http://www.mlive.com/pistons/weblog/index.ssf?/mtlogs/mlive_pistons/archives/2006_07.html#161471

yay, Flip X2 (rolls eyes)

YES!!!!!!!!!!!

I love you Joe D.

NBA TITLE HERE WE COME!!!!!

Perfect, Delk was too old, and Atkins sucks. Good Joe D.

What's that load he pitched whine I hear coming from the south?



Oh that's just el Fino.

Come on, you have to admit it's nice to at least think positive for once, even if you go waaay overboard......

I think Murray is what we need: A scorer.

This way, Delfino can do what he does best, and not worry about putting points on the board. We now have someone else that can take that burden off him.

Don't look at Murray's stats in Cleveland. He was horribly-misused.

Nice.

i dont know... our bench was so anemic that this almost seems like a no brainer. but everywhere he's gone theyve been glad to see him go.

hes a classic talent that doesnt 'get it'.

Delfino=Gone.


YAY!

This way, Delfino can do what he does best

Cry.

Not quite unless Acker takes over his spot.

Sheed/Nazr/dd
Dice/Sheed/Max
Tay/Flip/amir
Rip/ fino or Acker
Billups/Hunter/Blalock

I would think that Flip would compliment Delfino more than hurt him.

Flip's a finisher, Delfino's a set-up man.

Delfino plays backup SF, Flip plays backup SG. I don't see the problem there.

You think el Fino will be happy playing 10-15 minutes a game? Ha.

i thought flip was a 1 or a 2. 3? where is that coming from?

Come on, you have to admit it's nice to at least think positive for once, even if you go waaay overboard......

I think Murray is what we need: A scorer.

This way, Delfino can do what he does best, and not worry about putting points on the board. We now have someone else that can take that burden off him.

Don't look at Murray's stats in Cleveland. He was horribly-misused.

Murray is a Chucker. Always has been, and always will be. He's a "scorer" that "scores" at a rate under 40%. He doesn't play D, and he is all about himself. He's decent in the clutch, but he will never be on the floor then, so it's pointless. Oh yea, and he sucks in the playoffs.

BTW, Delfino is gone. This is why Delfino bitched to the press again despite Mo being gone. They probably already told him about it.

would that mean Acker takes the backup role?

I would think that Flip would compliment Delfino more than hurt him.

Flip's a finisher, Delfino's a set-up man.

Delfino plays backup SF, Flip plays backup SG. I don't see the problem there.

i was thinking the same thing, but it all depends on how Flip Saunders plays them.

i swear, Delfino must have stolen the girl WOD was trying to pick up at the bar or ran over his dog, to conjure up this much hatred............

I would think that Flip would compliment Delfino more than hurt him.

Flip's a finisher, Delfino's a set-up man.

Delfino plays backup SF, Flip plays backup SG. I don't see the problem there.

Problem is, Murray is a worse shooter than Delfino is. Imagine Lindsey, Murray, and Delfino on the floor at once.... I think I just threw up a little...

and neither of them will be very good in 10 minutes per game. We've never had a bench player that was, and it's not gonna start now. Players (especially guards) need like 20 minutes. That is if you're asking them to do more than come in and defend/rebound.

how do you know what kind of a player delfino is? he's hardly played at all for the pistons. maybe he likes to gun. who knows?

I would think that Flip would compliment Delfino more than hurt him.

Flip's a finisher, Delfino's a set-up man.

Delfino plays backup SF, Flip plays backup SG. I don't see the problem there.

i was thinking the same thing, but it all depends on how Flip Saunders plays them.

i swear, Delfino must have stolen the girl WOD was trying to pick up at the bar or ran over his dog, to conjure up this much hatred............

Nah he's just been whining for 3 years that he doesn't want to be here. Why do so many people give him a free pass on that shit?

Murray is a Chucker. Always has been, and always will be. He's a "scorer" that "scores" at a rate under 40%. He doesn't play D, and he is all about himself. He's decent in the clutch, but he will never be on the floor then, so it's pointless. Oh yea, and he sucks in the playoffs.

BTW, Delfino is gone. This is why Delfino bitched to the press again despite Mo being gone. They probably already told him about it.

Murray isn't a chucker. He takes most of his shots inside 10 feet.

Again, I just said don't look at how he did in Cleveland, because they used him as a spot-up shooter, which was idiotic.

Flip isn't a good outside shooter. He's a slasher and mid-range shooter.

And oh yeah, his only playoff series was one in which (again) he was misused.

BTW, don't even begin to try to defend delfino if he bitches about this. He should be just fine with 15 mpg.

how do you know what kind of a player delfino is? he's hardly played at all for the pistons. maybe he likes to gun. who knows?

Is that a joke?

Delfino's NEVER come into a game and jacked up shots. He's a pass-first slasher.

Murray isn't a chucker. He takes most of his shots inside 10 feet.

Again, I just said don't look at how he did in Cleveland, because they used him as a spot-up shooter, which was idiotic.

Flip isn't a good outside shooter. He's a slasher and mid-range shooter.

And oh yeah, his only playoff series was one in which (again) he was misused.

BTW, don't even begin to try to defend delfino is he bitches about this. He should be just fine with 15 mpg.

kind of like how Flip Saunders seemed to use Delfino at times? [smilie=sad3.gif]

Murray isn't a chucker. He takes most of his shots inside 10 feet.

Again, I just said don't look at how he did in Cleveland, because they used him as a spot-up shooter, which was idiotic.

Flip isn't a good outside shooter. He's a slasher and mid-range shooter.

And oh yeah, his only playoff series was one in which (again) he was misused.

BTW, don't even begin to try to defend delfino is he bitches about this. He should be just fine with 15 mpg.

kind of like how Flip Saunders seemed to use Delfino at times? [smilie=sad3.gif]

Exactly. Flip's fucking clueless. What makes you think he's gonna use Murray properly if he couldn't figure it out with the other players?

Murray isn't a chucker. He takes most of his shots inside 10 feet.

Again, I just said don't look at how he did in Cleveland, because they used him as a spot-up shooter, which was idiotic.

Flip isn't a good outside shooter. He's a slasher and mid-range shooter.

And oh yeah, his only playoff series was one in which (again) he was misused.

BTW, don't even begin to try to defend delfino is he bitches about this. He should be just fine with 15 mpg.

kind of like how Flip Saunders seemed to use Delfino at times? [smilie=sad3.gif]

Delfino wasn't really used that way, he just floated around the perimeter too damn often instead of being aggressive. When his confidence goes, he stops driving the lane.

did Flip Murray spend any time in Seattle at PG?

i just remember him for his scoring outburst, back when Ray Allen got hurt.....i don't remember him as one, just trying to recall...

i can't see why anyone would be upset with this signing.

he's no lebron, but for the price we got him he's a ridiculous bargain. he is a great slasher who can get to the hoop and get to the line. and he can score in bunches.

i think he can be a nice player for us. and again, considering what we were able to sign him for...it's a win-win situation.

who else could we have gotten with the BAE? i was expecting some aging, injury-prone has-been truthfully. but instead we got a young athletic scorer who brings a dimension to our team that we are in great need of.

yes, he is a very streaky shooter. but we can utilise him in ways to make the most of his STRENGTHS.

i'm shocked we were able to get him at such a bargain deal.

did Flip Murray spend any time in Seattle at PG?

i just remember him for his scoring outburst, back when Ray Allen got hurt.....i don't remember him as one, just trying to recall...

He's a back-up 2/3. He's not going to play PG. Flip and Delfino will duke it out for minutes at the 2 and 3.

Delfino will lose.

Then he will cry.

^^ i agree with Higherwarrior. i'm glad we were able to land someone. my biggest concern now is how Flip puts together this bench squad as a unit.

i can't see why anyone would be upset with this signing.

he's no lebron, but for the price we got him he's a ridiculous bargain. he is a great slasher who can get to the hoop and get to the line. and he can score in bunches.

i think he can be a nice player for us. and again, considering what we were able to sign him for...it's a win-win situation.

who else could we have gotten with the BAE? i was expecting some aging, injury-prone has-been truthfully. but instead we got a young athletic scorer who brings a dimension to our team that we are in great need of.

yes, he is a very streaky shooter. but we can utilise him in ways to make the most of his STRENGTHS.

i'm shocked we were able to get him at such a bargain deal.


Because some people have to be negative, I guess.....

I agree, this is better than anything we could have hoped for, for the BAE.

kind of hard to jack up shots when you only play for 2 minutes at a time. carlos is a rhythm player that never was alloud to get into a rhythm. what happens if he gets in a rhythm and actually plays HIS game? know one (except, apparantly you) has seen much of this. the dude has played 1000 minutes in 2 years. thats nothing. its a little early to be calling delfino a setup man, or anything else, for that matter.

We should have brought Delk back instead of Lindsey if we were going this route. Now our bench is filled with a bunch of guys who can't shoot for shit. You need a couple guys who can shoot to open up the driving lanes.

You're right. After 20 minutes on the floor, he starts snorting cocaine on the scorer's table and begins spontaniously combusting.

i can't see why anyone would be upset with this signing.


because every team he's played on has been glad to see him go. he's well known for his horrible shot selections, being a black hole, and not playing D.

not saying he wont be a boost, but there are going to be plenty of times where you'll want him off the court.

We should have brought Delk back instead of Lindsey if we were going this route. Now our bench is filled with a bunch of guys who can't shoot for shit. You need a couple guys who can shoot to open up the driving lanes.

Please tell me you didn't just imply that this team needs MORE jump-shooters...LMAO

I wish Gutz was here, for once.

What's the deal with Ronald "Flip" Murray? Some speculation he's the one the Pistons are seriously looking at?

Like they need another shooter.

What'd I tell ya (gleaming with pride like he just won the fucking lottery).

Flip just wants another "Flip" around, so he can point a finger when the media slams a "Flip" for all of the pistons troubles.

i can't see why anyone would be upset with this signing.


because every team he's played on has been glad to see him go.

You mean like the Sonics.....and the cavs....and the sonics...and the cavs...?

"every team" lol

Every team chauncey played for before us was happy to see him go too.

The Wizards threw a party when they got stack for Rip.

kind of hard to jack up shots when you only play for 2 minutes at a time. carlos is a rhythm player that never was alloud to get into a rhythm. what happens if he gets in a rhythm and actually plays HIS game? know one (except, apparantly you) has seen much of this. the dude has played 1000 minutes in 2 years. thats nothing. its a little early to be calling delfino a setup man, or anything else, for that matter.
i agree 100%. in fact, the only guys who seem to do well in spot minutes are the "lesser talented" energy players. guys like Mo Evans who come and just crash the offensive board and spot up for threes. nothing wrong with that of course, but i (along w/ b-diddy and others) think that Delfino's impact in made when he's allowed to get into a rhythm and study what's happening on the floor. that's when he'll get an important steal, the pass that leads to an assist, or make a solid defensive play to prevent a score. i'd really like to see Flip and Delfino compliment each others' games.

t i (along w/ b-diddy and others) think that Delfino's impact in made when he's allowed to get into a rhythm and study what's happening on the floor. that's when he'll get an important steal, the pass that leads to an assist, or make a solid defensive play to prevent a score. i'd really like to see Flip and Delfino compliment each others' games.


Actually, no.

According to b-diddy, you can't talk about what kind of player delfino is, because he has yet to play 30 MPG.

We should have brought Delk back instead of Lindsey if we were going this route. Now our bench is filled with a bunch of guys who can't shoot for shit. You need a couple guys who can shoot to open up the driving lanes.
Please tell me you didn't just imply that this team needs MORE jump-shooters...LMAO

I wish Gutz was here, for once.

yeah, we can easily remedy that by mixing in guys like Rip and Chauncey (shooters) w/ the bench. we don't need all 5 bench guys out at once.

t i (along w/ b-diddy and others) think that Delfino's impact in made when he's allowed to get into a rhythm and study what's happening on the floor. that's when he'll get an important steal, the pass that leads to an assist, or make a solid defensive play to prevent a score. i'd really like to see Flip and Delfino compliment each others' games.

Actually, no.

According to b-diddy, you can't talk about what kind of player delfino is, because he has yet to play 30 MPG.

i guess i took b-diddy's statement one step further. i still believe what i wrote, though.

We should have brought Delk back instead of Lindsey if we were going this route. Now our bench is filled with a bunch of guys who can't shoot for shit. You need a couple guys who can shoot to open up the driving lanes.

Please tell me you didn't just imply that this team needs MORE jump-shooters...LMAO

I wish Gutz was here, for once.

The problem is it's all lop-sided, and Flip is too stubborn with rotations. We have a bunch of shoot-only guys in the starting lineup, and a bunch of guys that can't shoot coming off the bench. And since Flip likely won't shuffle the lineups up, the bench will be playing a lot of their time together. Leaving units with Lindsey and Murray (and Delfino?) on the floor at once. It doesn't work. Especially considering Lindsey's playmaking abilities.

If he runs lineups like last year (Lindsey, Rip, _______ (Flip or Delfino)), we'll have the same problem. Lindsey and murray's defenders will sag and kill the "Rip-curl", which is basically our only play when Chauncey isn't in the game. Either that or some ugly lookin iso.

I just think it's a bad fit. If we were going to get Murray (who can't shoot), we should have signed Delk instead, so he can at least shoot the ball and stretch the D.

I agree, this is better than anything we could have hoped for, for the BAE.


Yeah, I laughed when I heard we were looking at him, figured there was no way. CBS ranks him as the 2nd best sg FA this year.

I'm happy with the signing. The Crylos fanboys will hate this signing once the season starts.

