ben wallace is officially a FA, and technically no longer a piston.

this is probably the most important day of the rest of his life. he is the undisputed king of the FA class.

here are the 5 teams under the cap this year:

hawks (18.2 under)
bobcats (24.6)
bulls (17.5)
NO/OK (16.9)
raptors (12.9)

(LAC and jazz have slightly more than the MLE in cap space)

raptors and bobcats will be targeting Peja.

Hawks will be targeting al harrignton.

NO/OK will be targeting no one, their owner is george shinn.

Bulls will likely go after a cheaper and younger joel pryzbilla. They arent dumb enough to pay ben $15-18 million when he wont make them a contender in the years he has left in his prime.

Ben will take Joe's $12,000,001 (highest on the team) offer and either be happy with it or test the waters and realize its the best offer he has.

http://www.mlive.com/pistons/stories/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/1143564006297030.xml&coll=1

ben's in chicago today.

Good.

I dont want any complaints from him if chicago offers less than we do.

If they want to offer $15-17 million, god bless ben and I hope he has a great life.

I will say, this definately seems like an arn tellam strategy to try to make joe nervous by visiting a division rival on day 1. I hope Joe doesnt buy it.

My only wish, if we do lose ben to chicago, is that we dont sign and trade for chicken chandler.

letting him walk OK, trading for any other player on chicago's roster OK.

Being stuck with Chandler's contract for the next 6 years would pretty much kill our chances of ever getting another title out of this group.

scary time to be a Piston's fan....

scary time to be a Piston's fan....


Not to me. I can see positive possibilities in any scenario not involving tyson chandler.

Letting Ben go outright would sting a little, but it'd also give joe more flexibility to work some magic and get someone else, as well as ensure chauncey will stay a piston.

I'm not saying I want ben to go, but if the reality is he wants $15+ million, it's better than the alternative.

Why would the Bobcats target Peja?

Why would Atlanta try and re-sign Harrington, when they have enough young forwards and have other needs?

And while I agree NO might target no one, I think the ownership situation in Atlanta is worse.

scary time to be a Piston's fan....

Not to me. I can see positive possibilities in any scenario not involving tyson chandler.

Letting Ben go outright would sting a little, but it'd also give joe more flexibility to work some magic and get someone else, as well as ensure chauncey will stay a piston.

I'm not saying I want ben to go, but if the reality is he wants $15+ million, it's better than the alternative.

there's reason to be optimistic....but there's equal reason to be worried, imo.

i think the way things went down at the end of the season (w/ the off-court drama) makes me more scared than i should be. if we had fizzled out of the playoffs and there was no rumors of dissention, i'd be a little more confident.

the uncertainty has me a little worried. slappiness aside, i do trust that Joe D will make the best of whatever happens.

What's there to be worried about? Ben stays or Ben goes. It's simple as that.

As long as we dont get saddled with a huge-ass deal, im ok with the outcome.

What's there to be worried about? Ben stays or Ben goes. It's simple as that.

As long as we dont get saddled with a huge-ass deal, im ok with the outcome.

Ben's staying/leaving or signing/trading him, could affect the future of the team. that's what's worrisome to me. i'm not overreacting.....just saying it's a more scary time than in recent memory. i think it's sort of like a fork in the road for the team.

Assuming Ben walks:

We're still so far over the cap it's not funny.

Which means we'd now have the MLE and BAE to address our weak C position, grab a slasher and a back-up PG.

Holy Shit! Fuck that!

I'd hate to tell you this, but he'd be UNDER the cap if ben walked for nothing...

$46 million payroll is where we're at right now.

Cap is expected to be around $49 million. Luxury tax at $61 million.

I hate to point this out to you but if our payroll is $46,000,000 and the cap is $49,000,000 we're not under the cap.

Since we're under the cap by less than the MLE we only get the MLE to spend.

We could be stupid and renounce the MLE, which gives us $3,000,000 to spend.

So, um, yeah - we'd have no cap room to sign anyone, just the MLE and BAE.

Best Case Scenario?

The cap goes up to $52,000,000, which gives us $6,000,000 in cap space IF Ben walks.

And in that scenario we'd still only get both exceptions, because combined the MLE and BAE equal more than $6,000,000.

So, um, yeah - we'd have no cap room to sign anyone, just the MLE and BAE

I hate to point this out to you but if our payroll is $46,000,000 and the cap is $49,000,000 we're not under the cap.

Since we're under the cap by less than the MLE we only get the MLE to spend.

We could be stupid and renounce the MLE, which gives us $3,000,000 to spend.

So, um, yeah - we'd have no cap room to sign anyone, just the MLE and BAE.

Best Case Scenario?

The cap goes up to $52,000,000, which gives us $6,000,000 in cap space IF Ben walks.

And in that scenario we'd still only get both exceptions, because combined the MLE and BAE equal more than $6,000,000.

So, um, yeah - we'd have no cap room to sign anyone, just the MLE and BAE

Being under the cap means you're under the cap.

Granted, we still have all the exemptions, but the fact is we're 3 million under the threshhold.

But yes, you';re right. It's possible for us to have essentially TWO MLEs to use over the summer, if Ben walks.

That's why I wouldnt be horrified if Ben walked, and why I also don't want tyson chandler eating up all that space.

But yes, you';re right. It's possible for us to have essentially TWO MLEs to use over the summer, if Ben walks.

That's why I wouldnt be horrified if Ben walked, and why I also don't want tyson chandler eating up all that space.
I don't get this logic at all.

We don't have two MLEs. DO NOT.

Ben walks without a S&T, that's suicide.

But yes, you';re right. It's possible for us to have essentially TWO MLEs to use over the summer, if Ben walks.

That's why I wouldnt be horrified if Ben walked, and why I also don't want tyson chandler eating up all that space.
I don't get this logic at all.

We don't have two MLEs. DO NOT.

Ben walks without a S&T, that's suicide.


Um, he just explained it for you.

If ben walked, we'd have a little under the MLE in cap space, plus the actual MLE to use on top of that.

We could offer two different players $5 million+ each.

I'm not going to argue that we're better with ben gone, but we WOULD be better not having ben if ben asks for 15 million, meaning that when he's 36 he'd probably be making $20 million.

If we were a guarenteed lock at another ring, that would be different. But we're not coming off a championship, so the pressure to keep the team intact isn't there.

Um, he just explained it for you.

If ben walked, we'd have a little under the MLE in cap space, plus the actual MLE to use on top of that.

We could offer two different players $5 million+ each.



No. The MLE is granted to teams that are over the cap or under it less than the MLE's value. But you can't use both cap space (3 Mil) and the MLE (roughly 5 Mil). No big spending for us no matter what Ben does.

Ah, yeah, i forgot that part.

Either way, we're still in very good shape as far as trade flexibility goes.

Kstat - re-read my post.

If we are under the CAP by more than the MLE, we get that amount of money to spend.

If we are under the cap by less than the MLE, we get the MLE.

There is no way you get 2 MLE.

And like I said above:

Since the exceptions combined are more than $6mil if ben walks we're fucked.

We'd have the MLE and the BAE to replace Ben, grab a slasher and a PG.

No fucking chance that happens.

And we wouldn't be $3,000,000 under the threshold if Ben walked.

We'd be $3,000,000 under the cap.

The threshold that is always spoken about is the luxury tax threshold. It's expected to be around $63,000,000 for the next season.

So, at $46,000,000 right now with the guys under contract we are $17,000,000 under the tax threshold.

If we use the MLE we're down to $12,000,000.

If we use the BAE, we're down to $10,200,000

If we bring back Hunter, Delk or Cato for the veteran minimum we're down to $9,100,000

That would have to be Ben's starting salary, otherwise we hit the tax threshold and pay a dollar for dollar tax.

Oh, and then throw in the salaries for Acker and Blalock if we sign them, too.

Congrats Ben - for your years of service and hard work you're starting salary will be:

$8,000,000!

Thanks for playing. Make sure you don't visit Chicago on your way to the office.

I never said we'd refuse to go over the cap to sign ben. I dont believe that at all.

All reports are saying we're offering $12 million, which is very fucking fair.

If he doesnt like it, yes, he can go to chicago for $70+ million over the next 4 years. Be my guest.

Ok, I need to sleep dude, but we aren't in good shape for trade flexibility.

If we lose Ben, and can't easily trade CB or Dice (kickers), that leaves Sheed, or Rip because Tay is a BYC player. Everyone else on the roster makes peanuts (relatively, the average salary is around $5 million and no one outside the 6 make that).

I'll write it again, so you can stare at it and let it burn onto your retinas.

Ben walks without a S&T, that's suicide.

Trade flexibility? WTF?

Who are you going to trade?

Davis and his massive salary?

LMAO - there is no one to trade outside the Top 6.

If Ben walks we're fucked. End of story.

If ben signs for $15+ million we're fucked anyway. I'd rather have the flexibility, but that's just me.

As for the flexibility, we have cap space.

We have an expiring deal in dale davis we can use, the orlando pick, and the other 5 members of the "starting 6."

Last time I checked, we have pieces left to work with.

