http://images.usatoday.com/sports/_photos/2005/12/31/inside2-2005-12-31-pistons.jpg


http://www.mlive.com/pistons/audio/index.ssf?/pistons/audio/audio01.html

sounds like Flip is looking forward to pairing Sheed and Dice together towards the end of games. i wonder if we have yet to see Dice's best games since his injuries. he also talks about Delfino as the primary backup SF, instead of splitting time w/ Mo. he actually called it a "rift". not sure if that was just the word that came out, or there was some dissention there.

Flip blames the offense failing on Ben Wallace. That was pretty clear.

McCocsky also added that Flip let the players fdo it their way last year, and since it didn't work, this year it's his show.

Lots of back-handed Ben comments in there. It's safe to say that Flip was every bit as much the reason for Ben leaving as the money was. Flip doesn't appreciate the finer points of defense/hustle, and what it can bring to a team.

And that Delfino / Mo Evans "rift" comment was pretty interesting. I wonder if the two geniunely didn't get along.

And BTW, no I'm not excited about the no interior D lineup of Dice/Sheed to close games. Jumpers don't win close games. Lock down D and getting to the line does. These playoffs proved that.

...and ben couldn't BE on the court in the 4th quarter during close games, because he was such a liability on offense with the hack-a-ben.

Ben can't be on the floor to provide the defense you're talking about in close games, so apparently he wasn't the answer either.

...and ben couldn't BE on the court in the 4th quarter during close games, because he was such a liability on offense with the hack-a-ben.

Ben can't be on the floor to provide the defense you're talking about in close games, so apparently he wasn't the answer either.

... according to Flip.

...and ben couldn't BE on the court in the 4th quarter during close games, because he was such a liability on offense with the hack-a-ben.

Ben can't be on the floor to provide the defense you're talking about in close games, so apparently he wasn't the answer either.

... according to Flip.


According to anybody with two eyes that saw the games during the playoffs and saw the hack-a-ben killing our offense before it ever started.

Ben CANNOT play in the 4th quarter, because he will only get hacked and it kills our offensive rythem. I don't even see how that can be argued.

I'm sorry, but while Dice and Sheed don't excite me either, Ben wouldn't leave us much of a choice even if he DID come back.

Ben CANNOT play in the 4th quarter, because he will only get hacked and it kills our offensive rythem. I don't even see how that can be argued.


Then what was killing the rhythm in the first 3 quarters?

Ben CANNOT play in the 4th quarter, because he will only get hacked and it kills our offensive rythem. I don't even see how that can be argued.


Then what was killing the rhythm in the first 3 quarters?

Flip's point was that team were leaving ben open on purpose and immidiately hacking him before he could get up a shot, which bogged down the offense.

Wether that's the reason is up for debate, certainly.

I KNOW the reason Rip's foul-line curl was taken out of the game was because Cleveland and Miami sent their centers to hard-trap it, knowing full well Ben was no threat, so I think ben's at fault for that.

It's still up for debate. I just don't think there's any question that Ben cannot be in the game during the 4th quarter because of the intentional fouling.

ben's ft shooting was mind boggling bad in the playoffs. you wanna bet on it happening again? i'll take that bet any day.

hack a shack, hack a ben doesnt work. you cant rush into the penalty when we have to guards who will make 90% of its ft's, unless ben is shooting <25%.

funneling the ball to ben is nothing new. if flip wanted to see how you counter it, he should have watched some game film of our series last year against indiana. yea, it worked for a little while, but when we countered it got ugly.

the real question is: why did ben become SOOOOOO bad at offense. in the playoffs he was worse than he'd ever been. is he suddenly old? doubt it. everyone knows you got to feed the big men. LB knew it, flip didnt. but call ben a prima donna when he points out 5 on 5 is easier than 4 on 5. man, its easy to get pissed at this team fast.

Kstat, in the last 2 minutes of a game, they cant hack Ben if he dosnt have the ball. What the hell does hack a ben have to do with anything?

Its simple, you take him out, and at the 2 minute mark you put him back in. In Flips offense, Chauncey basicly goes iso in close games anyways, so the Rip curl play isnt even in use. And if Ben is the problem, have sheeds lazy ass set the screen and roll or flair.