We should have brought Delk back instead of Lindsey if we were going this route. Now our bench is filled with a bunch of guys who can't shoot for shit. You need a couple guys who can shoot to open up the driving lanes.
Please tell me you didn't just imply that this team needs MORE jump-shooters...LMAO

I wish Gutz was here, for once.
The problem is it's all lop-sided, and Flip is too stubborn with rotations. We have a bunch of shoot-only guys in the starting lineup, and a bunch of guys that can't shoot coming off the bench. And since Flip likely won't shuffle the lineups up, the bench will be playing a lot of their time together. Leaving units with Lindsey and Murray (and Delfino?) on the floor at once. It doesn't work. Especially considering Lindsey's playmaking abilities.

If he runs lineups like last year (Lindsey, Rip, _______ (Flip or Delfino)), we'll have the same problem. Lindsey and murray's defenders will sag and kill the "Rip-curl", which is basically our only play when Chauncey isn't in the game. Either that or some ugly lookin iso.

I just think it's a bad fit. If we were going to get Murray, we should have signed Delk instead, so he can at least shoot the ball and stretch the D.
all that is contingent on Flip playing with the same mindset/goals as last season: win home court advantage at all costs. the entire management, the players, and the media were all saying that if the Pistons played Game 7 at the Palace, we might have repeated. Flip wasn't in any position to sacrifice wins.

this coming season, he's on record as saying that he might sacrifice wins to get the bench developed. he never said anything like that last season.

The problem is it's all lop-sided, and Flip is too stubborn with rotations.

It's called "mixing it up."

Flip said he was going to use the bench a lot more next year. He knows the team better than he did a year ago.

TO say FLip's too stubborn to change after one season is just silly.

all that is contingent on Flip playing with the same mindset/goals as last season: win home court advantage at all costs.

this coming season, he's on record as saying that he might sacrifice wins to get the bench developed. he never said anything like that last season.

If I've learned 1 thing over the last year it's that you can never believe a single word that comes out of that guys' mouth. I don't even know if he's a good enough coach to figure it out. He'll play the top-4 like he usually does and just give Dice some more minutes. His excuse will be "with Ben gone, the starters as far as needed to step up... as far as" blah blah blah.

t i (along w/ b-diddy and others) think that Delfino's impact in made when he's allowed to get into a rhythm and study what's happening on the floor. that's when he'll get an important steal, the pass that leads to an assist, or make a solid defensive play to prevent a score. i'd really like to see Flip and Delfino compliment each others' games.


Actually, no.

According to b-diddy, you can't talk about what kind of player delfino is, because he has yet to play 30 MPG.

well, me and matt agree that delfino is a rhythm player, and cant be judged when he gets choppy minutes.

he might not agree with me that we dont really know what kind of a player deflino is (maybe he does). 95% of people had decided one way or another on darko's talent when they hadnt seen shit from him, too. i wasnt one of them. just like i wouldnt try to say what kind of a player delfino is based on such limited playing time. ive seen him drive, pass, and yes, jack up some broken jumpers from the outside...but what if he gets in rhythm and the jumper looks as good as the form? i suspect he might start jacking. but i guess just cuz this has never happened means it never will.

The problem is it's all lop-sided, and Flip is too stubborn with rotations.

It's called "mixing it up."

Flip said he was going to use the bench a lot more next year. He knows the team better than he did a year ago.

TO say FLip's too stubborn to change after one season is just silly.

So how is he gonna do it? You think he's gonna pull Rip or Tayshaun mid-way through the first? haha... Yea right. They'll be in there till a few minutes into the 2nd like normal. Flip talked and talked last year, but never changed a damn thing. Untill I see it with my own eyes, we've been lied to too many times to believe it.

And yea, I probably wouldn't have a problem with Murray if we didn't have Saunders at the helm. I don't think he's capable of making it work. Period.

well the thing is, we have the flexibility to sub flip in and out if he starts 'just jacking up horrible shots' or whatever.

we're not relying on this guy to be a huge contributor for us. he has a reduced role here and when he's cold or not playing well, we have plenty of other options.

we're not counting on him as much as his past teams have.

and again, i think if we're smart we can focus on utilising his strengths, not his weaknesses. if we use him right, he can be good for us. he's still young and is surely hungry to prove himself on a good team and help us where we need it most- slashing to the hoop.

nothing bad can come from this IMO, since i was not counting on us to sign anybody of significance with the measley BAE we had left. so to get flip is a good situation IMO.

He isn't the most well-rounded player, yeah. But don't we have delfino for that?

Give Flip 15-18 minutes, and he'll put 11-13 points on the board for you. We need that, and he can give us that.

We have Lindsey and Delfino to defend the perimeter already, and we have Delfino to defend the other team's best perimeter player.

With Flip and Dice I think we finally have a legit 1-2 scoring punch off the bench now.

He isn't the most well-rounded player, yeah. But don't we have delfino for that?

Give Flip 15-18 minutes, and he'll put 11-13 points on the board for you. We need that, and he can give us that.

No he won't. And if he does, he took 15 shots to get there.



We have Lindsey and Delfino to defend the perimeter already, and we have Delfino to defend the other team's best perimeter player.

We have a coach that doesn't recognize matchups, and doesn't seem to care about defense. Did you watch him with Mo last year? It's gonna be the same thing. Flip Murray is the new Mo Evans.

Don't look at Murray's stats in Cleveland. He was horribly-misused.
Flip's best recent stats came in Cleveland.


Flip's a finisher, Delfino's a set-up man.

Murray isn't a chucker. He takes most of his shots inside 10 feet.
Well Flip's got an absolutely abysmal FG% so he is not a finisher since (according to you) all of his shots come inside 10 feet. The guy is a career 41% shooter. He makes Lindsey Hunter look like Kelly Tripucka on offense.


Flip isn't a good outside shooter. He's a slasher and mid-range shooter.
Flip isn't a good shooter, finisher, defender, passer or ball handler. He does nothing well. That is why he is a Bi-Annual contract player. He's Mo Evans without the (miniscule) upside.


And oh yeah, his only playoff series was one in which (again) he was misused.
Is the art of research dead? He played in the '05 playoffs for Seattle. You know, that 52-30 team. He hasn't been misused, he just plain sucks eggs man. Stop pouring perfume on a pig for the love of nevitt.

Yes, Flip Murray sucks.

LMAO

If we signed John Stockton and Wilt Chamberlain you'd be complaining like a little girl that Wilt isn't a winner and Stockton can't score.

Seriously, for 1.7 million, there has to be some serious anti-Piston bitterness for anyone to hate this that much.

Fix your face.

But then again, it's no point in aruging with somebody that will hate the on any move we make, no matter what it is.

For fuck's sake, we signed him for 1.7 million, which is a frekain bargain. Even if you don't like him ,you still can't tell me that this was a horrible move.

Would it kill some of you to not hate the team this summer for two seconds?

We get rid of MoEvans and (likely) Delk and end up with Flip?

We're dipping toward 40-something win territory in a hurry...

Yes, Flip Murray sucks.

LMAO

If we signed John Stockton and Wilt Chamberlain you'd be complaining like a little girl that Wilt isn't a winner and Stockton can't score.

Fix your face.
When I point out that everything you are posting is either contradictory or just plain inaccurate, this is your best? LMAO and weak insults?

Flip is a crap player. No one wanted him. Cleveland needs a backup SG and they didn't even look at him twice for peanuts. They could have signed him as an early bird if I am right about his contract status. They wouldn't even have to waste an exception on him.

When the teams below you pass on a player, that's a clue. I would suggest you break out a metal detector, a compass and a divining rod so you can locate a few more clues.

We're dipping toward 40-something win territory in a hurry...

Possibly 30 wins.

Shit, we may not even win 10 games with only three all-stars.

Maybe if we're lucky we can avoid not having the worst record of all time.

Flip is a crap player. No one wanted him. Cleveland needs a backup SG and they didn't even look at him twice for peanuts. They could have signed him as an early bird if I am right about his contract status. They wouldn't even have to waste an exception on him.

When the teams below you pass on a player, that's a clue. I would suggest you break out a metal detector, a compass and a divining rod so you can locate a few more clues.


Um, is the art of research dead? Did you not realize they already had a backup SG?

THEY DRAFTED SHANNON BROWN.

hey, at 1.7 im fine with this move.

but flip has some serious flaws with his game. he's not a shooter, or a finisher (as you call him), he's a scorer. and not an all that great of one, either. hes incredibly streaky. im not sure he has a very high bball iq.

the price is right, though. and he can put points up, which our bench desperately needs. and maybe he'll mature and this move will look like a steal.

but beyond that, this move doesnt make us suddenly a great team again (were you serious when you said this gets us back to the championship? im suddenly thinking you were).

He makes this team a little better. That's all I said.

God forbid anybody could be happy for 2 seconds that we just filled a need.

We needed a player besides Dice that can consistently put points on the board.

Murray can consistently put points on the board off the bench, and he does it in the lane where he can draw fouls, which is another problem we've had offensively.

I don't really care about his defense or assists or whatever. We already have reserves who can fill those roles.

Flip is a crap player. No one wanted him. Cleveland needs a backup SG and they didn't even look at him twice for peanuts. They could have signed him as an early bird if I am right about his contract status. They wouldn't even have to waste an exception on him.

When the teams below you pass on a player, that's a clue. I would suggest you break out a metal detector, a compass and a divining rod so you can locate a few more clues.


Um, is the art of research dead? Did you not realize they already had a backup SG?

THEY DRAFTED SHANNON BROWN.

they actually just signed senior citizen david wesley because they didnt want flip back.

Would it kill some of you to not hate the team this summer for two seconds?
I love the kids who are allowed to suck for less than $1 million a year at Bad Boy Summer Camp.

I don't feel the need to jock ride a 41st pick whose best season came chucking for a 37-45 team.

Let me ask you, with all of your keen insight, do you feel that Joe has made the necessary moves to establish an elite 8, and improve this team for a rematch with the Heat? Has this been a successful offseason for the Pistons? Did they achieve their goals?

Wesley can play the 1 as well. He's a combo guard.

That means the chance of Banks going to Cle is now that much more unlikely...

Come on Joe, get Banks!!

how?

Wesley can play the 1 as well. He's a combo guard.

That means the chance of Banks going to Cle is now that much more unlikely...

Come on Joe, get Banks!!
We can only get Banks for a minimum contract. All of our exception money has been spent.

they actually just signed senior citizen david wesley because they didnt want flip back.

They signed him to play PG, not SG.

Keep swinging though, eventually you're bound to hit something by accident.

They signed him to play PG, not SG.

Keep swinging though, eventually you're bound to hit something by accident.
Wesley was the starting SG next to Baron Davis in Charlotte. They have 2 PGs in Eric Snow and Damon Jones.

I will laugh my ass off if Banks ends up settling for half the MLE. Not to mention the whole Butler thing. It could end up where we could have had both of them for the MLE and still had the BAE left over. THEN I could deal with signing Flip Murray. I just don't see the bench working out as is. The pieces don't fit.

This sucks, and I'm starting to think it was a case of beginners luck with Joe.

Snow, Jones, and Wesley......maybe Flip Murray was just too young for them, lol.

We could trade DD and Delfino and the Det pick, but I find it doubtful because they have enough guards...However, they do need a center.

[

Let me ask you, with all of your keen insight, do you feel that Joe has made the necessary moves to establish an elite 8, and improve this team for a rematch with the Heat? Has this been a successful offseason for the Pistons? Did they achieve their goals?

I thought we were already an elite 8 team, but then again I'm not standing on the ledge like the rest of you.

And If you think we could have done any more with the BAE, feel free to show us.

Murray isn't the final piece, but he makes this team a little better than it was without him.

There's nothing keeping Joe from going out and trying to make trades to improve this team further. Free agency was NEVER going to be our path to ring #4.

I'm satisfied with Mohammed and Flip, considering what we had to spend.

I will laugh my ass off if Banks ends up settling for half the MLE. We could have had Banks and Butler.

This sucks, and I'm starting to think it was a case of beginners luck with Joe.

Isn't Banks a restricted FA? I'm sure if someone signs him to an offer sheet at half the MLE the Wolves will match.

They signed him to play PG, not SG.

Keep swinging though, eventually you're bound to hit something by accident.
Wesley was the starting SG next to Baron Davis in Charlotte. They have 2 PGs in Eric Snow and Damon Jones.


And guess what?

They have a lot more confidence in shannon brown at the 2 than they do Damon Jones at the 1.

In case you noticed, Damon doesnt play anymore.

kstat, i think microwave was talking about a top 8 rotation, not being an elite 8 team.

This sucks, and I'm starting to think it was a case of beginners luck with Joe.

We should fire Dumars and bring in someone else. Dumars only got lucky, he sucks.

Seriously, is there any member of the Pistons you DONT hate? I'm not even being sarcastic.

kstat, i think microwave was talking about a top 8 rotation, not being an elite 8 team.

I'd put our top 9 up against most any other team's top 9.

Despite what people want to believe, we have a very good team still. One quality trade and we're back up there with Miami.

I don't even think we'd need a major upgrade, just a slight upgrade at one position.

i'm trying to think of a player equivalent of Flip Murray and all i could think of was a poor man's Ben Gordon? that's who i think of whenever people say, "he's not a shooter....he's a scorer, blah, blah".

one silver lining stat: at 3.7 FT attempts per game, Flip Murray would have been a hair behind Rip, at #3 on the Pistons:

Chauncey: 6.4 FTA
Hamilton: 3.8 FTA
Murray: 3.7 FTA
Ben Wallace: 3.6 FTA *shudder*

unfortunately, that was with 36.7 minutes a game (would have been #1 on the Pistons last season). at least he gets to the line....take it fwiw.