For the last fucking time- I DONT WANT BEN TO GO. But at the same time, if he left for anything except chandler, we'd be in ok shape. Not contenders anymore, but not awful either.

But if Ben signs back for too much, we'd be ok next year and totally fucked every year after that. Not a gamble i'd want to take.

I just hope ben takes the $ 12 million and is happy with being the richest no-offense player in history.

Refuse to go over the cap? We're over the cap now.

You mean the luxury tax threshold.

And yeah, we're probably offering him $12,000,000.

If we wanna spend the full MLE though you can also expect to see Davis dumped for a trade exception (hello Charlotte).

Then you might get Acker, Blalock and someone like Ronald Dupree on the team, with Hunter and MAYBE a veteran big man for cheap depth.

Bottom Line:

The Top 6 will be joined by Delfino and a MLE player.

Amir and Maxiell will get a shot at playing time and Hunter will be back for one last season.

Other than those guys it's cheap ass depth all the way.

No, we don't have the other 5. You missed that.

CB and Dice have trade kickers. Tay can only be traded for half of the value of his new deal.

That essentially leaves Sheed and Rip as dollar for dollar trade options.

So if Ben walks, and our starting Center is Dale Davis, how do you propose we shore up the team with a bonafide starting Center by trading away Rip or Sheed who are both relatively cheap considering their stature, skills and position?

Signing Ben to $12 million vs. $15 million means CRAP. Almost every contender is over the cap. Many of them paying tax. $3 or $6 million a year won't make a lick of difference if Joe intends to re-sign Wallace and Billups. We won't be under the cap again (read: flexibility) for years unless this team is completely torn down to brass tacks.

Enough with the vague references. You see better plans, lay them out.

Signing Ben to $12 million vs. $15 million means CRAP.


Yeah, tell me that next year when billups is up for re-signing.

We'll be contenders for one year, and then we'll be over the hill, capped out, and we'll have no way to get better.

Great plan.

I'm sorry, but you can't give ben a contract like that. You just can't. It's utterly irresponbile, considering his aging status in a league that keep legislating rules AGAINST him.

If we were coming off a title, then yeah you sacrifice the next 5 years to have another shot next season. But there's no sure thing we'll be any better next year than this year with the same starting 5.

Can't give a guy $70 million when he only plays one side of the floor.

And OK, as much as I'd hate to trade rip, joe would still have rip and sheed to work with, which is more than most teams.

The only thing that worries me about giving Ben those few extra million is that cheap ass owner of ours. He's likely to say "give him that, but we're cutting it off in other places, and we aren't adding Free Agents". Otherwise, it wouldn't be a problem. I'd just assume say give him as much as we can over 4 years. But Bill Davidson doesn't work that way. He's going to be cheap with the deal, and cheap with the moves afterwards because of the deal.

Not wanting to skyrocket over the luxury tax=cheap

LOL

If it was money well spent that would be one thing, but that would definately not be money well spent.

I'm sure we can go over the luxury tax, we just have to make sure it's money well-spent.

No matter what we're using the MLE this offseason. Joe's already gone on record with that.

Although, I don't see one realistic target that's worth the full MLE.

I agree - we should not pay Ben $15mil.

But $12mil is more than fair.

However, by the numbers we can't pay Ben that money and use the full MLE without going over the tax threshold.

If Davidson is a cheap prick then expect another trade for nothing or expect us not to use the full MLE.

We're at $46mil now, right?

Plus $12mil for Ben and $5mil for the MLE.

That's $63mil and this is our roster:

Ben, Sheed, Prince, Rip, Billups with Davis, Dice, Maxiell, Amir, Delfino on the bench.

If we bring back Acker and then sign Blalock that adds $1mil to the payroll and begins our tax bill.

Bringing back Hunter or Delk or ADDING any other veteran for the minimum adds another $1,100,000 to the payroll, and therefore adds that much to the tax bill.

If we use the BAE (costs $1,800,000) we're now up to $66.9 for our TEAM SALARY!

The tax bill, if that $63mil tax threshold is accurate? $3,900,000.

(by not using the BAE we can slash our tax bill to $2,100,000. Is that low enough for Billy D?)

BTW, that tax figure and the team salary also assumes we renounce ALL our trade exceptions.

How do we reduce our tax payments? Who almost clears our tax bill?

Dale Davis! Trading him to Charlotte for a future second round pick helps them out. They get closer to the minimum salary limit they have to spend, without fucking up their long-term structure.

We then only have a tax bill of $400,000. (IF we used the BAE)

I guess we could not re-sign Acker. That would mean we'd have no tax bill at all.

And if all that happened this is our roster

Ben, Sheed, Prince, Rip, Billups plus Dice, Maxiell, full MLE, Amir, Delfino, BAE, Hunter, Blalock.

Nice!

Yeah, tell me that next year when billups is up for re-signing.

We'll be contenders for one year, and then we'll be over the hill, capped out, and we'll have no way to get better.

Great plan.
You must be a lot of fun a parties.

The bottom line in this discussion is that you don't see any tangible and realistic better options, and do not appear to have a firm grasp of basic CBA or NBA finance concepts.

$3 million dollars a year means nothing to our cap situation. We're gunna be capped out even if Ben leaves and we don't replace him for 3 years.

I'm sorry, but you can't give ben a contract like that. You just can't. It's utterly irresponbile, considering his aging status in a league that keep legislating rules AGAINST him.
Can you name one rule they have legislated against Ben with? As far as I know, Ben doesn't foul out, and is one of the best player's in the league at playing physical without extra contact.


Can't give a guy $70 million when he only plays one side of the floor.
Why not? We gave Darko $20 million when his ass could only shine one side of the bench.


The only thing that worries me about give Ben those few extra million is that cheap ass owner of ours. He's likely to say "give him that, but we're cutting it off in other places, and we aren't adding Free Agents". So, while we won't be "under the cap", it will still likely hurt our chances of adding pieces in free agency if we give the guy some stupid deal.
That's 100% valid and a legitimate concern.

I agree - we should not pay Ben $15mil.

But $12 is more than fair.

However, by the numbers we can't pay Ben that money and use the full MLE without going over the tax threshold.

If Davidson is a cheap prick then expect another trade for nothing or expect us not to use the full MLE.

We're at $46mil now, right?

Plus $12mil for Ben and $5mil for the MLE.

That's $63mil and this is our roster:

Ben, Sheed, Prince, Rip, Billups with Davis, Dice, Maxiell, Amir, Delfino on the bench.

If we bring back Acker and then sign Blalock that adds $1mil to the payroll and begins our tax bill.

Bringing back Hunter for the minimum adds another $1,100,000 to the payroll, and therefore adds that much to the tax bill.

If we use the BAE (costs $1,800,000) we're now up to $66.9 for our TEAM SALARY!

The tax bill, if that $63mil tax threshold is accurate? $3,900,000.

BTW, that tax figure and the team salary also assumes we renounce ALL our trade exceptions.

How do we reduce our tax payments? Who almost clears our tax bill?

Dale Davis! Trading him to Charlotte for a future second round pick helps them out. They get closer to the minimum salary limit they have to spend, without fucking up their long-term structure.

We then only have a tax bill of $400,000.

I guess we could not re-sign Acker. That would mean we'd have no tax bill at all.

And if all that happened this is our roster

Ben, Sheed, Prince, Rip, Billups plus Dice, Maxiell, full MLE, Amir, Delfino, Hunter, Blalock.

Nice!


hence the difference between the "measley" 3 million that I wouldnt be willing to pay ben wallace.....

Fucking Hell!

I fucking gave Ben the $12mil you suggested!

WTF? Pay attention.

Fucking Hell!

I fucking gave Ben the $12mil you suggested!

WTF? Pay attention.

Um, I just agreed with you.

Yeah, you agree about us only paying Ben $12,000,000

Now read the rest of it.

Did you get to the part about trading Davis for nothing?

Did you read the part about possibly not using the BAE, just to save money?

I don't think you understand what effect this "no tax payments" demand has on this team.

If Davidson continues to keep his wallet closed you can say goodbye to signing impact players with the MLE, UNLESS you plan on using minimum wage earners 11 through 15.

Sure, we'll go 10-deep for a season or 2, until the young guys come up for new contracts and we can't afford to pay them the market value because of the tax.

Find me where it says there IS a "no tax demand" on this team. It;s a fabrication people made up and it snowballed because we havent paid the luxury tax yet.

Nevermind we havent had a REASON to yet....

We havent had the opportunity to go over the tax with a smart decision. THat doesnt say to me that we wont if the opportunity arises.

If we sign ben at $12 million, and joe sees a guy he HAS to have at the MLE, I'm %100 sure davidson will ok going over the tax. I have yet to be given a reason to think otherwise.

THere's a difference between being smart and being cheap.

Let's get one thing clear.

The Pistons have PROFITED from being under the luxury threshold, because any escrow or tax disbursements have rolled into the coffers while they paid nothing out.

By going a few million over the LT, the Pistons are probably looking at breaking even as the disbursement will equal the tax paid. The teams that lose out are the Mavs and Knicks that are paying so much more than the LT.