As much credit Flip gets for being an offensive mastermind, he cant figure this out on his own? I figured it out 8 months ago.

Its simple, you take him out, and at the 2 minute mark you put him back in.

...and about the other 10 minutes in the 4th quarter?

Like B-diddy said, teams arent going to rush into the penalty just to send Ben to the FT line. Its not worth it. Unless you coach the clippers. Its not smart basketball. Hack a ben usually started with under 5 minutes to go. Most of the time less. A 3 minute rest isnt going to hurt Ben. Maybe offend him, but if so, fuck him for being a baby.

its way to easy to blame our shortcoming in the 2nd and 3rd round only on Ben, we played 4 on 5 on O for the last 6 years, RIP couldnt hit a shot, Sheed was hurt, Chauncey was tired, and Tay couldnt do it himself...we'll see how much we'll miss Ben...i am not sure we can hold teams under 100 points anymore...but i also expect us to score at least 100...our problems vs Cle wasnt the defense for sure and Ben/no one else can't stop Shaq 1on1...but we ve just added Nazr...our backup 1-3 are Lindsey, Acker, Delfino right now...we wont go anywhere with these guys

I'm listening to it now. The first comment about "What happened in the playoffs" Flip's comment is "Well we lost game one and with it home court."

.... .... ..... .... ..... .....

I don't like Flip.

One thing I really want to see is a more varied offense this year, not fifty variations of flex cut for a jumper. But I also realize it's not realistic for us to suddenly become a monster team at scoring in the paint, but we do need "easy baskets that aren't jumpers". Which means Flip will have to push Nazr to work the boards and tip in and all that stuff, and we probably need more slashing points from our perimeter guys. If delfino is still here, i'd like flip to push him on that front and make an effort to not always be "floating around the wing waiting for an open 3"
The Sheed + Dice lineup can't just be them both floating out for jumpers all the time, unless they're in against an unusually slow lineup (ie Shaq + Zo).

The idea is, jumpers don't always fall, period. They come in hot and cold streaks, as the point was made by many during the season (only to have the good regular season record that meant nothing thrown in faces). The other thing is, you cant do all jumpers all the time, then suddenly in round 3 of the playoffs decide, 'hey we gotta go inside now', it wont work. pistons looked impotent trying to play inside at times in round 2 and 3. how many times did Rip run straight into the teeth of the defense and lose it in that miami series? Nobody's suggesting we give up jumpers or some extraordinary overexaggeration like that, it should still be a strong part of our offense, but we need a balanced INSIDE-OUT attack. We've got the personnel for it, if we can do it, everybody else in the East is FUCKED>

And BTW, no I'm not excited about the no interior D lineup of Dice/Sheed to close games. Jumpers don't win close games. Lock down D and getting to the line does. These playoffs proved that.


Dice and Sheed are both better man to man post defenders than Ben.

Dice and Sheed are both better man to man post defenders than Ben.
Well, 1 out of 2 ain't bad. Dice couldn't defend the old lady from the "Where's the Beef?" commercials. Not without racking up fouls at a record pace.

@kstat ~ you gunna answer the Q FP22 put to you about the other 3 quarters? It's not like the Pistons are this all game offensive juggernaut until Hack-a-Ben occurs.

Flip is a weasel. Ben wanted to be somewhere else. A weasel, MVP-self promoting free environment. Good for him. That he got paid is proof positive that karma exists. The downside as Pistons fans is wondering when the Pistons pick up their share of the karmic debt. Last time we suffered in teal for Bedford (Darko), and Daly (Brown). Saint Joe couldn't keep the team from slipping into oblivion as a player. Maybe he can do it as a GM.

Dice and Sheed are both better man to man post defenders than Ben.
Well, 1 out of 2 ain't bad. Dice couldn't defend the old lady from the "Where's the Beef?" commercials. Not without racking up fouls at a record pace.

When the refs aren't whistling him for breathing Dice is an excellent defender. Even people that don't like to bitch about the refs can admit Dice gets royally dicked by the zebras.