We could trade DD and Delfino and the Det pick, but I find it doubtful because they have enough guards...However, they do need a center.

you are correct. perhaps im behind the 8 ball on this one, but dd and delfino's contract add up to ~4.4. the mle is 5.25 (?) which is within the requried 25% (?) percent. damn, i used to know the ins and outs of the cba. anyway, i think it works. but im not sure minny does this without a pick, and im not sure we can sacrifice davis. he will probably have a big role on this team next year. plus that 5 mill on the books next year would royally fuck us when we tried to sign billups.

I will laugh my ass off if Banks ends up settling for half the MLE. We could have had Banks and Butler.

This sucks, and I'm starting to think it was a case of beginners luck with Joe.

Isn't Banks a restricted FA? I'm sure if someone signs him to an offer sheet at half the MLE the Wolves will match.

Didn't they just get Mike James? Along with T-Hud, Jaric, and their respective contracts. I don't think they have more money to throw around at PGs just because they have their rights.

kstat, i think microwave was talking about a top 8 rotation, not being an elite 8 team.
Shoot! Matt is here...

*mumbles* better behave myself *mumbles*

@ KStat ~ Damon Jones is going to make $3.8 million dollars this year, with another 2 years on his contract. They did not sign David Wesley to take his job. Damon is in fact a spot up shooter, capable of feeding the post and a pal of Lebron's.

This sucks, and I'm starting to think it was a case of beginners luck with Joe.

We should fire Dumars and bring in someone else. Dumars only got lucky, he sucks.

Seriously, is there any member of the Pistons you DONT hate? I'm not even being sarcastic.

Sorry if being a "fan" means you aren't allowed to disagree with personnel moves. Guess I'm not then. darn...

[

@ KStat ~ Damon Jones is going to make $3.8 million dollars this year, with another 2 years on his contract. They did not sign David Wesley to take his job. .

Huh?

Damon Jones LOST his job ALREADY.

They weren't playing Damon last year either.

Wesley's the backup PG, Damon never had a job to lose.

you are correct. perhaps im behind the 8 ball on this one, but dd and delfino's contract add up to ~4.4. the mle is 5.25 (?) which is within the requried 25% (?) percent. damn, i used to know the ins and outs of the cba. anyway, i think it works. but im not sure minny does this without a pick, and im not sure we can sacrifice davis. he will probably have a big role on this team next year. plus that 5 mill on the books next year would royally fuck us when we tried to sign billups.
We can include the Ronald Dupree and Mo Evans trade exceptions to get there.

But if we lose Davis, and the order from on high is to not exceed the tax threshold, how does losing our backup Center help us?

We'll become ridiculously guard heavy.

@ Matt ~ Try an aging Hubert Davis without the shooting ability or back hair.

Huh?

Damon Jones LOST his job ALREADY.
Damon Jones is the $3.8 million dollar backup PG to the $6.7 million dollar starter Eric Snow. Like when the Pistons had Arroyo backing up Billups.

Either way, they didn't sign Wesley to back up the point. HE'S NOT A POINT GUARD. He's a NATURAL SHOOTING GUARD who can handle the ball a little. This isn't fantasy basketball man.

Huh?

Damon Jones LOST his job ALREADY.
Damon Jones is the $3.8 million dollar backup PG to the $6.7 million dollar starter Eric Snow. Like when the Pistons had Arroyo backing up Billups.

Either way, they didn't sign Wesley to back up the point. HE'S NOT A POINT GUARD. He's a NATURAL SHOOTING GUARD who can handle the ball a little. This isn't fantasy basketball man.

Then what's Shannon Brown doing?

Huh?

Damon Jones LOST his job ALREADY.
Damon Jones is the $3.8 million dollar backup PG to the $6.7 million dollar starter Eric Snow. Like when the Pistons had Arroyo backing up Billups.

Either way, they didn't sign Wesley to back up the point. HE'S NOT A POINT GUARD. He's a NATURAL SHOOTING GUARD who can handle the ball a little. This isn't fantasy basketball man.

1. Stop bringing money into this. The fact damon makes more doesn't mean he plays more.

2. Wesley spent half his career as a PG in Boston.

3. If you're trying to tell me Damon Jones is more of a PG than Wesley, you need to have your head examined.

PG is almost a completely irrelevant position for the Cavs. Pretty much everything comes from what James creates anyways. Wesley if healthy is a step up from Jones at the 1. He's a vastly superior defender and a more consistent shooter.

Fun stat time!!

When Murray played less than 30 minutes in a game this year he shot 16.7% from the field! Woo hoo! He's pretty good between 30-40 minutes, but other than that... not so much. It's the same story with most players. It's a rhythm game.

Davis(or Cato) and their 2nd for Banks. They want something in return(especially a C) for Banks, and we could cleary use a PG.

Fun stat time!!

When Murray played less than 30 minutes in a game this year he shot 16.7% from the field! Woo hoo! He's pretty good between 30-40 minutes, but other than that... not so much. It's the same story with most players. It's a rhythm game.

Seriously?

That's ridiculous.

Fun stat time!!

When Murray played less than 30 minutes in a game this year he shot 16.7% from the field! Woo hoo! He's pretty good between 30-40 minutes, but other than that... not so much. It's the same story with most players. It's a rhythm game.
Seriously?

That's ridiculous.

wait, how is that possible?

he averaged 36 minutes a game. if, in less than 30, he averaged 16.7% how does his overall FG jump to 40%+ in 6 more minutes a game.

unless, his sample size of less than 30 min a game is very small.....

that might be a reflection of his streakiness. when he's on, hes not a bad player. if hes off, hes death to his team. mark my words: death to his team.

Fun stat time!!

When Murray played less than 30 minutes in a game this year he shot 16.7% from the field! Woo hoo! He's pretty good between 30-40 minutes, but other than that... not so much. It's the same story with most players. It's a rhythm game.

Seriously?

That's ridiculous.

Yep, he was 8 of 48.

1. Stop bringing money into this. The fact damon makes more doesn't mean he plays more. Damon Jones was 7 minutes away from the NBA Finals 2 seasons ago as a starting PG. Does that sound better?


2. Wesley spent half his career as a PG in Boston. Wesley played 3 seasons out of 13 in Boston. Keep swinging and you are bound to hit something.


3. If you're trying to tell me Damon Jones is more of a PG than Wesley, you need to have your head examined.
Why not? You were trying to sell a 41% shooter as a paint finisher, within 10 feet of the basket.

ONE NIGHT ONLY, CRAZY ON SALE. 50% OFF ALL CRAZY IDEAS. STUPIDITY PRICED TO MOVE. ALL INVENTORY MUST GO!

Fun stat time!!

When Murray played less than 30 minutes in a game this year he shot 16.7% from the field! Woo hoo! He's pretty good between 30-40 minutes, but other than that... not so much. It's the same story with most players. It's a rhythm game.
Seriously?

That's ridiculous.

wait, how is that possible?

he averaged 36 minutes a game. if, in less than 30, he averaged 16.7% how does his overall FG jump to 40%+ in 6 more minutes a game.

unless, his sample size of less than 30 min a game is very small.....


Yeah, something tells me that's not the whole story.

Fun stat time!!

When Murray played less than 30 minutes in a game this year he shot 16.7% from the field! Woo hoo! He's pretty good between 30-40 minutes, but other than that... not so much. It's the same story with most players. It's a rhythm game.
Seriously?

That's ridiculous.
Yep, he was 8 of 48.
what numbers are you using?

just glancing at his season stats, shows you're way off:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3639/gamelog

A whole 8 for 48.

Wow. Nice sample size.

what numbers are you using?

just glancing at his season stats, shows you're way off:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3639/gamelog

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/cleveland-cavaliers/players/ronald-murray/stats/06/5/491

Apparantly it's just from the Cavs.

alright, i did the actual calculations (not sure where 8/48 came from):

in less than 30 minutes a game last season (41 out of 76 games):

129 FGM / 329 FGA: 39% FG

A whole 8 for 48.

Wow. Nice sample size.

Look dude, you can defend him all you want. I've seen him play at every stop he's been at and he sucks. Period. He is a detriment to the team more than he is a positive. He just chucks up a bunch of shots off the dribble. He can slash, but he's not a high percentage slasher (the entire point of it). And there is no way it works in limited minutes.

alright, i did the actual calculations (not sure where 8/48 came from):

in less than 30 minutes a game last season (41 out of 76 games):

129 FGM / 329 FGA: 39% FG

What about like 10-15 minutes? I wish I could find some of the older ones to see what it was like a few years ago. He got too many minutes with the Cavs last year consistantly to judge.

I've seen him play at every stop he's been at and he sucks. Period. He is a detriment to the team more than he is a positive. He just chucks up a bunch of shots off the dribble. He can slash, but he's not a high percentage slasher (the entire point of it). And there is no way it works in limited minutes. This is bible. Put it front page, put it back page, put it anywhere.

A friend of mine from Seattle just laughed at me on the phone.

Him: "Hey, you guys got Flip Murray!"
Me: "Don't even start..."
Him: "Flip ain't that bad. He's like a blind Ray Allen."

[CLICK]

I've seen him play at every stop he's been at and he sucks. Period. He is a detriment to the team more than he is a positive. He just chucks up a bunch of shots off the dribble. He can slash, but he's not a high percentage slasher (the entire point of it). And there is no way it works in limited minutes.

As I recall, you said the same thing about Rip Hamilton...

alright, i did the actual calculations (not sure where 8/48 came from):

in less than 30 minutes a game last season (41 out of 76 games):

129 FGM / 329 FGA: 39% FG
What about like 10-15 minutes? I wish I could find some of the older ones to see what it was like a few years ago. He got too many minutes with the Cavs last year consistantly to judge.
0 - 20 min: 37% FG (16 games)
10-15 min: 33% FG (only 4 games :) )

all hail, Microsoft Excel....

i need to forward my resume to the Piston's statistical analyst..... :P

I'm not a fan of Flip Murray. Geez, this has been a bad offseason. Probably the worst 6 months of organizational stuff I've seen in a while from Joe D, from the darko trade, to losing ben, to replacing him with NAZR, to this. le sigh.

A whole 8 for 48.

Wow. Nice sample size.

I remember a smaller sample sized used to prove how worthless teh Mo-Fino combo was.


And it was right then, It was right all year long.

for the record, i'm not ecstatic about signing Flip......but at this point, i don't see us making any big splash moves.

our success is dependent on Flip Saunders finding rotations and combinations that work, and go like 8 players deep. since when do we care about how we look on paper? if the bench can click and the players can compliment each other, we're not that bad off, imo.

A whole 8 for 48.

Wow. Nice sample size.

Look dude, you can defend him all you want. I've seen him play at every stop he's been at and he sucks. Period. He is a detriment to the team more than he is a positive. He just chucks up a bunch of shots off the dribble. He can slash, but he's not a high percentage slasher (the entire point of it). And there is no way it works in limited minutes.

right, this is what im saying. there will be times when he'll look like a steal at 1.7 million. other times, you'd rather not have him on the team at all.

for the record, i'm not ecstatic about signing Flip......but at this point, i don't see us making any big splash moves.

our success is dependent on Flip Saunders finding rotations and combinations that work, and go like 8 players deep. since when do we care about how we look on paper? if the bench can click and the players can compliment each other, we're not that bad off, imo.


Ben Wallace backlash, IMO.

I think a lot of piston fans are secretly rooting for this team to fail so Flip Saunders, Joe Dumars and anyone else that had anything to do with Ben's departure can be kicked out the door.

Of course, some people simply love being negative just for the sake of being negative.

for the record, i'm not ecstatic about signing Flip......but at this point, i don't see us making any big splash moves.

our success is dependent on Flip Saunders finding rotations and combinations that work, and go like 8 players deep. since when do we care about how we look on paper? if the bench can click and the players can compliment each other, we're not that bad off, imo.


Ben Wallace backlash, IMO.

I think a lot of piston fans are secretly rooting for this team to fail.

Only to spike your KoolAide IV Kstat.
The Pistons have a worse bench now, and don't have the starting 5 to make up for it anymore.

No one is secretly rooting for the team to fail, they are openly anticipating it.

And it's only going to get worse - Signed Money Billups.

for the record, i'm not ecstatic about signing Flip......but at this point, i don't see us making any big splash moves.

our success is dependent on Flip Saunders finding rotations and combinations that work, and go like 8 players deep. since when do we care about how we look on paper? if the bench can click and the players can compliment each other, we're not that bad off, imo.


Ben Wallace backlash, IMO.

I think a lot of piston fans are secretly rooting for this team to fail.

Only to spike your KoolAide IV Kstat.

Someone's gotta fight the negative vibe in here. May as well be me.

God forbid one of us actually likes the Pistons anymore. We lose one guy and all of a sudden its like we're the Knicks.

Fun stat time!!

When Murray played less than 30 minutes in a game this year he shot 16.7% from the field! Woo hoo! He's pretty good between 30-40 minutes, but other than that... not so much. It's the same story with most players. It's a rhythm game.

needing consistently large playing time to get into a rhythm??? that's not what we want to hear in Detroit. He has to earrrrnnn those minutes! or something.

Ben Wallace backlash, IMO.

I think a lot of piston fans are secretly rooting for this team to fail so Flip Saunders, Joe Dumars and anyone else that had anything to do with Ben's departure can be kicked out the door.