So after this off-season you'll get the answer to that question:

Is Davidson cheap?

And you'll also know if there is a "no tax demand" on Joe, based on what is done this off-season.

And before I go:

We could always buy out Davis for $2,400,000 (he signs elsewhere for the vet minimum), saving us even more money.

Hey, when that $1,100,000 tunrs into $2,200,000 when you're over the tax it's not a bad move to buy him out.

Let's get one thing clear.

The Pistons have PROFITED from being under the luxury threshold, because any escrow or tax disbursements have rolled into the coffers while they paid nothing out.

By going a few million over the LT, the Pistons are probably looking at breaking even as the disbursement will equal the tax paid. The teams that lose out are the Mavs and Knicks that are paying so much more than the LT.

I know under the previous CBA if we didn't pay ANY tax we got a full share return.

If we were slightly over the tax we got a partial share.

I have not checked how the luxury tax shares are distributed under the new CBA.

Has anyone else checked?

Pharaoh True or False

We could trade Ben for a partial TE? For example We traded him for Noiconi and a 6 million dollar TE since they have cap space? Thus we got a bench player and could use the TE to get a veteran replacement for Ben or the SF spot is that possible?

I think everyone gets and equal cut of the lux tax money. I thought the new CBA ended rewarding teams who didn't spend.

I have not checked how the luxury tax shares are distributed under the new CBA.

Has anyone else checked? Yes. I have checked.

Teams under the tax get a 30th share based on number of teams in the league. The remainder is spent at the league's discretion and any portion allocated to be disbursed gets distributed equally amongst all teams.

If it wasn't 3:30 AM, I would look up the approx. tax paid, subtract the 1/30th shares and then divide the remainder equally amongst the 30 teams, assuming the league doesn't need it to keep the WNBA afloat or finance fake fans at NBDL games, and voila, we would know exactly how much of the tax the Pistons could pay and would be reimbursed.

Bottom line, there is a cost to being over the LT. It's losing out on that 30th share. But the dollar for dollar stuff is malarky unless the Pistons tax exceeds the payout.

I believe you are correct J. I remember something like being mentioned at the time, but its been so long since the CBA was discussed I'm a little rusty.

Pharaoh True or False

We could trade Ben for a partial TE? For example We traded him for Noiconi and a 6 million dollar TE since they have cap space? Thus we got a bench player and could use the TE to get a veteran replacement for Ben or the SF spot is that possible?

True!

You could even trade Ben to Chicago for a future second round pick and get a trade exception the size of his salary.

The TE doesn't get us more cap space, because without Ben we're over the cap anyway.

But it does give us another exception to somehow find another player, without using the MLE or BAE.

microwave: Good job.

And you're 100% right.

If we're getting back $3,000,000 in tax from the league, but only paying $1,000,000 then shouldn't the owner be happy?

That's the key for me - I wish you could do the math right now.

If possible could you do it tomorrow?

We'll see when I wake up, I'm already committed to a couple other projects.

It is an interesting project for sure.

Cool - it's not urgent, so whenever you get to it.

That should be a rather interesting find.

Certainly could make Billy D looks bad/worse, depending on what you think of him at the moment.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bull01.html

Source: Bulls targeting Wallace as top priority


thats Chandlers contract btw

Tyson Chandler
8,448,845
8,448,845
9,335,974
10,223,102
11,110,231
11,997,360
12,884,488
BYC until 7/1/06 / Counts as $4,801,102 for trade purposes (BYC player) / Signed 9/1/05 for an assumed $64,000,000 for 6 years / Reportedly has incentives not included here

I really worry about a Chandler for Wallace sign and trade.

Chandler is the anti-Wallace. Never had to do anything, silver platter, silver spoon, never even had to bother going to college, lottery pick, big money without producing, back problems, seems slow and lazy out there, drafted several years ago and STILL hasn't lived up even close to potential, always has an excuse, doesn't seem to want to get better, seems content, everyone is STILL waiting for him to break out, and acting like its a given and it will only take time (Joe Smith, anyone?), etc.

Ben - 4 years in a small college w/o fanfare, undrafted, went overseas, bounced around, had to earn a contract, no one gave him shit, fought his way into the league and improved year by year, looks like he would die rather than give up a rebound.

Big difference.

In fact, just think about the head to heads with these two teams, and how shitty Chandler looks compared to Ben out there.

Keep in mind that in the 2005 season, no one knew what the CBA would be like Dumars made the mistake of thinking the current CBA would be worse than the old, and made moves based on that premise.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bull01.html

Source: Bulls targeting Wallace as top priority


I guarantee you that at least 75% of the reason they want him is to fuck us over.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bull01.html

Source: Bulls targeting Wallace as top priority


I guarantee you that at least 75% of the reason they want him is to fuck us over.
if you were the bulls you would too. Not to mention his value on defense increases their decent defense to an elite championship level defense possibly.

dude Chandler is garbage. a better version of mikki moore. though being a better version of someone who sucks isnt always a good thing. he can rebound with his length, but can't box out well. He couldnt even crack the starting lineup in chicago with sweetney and some former heat bench player ahead of him. Trading someone who can't score much but plays great game changing defense for someone who can't score much, play defense, or box out(but can block shots) isn't a happy deal to me.

I don't hate Chandler nearly as much as some seemingly do here. I think a change of scenery could be a good thing for the kid, along with the fact that he'd be playing on a veteran team for the first time in his career.
Yes players you dont hate as much, yet hate them nonetheless are a great pickup. [smilie=blaha.gif]


Also didn't he play highschool ball with Tay Prince?? (Along with Acker, we'd have three Compton boys on our roster).
Ummm you must've ran out of decent bullshit to sell this. [smilie=rofl.gif] Who gives 1/10 of a shit about that? all this means is they'll all smoke weed together.


I think we could still be an upper echelon team with Chandler coming our way, but if Ben walks for nothing, I think we're screwed.
Hate to break this to ya, but we're screwed either way. chandler isnt even a starter IMO. And Starting Mcdyees is a serious gamble. I'd just as soon rather take someone like Gordon, Nocioni, and/or deng and trade them for a big of starter quality.

well, bringing in chandler probably means that sheed would be next on the chopping block. maybe pharoah's idea of sheed for rose and frye.

i know i was adamant about moving sheed, but this whole offseason looks like its going to be very depressing to me.

well, bringing in chandler probably means that sheed would be next on the chopping block. maybe pharoah's idea of sheed for rose and frye.

i know i was adamant about moving sheed, but this whole offseason looks like its going to be very depressing to me.
trading sheed=officially rebuilding. get ready for two more seasons of the heat winning titles with an old fat geezer shaq and dwayne wade, with no one but chicago and cleveland to challenge them.

of course i doubt that we lose sheed or ben wallace. if the bulls only offer 15 million, i think we probally match it. its 17-20 million that takes us out of the running.

I agree with Pharaoh
Pharaoh is right about everything.
Thank you for saving me some brain power and key strokes.


Ben goes - we're fucked. Simple as that. I dont even know where Kstat is coming from. 12mill is perfect. The only NBA plyer that couldnt score the ball and made more money was Rodman. And as good as Ben is, Rodman was better. STFU sign the contract and play. All along you've been saying its not abou the money, but who gives you a chance to win. Heres your $12 mill, go block a shot.

i thought the max base salary ben could get was 14?

I really hope Ben fucking leaves, he pisses me off.

Even if Ben goes, I could see Pryzbilla as being a pretty decent substitute. If we get another good big man in a S & T in Ben we might actually come out about even.

Even if Ben goes, I could see Pryzbilla as being a pretty decent substitute. If we get another good big man in a S & T in Ben we might actually come out about even.
thats some serious hope. we could maybe increase the depth. but that doesnt equate to coming out even, except against shaq. But otherwise pryzbilla is pretty flat footed. I'd prefer someone more athletic and not skinny as a toothpick like chandler is.

The problem with Przybilla is that he's constantly injured. Look at his games played over his career. It's pretty ugly.

i thought the max base salary ben could get was 14?
$16.8 million for a 10 year veteran.

As much as Chandler bashing seems the in thing to do, I won't. With fear of copy right infringement, until Chandler got hurt in the playoffs he really came into a new level of play, like he got it. Secondly the number to remember is 23, Chandler is 23 not 32, if we wrote off every guy who hasn't hit his stride by 23 well Ben would have never been on the Pistons. Also unless you think Eddie Curry counts, Chandler never played with a decent front court SF and PF. I think putting Chandler out there to board and play defense and asking him to put up Ben numbers is not impossible. No question you can't replace the intangibles of Ben but I think you can fill his numbers void. Plus the likleyhood of a Noiconi be included in a deal is high. Assuming Delfino is ready to set up, Nocioni, Delfino and Dice and having the MLE and BAE to add a PG or C is far more appealing than losing Ben for nothing and having to get depth with the MLE and BAE.

Chandler & Noc for Ben?

Sign me up!