When the refs aren't whistling him for breathing Dice is an excellent defender. Even people that don't like to bitch about the refs can admit Dice gets royally dicked by the zebras.
I'll admit that, but the refs are part of the game. When they stop having referees in the NBA, Antonio McDyess will probably flourish as a defender. Until then, he's a ticky-tack foul prone disaster.

Btw, I love the guy. :D

They were'nt calling him for ticky tack fouls for most of the Spurs series and he was our best post defender.

I'm listening to it now. The first comment about "What happened in the playoffs" Flip's comment is "Well we lost game one and with it home court."

.... .... ..... .... ..... .....

I don't like Flip.
you should be utterly ashamed of yourself for expecting a better answer *disgusted with fool's ignorance to the great "no balls to take the blame" legacy of Flippity Doo Da*.

Also i expected him to blame Ben too. Thats all he does is blame everybody else. A coach with no honor or balls. The truth is that Flip depended on Ben to do it all more than larry brown EVER did on defense. Defense is a team goal. LB understood that. he knew playing ben on shaq that long without switching up defenders would wear him down. its odd that we act like ben did less than he's ever done, when the truth is we asked him to do more than he's ever done. we asked him to be the ONLY legitimate defender on the court(besides hunter) last year. i'm not going to say its unfair, but acting like he's the one who hurt us is garbage.

Well in Flip's defense, whenever flip tried to go zone to give ben a break, ben basically torpedoed it by quitting and acting insulted.

Ben isn't the best zone defender on earth anyway, but he wasn't even trying half the time.

How is that in his defense?

I'm listening to it now. The first comment about "What happened in the playoffs" Flip's comment is "Well we lost game one and with it home court."

.... .... ..... .... ..... .....

I don't like Flip.
you should be utterly ashamed of yourself for expecting a better answer *disgusted with fool's ignorance to the great "no balls to take the blame" legacy of Flippity Doo Da*.

Also i expected him to blame Ben too. Thats all he does is blame everybody else. A coach with no honor or balls. The truth is that Flip depended on Ben to do it all more than larry brown EVER did on defense. Defense is a team goal. LB understood that. he knew playing ben on shaq that long without switching up defenders would wear him down. its odd that we act like ben did less than he's ever done, when the truth is we asked him to do more than he's ever done. we asked him to be the ONLY legitimate defender on the court(besides hunter) last year. i'm not going to say its unfair, but acting like he's the one who hurt us is garbage.

best post i've read in a long time.

Also i expected him to blame Ben too. Thats all he does is blame everybody else. A coach with no honor or balls.

Not that you aren't correct, but exactly how is larry brown any different?

Has larry ever taken criticism for anything in 30 years without deflecting it to a player or management in the press?

larry brown was never afraid to take criticism. if you really want me to find quotes where he took on the blame, i will (but not till after this thursday).

im not going to let this bs slide, especially when im 100% certain your completely wrong on this issue.

larry brown was never afraid to take criticism. if you really want me to find quotes where he took on the blame, i will (but not till after this thursday).

im not going to let this bs slide, especially when im 100% certain your completely wrong on this issue.

I could find flip quotes where he took blame too. What's your point? Both coaches put %99 of the blame on others.

Larry Brown blames his players for everything when shit doesn't go right. WHere the fuck have you been for 30 years?

Well in Flip's defense, whenever flip tried to go zone to give ben a break, ben basically torpedoed it by quitting and acting insulted.

Ben isn't the best zone defender on earth anyway, but he wasn't even trying half the time.
in the teams defense, no one wanted to play zone. not even billups. Sheed definately was against. Again you're trying to put it all on Ben much like flip(who isnt great at defending himself at all). But he never stopped us from playing zone and never stop playing because of zone defense. we were not a zone team, and once again defense is a team goal. That notion that its ben's fault we didnt play zone is pretty reachy even for you Kstat. The worst part is that our coach shares your thought process(or maybe you're sharing his with no real thought of your own, but rather a sense of agreeing with whatever is in favor of your favorites and against your dislikes).

When did it become ok to play ben on shaq for 30+ minutes with little or no switchups? Thats was never considered a soild gameplan before Flip got here. Now it is and Ben is a chump for getting worn down by a guy who outweighs him by damn near 100 pounds? Though we never doubled teamed, it was always a team effort to get things done with Ben as the catalyst. This year we put him out on a raft and told him to pull the whole ship. Please tell me a defender in the history of the nba who woulda performed better under those circumstances?