Of course, some people simply love being negative just for the sake of being negative.

Not at all. I would love nothing more than to rub it in Ben's face this coming year. I don't like Flip at all, but that's not just because of the Ben thing. Joe has always been a favorite of mine. But ever since after he signed Dice he has only made moves to make this team worse. In the "prime" of the roster at that. You would think that with Ben gone, he would safely compile a roster that can work for now and the future. It seems more like he's rushing players into the fold that don't fit.

for the record, i'm not ecstatic about signing Flip......but at this point, i don't see us making any big splash moves.

our success is dependent on Flip Saunders finding rotations and combinations that work, and go like 8 players deep. since when do we care about how we look on paper? if the bench can click and the players can compliment each other, we're not that bad off, imo.


Ben Wallace backlash, IMO.

I think a lot of piston fans are secretly rooting for this team to fail.

Only to spike your KoolAide IV Kstat.

Someone's gotta fight the negative vibe in here. May as well be me.

God forbid one of us actually likes the Pistons anymore. We lose one guy and all of a sudden its like we're the Knicks.

No , we are not the Knicks. We're worse. It's one thing to screw a bad team up. It's something else entirely to destroy a championship calibur one.

Maybe I was naive, but I had this expecatation that without Bens contract, Joe might try and improve the bench to offset the loss.

It looks like we are setting up for a salary dump and rebuild after Billups bails on us.

The Pistons have a worse bench now, and don't have the starting 5 to make up for it anymore.

i don't think you can assess our bench until you actually see them play.

last season, Flip would keep the starters in, while the team was up 15 with just a few minutes to go. last season, it was win at all cost and get HCA. this season, everyone from Flip to Joe D is saying, we need to develop the bench.

Fun stat time!!

When Murray played less than 30 minutes in a game this year he shot 16.7% from the field! Woo hoo! He's pretty good between 30-40 minutes, but other than that... not so much. It's the same story with most players. It's a rhythm game.
needing consistently large playing time to get into a rhythm??? that's not what we want to hear in Detroit. He has to earrrrnnn those minutes! or something.

a couple pages back it was noted that the 16% was taken from just a few games. the actual figure is 39% FG when he played under 30 min a game last season (41 games).

for the record, i'm not ecstatic about signing Flip......but at this point, i don't see us making any big splash moves.

our success is dependent on Flip Saunders finding rotations and combinations that work, and go like 8 players deep. since when do we care about how we look on paper? if the bench can click and the players can compliment each other, we're not that bad off, imo.


Ben Wallace backlash, IMO.

I think a lot of piston fans are secretly rooting for this team to fail.

Only to spike your KoolAide IV Kstat.

Someone's gotta fight the negative vibe in here. May as well be me.

God forbid one of us actually likes the Pistons anymore. We lose one guy and all of a sudden its like we're the Knicks.

right, your a great fan, we suck. this has nothing to do with your stupid "bill davidson doesnt owe you shit" stance, where you said its fine that the pistons are going to be economical before successful.

this team lost a 5 time allstar center and replaced him with 2 guys that their teams didnt even want anymore.

i doubt anyone's rooting for this team to fail... i always have a blast in the playoffs, getting kegs at my place and having tons of people over. why wouldnt i want that? but i am pissed at this team (uber pissed) because its fucking up all over the place (flip isnt fucking up, but he leaves alot to be desired). the management group has lost any faith from me. im not going to get excited by flip murray. joe's going to have to be alot more clever than that to get me happy with this team again.

No , we are not the Knicks. We're worse.

I rest my case.

No , we are not the Knicks. We're worse.
I rest my case.
Wow, that's all it takes. [smilie=burgerking.:

No , we are not the Knicks. We're worse.

I rest my case.

And I rest my nuts on your chin.

The Knicks are flinging crap into a larger pile of crap
The Pistons are flinging crap at a priceless painting .

One actually has ramifications. No matter what the Knicks do, they are still just dealing with a big pile of crap anyway, so why does it matter.

The Pistons are ruining something worthwhile

this team lost a 5 time allstar center and replaced him with 2 guys that their teams didnt even want anymore.
i hate to pull this card, but:

Chauncey, Rip, Sheed, and Ben = all guys that teams didn't want anymore. 4 teams gave up on Chauncey. Rip was replacing a 2 time all-star and Ben was replacing a 6 time all-star. Tayshaun was passed up by 22 NBA teams. nobody wanted anything to do with McDyess.

the NBA is full of guys that, at one point in their careers, weren't wanted by someone. i'm NOT saying that joe D's working his magic right now with Flip Murray or that he's even got any magic left........but i'm not playing cynical Piston fan without even seeing this team play a game with their new philosophies.

maybe it's because the Tigers won tonight, but i'm feeling optimistic :)

i doubt anyone's rooting for this team to fail... i always have a blast in the playoffs, getting kegs at my place and having tons of people over. why wouldnt i want that? but i am pissed at this team (uber pissed) because its fucking up all over the place (flip isnt fucking up, but he leaves alot to be desired). the management group has lost any faith from me. im not going to get excited by flip murray. joe's going to have to be alot more clever than that to get me happy with this team again.
Folks were pissed when Dantley was moved for Aguirre but that move paid off fast. Trader Jack never stopped hustling the roster until he got hung up on saving William Bedford from a drug overdose and rehabbing him into a player. Still, for 8 years Jack hustled, bought low, drafted smart, traded high and tweaked endlessly.

Dice was a nice move but people conveniently forget that we lost Corliss and Memo that offseason. Derrick Coleman was a complete washout and salary dump. Then when we bring in Flip, he doesn't understand that motivating Darko is key to the future of the franchise, or that Delfino is one of Joe D's pet projects. He leaves a playoff starter in the last playoffs (Dice) to rot on the bench and alienates his DPOY.

Then this offseason, Joe puts it all in Ben's court but proudly proclaims that he has backup plans, and the 3 areas to work are FA, draft and trade. Admits that the draft will be a non-factor, but the other two are doable.

Well he just struck out in FA. Swung at a fastball low and away (Nazr) and nearly putted a ground ball (Murray). So now the spin will be that the (once again) disgruntled Delfino is the primary swingman backup, and the playoff choker Flip Murray is somehow an adequate backup with Hunter for Rip and CB. That all of the answers were always on the bench and the Pistons made soft moves because the bench was underutilized (no less by the same men who will tell us this).

Hey, we all have big emotional investments in this team, but it takes a real boob to not see that the roster has a lot less talent and experience than it did last offseason. And last year wasn't good enough. That will piss off the fans who live and die with this team like you and I for sure.

I'm pissed. Flip Murray is one of those players that should sit all summer and MAYBE get an invite to training camp. He's Bobcat material. If Blalock has any talent, why would you not backup Billups by committee and spend the BAE on a guy like Rasual Butler? A player who can score and has upside? If Delf goes sideways, there is a backup plan. Right now, if Delf sulks like a baby, our backup is Amir Johnson.

As it stands tonight, this team is maybe the 4th best in the East, and since I am probably underestimating 2 or 3 teams, it could be a squad starting the playoffs on the road. That's reality and it bites. So we vent and talk about it.

Hey, if this roster makes it to the ECF, I will personally wash Joe Dumars feet.

Hey, if this roster makes it to the ECF, I will personally wash Joe Dumars feet.

quoted for prosperity. ya never know..... :cool:

maybe it's because the Tigers won tonight, but i'm feeling optimistic :)
May the Nevitt bless your gentle soul. May his coming cleanse us of unhappiness and bring light to the bowels of the Palace. Let the wonder of the Nevitt wash away the grime of free agency leaving only the purity of on court performance for us to judge by.

You are a better fan than I for tonight Matt.

this team lost a 5 time allstar center and replaced him with 2 guys that their teams didnt even want anymore.
i hate to pull this card, but:

Chauncey, Rip, Sheed, and Ben = all guys that teams didn't want anymore. 4 teams gave up on Chauncey. Rip was replacing a 2 time all-star and Ben was replacing a 6 time all-star. Tayshaun was passed up by 22 NBA teams. nobody wanted anything to do with McDyess.

the NBA is full of guys that, at one point in their careers, weren't wanted by someone. i'm NOT saying that joe D's working his magic right now with Flip Murray or that he's even got any magic left........but i'm not playing cynical Piston fan without even seeing this team play a game with their new philosophies.

maybe it's because the Tigers won tonight, but i'm feeling optimistic :)

well, i wish i could agree with this. this sounds to me like the ramblings of sports radio where everyone passes around the koolaid.

theres a world of difference between our remaining 4 and nazr. i wont even bring flip into this. he's talented enough where you could actually make a case that he could break out with the pistons.

sheed wasnt a cast off (so to speak). no one ever doubted his talent. he was let go because of things like 'ctc'. he had worn out his welcome in portland.

chauncy was drafted 3rd. he was a pg where it took a while for him to get it (like with most young pgs). he wasnt a castoff either, im pretty sure minny wanted him back, but couldnt promise him the pt that the pistons could, which is why he chose us.

rip was an up and comer, and a 7th pick. while stack was almost universally regarded as better at the time, this was hardly picking up someone else's trash.

tay was a product of an era where the draft was upside down. (incidentally, anyone who doesnt think race plays a huge factor on how we judge players, want to defend dunleavy getting drafted 19 spots ahead of tay?).

but everyone knows all this stuff. we all also know exactly what we're getting in nazr. he's pretty much established himself as an nba player. and despite what the freep says about him, he is not 'a poor man's ben wallace with offense'. i dont think bill simmons would even label him 'a homeless man's ben wallace'.

Nazr was a starter on an NBA championship team.

If nothing else, it proves you can win games with him as your center.

i doubt anyone's rooting for this team to fail... i always have a blast in the playoffs, getting kegs at my place and having tons of people over. why wouldnt i want that? but i am pissed at this team (uber pissed) because its fucking up all over the place (flip isnt fucking up, but he leaves alot to be desired). the management group has lost any faith from me. im not going to get excited by flip murray. joe's going to have to be alot more clever than that to get me happy with this team again.
Folks were pissed when Dantley was moved for Aguirre but that move paid off fast. Trader Jack never stopped hustling the roster until he got hung up on saving William Bedford from a drug overdose and rehabbing him into a player. Still, for 8 years Jack hustled, bought low, drafted smart, traded high and tweaked endlessly.

Dice was a nice move but people conveniently forget that we lost Corliss and Memo that offseason. Derrick Coleman was a complete washout and salary dump. Then when we bring in Flip, he doesn't understand that motivating Darko is key to the future of the franchise, or that Delfino is one of Joe D's pet projects. He leaves a playoff starter in the last playoffs (Dice) to rot on the bench and alienates his DPOY.

Then this offseason, Joe puts it all in Ben's court but proudly proclaims that he has backup plans, and the 3 areas to work are FA, draft and trade. Admits that the draft will be a non-factor, but the other two are doable.

Well he just struck out in FA. Swung at a fastball low and away (Nazr) and nearly putted a ground ball (Murray). So now the spin will be that the (once again) disgruntled Delfino is the primary swingman backup, and the playoff choker Flip Murray is somehow an adequate backup with Hunter for Rip and CB. That all of the answers were always on the bench and the Pistons made soft moves because the bench was underutilized (no less by the same men who will tell us this).

Hey, we all have big emotional investments in this team, but it takes a real boob to not see that the roster has a lot less talent and experience than it did last offseason. And last year wasn't good enough. That will piss off the fans who live and die with this team like you and I for sure.

I'm pissed. Flip Murray is one of those players that should sit all summer and MAYBE get an invite to training camp. He's Bobcat material. If Blalock has any talent, why would you not backup Billups by committee and spend the BAE on a guy like Rasual Butler? A player who can score and has upside? If Delf goes sideways, there is a backup plan. Right now, if Delf sulks like a baby, our backup is Amir Johnson.

As it stands tonight, this team is maybe the 4th best in the East, and since I am probably underestimating 2 or 3 teams, it could be a squad starting the playoffs on the road. That's reality and it bites. So we vent and talk about it.

Hey, if this roster makes it to the ECF, I will personally wash Joe Dumars feet.

great post. you didnt even mention the great young talent on this team that isnt even getting it done in the summer leagues. we should atleast give them some time before we get down on this team? i dont think so.

did you know the pistons are actually raising ticket prices this offseason (from my understanding, season tix went way up)? thats alot of balls coming from bill davidson.

i've said this before, but: in 2004, i would have bet anything that this team had another championship in it, at the LEAST. suddenly, 2 quick years later and we're supposed to be happy about a team that will be happy to get out of the 2nd round? im just shocked.

great post. you didnt even mention the great young talent on this team that isnt even getting it done in the summer leagues.

Devin Harris shot %15 from the floor in summer league last year.

He also averaged 5 turnovers.

If you actually SAW one of the games, you'd have a different opinion. I know I had a totally different view of Samb and Blalock after watching them in a full game.

THen again, maybe you wouldn't.

You're right. We should all give up and petition to fire Joe Dumars.
There's no reason to root for the Pistons at all anymore.

Let's all give up and become Bulls fans.

hey, at 1.7 im fine with this move.

but flip has some serious flaws with his game. he's not a shooter, or a finisher (as you call him), he's a scorer. and not an all that great of one, either. hes incredibly streaky. im not sure he has a very high bball iq.

the price is right, though. and he can put points up, which our bench desperately needs. and maybe he'll mature and this move will look like a steal.

but beyond that, this move doesnt make us suddenly a great team again (were you serious when you said this gets us back to the championship? im suddenly thinking you were).