If we can get Deng or Nocioni in return for taking chandler off their hands, i'd do it in a heartbeat.

chicago rolled the red carpet out for ben. that's what i heard tonight...

i think in some ways he would be smart to go there. he would help them and they also have a bunch of young talent. so they could legitimately be a contender with another move or so.

plus he would get paid bigtime...

as for us, if ben leaves and we can't do a sign and trade, we only have the MLE and veteran's minimum to use. so it's not like we'll have cap room to pursue whatever other crappy FAs we might want to fill ben's shoes.

so yeah, we sort of our screwed if ben leaves. but then again, would we win a title if he came back? that's very questionable too.

so perhaps his loss might spark another trade or 2 which would give us a better chance down the line. who knows.

it just sucks so bad we don't have darko now. not that he could be our savior or anything close. but he has phenomenal talent and instead of possibly replacing ben, he'll be emerging as a bright young player in another team's jersey.

as for us, if ben leaves and we can't do a sign and trade, we only have the MLE and veteran's minimum to use.

Exactly what does one have to do with the other?

if all they offered was 15 million. Ben stays. i dont know if that rumor is true or not though.

I heard Ben was in Chicago after midnight.

I heard Ben was in Chicago after midnight.

Tellam probably is paying ben's hotel fee to be there all weekend.

The more it looks like ben is thinking chicago, the more it favors him getting more money from Joe D.

If I were tellam, I'd script this to looks exactly like the grant hill orlando visit, which is how things are shaping up.

Tellam's job is to drive up the market price for ben wallace. That's exactly what he's doing, and the way to do that is to use scare tactics on Joe. I expected no less.

microwave: Good job.

And you're 100% right.

If we're getting back $3,000,000 in tax from the league, but only paying $1,000,000 then shouldn't the owner be happy?

That's the key for me - I wish you could do the math right now.

If possible could you do it tomorrow?
Maths done.

Cap-heads will get this. For everyone else I plan on writing it up (with escrow calculations) and posting later.

I used StoryTeller's salaries (http://www.storytellerscontracts.info/).

Based on last year with pre-determined and fixed Cap @ $49.5 million and Tax at $61.7 million (per Coon) teams 12 teams paid $169,302,702 in tax.

The 18 teams under the tax limit each received a 30th share of $5,643,423.40.

The remaining money (assuming the league did not take any for investment) was split equally 30 ways with all of the franchises.

That was $2,257,369.36.

So theoretically, teams under the tax limit (like the Piston) stood to make $7,900,792.76 in repayments. Teams over the tax limit only got the $2,257,369.36

If that held true this season, an owner could exceed the tax limit approx. $2.25 million and get reimbursed for the overage. Of course if they come in one dollar under the cap, they stand to walk away with a cool $7.9 million in found money.

So if Bill D. spends $61.6 iin salaries with a tax limit of $61.7, his actual salary costs are $53.7. And escrow could bring it even lower.

Intentional double post.

The above really brings into focus the amount of money to be made (saved) by staying under the tax limit, and how teams over the tax limit are truly spending head and shoulders more on their roster than the responsible (sic) owners.

Question about the over 36 clause...Does it only apply to max deals? The reason I ask is how can anyone offer a 5 year deal if Ben will be over 36.

Thanks for the math, microwave.

So we've got an billionaire owner that thinks it's not worth $8 mil/yr. to help win 1 maybe 2-3 additional championships.

The math clears that up nicely.

Do you think he'd recover that $8 mil if we won them?

Ben isn't worth $15-16 million. He just isn't. Re-signing him at that price won't help us win anything.

We also need additional pieces OTHER than ben wallace, and thats costs money too.

And yes, Obviously there's a no-tax edict from davidson, i mean he must talk personally to some of you guys, you seem to know exactly what he thinks....

The Detroit Pistons started their free agent negotiating period by offering Ben Wallace a 4 year, $48 million dollar contract, according to Michigan Live.

The deal, if Wallace accepts, would make him the highest-paid player in Pistons history.

via Michigan Live

So Philly wants to make an offer.


Courier Post Online - On the first day of free agent negotiations, Sixers GM Billy King was on the phone reaching out to the representative of at least one high-profile free agent: Detroit Pistons center Ben Wallace, according to the Courier Post Online.

According to ESPN.com, the Pistons are "reluctant" to offer Wallace, who turns 32 in September, anything more than a four-year deal, although it would start at between $11 and $12 million.

What could they offer us? Samuel Dalembert? Possibly AI? lol

Assuming Joe resumes his talks from Wed, and let's assume AI is on the radar. What do we do if a deal could be reached? I mean do we then have a cough cough deal ( I don't mean illegal) to trade seperately Rip for Dally? I mean assuming Detroit gave Ben 14.7 or more in a S&T Detoit could take back AI's 18.3 million. Rip for Dally works straight up.

Ben for AI with no secondary deal in place makes no sense.

I would do Ben for Dalembert and Igudola, not sure Philly would.

The Detroit Pistons started their free agent negotiating period by offering Ben Wallace a 4 year, $48 million dollar contract, according to Michigan Live.

The deal, if Wallace accepts, would make him the highest-paid player in Pistons history.

via Michigan Live

Link: http://www.mlive.com/pistons/stories/index.ssf?/base/sports-1/1151799013205110.xml&coll=1


Pistons offer Wallace 4-year, $48 million deal

Sunday, July 02, 2006

By A. Sherrod Blakely

AUBURN HILLS -- The Detroit Pistons got the ball rolling on negotiations with Ben Wallace on Saturday, offering the unrestricted free agent a four-year contract worth $48 million.

In presenting the proposed deal to Wallace's agent, Arn Tellum, Detroit offered Wallace a contract that would make him the highest-paid player in Pistons history.

Tellum was one of the few agents the Pistons spoke with on Saturday, the first day of free agency in the NBA. That's because the Pistons have to determine whether they can re-sign Wallace, a four-time All-Star, before they pursue other free agents.

Aware of the Pistons' priority regarding Wallace, agents didn't expect a call back from Detroit on Saturday.

Bill Duffy represents several of the more prominent free agents this summer, such as ex-Piston Mike James, Drew Gooden, Fred Jones, Michael Olowokandi (who played for Pistons coach Flip Saunders in Minnesota), and Speedy Claxton, who Joe Dumars, Detroit's president of basketball operations, is interested in.

"Joe's inundated with Ben Wallace right now," said Duffy, who also represents Pistons forward Tayshaun Prince. "That's where his focus is right now. We agents understand that."

Dumars' commitment to taking care of his own players, Duffy said, is among reasons other players are attracted to Detroit.

"That's one of his children, so you can understand why that's something Joe is really focusing in on right now," said Duffy, referring to Wallace. "He knows that part of the appeal to coming to Detroit is playing with Ben Wallace."

Still, William Phillips, who represents Bonzi Wells, said he was contacted by the Pistons regarding Wells.

A former Pistons draft pick, Wells had a great playoff series for Sacramento this spring. Although the Kings lost their first-round series in six games to the San Antonio Spurs, Wells was arguably the series' best player. The 6-foot-5 guard averaged 23.2 points and 12 rebounds per game while shooting 60.9 percent from the field in the series.

The Pistons may be willing to offer Wells a multi-year contract that would start at the mid-level exception, which should be about $5 million next season. However, because of Wells' strong postseason, other teams may be willing to pay him more than that.

Another player the Pistons may pursue later this summer as a backup point guard is ex-Piston Chucky Atkins. They also could re-sign Tony Delk or Lindsey Hunter.

what does dalembert make? he is overpaid but he actually makes sense as a replacement if ben wants to leave. i'd love a ben for dal and carney deal. (assuming iggy is untouchable)

but i don't get why ben would want to go to philly, unless they offer the max in a sign and trade. because any sign and trade sending him there leaves philly with even less talent. and to begin with they're not near as attractive as a situation as detroit or chicago, as far as their chances to win anything.

Dally makes just under 9 millon this season it goes up to 12 in 2010/11

he is overpaid but he actually makes sense as a replacement if ben wants to leave. i'd love a ben for dal and carney deal.
He is overpaid, cant play defence and has little to no offence... why would you love this deal?
At least if we keep Ben he is only overpaid with little to no offence...

Daly is ok at blocking shots and might be able to develop with a mentor like DD or something. I think he can turn into a Ben but without the heart.

lol at kstat. 'ben wallaces isnt worth 15 million. he just isnt".

if the pistons let ben walk away, theyre not getting out of the 2nd round, probably not the 1st. if you let ben walk away from the pistons due to 3 million a year (or even 3 million plus the 5 million in lux tax) your missing out on 2-3 rounds of playoff revenues. not to mention that going deep into the playoffs increases a team's marketability and value.

and i'll say it again. the pistons increase in worth $40+ million per year on top of the tens of millions bill makes in proffits from the team. hell, if he just puts his money in the bank at 2% interest (horrible), he'd get $70 million.

hes a greedy, greedy old fuck. if ben leaves, pistons might as well bring back the piston teal jerseys, and prepare for the notion of overpaying marginal talent to come here cuz no one else will. its a shame joe spent so many years rebuilding the organization's reputation and bill davidson is willing to scrap it all for a few bucks.

is mike james restricted or unrestricted FA?

scary time to be a Piston's fan....