Well in Flip's defense, whenever flip tried to go zone to give ben a break, ben basically torpedoed it by quitting and acting insulted.

Ben isn't the best zone defender on earth anyway, but he wasn't even trying half the time.
in the teams defense, no one wanted to play zone. not even billups. Sheed definately was against. Again you're trying to put it all on Ben much like flip(who isnt great at defending himself at all). But he never stopped us from playing zone and never stop playing because of zone defense. we were not a zone team, and once again defense is a team goal. That notion that its ben's fault we didnt play zone is pretty reachy even for you Kstat. The worst part is that our coach shares your thought process(or maybe you're sharing his with no real thought of your own, but rather a sense of agreeing with whatever is in favor of your favorites and against your dislikes).

When did it become ok to play ben on shaq for 30+ minutes with little or no switchups? Thats was never considered a soild gameplan before Flip got here. Now it is and Ben is a chump for getting worn down by a guy who outweighs him by damn near 100 pounds? Though we never doubled teamed, it was always a team effort to get things done with Ben as the catalyst. This year we put him out on a raft and told him to pull the whole ship. Please tell me a defender in the history of the nba who woulda performed better under those circumstances?

I'm not blaming Ben for shaq's domination of the miami series. I don't see how anybody would.

I will blame him for the fact we could never get a good offensive flow, because he kept getting exploited.

I HATE zones, but at the very least it would have allowed ben to get some rest on the defensive end.

Has larry ever taken criticism for anything in 30 years without deflecting it to a player or management in the press?
you're arguing just to argue now. It sucks to see this become so obvious. Yes Larry Brown has taken the blame numerous times to deflect it away from his players even when its not his fault. For example the sheed fuckup in the finals. I'm hoping you're not so old that your memory is fading.

but hey i'll point out what you're hoping for. You're hoping that we only remember larry brown blaming his drama queen resigning/firing on everyone but himself. unfortunately he never brought that attitude to the basketball court. nice try though.

I HATE zones, but at the very least it would have allowed ben to get some rest on the defensive end.
well you better get ready for a whole lotta zone this year because Ben was the guy most adamant about the Pistons playing straight up man to man. No gimmicks.

I loved our zone btw. It gave the other team a different look to score on. Kept them interested [smilie=duh.gif]

I'm not blaming Ben for shaq's domination of the miami series. I don't see how anybody would.

I will blame him for the fact we could never get a good offensive flow, because he kept getting exploited.

I HATE zones, but at the very least it would have allowed ben to get some rest on the defensive end.

I'm not blaming Ben for shaq's domination of the miami series. I don't see how anybody would.
but do you admit it was idiocy to keep him on shaq?


I will blame him for the fact we could never get a good offensive flow, because he kept getting exploited.
once again how does this not fall back on the coach when the coach before him got better results by involving him more? Honesty is all its about you make a man an option andf teams have to defend him. you dont, they dont. why make rocket science out of the obvious.



I HATE zones, but at the very least it would have allowed ben to get some rest on the defensive end.
not as much rest as switching sheed on shaq and letting ben cover him from a help out mode. he's proven time and time again to be quick enough to recover on zo and haslem. If it aint broke why are we fixing all these things that worked. see thats what kills us. with every strength flip develops for us, he develops a defeciency somewhere else. you dont change everything. we werent in last place before he got here. either way agree to disagree. the sky isnt blue today for you kstat and i'm sure you're willing to argue as much.

[
I loved our zone btw. It gave the other team a different look to score on. Kept them interested [smilie=duh.gif]
as a change of pace? yes i love it like that. as a consistent defense its a joke.

I loved our zone btw. It gave the other team a different look to score on. Kept them interested [smilie=duh.gif] as a change of pace? yes i love it like that. as a consistent defense its a joke.
I was being facetious Mr. Gutz. [smilie=rofl.gif]

once again how does this not fall back on the coach when the coach before him got better results by involving him more?

1. Ben fit Larry's offense much better than flip's I won't deny that.

However, Ben did Flip no favors by being to ungodly AWFUL on offense that giving him the ball more would be just what the other team wants.