Serious flaws? Exactly why we got him for 1.7 million. Out bench is horrible and this lovefest everyone has with Delfino is starting to get frightening. It would have been downright scary to go into next season with Delfino, Acker, and Hunter as the only backups for the guards and small forward

great post. you didnt even mention the great young talent on this team that isnt even getting it done in the summer leagues.

Devin Harris shot %15 from the floor in summer league last year.

He also averaged 5 turnovers.

If you actually SAW one of the games, you'd have a different opinion. I know I had a totally different view of Samb and Blalock after watching them in a full game.

THen again, maybe you wouldn't.

You're right. We should all give up and petition to fire Joe Dumars.
There's no reason to root for the Pistons at all anymore.

Let's all give up and become Bulls fans.

i was 2 rows off the floor watching harris absolutely torch my wolverines not so long ago (or maybe it was). if we had a young player of his calibre in our organization, i'd ride through his growing pains without complaining at all (see my stance on darko).

without seeing much at all of jason maxiel, will blalock, or cheek samb (lol), i can confidently say all three combined do not have the talent of devin harris. and even if i want to go into complete homer, streight off of watching amir's breakaway windmill dunk, drinking the koolaid mode, he's years off.

if you think i'd get more excited if i saw samb play, i question your judgment. theres not a chance in the world this samb charachter is making our roster this year, let alone contributes. the fact you even mention him makes me wonder what kind of reality your living in.

What exactly did people expect the Pistons to do? Of Course we are a worse team than last year after losing Ben Wallace but the fact is that we are a better team right now than we were when Ben announced he was leaving.

Flips good enough to start for a playoff team last year, played great for them down the stretch on a team that almost knocked us out of the playoffs but he's not good enough to sign for 1.7 million and try to help out possibly the worst bench in the league?

If he sucks, who cares? Put him on the bench with the rest of the players that make damn near close to the league minimum and play your precious savior Carlos Delfino.

It is laughable that anyone can look at this as a BAD signing. He's 26, has shown some flashes, and came cheaply. He has flaws but was the best player available at that price by far.

I leave this board for a few months come back and you all turn into a bunch of whiny bitches.

Preach on KStat

What exactly did people expect the Pistons to do? Of Course we are a worse team than last year after losing Ben Wallace but the fact is that we are a better team right now than we were when Ben announced he was leaving.

Flips good enough to start for a playoff team last year, played great for them down the stretch on a team that almost knocked us out of the playoffs but he's not good enough to sign for 1.7 million and try to help out possibly the worst bench in the league?

If he sucks, who cares? Put him on the bench with the rest of the players that make damn near close to the league minimum and play your precious savior Carlos Delfino.

It is laughable that anyone can look at this as a BAD signing. He's 26, has shown some flashes, and came cheaply. He has flaws but was the best player available at that price by far.

I leave this board for a few months come back and you all turn into a bunch of whiny bitches.

Preach on KStat

Woooohoooo TrainWreck:cool:

i was 2 rows off the floor watching harris absolutely torch my wolverines not so long ago (or maybe it was).

You want a list of the amount of players that have torched the wolverines over the last few years?


without seeing much at all of jason maxiel, will blalock, or cheek samb (lol), i can confidently say all three combined do not have the talent of devin harris.
That makes you ignorant. Not because it isn't true, but because you said that without watching them play.


if you think i'd get more excited if i saw samb play, i question your judgment. theres not a chance in the world this samb charachter is making our roster this year, let alone contributes.

Nope. But add 50 lbs on to his frame, and he's Desagana Diop. He's got the same instincts.


the fact you even mention him makes me wonder what kind of reality your living in.

I saw him play. What's your excuse?

You make fun of him because he's from senegal and has a funny name.

Joe didnt just pull his name out of a hat. This kid DOES have NBA-level skills. He's a fantastic weak-side defender, and he's got decent rebounding instincts. What's holding him back is the fact he lacks any strength whatsoever.

Add some bulk and he'll be very useful off the bench.

What exactly did people expect the Pistons to do? Of Course we are a worse team than last year after losing Ben Wallace but the fact is that we are a better team right now than we were when Ben announced he was leaving.

Flips good enough to start for a playoff team last year, played great for them down the stretch on a team that almost knocked us out of the playoffs but he's not good enough to sign for 1.7 million and try to help out possibly the worst bench in the league?

If he sucks, who cares? Put him on the bench with the rest of the players that make damn near close to the league minimum and play your precious savior Carlos Delfino.

It is laughable that anyone can look at this as a BAD signing. He's 26, has shown some flashes, and came cheaply. He has flaws but was the best player available at that price by far.

I leave this board for a few months come back and you all turn into a bunch of whiny bitches.

Preach on KStat

Thanks.

Good to know I won't be fighting the entire board this season......

Fighting the entire board?

Whatever you say, Kstat.

For the BAE there was nothing out there better than Flip Murray. Maybe Rasual Butler, but apparently he's staying with the Hornets.

With the way the front office has performed lately I'm surprised they actually realised we had the BAE to use.

i dont like Flip, neither the coach nor the player...
at least Delk was an effective player when giving minutes... he could hit open shots, that's something Flip can't do...he might be more of a slasher but his shotselection is horrible...we were talking about Bonzi and Speedy before the offseason now we end up with Nazr and Flip...awesome...


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2520208

Even more perfect for the Pistons was the price at which they got him. The Pistons originally offered the majority of their mid-level exception to Murray, but Murray hesitated to take it, hoping to get a more lucrative deal elsewhere.


"In the meantime, the Pistons found out that they were losing Ben Wallace and made Nazr Mohamed an offer. When Mohammed accepted, Murray was left without a big suitor.


In the end, the Pistons were able to fill both their needs -- adding a center to replace Wallace and adding some scoring punch to their backcourt."

majority of MLE ? lol? espn smokes too much shit


from a sonics fan:
When he starts, he is bearable. When he comes off the bench, you want to pull your hair out and scream. He's just awful. He can't shoot (occasionally he'll hit a 3 and some mid-range jumpers, but those are rare), he's not a great FT shooter, he should never be put into a PG role EVER, he was probably the worst defender on the Sonics last year, and the Sonics are FULL of bad defenders. I hope he doesn't hurt the Pistons, because I cheer for you guys in the east (probably the only east team I can actually watch and enjoy), but adding Flip...ugh, hope he's your 12th man next year.

Considering we won't ask him to be a jumpshooter (god knows we have too many of those already), or a perimeter stopper (Delfino? Lindsey? Shit even Blalock looks pretty good defensively), he should fit right in.

If all we ask of him is to put points on the board, he will do that better than any reserve on this team not names McDyess. I promise you. When he goes to the hoop, he's very consistent. His problem is his teams have used him poorly, with the exception of his stint in seattle where he got to play SG when Ray Allen was hurt.

Seattle tried to make him a point guard, and Cleveland tried to make him a sniper. He's not either of those things. Just simplify his role into attacking the paint, and he'll produce.

As for Delk, I liked him, but he was a jumpshooter, and he didn't compliment our team. If we needed a shooter, id agree that Delk would be the way to go, but we needed a player who plays better close in, and that's what Flip does.

If nothing else, he makes Dice's life a lot easier, because there will actually be defensive attention paid in the paint to a piston other than him now.

Considering we won't ask him to be a jumpshooter (god knows we have too many of those already), or a perimeter stopper (Delfino? Lindsey?), he should fit right in.

haha, how do you assume that? Everyone on the roster from 1 to 15 has been turned into a jumpshooter by Flip (even when they aren't in the case of Delfino and Tayshaun specifically). What makes you think Flip will have this revelation and start using players to their strengths?

Just call me miss cleo cuz I can already see it. Lindsey standing with the ball on the perimeter with Tayshaun and Flip parked in the corners. They just stand and watch Lindsey dribble around the arc and force up a contested shot at the buzzer. Rinse and repeat.... Maybe he swings it over and lets Flip/Tay hoist up a few bricks.

With Lindsey running the point we are never going to have a good bench. There will always be those 10-15 minutes per game when it's just nasty, ugly, slop.

haha, how do you assume that? Everyone on the roster from 1 to 15 has been turned into a jumpshooter by Flip (even when they aren't in the case of Delfino and Tayshaun specifically). What makes you think Flip will have this revelation and start using players to their strengths?

Um, he wasn't using our players to their strengths?

Rip, Chauncey, Lindsey and Sheed aren't jumpshooters?

Tay is the best post up option on the team, and we actually used him there more and more later in the season.

As for Delfino, he has himself to blame for that. He's had plenty of chances to attack the rim and settled for the jumper. But then again, Delfino's never at fault for ANYTHING.


With Lindsey running the point we are never going to have a good bench. There will always be those 10-15 minutes per game when it's just nasty, ugly, slop.

You always assume the worst.

Lindsey won't be running shit next year at age 54. He'll be a situational sub like he was last regular season. Either Delfino or Blalock will run things, or most likely Joe will make a trade.

I agree with FP22 about Hunter. To me, right now Hunter is at BEST as our 3rd string point guard. He has gotten too old although his D and experience is appreciated. Only, we really need a solid backup point guard such as Marcus banks!

But who am I kidding...

We could not have signed Marcus Banks with the BAE. That was a pipe dream.

Shit, getting Murray was a miracle.

For all of Charlotte's posturing, I still think we'll be able to trade Dale+our 1st rounder in 2007 for Brevin Knight. Charlotte won't get a 1st round pick from anyone else.

(incidentally, anyone who doesnt think race plays a huge factor on how we judge players, want to defend dunleavy getting drafted 19 spots ahead of tay?).


The race thing is BS. They did have fairly similar numbers, but Dunleavy always had the ball handling, court vision, size, and fundamentals. People questioned whether Tayshaun was too skinny (a legit concern), and that busted looking shot is a bit of a turn off.

BTW, what about the 96 draft when 14 players were taken ahead of Steve Nash? Or how about the 84 draft when Leon Wood was taken before John Stockton? Must have been a racial thing, eh?

The draft is what we call a crap-shoot. Pointing out one instance of a player being drafted too high (in a weak ass draft at that) doesn't show anything.

Not sure why anyone thinks that Flip is a 3. That's hilarious to me.

He's been a 1 and 2 his whole career. That's not going to change here.


Nazr/Davis/Cato
Sheed/Dice/Maxiell
Prince/Delfino/Johnson
Rip/Flip/Acker
Billups/Hunter/Blalock

I likes. Flip can help out at the 1. Delf at the 2 here and there.

Our team is extremely athletic and we have very many interchangeable spots.
Everyone up front can play the 4 and 5 no problem. I like this very much.

I'm excited. Fuck y'all.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2520208


Even more perfect for the Pistons was the price at which they got him. The Pistons originally offered the majority of their mid-level exception to Murray, but Murray hesitated to take it, hoping to get a more lucrative deal elsewhere.

now, the thought of Flip Murray as our only FA signing w/ our midlevel exception is scary. coming out of FA w/ Nazr and Flip isn't bad when you think we could have had just one. i know it's not reason to celebrate, but i'm glad it happened this way.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2520208


Even more perfect for the Pistons was the price at which they got him. The Pistons originally offered the majority of their mid-level exception to Murray, but Murray hesitated to take it, hoping to get a more lucrative deal elsewhere.

now, the thought of Flip Murray as our only FA signing w/ our midlevel exception is scary. coming out of FA w/ Nazr and Flip isn't bad when you think we could have had just one. i know it's not reason to celebrate, but i'm glad it happened this way.

Sure it's reason to celebrate. Last legit backup 2 we had was Jon Barry.
Also, Delf is better at the 3 and it really evens things out. I'm excited
about Naz too. He's going to be perfect here.

Read somewhere else that the Sonics offered the MLE last season but he rejected it. Guess he doesnt really want the big money...

Some Cavs/Sonics fans say having Flip playing the 1 is llike Shaq playing shooting guard. Flip can't handle the ball and turns the ball over alot. At times, he gets selfish and doesnt pass until theres ike 4 seconds left on the shot clock.

Read somewhere else that the Sonics offered the MLE last season but he rejected it. Guess he doesnt really want the big money...

Some Cavs/Sonics fans say having Flip playing the 1 is llike Shaq playing shooting guard. Flip can't handle the ball and turns the ball over alot. At times, he gets selfish and doesnt pass until theres ike 4 seconds left on the shot clock.

or his agent isn't doing a good job gauging his market value. in the EPSN article it said he was holding out on the Piston's offer for more money.

well, at the very least, hopefully Flip Murray's out to play hard and earn a big payday down the future. if that means he'll bust his ass while he's here, that's not a bad thing at all.

regarding backup PG, i'd like to see Delfino handle the the rock at PG. w/ Flip, you've got people who keep saying he can't play PG. w/ Delfino, i remember that he did a decent to good job running the offense while he was in. he just looked more comfortable handling the ball up top.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2520208


Even more perfect for the Pistons was the price at which they got him. The Pistons originally offered the majority of their mid-level exception to Murray, but Murray hesitated to take it, hoping to get a more lucrative deal elsewhere.
now, the thought of Flip Murray as our only FA signing w/ our midlevel exception is scary. coming out of FA w/ Nazr and Flip isn't bad when you think we could have had just one. i know it's not reason to celebrate, but i'm glad it happened this way.
Sure it's reason to celebrate. Last legit backup 2 we had was Jon Barry.
Also, Delf is better at the 3 and it really evens things out. I'm excited
about Naz too. He's going to be perfect here.
i'm on the same boat, man. we don't need a bench that looks great on paper. aren't we the same Piston's fans who preach about how chemistry > big names?? we need one that will play well as a unit. we're not going to find that out until the season starts, so i'm also excited for the upcoming season. not because i think we're winning a title, but i'm intrigued to watch these guys (and Flip Saunders) figure each other out.