Not to me. I can see positive possibilities in any scenario not involving tyson chandler.

Letting Ben go outright would sting a little, but it'd also give joe more flexibility to work some magic and get someone else, as well as ensure chauncey will stay a piston.

I'm not saying I want ben to go, but if the reality is he wants $15+ million, it's better than the alternative.

Sting a little? IF Ben leaves we're still at the cap and still only have the MLE. We wouldn't be able to replace him, period. That's more than a sting.

is mike james restricted or unrestricted FA?

UFA

is mike james restricted or unrestricted FA?

UFA
hmmm can we talk him into coming back at less than the lump of money he'll be offered? might be the most perfect backup PG fit for us in the league.

My whole thing with Ben is, I don't want to lose him for nothing but unless he modifies a few attitude related thing, I can see justification in trading him. To me if Ben comes back and becomes the highest paid player in team History, he needs to be quiet about his role, his offense and the coach.

word on WDFN is, philly is asking about a sign-and-trade for ben wallace....

of course, Iverson makes too much to be included ina deal for ben, and the sixers have nothing else we'd want outside of Igoudala, which leaves them $10 million short of matching salaries.

And no, Dalembert would be horrible.

If means taking Dalembert to get Iggy (to make salaries work) that is a shit load better than getting nothing for Benji.

He's a backup-calibur center making $50 million over the next 5 years. I'd rather have nothing.

Iggy would be great to have as a backup, yeah, but not at that price.

dalembert, rodney carney and iggy works for me!

but of course, why would philly give up all that talent? (iggy and carney mostly)

i personally don't understand their interest in him to begin with. it's not like they're that close to being a contender and in order to acquire him, they have to give up talent which they can not afford to lose. so they'd get ben but then have even less talent than they started with.....?

hey, i'd seriously look at it if they're that interested. dalembert, carney (who i LOVE) and maybe instead of iggy they throw in a couple of unprotected #1 picks?

then again, i guess picks wouldn't be included in a sign and trade...i don't know.

just thinking out loud, so don't jump on me if this sounds crazy. it probably will sound crazy to me too when i read this later.

Atlanta traded a couple picks with Diaw in the sign and trade for Joe Johnson.

But its very rare that this happens.

I would do Dalembert and Carney (They won't give us Iggy) for Ben if letting him walk to Chicago was the other option.

If it came down to chandler or dalembert, even I'd take chandler. He makes $2 million less than Sam and he's arguably a better player.

If it came down to chandler or dalembert, even I'd take chandler. He makes $2 million less than Sam and he's arguably a better player.

It's a toss up for me. Chandler is the better rebounder, but Sam has him offensively and in shot blocking. Plus Sam can hit a solid 70% of his Free Throws (Chandler's in the 50s).

Do you know where to find Chandler's exact contract info? It's not on hoopshype.

If it came down to chandler or dalembert, even I'd take chandler. He makes $2 million less than Sam and he's arguably a better player.

It's a toss up for me. Chandler is the better rebounder, but Sam has him offensively and in shot blocking. Plus Sam can hit a solid 70% of his Free Throws (Chandler's in the 50s).

Do you know where to find Chandler's exact contract info? It's not on hoopshype.

Looks like I had chandler a little mixed up.



Chandler's six-year guaranteed deal is believed to be worth about $64 million, terms similar to the contract that the Philadelphia 76ers recently agreed to with Samuel Dalembert, 24, whose statistics compare to those of Chandler, 22.

SO I guess the probably make about the same. I'd still rather have chandler, who I think has more room for growth.

SO I guess the probably make about the same. I'd still rather have chandler, who I think has more room for growth.

Yea, I'd lean towards Chandler as well. It might help that he was teammates with Tayshaun in High School. Maybe it would help him find a comfort zone. I know back in his 2nd year he was actually pretty competant offensively, so it must be a confidence thing. He had his worst offensive year of his career this year.

But the kicker is that we may be able to get something else out of the Sixers (one of their athletic swingmen). That could change my opinion.

Detroit would be renamed "East Compton"....

If it came down to chandler or dalembert, even I'd take chandler. He makes $2 million less than Sam and he's arguably a better player.

Dalembert is WAY better. He actually can play defense, and occassionally scores, plus he doesn't foul out every 5 minutes.

Chandler is a great rebounder, but everything else he is horrible at.

Dalembert can block, rebound, run the floor, and defend on occassion.

I'd take Dalembert, Carney, and (hopefully) change, if it looked like Ben was on the way out. Hell, it would also keep Philly above Orlando, IMO.

That would probably solve our 2/3 thing though, and if Bonzi wants to sign with us, I would look at other stuff(Green + picks?, picks + picks, stiff(Salmons?) + picks).

If we could get Claxton and a big in FA(Elson, Butler, some random stiff with the BAE), and get Dalembert and Carney, we could actually have a pretty good bench.

SO I guess the probably make about the same. I'd still rather have chandler, who I think has more room for growth.

Yea, I'd lean towards Chandler as well. It might help that he was teammates with Tayshaun in High School. Maybe it would help him find a comfort zone. I know back in his 2nd year he was actually pretty competant offensively, so it must be a confidence thing. He had his worst offensive year of his career this year.

But the kicker is that we may be able to get something else out of the Sixers (one of their athletic swingmen). That could change my opinion.

Chandler is the worse player, and has motivation concerns(sorry, but I don't want that with Sheed already here).

Give me the player that is still learning, and tries, over the one still sleeping, and doesn't care.

Dalembert is hardly a pitcure of motivation. The guy shows up every 5th day, and has hands of stone then even ben would laugh at.

Tyson Chandler ............... $9,000,000 05-06 add in the max raise of 10.5% and the contract for 06-07 is 9.94 million meaning after 06-07 Chandler is owed 44 million over 4 years.


http://www.dfw.net/%7Epatricia/misc/salaries06.txt

both have low basketball IQs and can't stay on the court for 30 min a game cause of foultrouble...thats what really worries me besides their contracts

The name I am pimping is Reggie Evans, regardless of Ben, Chandler, or Dalembert. I think we need an energy guy off the bench in terms of rebounding and defense. I say get him and trade DD and our 07 pick for a solid swing man if possible. I know we have needs at PG and SF but I don't think there is a guy who fits the bill either worth the MLE or willing to take the MLE.

What a weak-ass offer.

THey expect Ben to bolt for a measly $4 million?

My whole thing with Ben is, I don't want to lose him for nothing but unless he modifies a few attitude related thing, I can see justification in trading him. To me if Ben comes back and becomes the highest paid player in team History, he needs to be quiet about his role, his offense and the coach.

lol, you can expect to see alot of this in the paper, too, im guessing.

which is complete bs. explain ben's attitude problems.

his bitching about not getting involved in the offense? he's damn right he should have been involved. i dont care if he shoots 0.0% from the ft line, let him be a part of the offense. LB knew. flip doesnt. the pistons dont have the talent to play 4 on 5. and whats really maddening is that, given a chance, ben could help offensively.

his bitching that we dont play enough D? well, looks like he was right there, too.

disresepecting flip? comes with the territory. if flip cant control his players (looks like he cant), thats on him, not ben.

the guy with the attitude problem is sheed. give ben his money and get sheed the hell out of here, if thats how bill needs to pinch his pennies.

his bitching that we dont play enough D? well, looks like he was right there, too.

...and ben can start right with himself, since he was a total non-factor on that end in the playoffs.....

According to Mrs. Jahnke, the Bulls offered $52M over four years, or $13M per season when they were in town. If that is the case, and Detroit is offering $48M over four($12M/season), I think Big Ben will stay here. I'm surprised at the Bulls offer actually, I expected them to come harder than that - it basically giftwraps Ben's return to Detroit, as it shows that Detroit wasn't lowballing him with their offer.

Click here (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/14954410.htm) for the article that will appear in tomorrow's paper.

If that's true, I expect Dumars will match that based on his past history. He paid Sheed fair market value even though he was essentially bidding against himself.

his bitching that we dont play enough D? well, looks like he was right there, too.

...and ben can start right with himself, since he was a total non-factor on that end in the playoffs.....
thats fine and dandy. he never says "they" arent playing the right defense, he always said "we". I think wanted to do better defensively, but the fustration comes from us having no emphasis on defense and putting all the pressure on him to make up for it. Then at the end of the day when things go wrong, the offense was made the culprit, when playing good defense can nullify that on some nights.

so i always felt it was more about "if you want to see results emphasize defense and stop putting it all on me to make up for the lack of effort put into staying a defensive team"...Either way he is definately the main cog in our defense. I just hope we dont make him be the whole clock if he comes back and bitch about him not showing up. Ben can be a one man army on some nights. Not every night. and he never has been every night ever. its the team defense that made us what we are, and he was the important piece. but he wasnt the only thing required to get consistent defense.

Ben is apparantly "insulted" by the offer...

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060703/SPORTS0102/607030342/1127

Give me a break... Let's get a S&T done, Joe.