You can't shoot %27 from the line and expect to hurt teams under the basket. You just can't.



not as much rest as switching sheed on shaq and letting ben cover him from a help out mode.

My problem is that Shaq has over 100 lbs on Sheed, and he's come within a hair of putting sheed out of commision several times.

All Sheed can do is pull the chair, and that only works once. After that, it's easy dunking.

If elden hadn't retired, maybe we wouldnt be having that discussion.

I could find flip quotes where he took blame too. What's your point? Both coaches put %99 of the blame on others.

Larry Brown blames his players for everything when shit doesn't go right. WHere the fuck have you been for 30 years?

This post is so laughable that it's become apparent that you are playing the "over the top contrarian" role soley for your own amusement.

I could find flip quotes where he took blame too. What's your point? Both coaches put %99 of the blame on others.

Larry Brown blames his players for everything when shit doesn't go right. WHere the fuck have you been for 30 years?

This post is so laughable that it's become apparent that you are playing the "over the top contrarian" role soley for your own amusement.
Yea Kstat is just looking to say anything.

once again how does this not fall back on the coach when the coach before him got better results by involving him more?

1. Ben fit Larry's offense much better than flip's I won't deny that.

However, Ben did Flip no favors by being to ungodly AWFUL on offense that giving him the ball more would be just what the other team wants.

You can't shoot %27 from the line and expect to hurt teams under the basket. You just can't.



not as much rest as switching sheed on shaq and letting ben cover him from a help out mode.

My problem is that Shaq has over 100 lbs on Sheed, and he's come within a hair of putting sheed out of commision several times.

All Sheed can do is pull the chair, and that only works once. After that, it's easy dunking.

If elden hadn't retired, maybe we wouldnt be having that discussion.

1.)Ben was never great offensively. I dont get your point of him being so "awful" when he wasnt being involved on offense in the first place. As far as fitting the offense, thats a gay as richard simmons excuse. You mean to tell me you think flip is an offensive guru, but can't out do LB in finding a way to involve Ben? It doesnt matter what play he drew up. Its not about that as long as he worked something out to get him the ball and keep teams honest. Saying he "fit" LB's offense better is a joke. the only difference is that he doesn't get the ball. This is isnt a slasher who likes sideline pick and rolls not feeling the flex offense. you keep trying to overcomplicate it like ben was telling him to draw up a 54 x z to the 5th power roll and pick play. he just needed to be kept in the offense no matter what your philosophy is.


2.)you do realize elden barely played? he was just another body. Shaq will dunk on everybody at some point. its not about him. its about us. you dont leave anybody on somebody that big that long. we'd throw in dyess, eleden, sheed, and ben at shaq. he always saw something different and couldnt wear no one down. that was the plan. you seem to think the plan was have elden play 30 minutes on shaq, which never happened. we were lucky if he played 10 minutes. as far as size goes, cato shoulda go a couple minutes too. But thats not what Flip was doing. he was just saying "ben got it", which is what he had been saying all year. So in you horrible effort to sidetrack the original point, how is this Ben's fault?

2.)you do realize elden barely played? he was just another body. Shaq will dunk on everybody at some point. its not about him. its about us. you dont leave anybody on somebody that big that long. we'd throw in dyess, eleden, sheed, and ben at shaq. he always saw something different and couldnt wear no one down. that was the plan. you seem to think the plan was have elden play 30 minutes on shaq, which never happened. we were lucky if he played 10 minutes. as far as size goes, cato shoulda go a couple minutes too. But thats not what Flip was doing. he was just saying "ben got it", which is what he had been saying all year. So in you horrible effort to sidetrack the original point, how is this Ben's fault?
According to a news story I can no longer find, LB had wanted to play Elden against Shaq more in 2005, even -start- Elden, but Ben insisted that he could handle him and LB relented.

According to a news story I can no longer find, LB had wanted to play Elden against Shaq more in 2005, even -start- Elden, but Ben insisted that he could handle him and LB relented.
yes and for periodic moments he could make plays on him. but overall he saw split time against shaq. LB may have been willing to let him have his pride. but he was no fool.