I read almost this entire thread and I don't see anywhere we talk about him in transition. Thats his strength in scoring, not chucking off slow dribbles.

I don't see why anyone can be unhappy with this signing when you factor in need/price/youth. The problem with last years team is we all shot jumpers. Flip can score in transition and get into the lane like Rip can. When Rip came out of the game the offense was stagnant, we had to rely on Delk. Flip is younger, more athletic, a better scoring option, and a better bargain than Delk. Good signing.

Delfino seems like he would be a good PG. Good decision making, good ball handling, and can shoot the open jumper or pump fake dunk on Alonzo Mourning if needed.

Where do you people get this "Delfino at PG" garbage?

Where do you people get this "Delfino at PG" garbage?

He played it in summer league last year, and showed some PG skills.

LMFAO!


Delfino at PG, LOL.

I read almost this entire thread and I don't see anywhere we talk about him in transition. Thats his strength in scoring, not chucking off slow dribbles.

bingo

[quote]if you think i'd get more excited if i saw samb play, i question your judgment. theres not a chance in the world this samb charachter is making our roster this year, let alone contributes.

Nope. But add 50 lbs on to his frame, and he's Desagana Diop. He's got the same instincts.



so, when he gains 25% of his body weight in muscle, he can be as good as diop? lol, how many years is that going to take? its getting really hard to take you seriously.

Why even try? He's just a Tom Wilson plant.

if you think i'd get more excited if i saw samb play, i question your judgment. theres not a chance in the world this samb charachter is making our roster this year, let alone contributes.

Nope. But add 50 lbs on to his frame, and he's Desagana Diop. He's got the same instincts.



so, when he gains 25% of his body weight in muscle, he can be as good as diop? lol, how many years is that going to take? its getting really hard to take you seriously.

Yea, I don't think he needs to gain 50 pounds. He's at about 215 right now. He could survive at 235-240 with his athleticism and length ala KG, who is around that. All we're looking for him to do is block a few shots, and not get pushed around out there. Plus he has a very suprising jumper. Good form (unlike amir), and he even hit a few clutch 15-footers at the summer league. He looked very impressive compared to his scouting report which made it sound like he was just tall and had no idea what he was doing.

He'll never be Diop in size, but to anyone who's seen the two play, it's obvious that Samb's got a better feel on the offensive end.

Not saying he'll turn into anything, but I like the chances a lot more now that I've actually seen him play. Even the NBA tv commentators were getting excited about him.

What a great pick up for the Pistons. Even if he doesn't work out for this team he will have very good trade value since we got him so cheap. I think that he will be the slasher and spark off of the bench that we needed. I also think that Nazr will be better than most people think. I can see us being one mid-season trade away from being back in the championship hunt.

What a great pick up for the Pistons. Even if he doesn't work out for this team he will have very good trade value since we got him so cheap. I think that he will be the slasher and spark off of the bench that we needed. I also think that Nazr will be better than most people think. I can see us being one mid-season trade away from being back in the championship hunt.

I don't know if I agree, but I sure as hell hope you're right.

I still gotta wonder... WHO IS OUR BACKUP PG? I keep looking at the roster to find one, and I keep coming up empty.

If Lindsey Hunter is running the O on this team again next year I am gonna scream.

For whats its worth, Just about every Cleveland fan I've read from say's that at that price he is an absolute steal. I'm shocked that anyone can think this is a bad move.

For whats its worth, Just about every Cleveland fan I've read from say's that at that price he is an absolute steal. I'm shocked that anyone can think this is a bad move.

I'm shocked anyone can think Nazr Mohammed isn't any better than Kelvin Cato. .....

It's a haterade summer. Anyone we aquire will be ripped on and dismissed.

It's disappointmentade. Everyone was hoping that we'd re-sign Ben and find a way to get Bonzi. Instead we have Nazr and Flip. Can't blame people for being underwhelmed.

I'm shocked anyone can think Nazr Mohammed isn't any better than Kelvin Cato. .....
Kelvin Cato is better than Mohammed if we keep the MLE to actually upgrade the bench to compensate for the loss in the starting lineup.

We had Bird rights on 3 players, and lost one (Ben), the other remains in limbo (Cato) and the last was a guy you could take or leave (Hunter).


It's a haterade summer. Anyone we aquire will be ripped on and dismissed.
I'd say that is a somewhat fair assessment. To even the casual observer this team seems to be separating itself from the Miamis and San Antonios of the NBA.

Riley blew up the Heat but brought in more raw talent, the only question was would it mesh. We definitely did not add a lot of talent or depth this offseason.

Cato is crap. His best season was 7 and 7 for a lotto team.

It's a wash

http://www.basketball-reference.com/labs/comp.cgi?I=catoke01%3AKelvin+Cato&y1=2005&C=mohamna01%3ANazr+Mohammed&y2=2006&s=r&t=g&submit=Compare

Cato's last full season ('05) vs. Nazr. last year.

Nazr put up basically the same numbers in 7 fewer minutes per games?

Sounds like a wash to me....

Nevermind the fact Nazr is a hell of a lot better defending the post, this is a stupid comparison.

Nazr put up basically the same numbers in 7 fewer minutes per games?

Sounds like a wash to me....
Seems to me that Cato had significantly more blocks, steals, rebounds, and less turnovers. Nazr had the same # of fouls in 7 less minutes, which probably had a bit to do with why he played 7 less minutes.


Nevermind the fact Nazr is a hell of a lot better defending the post, this is a stupid comparison.
Cato was never a bad defensive center. He just never had much offense, but at least he could make a FT better than Ben.

Seems to me that Cato had significantly more blocks, steals, rebounds, and less turnovers. Nazr had the same # of fouls in 7 less minutes, which probably had a bit to do with why he played 7 less minutes.

He gets more blocks, but only because he jumps at everything in the air. Blocked shots aren't a sign of good man-to-man defense.




Cato was never a bad defensive center. He just never had much offense, but at least he could make a FT better than Ben.

No, he was never BAD, but Nazr's very good man-to-man.

Cato would probably block more shots off the ball, but he's so undisciplined his man would score a lot more too.

Kelvin Cato is better than Mohammed if we keep the MLE to actually upgrade the bench to compensate for the loss in the starting lineup.

We had Bird rights on 3 players, and lost one (Ben), the other remains in limbo (Cato) and the last was a guy you could take or leave (Hunter).

Which is why I think Joe Dumars is doing one of the worst jobs in the NBA this offseason.

Please don't anyone here suggest that we can't rip on Joe for his work product in the past two years, since he did so well the two years before that.

I don't care how many rabbits he pulled out of his hat a few years ago.

His last two years have sucked, and he deserves blame for it.

Traded away good players for nothing (Corliss, etc.). Let good salary swap guys go for nothing (Coleman, etc.), let a cheap backup Shaq stopping center retire (Elden) and signed a much worse (and shorter and lighter and therefore non-Shaq-stopping) center for more years and more money (Davis), trading Darko for an expiring contract, did nothing with the expiring contract, let Ben go w/o working a s/t, didn't trade Darko for Al Harrington when he had the chance, signed Lindsey Hunter for at least twice his worth, etc.

LOL, Joe's to blame for Elden retiring?

Joe's to blame for us not getting value for Derrick Coleman?

Some stuff is vaild, some other stuff is just reaching for shit.

Ok, so let me ask you: how long until you think Dumars should be fired?

Which current GMs would you rather have on this team?

While i'll be the first to admit Joe could have done better, I sure as hell realize that no GM is perfect, and Joe's successes have been better than %90 of the GMs in the league. Shit happens.

Not dealing Darko for Harrington when we had the chance is Joe's fault and that cost us the title in 05.

Giving away Corliss, Darko, Arroyo and Evans are all about Davidson's cheapness. THe no luxury tax edict forced Joe to make those crap moves.

Joe's to blame for us not getting value for Derrick Coleman?
Yes. We needed a Coleman-sized contract for Utah to waive as part of the trade for Arroyo, but Dumars had already waived Coleman for no good reason.

Joe's to blame for us not getting value for Derrick Coleman?
Yes. We needed a Coleman-sized contract for Utah to waive as part of the trade for Arroyo, but Dumars had already waived Coleman for no good reason.

...Didn't Coleman retire before we ever made the trade?

Even so, what did it matter, since we got elden back anyway?

Coleman was cut. He retired after that because nobody wanted him.

It's disappointmentade. Everyone was hoping that we'd re-sign Ben and find a way to get Bonzi. Instead we have Nazr and Flip. Can't blame people for being underwhelmed.

I agree with WOD on this one.

And for anyone who thinks Cato is anywhere near Nazr talentwise needs to go jump off a fucking cliff.

There could be a reason why Cato hasnt played significent minutes on a Detroit team who had no backup center. There could be a reason why no team has yet to sign him.

I wonder why. Because he fucking blows ass right now. Cato would be lucky right now if he could make even 40% of his free throws.. Cato would be lucky if he could grab 5 rebounds and score 8 points. Cato isnt't exactly done, but Nazr is worth ALOT more than him.

It's disappointmentade. Everyone was hoping that we'd re-sign Ben and find a way to get Bonzi. Instead we have Nazr and Flip. Can't blame people for being underwhelmed.
I agree with WOD on this one.

And for anyone who thinks Cato is anywhere near Nazr talentwise needs to go jump off a fucking cliff.

There could be a reason why Cato hasnt played significent minutes on a Detroit team who had no backup center. There could be a reason why no team has yet to sign him.

I wonder why. Because he fucking blows ass right now. Cato would be lucky right now if he could make even 40% of his free throws.. Cato would be lucky if he could grab 5 rebounds and score 8 points. Cato isnt't exactly done, but Nazr is worth ALOT more than him.
But that is why you sign Cato using Bird Rights to a small deal so he doesn't impact the tax situation, and then look at what you can do significantly with the MLE.

No one wanted to see Dale Davis as our starting center 2 weeks ago, but today, I would take it if we used the BAE on a scrub center (3rd string behind Cato/Davis) and spent the MLE on someone who can produce, create a shot, cause matchup problems, finish, rebound etc.

You never know. A team like the Kings might have bit on a S&T Cato + MLE for Wells.

Options. You gotta be willing to spend, and accumulate salary to have those options. Especially when you are over the cap because FA is very limiting for teams working only with exceptions.

You can't combine the MLE with another player to make a trade and even if you could the Kings could get a helluva lot more than that for Bonzi.

maybe its time for the pistons to change philosophy. rather than 5 good players, go get 2 or 3 superstars. surround the stars with interchangeable parts. that way, you'll always beable to keep the core together and keep your salaries in line.

Last I checked, Joe's philosophy has worked pretty damn well.

Just because we aren't winning championships every year doesn't mean his system doesn't work, or that junking it is the way to go.

Joe's philosophy worked well when all those players were underpaid. As soon as you have to pay those guys what the market demands it's falls apart thanks you know who.

It's disappointmentade. Everyone was hoping that we'd re-sign Ben and find a way to get Bonzi. Instead we have Nazr and Flip. Can't blame people for being underwhelmed.


I couldn't agree more. Frankly, Flip Murray is an excellent signing for what we are paying him. He held his own quite well in the playoffs against the Pistons last season when he replaced Hughes.

Sure, his scorring wasn't that great but let's not forget who Cleveland's offence was running through. It's not as though the offence was geared for him.

Defensively he looked serviceable. I think he was guarding Chauncey in the game I watched and when he did Chauncey pretty much did a dissapearing act. I'm not going to say that this was all due to Flip Murray but he did a good enough job.

I know this may produce snickers but I like what Joe is doing here. It looks like he is attempting to reproduce the depth that helped this team win the first championship.

Some people may think other wise but I don't think playing the final game in San Antonio had as much to do with the Pistons not repeating as some claim. It had more to do with loosing Corliss Williamson and Mehmet Okur or at least the production off of the bench that they provided. Depth has been a consistant element in the Pistons success for the previous four years. The last two years everyone has bought into the ideal that the Pistons starting 5 were the best in basketball which may be true but when you ride the same guys over a four year span and an 82 game schedule they are bound to run out of gas.

Now Joe is obtaining serviceable vets and indicating the need to have eight guys capable of comming into the game and producing. This is a good strategy.

In regards to whether or not Flip will work or not has a lot to do with Flip Saunders. How will he use him etc. Will he play Murray at the expence of younger players like he did last year etc?

We had 8+ last year.

Wallace
Wallace
Prince
Hamilton
Billups

McDyess
Davis
Evans
Delfino
Delk
Hunter

We had 8+ last year.

Wallace
Wallace
Prince
Hamilton
Billups

McDyess
Davis
Evans
Delfino
Delk
Hunter

Keyword here is PRODUCING. The starting 5 and McDyess were certainly producers, while the remaining four produced in spurts. We never knew who we could count on to do it on a given night. Corliss and Memo were almost always good for decent points and boards in limited minutes.

We had 8+ last year.

Wallace
Wallace
Prince
Hamilton
Billups

McDyess
Davis
Evans
Delfino
Delk
Hunter

Oops, duplicate post. Feel free to delete this one, Mods.

We had 8+ last year.