You never open a negioationl with your best offer, Ben is on an ego trip, I am sick of it. Ben is a limited player who doesn't want to admit it.

He's INSULTED by being the highest-paid player on the team?

Sorry Ben, get your money elsewhere to satisfy your gigantic ego. You're not worth $15 million a year. If someone else thinks you are, god bless.

I hope Ben is out negotiating the best sign-and-trade deal he can find right now.

Last part of the article got me thinking, do we have Bird Rights on LH? I mean if lH would leave to PHX couldn't we deal for James Jones.

I don't think it would really be worth it. We'd have no room for JJ.

I was just thinking if LH leaves JJ would be a suitable back up SF, plus if Ben leaves it only leaves us two exceptions to fill three needs. If we got a SF in a trade it helps a little.

BTW, Joe is not someone who changes his offer. He gives the offer he thinks is fair, end of discussion. That's how it went with Sheed and Rip. There was very little haggling over price.

Joe isn't going to play this game with Ben, and watch it drag out over a month while other good free agents get snapped up while he's waiting for ben to make up his mind. He's probably implementing his "plan B" right now.

BTW, Joe is not someone who changes his offer. He gives the offer he thinks if fair, end of discussion. That's how it went with Sheed and Rip. There was very little haggling over price.

Joe isn't going to play this game with Ben, and watch it drag out over a month while other good free agents get snapped up while he's waiting for ben to make up his mind. He's probably implementing his "plan B" right now.


I agree and for one think Plan B is needed and might not be bad.

Hopefully losing Ben doesn't kill our chances with free agents.

And I still don't like any of the other options at center. It's probably for the best though.

EDIT: One idea, bring in Kenny Adeleke with the minimum (unrestricted FA). It would almost be symbolic since he is so similar to Ben. Adeleke can do some serious rebounding / dirty work that we'll obviously need. We'll need a shot-blocker as well (Darko would have been nice).

Here's to hoping Delfino, Blalock, Max, and/or Amir have breakout years.

If Ben doesn't go to Chicago, all his remaining rumored possibilities (washington, NY, Philly) are all over the cap.

Meaning, Joe will have each of those teams by the balls, even if they ARE willing to pay mega-bucks for him.

It's looking like we'll get a good player out of this deal regardless.

Washington would be solid if we got Haywood and Butler. Butler would be a helluva addition, Haywood is solid and could be platooned with DD and a FA.

Washington would also be nice because it would make the Southeast a tougher division for the Heat.

Washington would be solid if we got Haywood and Butler. Butler would be a helluva addition, Haywood is solid and could be platooned with DD and a FA.

Washington would also be nice because it would make the Southeast a tougher division for the Heat.

They wouldn't give us that. I posted in the trades thread a deal bringing us Haywood and Antonio Daniels for Ben. That would probably be their limit. I also think that would workout better for us if we could get Bonzi. We'd have one hell of a deep team.

Washington would be solid if we got Haywood and Butler. Butler would be a helluva addition, Haywood is solid and could be platooned with DD and a FA.

Washington would also be nice because it would make the Southeast a tougher division for the Heat.

That'd be sweet. Butler woould be the 7th man over dice while haywood started. With the MLE, we could get a backup point.



They wouldn't give us that. I posted in the trades thread a deal bringing us Haywood and Antonio Daniels for Ben. That would probably be their limit. I also think that would workout better for us if we could get Bonzi. We'd have one hell of a deep team.

That would be alright too. Daniels is a combo guard who could back Billups up but he needs the right system. he did well in Seattle but did poor in Washington. Daniels depends on the 3 ball

BTW, Joe is not someone who changes his offer. He gives the offer he thinks is fair, end of discussion. That's how it went with Sheed and Rip. There was very little haggling over price.
Yes there was. Rasheed wanted $64 million, Dumars offered $48 million, and they split down the middle after a month.

Well, half the people on that list don't deserve to be there so I don't know if saying one way or the other is at all meaningful.

Well, half the people on that list don't deserve to be there so I don't if saying one way or the other is at all meaningful.
exactly

BTW, Joe is not someone who changes his offer. He gives the offer he thinks is fair, end of discussion. That's how it went with Sheed and Rip. There was very little haggling over price.
Yes there was. Rasheed wanted $64 million, Dumars offered $48 million, and they split down the middle after a month.
thanks for pointing that out Mxy. Ultimately Joe has negotiated before and acting as if he has never changed his offers is a little naive. EVERYONE has changed or adjusted their offers atleast couple times at some point. even the stingy GM's.

48 million over 4 years is more than fair. If he doesn't want it, fine, leave then.

I don't know if a sign and trade is possible though, I feel like Chicago is where he'd want to be.

Relax guys. We'll up the offer a little bit, get it to where Ben is no longer "insulted," and let things go from there. I think Ben's comments make it clear that it's not all about the money. I doubt he bolts to Chicago for a few extra million.

BTW, I'm not sure how legal this is, but can't we give Ben certain bonus incentives based on his performance? If so, that would help us to pay him more without putting is further over the cap than we already will be.

Incentives will be judged "likely" or "not likely"

Those judged "likely" count against the cap.

"Not likely" would be average 10ppg and hit your fucking FTs.

Seriously, all the shit he didn't do last season or EVER could/would be judged as "not likely"

word on the street is that Ben sold his house here and was looking in Chi town for a new house. My family is friends with a realastate dude, who knows Ben's agent.

Hope its not true.

Take it for what its worth.

where did ben say he was insulted? i never saw that.

but it does look like ben is ready to move on "we had a nice run there"...

you guys, i think, are missing the bigger point. the pistons have (had?) created a culture where players wanted to come to detroit, even at a paycut. pistons let ben walk away over a few million dollars, and its over. im wondering how many of the people that would let ben walk away remember the grant hill era, where our big men were the likes of don reid, theo ratliff, otis thorp, terry mills, grant long. and our spectacular FA acquisitions were grossley overpaying brian "bison dele" williams. cuz thats what happens if we short change ben.

despite what the popular opinion of today is, big men still dictate the entire game. there is not one realistic "plan b" that keeps us in contention next year, especially when ben can, and probably will, just walk to chicago and not even give us a sign and trade.

Yeah, but Diddy, the direction the league is headed in requires big men to actually put the damn ball in the basket once in a while. We know Ben can't and won't be able to do that, ever. That's just the way I feel.

i completely disagree. and find your post funny, only because most people are suddenly saying the exact opposite, that post play is obsolete.

we obviously can win with ben. i dont know if we can win with him being a non factor on offense, but we can win with him as a piston.

Yeah, but we aren't going to win shit if we use up all our available money re-signing ben.

We also aren't goign to win if ben keep whining like a little bitch that he doesnt get the ball enough.

and if he leaves we're left with nothing except the MLE.

and if he leaves we're left with nothing except the MLE.

Yep, either way we lose.

Only way for us to win is for him to stop being a greedy bitch and accept the measly 50 million, or get a decent sign and trade.

Truthfully, I dont think he's even worth $50 million in a league that punishes good defense and almost forces you to put 5 guys that can score on the floor at one time.

i completely disagree. and find your post funny, only because most people are suddenly saying the exact opposite, that post play is obsolete.



Now, I didn't say he had to score in the post. Just score.

If Ben Wallace does leave, expect hatchet jobs from bought and paid for beat writers to quickly follow, if they don't pre-empt the official announcement. Ben Wallace will be blamed for the play-off mess, firing LB, trading Milicic and the fall of the Roman Empire and be labelled a whiny egomanic diva who divided the lockerroom and threatened to eat Flip Saunders children and wipe his ass with Old Man Money Bags members only jacket.

It's Tom Wilsons' way of doing business. Truer words have never been spoken. On the payroll includes McCoskey, ASB and Rosenberg.



and if he leaves we're left with nothing except the MLE.
Yep, either way we lose.

Only way for us to win is for him to stop being a greedy bitch and accept the measly 50 million, or get a decent sign and trade.

Truthfully, I dont think he's even worth $50 million in a league that punishes good defense and almost forces you to put 5 guys that can score on the floor at one time. It takes a lot of effort to read your posts and not get really insulting. Partially because you don't make any sense, contradicting yourself in the same thread numerous times, and because you seem to think you can character assassinate someone for trying to negotiate a better wage for themselves.

If either way we lose, what the hell is your argument?

And if he's being greedy, what do you call the Pistons, who have marketed the hell out of him? Do you think Ben gets a cut from Ben Wallace jerseys? From Ben posters? From Ben Wallace T-shirts? Is there a commission on every Afro sold?

Dallas was in the Finals with DeSagana Diop starting at Center. With a no-jump shot having Devin Harris playing 2 guard. Miami started Udonis Haslem who is strictly a set shooter and won the title.

What about Cleveland? They were a couple times within 2 points of going to the ECF. Would you call Drew Gooden a scorer? How about Eric Snow? Maybe the profilic and multi-versatile Flip Murray. :rolleyes:

Get a clue.

