for 3 or 4 years.

I voted contenders as well.

I don't know where all the doomsayers are coming from.

Every team in the NBA is flawed, but they all don't have 3 All Stars.

Our flaws just happen to be our penny-pinching, senile owner and a coach that doesn't believe in using his bench or preaching defense*, something our players just might be able to overcome.



*a better #2 PG wouldn't hurt either

I don't know where all the doomsayers are coming from.


We barely got out of the 2nd round against a team full of playoff virgins lead by a rookie head coach. We then lose a 4 time DPOY and 5-time all-star and replaced him with a guy that a few year we passed on in favor of Zelly.

I guess I'm just thinking that our poor playoff performance was an abberation, possibly a harbinger of lockeroom problems that just might be resolved now. Add in that Joe D has mandated that the bench be developed this year and I think we'll be right back in that position to take it all again this year.

I certainly don't fear the Heat, Cavs, Nets, Pacers, etc. any of them.

I don't think getting back to the Finals is a stretch by any means, and from there anything can happen. And the question was "do we have a decent chance to win it all?" So I guess that depends on what your definition of "decent" is.

I guess I'm just thinking that our poor playoff performance was an abberation,
and here i thought it was coaching.:rolleyes:

man i called it early in the year. Flip can't playoff coach. i saw phil jackson outcoach him for days and pat riley lit him up. w/o some coaching skill that matches the poppovich/riley/brown/jackson level. its going to be hard to overcome teams in the playoffs when they have flip's regular season gimmicks figured out by then.

Odds on who will win the 2006/2007 NBA Championship

San Antonio Spurs +400
Miami Heat +400
Phoenix Suns +450
Dallas Mavericks +500
Detroit Pistons +800
New Jersey Nets +1200
Chicago Bulls +1200
Cleveland Cavaliers +1500
Houston Rockets +2000
Sacramento Kings +2000
Los Angeles Lakers +3800
Memphis Grizzlies +4000
Los Angeles Clippers +4000
Indiana Pacers +4000
Denver Nuggets +4000
Boston Celtics +9500
New Orleans Hornets +10000
Washington Wizards +10000
Utah Jazz +10000
Milwaukee Bucks +10000
Golden State Warriors +10000
Orlando Magic +10000
Seattle Sonics +10000
Minnesota T-Wolves +10000
Philadelphia 76ers +10000
New York Knicks +19000
Atlanta Hawks +20000
Charlotte BobCats +20000
Toronto Raptors +20000
Portland Blazers +30000

Odds provided by Sportsbook.com

The "smart money" seems to say we're still contenders.

Note: +800 = 8 to 1

id say the smart money is on kobe and 38 to 1. if the lakers are a few good moves away from being as good as the heat next year. its definitly within reach.

keep in mind, we were 8-1 odds against the lakers when we got to the finals in 2004. those were good odds. 8-1 odds in july when we just lost ben wallace? not so good.

i want to see these odds when the season starts and when the playoffs start.

Having the 5th best odds makes you a contender

Even after the Gay/Battier swap, the Rockets still can win...interesting

Even after the Gay/Battier swap, the Rockets still can win...interesting
It's the gimpy TMac stuff that'd worries me were I a betting man.

Updated odds:

http://www.oddschecker.com/betting/mode/o/card/basketball-nba/odds/2490120x/sid/939733

We are now 6:1 and Phx has dropped below us. I guess Ron Dup put us over the top. SA is still fav @ 9-2. I guess the money is on TD's foot healing...

My money is on Dallas.

im taking my nemisis steve nash and amare's two microfractured knees. next year should be wide open, im thinking.

I changed my mind.

I'm taking either the Cavs or Heat.

The two biggest marketers of Sprite/Nike that the NBA has in its money making arsenal.

The NBA will make sure one of those two wins the title next year.

Book it.

I mean, for god's sake, all you have to do is look at the Pistons/Cavs series and/or the Pistons/Heat series and/or the Heat/Mavs series to see that those two teams are virtually unstoppable, with the refs on the floor, and the ball in Wade or LeBron's commercially endorseable hands.

damn, i wouldnt mind if i had thrown 50 bucks at those 38-1 odds on the lakers right now.

as for the rest of this thread, i'll just say no comment... but perhaps more to come. appropriate since it appears that Joe D may (hopefully) be in the process of redoing the offseason.