Wallace
Wallace
Prince
Hamilton
Billups

McDyess
Davis
Evans
Delfino
Delk
Hunter


But things are different from last year. Last year the Pistons thought they lost the championship because they didn't have home court advantage. So we rode the starting five the whole year. The bench was only used to give the starting unit a breather. As a result instead of losing in the last game of the Championship series we end up losing in the ECF. This year Joe has been quoted as saying that he is more interested in finding depth for this team. I interpret this as meaning that he wants to use the bench as a weapon again like it was used when they had Barry, Okur, and Williamson.


One other thing I forgot to mention is the variety of skill sets on the championship team. Mehmet Okur was a seven footer that could nail the three while Corliss scored points in the paint. Okurs length required a big to defend against him and thereby spread the defence while Corliss could occupy the paint. I won't even spend time explaining the different things that Lindsey Hunter and Mike James brought to the table. Now compare that to last years bench. Where are the points in the paint? Every one of those backup players is a jump shooter except for Delfino. There's no variety and it's easy to defend against.

Now Joe has another slasher in Murray (if what I'm told is true) and he's got a different game than Chauncey. Nazr is no Ben Wallace defensively but last year Ben was rareley Ben due to the transition game that the Pistons rely more on now.

The rules for the game have changed. The league is looking to open it up more. The half court game that Ben relied on has been replaced by a full court up tempo system. I'm not predicting that he will be an all star but Nazr should be serviceable in this new system. So, I don't think we are going to miss Ben as much as some are expecting (until we play the Bulls that is).

It looks like Joe sees things in the same way and therefore doesn't see a need to blow the team up. The Pistons are still in pretty good shape. Even without Wallace there are still five guys who have been All Stars. So Joe is working on the bench.

Great posts swarm, welcome.

Joe's philosophy worked well when all those players were underpaid. As soon as you have to pay those guys what the market demands it's falls apart thanks you know who.

There is truth to this, no matter how Kstat spins it.

You get Chauncey, Rip, Tay, AND Ben for peanuts?

The only guy who ever got even close to 1/4 what he was worth during our championship run was Sheed.

Joe D. kinda had it like Ken Holland for a while.

He had a ton of great talent, with not a care in the world about the salary cap.

With Holland, his luster wore off once the salary cap was instituted and he couldn't just buy players with no regard to price.

With Joe, his luster wore off as soon as his starting five stopped being the best bargains in the NBA, and he had to figure out a way to pay his best players more than half of what they are actually worth on the open market.

That's bullshit.

Joe has NEVER lowballed a starter. He's paid them what they were worth, no more no less.

Again I'll ask this question: do you think Joe Dumars should be fired, and what current GM would you rather have?

I ask becasue I want to know just how deep this stupidity goes.

I love how we re-signed Sheed,Rip AND Tayshaun during this run, but god forbid ONE of our players runs smewhere else for way more than he was worth, now all of a sudden its like we never re-signed anybody and we're the worst run organization of all time.

Flip Murray at that price is a bargain. Is he the Answer? Of course not.

As currently constructed we do have a decent 10-man rotation:

Nazr/Sheed
Sheed/Dice/Maxiell
Prince/Delfino
Rip/Flip/Delfino
Billups/Hunter

Throw in Davis at C and things don't look so bad.

At the very least it should be interesting to see who plays behind Tay and who gets the majority of minutes behind Billups.

And, Joe has lined up a few assets if he needs to make a trade.

Delfino, Dice, Acker, Amir, Blalock and Flip all have very short contracts and we have 2 first round picks in the 2007 Draft. Throw in Davis and his $3.5mil expiring deal and it is possible for us to make a serious trade.

I doubt it happens, but Joe does have that option.

Obviously I would have approached the off-season differently but looking at our team I can't honestly say my way would give us a much better roster.

If you take out Davis and Flip, but add Banks are we better?

Significantly better?

Who knows?

(and yes, it was possible to add Nazr, Banks and bring back Hunter)

And Kstat: I wouldn't be asking how deep this stupidity goes.

Some of your statements go deep, too.

IMO the majority (including me at times) have over-reacted this off-season. That was bound to happen after Ben's exit but now it's time to settle down a bit and take a long look at this squad.

It isn't that bad. It isn't a contender either IMO.

But we'll certainly beat the shit out of a lot of teams next season and in 2007 we have 2 first rounders.

Just draft well and retain Chauncey and we're good to go again.

Those 2 first round picks are everything to the future of this franchise. That Orlando gets us a pick between 6~10 and that Joe makes at least one great decision between the two of them.

As trade assets, I'm not sure they will get much done.

I'm thinking the Magic's pick is between 8-14 but I get the point. We do need Joe to make some solid picks and really get us a foundation for the future.

And while I'm not sure what we could do with 2 2007 firsts via trades at least we have those assets to move if needed.

Some teams would love an addition 2007 pick (like Atlanta)

Counting on Joe's ability to draft is suicide.

Do we have any other options now?

No exceptions to use in free agency.

Plus, we only have Davis + unproven youth + picks to trade

Things aren't looking good

No they aren't thanks to Davidson. Had he not been a cheap ass and given away Corliss and Darko we'd have $16 million in epxiring contracts to use as trade bait. We got Sheed for $16 million in expiring contract. Instead we're left with shit. But at least Davidson's profit margins are up and Gaystats happy.

Yeah, the wrath of PMS really nailed it.

The reason we're no longer contenders is because we let Corliss Williamson go. That's gotta be it.

I must have missed the meeting where it was decided that all expiring contracts were guarenteed to land a quality player.

its guaranteed that if you have no assetts to trade, you wont land a quality player. right now we can scrounge up ~6 million to trade (unless you want to move the 'big 6'. not too much to choose from in the 6 million range.

My point is it's silly to expect Dumars to hold on to Corliss when he wasn't anywhere worth his contract, in the hope that TWO years down the road his expiring salary might be useful.

If that were the case, nobody would ever try to get rid of an overpaid player.

Trading Corliss for Coleman and then waiving Coleman got us what?

NOTHING! For the former 6th Man of the Year!

WTF? How can you justify that Kstat?

You surely aren't this fucking stupid, are you?

Yeah, the wrath of PMS really nailed it.

The reason we're no longer contenders is because we let Corliss Williamson go. That's gotta be it.

I must have missed the meeting where it was decided that all expiring contracts were guarenteed to land a quality player.

Where have I EVER said that losing Corliss no longer made us a contendet you lying cock sucker? I've said giving him away for nothing hurt our depth and not having his expiring contract right now hurts our ability to improve the team. Just shut the fuck up you fucking bought and paid for stooge.

I'm not even saying hold on to Corliss for 2 years.

I'm saying move him for another asset (DC)

We didn't even get a pick in that deal.

When that asset proved to be faulty we couldn't even get a pick for it, not even a second rounder and a TE.

We got nothing for the former 6th Man of the Year!

My point is it's silly to expect Dumars to hold on to Corliss when he wasn't anywhere worth his contract, in the hope that TWO years down the road his expiring salary might be useful.

If that were the case, nobody would ever try to get rid of an overpaid player.

We dealt him because two years down the road we might have to pay the luxury tax FOR ONE YEAR. We were sold that giving Corliss away for NOTHING was needed to keep Ben and Tay. Then when the time came and clearing his salary would've helped avoid the luxury tax THE TEAM DOESN'T ANTE UP AND PAY WALLACE. We lost a 4 time DPOY over $3 million a year. We gave away Corliss for NOTHING.

We didn't ante up because he wasn't worth the price.

He wasn't even worth what we offered him.

Yeah who needs a 4 time DPOY and 5 time all-star when you can have Nazr Mohammed.

What excuse will you have next year when some team outbids the Pistons for Chauncey?

Yeah who needs a 4 time DPOY and 5 time all-star when you can have Nazr Mohammed.

What excuse will you have next year when some team outbids the Pistons for Chauncey?

I've already been on record saying Chauncey will be worth as much as $14 million next season. If he improves a little on last season and averages 20/10, he'll be worth $15 million.

But if another team decides to throw Iverson money at him? I'd be fine with letting him walk too, and he's probably my favorite Piston. That's the kind of money you only pay a superstar, which chauncey is on the cusp of but isn't.

Of course, no PG since Tim Hardaway 15 years ago has been able to reach 20/10, so that might change my opinion about him being a superstar. Then again, Tim wasn't really a superstar then, either.

Yeah who needs a 4 time DPOY and 5 time all-star when you can have Nazr Mohammed.

What excuse will you have next year when some team outbids the Pistons for Chauncey?

I've already been on record saying Chauncey will be worth as much as $14 million next season. If he improves a little on last season and averages 20/10, he'll be worth $15 million.

But if another team decides to throw Iverson money at him? I'd be fine with letting him walk too, and he's probably my favorite Piston. That's the kind of money you only pay a superstar, which chauncey is on the cusp of but isn't.

Your favorite Piston is Bill Davidson and Tom Wilson is 2nd.

Of course, no PG since Tim Hardaway 15 years ago has been able to reach 20/10, so that might change my opinion about him being a superstar. Then again, Tim wasn't really a superstar then, either. A 5 time All-Star is not a superstar?

That's what I don't get. Before Shaq came to the East, Ben was the fan concensus best center in the conference. He was our superstar. People all over the world identify Ben with the Detroit Pistons.

I dunno where you grew up, but in the 90s, folks were sporting Hardaway jerseys on the blacktop.

Of course, no PG since Tim Hardaway 15 years ago has been able to reach 20/10, so that might change my opinion about him being a superstar. Then again, Tim wasn't really a superstar then, either. A 5 time All-Star is not a superstar?

That's what I don't get. Before Shaq came to the East, Ben was the fan concensus best center in the conference. He was our superstar. People all over the world identify Ben with the Detroit Pistons.

I dunno where you grew up, but in the 90s, folks were sporting Hardaway jerseys on the blacktop.

1. A player isn't a superstar because he sells jerseys. Tim was a very good player in his prime, but never was he a dominant superstar. Of course, injuries may have robbed him of the chance to reach that level.

2. Ben's not a superstar. Even in his prime he wasn't a superstar. He was an all-star calibur center that I don't think has more than one all-star appearance left in him.

How many more all-star caliber years do you think Nazr has left in him?

How many more all-star caliber years do you think Nazr has left in him?

I don't know, with that $60 million deal we signed him to, he's certainly got a lot to live up to.

1. A player isn't a superstar because he sells jerseys. Tim was a very good player in his prime, but never was he a dominant superstar. Of course, injuries may have robbed him of the chance to reach that level.

2. Ben's not a superstar. Even in his prime he wasn't a superstar. He was an all-star calibur center that I don't think has more than one all-star appearance left in him.
Define a superstar. Be sure to leave out captaincy, All-Star selections, statistical brilliance and jersey sales.

1. A player isn't a superstar because he sells jerseys. Tim was a very good player in his prime, but never was he a dominant superstar. Of course, injuries may have robbed him of the chance to reach that level.

2. Ben's not a superstar. Even in his prime he wasn't a superstar. He was an all-star calibur center that I don't think has more than one all-star appearance left in him.
Define a superstar. Be sure to leave out captaincy, All-Star selections, statistical brilliance and jersey sales.

Did you think that was a challenge? That's pretty damn easy.

A player that can dominate any given game all by himself, regardless of who's defending him.

Iverson, Wade, LeBron, Shaq, Kobe, KG and Nash are all superstars. Duncan was a superstar before last year, but that may have been due to injury. Same goes for T-Mac.

Guys on the cusp but not quite there yet are Arenas, Chauncey, Pierce, Yao, Amare, Parker, Howard, Allen, Brand, Redd and Artest.

Dirk was a superstar this year, but to call him one in general may be a bit hasty.

Ben could be the best help-defender on earth, but he's not a superstar. Rodman was never a superstar either. The complete lack of offense is too difficult to ignore.

Added to that, the fact ben is a mediocre DEFENSIVE player man-to-man.

So you are saying that a defender cannot be a superstar?

Steve Nash is to defense what Ben Wallace is to offense.

So you are saying that a defender cannot be a superstar?

Steve Nash is to defense what Ben Wallace is to offense.

I'm saying a defensive specialist that can't play offense can't be a superstar.

Russell was a superstar because of his defense, but he also put up 15-18 ppg consistently. Same thing with Mutombo in his prime.

You also can't compare Ben and Nash, because you can hide a poor defender so much more easily than you can hide a poor offensive player in the NBA.

There are also more holes in ben's offense (man-to-man) then there are in Nash's offense.

10 years ago, it might have been a different story. Then again, Rodman wasn't a superstar then either.

1. A player isn't a superstar because he sells jerseys. Tim was a very good player in his prime, but never was he a dominant superstar. Of course, injuries may have robbed him of the chance to reach that level.

2. Ben's not a superstar. Even in his prime he wasn't a superstar. He was an all-star calibur center that I don't think has more than one all-star appearance left in him.
Define a superstar. Be sure to leave out captaincy, All-Star selections, statistical brilliance and jersey sales.

Did you think that was a challenge? That's pretty damn easy.

A player that can dominate any given game all by himself, regardless of who's defending him.

Iverson, Wade, LeBron, Shaq, Kobe, KG and Nash are all superstars. Duncan was a superstar before last year, but that may have been due to injury. Same goes for T-Mac.

Dirk was a superstar this year, but to call him one in general may be a bit hasty.

Ben could be the best help-defender on earth, but he's not a superstar. Rodman was never a superstar either. The complete lack of offense is too difficult to ignore.

Added to that, the fact ben is a mediocre DEFENSIVE player man-to-man.