Defense is not an ancient myth. Not yet atleast. You can't be all offense. And we can't trade in our defensive identity to please the NBA. There is no pleasing the NBa. We arent a high market area and winning titles is not what they'd "prefer" to see for us. This pro offense crap has been going on the last 2 seasons. But even last season we got as far as we did because of defense. Our offense will not be the driving force that pushes us to a title, ever. And its utterly useless w/o our defense. on the flip side we can still win playoff games when the offense looks shady with defense. This year was supposed to be about adding an offense to our defense. not about the offense itself.

If Ben Wallace does leave, expect hatchet jobs from bought and paid for beat writers to quickly follow, if they don't pre-empt the official announcement. Ben Wallace will be blamed for the play-off mess, firing LB, trading Milicic and the fall of the Roman Empire and be labelled a whiny egomanic diva who divided the lockerroom and threatened to eat Flip Saunders children and wipe his ass with Old Man Money Bags members only jacket.

It's Tom Wilsons' way of doing business. Truer words have never been spoken. On the payroll includes McCoskey, ASB and Rosenberg.



and if he leaves we're left with nothing except the MLE.
Yep, either way we lose.

Only way for us to win is for him to stop being a greedy bitch and accept the measly 50 million, or get a decent sign and trade.

Truthfully, I dont think he's even worth $50 million in a league that punishes good defense and almost forces you to put 5 guys that can score on the floor at one time. It takes a lot of effort to read your posts and not get really insulting. Partially because you don't make any sense, contradicting yourself in the same thread numerous times, and because you seem to think you can character assassinate someone for trying to negotiate a better wage for themselves.

If either way we lose, what the hell is your argument?

And if he's being greedy, what do you call the Pistons, who have marketed the hell out of him? Do you think Ben gets a cut from Ben Wallace jerseys? From Ben posters? From Ben Wallace T-shirts? Is there a commission on every Afro sold?

Dallas was in the Finals with DeSagana Diop starting at Center. With a no-jump shot having Devin Harris playing 2 guard. Miami started Udonis Haslem who is strictly a set shooter and won the title.

What about Cleveland? They were a couple times within 2 points of going to the ECF. Would you call Drew Gooden a scorer? How about Eric Snow? Maybe the profilic and multi-versatile Flip Murray. :rolleyes:

Get a clue.

good post.

it always amazes me how quickly people on here will turn on these guys.

remember when we fired rick carlisle? he was pretty popular before he was fired. now he's prick carlisle, and everyone hates him.

remember last summer when LB left, and how everyone just completely turned on LB--despite the fact that it was pretty obvious that both sides were at fault?

hell, even stackhouse got dirt thrown on him.

so i guess it shouldnt be surprising that people are turning on ben so fast.

go look at fps's post a few pages back, where he posted the article about ben's response to the pistons offer. fps said ben said "disrespected" in the post. ben never said that, not even close to what ben's quotes were in the article.

then you have guys like kstat calling ben greedy, saying he's sucking the franchise dry, and is a bad person for trying to negotiate a deal.

all the while, all these bs stories of what a problem ben was just keep coming out of the woodwork.

some of us (me) have been saying this would happen for a while. so im not surprised. just disapointed.

^look! Common sense!

I don't begrudge Ben for negotiating the best deal he can get.

However, to assume like the pistons owe his ass to comply is idiotic. He's a $7-9 million player that's going to sign somwehere for over $12 million.

I also have a very big problem with ben's attitude of late, and I don't know if his ego will allow him to be a team player anymore.

I don't begrudge Ben for negotiating the best deal he can get.

However, to assume like the pistons owe his ass to comply is idiotic. He's a $7-9 million player that's going to sign somwehere for over $12 million.

I also have a very big problem with ben's attitude of late, and I don't know if his ego will allow him to be a team player anymore.

Pretty much... To me it's a combination of things that have happend lately. From the tantrum in Orlando. To the complaining about touches. To the inconsistant play all year, and looking uninterested for games at a time. Then he goes and plays like absolute garbage in the playoffs, and is "dissapointed" in being the richest MFer in Pistons history despite being past his prime. I just don't like how any of it has played out.

Give the guy a good deal like 50/4 yrs (overpaying by a good margin), and let him pick. If you give Ben some stupid 70+ mil contract over 4 years, we're just gonna face an even bigger problem when Chauncey's eyes light up at Ben's paychecks. You just can't do that. If being the highest payed player on the team isn't enough, then he can go. It's not like other teams are throwing massive deals at him. Chicago is the only "rumored" deal and it's about 3 million more than the Pistons.

LOl @ 7 mil per year. Thats awesome. The DPOY is worth a touch above the MLE.

LOl @ 7 mil per year. Thats awesome. The DPOY is worth a touch above the MLE.

When the DPOY is the biggest offensive liability in the NBA, yes.

Well, everyone now knows you're stupid. Congrats.

Would you give Steve Nash the LLE? After all, he's the biggest defensive liaility in the league hands down.

Well, everyone now knows you're stupid. Congrats.


Wow, you really showed me...brilliant post.

Would you give Steve Nash the LLE? After all, he's the biggest defensive liaility in the league hands down.

I wasn't aware being MVP was equal from being DPOY.

And Steve Nash's defense is actually better than ben wallace's offense. It's sad, but true.

Everyone else here clearly saw it was better than yours.

Would you give Steve Nash the LLE? After all, he's the biggest defensive liaility in the league hands down.

I wasn't aware being MVP was equal from being DPOY.

And Steve Nash's defense is actually better than ben wallace's offense. It's sad, but true.
Do you have a "wrong to english" dictionary? You're confusing us.

You said "biggest O liability" I said "biggest D". You spend an equal time on the court on both sides.

Can we sign Melo for 3 mil?

Deke and Rodman were lucky to have deals.

You sir are so far ahead of common sense it has blinded me.

oh, i;'m pretty sure something has blinded you, I just don't think it's common sense.

LOl @ 7 mil per year. Thats awesome. The DPOY is worth a touch above the MLE.

When the DPOY is the biggest offensive liability in the NBA, yes.
I'm sorry Kstat thats a horrible response. We all know you liked to shoot jump shots in high school, You like high scoring games, and you hate players who dont score. But you're just flat out disrespecting the value of our defense. And you're giving the "new" NBA too much credit. defense can still be played very efficiently if you emphasize it. And no he's not the biggest offensive liability in the league. That goes to anyone who can't score or make up for it on defense. His defense result in our most game changing offense. You'd be naive to just call him a liability like he has no value to our offense.

Yep, defense can be played effectively in the NBA.

Which is why NOBODY was able to shut anybody down in the playoffs. Pistons, Spurs, Mavs, Bulls, whatever. They all got lit up for stretches.

Nobody in the NBA plays defense like they used to, and there's no reason to think they ever will again, until someone changes the rules back to where they used to be.

If Ben was on a non-winning team doing what he does, he's get 7-9 million at most. His star status is what's getting him these ridiculous offers.

$12 million is groassly overpaying for ben as it is.

oh, i;'m pretty sure something has blinded you, I just don't think it's common sense.


The man spunk you're spraying all over Bill D?

Yep, defense can be played effectively in the NBA.

Which is why NOBODY was able to shut anybody down in the playoffs. Pistons, Spurs, Mavs, Bulls, whatever. They all got lit up for stretches.


Funny a defensive minded and coached team won the title for the, well, every time.

Yep, defense can be played effectively in the NBA.

Which is why NOBODY was able to shut anybody down in the playoffs. Pistons, Spurs, Mavs, Bulls, whatever. They all got lit up for stretches.


Funny a defensive minded and coached team won the title for the, well, every time.


If you're calling miami heat a defensive-minded team, I have nothing left to say to you. That may be the dumbest thing I've head in months.

There's no point in arguing with someone that would say something that fucking dumb. Outside of Mourning, not one guy on that team played above-average defense.

Kstats right Riley has never pushed defense.

Yep, defense can be played effectively in the NBA.

Which is why NOBODY was able to shut anybody down in the playoffs. Pistons, Spurs, Mavs, Bulls, whatever. They all got lit up for stretches.
But overall detroit and the heat defended fairly well. 88 points a game isnt getting lit up every night. and miami holding team to 42 percent doesnt come across as bad defense to me.

Kstats right Riley has never pushed defense.
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F60F1FFF3F5A0C758DDDAC0894D1494D 81&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fR%2f Riley%2c%20Pat

Kstats right Riley has never pushed defense.


Great point Diddy. They were 2nd overall in the playoffs in D, but he has preconceived notions and undefendable takes, so we'll let him be. I feel guilty, like I'm arguing with The Kid.

Yep, defense can be played effectively in the NBA.

Which is why NOBODY was able to shut anybody down in the playoffs. Pistons, Spurs, Mavs, Bulls, whatever. They all got lit up for stretches.
But overall detroit and the heat defended fairly well. 88 points a game isnt getting lit up every night. and miami holding team to 42 percent doesnt come across as bad defense to me.


Point is, that's as good as any team can possibly play.

The problem is, ben dragged the offense down to a point that we couldnt even score 88. Starting with the Cavs, teams sagged their center all over the court, playing a box-and-1 zone, doubling whoever had the ball.