Well, the whole superstar debate is a subjective one. But I really think that Ben was a legitemate superstar. When the Pistons played a half court game he was one of the few players in the league that could affect the game by his mere presence. How could he do this? He was an exceptional weak side defender. Even if the great slashers of the day were able to get around Tay, Chauncey, Rip or Stackhouse Wallace would be waiting for them in the paint forcing them to alter their shot or end up swatting it into the stands. Wallace had an MO that was unique and he was one of the biggest reasons the Pistons were perennial playoff teams.

Ben was known for his hard work, great timing and remarkeable leaping ability. While Iverson, Wade and Jordan are known for entirely different things that does not mean that Wallace was not a superstar merely because he couldn't score.

With that said his value for the Pistons has significantly dwindled because the Pistons no longer play the type of basketball that suits his style. This statement may not satisfy everyone but I think that Ben going to the Bulls was the best possible solution for all parties. It allows the Pistons to play youth and it allows Ben to play in a defense first system.

you're right- nash may be to defense what wallace is to offense. but the thing that really matters is that the nba now caters COMPLETELY to offense. defense is practically illegal.

so IMO you're much better off to have an offensive player who can't defend than a defender who can't play offense.

a guy like nash can be hidden a lot by good team D. ben can't hide out there on the offensive end, especially come playoff time.

JMO

I don't think the NBA supports Ben Wallace dominating like he used to.

I agree our system doesn't fit Ben anymore, but I don't see him fitting in much better in Chicago. When they realize they can't score with any of their frontcourt players, Skiles will change things and you'll see Ben blow up there like he did here.

Of course, Skiles won't be punked by anyone (the man fought Magic Johnson in an MSU alumni game, he won't think twice about Ben Wallace), so it will probably get a lot worse than it did here.

you're right- nash may be to defense what wallace is to offense. but the thing that really matters is that the nba now caters COMPLETELY to offense. defense is practically illegal.
That's more brainwashing. Did anyone watch the Heat totally intimdate and rough up the Mavs?

Miami broke 100 ONCE in their last 12 playoff games and that one time took overtime for the love of pete. This offense first NBA is what they want, but defense still wins titles.

Miami broke 100 ONCE in their last 12 playoff games and that one time took overtime for the love of pete. This offense first NBA is what they want, but defense still wins titles.

Funny, I could have sworn that Dwayne Wade is what won them the title...

Other than Zo, nobody really played defense on Miami. And Zo could actually score a little, which allowed him to be on the floor late in the game, unlike Ben.

flip murray wooohoo!! i have two guys i dislike on this team.[smilie=grumble.gif]

call it whatever you want. but i have my own opinion and do not rely on ANY outsiders to influence it. if you knew me you would understand that. there's no need to try and fit me in some category of people who believe whatever they're told, just because you don't like my opinion.

the heat played good team defense and benefitted greatly by having 2 superstar players, one in particular, who could get to the line. wade benefitted from the fact that the mavs weren't allowed to play any D on him. i don't think there's anyone who will dispute that fact.

finally, what one-way defensive player do the heat have? none. they have guys who play good D (posey, zo come immediately to mind) but who can also put the ball in the hole.

Other than Zo, nobody really played defense on Miami. And Zo could actually score a little, which allowed him to be on the floor late in the game, unlike Ben.
Payton, Shandon Anderson, Haslem, Posey...

I almost want to give up arguing with you, but then I won't have an excuse to not do laundry. Yep, you narrowly edge out dirty socks and skidmarked boxers.

we have a bunch of good defenders too. and we fell woefully short of winning. so what's the point?

nobody is saying ben is the reason we lost. at least, i sure hope not.

but what each of those guys you mentioned on the heat can also do, is score when needed. or get to the line and score. ben is a horrible offensive player, i don't care what his shooting percentage looks like.

and even if he could score, teams exposed him by purposely fouling him and sending him to the line, and he struggled to even make 1 of 2. so in effect, he was a one way player, who was not even being allowed to play defense with the way the game is being officiated.

this team is pretty soft and unfortunately Flip isnt a good enough slasher. Doesnt pass well, isnt the greastest ballhandler, doesn't score over bigger defenders, and will probally set up for more spot up jumpers than he should at his not so good FG %.

Joe D, you are garbage this offseason(so far), and i say that with all due respect to you as our gm. I'd still wouldnt want any other guy running our team. but damn we are not contending with the west or the Heat probally. I applaud Joe's effort to get something done. Though the results arent really great additions IMO(i'm trying to give nazr a pass, but what i've seen from him against us says otherwise).

Either way i definately think we are a playoff team. but i thought we were w/o these two guys. in fact i dont think we improved where we rank in the east one bit with them. Hopefully they'll prove me wrong. I also hoped my worries about Flip's effect on this team and its identity wouldn't be too significant. Hoping sucks as of late.[smilie=grumble.gif]

we have a bunch of good defenders too. and we fell woefully short of winning. so what's the point?

nobody is saying ben is the reason we lost. at least, i sure hope not.

but what each of those guys you mentioned on the heat can also do, is score when needed. or get to the line and score. ben is a horrible offensive player, i don't care what his shooting percentage looks like.

and even if he could score, teams exposed him by purposely fouling him and sending him to the line, and he struggled to even make 1 of 2. so in effect, he was a one way player, who was not even being allowed to play defense with the way the game is being officiated. Scoring responsibility was based around Ben as a 5th option. It was always Hamilton => Billups => Sheed => Prince

When 4 guys come up short, I laugh in the general direction of folks who want to point out Ben's offensive deficiencies.

And the perimeter defense is how the game is being manipulated by the refs. In this regard, Ben is a superior deterrent to finishing than Nazr Mohammed. It wasn't Ben being legislated out of the game. It was Rip and Tay's hand checking, and Lindsey's phone booth defense. Teams cannot keep Dwyane Wade out of the paint, making it that much more necessary to have a good defensive rebounder and shot blocker down low.

which is why i said our loss was not solely due to ben; our guys were tired out there and had dead legs.

but a large part was the fact the heat were able to double off of ben and that clogged up our whole offense and ball movement. flip should have found a way to make the heat pay for this, as LB would have but he didn't. so he too deserves blame.

but a large part of why our guys could not score was because they are not penetrators and ben did not need to be guarded which made everyone else easier to guard.

plus we could have moved the ball a little better if we weren't so worried they would foul ben and send him to the line.

Here is a Kstat Komedy Klassice from another board


He'll (Chauncey) be traded if we decide we won't want to re-sign him, which we clearly do, so I don't get it.

I wouldn't have traded Ben last season, even knowing he'd walk at the end of it. That's just giving up.


It wouldn't have been okay to trade Ben if we weren't willing to pay to keep him but it's okay to trade Chauncey if we don't want to pay what it takes to keep him.

Straight on the Wilson payroll.

Straight on the Wilson payroll.

Yep, whatever you say.

BTW, if you'd like I can drag your posts here from other boards as well.

Straight on the Wilson payroll.

Yep, whatever you say.

Greatest. Comeback. EVER.

Added to that, the fact ben is a mediocre DEFENSIVE player man-to-man.

im getting really tired of you reshaping the truth to fit YOUR argument. if you want to talk basketball sensibly, fine. if you want to argue just to argue, then what's the point?

everyone can see you've blatantly got an agenda, and that your willing to say assinine things just to make a point.

why dont you take a few days away from the website? at this point, i doubt you know where you stand on issues, and that you just come up with counterarguments to whatever anyone says.

Ben's a mediocre man-to-man defensive player. I could make a list a mile long of guys that have killed him in the post. I don't think more than 5 people outside of detroit and chicago would disagree with me.

Shit, even when Ben was in his statistical prime in 2002, Antonio Davis absolutely abused him on the low block in the playoffs.

me:except for all those guys who voted for him dpoy 4 times.

kstat: 'he was voted dpoy for his weakside defense, not his man-to-man'.

me: how do you explain ben switching to the best scorer in late game scenarios? how do explain all the highlights of ben sending a shot back in the dudes face while in man-to-man? how do you explain ben being the only one to guard shaq in the entire miami series?

kstat: and alot of good ben did us against miami. lol.

me: *steps away from computer and rips apart pillow in frustration*

-------------------------------------------------------------------

there, i just saved us 20 minutes, and i didnt even have to tear apart the pillow.

You're just making shit up now.

Remember all those times ben hit threes, or dunked from the FT line?

Please. Ben never gets switched on to the other team's best player except when we're in foul trouble, and he almost never blocks a shot unless it comes from the weak side or from behind. He might have one block every now and then, but certainly not nearly as many as he gets weakside.

Oh and BTW, Ben never shuts down Shaq. SHaq's numbers aren't any worse against us than most other teams.

Ben simply makes him work more for his points, and we hope by the 4th quarter, he's out of gas.

Of course, nobody can shut down shaq. But that also includes Ben.

Please. Ben never gets switched on to the othe rteam's best player, and he almost never blockes a shot unless it comes from the weak side of from behind. You mean like when he never switched onto LeBron on the perimeter and LBJ passed off rather than try to drive on Ben?

You mean when he never blocked Shaq so hard it broke my window?

or, off the top of my head, duncan several times. in fact, im quite certain ben got the dpoy my sophomore year of college... 2003 (?), for his man-to-man block on tim duncan on martin luther king day (it was at the end of the game).

never question my memory. EVER.

Please. Ben never gets switched on to the othe rteam's best player, and he almost never blockes a shot unless it comes from the weak side of from behind. You mean like when he never switched onto LeBron on the perimeter and LBJ passed off rather than try to drive on Ben?

You mean when he never blocked Shaq so hard it broke my window?

Yep.

Of course, Ben got dunked through the rim the next 4 times shaq caught the ball, but yes, it was a hell of a block.

Every now and then, ben will get one of those, but itll be sandwiched between getting 4 or 5 baskets scored on him.

And yes, Ben is probably a better perimeter defender than post defender because of his size and quickness. It's pretty easy to get shots off on ben one-on-one because he's only 6'8" and there's only so much he can do against taller players. By posting him up on the low block, you pretty much eliminate him as a shot-blocker, and Ben's only resort is to try to poke the ball away.

Please. Ben never gets switched on to the othe rteam's best player, and he almost never blockes a shot unless it comes from the weak side of from behind. You mean like when he never switched onto LeBron on the perimeter and LBJ passed off rather than try to drive on Ben?

You mean when he never blocked Shaq so hard it broke my window?

actually, if memory serves me correctly, didn't Lebron drive right past ben and dunk on him?

well, i was right that pistons played the spurs MLK day of 2003, but thats not the game i was thinking of, i dont think.

Please. Ben never gets switched on to the othe rteam's best player, and he almost never blockes a shot unless it comes from the weak side of from behind. You mean like when he never switched onto LeBron on the perimeter and LBJ passed off rather than try to drive on Ben?

You mean when he never blocked Shaq so hard it broke my window?

actually, if memory serves me correctly, didn't Lebron drive right past ben and dunk on him?

Yeah.

LeBron's hit three over ben, missed threes over ben, he's passed the ball off, and he's also put it on the floor and dunked on him.

Ben's as good a center as there is at guarding the perimeter, but that's not saying much.

well, i was right that pistons played the spurs MLK day of 2003, but thats not the game i was thinking of, i dont think.

Actually, it was MLK day of 2004.

actually, if memory serves me correctly, didn't Lebron drive right past ben and dunk on him?
Don't make me go to the tape Matt. You won't like the tape. :P

I'd rather work on my AJ/AA video than dig up the video but I distinctly remember LeBron sizing Ben up and passing away. He didn't want any of that.

actually, if memory serves me correctly, didn't Lebron drive right past ben and dunk on him? Don't make me go to the tape Matt. You won't like the tape. :P

I'd rather work on my AJ/AA video than dig up the video but I distinctly remember LeBron sizing Ben up and passing away. He didn't want any of that.

probably seperate plays, because i remember Ben being dunked on by Lebron. i remember the switch and then thinking, "haha, let's see how you fare against DPOY, King James." then he got dunked on :(

actually, if memory serves me correctly, didn't Lebron drive right past ben and dunk on him? Don't make me go to the tape Matt. You won't like the tape. :P

I'd rather work on my AJ/AA video than dig up the video but I distinctly remember LeBron sizing Ben up and passing away. He didn't want any of that.

probably seperate plays, because i remember Ben being dunked on by Lebron. i remember the switch and then thinking, "haha, let's see how you fare against DPOY, King James." then he got dunked on :(

I remember that play. It was at the Palace, game 5 I think.

another 'good' read? .... most people shouldnt read this, actually.

I thought his ability to get inside the lane would help off the bench. I just didnt realize it takes him 20 seconds to do that.

I thought his ability to get inside the lane would help off the bench. I just didnt realize it takes him 20 seconds to do that.

He gets in the lane alright, gets in and gets stuffed.

Murray isn't a chucker. He takes most of his shots inside 10 feet.

Again, I just said don't look at how he did in Cleveland, because they used him as a spot-up shooter, which was idiotic.

Flip isn't a good outside shooter. He's a slasher and mid-range shooter.

And oh yeah, his only playoff series was one in which (again) he was misused.

Come on, you have to admit it's nice to at least think positive for once, even if you go waaay overboard......

I think Murray is what we need: A scorer.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!

I love you Joe D.

NBA TITLE HERE WE COME!!!!!
im sorry, but that nba title quote was hilarious. But to your credit you recognized that he sucked at jump shots, of course the problem is that that doesnt stop him from shooting them.

I'm excited. Fuck y'all.
See even MOLA likes Flip. so its not like you were alone. I was wrong about Dale Davis being worthless. He kicked ass out there. Also i really reallyfelt the lakers would bomb.

The NBA title quote was obvious sarcasm. You know that.