If he could even hit a FT, this wouldnt be a discussion. Guys like Diop, Dampier and Vaerejo can exist because if you leave them under the rim, they will draw a foul and make FTs.

Ben's a total liability. You can literally leave him under the rim wide open, and his small-ass hands take him 5 seconds to go up to dunk the ball, giving the other team time to hack him, which 4 out of 5 times is the same thing as a turnover.

Fuck, even Diop never gets hacked intentionally, and he's borderline-retarded. A player with no offensive skills who shoots %15 from the FT line is such an easy target, nobody bothers defending him nowdays.

The problem is, ben dragged the offense down to a point that we couldnt even score 88.
You're right, we scored 91.:rolleyes: [smilie=running.gif] Are we done with the spins?

Ben's a total liability. You can literally leave him under the rim wide open, and his small-ass hands take him 5 seconds to go up to dunk the ball, giving the other team time to hack him, which 4 out of 5 times is the same thing as a turnover.
that sounds like someone who has it in for Ben. Which has been your stance for awhile.

No, I have it in for a player that can't even make FTs at Shaq's level, and acts offended when he's offered 12 million.

But you're okay with a billionaire getting bitchy about paying a guy another $1-2 million a year.

No, I have it in for a player that can't even make FTs at Shaq's level, and acts offended when he's offered 12 million.
Thats irrelevent to you on many ocasions hating on ben wallace for most of the season. This just seems like the perfect scenario to vent how much you have a grudge against wallace w/o getting backlashed(so you hoped anyways)[smilie=paca.gif]

our offense was fine all year, and then game 3 in cleveland happened. that was when we turned off the gas and started playing at half speed. i guess you could somehow blame that entirely on ben, but i dont see how.

No, I have it in for a player that can't even make FTs at Shaq's level, and acts offended when he's offered 12 million.
Thats irrelevent to you on many ocasions hating on ben wallace for most of the season. This just seems like the perfect scenario to vent how much you have a grudge against wallace w/o getting backlashed(so you hoped anyways)[smilie=paca.gif]

He's just jealous of Ben. Kstat made 50% of his FT's in middle school and is angry that Ben's gets paid millions to do worse.

Bill Davidson's profit margin's are going up and Kstat is ecstatic.

No, I have it in for a player that can't even make FTs at Shaq's level, and acts offended when he's offered 12 million.
Thats irrelevent to you on many ocasions hating on ben wallace for most of the season. This just seems like the perfect scenario to vent how much you have a grudge against wallace w/o getting backlashed(so you hoped anyways)[smilie=paca.gif]

Like I give a fuck about backlash.

And no, it isn't irrelevant, because Ben is the ONLY player in the NBA besides shaq that gets fouled intentionally (with great success I might add) late in the game, and he makes shaq look like rick barry. That separates him from every other no-offense center in the league, because at least THEY are dangerous when they're standing wide open underneath the rim.

Ben's far too easy to exploit on the offensive end. It's becoming a bigger problem NOW, because the NBA is gearing everythign more and more towards offense.

FUCK!!!!

FUCKQ!!!!!!!

No, I have it in for a player that can't even make FTs at Shaq's level, and acts offended when he's offered 12 million.
Thats irrelevent to you on many ocasions hating on ben wallace for most of the season. This just seems like the perfect scenario to vent how much you have a grudge against wallace w/o getting backlashed(so you hoped anyways)[smilie=paca.gif]

Like I give a fuck about backlash.

And no, it isn't irrelevant, .
You must have cared if you're trying to hide that you already had it in for Ben from the jump. And yes your bitching about Wallace salary has less to do with wallace being greedy and more to do with you hate ben wallace for his offense. You said yourself that you you've never held value to defense since way back when you played school bball.

You're giving up some very narrow vision Kstat. I mean do you think Ben's defense has no signicicant high money value to our offense and our team? Heres a better question, is it replaceable?[smilie=reporter.gi:

well, fuck. i dont even know what to say. i dont want to see lets blow the fucker up... but lets blow this fucker up. sheed needs to go. rip, billups, hell even prince is possible.

next year's draft is great. we have to tank.

next year's FA class is great. we have to clear salary.

thats where we're at now.

Too bad we'll have no cap space.

It's quite possible to clear salary, if we're willing to dump good players for expirings and mid-2007 picks.

We already have the Orlando pick coming, so it's in our best interests to help another East team move past them.

Sheed + Dice to NY for Frye, Nate (or Collins) + Jalen works under the cap.

We also don't wanna deal with Billups next off-season so dealing him is probably a smart thing to do.

Mihm + McKie and the Lakers 2007 first works for Billups straight up.

2006-07 Roster:

Przybilla (full MLE - unfortunately this looks like it's happening)
Frye
Prince
Rip
Nate (LMMFAO)

Mihm
Maxiell
Jalen
Delfino
Hunter
Davis
Amir
Acker
Blalock
McKie (could be waived if we felt the need)

Expiring deals: Jalen, Mihm, McKie, Davis

Free Agents we might want to keep: Amir, Acker, Blalock (possibly)

2007 Draft picks: First Rounders: Orlando, LA Lakers, our own

Team Salary: $33,064,901*

* that's without counting Amir, Acker, Blalock and our 3 firsts.

Holding the rights to Amir, Acker and Blalock is extremely cheap and the picks would cost us less than $5,000,000.

At the most we'd have $40,000,000 in committed salary.

The expected salary cap? $54,000,000+

So, we'd have Max cap space to add to this group:

C: Przybilla
F: Frye/Maxiell
F: Prince
G: Hamilton/Delfino
G: Nate/Hunter

The picks could make a huge difference to that team, too.

With 3 picks we could draft a PG, SF and a C.

In free agency we could either save the money so we can extend our young guys down the road or spend it on an impact player.

BTW, I did this scenario in about 5 minutes, so don't go hating on me for the complete and utter destruction of the team.

thats a pretty good scenario, and along the lines of what im thinking.

i'd even move rip.

the next shaq is going to be going #1 next year. and all the top guys could be superstars.

Let's just trade the entire team and forefit 2007! AWESOME STRATEGY! Purposely losing games ALWAYS works!

2007 Pistons: Let's go in the tank!

Demolishing the team for draft picks never ever works. Period.

BTW, Nothing Oden does is anything like Shaq. He plays a lot like David RObinson, but nothing like Shaq.

Yeah, I don't get the tanking strategies at all. We're still going to be a very good team, maybe still elite, depending on what Joe can salvage from this offseason.

You really need to learn how to read Kstat:

b-diddy mentioned te great 2007 Draft and the 2007 free agent class.

WOD then correctly noted we had no cap space.

I then posted a scenario where we not only had cap space, but 3 first round picks and a team full of young talent.

And you consider a team with Prince, Rip, Frye, Nate, Delfino, Maxiell, Amir, Jalen, Mihm, Davis, Przybilla and Hunter = "forefiting the season"?

I'd call it rebuilding, but whatever.

Maybe we should just be content to be a middle of the road team? Is that what you want?

b-diddy: I didn't move Rip because he's a bargain IMO

And Kilo: I believe New York would make the playoffs with Sheed and Dice on the roster, and I think the Lakers will be in the playoffs as well.

So the pick from LA would likely be in the teens.

Orlando's would be Top 15 or Top 20 (depending on what you think)

And our own pick would be Top 15 (possibly top 10)

3 Top 20 picks in the 2007 Draft? Sweet!

And GD - learn to read.

If people are talking about rebuilding obviously I'm gonna come up with something.

Did I say I wanna tank? No!

I wouldn't mind a rebuilding job, but I don't wanna tank the season.

There is a big difference IMO.

scary time to be a Piston's fan....

[smilie=sad3.gif]

Let's just trade the entire team and forefit 2007! AWESOME STRATEGY! Purposely losing games ALWAYS works!

We agree.

Sincerely,
Greg Popovich
David Robinson
Tim Duncan

And GD - learn to read.

If people are talking about rebuilding obviously I'm gonna come up with something.

Did I say I wanna tank? No!

I wouldn't mind a rebuilding job, but I don't wanna tank the season.

There is a big difference IMO.

In most cases, I don't think there is much difference. If the Pistons take on that roster you mentioned with Mihm, they go from still having a chance at winning the central to the 3rd or 4th best team in the Central. Some would call a 42-43 win team a forfeit and some call it "rebuilding", but either way, it's not a team that's going to have much success today.

The entire scenario was done because people were discussing IF we should consider it.

I posted it for consideration, not as my off-season plan.

BTW, when I think of tanking I think of what Portland did last season and what the Spurs did to get Duncan. They allowed players to sit out, even when healthy. They played young guys in an effort to lose games.

When I think of rebuilding I think of trading for expiring contracts and young talent/picks and letting them play their asses off. All out, all the time. See what they can do.

A slight difference? Yes, IMO. We're not making veterans sit or telling them "don't try". We're getting young guys and saying "Let's make some noise"

That's my take on it. Maybe you guys see it differently, but that's cool.